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Today's topics:
* Are we in over our heads? - 3 messages, 2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/3b2ea903c0f23deb?hl=en
* Windex kills ants but leaves my walls blue (better idea?) - 1 messages, 1
author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/4f5c4a78f889237b?hl=en
* Spacing Trips to the Grocery Store? - 3 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/9e5316c7228e6cd4?hl=en
* Mortgage Calculator with Compound Interest Control - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/748a30e300112533?hl=en
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TOPIC: Are we in over our heads?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/3b2ea903c0f23deb?hl=en
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== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Jul 17 2008 7:29 pm
From: timeOday
Lou wrote:
> "OhioGuy" <none@none.net> wrote in message news:g5kuka$f7u$1@aioe.org...
>> I was just reading this article:
>>
>> http://finance.yahoo.com/banking-budgeting/article/105396/Five-Signs-That-You%27re-Living-Beyond-Your-Means
>>
>> Which talks about living beyond your means, and 5 signs that you are doing
>> so.
>>
>> I was wondering, does a house payment count as savings?
>
> "Savings" is money you put aside today, presumably so that you can spend it
> some time in the future. You can debate this forever - equity in a house is
> available for spending, if you take out a home equity loan or sell the
> place. But it isn't "savings" under any normal definition of that term.
>
> When you bought the place, you spent money you didn't have.
Exchanging $300K for something you could sell for $300K has no impact on
your net worth.
> In exchange you
> took out a loan and are now paying it back. Aside from the dollar amount
> and the period of time, it's no different than taking out a loan to buy a
> car, or a vacation, or anything else.
>
> Would you consider counting a car payment as savings?
Anything in which you have equity amounts to savings. If you buy a car
for cash, you are ahead of the game, you have equity. Granted, it's a
poor form of "savings" since you only get, say, $20K of equity for $26K
that you spend, and it depreciates rapidly. But really, it's each month
that you keep the car that you are "spending" the money. Just like leasing.
Spending the same money on a vacation gives you $0 equity, so it's
different.
Houses don't depreciate like cars (even lately), so that's even more
different. Making a house payment is "savings" to the extent it builds
equity. If you're early in a 30 year loan, hardly any of the payment
goes to the principal so it builds very little equity. Making extra
payments on your house instead of "saving" (putting it in the bank)
might be better or worse. You have to run the numbers, but even then
you won't know for sure since you can't know the future rate of
inflation or investment returns.
== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Jul 17 2008 7:54 pm
From: "Rod Speed"
Lou <lpogoda@verizon.net> wrote
> OhioGuy <none@none.net> wrote
>>> Would you consider counting a car payment as savings?
>> Hmm, not so much, because cars depreciate a lot, and because
>> they are always on the move, they tend to eventually die.
> Real estate doesn't always go up in value either,
Yes, but it usually does over the long haul unless you choose it badly.
And for that matter even traditional saving in a savings
account doesnt always retain its value either.
> and if you hold onto a car long enough,
> it goes up in value because it's an antique.
Nope, most of the mass market cars never do, they get scrapped instead.
>> I've never made a car payment, because we put money aside
>> regularly into value stock investments (about 5 stocks) to use for a
>> good used vehicle. (we currently have a 1969 Ford van, a 1994 Dodge
>> van, and a 1996 Buick Century) As such, we avoid paying interest to
>> others, and get it ourselves instead. In the meantime, we get dividends
>> on the stocks as well - usually 6%, plus anything that the stock itself
>> appreciates. (one of ours went up 48% in the past 17 months)
> Stocks don't always go up in value either, and dividends aren't guaranteed.
Yes, but thats true of traditional savings too.
> It's even possible to lose your entire investment if the issuing entity goes bankrupt.
And the bank that holds your savings can go bust too.
> I have no idea what cars of the vintage you own cost to buy
> or maintain. But one thing I'd look at is if the price of cars you're
> willing to buy is going up faster than your earnings on the stocks.
Its actually gone down here in recent times.
> If that's the case, you could be paying more in terms of
> hours worked to earn the money to save up beforehand
> than you would by taking out a loan and paying interest.
Yes, but that isnt common in most of the modern first world.
>> So no, a car payment would not be savings, but my alternative to a car
>> payment probably would be considered savings, because I can liquidate
>> the stock and have the money in my bank account in roughly 3 days.
> Stocks are considered investments.
They are also considered savings by anyone with a clue.
> Your money is at risk.
It is even with savings kept under the bed.
> Savings generally are not at risk.
Depends entirely on how they are held.
> Or at any rate the risk is much less
In fact you generally do better over the long haul on value with the
value of the house you live in than you do with traditional savings in
a savings account. In spades with savings held in cash under the bed.
> - if you put the money under the mattress,
> the house could burn down and you'd lose it.
And if put it in a safety deposit box, it may be covered by insurance in some
situations like when you get the amount in there counted and confirmed etc.
> And it's value would erode over the years due to inflation.
> Money put into an insured bank account is not at risk (up
> to $100,000 anyway) unless the entire federal government
> collapses completely, like the old Soviet Union did.
And plenty of other modern first world countrys dont have deposits insurance.
> One other long range consideration. My parents would
> have considered you thoughtful and thrifty, and would
> have approved of the way you manage your finances.
Any anyone with a clue realises that a mortgage is a form of savings.
One which most go to quite a bit of trouble to continue paying even
if their circumstances change in the short term too, so it has some
real advantages savings wise over just keeping it in cash in the bank.
> My mother died owning a quarter of a million bucks - it never did
> her any good. I wish they had splurged a little, now and then.
But it isnt always easy to work out how long you are going
to be around for and so when you can run the cash down etc.
== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Jul 17 2008 7:57 pm
From: "Rod Speed"
timeOday <timeOday-UNSPAM@theknack.net> wrote
> Lou wrote
>> OhioGuy <none@none.net> wrote
>>> I was just reading this article:
>>> Which talks about living beyond your means, and 5 signs that you are doing so.
>>> I was wondering, does a house payment count as savings?
>> "Savings" is money you put aside today, presumably so that
>> you can spend it some time in the future. You can debate
>> this forever - equity in a house is available for spending, if
>> you take out a home equity loan or sell the place. But it
>> isn't "savings" under any normal definition of that term.
>> When you bought the place, you spent money you didn't have.
> Exchanging $300K for something you could sell for $300K has no impact on your net worth.
But entering into a morgage does encourage you to save and
many keep paying off the mortgage even if that does require
a tightening of the belt in the short term, say between jobs etc.
>> In exchange you took out a loan and are now paying it back. Aside
>> from the dollar amount and the period of time, it's no different than
>> taking out a loan to buy a car, or a vacation, or anything else.
>> Would you consider counting a car payment as savings?
> Anything in which you have equity amounts to savings.
> If you buy a car for cash, you are ahead of the game,
> you have equity. Granted, it's a poor form of "savings"
> since you only get, say, $20K of equity for $26K that
> you spend, and it depreciates rapidly. But really, it's
> each month that you keep the car that you are
> "spending" the money. Just like leasing.
> Spending the same money on a vacation gives you $0 equity, so it's different.
> Houses don't depreciate like cars (even lately), so that's even more
> different. Making a house payment is "savings" to the extent it builds
> equity. If you're early in a 30 year loan, hardly any of the payment
> goes to the principal so it builds very little equity. Making extra
> payments on your house instead of "saving" (putting it in the bank)
> might be better or worse. You have to run the numbers, but even then
> you won't know for sure since you can't know the future rate of
> inflation or investment returns.
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TOPIC: Windex kills ants but leaves my walls blue (better idea?)
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/4f5c4a78f889237b?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Jul 17 2008 8:00 pm
From: "Nicik Name"
"Susan" <susanwilliams@aol.com> wrote in message
news:M3pfk.14923$mh5.9540@nlpi067.nbdc.sbc.com...
>I have an ant infestation and I spray windex to kill the swarms of tiny
> ants but it takes so much to kill ants that the carpets, walls, and grout
> turns blue from the dye in the commercial window cleaner.
>
> Do you know if I just buy ammonia and mix it at the correct percentage
> that
> it will still kill ants without staining my carpets blue?
>
> What percentage of ammonia would you use?
> Do you know HOW ammonia kills the ants?
>
> Is there a better way to kill an ant infestation?
RAID?
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TOPIC: Spacing Trips to the Grocery Store?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/9e5316c7228e6cd4?hl=en
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== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Jul 17 2008 7:08 pm
From: Ann
On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 11:40:55 +1000, FarmI wrote:
> "Ann" <nntpmail@epix.net> wrote in message
>> On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 17:20:19 +1000, FarmI wrote:
>>> "Ann" <nntpmail@epix.net> wrote in message
>>>> On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 09:52:58 +1000, FarmI wrote:
>>>
>>>>> ??? Do you mean that when an American uses the term "powdered milk"
>>>>> they mean the equivalent of powdered skim milk?
>>>>
>>>> Home users, yes. Except it's called Instant Nonfat Dry Milk.
>>>>
>>>>> If you do mean that, I'm even more mystified as to why anyone would
>>>>> bother
>>>>> to use the stuff.
>>>>
>>>> For adults at least, skim milk is healthier than milk with fat.
>>>
>>> Healthier????? On the basis of it's fat content? Seems like there is
>>> a need for a bit of education about relative fat levels in food if
>>> people think that.
>>
>> There is also quantity consumed to consider. Some people treat milk as a
>> beverage rather than as a food.
>
> True. And they need that education I mentioned.
>>
>>> here
>>>> are other sources of calcium and A&D like yogurt and cheese. And if
>>>> one has a yen for dairy fat, there is always butter and ice cream. <g>
>>>
>>> And cheese. That is very high fat.
>>
>> Again, it's the quantity consumed. And I'd rather spend my dairy fat
>> "ration" on the fat-equivalent amount of cheese than on whole milk.
>
> ???? To intake the equivalent amount of fat between cheese and even full
> cream milk, you would have to guzzle milk all day long.
How do you define "guzzle"? The USDA recommendation is three 8oz servings
of milk (or equivalent) per day = 24oz. From the National Dairy Council,
"... in Cheddar cheese the 3.2% fat (in milk) is increased to 32% (in
cheese)...". Which makes the arithmetic easy, 2.4oz of Cheddar cheese has
approx the same amount of fat as the RDA (24oz) of whole milk. Whole milk
mozzarella has about 2/3 and skim milk mozzarella about 1/2 the fat
content of Cheddar. I'd rather have pizza or a cheese steak than the milk.
Note: The USDA now recommends skim or low-fat milk.
== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Jul 17 2008 7:20 pm
From: Ann
On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 11:48:40 +1000, FarmI wrote:
> "h" <tmclone@searchmachine.com> wrote in message
>> "FarmI" <ask@itshall be given> wrote in message
>>> "enigma" <enigma@evil.net> wrote in message
>>>> "h" <tmclone@searchmachine.com> wrote in
>>>
>>>>> I was raised on skim milk and I love it. Because I low-carb I don't
>>>>> drink it much, but I would never, ever think of drinking whole milk
>>>>> or even 1%. It's gag-worthy and tastes like a glass of cream. Yuck.
>>>>> Also, no one ever "needs" to drink milk. The only milk you need is
>>>>> breast milk, and once you're weened, you're all set.
>>>>
>>>> giving skim milk to toddlers under age 3 is a poor choice. they need
>>>> the fat in whole milk (or olive oil, butter, red meat, etc) to
>>>> properly develop brain cells. i suspect the reason you like skim milk
>>>> is because you *were* raised on it. for those of us who were raised on
>>>> real milk it's horrid, faintly milky water... certainly not worth
>>>> wasting any money on.
>>>>
>>>>> In all of these discussions I realize how our food choices are so
>>>>> different from most Americans. We don't eat grains, we don't bake, we
>>>>> don't eat any fruit other than home-grown, and the only dairy
>>>>> products we use are eggs, cheese, and heavy cream for coffee. I only
>>>>> grocery shop ever 2 weeks or so.
>>>>
>>>> you drink only skim milk, yet you put heavy cream in your coffee?
>>>
>> You've obviously never lived in Europe if you find that odd.
>
> Britain is in Europe and I've lived in Britain and your habit was
> certainly not in vogue there. On the Continent when we travelled there,
> the most popular coffee was a short strong black.
This may be a ymmv thing; one of the few German phrases I remember in "mit
Schlag".
== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Jul 17 2008 7:44 pm
From: Ann
On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 11:56:13 +1000, FarmI wrote:
> "Ann" <nntpmail@epix.net> wrote in message
>> On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 01:12:26 -0400, h wrote:
>>> "Ann" <nntpmail@epix.net> wrote in message
>>>> On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 21:54:12 -0400, Jim Elbrecht wrote:
>>>>> "h" <tmclone@searchmachine.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> -snip-
>>>>>>The average American eats over 200 grams of carbs per day. Probably
>>>>>>explains why most of them are Orca fat.
>>>>>
>>>>> I just saw this on the news-
>>>>> http://www.abcnews.go.com/WN/story?id=5388954&page=1 A scientific
>>>>> look at low fat, low carb, and 'Mediterranean diets.
>>>>>
>>>>> Low carbs was the winner-
>>>>
>>>> Bu not for women. "Women fared best on the Mediterranean diet, losing
>>>> about 14 pounds compared with about 5 pounds on the low-carbohydrate
>>>> plan."
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Shrug. I don't low-carb to lose weight,
>>
>> And that's how I had interpreted what you had written, that it was your
>> preference ... not for weight loss.
>
> It may be her preference, but if she is doing it as she claims for "high
> energy" then she must have a sedentary lifestyle. Carbs are important to
> anyone who has an active lifestyle.
Umm. I think I'll continue to side-step being drawn into that argument.
<g>
>>> I low-carb to maintain high energy
>>> and good health.
==============================================================================
TOPIC: Mortgage Calculator with Compound Interest Control
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/748a30e300112533?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Jul 17 2008 8:08 pm
From: headware
On Jul 16, 10:32 am, Cheapo Groovo <c...@nospam.com> wrote:
> In article <274b5f1b-edcc-4989-8e81-89b5d6410493
> @m44g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>, david.k.l...@gmail.com says...> Does anybody know of an online mortgage calculator that allows you to
> > adjust how often the interest is compounded (e.g. daily, monthly,
> > etc.)?
>
> > Thanks,
> > Dave
>
> Should have one on these siteshttp://www.bloomberg.com/invest/calculators/index.htmlhttp://www.choosetosave.org/calculators/
Thanks for the help. I didn't find any on those sites, but I
eventually did find this one:
Dave
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