Frugal Living: Oct 1, 2007

Monday, October 1, 2007

25 new messages in 15 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: firefox very good
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/b69f7fe51e5abb54?hl=en
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== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 1 2007 1:16 am
From: bearclaw@cruller.invalid

In article <1191185088.728340.254030@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
Al Bundy <MSfortune@mcpmail.com> wrote:

> The sites that will not run are not half baked operations.

I'm not so sure about that

> One is the probate court site for Wayne County Michigan

I assume you are speaking of the "fees" section, in particular the
calculator. As noted on that page, those functions were made
specifically for use with MSIE. Such crippling exclusivity built
deliberately into a website strongly implies either "partnership" with
certain software companies or incompetence on the part of the site's
creator.

That kind of issue may be fine for private websites, but it is
unconscionable for public sites. And it has nothing to do with the
users' browser of choice; it is all about dysfunctional software
unusable to a diverse population.

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 1 2007 1:02 pm
From: Al Bundy

bearc...@cruller.invalid wrote:
> In article <1191185088.728340.254030@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
> Al Bundy <MSfortune@mcpmail.com> wrote:
>
> > The sites that will not run are not half baked operations.
>
> I'm not so sure about that
>
> > One is the probate court site for Wayne County Michigan
>
> I assume you are speaking of the "fees" section, in particular the
> calculator. As noted on that page, those functions were made
> specifically for use with MSIE. Such crippling exclusivity built
> deliberately into a website strongly implies either "partnership" with
> certain software companies or incompetence on the part of the site's
> creator.
>
> That kind of issue may be fine for private websites, but it is
> unconscionable for public sites. And it has nothing to do with the
> users' browser of choice; it is all about dysfunctional software
> unusable to a diverse population.

Entirely wrong. Wayne County has many sites. I have never checked
probate fees. When you assume things you know what that makes of you.
Go back to your mindless pasting.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 1 2007 6:19 pm
From: "Bob F"

"Logan Shaw" <lshaw-usenet@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
news:46fb1a6c$0$18930$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
> Al Bundy wrote:
>
>> It's so much faster than IE at opening pages. Problem is that it won't
>> open some pages and it crashes on a whim.
>
> Crashes on a whim? Not in my experience. I might see a crash maybe
> once a month, and I use it *all* the time.
>
> And generally speaking, if a page can't be viewed in a browser as mainstream
> as Firefox, it's probably because the people who created it don't know what
> they're doing.
>

Or because the browser developers didn't make robust code.

Bob

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Some Dominos Pizza Online Coupons
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/db3751055c307206?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 1 2007 2:48 am
From: Tiger Shark

On Sep 16, 8:43 am, wansf...@googlemail.com wrote:
> On Sep 13, 2:16 pm, wansf...@googlemail.com wrote:
>
> > Codes for discounts on Dominos Pizzas
>
> >http://dominoscoupons.blogspot.com
>
> Do I deliver?
>
> I can do... might expect a nice tip though :o)

Some more coupons going on today

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Free Vitamin Request, Plus Win 1 Year Supply of Vitamins
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/81a77c94e3582a73?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 1 2007 5:04 am
From: eHDMI

Free Vitamin Request, Plus Win 1 Year Supply of Vitamins

Here's a nice offer from the people at VistaVitamin

More Information and Registration Link
http://www.FreebiesPl.us/?p=65

==============================================================================
TOPIC: looking for career change advice
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/c907241b6575fbc4?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 7 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 1 2007 6:15 am
From: Joseph O'Brien

Hi folks. Even though I have never posted here, I lurk so often that I
feel like I'm part of the family. Hope you don't mind me being
pretensious enough to ask for slightly off-topic career advice.

I'm ramping up for a major career change that will require going back
to school full time for about 18 months. Here's a short history of my
life since college:

> 2001: graduated college with a BA
> 2001: started job at really cool ad agency
> 2002: got married
> 2004: abruptly quit job at ad agency to work in totally unrelated
field. Loved the work at New Job, hated the travel.
> 2004: ad agency still had a spot for me and took me back. Developed
position as IT administrator over the next few years.
> 2006: life-changing event made me want to be a nurse. Started taking courses at a community college to fulfill prerequisites.

I am cautiously excited about this new career, because obviously I had
one career change that didn't work out. The ad agency is run by an in-
law. It's really a great place to work. The management is always
willing to work through any problems, there are some terrific and fun
opportunities here, and I could probably work here for the rest of my
life.

The problem has to do with the timing of nursing school. I still have
a few more prerequesites to fill, but they are only offered during the
mornings, starting next month. After that, I wouldn't have any classes
until the 18-month program starts in May. However, once that starts, I
will have to be a full time student.

I'm having trouble decided how to break this to the owners. I feel
like I've already played my "career change" card a couple years ago,
and my position here, while not irreplaceable, would be difficult to
fill due to several highly specialized areas I'm in charge of. They
have actually offered me performance-based time off this year (in
addition to my regular time off), which I consider to be quite a
compliment.

As I see it, I have a few options.
1) Tell them I'm taking some classes that will meet in the morning,
twice a week for 6 weeks, and ask off for those times. Don't mention
nursing school or quitting or anything. If they ask, just say I'm
taking some "natural science" classes to further my education. In the
spring, come clean and tell them I will be returning to school full
time.

2) Tell them I am considering going back to school for an advanced
degree, but before making any rash decisions, I need to take two
prereqs that meet during work hours. After finishing those, tell them
I will definitely be going back to school and help them find a
replacement.

3) Come clean and tell them everything.

My concerns are, of course, that they won't let me take the time off,
or, if this doesn't work out, I won't have a place to work next year.
If I didn't need 5 months between completing my prereqs and going full
time, then I wouldn't mind quitting. Also, I want to be sure to
respect the investment they have made in me over the last 6 years.

I'm probably making a mountain out of a molehill, but I just wanted to
seek some completely anonymous advice. What does the all-knowing
usenet think I should do?

Thanks.
Joseph

== 2 of 7 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 1 2007 7:08 am
From: hchickpea@hotmail.com

On Mon, 01 Oct 2007 06:15:45 -0700, Joseph O'Brien
<obrien1984@hotmail.com> wrote:

> 1) Tell them I'm taking some classes that will meet in the morning,
>twice a week for 6 weeks, and ask off for those times. Don't mention
>nursing school or quitting or anything. If they ask, just say I'm
>taking some "natural science" classes to further my education. In the
>spring, come clean and tell them I will be returning to school full
>time.

This is the only businesslike solution. When you work for a company,
you get a paycheck. That paycheck is the balancing of your work. If
you were to die the following day, accounts would be considered
settled. If the company went out of business the following day,
accounts would be settled.

Most employees who are not executive level have difficulty with the
concept that the employee does not "owe" the company, or the company
"owe" the employee. What you do on your own time is your own damn
business, and any company that attempts to dictate your actions
outside of work, without very specific remuneration above and beyond
normal wages, should be told exactly where to go and how to get there.

Unless you are set to inherit the company, the fact that your in-laws
are involved is only an interpersonal issue. If you want to "do the
right thing" just begin documenting your job and condensing that into
a set of instructions for the next person filling it. You don't need
to let anyone know you are doing this, but it will help during your
exit.

== 3 of 7 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 1 2007 9:54 am
From: Joseph O'Brien

On Oct 1, 10:08 am, hchick...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Mon, 01 Oct 2007 06:15:45 -0700, Joseph O'Brien
>
> <obrien1...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > 1) Tell them I'm taking some classes that will meet in the morning,
> >twice a week for 6 weeks, and ask off for those times. Don't mention
> >nursing school or quitting or anything. If they ask, just say I'm
> >taking some "natural science" classes to further my education. In the
> >spring, come clean and tell them I will be returning to school full
> >time.
>
> This is the only businesslike solution. When you work for a company,
> you get a paycheck. That paycheck is the balancing of your work. If
> you were to die the following day, accounts would be considered
> settled. If the company went out of business the following day,
> accounts would be settled.
>
> Most employees who are not executive level have difficulty with the
> concept that the employee does not "owe" the company, or the company
> "owe" the employee. What you do on your own time is your own damn
> business, and any company that attempts to dictate your actions
> outside of work, without very specific remuneration above and beyond
> normal wages, should be told exactly where to go and how to get there.
>
> Unless you are set to inherit the company, the fact that your in-laws
> are involved is only an interpersonal issue. If you want to "do the
> right thing" just begin documenting your job and condensing that into
> a set of instructions for the next person filling it. You don't need
> to let anyone know you are doing this, but it will help during your
> exit.

Thanks for your reply. Believe me, more than most, I understand the
non-binding nature of employment. I guess what I'm worried most about
is going about it and ending up without a job. I wasn't clear in this,
but the classes are offered only during weekday mornings, twice a week
-- exactly when I'm supposed to be at my desk. I will definitely keep
your advice front of mind.

Thanks.
joseph

== 4 of 7 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 1 2007 1:17 pm
From: "Chloe"

"Joseph O'Brien" <obrien1984@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1191257692.904261.319210@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> On Oct 1, 10:08 am, hchick...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> On Mon, 01 Oct 2007 06:15:45 -0700, Joseph O'Brien
>>
>> <obrien1...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> > 1) Tell them I'm taking some classes that will meet in the morning,
>> >twice a week for 6 weeks, and ask off for those times. Don't mention
>> >nursing school or quitting or anything. If they ask, just say I'm
>> >taking some "natural science" classes to further my education. In the
>> >spring, come clean and tell them I will be returning to school full
>> >time.
>>
>> This is the only businesslike solution. When you work for a company,
>> you get a paycheck. That paycheck is the balancing of your work. If
>> you were to die the following day, accounts would be considered
>> settled. If the company went out of business the following day,
>> accounts would be settled.
>>
>> Most employees who are not executive level have difficulty with the
>> concept that the employee does not "owe" the company, or the company
>> "owe" the employee. What you do on your own time is your own damn
>> business, and any company that attempts to dictate your actions
>> outside of work, without very specific remuneration above and beyond
>> normal wages, should be told exactly where to go and how to get there.
>>
>> Unless you are set to inherit the company, the fact that your in-laws
>> are involved is only an interpersonal issue. If you want to "do the
>> right thing" just begin documenting your job and condensing that into
>> a set of instructions for the next person filling it. You don't need
>> to let anyone know you are doing this, but it will help during your
>> exit.
>
> Thanks for your reply. Believe me, more than most, I understand the
> non-binding nature of employment. I guess what I'm worried most about
> is going about it and ending up without a job. I wasn't clear in this,
> but the classes are offered only during weekday mornings, twice a week
> -- exactly when I'm supposed to be at my desk. I will definitely keep
> your advice front of mind.

You haven't said how your wife feels about all this. Is she a willing
participant in the withholding of information from your employer about your
future career plans? It seems to me the situation would be a lot more cut
and dried without the family angle; in that case I'd agree more with what's
quoted above. But no job or lack thereof is worth damaging your credibility
with people you have a family tie to.

== 5 of 7 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 1 2007 2:20 pm
From: me@privacy.net

>Most employees who are not executive level have difficulty with the
>concept that the employee does not "owe" the company, or the company
>"owe" the employee. What you do on your own time is your own damn
>business, and any company that attempts to dictate your actions
>outside of work, without very specific remuneration above and beyond
>normal wages, should be told exactly where to go and how to get there.

Agree with this totally!

Tell them you need time for school.... but ONLY that
nothing else!!

Discretion is better part of valor

== 6 of 7 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 1 2007 2:22 pm
From: me@privacy.net

>As I see it, I have a few options.
> 1) Tell them I'm taking some classes that will meet in the morning,
>twice a week for 6 weeks, and ask off for those times. Don't mention
>nursing school or quitting or anything. If they ask, just say I'm
>taking some "natural science" classes to further my education. In the
>spring, come clean and tell them I will be returning to school full
>time.

This option is the one

== 7 of 7 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 1 2007 6:23 pm
From: "Don K"

"Joseph O'Brien" <obrien1984@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1191244545.649604.241670@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> As I see it, I have a few options.

> 1) Tell them I'm taking some classes that will meet in the morning,
> twice a week for 6 weeks, and ask off for those times. Don't mention
> nursing school or quitting or anything. If they ask, just say I'm
> taking some "natural science" classes to further my education. In the
> spring, come clean and tell them I will be returning to school full
> time.

Don't give too much notice.

There was a guy at work who thought he was being a nice guy
by giving extra notice that he would be leaving in a couple of months.

Management said no you're not, next Friday will be your last day.

Don

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Gone to the Dogs
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/6032107109473599?hl=en
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== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 1 2007 7:16 am
From: larry

hchickpea@hotmail.com wrote:
> On 1 Oct 2007 02:33:57 GMT, et472@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Michael Black)
> wrote:
>
>
>>Where's the frugal discussion here?
>>
>>"Where's a cheap ISP?" is hardly a frugal issue. It's a consumer
>>issue, and there's a newsgroup for that.
>>
>>Real discussion of frugality is either gone, or barely here.
>>
>>Frugality is more than getting things cheap. And as far as I'm concerned
>>it's far deeper than "should I buy a or b". The people who come
>>here to ask about where to get things cheap will likely never be
>>frugal, because they don't get it.
>
>
> <massive snip>
>
> OFPS. now we have spammers and whingers about the regulars who are
> unfrugal in their rhetoric.
>
> There outta be a newgroup for people like that, so they don't waste
> bandwidth in other newsgroups.

When I save money, that's frugal. And I've saved a LOT of
money from this group! Some of it came from looking at
things in a different way, that came up in some of those
tangential OTs. Also puts a personal touch to the group.

-larry / dallas

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 1 2007 1:24 pm
From: Dennis

On Sun, 30 Sep 2007 22:56:59 -0400, hchickpea@hotmail.com wrote:

>On 1 Oct 2007 02:33:57 GMT, et472@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Michael Black)
>wrote:
>
>>Where's the frugal discussion here?
>>
>>"Where's a cheap ISP?" is hardly a frugal issue. It's a consumer
>>issue, and there's a newsgroup for that.
>>
>>Real discussion of frugality is either gone, or barely here.
>>
>>Frugality is more than getting things cheap. And as far as I'm concerned
>>it's far deeper than "should I buy a or b". The people who come
>>here to ask about where to get things cheap will likely never be
>>frugal, because they don't get it.
>
><massive snip>
>
>OFPS. now we have spammers and whingers about the regulars who are
>unfrugal in their rhetoric.
>
>There outta be a newgroup for people like that, so they don't waste
>bandwidth in other newsgroups.

Maybe someone should create misc.consumers.frugaler-than-thou.wankfest
for the whiners.

Dennis (evil)
--
"There is a fine line between participation and mockery" - Wally

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Removing Wire Rust Stains from White Lampshade
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/128e5fd0ea269234?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 1 2007 9:12 am
From: weft2

I have a very nice curved white lampshade, but parts of the wire frame
behind it have rusted and also rust stained parts of the silky looking
material on the outside of the white lampshade. Not sure if the shade
material is cotton or polyester, but is it possible to remove the
stains, or will it just make the problem worse, since anything wet
applied to the shade will also wet the source of the rust- the wire
frame. Also, won't the stains just come back later, even if they can
be removed? I wonder why the makers of these lampshades don't coat the
wire frame with a light epoxy paint. I've seen many discarded and
lovely lampshades that were in good physical form, except for rust
stains along the wire framework.

Thanks for any info offered

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Constructing collectors for a solar hot water system
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/f0edc7c20179ad49?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 1 2007 10:00 am
From: nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu

Sundug <sunart@netease.net> wrote:

>When I decided to put a flat plate collector system on my house-
>http://www.solarfacts.net/articles/diy/diy_solar_hot_water_heater_-_doug_kalmer.html
>I called plumbers and roofers in the nearest large city, just by looking in
>the yellow pages. Second call founda plumber who had a stack of 3'x13'
>aluminum boxed, copper plumbed collectors, guarenteed not to leak, for $100.

For the whole stack? :-)

>That was over 16 years ago, and it`s still working fine on my roof.

Nice...

>I would call as suggested above, and if that proves fruitless, try putting
>wanted ads in local papers and online. Failing that, and wanting to build
>collectors, consider doing what these manufacturers did- use fin tube as
>the plumbing in the collectors, the same as used in baseboard radiation.

I've never seen a commercial collector with baseboard fin-tube inside.
It's fairly expensive and doesn't collect well at low temp diffs.

>Just paint with flat black high heat, or selective surface coatings.

Ideally, we'd want a small amount of fin-tube inside a large air heater, so
the fin color wouldn't matter much. David Delaney suggested something like
this with passive auto radiators and a vertical poly film airflow separator.

Jeff <dont_bug_me@all.uk> wrote:

>I've looked at a lot of flashing and absolutely everything I saw was
>.01" to .011". Where do you find .018"?

Lowes and Home Depot. With 2'x50'x0.018" rolls of Amerimax 69124 brown/white
coil for $78 and 10'x1/2" copper pipes for $10.85 and 3/4" pipes for $17.62
and 3/4"x3/4"x1/2" copper Ts for $2.34, the materials for a 10'x10' bare
collector with 18 10'x6.4" fins would be about $78+$17.64+18($10.85+2x$2.34)
= $375. Screwing it into 3 4'x8' sheets of 1/2" OSB into 3 4'x8'x1" foil-
polyiso boards onto a south wall might add $60.

A draindown version might look like this, viewed in a fixed font:

10'
in -->-------------------------------------------
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | <-- 18 vertical
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 10' fins
| | | | | | | |4'x8'| | | | | | 4'
57.6"| | a| | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | |..|..|..|..|..|..|..|..|..|..|..|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
|..|..|..| | | | | | | | | | | | 10'
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | |4'x8'| | | | | | 4'
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
57.6"| | a| | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | |..|..|..|..|..|..|..|..|..|..|..|
| | | . | | | | . | | | | | |
| | | . | | b| | . | | |b | | | 19.2"
| | | . | | | | . | | | | | |
| | | . | | | | . | | | | | |
-----------------------------------------|
2' 4' 4' |
out --<-------------------------------------------

Cutting diagram:
19.2" 19.2" 57.6"
--------------------------------
| . . |
| . . a | 2'
| . . |
4' | b . b .....................|
| . . |
| . . a | 2'
| . . |
| . . |
--------------------------------
8'

This might be inside a 12'x12' frame on a south wall covered by 3 $84 4'x12'
sheets of U0.58 Thermaglas Plus twinwall polycarbonate with 80% transmission.

In 250 Btu/h-ft^2 sun and 34 F outdoor air on an average December day in Phila,
140 F fins with lots of water flow would gain 0.8x250x100ft^2 = 20K Btu/h with
144-100 = 44 ft^2 of parasite heating and no heat loss to 140 F frame air, so
back insulation is useless. If we simultaneously collect frame air to warm
the house and lower the frame air temp and raise the overall solar collection
efficiency, back insulation can raise the water collection efficiency.

Nick

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Disney Mobile calls it Quits
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/db605ad0907838b0?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 1 2007 10:14 am
From: dold@86.usenet.us.com

In alt.cellular.cingular Todd Allcock <elecconnec@americaonline.com> wrote:
> use of the service that people DON'T get a feel for what they can do
> with VoIP- you had to pay extra for using softphones, couldn't
> register more than one ATA, etc. Compare that to more typical SIP
> provider that lets me use an ATA at home, while simultaneously using
> my PPC as a "cordless VoIP" phone and also having my laptop USB
> handset plugged in.

Don't forget the bluetooth headsets. Those work fine for cordless VoIP.

Who would one of these "more typical" SIP providers be?

I have been using Cisco Softphone, not at all "typical", but it's what I
have. My office deskphone and my laptop softphone were interchangeable as
nicely as I could want, except that "missed" calls didn't show up on the
softphone.

Now my Cisco system is going away. The official replacement is
Callvantage.

Callvantage seems Vonage-like, in that you are tied to one ATA, with
silliness about E911 registering if there is a disturbance on the network.
The softphone not only costs extra, it is a different number! The quality
of the CallVantage calls is poor enough that it isn't suitable for a home
phone replacement, but it is cheap, at $19.99 for unlimited US-LD and good
rates worldwide.

Cellphone coverage isn't good enough to use as a replacement here, without
a T-Mobile-like WiFi adjunct.

I might forward to a separate Callvantage softphone for laptop travel use.

I've also thought about a Skype handheld like the Netgear SPH200W-100NAS,
but haven't even begun to research that. My attempts at SkypeOut were less
than satisfying a couple of years ago. I use Skype PC-PC quite well
worldwide.

> The "problem" with VoIP is that while it's cheaper than a landline, it's
> not as reliable, as high quality, or as easy to use. Most

I had no problem with reliability, but quality is poor on Callvantage. My
housemates didn't like 10 digit dialing. Not 7, not 11, 10.

> homeowners wouldn't know how to properly wire an ATA into their house
> wiring for seamless "plug a phone into any existing jack and get the

Callvantage was easy to wire as a whole-house replacement for landline.
Unplug one wire, plug in another wire. No drama, no skills required.

> Personally I find VoIP useful as a second line, or for international
> travel, but I dobn't consider myself typical in that respect. The people
> I know using Vonage are simply trying to save a few bucks compared to the
> local telco service.

I like Cisco VoIP because no one knows where I am ... I am always "at my
desk". In the case of a business phone, 4 digit dialing, conference,
voicemail, transfers, Caller ID, are all right there, on either the
hardphone or softphone.

--
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley Lake, CA, USA GPS: 38.8,-122.5

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Apples
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/408e635a462df7fd?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 1 2007 2:00 pm
From: PaPaPeng

My replies (in another NG) to the original question may be of interest
to this group.
=============

On Mon, 01 Oct 2007 05:34:17 -0700, "charleymccormick@gmail.com"
<charleymccormick@gmail.com> wrote:

Having spent decades working to improve the safety of our domestic
produce by creating standards for farmers in America, we have now
thrown out all those advancements by importing our food supply.
Pesticides are proven to impact the neurological system, and this is a
great threat to children who's systems are still undeveloped. With the
increase in disorders such as autism, and new studies linking
pesticides to increased susceptibility to autism, we need to examine
the possibility that we are poisoning our children. One example is the
Chinese apple industry, which did not exist 15 years ago, and now
dominates the world producers. Children consume the majority of apple
juice world wide, and we should wonder how the Chinese managed to
build this industry so quickly. Check out www.chineseapplejuice.com

On Mon, 01 Oct 2007 05:34:17 -0700, "charleymccormick@gmail.com"
<charleymccormick@gmail.com> wrote:

>One example is the
>Chinese apple industry, which did not exist 15 years ago, and now
>dominates the world producers. Children consume the majority of apple
>juice world wide, and we should wonder how the Chinese managed to
>build this industry so quickly. Check out www.chineseapplejuice.com

Saw a TV report somewhere. I think it was PBS on "China Rising".

The part that really bamboozled me was that prime apples from China
had their fruit buds protected individually in a paper bag (complete
with printed logo) by workers attaching these bags by hand. The
apples then grow to maturity protected from insect attacks and from
insecticide sprays. And probably the vagaries of weather. Ingenuous.
Two major problems perhaps four solved in one stroke. The fourth
problem solved is when harvested the apples are aleady wrapped for the
market. Maybe fifth, sixth, seventh and eight advantages too as the
apples will be protected from human skin contact at harvest and do not
require washing or post plucking quality control as the plucker can do
the QA at the time he plucks the apple. This virtuous circle includes
minimal loss from placing unsuitable apples on the shelves. Sub
quality apples go to make apple juice without having to be sorted
again at the factory.

China can do this because of the availability of plentiful cheap
labor. The same laborers who so carefully placed the paper bags over
the buds can also inspect them for ripeness when they harvest the
apples. The best ones are plucked and the rawer ones left on the tree
to ripen to full juice and texture. So you have consistent best
quality in every batch and minimal loss from overripe fruits or bad
customer satisfaction from unripe ones. Even without the paper
wrapper for the buds part here is no machine harvestor that can beat
this kind of fruit orchard husbandry.

I probably embellished the advantages of the Chinese innovations from
point thee onwards (ie not in the TV report) but I defy you to fault
my arguments.

I am guessing here but I imagine, or maybe it was in that TV report,
the another advantage China has is that you can grow apple trees on
slopes quite useless for grain farming or anything else. The vast
scarred loess hills of north central China would be ideal for fruit
orchards. I think there are indications that these same lands are
also ideal for grape growing and the wine and liquor inductries of the
other countries are at risk. Like apples grapes will benefit greatly
from human husbandry and no machine can compete with that kind of
care.

There you are. There is no way the apple orchards of America can get
enough Mexican migrant workers or pay them enough to do this kind of
work. So their apples were left to rot on the trees. A few years of
that and it was necessary to uproot those trees. I can't remember if
rotting apples would harbor and promote any agricultural diseases.

On Mon, 01 Oct 2007 17:16:52 GMT, PaPaPeng <PaPaPeng@yahoo.com> wrote:

>China can do this because of the availability of plentiful cheap
>labor. The same laborers who so carefully placed the paper bags over
>the buds can also inspect them for ripeness when they harvest the
>apples.

I can't remember if they also hand pollinate the buds, an altogether
not impossible labor intensive procedure that guarantees quality.
This can be easily done and the laborer can immediately cover that
pollinated bud with the paper bag. This way there will not be any
competitive pollination by wild pollen, a surefire way of assuring
genetic purity. It also ensures that practically every flower will
produce a fruit. The paper bag keeps out insect infestations while it
is growing. This intensive care will also let workers spot at an early
stage any infestations or botanical distress that can be treated
promptly. Early treatment requires less aggressive intervention .
That in turn will minimize control efforts, minimize costs and is
ecologically friendlier.

As I said it before boggles my mind that anyone could come up with
such a scheme to operate an orchard industry. I think the original
scheme was to make work in an otherwise poor countryside. When one
does virtuous things the benefits just multiply. I think the poor
third world countries should practice something similar, make use of
idle labor and literally work like busy bees to enhance their fruit
and squash production for example.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Frugal Living At A High Standard
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/5f468aa1fe480ffe?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 1 2007 3:21 pm
From: CashFlowNow77@gmail.com

I live very frugal, yet that is because I took on a part-time job
surfing the web... and so can you! Checkout the site and see how I
made $10K in my first 35 days. www.parttimesimplecash.info

==============================================================================
TOPIC: TIME FOR YOUR CREDIT REPORT
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/cb75ea16bbfff440?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 1 2007 4:32 pm
From: DevBasic Marketing Support

For all of your credit information needs, easy access
to critical information about the credit bureaus,
building credit, and your rights as a consumer.

http://www.illinois.devbasic.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=37&Itemid=9

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Home safe odors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/1b82176d55c73873?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 1 2007 5:00 pm
From: Marsha

josh@phred.org wrote:
> In article <fdorrk$jv2$2@news.datemas.de>, mas@xeb.net says...
>
>>The contents of my small home safe feel slightly damp
>>and they smell odd. Does anyone have any suggestions
>>on solving this problem?
>
>
> "Crystals" type cat litter is silica gel, the same stuff sold in
> overpriced little packets for drying things. Buy a 4lb jar of it, pour
> it into a dry cloth bag (or a clean pillowcase) and put it in the safe.
>
> Bake it in the oven overnight to dry it out occasionally.
>

You're serious...this would work?

Marsha/Ohio

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 1 2007 5:04 pm
From: Marsha

Dennis wrote:
>>>"Marsha" <mas@xeb.net> wrote in message news:fdorrk$jv2$2@news.datemas.de...
>>>>The contents of my small home safe feel slightly damp and they smell odd. Does anyone
>>>>have any suggestions on solving this problem?

>
> There are active dehumidifiers that are made to work inside safes.
> Goldenrod is one brand. It is essentially a very low wattage radiant
> electric heater. I have one and it seems to work, but my safe is in a
> dry (but unheated) spot to start with.
>
>
> Dennis (evil)

The safe is very small, 14" x 10" x 6". Would that
work in a safe that size?

Marsha/Ohio

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Frugal air travel tips
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/f74cce039262a897?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 1 2007 5:09 pm
From: William Souden

While waiting at the airport instead of paying for wireless net
access sit near the members lounge and you might get a signal,

Request a seat near the rear. Many people choose seats up front so
they can get off first. You have a better chance of getting a middle
seat empty or maybe all three if you are near the rear. Never take the
last row as those seats do not recline but as you take off check to see
if those seats are empty. If all three are vacant you can lie down and
sleep. Keep checking the airlines web site to see what seats are open.

If you have a long delay politely request access to the members
lounge. The most that can happen is a polite "no".

Pack your own food-sandwiches from home, stuff from the deli and only
but water at the airport. You eat better than your fellow passengers and
do it on your schedule. I can not recall the last time I took anything
beyond soda,coffee or juice on a plane.

If you are renting a car the off-airport places have better prices.
If you are not renting check options besides taxis. At Newark Airport NJ
Transit take you right to Penn Station in NYC.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: MAKE $250,000 IN WEEKS - AS SEEN ON OPRAH AND 20/20
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/3d6b1e021324068a?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 1 2007 5:41 pm
From: fox399

As seen on Oprah and 20/20- Make 250,000 in weeks : $6
Location: North Royalton , OH , United States 44133

MAKE $250,000 IN WEEKS - AS SEEN ON OPRAH & 20/20
**Proven by various, highly-respected U.S. TV and Radio programs as
being 100% legal, feasible and true. **
**Oprah Winfrey and ABC's investigation team 20/20 also prove it can
be done.***

IF A 15 YEAR OLD BOY COULD MAKE $71,000 IN JUST 5 WEEKS AND OTHERS
$250,000 IN A FEW MORE WEEKS -- SO CAN YOU !!!

THIS REALLY CAN MAKE YOU EASY MONEY!! IT WORKS!!! BUT YOU HAVE TO
FOLLOW The LETTER FOR IT TO WORK!!!! THIS IS NOT A PYRAMID SCAM!! :
I came across an article similar to this that said you could make
thousands of dollars within weeks with only an initial investment of
$6.00!

...here's how!

PayPal verifies that this $6 investment program is 100% legal
and is a big hit this year see their note below or ask them
directly...

For a simple investment of 15-30 minutes and just $6, it is 100% worth
it to make thousands so quickly.
This is not another scam that takes lots of your hard earned money;
this is a no risk investment that will make you thousands of dollars
very easily and quickly.

If you would like to take part in this scheme or would like a bit
more
information then please see the information below that was kindly
donated to me.

Thank you for using PayPal!"
Turn $6 into $15,000 in only 30 days...here's how! You have most
likely seen or heard about this project on TV programs such as 20/20
and Oprah or you may have read about it in the Wall Street Journal.

If not, here it is below - revealed to you in step-by-step detail.

This program is by no means new.

It has been in existence in many forms for at least a decade.

In the early days, it required a lot more time and effort, as well as
an
investment of a few hundred dollars.

However, thanks to PayPal and the Internet,

the investment is now virtually ZERO!

And what's more, the entire process is FASTER, EASIER,
and MORE LUCRATIVE than it has EVER been!

I found this on a bulletin board and decided to try it:
Make Money with your PayPal account as shown on Oprah!
"A little while back, I was browsing through news groups and came
across an article similar to this that said you could make thousands
of dollars within weeks with only an initial investment of $6.00!

So I thought, "Yeah right, this must be a scam", but like most of us,
I was curious, so I kept reading. Anyway, it said that you send only
$1.00 to each of the 6 email addresses stated in this article.

You then place your name and address at the bottom of the list at the
# 6th position and email it to your friends as well as post this
message (with your email address in the list) to at least 200
newsgroups.

(There are hundreds of thousands)

No catch that was it.

So after thinking it over, and talking to a few people first, I
thought
about trying it. I figured "what have I got to lose except $6.00,
right?"

So I invested the measly $6.00

Well GUESS WHAT!!

Within days, I started getting money coming into my Pay Pal account!

I was shocked!

I figured it would end soon, but the money just kept coming in.

In my first week; I made about $25.00, which means that 25 people
joined the group after they saw my posted messages.
By the end of the second week I had made a total of over $1000.00!

In the third week I had over $10,000.00 and it's still growing.

This is now my fourth week and I have made a total of just over
$42,000.00 and it's still coming in rapidly.

It's certainly worth $6.00, and the few minutes it took to join
PayPal.

I have spent more than that on the lottery!

Let me tell you how this works and most importantly, why it works.
Also, make sure you print a copy of this article NOW, so you can get
the information off of it, as you need it.

I promise you that if you follow the directions EXACTLY, that you will
start making more money than you thought possible by doing something
so easy!

SUGGESTION:
Read this entire message carefully!
Follow the simple directions and watch the money come in, it's that
easy! It's legal. And, your investment is only $6.00.

IMPORTANT: This is not a rip-off; it is not indecent; it is not
illegal; and it is virtually no risk-it really works! If all of the
following
instructions are adhered to, you will receive extraordinary
dividends.

AGAIN, PLEASE NOTE:

Follow these directions EXACTLY,

and $20,000 or more can be yours in 4 to 6 weeks.

This program remains successful because of the honesty and integrity
of the participants.

Please continue its success by carefully adhering to the
instructions.

In this business your product is not solid and tangible, it's a
service.

You are in the business of developing Mailing Lists.

Many large corporations are happy to pay big bucks for quality lists.

However, the money made from the mailing lists is secondary to the
income, which is made from people like you and me asking to be
included in that list.

Here are the 4 easy steps to success:

STEP 1:
Take a few minutes to join PayPal: www.paypal.com

PayPal

The Internet's most trusted Internet banking system for your future
income.

When creating your PayPal account make sure you use the same Email
address as your user name in the list below so people can send money
to your account.

STEP 2
Once you have a PayPal account running. Send $1.00 dollar donation
from your PayPal account to THE FIRST e-mail address on the list along
with a note saying "Please add me to your list". Then use PayPal to
post $1 to EACH of the additional 5 Email Addresses below because you
pay people with an email address in PayPal.

To do this you may need to use a credit card, which is very easy, and
secure so nobody but PayPal may see it.

If you don't have a credit card show this great lucrative offer to
someone that has one and get them to help you pay the $6.

What you are doing is creating a service.

This is absolutely legal!

You are requesting a legitimate service and you are paying for it!

Like most of us I was a little skeptical and a little worried about
the
legal aspects of it all.

But I looked around and did some homework and found it was perfectly
legal.

Here are the 6 individual Email addresses that you have to send $1 to
through PayPal for this to work properly and for you to receive
money.

(If you don't send the money and decide to post the message with your
name in it anyway, PayPal will instantly pick this up and terminate
your account, immediately, besides the other penalties!!

If you did this you could get into serious trouble because it is
fraud. (So follow the instructions and post the $6 and you will make
lots of money with no hassles.)

Now send $1 to each of these following emails - addresses through your
PayPal account and pay $1 to each the following 6 email- addresses.

These email addresses are PayPal IDs or usernames.

1.) tracym605@verizon.net
2.) Resqfd12@yahoo.com
3.) mr_garay@sbcglobal.net
4.) siberphun@yahoo.com
5.) kayciewhite@yahoo.com
6.) fox399@aol.com

STEP 3
Now,... after paying $1.00 to each of the email placements above, take
the #1 Email Address off the list, move the other Email Addresses up
(6 becomes 5, 5 becomes 4, etc.) and add Your Email Address as number
6 on the list.

STEP 4
Change anything you need to, but try to keep this article as close to
the original as possible.

Now, post your amended article to at least 200 newsgroups (there are
thousands of groups).

And email your message to as many people you can. Remember, the more
you post and email the more money you make! This is perfectly legal!

PLEASE REMEMBER

this program remains successful because of the honesty and integrity
of the participants and by their carefully adhering to the
directions.

You are simply paying into a money making chain of participants and if
the chain is broken you are screwing someone else out of their fair
share.

So, as each person who joins the family and the directions are
followed, six members will be reimbursed for their participation as a
List Developer with one dollar each.

You then insert your Email Address into the list and it will move up
geometrically.

So that when your name reaches the #1 position you will have
potentially received thousands of dollars into your account!!!

What an opportunity for only a total of $6.00!!

$1 for each of the first six people listed above

To begin with, please send you're joining fee now (which is $1.00 to
each email address listed above) then add your own Email Address to
the list and you're in business!

HOW TO POST TO NEWS GROUPS:
Use Netscape or Internet Explorer and try searching for various
newsgroups (on-line forums, message boards, chat sites, discussions.)

Log on any search engine like yahoo.com, google.com, altavista.com,
excite.com, etc., then search with the subject ''millionaire message
board'' or ''money making message board'' or ''employment message
board'' or ''money making discussions'' or ''money making forum'' or
''business message board'' etc.

You will find thousands and thousands of message boards.

Click on them one by one and you will find the option 'post a new
message'. Then Post this article as a 'new message' by highlighting
the text of this letter and selecting copy then paste from the edit
menu.

Fill in the Subject, this will be the header that everyone sees as
they
scroll through the list of postings in a particular group, click the
post
message button.

You're done with your first one! It only takes about 60 seconds to
complete
postings on message boards after you catch on.

REMEMBER, THE MORE NEWSGROUPS YOU POST IN, THE MORE MONEY YOU WILL
MAKE!!

BUT YOU HAVE TO POST A MINIMUM OF 200!

That is it!!

You will begin receiving money in your account from around the world
within days!

JUST MAKE SURE ALL THE ADDRESSES ARE CORRECT.

Now the WHY part out of 200 postings:

Say I receive only 5 replies (a very low example).

So then I made $5.00 with my name at #6 on the letter.

Each of the 5 persons who just sent me $1.00 make the MINIMUM 200
postings, each with my name at # 5 and only 5 persons respond to each
of the original 5, this is an additional $25.00 for me.

Now those 24 each make 200 minimum posts with my name at #4 and only 5
replies each.

This brings in an additional $125.00.

Those 125 persons turn around and post the MINIMUM 200 with my name at
#3 and receive 5 replies each, I will make an additional $625.00.

Ok, now here is the FUN part, each of those 625 people post a MINIMUM
of 200 letters with my name at #2 and they receive 5 replies each.

That just made me $3,125.00!!!

Those 3125 persons will all deliver this message to 200 newsgroups
with my name at #1 and if still 5 persons per 200 react, I will
receive an additional $15,625.00!!

With an investment of only $6.00!!

A - M - A - Z - I - N - G - !!

When your name is no longer on the list, you just take the latest
posting in the newsgroups, and send out another $6.00 to Email
Addresses using PayPal on the list, putting your name at number 6
again.

And start posting again.

The thing to remember is that thousands of people all over the world
are joining the Internet and reading these articles every day.

JUST LIKE YOU ARE NOW!!

So, can you afford $6.00 to see if it really works??

I think so!

People have said, "what if the plan is played out and no one sends you
the money? So what!

What are the chances of that happening when there are tons of new
honest users and new honest people who are joining the internet and
newsgroups everyday and are willing to give it a try.

Remember what goes around comes around, if you don't make the initial
$6 investment you won't receive any of the benefit.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Did fluorescent bulbs save you money?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/8aa0ba4f7349251c?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 1 2007 6:09 pm
From: "Bob F"

"Greggie Gibson" <Greggie_Gibson@noonecares.com> wrote in message
news:Xns99B9C7E45241TBAnoonecarescom@85.214.62.108...
> "Don K" <dk@dont_bother_me.com> wrote in
> news:ivWdnbDErNW7w2HbnZ2dnUVZ_sOrnZ2d@comcast.com:
>
>> "Daniel T." <daniel_t@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>> news:daniel_t-63AFE2.16395127092007@earthlink.vsrv-
> sjc.supernews.net...
>>> James <j0069bond@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> My father used to turn off unnecessary lights. After converting to
>>>> fluorescent bulbs he didn't turn off lights, had some on all night,
>>>> and even left a few on 24/7. Now fluorescent bulbs might only take
>>>> a quarter of the energy but he certainly had the lights on more than
>>>> 4 times as long.
>>>
>>> Good for him, he was able to increase the number of hours of light
>>> usage while substantially lowering the cost of that usage per hour.
>>
>> Just because light was being generated, doesn't mean light was being
>> used.
>>
>> If the light is wasted, then all the power and cost to generate that
>> light is wasted too.
>>
>> Don
>>
>>
>
> Unless it is winter and the heat of the wasted energy contributes to
> keeping him warm

At a cost of only twice his natural gas heat energy.

Bob

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Google Groups: http://groups.google.com?hl=en

15 new messages in 11 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: What (rodent?) did this???
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/6860ccc82111612e?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Sep 30 2007 6:27 pm
From: "Bear"

Mice. They'll eat anything. They are all coming inside about now. If you go
with bait traps, keep them out of the reach of pets and kids.

> Hello,
>
> Recently I found something odd had happened to
> the anttraps in my finished basement. The traps
> were under the hot water radiator pipes.
>
>
> You can see some pictures I took here:
>
> http://www.geocities.com/condor_222/anttrap/
>
> http://www.geocities.com/condor_222/anttrap/dsc_2289.jpg
> http://www.geocities.com/condor_222/anttrap/dsc_2290.jpg
> http://www.geocities.com/condor_222/anttrap/dsc_2291.jpg
> http://www.geocities.com/condor_222/anttrap/dsc_2292.jpg
> - as I found them
>
>
> http://www.geocities.com/condor_222/anttrap/dsc_2293.jpg
> http://www.geocities.com/condor_222/anttrap/dsc_2294.jpg
> - One corner was chewed out on each of the traps
>
>
> http://www.geocities.com/condor_222/anttrap/dsc_2296.jpg
> - there were lots of pieces of plastic remaining.
> - note the size and round shape.
>
>
> I thought this was really odd. What would be going for
> an ant trap? What would chew out the corners, and leave
> pieces the shape of crescent moons? A snake?
>
>
> Any ideas??
>

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Sep 30 2007 6:28 pm
From: Dennis

On 30 Sep 2007 17:27:50 GMT, et472@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Michael Black)
wrote:

>But that doesn't address the problem. A healthy group always
>has newcomers coming in, their involvement refreshes the group,
>adding new viewpoints and challenging the oldtimers in their
>thoughts. The more cluttered a newsgroup, the less likely
>a newcomer will come in. And of course, all the junk sets
>the standard, "well he posted about his business, so I was
>quite certain it was allowed".

Fortunately we have you here to tirelessly set everyone straight on
what is and is not appropriate to post.

Dennis (evil)
--
"There is a fine line between participation and mockery" - Wally

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Sep 30 2007 7:33 pm
From: et472@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Michael Black)

Dennis (dgw80@hotmail.com) writes:
> On 30 Sep 2007 17:27:50 GMT, et472@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Michael Black)
> wrote:
>
>>But that doesn't address the problem. A healthy group always
>>has newcomers coming in, their involvement refreshes the group,
>>adding new viewpoints and challenging the oldtimers in their
>>thoughts. The more cluttered a newsgroup, the less likely
>>a newcomer will come in. And of course, all the junk sets
>>the standard, "well he posted about his business, so I was
>>quite certain it was allowed".
>
> Fortunately we have you here to tirelessly set everyone straight on
> what is and is not appropriate to post.
>
So I shouldn't fight it, I should leave?

Where's the frugal discussion here?

"Where's a cheap ISP?" is hardly a frugal issue. It's a consumer
issue, and there's a newsgroup for that.

Real discussion of frugality is either gone, or barely here.

Frugality is more than getting things cheap. And as far as I'm concerned
it's far deeper than "should I buy a or b". The people who come
here to ask about where to get things cheap will likely never be
frugal, because they don't get it. If they need someone to lead
them to the best buy, then someone else can lead them to some completely
non-frugal thing. ANd they certainly will keep asking, like the
resident troll and that Vijay guy, because they think it stops
at "getting a good deal".

Being frugal is not about consuming, which all those posts basically
make it seem like.

It's about making decisions, like the woman who was frugal in her
life so she could go off and speed skate. It's about big decisions
like how do we live our lives and what's important to us, and it's about
small barely noticeable decisions like how we buy toothpaste. But
the process is far more important than handing someone an answer.

The people who come with their really large salaries and wonder
how they are in debt, they suffer because they don't have a frugal
mentality. But often it's clear that they "don't want to fuss
with all those decisions", so all the bad choices add up. ANd
they can't make the leap to being frugal because the focus is
on buying no name mustard instead of name brand mustard, when
the real process should be explained without any specific items.

"How do I bake bread?" is not a frugal issue. There are newsgroups
that cover the topic. I read them, and sometimes even post. Frugality
is about making the leap to doing things yourself, and making an
informed decision over whether there is value in doing a given thing
rather than spending money.

I read newsgroups for the topic they are supposed to be about. If
I want to discuss some other topic I go elsewhere. If I wanted a club,
I'd join one. If I wanted to hang out with people, I might as well
stay in the local newsgroup where it might even lead to hanging out
with real people.

But a newsgroup loses when it morphs into something else, and the people
who were there because of the topic of the newsgroup leave, because
then they aren't around when people ask questions that they can reply
to.

The people who post the most don't even notice, because they are really
quite happy with the state of the newsgroup. They don't care, because
the topic of the newsgroup is pretty irrelevant to them.

There is very little here. Take off your rose-colored glasses, and
even if you take out the "freebies" and the spam, you'll discover
that really very little addresses frugality. It's about buying cheap.

Micahel

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Sep 30 2007 7:56 pm
From: hchickpea@hotmail.com

On 1 Oct 2007 02:33:57 GMT, et472@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Michael Black)
wrote:

>Where's the frugal discussion here?
>
>"Where's a cheap ISP?" is hardly a frugal issue. It's a consumer
>issue, and there's a newsgroup for that.
>
>Real discussion of frugality is either gone, or barely here.
>
>Frugality is more than getting things cheap. And as far as I'm concerned
>it's far deeper than "should I buy a or b". The people who come
>here to ask about where to get things cheap will likely never be
>frugal, because they don't get it.

OFPS. now we have spammers and whingers about the regulars who are
unfrugal in their rhetoric.

There outta be a newgroup for people like that, so they don't waste
bandwidth in other newsgroups.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Basic Bare Bones ISP ??
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/60e9d2967289daf6?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Sep 30 2007 12:16 pm
From: Todd Allcock

At 30 Sep 2007 05:26:20 -0700 <RJ> wrote:

> Check out LOCALNET if you can.
> They're pretty much everywhaer.
> Great service, newsgroups, $9.95/mo, no ads,
> and $99 ( I think ) if you pay by the year.

Don't forget freedialup.org if you live in New England. It doesn't
get much better than free!

"I don't need my cell phone to play video games or take pictures
or double as a Walkie-Talkie; I just need it to work. Thanks for
all the bells and whistles, but I could communicate better with
ACTUAL bells and whistles." -Bill Maher 9/25/2003

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== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Sep 30 2007 7:06 pm
From: Dennis

On Sun, 30 Sep 2007 15:45:52 -0400, Marsha <mas@xeb.net> wrote:

>Don K wrote:
>
>> "Marsha" <mas@xeb.net> wrote in message news:fdorrk$jv2$2@news.datemas.de...
>>
>>>The contents of my small home safe feel slightly damp and they smell odd. Does anyone
>>>have any suggestions on solving this problem?
>>
>>
>> Get a dehumidifier.
>>
>> Don
>>
>
>I don't think it would fit inside the safe ;-)

There are active dehumidifiers that are made to work inside safes.
Goldenrod is one brand. It is essentially a very low wattage radiant
electric heater. I have one and it seems to work, but my safe is in a
dry (but unheated) spot to start with.

Dennis (evil)
--
I'm a hands-on, footloose, knee-jerk head case. -George Carlin

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Sep 30 2007 8:11 pm
From:

In article <fdorrk$jv2$2@news.datemas.de>, mas@xeb.net says...
> The contents of my small home safe feel slightly damp
> and they smell odd. Does anyone have any suggestions
> on solving this problem?

"Crystals" type cat litter is silica gel, the same stuff sold in
overpriced little packets for drying things. Buy a 4lb jar of it, pour
it into a dry cloth bag (or a clean pillowcase) and put it in the safe.

Bake it in the oven overnight to dry it out occasionally.

--
josh@phred.org is Joshua Putnam
<http://www.phred.org/~josh/>
Braze your own bicycle frames. See
<http://www.phred.org/~josh/build/build.html>

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Sep 30 2007 7:35 pm
From: Todd Allcock

At 30 Sep 2007 09:10:25 -0700 SMS wrote:

> Vonage provided a valuable service with its saturation advertising.
> It made users aware of VOIP, and the ways it can be used.

I agree with the first statement, but not the second. Vonage ads did
put VoIP in the pblic eye, but they're relatively restrictive with
use of the service that people DON'T get a feel for what they can do
with VoIP- you had to pay extra for using softphones, couldn't
register more than one ATA, etc. Compare that to more typical SIP
provider that lets me use an ATA at home, while simultaneously using
my PPC as a "cordless VoIP" phone and also having my laptop USB
handset plugged in.

> People that travel a lot like these services since they can use
> VOIP to have a "local" phone number when traveling, and use the
> hotel's free wireless for calls.

But not (easily) with Vonage. The Vonage box has to plug into a
physical router or DSL/cable modem (not WiFi) and AFAIK, the only
softphone is a physical USB key registered to your service.

> However the problem was that a) Vonage was too expensive

Hardly- with taxes and fees, my local landline service is around
$35/month- so even without the unlimited LD it's save me some money.

> b) it had little appeal outside the market for people that used
> it as a traveling number type of service.

Again, I disagree- your cellphone easily provdes a "local number when
travelig" and doesn't require lugging around VoIP ATAs or firing up a
laptop.

The attraction of VoIP is cheap landline replacement.

> Few people would ever spend anywhere close to $25/month on long
> distance.

True, but that same $25 includes your local service as well. Again,
using my example, I'd be nearly $10 ahead with Vonage forgetting LD
(which I typically use my Cellphne for.)

> That's 1000 minutes on OneSuite, 1250 minutes on TalkLoop. And
> of course most people have unlimited off-peak long distance on
> their cell phone plans.

True.
The "problem" with VoIP is that while it's cheaper than a landline,
it's not as reliable, as high quality, or as easy to use. Most
homeowners wouldn't know how to properly wire an ATA into their house
wiring for seamless "plug a phone into any existing jack and get the
VoIP line" service, many broadband connections occasionally need a
modem or router reboot- it's all a little too "techie" compared to
traditional POTS service. Plus, given the number of us using DSL,
which generally "includes" a POTS line for only a few bucks more, any
VIP savings are marginalized.

Personally I find VoIP useful as a second line, or for international
travel, but I dobn't consider myself typical in that respect. The
people I know using Vonage are simply trying to save a few bucks
compared to the local telco service.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Sep 30 2007 11:35 pm
From: ultimauw@hotmail.com

On Sep 30, 9:10 am, SMS <scharf.ste...@geemail.com> wrote:
> Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
> > In article <Xns99B98C079B5F3noonehome...@208.49.80.253>,
> > Larry <no...@home.com> wrote:
>
> >> Of much greater interest from the webpage is the one on Vonage's demise:
> >>http://www.thestreet.com/s/vonages-vanishing-
> >> act/newsanalysis/techtelecom/10381531.html?
>
> >> They're TOAST! My condolences to Vonage users stuck with useless equipment
> >> once the company goes dark.
>
> > Bah. Us Sunrocket customers are old hat at that. It's yesterday's news.
>
> Vonage provided a valuable service with its saturation advertising. It
> made users aware of VOIP, and the ways it can be used. People that
> travel a lot like these services since they can use VOIP to have a
> "local" phone number when traveling, and use the hotel's free wireless
> for calls.
>
> However the problem was that a) Vonage was too expensive, and b) it had
> little appeal outside the market for people that used it as a traveling
> number type of service. Few people would ever spend anywhere close to
> $25/month on long distance. That's 1000 minutes on OneSuite, 1250
> minutes on TalkLoop. And of course most people have unlimited off-peak
> long distance on their cell phone plans.

I think Cell Phones are starting to kill off the land lines en masse.
Just 10 years ago, it was *rare* to see anybody except business folks
with cell phones, now there are so ubiquitous that even pre-teens
usualy have one. The only appeal of services like Vonage is the price,
but since now cell phones are so common and cheap. land lines
including VoIP looks like yesterdays technology headed to the heap of
history. (On that note, it's getting hard to find a pay phone period,.
let alone a *working* one these days, and I live in Los Angeles!).

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Debt Consolidation and Debt Settlement
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/a5bcbce637c378c9?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 29 2007 7:48 am
From: Jeff

Michael Black wrote:
> James (j0069bond@hotmail.com) writes:
>
>>My father used to turn off unnecessary lights. After converting to
>>fluorescent bulbs he didn't turn off lights, had some on all night,
>>and even left a few on 24/7. Now fluorescent bulbs might only take a
>>quarter of the energy but he certainly had the lights on more than 4
>>times as long.
>>
>
> You're comparing apples and oranges.
>
> Just because he leaves them on all the time doesn't mean everyone does.

Many might.

I leave a few on almost all the time. I leave a 6W light on in the
bathroom for example. Not a lot of power but after a month it's over 4
kWhr. Now if it was incandescent I would have turned that off, at least
part of the reason being that incandescent lights don't last anywhere
near as long. Those fluorescents just keep going and going and you don't
have to worry about not having a working light when you need it
(although many have significant warm up times).

Now, the bathroom isn't the only place I keep a light on. And I
suspect many others do the same.

So leaving that light on may cost me 35 cents (per month) rather than
a buck and change. Of course higher wattage CFs will cost much more. I
just did a tour and found three lights on (~26W) and they had probably
been on quite a while. I did turn two off and I have been more conscious
of turning off lights when I leave.

So, you have a few questions to answer.

What does conservation mean to you? If it's larger than saving a few
bucks out of a much larger electric bill then it's worthwhile to treat
those lights similar to incandescents.

Are you (or Dad) leaving whole rooms well lit rather than just enough
light to pass through? That could be costing the better part of $10/room
per month.

I'd say most Americans don't know where their power is being used.
Many are still stuck on consumption anyways...

Jeff

>
>
> Michael
>

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Hypo-allergenic liquid laundry detergent
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/e3d2a8c9a679f091?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Sep 30 2007 11:50 pm
From: "aesthete8@hotmail.com"

Any favorite?

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Tips for frugal living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/e6973a7e08978588?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Sep 30 2007 11:57 pm
From: "aesthete8@hotmail.com"

http://finance.yahoo.com/expert/article/generationdebt/46569