Sunday, February 24, 2008

25 new messages in 20 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

* CVs weekly deals - 2 messages, 2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/0df72b8eaaf1e569?hl=en
* Tips on frugal living and tourism in Paris - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/c381191c65c0b96c?hl=en
* Prophet Muhammad the last Messenger in the Bible - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/df0e154ac511d88a?hl=en
* Where Do You Shop For The BEST Value? - 2 messages, 2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/2f38214f19f930c2?hl=en
* very important for your life - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/1b23c4f64b3036b7?hl=en
* Armani,Burberry,Bulgari,Ferragamo,Versace,Glasses - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/4a633415c588636b?hl=en
* china wholesale nike air max 87 shoes, af1+jordan4 shoes, mauri shoes,
edhardy t-shirts on www.cheapforwholesale.com - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/f74dcfa840d5487f?hl=en
* sneakerforsale china discount gucci prada air max 90 95 ltd wholesale evisu
coogi jeans ugg boots - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/b65e73843c25754d?hl=en
* Where seniors find their love? - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/4b5223289af61b6f?hl=en
* Boiling Water-nuke or kettle? - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/d1b6d83a8392d12d?hl=en
* Frugal Find - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/c8d6b463b9b1ad9a?hl=en
* Find neighbors given a street address? - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/fb83b34a136040c2?hl=en
* hai - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/fe9bf22662c86ac4?hl=en
* HD-TV converter box rip-off .... - 4 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/4a9061c13abe5727?hl=en
* Compass Parenting - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/afeaec398266149b?hl=en
* china wholesale cheap adidas hogan nike air max 87 95 ltd puma dior shoes
UGG boots - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/63357e089bb51de9?hl=en
* How To Start An Online Business As An Affiliate - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/bf4fea354fe4d180?hl=en
* Follow the below link to make others look at you with envy!!! - 1 messages,
1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/e92d236f6e952d2d?hl=en
* best service low price accept PAYPAL online payment - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/eb5e11886f56d9c3?hl=en
* Red Light Cameras- Guilty even when innocent - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/33ec8ce41d959a6e?hl=en

==============================================================================
TOPIC: CVs weekly deals
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/0df72b8eaaf1e569?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 24 2008 2:41 pm
From: clams_casino


Patricia Martin Steward wrote:

>On Sun, 24 Feb 2008 04:03:17 -0800 (PST), Tree <info@budgetdial.com>
>wrote:
>
>
>
>>Check out CVS weekly deals
>>
>>
>
>No, thanks. I stopped going there when they instituted that stoopid
>loyalty card.
>
>
>
>
Ditto. Their secret handshake was the final straw for me.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 24 2008 6:17 pm
From: "Stormin Mormon"


I didn't like the rectal temperature check.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus

www.lds.org
.


"clams_casino" <PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote in message
news:Uomwj.9620$0M3.3227@newsfe17.lga...

Ditto. Their secret handshake was the final straw for me.



==============================================================================
TOPIC: Tips on frugal living and tourism in Paris
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/c381191c65c0b96c?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 24 2008 3:11 pm
From: Joe


http://firmitas.org/frugal-paris.html


==============================================================================
TOPIC: Prophet Muhammad the last Messenger in the Bible
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/df0e154ac511d88a?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 24 2008 3:13 pm
From: Joe


Mohammed was a pedophile who took an 8-year-old wife. He was a warlord
who started 82 wars against non-Muslims.
The Koran says in 9:29 that it's OK to tax non-believers and that
infidels must be attacked.


==============================================================================
TOPIC: Where Do You Shop For The BEST Value?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/2f38214f19f930c2?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 24 2008 3:26 pm
From: val189


Aw, c'mon. It depends on what I am wanting to buy. Too broad a topic.

I will say that I believe in buying a car close to home. Makes it a
lot less inconvenient if you need ot leave the car there and get a
ride or loaner car.

I also try to give my business to small independent owners, like mom
and pop restaurants. I shun Walmart for most purchases.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 24 2008 6:28 pm
From: Too_Many_Tools


On Feb 23, 5:08 am, Anthony Matonak
<anthony...@nothing.like.socal.rr.com> wrote:
> Too_Many_Tools wrote:
> > When it comes to buying something, where do you find the best value?
>
> I guess it depends a lot on the something, doesn't it?
> Ones selection is also going to be limited by things like
> location, time available to search, even knowledge.
>
> What are you looking to buy? Tools? Real Estate? Pets?
> Guns? Alcohol? Hookers? Music?
>
> There aren't many places that you'll find the best value
> for everything. :)
>
> Anthony

The question is meant to be vague....and to encourage discussion as to
where one finds good values.

So where do you like to shop to get GOOD VALUE for your money?

TMT


==============================================================================
TOPIC: very important for your life
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/1b23c4f64b3036b7?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 24 2008 4:05 pm
From: mondoray@yahoo.com


On Feb 24, 10:42 am, ahmed10...@gmail.com wrote:
> Hi there ...
>
> Thank you for reading this message .
>
> Did you here about Islam? I mean the real Islam...
> Do you have some questions in your religion and you don't have the
> answers for them?
> Do you know that you have to condemns in Islam?
>
> Ok... just visit these sites, read and download any thing you want
> for free and I wish that you will have a good time with the sites
> below:
>
> http://www.islamhouse.com
>
> http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?ln=eng
>
> http://www.islamtoday.net/english
>
> http://www.islam-guide.com/
>
> http://www.islamhouse.com/library/?page=91d97a73285c91e535eb5324d19c1609
>
> You can read about prophet Mohammad in this site:http://www.islamway.com/mohammad
> And:http://www.islamhouse.com/en/modules.php?name=Mybooks&doWhat=showdet&...
>
> Also you can see this wonderful site :http://www.islamawareness.net/Science/
>
> If you have other questions you can send them to :
> rabwahoff...@yahoo.com or rab...@www.com
>
> Or you can ask in this site:http://www.en.islamhouse.com/modules.php?name=Feedback
>
> And if you want to read more and more see these sites:
>
> http://www.ahmed-deedat.co.za/frameset.asp
>
> http://www.todayislam.com/
>
> http://www.beconvinced.com/
>
> http://www.thetruereligion.org/
>
> http://www.it-is-truth.org/
>
> http://www.islamunveiled.org/
>
> http://www.discoverislam.com/
>
> http://www.lordswrds.com/
>
> http://www.plaintruth.org/
>
> http://www.sultan.org/
>
> http://www.prophetmuhammed.org/
>
> http://www.religionofislam.com/english/index.htm
>
> http://lordswords.com/
> If you need to ask me about something just send it to my email:
> factis...@gmail.com
>
> ***Here I'm asking you to carefully analyze and look deeply at this
> religion; you shall discover new findings - even concerning yourself -
> and also that this religion is completely different from what is
> portrayed in the media and from what you have heard or read about it.
> So I leave you now with these links and hope you enjoy them....
> I wish that you will visit the above sites and take it seriously.
> Thank you for your time.

Please explain Suria 9:5 to me.


==============================================================================
TOPIC: Armani,Burberry,Bulgari,Ferragamo,Versace,Glasses
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/4a633415c588636b?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 24 2008 4:54 pm
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TOPIC: china wholesale nike air max 87 shoes, af1+jordan4 shoes, mauri shoes,
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http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/f74dcfa840d5487f?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
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TOPIC: sneakerforsale china discount gucci prada air max 90 95 ltd wholesale
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http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/b65e73843c25754d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Where seniors find their love?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/4b5223289af61b6f?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 24 2008 5:31 pm
From: "adamlin55@gmail.com"


I have a lot of boomer friends who are older singles and they're great
people. They're successful, happy and outgoing. They have great
careers, have lived interesting lives and always have lots to talk
about. But for whatever reason, they've found themselves single at
this time in their lives. It can be frustrating for anone to be alone
and I will quite often recommend to my friends that they try out one
of the great dating personals sites BoomerMingle.com that are out
there. They've worked for a lot of people, and there are many great
stories of people finding happiness this way.

My friend Catherine is an older woman who is one of the top chefs in
Vancouver. She's intelligent, well-spoken and beautiful. A few years
ago she found herself single after her partner of many years left her
for someone else. It left her quite heartbroken and she was devastated
for a long time. It was hard for her to reconcile with the fact that
after such a big investment in time, she was once again alone. It made
her somewhat bitter for a little while, but then, on a whim, she
signed up for an online dating service and after meeting a few older
singles she finally met a great guy that she's been with for two years
now. They're happy and in love and none of this would have happened if
she hadn't taken that chance and put herself out there again.
Certainly not an easy feat for anyone, but we all know that there can
be no reward unless we take some risks.

There are a lot of quality dating services out there that cater to all
different kinds of people and all sorts of interests. Whether you're
looking for a casual encounter or for that special someone, there's
sure to be a match for you. For my friends who are older singles, I'll
continue to encourage them to try out one of these services because,
as corny as it may sound, I believe we all deserve to be happy. Don't
you?


==============================================================================
TOPIC: Boiling Water-nuke or kettle?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/d1b6d83a8392d12d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 24 2008 6:16 pm
From: "Stormin Mormon"


The mic has a light, fan, and turntable. Now, which is more energy
efficient? I'd have no way to know. But I suspect the difference isn't very
much.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus

www.lds.org
.


"PaPaPeng" <PaPaPeng@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:eqrkr35d7e8kmfpnalmqndfiklt7coqlmn@4ax.com...


I drink a popular Oriental beverage that has instant coffee, sugar and
a whitener-thickener in a pack. I heat up a mug of hot water in the
microwave or I heat up two cups in a kettle, two cups because I need
to submerge the element. Somehow I get the feeling that the microwave
uses more energy/watts. Any idea if this is so?



==============================================================================
TOPIC: Frugal Find
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/c8d6b463b9b1ad9a?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 24 2008 6:19 pm
From: "Stormin Mormon"


You set a good example for us. Bravo!

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus

www.lds.org
.


"clams_casino" <PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote in message
news:PAHuj.1158$QC.395@newsfe20.lga...
Just discovered my local grocer sells their deli ends / extras in about
1-lb packages for 1.99 / lb in their packaged take-out section. Last
week I was able to get a package with ham, roast beef & genoa salami..
Today I found one with turkey, ham & american cheese.



==============================================================================
TOPIC: Find neighbors given a street address?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/fb83b34a136040c2?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 24 2008 6:18 pm
From: "Stormin Mormon"


You can also use www.google.com and www.switchboard.com

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus

www.lds.org
.


"Walter Cohen" <w_cohen@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:47bd7b1c$0$25045$607ed4bc@cv.net...
Found it, www.whitepages.com (duh) has that feature.
"Walter Cohen" <w_cohen@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:47bd79e8$0$25043$607ed4bc@cv.net...
> Hi.
> There used to be an address/person finder website (Anywho, etc) that when
> you entered the persons name and city/state and the correct person was
> found (along with their phone number) it would also give you the immediate
> houses/addresses surrounding the found address.
> Does anyone know of that search engine?
>
> Thanks.
> Walter



==============================================================================
TOPIC: hai
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/fe9bf22662c86ac4?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 24 2008 6:19 pm
From: "Stormin Mormon"


u breath stinks

Click this.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus

www.lds.org
.


<pushparaj62@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:db9b2d82-3840-4391-b89f-ae79dc2afcb2@n77g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
hai

do u like me .

****************************************



==============================================================================
TOPIC: HD-TV converter box rip-off ....
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/4a9061c13abe5727?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 24 2008 6:21 pm
From: "Stormin Mormon"


Thank you, Congress.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus

www.lds.org
.


"Tim May" <timcmay@removethis.got.net> wrote in message
news:190220082050201780%timcmay@removethis.got.net...

The irony is that people who stay at home and watch t.v. all day
usually have plasma t.v.s and LCDs that are better than what working
whites can afford.


--Tim May


== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 24 2008 6:22 pm
From: "Stormin Mormon"


Maybe he's right? At least about the big TV in minority houses on welfare.
What he's missing, is that congress and the local welfare people are giving
out our taxes to worthless people who refuse to work.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus

www.lds.org
.


"George Grapman" <sfgeorge@paccbell.net> wrote in message
news:tnOuj.6772$xq2.564@newssvr21.news.prodigy.net...

As Tim May infests yet another group I once again kill file him. Tim
blames all his unhappiness on minorities.


== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 24 2008 6:24 pm
From: "Stormin Mormon"


Like my Radio Shack $40 refund for my cell phone? Which check never arrived?

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus

www.lds.org
.


"Nicholas" <nobody@nowhere.net> wrote in message
news:r38or3htf22s8e40t6g0554ht9299o739j@4ax.com...
On Tue, 19 Feb 2008 21:28:52 -0800, nospam@noway.net (Ralph) wrote:

>I bought this Microsoft keyboard with a rebate. Carefully read the
>instructions and filled out the rebate form. Sent it in with a copy of
>the recept and top of box with the barcode (proof of purchase) like it
>said. Got a letter back from Microsoft saying I hadn't properly
>satisified all the conditions of the rebate without telling me what I
>did wrong or sending anything back. Total bullshit. They ripped me off.

I've had the same happen to me with *mail-in Rebates* from stores like
Radio Shack and so on. And this has happened to me since years ago.
IOW, if they say for example $700 for computer, minus $200 mail-in
Rebate, final price $500, be wary. Very wary.

Don't bet your life or your money you'll ever see that $200 check in
the mail, because as often as not, I've found these things to be a
SCAM.

Now if you're willing to pay $700 for the computer, go ahead and buy
it. But if you're budgeted for $500, and are depending on the mail-in
Rebate, even if you do everything exactly as they say, you're shooting
craps with dice. This is my anecdote.

Nick


== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 24 2008 6:23 pm
From: "Stormin Mormon"


It's part of the usenet tradition. You have to ANNOUNCE it everytime a
usenet poster no longer appears on one screen, in one house, for one person
sitting at one computer.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus

www.lds.org
.


"beebs" <dbbeeebs@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:8b59fd31-ba70-4e0d-a563-0329357debf1@q70g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
On Feb 19, 8:53 pm, George Grapman <sfgeo...@paccbell.net> wrote:

> As Tim May infests yet another group I once again kill
> file him. Tim blames all his unhappiness on minorities.

Why the announcement? Just killfile him. Do you
expect to get a medal?

beebs
anarchist



==============================================================================
TOPIC: Compass Parenting
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/afeaec398266149b?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 24 2008 6:31 pm
From: "Steve & Cathy"


Hi. Generate World Changers? Parents: We think it's possible and
www.compassparenting.org has just been started to help you give your
child the world! Though we have been doing Parenting Seminars for
years - we are just now stepping into the world of the internet. We
need your parenting thoughts so please write in our forum section, to
build a community of people who care about families. Parents helping
parents is what it is all about! Please share your thoughts, ideas,
and needs with us. Because . . . Kids are worth it!
Thanks,
Steve & Cathy


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== 1 of 1 ==
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 24 2008 10:24 pm
From: don@manx.misty.com (Don Klipstein)


In <f3e4949f-6c50-4340-ad75-11421929defd@v3g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,
sarge137 wrote in part, snipped by me to edit for space:

>We'd be on the same side of a debate on this issue. I also believe
>that owner of a motor vehicle is responsible for what is done with it,
>and if done by someone else they have a responsibility to give up the
>actor or face the consequences as if they did it personally.
>
>You are correct that these types of citations are infractions not
>violations, and don't result in points on your driving record so long
>they're paid. But, they do show up on your record, and will be
>revealed to anyone who does full a records check (as opposed to a
>points or violations check). So, just paying it and moving on is not
>necessarily the best course of action if you're truly the victim of a
>mistake, or some strange circumstance like they're trying to foist on
>us here.
>
>In my state you can get a photo violation for both running a stop
>light and speeding. In both cases it's an infraction and if paid on
>time doesn't result in points. If not, a summons is issued. If you
>fail to respond to that, and arrest warrant is issued. In both cases,
>if you weren't driving all you have to is go the clerk of the court in
>the jurisdiction where the violation occurred and give up the person
>who had your car. It then becomes their problem. In this case, all
>the guy would have to do is show the car was in the shop at the time.
>Now it's the shop owner's problem. He either pays it, and has it on
>his record, or he gives up the employee who did it. If he doesn't
>have enough control at his shop to tell that - too bad, so sad.
>
>I checked the Georgia statute and it has pretty much the same
>provisions for corrections of errors, and transfer of responsibility
>as the law in my state. Not surprising, because most state traffic
>laws are based on a federal uniform code. Generally a requirement to
>keep federal highway funds flowing into the state.
>
>I also learned that the Georgia law was only passed a few years ago,
>and there's a huge uproar about the practice. Knowing the left
>leaning liberal media as well as I do, and knowing their propensity to
>spin a story, I don't assume they reported all the facts of this
>case. Like a criminal defense attorney who doesn't want to know if
>his client is really guilty, it's just too easy for a reporter not to
>ask certain questions, or not look for certain people.
>
>Since the reporter did such an incomplete one sided story I can't know
>for sure, but my guess is:
>
>The owner was really out of town when all this happened.
>
>He had a friend or family member take the car to the shop and/or pick
>it up when it was ready.
>
>The car was turned in on the day of the violation AFTER the driver ran
>the red; or it was picked up BEFORE it happened.
>
>There's probably no time stamp on the work order so he figures he can
>weasel his wife/son/daughter/girlfriend/buddy out of it by just
>claiming he can't know who was in the car.
>
>Since they're still holding him to the fine, the court clearly ain't
>buying his story. I'm gonna bet the shop owner has already said he
>didn't have the car at the time. Since the lefty reporter didn't do a
>thorough job and interview the shop owner we'll never know. We're
>supposed to drink the kool aid and believe this poor guy is simply a
>victim of "big brother".
>
>Like I said, there's way more to the story than you see on the video.

I disagree with associating such misfortune with "left" political
orientation. For example, George Orwell's "1984" fits quite well with a
rightwing fascist state!

However, I do see that camera tickets have only monetary fines and no
points. This does motivate vehicle owners to not let irresponsible
drivers drive tgheir vehicles. In this case, where the violation
supposedly occurred when the car was in posession of a repair shop, I
would tell the shop owner why I am considering taking my business
elsewhere. If the fine is around $100, I would not lose half a day's
wages or billable time doing consulting work or use up vacation time
taking time off to go to small claims court over $100. I would merely
tell the shop owner why I am taking my business elsewhere, should this
story have have happened to me and be true. Since I like to buy older
used cars and have yet to own and drive anything less than 10 years old?

I think that a repair shop would value my business!

- Don Klipstein (don@misty.com)

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24 new messages in 14 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 24 2008 3:30 am
From: clams_casino


Dave wrote:

>
>
>>
>> One would be nuts to buy (and pickup) books, CDs, videos, etc off
>> Craigslist.
>
>
> Odd comment. Are you saying craigslist users are nuts? Hundreds of
> millions of users can't all be wrong.


If hundreds of millions are buying books, CDs & videos off Craigslist,
then YES, I'd say they are wrong / nuts. Most all can be mailed to
one's home for a fraction of the cost of driving to pick them up via
Craigslist (plus eBay has a significantly greater selection). On the
other hand, I'd like to see any reference to support your claim that
there are "hundreds of millions" of media product buyers on Craigslist.

Better yet, care to provide a reference that there are "hundreds of
millions" of buyers for all products on Craigslist. No wonder you
can't see the difference.

>
>> Similarly, one would generally be nuts to buy (and have sent)
>> furniture, machinery, electronics, etc off eBay.
>
>
> Yet it happens every day. Go figure.


Agreed, but generally speaking, that's where Craigslist has it's
advantages - items that are costly to ship and/or should be inspected
prior to purchase. It's hard to fathom anyone buying used furniture,
used electronics, etc off eBay, just as it's hard to fathom anyone
searching / buying for media products on Craigslist .

Then again, people still buy media products via retail when most are
available via eBay for a fraction of the cost, so I guess there are
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dollars on a book.


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From: Tree


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== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 24 2008 12:21 pm
From: Patricia Martin Steward


On Sun, 24 Feb 2008 04:03:17 -0800 (PST), Tree <info@budgetdial.com>
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--
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==============================================================================
TOPIC: very important for your life
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/1b23c4f64b3036b7?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 24 2008 7:42 am
From: ahmed10385@gmail.com


Hi there ...

Thank you for reading this message .

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Do you have some questions in your religion and you don't have the
answers for them?
Do you know that you have to condemns in Islam?

Ok... just visit these sites, read and download any thing you want
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below:

http://www.islamhouse.com


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http://www.islamway.com/mohammad
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If you need to ask me about something just send it to my email:
factislam@gmail.com

***Here I'm asking you to carefully analyze and look deeply at this
religion; you shall discover new findings - even concerning yourself -
and also that this religion is completely different from what is
portrayed in the media and from what you have heard or read about it.
So I leave you now with these links and hope you enjoy them....
I wish that you will visit the above sites and take it seriously.
Thank you for your time.


==============================================================================
TOPIC: HD-TV converter box rip-off ....
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/4a9061c13abe5727?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 8 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 24 2008 7:43 am
From: William Souden


Rod Speed wrote:
> Too_Many_Tools <too_many_tools@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On Feb 23, 1:08 pm, Tim May <timc...@removethis.got.net> wrote:
>>> In article
>>> <05731ee7-3ec9-477c-8500-4fe032058...@q33g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> sarge137 <rbooth9...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> On Feb 23, 8:23 am, EskWI...@spamblock.panix.com wrote:
>>>>> In misc.survivalism sarge137 <rbooth9...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>> You're right. Off the top of my head, I can't cite where I read
>>>>>> that digital signals can't be amplified;
>>>>> Google "amplify digital signal"
>>>> Got it - I know how to use Google. In fact my collegues say that if
>>>> I can't find it, it ain't out there.
>>>> I didn't find it on the web. I read in a periodical, or a book -
>>>> likely one the "for Dummies" series. But, Rod's a wingnut and I'm
>>>> not going to any trouble to prove anything to him. He'd either deny
>>>> it's there, or find some reason to dismiss it anyway.
>>> I don't know who you and Rod are, but digital signals can OF COURSE
>>> be amplified. The digital signals transmitted by remote spacecraft
>>> are of course amplified in various sophisticated ways. Even fiber
>>> optic lines often have repeaters, which are essentially "detect,
>>> regenerate" amplifiers of digital (high, low, 1, 0, etc.) signals.
>>>
>>> The very LNB/amplifier in a satellite dish is an amplifier/detector
>>> of a "digital signal" (though until the signal is "decided on" in
>>> terms of 1s and 0s, it's basically analog, which is why bigger
>>> dishes give a better signal, and are basically "amplifying" the
>>> signal via focussing the raw RF onto an element which further
>>> processes it).
>>>
>>> As for Google, I found numerous discussions in a few seconds' worth
>>> of searching. I won't even bother to clip-n-paste various URLs here.
>>>
>>> As for what you may have read in a "Dummies" book, my speculation is
>>> that you read something along the lines about how when a signal has
>>> already been detected/converted/processed and is a clean digital data
>>> stream, that further "amplificiation" is usually unnecessary. This
>>> issue often comes up in high-end audio, with various snake oil
>>> salesmen trying to sell "digital amplifiers" for what are already
>>> signals which are already clean (meaning, easily distinguishable).
>>> (Timing jitter may or may not be an issue worth considering, but
>>> this is not the same as amplification.)
>>>
>>> Error correction is also common in digital transmissions, so even
>>> some incorrectly discriminated bits, or bit flips, can be
>>> corrected-way. If too many errors occur, not so.
>>>
>>> I have both HD via a satellite (DirectTV) and OTA (Terk antenna on my
>>> roof). Both signals are _usually_ clean, with no break-up or
>>> "blocking." Sometimes with heavy rain one or both of these feeds may
>>> break-up into chunks, that is, uncorrectable blocks of signal.
>>> (There's probably some common term for this, but I don't follow
>>> things that closely.)
>>>
>>> In extreme cases, my receiver or my t.v. (when fed directly from the
>>> Terk roof antenna) will go blank, a design feature. Sometimes the
>>> satellite receiver says "Searching for satellite signal."
>>>
>>> A bigger satellite antenna might help (not offered by my vendor, but
>>> physics is physics), a bigger roof antenna might help. An inline
>>> amplifier between the dish or antenna and receiver might help.
>>> Because the signals are "at the edge" of proper detection (that is,
>>> without too many errors), so amplification might help.
>>>
>>> A long signal run may need inline amplifiers. As the previous poster
>>> said, use Google. I would check antenna size first.
>>>
>>> (And there are some obvious simple experiments to try before spending
>>> money on inline amplifiers.)
>
>> Wanna bet that the big problem with the digital changeover will be
>> with reception problems and not with the actual analog/digital
>> conversion via converter boxes?
>>
>> MANY people view analog television using marginal reception of the signals....
>
> And many of those find that digital works fine.
>
>> I will wager that we will be seeing broadcasters uping the signal strengths.
>
> Bet they wont.
>
>
I actually agree with Rod. There is that little detail regarding the
FCC. In addition, only about 12 percent of households get over the air tv.

== 2 of 8 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 24 2008 8:48 am
From: sarge137


On Feb 23, 11:40 am, EskWI...@spamblock.panix.com wrote:
> In misc.survivalism sarge137 <rbooth9...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > On Feb 23, 8:23 am, EskWI...@spamblock.panix.com wrote:
> > > In misc.survivalism sarge137 <rbooth9...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > You're right. Off the top of my head, I can't cite where I read that
> > > > digital signals can't be amplified;
>
> > > Google "amplify digital signal"
> > Got it - I know how to use Google. In fact my collegues say that if I
> > can't find it, it ain't out there.
>
> Then how did you miss the hundreds of webpages which indicate that digital
> signals are routinely amplified?

Didn't miss any of those pages, because that's not where I originally
read it, therefore not where I'd look for it, if I were so inclined.
>
> > I didn't find it on the web. I read in a periodical, or a book -
> > likely one the "for Dummies" series.
>
> Or maybe you just misremembered your forgotten source? We're talking
> simple facts here. And in fact, all around you, right now, in any
> direction you could point, digital signals are being amplified.

Or maybe I misinterpreted what I read (see Tim May's HELPFUL post, and
HDTV for Dummies, 2nd Edition, Chapter 8). A phenomenon known as a
"simple mistake".

>> But, Rod's a wingnut and I'm not
> > going to any trouble to prove anything to him. He'd either deny it's
> > there, or find some reason to dismiss it anyway.
>
> Or maybe you are just simply wrong? This is a matter of fact.

No! Not possible! I've never ever been wrong about anything in my
entire life, and never will be.

(NOTE: Please read with sarcastic, self-deprecating tone in mind. My
intent is a little subtle and I wouldn't want to ruffle any more
feathers)

> I remember talking with an engineer around 1984 about the move to fiber in
> telecom systems. I asked him how long the transmission line could be.
> He told me that with periodic amplification, the length was infinite.
>
> This is nothing new. Nor esoteric.
>
> --
> The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so
> certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.
> -- Bertrand Russel

== 3 of 8 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 24 2008 8:57 am
From: sarge137


On Feb 23, 12:08 pm, Tim May <timc...@removethis.got.net> wrote:
> In article
> <05731ee7-3ec9-477c-8500-4fe032058...@q33g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
>
>
>
>
>
> sarge137 <rbooth9...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > On Feb 23, 8:23 am, EskWI...@spamblock.panix.com wrote:
> > > In misc.survivalism sarge137 <rbooth9...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > You're right. Off the top of my head, I can't cite where I read that
> > > > digital signals can't be amplified;
>
> > > Google "amplify digital signal"
>
> > Got it - I know how to use Google. In fact my collegues say that if I
> > can't find it, it ain't out there.
>
> > I didn't find it on the web. I read in a periodical, or a book -
> > likely one the "for Dummies" series. But, Rod's a wingnut and I'm not
> > going to any trouble to prove anything to him. He'd either deny it's
> > there, or find some reason to dismiss it anyway.
>
> I don't know who you and Rod are, but digital signals can OF COURSE be
> amplified. The digital signals transmitted by remote spacecraft are of
> course amplified in various sophisticated ways. Even fiber optic lines
> often have repeaters, which are essentially "detect, regenerate"
> amplifiers of digital (high, low, 1, 0, etc.) signals.
>
> The very LNB/amplifier in a satellite dish is an amplifier/detector of
> a "digital signal" (though until the signal is "decided on" in terms of
> 1s and 0s, it's basically analog, which is why bigger dishes give a
> better signal, and are basically "amplifying" the signal via focussing
> the raw RF onto an element which further processes it).
>
> As for Google, I found numerous discussions in a few seconds' worth of
> searching. I won't even bother to clip-n-paste various URLs here.
>
> As for what you may have read in a "Dummies" book, my speculation is
> that you read something along the lines about how when a signal has
> already been detected/converted/processed and is a clean digital data
> stream, that further "amplificiation" is usually unnecessary. This
> issue often comes up in high-end audio, with various snake oil salesmen
> trying to sell "digital amplifiers" for what are already signals which
> are already clean (meaning, easily distinguishable). (Timing jitter may
> or may not be an issue worth considering, but this is not the same as
> amplification.)
>
> Error correction is also common in digital transmissions, so even some
> incorrectly discriminated bits, or bit flips, can be corrected-way. If
> too many errors occur, not so.
>
> I have both HD via a satellite (DirectTV) and OTA (Terk antenna on my
> roof). Both signals are _usually_ clean, with no break-up or
> "blocking." Sometimes with heavy rain one or both of these feeds may
> break-up into chunks, that is, uncorrectable blocks of signal. (There's
> probably some common term for this, but I don't follow things that
> closely.)
>
> In extreme cases, my receiver or my t.v. (when fed directly from the
> Terk roof antenna) will go blank, a design feature. Sometimes the
> satellite receiver says "Searching for satellite signal."
>
> A bigger satellite antenna might help (not offered by my vendor, but
> physics is physics), a bigger roof antenna might help. An inline
> amplifier between the dish or antenna and receiver might help. Because
> the signals are "at the edge" of proper detection (that is, without too
> many errors), so amplification might help.
>
> A long signal run may need inline amplifiers. As the previous poster
> said, use Google. I would check antenna size first.
>
> (And there are some obvious simple experiments to try before spending
> money on inline amplifiers.)
>
> --Tim May- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

You're absolutely correct about what I misinterpreted. (HDTV for
Dummies, 2nd Edition, Chapter 8)

Thanks for taking the time to explain things, and not just treat my
post like it was made by some idiot who can't read or understand.

Sarge

== 4 of 8 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 24 2008 9:31 am
From: Winston_Smith


On Sat, 23 Feb 2008 21:54:45 -0800 (PST), Too_Many_Tools
<too_many_tools@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Wanna bet that the big problem with the digital changeover will be
>with reception problems and not with the actual analog/digital
>conversion via converter boxes?
>
>MANY people view analog television using marginal reception of the
>signals....
>
>I will wager that we will be seeing broadcasters uping the signal
>strengths.
>
>TMT

From what I've read, digital is much more tolerant of many forms of
loss and distortion up to a point. Above that point, digital wins.
Below that point you lose everything in one shot. No such thing as a
kinda viewable but mostly snowy picture. All or nothing.

== 5 of 8 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 24 2008 9:41 am
From: Too_Many_Tools


On Feb 24, 11:31 am, Winston_Smith <not_r...@bogus.net> wrote:
> On Sat, 23 Feb 2008 21:54:45 -0800 (PST), Too_Many_Tools
>
> <too_many_to...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >Wanna bet that the big problem with the digital changeover will be
> >with reception problems and not with the actual analog/digital
> >conversion via converter boxes?
>
> >MANY people view analog television using marginal reception of the
> >signals....
>
> >I will wager that we will be seeing broadcasters uping the signal
> >strengths.
>
> >TMT
>
> From what I've read, digital is much more tolerant of many forms of
> loss and distortion up to a point. Above that point, digital wins.
> Below that point you lose everything in one shot. No such thing as a
> kinda viewable but mostly snowy picture. All or nothing.

Agreed...and many people have multiple televisions in locations around
the house working off "rabbit ear" antennas...not a optimal receiving
setup by any means.

I suspect that once the conversion occurs, many people will not
receive television broadcasts.

And the advertisers will not want to loose touch with that customer
base.

Note that the government coupons apply to converter boxes...not new
digital antennas.

TMT

== 6 of 8 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 24 2008 10:53 am
From: Tim May


In article
<11a1842b-68eb-4f61-80f5-6a77badf21fb@n77g2000hse.googlegroups.com>,
sarge137 <rbooth9858@yahoo.com> wrote:

> You're absolutely correct about what I misinterpreted. (HDTV for
> Dummies, 2nd Edition, Chapter 8)
>
> Thanks for taking the time to explain things, and not just treat my
> post like it was made by some idiot who can't read or understand.
>

Your welcome.

Something else that I meant to mention is that the whole term "digital
signal" is sometimes misleading. When digital bit streams are carried
over wires or cables they are ANALOG signals, that is, they are voltage
levels. (Bit streams over fiber optic lines are bunches of photons, but
the principle I'm about to describe still basically applies.)

These voltage levels typically start out as being very "clean," with a
very clear separation between "highs" and "lows."

But with distance through a wire or cable, or when transmitted through
the air as HDTV signals, the separation will lessen by some amount.
This is why "repeaters" (amplifiers) may be used for long signal runs.
(The HD signal will ride on carrier waves, but the point is the same,
that distance affects the amplitudes of the analog levels. Which is why
bigger antennas may be needed for more distant stations. The website
for picking antenna sizes, mentioned here already, has details for
particular zipcodes.)

A digital signal isn't a digital signal until it's been detected as
such....until then, even digital signals are just analog levels, albeit
looking more like pulse trains than like sines and cosines and whatnot.

This is why a large enough satellite dish or HD antenna is needed: to
get the "signal strength" up enough to where the rest of the circuitry
can properly digitize the incoming analog signal.

All of these elements act as amplifiers. (And error correction,
generally of the "fire code" kind, similar to what's been used for
decades with CDs, is used so that the digital signal is corrected back
to the original even if there are a lot of individual bit errors in the
stream.)

I'm not an HDTV engineer, but the physics is pretty straightforward.

--Tim May

== 7 of 8 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 24 2008 11:35 am
From: Tim May


In article <39a3s3d5tqdk1p9255i7a8jrgv6i93ujt8@4ax.com>, Winston_Smith
<not_real@bogus.net> wrote:

>
> From what I've read, digital is much more tolerant of many forms of
> loss and distortion up to a point. Above that point, digital wins.
> Below that point you lose everything in one shot. No such thing as a
> kinda viewable but mostly snowy picture. All or nothing.

My experience is with two types of HDTV: OTA and via my DirecTV
satellite system. I'll discuss my OTA experience.

I live in the area near the Monterey Bay. I can "see" (literally) the
mountains south of me where I know the main local transmitters are
located. (Fremont Peak) However, it's about 30 miles away. None of the
Bay Area transmitters, even the ones near San Jose, are within a
feasible capture range for me.

Anyone trying to figure out there particular situation with respect to
HDTV should figure out where they are with respect to transmitters,
using a site like www.antennaweb.org, etc.

When local broadcasters first starting "turning on" their HDTV
services, I first tried some old rabbit ears (circa mid-90s, so some
circuitry inside the antenna, not just two extendable elements) to see
what local OTA stations I could get. One station came in to my
HDTV-ready t.v. (a Sharp 27-inch LCD in my bedroom...I didn't try
anything with my 60-inch Sony SXRD LCD until later). The "reception"
was definitely NOT "all or nothing."

Rather, the reception was extremely "blocky," with chunks of the screen
perfectly rendered (as near as I could tell) and chunks that were
missing or scrambled or otherwise obviously not perfectly rendered. As
the antenna was moved around, this amount of blockiness varied.

(I already knew this was not a viable antenna solution, but I wanted to
see what my HDTV-set in my upstairs bedroom would do with the new HD
broadcasts just starting up then.)

Anyone with an existing antenna mast, a familiar Yagi-type array from
the old days, may find that it picks up the HDTV quite well, with no
special Terk-type antenna needed. (However, many of these have fallen
into disrepair, gotten damaged or disconnected. Those going to OTA
after years of cable or satellite may need new rooftop antennas.)

FWIW, friends of mine in a much denser suburban area--the Santa Clara
Valley, California--get dozens of HDTV broadcasts with just plain old
rabbit ears sitting near their sets. A couple of them have added
rooftop antennas to ensure more consistent reception, even during rain.

(My hunch is that a lot of folks will just do this, then will complain
that _some_ of the broadcasts are "bad." The solution will of course
not be that those broadcasters raise their power levels. I expect a
year from now there will be lots of articles in the popular press about
the "problems" people are having and "demands" that the problem be
fixed.)

Back to my situation. I picked a reasonable-sized Terk antenna, for
about $110 at Circuit City. (www.antennaweb.org had recommended sizes
for my area)

This gave better reception (less blockiness) when in my bedroom. Things
got better when I moved it to a room with a better "view" of the
transmitters (fewer internal house materials, a glass window).

Again, not "all or nothing." Rather, _parts_ of each digital frame were
"all" and parts were "nothing." When the error rate was too high,
sometimes the frame just "froze." (This is obviously part of the how my
particular receiver, the t.v. set, was designed to handle very noisy
signals...other designs may do things differently.)

I mounted the Terk on my roof, at the highest point, and directly
facing the mountain I know most of the local transmitters were on (or
on very nearby sites). I'm about 30 miles from these transmitters.

The reception on my 60-inch t.v. and on my upstairs 27-inch t.v. was
excellent, except for occasionally "block noise." This happens during
heavy rainstorms, sometimes at random times.

I get HDTV signals for CBS, Fox, PBS, and NBC. No ABC transmitters in
my area (the Monterey/Santa Cruz/Salinas market). Some of these
transmitters have additional channels associated with them, so I get
the CW and one or two others I haven't bothered remembering.

I also get some HD through my satellite, and will be able to get many
more channels if I call up DirecTV and have them swap out my current
dish for a 5-LNB dish. (I understand they do this for free...I just
haven't bothered to call them.)

What's really interesting is that my digital video recorder (DirecTV,
with a 200 GB disk, good for about 35 hours of HD-quality recording or
about 200 hours of standard-quallity recording) accepts inputs from an
OTA antenna and RECOGNIZES them in the onscreen program guide and can
STORE them just as if they were from the satellite!

So when the Superbowl was broadcast in HD on my Fox station, I was able
to do all the usual pause, back up, freeze, save, etc. things I can
normally do.

This integration of DVRs with OTA broadcasts will make a huge
difference for a lot of people. I expect people to buy DVRs just for
OTA broadcasts, even if they don't have cable or satellite.

In conclusion, HD still has noise problems--always will, for some
users. More so at long ranges and with rain or snow attenuating the
signal. With a proper antenna, these are minor. In urban areas, closer
to the transmitters, probably no noise problems.


--Tim May

== 8 of 8 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 24 2008 1:32 pm
From: Tim May


In article <240220081053226572%timcmay@removethis.got.net>, Tim May
<timcmay@removethis.got.net> wrote:

> In article
> <11a1842b-68eb-4f61-80f5-6a77badf21fb@n77g2000hse.googlegroups.com>,
> sarge137 <rbooth9858@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > You're absolutely correct about what I misinterpreted. (HDTV for
> > Dummies, 2nd Edition, Chapter 8)
> >
> > Thanks for taking the time to explain things, and not just treat my
> > post like it was made by some idiot who can't read or understand.
> >
>
> Your welcome.

Phonetic typo. I meant "You're welcome."

--Tim May


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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 24 2008 11:51 am
From: "mezdek1@gmail.com"


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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 24 2008 2:39 pm
From: Joe


Some of this applies to other cities:
http://home.comcast.net/~plutarch/frugal-philly.html

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