Frugal Living: Apr 18, 2010

Sunday, April 18, 2010

misc.consumers.frugal-living - 24 new messages in 11 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: ┢┦→ Wholesale Brand AAA true leather handbags & purse - Chanel.Gucci.D&
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http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/d99fc6cffd110c60?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Apr 18 2010 1:20 am
From: ckedsdfs

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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Doctor getting kickbacks?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/faff268312f0b359?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Apr 18 2010 4:55 am
From: MAS

On 4/18/2010 12:20 AM, Gordon Burditt wrote:
> I expect government health care to do just this sort of thing,
> and I expect that it's already being done in some situations, like
> not giving a 93-year-old man a heart transplant.
>

That's a generous age estimate. Around my area, you won't be considered
for a heart transplant if you're over 65, unless you're somebody famous.

Marsha

==============================================================================
TOPIC: What was the point of Jesus riding an ass, looking like an ass?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/f875873bd78921b8?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Apr 18 2010 6:16 am
From: "TibetanMonkey, the-Monkey-with-the-Bag-of-Shit"

On Apr 17, 11:22 pm, "454" <4...@1.com> wrote:
> Don Klipstein wrote:
> > In article <82vemhFu4...@mid.individual.net>, 4...@1.com wrote:
> >> Don Klipstein wrote:
> >>> In article <hq9gdq$l0...@news.eternal-september.org>, Tom Sherman
> >>> °_° wrote:
> >>>> On 4/14/2010 12:18 AM, Don Klipstein wrote:
>
> >>> <In short, expressing strong skepticism of dinosaurs existing and
> >>> being alive much more recently than 63-65 million years ago>
>
> >>>> Some dinosaurs with feathers survived, and their descendants are
> >>>> still with us.
>
> >>> Can you cite what dinosaurs survived to be still with us, along
> >>> with citing that such animals are considered dinosaurs as opposed
> >>> to some sort of birds or a subclass/super-order/order of mammals
> >>> (monotremes)?
>
> >>> (It appears to me that dinosaurs were either a bird-ish-like
> >>> subclass of reptiles, or otherwise achieving a "class" of its own in
> >>> the chordate phylum of the animal kingdom.)
>
> >>> (Wikipedia does mention that there is one "clade" of animals that
> >>> evolved directly from dinosaurs, from specifically "theropod"
> >>> dinosaurs, and that is the "class" of birds.)
> >>> (It does appear to me that mammals evolved from birds,
> >>> due to existence of somewhat-birdlike mammals in Australia
>
> >> Which mammals would those be ?
>
> > The monotremes. The most widely known example is the duck-billed
> > platypus, a monotreme in the "prototheria" subclass of mammals.
>
> They are nothing like a bird. They just evolved a beak,
> in the same way that some fish did, like a swordfish etc.
>
> And plenty of reptiles have eggs.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platypus#Evolution
> does not say that they evolved from birds.
>
> > The other 4 living examples are the three long-beaked
> > echidnas and the short-beaked echidna.
>
> They are nothing like birds either. There is no evidence that they evolved from birds.
>
> And other australian mammals did not evolve from them either.
>
> >>> where evolution appears to
> >>> me to have often progressed more slowly while Australia was an
> >>> "island" isolated from other continents that Australia longer-ago
> >>> was connected to with land routes.)
>
> >> That lack of a connection happened long before any of that level of
> >> evolution.
>
> > Australia separated from the southern supercontinent Gondwana about
> > 96 million years ago.
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia_(continent)
>
> Have fun explaining the humans there.
>
> > Marsupial mammals were in existence in the early Cretaceous period
> > (as in closer to 145.5 million years ago than to 65.5 million years
> > ago).
>
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cretaceous
>
> > It is currently thought that marsupial and placental mammals resulted
> > from a branching in mammal evolution later than one that resulted in
> > modern monotremes including the duck-billed platypus and long-beaked
> > echidnas.
>
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monotremata
>
> > That same article says that even placental mammals were in existence
> > in the late Cretaceous period. However, eutherian mammals (includes
> > placentals and extinct mammals more like placentals than marsupials)
> > were noted to exist as long as 125 million years ago. Placental
> > mammals came into existence more than 105 million years ago and had
> > divided into 3 divisions of some sort by 100 million years ago.
>
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placentals
>
> > The oldest known momotreme specimen was dated to 123 million years
> > ago, though there is thought that they first came into existence in
> > the early Cretaceous period (more recently than 145.5 million years
> > ago) or even the late Jurassic period (longer ago than 145.5 million
> > years).
>
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monotremata
>
> > - Don Klipstein (d...@misty.com)

Humans came from clay, says the Bible.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Apr 18 2010 12:16 pm
From: don@manx.misty.com (Don Klipstein)

In article <82vmp4F442U1@mid.individual.net>, 454@1.com wrote:
>Don Klipstein wrote:
>> In article <82vemhFu49U1@mid.individual.net>, 454@1.com wrote:
>>> Don Klipstein wrote:
>>>> In article <hq9gdq$l0k$2@news.eternal-september.org>, Tom Sherman
>>>> °_° wrote:
>>>>> On 4/14/2010 12:18 AM, Don Klipstein wrote:
>>>>
>>>> <In short, expressing strong skepticism of dinosaurs existing and
>>>> being alive much more recently than 63-65 million years ago>
>>>>
>>>>> Some dinosaurs with feathers survived, and their descendants are
>>>>> still with us.
>>>>
>>>> Can you cite what dinosaurs survived to be still with us, along
>>>> with citing that such animals are considered dinosaurs as opposed
>>>> to some sort of birds or a subclass/super-order/order of mammals
>>>> (monotremes)?
>>>>
>>>> (It appears to me that dinosaurs were either a bird-ish-like
>>>> subclass of reptiles, or otherwise achieving a "class" of its own in
>>>> the chordate phylum of the animal kingdom.)
>>>>
>>>> (Wikipedia does mention that there is one "clade" of animals that
>>>> evolved directly from dinosaurs, from specifically "theropod"
>>>> dinosaurs, and that is the "class" of birds.)
>>>> (It does appear to me that mammals evolved from birds,
>>>> due to existence of somewhat-birdlike mammals in Australia
>>>
>>> Which mammals would those be ?
>>
>> The monotremes. The most widely known example is the duck-billed
>> platypus, a monotreme in the "prototheria" subclass of mammals.
>
>They are nothing like a bird. They just evolved a beak,
>in the same way that some fish did, like a swordfish etc.
>
>And plenty of reptiles have eggs.
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platypus#Evolution
>does not say that they evolved from birds.

Turns out you have a point. I did do a bit of web searching, and ran
into:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_mammals

That one says mammals evolved within the synapsid lineage, which started
as mammal-like reptiles.

>> The other 4 living examples are the three long-beaked
>> echidnas and the short-beaked echidna.
>
>They are nothing like birds either. There is no evidence that they
>evolved from birds.
>
>And other australian mammals did not evolve from them either.
>
>>>> where evolution appears to
>>>> me to have often progressed more slowly while Australia was an
>>>> "island" isolated from other continents that Australia longer-ago
>>>> was connected to with land routes.)
>>>
>>> That lack of a connection happened long before any of that level of
>>> evolution.
>>
>> Australia separated from the southern supercontinent Gondwana about
>> 96 million years ago.
>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia_(continent)
>
>Have fun explaining the humans there.

Or humans in Hawaii and other places more remote from Africa/Eurasia
than Australia is?

The Wikipedia article on Australia says it is estimated that humans
first arrived from southeast Asia via land bridges and short sea
crossings. The sea level was definitely a lot lower then.

- Don Klipstein (don@misty.com)

==============================================================================
TOPIC: A Toyota makes you dumb; a bicycle makes you smart
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/3ebd4f06ad340d18?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 11 ==
Date: Sun, Apr 18 2010 6:50 am
From: "TibetanMonkey, the-Monkey-with-the-Bag-of-Shit"

Notice there's no nagging mosquito or teasing here, just one direct
and overwhelming statement that proves once and for all there's no
such thing as "Toyota quality." If there was, they would dominate the
European market too, and the reality is they only control 5% of the
market and losing ground.

And then the "rules & regulations" (whoever in government sets them to
be impassable) make it nearly a pain to bring in, say, a Fiat or
Renault. And don't tell me (because I heard it before) they are no
good. The proof is that they outsell, outsmart Toyota.

***

"Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep
moving" -Albert Einstein

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

THE WISE TIBETAN MONKEY SAYS

"A Toyota makes you dumb; a bicycle makes you smart. I still enjoy
driving a Miata though"

http://webspawner.com/users/BANANAREVOLUTION

== 2 of 11 ==
Date: Sun, Apr 18 2010 10:36 am
From: Forrest Hodge

On 4/18/2010 9:50 AM, TibetanMonkey, the-Monkey-with-the-Bag-of-Shit wrote:
> Notice there's no nagging mosquito or teasing here, just one direct
> and overwhelming statement that proves once and for all there's no
> such thing as "Toyota quality." If there was, they would dominate the
> European market too, and the reality is they only control 5% of the
> market and losing ground.
>
> And then the "rules& regulations" (whoever in government sets them to
> be impassable) make it nearly a pain to bring in, say, a Fiat or
> Renault. And don't tell me (because I heard it before) they are no
> good. The proof is that they outsell, outsmart Toyota.
>
> ***
>
> "Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep
> moving" -Albert Einstein
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> THE WISE TIBETAN MONKEY SAYS
>
> "A Toyota makes you dumb; a bicycle makes you smart. I still enjoy
> driving a Miata though"
>
> http://webspawner.com/users/BANANAREVOLUTION

Didn't Fiat and Renault both leave the U.S. market in shame about 30
years ago? Seems that they had problems building cars that didn't break
down if looked at them wrong. I'm sure their newer cars cars are better,
but here in the U.S. most people (myself included) do not want a tiny
hatchback with a diesel or 1.2L petrol engine. Such car would be
unsuitable for my needs.

== 3 of 11 ==
Date: Sun, Apr 18 2010 11:21 am
From: "TibetanMonkey, Originator of the Banana Kung-Fu"

On Apr 18, 1:36 pm, Forrest Hodge <f...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On 4/18/2010 9:50 AM, TibetanMonkey, the-Monkey-with-the-Bag-of-Shit wrote:
>
>
>
> > Notice there's no nagging mosquito or teasing here, just one direct
> > and overwhelming statement that proves once and for all there's no
> > such thing as "Toyota quality." If there was, they would dominate the
> > European market too, and the reality is they only control 5% of the
> > market and losing ground.
>
> > And then the "rules& regulations" (whoever in government sets them to
> > be impassable) make it nearly a pain to bring in, say, a Fiat or
> > Renault. And don't tell me (because I heard it before) they are no
> > good. The proof is that they outsell, outsmart Toyota.
>
> > ***
>
> > "Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep
> > moving" -Albert Einstein
>
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> > THE WISE TIBETAN MONKEY SAYS
>
> > "A Toyota makes you dumb; a bicycle makes you smart. I still enjoy
> > driving a Miata though"
>
> >http://webspawner.com/users/BANANAREVOLUTION
>
> Didn't Fiat and Renault both leave the U.S. market in shame about 30
> years ago? Seems that they had problems building cars that didn't break
> down if looked at them wrong. I'm sure their newer cars cars are better,
> but here in the U.S. most people (myself included) do not want a tiny
> hatchback with a diesel or 1.2L petrol engine. Such car would be
> unsuitable for my needs.

Still let the buyer pick and choose, not the nanny state tell you
what's safe or not. By the way, bicycles, scooters, motorcycles and
*SUVs* do not meet those standards.

What the Europeans did NOT do is dumb down their cars to suit the
American dumb drivers.

== 4 of 11 ==
Date: Sun, Apr 18 2010 12:41 pm
From: Forrest Hodge

On 4/18/2010 2:21 PM, TibetanMonkey, Originator of the Banana Kung-Fu wrote:
> On Apr 18, 1:36 pm, Forrest Hodge<f...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> On 4/18/2010 9:50 AM, TibetanMonkey, the-Monkey-with-the-Bag-of-Shit wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> Notice there's no nagging mosquito or teasing here, just one direct
>>> and overwhelming statement that proves once and for all there's no
>>> such thing as "Toyota quality." If there was, they would dominate the
>>> European market too, and the reality is they only control 5% of the
>>> market and losing ground.
>>
>>> And then the "rules& regulations" (whoever in government sets them to
>>> be impassable) make it nearly a pain to bring in, say, a Fiat or
>>> Renault. And don't tell me (because I heard it before) they are no
>>> good. The proof is that they outsell, outsmart Toyota.
>>
>>> ***
>>
>>> "Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep
>>> moving" -Albert Einstein
>>
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>> THE WISE TIBETAN MONKEY SAYS
>>
>>> "A Toyota makes you dumb; a bicycle makes you smart. I still enjoy
>>> driving a Miata though"
>>
>>> http://webspawner.com/users/BANANAREVOLUTION
>>
>> Didn't Fiat and Renault both leave the U.S. market in shame about 30
>> years ago? Seems that they had problems building cars that didn't break
>> down if looked at them wrong. I'm sure their newer cars cars are better,
>> but here in the U.S. most people (myself included) do not want a tiny
>> hatchback with a diesel or 1.2L petrol engine. Such car would be
>> unsuitable for my needs.
>
> Still let the buyer pick and choose, not the nanny state tell you
> what's safe or not. By the way, bicycles, scooters, motorcycles and
> *SUVs* do not meet those standards.
>
> What the Europeans did NOT do is dumb down their cars to suit the
> American dumb drivers.
>
There's nothing keeping them from selling those cars here these days.
Euro NCAP and emissions standards are about the same, and in some cases
more stringent than the saftey/emissions standards here, that's a not a
problem. The problem is that Americans aren't willing to pay $22-25k for
small, slow car. Look at the new Focus RS. It's a nice car, but if Ford
were to import to the U.S. it would cost 35k USD, not many people are
willing to shell out that kind of money for a Focus, especially when you
can buy a faster and arguably better-looking Mustang GT for less.

== 5 of 11 ==
Date: Sun, Apr 18 2010 1:05 pm
From: "TibetanMonkey, Originator of the Banana Kung-Fu"

On Apr 18, 3:34 pm, Conscience <nobama@göv.com> wrote:
> On 2010-04-18 11:05:07 -0700, "TibetanMonkey,
> the-Monkey-with-the-Bag-of-Shit" <nolionnoprob...@yahoo.com> said:
>
> >> <g> That reminds me of someone I knew years ago that said his driving
> >> a Saab 900 got him chicks.
>
> >> A Saab.
>
> > A Saab was for those who dared to be different.
>
> By that "reasoning", chicks would be flocking to those attending Star
> Trek conventions, wearing Klingon make-up.

Do you think Dutch girls who are proud of their bikes will wet their
panties when they see an American cowboy in SUV?

I think it's all a matter of perspective.

== 6 of 11 ==
Date: Sun, Apr 18 2010 2:19 pm
From: Forrest Hodge

On 4/18/2010 4:05 PM, TibetanMonkey, Originator of the Banana Kung-Fu wrote:
> On Apr 18, 3:34 pm, Conscience<nobama@g�v.com> wrote:
>> On 2010-04-18 11:05:07 -0700, "TibetanMonkey,
>> the-Monkey-with-the-Bag-of-Shit"<nolionnoprob...@yahoo.com> said:
>>
>>>> <g> That reminds me of someone I knew years ago that said his driving
>>>> a Saab 900 got him chicks.
>>
>>>> A Saab.
>>
>>> A Saab was for those who dared to be different.
>>
>> By that "reasoning", chicks would be flocking to those attending Star
>> Trek conventions, wearing Klingon make-up.
>
> Do you think Dutch girls who are proud of their bikes will wet their
> panties when they see an American cowboy in SUV?
>
> I think it's all a matter of perspective.
>
I'm not sure why you have such a hard on for dumping on SUV's.
Apparently you're a bicycle enthusiast, you get hit by anything other
than another bike or a pedestrian, it's not really going matter what it
is. Smart will plow over/through at 50 MPH, just as easy as a Tahoe will.

== 7 of 11 ==
Date: Sun, Apr 18 2010 2:24 pm
From: "TibetanMonkey, the-Monkey-with-the-Bag-of-Shit"

On Apr 18, 3:41 pm, Forrest Hodge <f...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On 4/18/2010 2:21 PM, TibetanMonkey, Originator of the Banana Kung-Fu wrote:
>
> > On Apr 18, 1:36 pm, Forrest Hodge<f...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> On 4/18/2010 9:50 AM, TibetanMonkey, the-Monkey-with-the-Bag-of-Shit wrote:
>
> >>> Notice there's no nagging mosquito or teasing here, just one direct
> >>> and overwhelming statement that proves once and for all there's no
> >>> such thing as "Toyota quality." If there was, they would dominate the
> >>> European market too, and the reality is they only control 5% of the
> >>> market and losing ground.
>
> >>> And then the "rules& regulations" (whoever in government sets them to
> >>> be impassable) make it nearly a pain to bring in, say, a Fiat or
> >>> Renault. And don't tell me (because I heard it before) they are no
> >>> good. The proof is that they outsell, outsmart Toyota.
>
> >>> ***
>
> >>> "Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep
> >>> moving" -Albert Einstein
>
> >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> >>> THE WISE TIBETAN MONKEY SAYS
>
> >>> "A Toyota makes you dumb; a bicycle makes you smart. I still enjoy
> >>> driving a Miata though"
>
> >>>http://webspawner.com/users/BANANAREVOLUTION
>
> >> Didn't Fiat and Renault both leave the U.S. market in shame about 30
> >> years ago? Seems that they had problems building cars that didn't break
> >> down if looked at them wrong. I'm sure their newer cars cars are better,
> >> but here in the U.S. most people (myself included) do not want a tiny
> >> hatchback with a diesel or 1.2L petrol engine. Such car would be
> >> unsuitable for my needs.
>
> > Still let the buyer pick and choose, not the nanny state tell you
> > what's safe or not. By the way, bicycles, scooters, motorcycles and
> > *SUVs* do not meet those standards.
>
> > What the Europeans did NOT do is dumb down their cars to suit the
> > American dumb drivers.
>
> There's nothing keeping them from selling those cars here these days.
> Euro NCAP and emissions standards are about the same, and in some cases
> more stringent than the saftey/emissions standards here, that's a not a
> problem. The problem is that Americans aren't willing to pay $22-25k for
> small, slow car. Look at the new Focus RS. It's a nice car, but if Ford
> were to import to the U.S. it would cost 35k USD, not many people are
> willing to shell out that kind of money for a Focus, especially when you
> can buy a faster and arguably better-looking Mustang GT for less.

The Focus was a big hit, and changed Toyota dumb cars forever. Now
Smart is making them come up with an IQ...

But it's NOT all about emissions is also about little details like
safety beams on doors, which get defeated by SUV's higher bumpers
anyway.

Don't you find it a little strange you can't get European cars other
than the official ones, not even if you want to bring one on your own?

== 8 of 11 ==
Date: Sun, Apr 18 2010 2:43 pm
From: "TibetanMonkey, the-Monkey-with-the-Bag-of-Shit"

On Apr 18, 5:19 pm, Forrest Hodge <f...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On 4/18/2010 4:05 PM, TibetanMonkey, Originator of the Banana Kung-Fu wrote:
>
> > On Apr 18, 3:34 pm, Conscience<nobama@g v.com> wrote:
> >> On 2010-04-18 11:05:07 -0700, "TibetanMonkey,
> >> the-Monkey-with-the-Bag-of-Shit"<nolionnoprob...@yahoo.com> said:
>
> >>>> <g> That reminds me of someone I knew years ago that said his driving
> >>>> a Saab 900 got him chicks.
>
> >>>> A Saab.
>
> >>> A Saab was for those who dared to be different.
>
> >> By that "reasoning", chicks would be flocking to those attending Star
> >> Trek conventions, wearing Klingon make-up.
>
> > Do you think Dutch girls who are proud of their bikes will wet their
> > panties when they see an American cowboy in SUV?
>
> > I think it's all a matter of perspective.
>
> I'm not sure why you have such a hard on for dumping on SUV's.
> Apparently you're a bicycle enthusiast, you get hit by anything other
> than another bike or a pedestrian, it's not really going matter what it
> is. Smart will plow over/through at 50 MPH, just as easy as a Tahoe will.

Perhaps they are too wide and driven recklessly, almost certainly
PHONE IN HAND?

As a matter of fact, I don't stand much of a chance in a regular car
given the high bumpers of the SUV, meant for the jungle, not for city
traffic.

== 9 of 11 ==
Date: Sun, Apr 18 2010 3:01 pm
From: "TibetanMonkey, the-Monkey-with-the-Bag-of-Shit"

Why can't we have a road system like in Germany where there's room for
the super fast and super slow, like cyclists?

Not super fast all the time, just in certain areas, where the SUVs are
restricted to 70 miles, and where we enforce the passing lanes?

Is that something so smart that only the Germans can accomplish? Are
we doomed with IDIOCRACY?

Good movie, by the way.

== 10 of 11 ==
Date: Sun, Apr 18 2010 5:06 pm
From: Forrest Hodge

On 4/18/2010 5:24 PM, TibetanMonkey, the-Monkey-with-the-Bag-of-Shit wrote:
> On Apr 18, 3:41 pm, Forrest Hodge<f...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> On 4/18/2010 2:21 PM, TibetanMonkey, Originator of the Banana Kung-Fu wrote:
>>
>>> On Apr 18, 1:36 pm, Forrest Hodge<f...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On 4/18/2010 9:50 AM, TibetanMonkey, the-Monkey-with-the-Bag-of-Shit wrote:
>>
>>>>> Notice there's no nagging mosquito or teasing here, just one direct
>>>>> and overwhelming statement that proves once and for all there's no
>>>>> such thing as "Toyota quality." If there was, they would dominate the
>>>>> European market too, and the reality is they only control 5% of the
>>>>> market and losing ground.
>>
>>>>> And then the "rules& regulations" (whoever in government sets them to
>>>>> be impassable) make it nearly a pain to bring in, say, a Fiat or
>>>>> Renault. And don't tell me (because I heard it before) they are no
>>>>> good. The proof is that they outsell, outsmart Toyota.
>>
>>>>> ***
>>
>>>>> "Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep
>>>>> moving" -Albert Einstein
>>
>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>>>> THE WISE TIBETAN MONKEY SAYS
>>
>>>>> "A Toyota makes you dumb; a bicycle makes you smart. I still enjoy
>>>>> driving a Miata though"
>>
>>>>> http://webspawner.com/users/BANANAREVOLUTION
>>
>>>> Didn't Fiat and Renault both leave the U.S. market in shame about 30
>>>> years ago? Seems that they had problems building cars that didn't break
>>>> down if looked at them wrong. I'm sure their newer cars cars are better,
>>>> but here in the U.S. most people (myself included) do not want a tiny
>>>> hatchback with a diesel or 1.2L petrol engine. Such car would be
>>>> unsuitable for my needs.
>>
>>> Still let the buyer pick and choose, not the nanny state tell you
>>> what's safe or not. By the way, bicycles, scooters, motorcycles and
>>> *SUVs* do not meet those standards.
>>
>>> What the Europeans did NOT do is dumb down their cars to suit the
>>> American dumb drivers.
>>
>> There's nothing keeping them from selling those cars here these days.
>> Euro NCAP and emissions standards are about the same, and in some cases
>> more stringent than the saftey/emissions standards here, that's a not a
>> problem. The problem is that Americans aren't willing to pay $22-25k for
>> small, slow car. Look at the new Focus RS. It's a nice car, but if Ford
>> were to import to the U.S. it would cost 35k USD, not many people are
>> willing to shell out that kind of money for a Focus, especially when you
>> can buy a faster and arguably better-looking Mustang GT for less.
>
> The Focus was a big hit, and changed Toyota dumb cars forever. Now
> Smart is making them come up with an IQ...
>
> But it's NOT all about emissions is also about little details like
> safety beams on doors, which get defeated by SUV's higher bumpers
> anyway.
>
> Don't you find it a little strange you can't get European cars other
> than the official ones, not even if you want to bring one on your own?
>
No not really because of my three vehicles two were never sold in
Europe, and one actually is European, though it's marque has given up on
makingcars, they're back to making motorcycles. The only European cars
that are currently in production that I find desirable ( re: rear wheel
drive, and 300+ HP) are sold in the U.S. anyway. If the automakers
thought they could sell they econobox euro models over here they would,
and indeed some are on the way, Ford is bringing over the Fiesta, GM is
bringing over some small Opels and Chrysler is rumored to be bring over
the Fiat 500.

== 11 of 11 ==
Date: Sun, Apr 18 2010 5:51 pm
From: "TibetanMonkey, the-Monkey-with-the-Bag-of-Shit"

On Apr 18, 8:06 pm, Forrest Hodge <f...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On 4/18/2010 5:24 PM, TibetanMonkey, the-Monkey-with-the-Bag-of-Shit wrote:
>
> > On Apr 18, 3:41 pm, Forrest Hodge<f...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> On 4/18/2010 2:21 PM, TibetanMonkey, Originator of the Banana Kung-Fu wrote:
>
> >>> On Apr 18, 1:36 pm, Forrest Hodge<f...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> On 4/18/2010 9:50 AM, TibetanMonkey, the-Monkey-with-the-Bag-of-Shit wrote:
>
> >>>>> Notice there's no nagging mosquito or teasing here, just one direct
> >>>>> and overwhelming statement that proves once and for all there's no
> >>>>> such thing as "Toyota quality." If there was, they would dominate the
> >>>>> European market too, and the reality is they only control 5% of the
> >>>>> market and losing ground.
>
> >>>>> And then the "rules& regulations" (whoever in government sets them to
> >>>>> be impassable) make it nearly a pain to bring in, say, a Fiat or
> >>>>> Renault. And don't tell me (because I heard it before) they are no
> >>>>> good. The proof is that they outsell, outsmart Toyota.
>
> >>>>> ***
>
> >>>>> "Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep
> >>>>> moving" -Albert Einstein
>
> >>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> >>>>> THE WISE TIBETAN MONKEY SAYS
>
> >>>>> "A Toyota makes you dumb; a bicycle makes you smart. I still enjoy
> >>>>> driving a Miata though"
>
> >>>>>http://webspawner.com/users/BANANAREVOLUTION
>
> >>>> Didn't Fiat and Renault both leave the U.S. market in shame about 30
> >>>> years ago? Seems that they had problems building cars that didn't break
> >>>> down if looked at them wrong. I'm sure their newer cars cars are better,
> >>>> but here in the U.S. most people (myself included) do not want a tiny
> >>>> hatchback with a diesel or 1.2L petrol engine. Such car would be
> >>>> unsuitable for my needs.
>
> >>> Still let the buyer pick and choose, not the nanny state tell you
> >>> what's safe or not. By the way, bicycles, scooters, motorcycles and
> >>> *SUVs* do not meet those standards.
>
> >>> What the Europeans did NOT do is dumb down their cars to suit the
> >>> American dumb drivers.
>
> >> There's nothing keeping them from selling those cars here these days.
> >> Euro NCAP and emissions standards are about the same, and in some cases
> >> more stringent than the saftey/emissions standards here, that's a not a
> >> problem. The problem is that Americans aren't willing to pay $22-25k for
> >> small, slow car. Look at the new Focus RS. It's a nice car, but if Ford
> >> were to import to the U.S. it would cost 35k USD, not many people are
> >> willing to shell out that kind of money for a Focus, especially when you
> >> can buy a faster and arguably better-looking Mustang GT for less.
>
> > The Focus was a big hit, and changed Toyota dumb cars forever. Now
> > Smart is making them come up with an IQ...
>
> > But it's NOT all about emissions is also about little details like
> > safety beams on doors, which get defeated by SUV's higher bumpers
> > anyway.
>
> > Don't you find it a little strange you can't get European cars other
> > than the official ones, not even if you want to bring one on your own?
>
> No not really because of my three vehicles two were never sold in
> Europe, and one actually is European, though it's marque has given up on
> makingcars, they're back to making motorcycles. The only European cars
> that are currently in production that I find desirable ( re: rear wheel
> drive, and 300+ HP) are sold in the U.S. anyway. If the automakers
> thought they could sell they econobox euro models over here they would,
> and indeed some are on the way, Ford is bringing over the Fiesta, GM is
> bringing over some small Opels and Chrysler is rumored to be bring over
> the Fiat 500.

Go for it then. The French would have said, "Vive la liberte!" and it
was about time. I like little cars though. Not even a Mercedes makes
me drool like Fiat 500. Open top is even better.

Now WE NEED SAFE ROADS, and voila!

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Do Christians really kiss Jesus' ass?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/0ee4f65189691804?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Apr 18 2010 7:11 am
From: "TibetanMonkey, Originator of the Banana Kung-Fu"

I mean, I haven't seen any image of the holy donkey Jesus rode, nor do
they seem to be "down to earth" when it comes to transportation
choices.

I think he inspired Sancho Panza to ride an ass, but there's no
evidence he had a choice to ride a horse. And yet I find it most
appealing that we think our transportation choices, and be as close to
Jesus as possible, if not for him, then for the environment.

--------------------------------------------------------

THE WISE TIBETAN MONKEY SAYS

"Get on your ass and go!"

http://webspawner.com/users/BANANAREVOLUTION

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Lowe's "Earth Day" special
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/9b1f02f6cce4f283?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Apr 18 2010 1:11 pm
From: Ohioguy

I just got an Earth Day coupon book from Lowe's. Says Earth Day on
the front cover.

One of the coupons inside is for 10% off a leaf blower. It is an
electric leaf blower, and the ad stresses "you'll never have to use a
broom again".

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't this sort of ad COMPLETELY
NEGATE the whole point of Earth Day?

I mean, heck, they might as well say, "remove the last vestige of
exercise from your life, and INCREASE your use of fossil fuels". That's
a nice Earth Day message.

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Apr 18 2010 1:25 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

Ohioguy wrote:

> I just got an Earth Day coupon book from Lowe's. Says Earth Day on the front cover.

> One of the coupons inside is for 10% off a leaf blower. It is an electric leaf blower, and the ad stresses "you'll
> never have to use a broom again".

> Now correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't this sort of ad COMPLETELY NEGATE the whole point of Earth Day?

Corse it does.

> I mean, heck, they might as well say, "remove the last vestige of exercise from your life, and INCREASE your use of
> fossil fuels". That's a nice Earth Day message.

Yeah, the person responsible should be burnt at the
stake, or more environmentally, kicked to death.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Apr 18 2010 3:40 pm
From: Michael Black

On Sun, 18 Apr 2010, Ohioguy wrote:

> I just got an Earth Day coupon book from Lowe's. Says Earth Day on the
> front cover.
>
> One of the coupons inside is for 10% off a leaf blower. It is an electric
> leaf blower, and the ad stresses "you'll never have to use a broom again".
>
> Now correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't this sort of ad COMPLETELY NEGATE
> the whole point of Earth Day?
>
> I mean, heck, they might as well say, "remove the last vestige of exercise
> from your life, and INCREASE your use of fossil fuels". That's a nice Earth
> Day message.
>
Earth Day was a day back in 1970, the whole point was to raise awareness.
It was on the level of a teach-in, like they had for the Vietnam War and
such.

Yes, it happened a few times after that, though in 1978 the Big Event was
Sun Day, to raise awareness of solar power, and then for some years the
Big Event in late April was for anti-nuclear activity. That was followed
by some years of anti-nuclear weapon activity on April 26th.

It was only in 1990 that Earth Day made it big, getting a big resurrection
and a commercial slant to it. Advertisers got on the bandwagon, so you'd
see environmental specials on tv complete with car advertisiers.

It has sort of stayed in the picture since then, but has more or
less become a "celebration" of something rather than a chance to learn
and then change.

Michael

==============================================================================
TOPIC: how long does it take for credit report to show bill has been paid?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/fea1ed2e36a79558?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Apr 18 2010 1:48 pm
From: "aaronep@pacbell.net"

I am a business person who requires credit reports from individuals
from time to time. If an applicant has an outstanding bill on his
report, and then she does pay it, generally speaking, how long does it
take for the report to show that outstanding bill has been paid?

All replies welcomed!

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Some benefits after returning to U.S.A
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/c03b4cbcbdb81eac?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Apr 18 2010 5:56 pm
From: Rubaiyat of Omar Bradley

On Apr 17, 9:58 pm, "Rod Speed" <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote:
> But he isnt japanese, he's american.

That means the population of Japan, not the racial/ethnic group.

Until and unless john north (the original poster) clarifies the exact
situation that he is aluding to, in detail, I don't think an exact and
correct response is going to be forthcoming (including from me).

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Do you know what would happen if you gave a bunch of bananas to a bunch
of monkeys?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/05565b0b8312402c?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Apr 18 2010 6:01 pm
From: "Edward Dolan"

"TibetanMonkey, Originator of the Banana Kung-Fu"
<comandante.banana@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:5ee86f36-52de-44bf-bda2-eb844723293f@j17g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...
On Apr 15, 10:06 pm, "Edward Dolan" <edo...@iw.net> wrote:
[...]
> > Yes, naked capitalism does not work any better than naked socialism. We
> > have to get the mix right.

We can get that recipe anywhere in Europe: BETTER ROAD MANNERS, MORE
PREVENTION, TOTAL PROTECTION FOR CYCLISTS.

>>> Europe does not have the mix any better than we do. Only the mythical
>>> kingdom of Shangri-La has got it right.

I think people is [are] tired of BS, don't you think?

>>> People always and forever are fouling things up. It is our nature to do
>>> so.

>>> Regards,

>>> Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

==============================================================================
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==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Apr 18 2010 6:06 pm
From: nice

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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Page Plus and Verizon Impulse phones?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/13d8955f6c12c56a?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Apr 18 2010 6:25 pm
From: Gordon

So, following some advise I found here, I went to Best Buy
and bought two Impulse phones, making sure to not activate them.
I then set them up with Page Plus. They make phone calls just
fine. But when I try to use the internet browser, I get a
screen that asks If I want to pay $1.99 to browse the web
for the next 24 hours. I'm too chicken hearted to experiment
and see what will happen if I just answer yes. Can someone
tell me, If I answer yes, will my Page Plus account be
deducted the $1.99?

Also, is it possible to have these phones flashed to remove
the Verizon specific stuff from them? (I suppose that would
be jailbreaking them)

==============================================================================

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Google Groups: http://groups.google.com/?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living - 6 new messages in 4 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

* Best debit card rewards? - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/b10f1d5c39b674be?hl=en
* 2010$$$$wholesale True Religion shorts for women,paypal payment - 1 messages,
1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/88fb2c4cfe1688ea?hl=en
* Doctor getting kickbacks? - 2 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/faff268312f0b359?hl=en
* What was the point of Jesus riding an ass, looking like an ass? - 2 messages,
2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/f875873bd78921b8?hl=en

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Best debit card rewards?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/b10f1d5c39b674be?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Apr 17 2010 10:23 pm
From: SMS

On 17/04/10 8:31 PM, laredotornado wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'm done a little Googling, but wanted to get some opinions -- what
> kind of rewards do you get for using your bank debit card? At a
> couple of places I shop, they only accept cash or bank debit cards, so
> I'm looking to maximize my rewards by using a debit card.
>
> Thanks, - Dave

The best you can do it so buy prepaid Mastercard debit cards from USAA
with a USAA credit card. You get rewards on the credit card because the
reloading of the prepaid card is treated as a purchase, not a cash
advance (only if you use a USAA credit card to refill it, not any other
card from any other bank).

Since USAA charges no fees on their prepaid cards, and you can get cash
with the debit card at Cardtronics ATMs with no fees, you can earn a lot
of points if you want to go through the trouble, though they might shut
you down if you abuse this.

Unfortunately, USAA has been worsening their credit card offerings
lately. The card I have raised the number of points for a $500 r/t
flight from 25,000 to 30,000 on April 1. You can still get 1% cash
though. This card is no longer offered. The replacement cards are
essentially a 1% reward for airline tickets, and a 0.83% cash reward.

I'm hoping that Schwab continues with their 2% cash back Visa Signature
card, but I'm not confident that they'll keep that program going for
very long.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: 2010$$$$wholesale True Religion shorts for women,paypal payment
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/88fb2c4cfe1688ea?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Apr 17 2010 10:27 pm
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== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Apr 17 2010 10:35 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

Gordon Burditt wrote:

>>> It's disgraceful and really not understandable why the courts won't
>>> intervene and stop these practices. If you ask for your car to be
>>> repaired and the garage gives you a quote that's the maximum
>>> they can collect. Why should the human/doctor be any different?

>> Oh, my doc could absolutely give fixed quotes for cash prices for office visits and procedures.

> I doubt it.

Its true anyway.

> There are at least three sets of prices:

And you forgot the most important one in that particular situation.

> 1. The amount the doctor bills the insurance company. This cost is
> pretty much irrelevant to the insured. It could hurt the uninsured a lot.

> 2. The contract amount for the procedure. An in-network doctor can't
> charge more than this amount. This amount gets paid by the insurance
> company and the patient, divided somehow.

> 3. The amount paid by the patient. This can be affected by things
> like how much deductible he hasn't used yet.

4. The amount of cash he will accept for a particular office visit
and proceedure when he has no involvement what so ever with any
insurance company at all, because he is paid in cash by the patient.

> *ALL THREE* of those prices are highly variable depending on your insurance company.

And FOUR involves no insurance company whatever as far as the doctor is concerned.

>> It's what the patient ends up paying after
>> insurance is no guarantee. And I doubt that your local mechanic ever
>> has to tell you what you will end up paying after your insurance
>> company pays. Not only that, but a car has a finite and constantly
>> decreasing value. Can you see some insurance company saying, "I'm
>> sorry, you have maxed out your lifetime benefits for health care and
>> we are 'totalling' you. We will settle your case for $$ and you
>> will have to take care of any further medical costs out of your
>> pocket for the rest of your life; alternatively, if you present to
>> the local euthanasia center for disposal and provide proof, you can
>> get a higher figure for being totalled and disposed of." That
>> sounds pretty immoral and intolerable to me.

> I expect government health care to do just this sort of thing,

It doesnt, most obviously when you end up with
a serious infection as a result of the surgery etc
or when its discovered that you have cancer when
they open you up and it makes sense to remove
the cancer when it has been discovered etc.

> and I expect that it's already being done in some situations,

Yes, when there are no unexpected complications.

> like not giving a 93-year-old man a heart transplant.

That happens with the insurance system too when there
are no suitable donor hearts available and that individual
is well down the queue and gets to die without getting one.

The cost of the medical services that they need before
they end up dead tho cannot be predicted in advance.

No govt operation just decides that an individual is too old to ever
end up with a transplant and so they just yawn and dont provide
any further treatment because the individual will die sometime.

>> And that is why health insurance is so different than medical insurance.

> Would you care to define "health insurance", "medical insurance",
> and state the difference between the two?

>> Now, if health insurance worked like car insurance, then the patient would
>> have to pay the bill and then be reimbursed by the insurance company,

> Some medical services work exactly like that: for example,
> flu shots. You pay for the flu shot, and they give you a
> receipt and YOU file a claim with your insurance company.

Even those dont work like that if you end up with a bad result from the flu shot.

> I've also seen the same thing happen with more expensive procedures
> like a non-routine root canal requiring a specialist. These guys *can*
> give you a (large) price and stick to it. You can talk to your insurance
> company to see how much they will pay.

But that still doesnt cover the situation where you end up with a serious infection.

>> or the insurance company would have a fixed amount they would pay
>> and they could pay it to the insurance company no questions asked.

>> Unfortunately, the doc's office is not allowed to bill the patient
>> until he has first billed the primary insurance, then after the
>> primary insurance has paid he has to bill any secondary insurance
>> (and if the patient messed up on giving the doc's office the proper
>> insurance, that gets all messed up)

> Some medical services decidedly do *NOT* work that way.
> The doctor doesn't communicate with the insurance company.

>> I think that if the insurance companies dealt directly with the
>> patients and just reimbursed the patients for allowable costs
>> instead of the doctors having to fight with them about getting paid,
>> then it wouldn't be quite such a tangled mess for anybody.

> Yes, it would be a tangled mess, with the patient having to pass
> messages between the insurance company and the doctor.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Apr 17 2010 10:42 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

Gordon Burditt wrote:

>>> You're probably correct and this is one of the things the recent
>>> health care reform should have corrected but probably didn't. It's
>>> disgraceful and really not understandable why the courts won't
>>> intervene and stop these practices. If you ask for your car to be
>>> repaired and the garage gives you a quote that's the maximum
>>> they can collect. Why should the human/doctor be any different?

>> Essentially because its nowhere near as easy to predict
>> what total services the individual needs with a serious
>> medical problem, like for example when the individual
>> ends up with a very serious infection that costs a hell
>> of a lot to fix. You dont get anything like that with cars.

> You can get something like that with cars.

Nope, nothing like it. With a car where it turns out that when
the part is removed, its clear that the engine is completely
fucked beyond any possibility of economic repair, they can
always ring you and ask you what you want to do about that,
whether you want to pay for a new engine as well etc.

> For example, you bring in the car, badly overheating, and they
> diagnose it as a cracked radiator, and quote you a (large) price.
> (Up to this point, this really happened. Yes, the crack was real;
> I pointed it out to them.) *LATER*, after they've fixed the radiator,
> they try to test the engine and discover that the block is cracked
> from severe overheating due to the cracked radiator. (What really
> happened here was they tested the engine and decided it wasn't
> harmed by the overheating. Apparently repeatedly stopping and
> refilling the radiator with water helped prevent damage while limping
> home.) They'll stick to their quote on fixing the radiator, but they won't
> include a free replacement engine block in the deal.

And so its not the same thing as when you develope a serious
infection as a RESULT of the surgery and they certainly dont
have the option to just let the individual die when it got infected.

> It isn't that unusual to discover that one part failing
> takes out another part also (on both cars and humans).

Sure, but with the car, you are welcome to decide that the
car is not economic to repair and should be scrapped when
that is discovered. Not too many patients are too keen on
being told that it was discovered that they had cancer when
they were opened up and since that was not included in the
original quote, they didnt bother to do anything about the
cancer they discovered or just yawned and decided that
the individual had passed its useby date and did the
hernia anyway, since the patient had agreed to pay for that.

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Apr 17 2010 10:49 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

Don Klipstein wrote:
> In article <82vemhFu49U1@mid.individual.net>, 454@1.com wrote:
>> Don Klipstein wrote:
>>> In article <hq9gdq$l0k$2@news.eternal-september.org>, Tom Sherman
>>> °_° wrote:
>>>> On 4/14/2010 12:18 AM, Don Klipstein wrote:
>>>
>>> <In short, expressing strong skepticism of dinosaurs existing and
>>> being alive much more recently than 63-65 million years ago>
>>>
>>>> Some dinosaurs with feathers survived, and their descendants are
>>>> still with us.
>>>
>>> Can you cite what dinosaurs survived to be still with us, along
>>> with citing that such animals are considered dinosaurs as opposed
>>> to some sort of birds or a subclass/super-order/order of mammals
>>> (monotremes)?
>>>
>>> (It appears to me that dinosaurs were either a bird-ish-like
>>> subclass of reptiles, or otherwise achieving a "class" of its own in
>>> the chordate phylum of the animal kingdom.)
>>>
>>> (Wikipedia does mention that there is one "clade" of animals that
>>> evolved directly from dinosaurs, from specifically "theropod"
>>> dinosaurs, and that is the "class" of birds.)
>>> (It does appear to me that mammals evolved from birds,
>>> due to existence of somewhat-birdlike mammals in Australia
>>
>> Which mammals would those be ?
>
> The monotremes. The most widely known example is the duck-billed
> platypus, a monotreme in the "prototheria" subclass of mammals.

They are nothing like a bird. They just evolved a beak, in
the same way that some fish did, like a swordfish etc.

> The other 4 living examples are the three long-beaked
> echidnas and the short-beaked echidna.

They are nothing like birds either. There is no evidence that they evolved from birds.

And other australian mammals did not evolve from them either.

>>> where evolution appears to
>>> me to have often progressed more slowly while Australia was an
>>> "island" isolated from other continents that Australia longer-ago
>>> was connected to with land routes.)
>>
>> That lack of a connection happened long before any of that level of
>> evolution.
>
> Australia separated from the southern supercontinent Gondwana about
> 96 million years ago.

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia_(continent)

Have fun explaining the humans there.

> Marsupial mammals were in existence in the early Cretaceous period
> (as in closer to 145.5 million years ago than to 65.5 million years
> ago).
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cretaceous
>
> It is currently thought that marsupial and placental mammals resulted
> from a branching in mammal evolution later than one that resulted in
> modern monotremes including the duck-billed platypus and long-beaked
> echidnas.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monotremata
>
> That same article says that even placental mammals were in existence
> in the late Cretaceous period. However, eutherian mammals (includes
> placentals and extinct mammals more like placentals than marsupials)
> were noted to exist as long as 125 million years ago. Placental
> mammals came into existence more than 105 million years ago and had
> divided into 3 divisions of some sort by 100 million years ago.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placentals
>
> The oldest known momotreme specimen was dated to 123 million years
> ago, though there is thought that they first came into existence in
> the early Cretaceous period (more recently than 145.5 million years
> ago) or even the late Jurassic period (longer ago than 145.5 million
> years).
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monotremata
>
> - Don Klipstein (don@misty.com)

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Apr 17 2010 11:22 pm
From: "454" <454@1.com>

They are nothing like a bird. They just evolved a beak,
in the same way that some fish did, like a swordfish etc.

And plenty of reptiles have eggs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platypus#Evolution
does not say that they evolved from birds.