Frugal Living: Sep 29, 2009

misc.consumers.frugal-living
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TOPIC: Keeping a good credit rating: how often should you use credit?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/f6defd8acad454e7?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 28 2009 7:49 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

JR Weiss wrote
> Clincher wrote

>>>>> If he already has a good credit rating, there should
>>>>> be no reason for a lender to refuse him a credit card,

>>>> 'Course there is. Namely, the opportunity cost of not allocating
>>>> that credit line to someone who'll use the card for its own sake
>>>> and pay interest as well. There's been so much hype about "credit
>>>> scores" that consumers focus all their attention on their that
>>>> and forget all about their profitability ratings.

>>> There's no such cost, because there's no hard limit to the credit lines.

>> The larger the outstanding credit line, the riskier the bank's own
>> position looks and the higher the bank's own cost of borrowing.
>> Banks are absolutely rationing their credit lines, in the interest
>> of managing their "FICO."

> Again, this doesn't apply to the OP. He's not looking for a "large"
> credit line, and many banks have already significantly reduced
> current credit lines. The OP's risk would be extremely low.

>>> For someone who makes large purchases, the 2-3% the
>>> lender gets from the purchases will obviate the first cliam,

>> I remind you the OP is explicitly uninterested in making large purchases.

> Not necessarily so.

He said that VERY unambiguously.

He JUST want to use the credit card like a debit card so he has what
appears to be some credit transactions to try to increase his score.

> He is uninterested in paying interest by making extended payments
> on large purchases. His cash spending habits are unknown.

How he plans to use the card is known, he said that very explicitly.

>>> and the second one doesn't apply to the OP who doesn't have such existing lines.

>> Effectively, it's "zero balances" - that's even worse.

> Unlikely. His expressed desire was to increase his FICO score.
> To do so, he would have to USE his credit lines responsibly.

You dont know whether he plans to pay of his card balances in full every month or not.

He appears to be asking whether that approach would increase his score.

>>> An ethical lender will not refuse credit on such grounds.

>> Ah, so all the OP has to do is find an "ethical" credit card issuer.

>> Thank you for proving my point beyond doubt.

> And what point was that?

>> Obvious jab aside, what the bank is doing here not unethical. A
>> credit card loan is an investment like any other - almost by
>> definition, it's made without being able to discern the future. All
>> we can do is assess the data we do have and make the best possible
>> prediction. That's not unethical, it's what any smart investor does.

> Except many lenders (as well as insurance companies) are now turning
> to other, new, unproven "measures" of risk, with the ONLY real intent
> being to increase their current bottom line. Real lenders' ethics would
> dictate that creditworthy, low-risk customers should be accommodated.

Nothing to do with ethics, its about who produces decent income without risk, stupid.

> They would also dictate that revenue structures be applied equally
> across the board to same-risk customers, so that a creditworthy
> customer is not refused because he plans on playing by
> the rules (e.g., payment in full each month).

Mindlessly silly when those dont produce anything like as much income as those who dont.

== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Tues, Sep 29 2009 2:22 am
From: SMS

Steve wrote:
> Hi;
>
> I have no debts and haven't used credit for years. I have a good
> rating, but I am told it would be better if I used some credit ( and
> paid it back in a timely way ).
>
> I was thinking of getting a credit card and using it as a debit card
> for a small number of circumstances to do just that.
>
> How often and how much is the *minimum* I would need to borrow to
> boost and then maintain my credit rating?

Your best option is to get a Schwab Bank Invest First Visa Credit Card.
There is no annual fee, no foreign transaction charges (Schwab absorbs
the 1% Visa fee and doesn't add their own fee) and they give 2% cash
back, deposited into a Schwab account (this is similar to what the old
Countrywide Bank Visa 2% cash back card did prior to it being
discontinued). 2% cash back on all purchases is very rare these days, I
don't know of any other cards that do this anymore.

Once you have that card, use it for all purchases, and start billing all
your recurring monthly bills to the card (phone, cell phone, Internet,
cable or satellite, insurance, etc.). For a while, PG&E (gas and
electric company in Northern California) allowed you to pay your bill
with a Visa card but they dropped that program. Three advantages are
that you now only have to pay less individual bills, you don't allow
these companies to get money directly from your checking account, and
you'll likely get several hundred dollars a year back in cash back.

Unfortunately, without any existing credit cards you may find it
difficult to get a credit card. Whatever you do, don't use it as a debit
card.

== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Tues, Sep 29 2009 2:36 am
From: SMS

Clincher wrote:

> The larger the outstanding credit line, the riskier the bank's own position
> looks and the higher the bank's own cost of borrowing. Banks are absolutely
> rationing their credit lines, in the interest of managing *their* "FICO."

It can be rather amusing. I was going to get the Delta Amex for one year
with no fee to get enough miles for a free ticket. So they sent the card
with a $2000 limit which was rather worthless to me. The Costco Amex I
have has a credit limit that's more than an order of magnitude greater
than that. When I called to cancel they didn't offer a greater limit.
Later they called and said that they could increase the limit by
decreasing the limit on the Costco Amex card, but by that time I was too
annoyed to continue with the whole thing.

== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Tues, Sep 29 2009 2:53 am
From: SMS

JR Weiss wrote:

> For someone who makes large purchases, the 2-3% the lender gets from
> the purchases will obviate the first cliam, and the second one doesn't
> apply to the OP who doesn't have such existing lines.

It's pretty rare these days to find a merchant that's paying 2-3% on MCC
or Visa (perhaps they're paying that for Amex, but even Amex is not
averse to negotiating lower rates. The rate for card-swipe purchases is
around 1.6%, though there is also a per-transaction fee of around 20¢
(which is why merchants hate low value credit card purchases).

How long will some of these rewards cards be paying 2% cash back or even
1% cash back to card holders that pay their balance in full each month
and never pay any interest? One 2% card I had discontinued their rebate
program in March. It was good while it lasted though. I did notice a
caveat on merchant accounts that says "Reward cards process at a higher
rate," so they are gouging the merchant, who probably can't distinguish
between rewards and non-rewards cards. Does anyone even use a
non-rewards card any more?

> An ethical lender will not refuse credit on such grounds. The OP will
> be better off looking for another lender if he runs into an unethical
> one.

Ethics has nothing to do with it. If the lender has a limited amount of
credit they are willing to extend then they want to extend it to the
most profitable customers.

== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Tues, Sep 29 2009 6:52 am
From: "Clincher"

>
> Except many lenders (as well as insurance companies) are now turning to
> other, new, unproven "measures" of risk,

Unproven how?

You've got someone who has shunned credit for years suddenly wanting a
credit card. The most likely reasons someone does that are:

1) The OP's stated reason: He doesn't really want credit. He just wants the
appearance of using credit for the sake of gaming his credit score. He'll
only use it as much as necessary for that purpose and prefer debit or cash
otherwise.
2) The applicant has just lost a job, been warned of pending layoffs or
cutbacks, had or thinks he'll have a medical emergency, or otherwise no
longer thinks he can mantain his debt-free lifestyle. So now he suddenly
wants a line of credit.

#1 is a low profit indicator, #2 is a high risk indicator. Either way, it's
not an attractive way to invest your money. With the supply-demand situation
for consumer credit the way it is, banks can probably find dozens of more
profitable ways to invest their money - why would they jump at this?

> with the ONLY real intent
> being to increase their current bottom line.

Um, yes. Do for-profit businesses, especially those with shareholders, have
any other calling?

> Real lenders' ethics
> would dictate that creditworthy, low-risk customers should be
> accommodated. They would also dictate that revenue structures be
> applied equally across the board to same-risk customers, so that a
> creditworthy customer is not refused because he plans on playing by the
> rules (e.g., payment in full each month).

Nope. Credit is not a right - it's a business proposition that either side
is free to decline from participating in if it doesn't fit his financial
goals.

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From: jeff

thuss@dbonhickey.net wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Sep 2009 15:13:18 -0700 (PDT), Sweet Sue
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>
>> On Sep 28, 3:08 pm, martin <martin.secrest...@gmail.com> wrote:
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>>>
>>> tt
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> Hee hee hee.

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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Sep 29 2009 8:30 am
From: martin

On Sep 29, 7:00 am, Iconoclast <goldst...@nym.hush.com> wrote:
> With too many "guest workers" and illegal aliens driving down wages,
> the gap between rich and non-rich is mirroring Latin America and
> India. Only CEO's and high up execs benefit from bringing cheap
> replacement workers to do the jobs Americans do at slave wages.
>
> http://www.comcast.net/articles/finance/20090929/US.Census.Income.Gap/
>
> WASHINGTON — The recession has hit middle-income and poor families
> hardest, widening the economic gap between the richest and poorest
> Americans as rippling job layoffs ravaged household budgets.
>
> The wealthiest 10 percent of Americans — those making more than
> $138,000 each year — earned 11.4 times the roughly $12,000 made by
> those living near or below the poverty line in 2008, according to
> newly released census figures. That ratio was an increase from 11.2 in
> 2007 and the previous high of 11.22 in 2003.
>
> Household income declined across all groups, but at sharper percentage
> levels for middle-income and poor Americans. Median income fell last
> year from $52,163 to $50,303, wiping out a decade's worth of gains to
> hit the lowest level since 1997.
>
> Poverty jumped sharply to 13.2 percent, an 11-year high.
>
> "No one should be surprised at the increased disparity," said Richard
> Freeman, an economist at Harvard University. "Unemployment hurts
> normal workers who do not have the golden parachutes the folks at the
> top have."
>
> Analysts attributed the widening gap to the wave of layoffs in the
> economic downturn that have devastated household budgets. They said
> while the richest Americans may be seeing reductions in executive pay,
> those at the bottom of the income ladder are often unemployed and
> struggling to get by.
>
> Large cities such as Atlanta, Washington, New York, San Francisco,
> Miami and Chicago had the most inequality, due largely to years of
> middle-class flight to the suburbs. Declining industrial cities with
> pockets of well-off neighborhoods, such as Pittsburgh, Cleveland and
> Buffalo, N.Y., also had sharp disparities.
>
> Up-and-coming cities with growing middle-class populations, such as
> Mesa, Ariz., Riverside, Calif., Arlington, Texas, and Henderson, Nev.,
> were among the areas showing the least income differences between rich
> and poor.
>
> It's unclear whether income inequality will continue to worsen in
> major cities, said William H. Frey, a demographer at the Brookings
> Institution. Many Americans are staying put for now in traditional
> cities to look for jobs and because of frozen lines of credit.
>
> "During the years of the housing bubble, there was middle-class
> movement from unaffordable metros with high-income inequality," Frey
> said. "Now that the bubble burst, more of the population may be headed
> back to the high-inequality areas, stemming their middle-class
> losses."
>
> Among other findings:
>
> _Income at the top 5 percent of households — those making $180,000 or
> more — was 3.58 times the median income, the highest since 2006.
>
> _Twenty-one states and the District of Columbia had higher poverty
> rates than the national average, many of them in the South, such as
> Mississippi (21.2 percent), Kentucky, Arkansas and Louisiana (each
> with 17.3 percent). That's compared with 19 states and the District of
> Columbia that ranked above U.S. poverty in 2007.
>
> _Use of food stamps jumped 13 percent last year to nearly 9.8 million
> U.S. households, led by Louisiana, Maine and Kentucky. The increase
> was most evident in households with two or more workers, highlighting
> the impact of the recession on both working families and unemployed
> single people.
>
> _Pharr, Texas, and Flint, Mich., each had more than a third of its
> residents on food stamps, at 38.5 percent and 35.4 percent,
> respectively.
>
> _Between 2007 and 2008, income at the 50th percentile (median) and the
> 10th percentile fell by 3.6 percent and 3.7 percent, respectively,
> compared with a 2.1 percent decline at the 90th percentile. Between
> 1999 and 2008, income at the 50th and 10th percentiles decreased 4.3
> percent and 9 percent, respectively, while income at the 90th
> percentile was statistically unchanged.
>
> _Plano, Texas, a Dallas suburb, had the highest median income among
> larger cities, earning $85,003. Cleveland ranked at the bottom, at
> $26,731.
>
> The findings come as the federal government considers new regulations
> to rein in executive pay at companies in which it has invested.
> President Barack Obama also typically cites the need for higher taxes
> on the wealthy to pay for health care overhaul and other measures,
> arguing that the wealthy have disproportionately benefited from tax
> cuts during the Bush administration.
>
> The 2008 figures come from the Current Population Survey and the
> American Community Survey, which gathers information from 3 million
> households. The government first began tracking household income in
> 1967.
>
> ___
>
> Associated Press writer Frank Bass contributed to this report.

To allow illegal aliens to remain in America in any quantity is a
crime against
it's citizens.

http://www.numbersusa.com/ Numbers USA

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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Sep 29 2009 10:11 am
From: yhalhtet

On Sep 9, 4:51 am, Al <albun...@mailinator.com> wrote:
> On Sep 7, 8:45 pm, yhalhtet <yhalh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
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>
> Your profile says technology, but your post here says dumb ass.
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http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/ef94449f2a4a5cbf?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Sep 29 2009 10:20 am
From: "www.yunfenge.com"

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Tuesday, September 29, 2009

misc.consumers.frugal-living - 26 new messages in 22 topics - digest