Frugal Living: Dec 13, 2008

Saturday, December 13, 2008

misc.consumers.frugal-living - 25 new messages in 8 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Purchase All Available US Autos
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/8da7acb0e572db51?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 17 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 4:19 pm
From: lorad

On Dec 13, 4:13 pm, lorad <lorad...@cs.com> wrote:
> On Dec 13, 7:20 am, wis...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> Asian auto-maker propaganda [snipped]
>
> Rather than sending your dollars to Tokyo or Seoul, try to help your
> neighbors and yourself by buying a US made automobile. As is well
> known.. keeping one dollar in your local economy, generates even more
> dollars as that money recirculates creating compounded wealth.
>
> The PRIMARY reason that the US economy is failing is due to the
> reduction of US manufacturing capability which results in fewer
> exports and more imports over the last 15 years.
> The US's wealth has been drained away.
>
> If we lose the auto industry in America, we also lose 1/7th of all US
> jobs.
> Think about that.
>
> The wall-street giveaway of 800 BILLION to a crook business sector
> might keep the house of cards aloft (and the super-rich richer) for a
> year or two... but ultimately matters will become EVEN WORSE when that
> money runs out.
>
> We will never solve our current economic problem by shuffling paper
> and pretending that paper shuffling actually creates wealth.. it
> doesn't.. it just re-distributes wealth upward to a select few.
>
> America needs to re-industrialize itself. It's the only way out.
> And there's no time start but NOW.. and by saving the US auto
> industry.

(bumped up)

== 2 of 17 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 4:25 pm
From: Nate Nagel

lorad wrote:
> On Dec 13, 4:13 pm, lorad <lorad...@cs.com> wrote:
>> On Dec 13, 7:20 am, wis...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>
>> Asian auto-maker propaganda [snipped]
>>
>> Rather than sending your dollars to Tokyo or Seoul, try to help your
>> neighbors and yourself by buying a US made automobile. As is well
>> known.. keeping one dollar in your local economy, generates even more
>> dollars as that money recirculates creating compounded wealth.
>>
>> The PRIMARY reason that the US economy is failing is due to the
>> reduction of US manufacturing capability which results in fewer
>> exports and more imports over the last 15 years.
>> The US's wealth has been drained away.
>>
>> If we lose the auto industry in America, we also lose 1/7th of all US
>> jobs.
>> Think about that.
>>
>> The wall-street giveaway of 800 BILLION to a crook business sector
>> might keep the house of cards aloft (and the super-rich richer) for a
>> year or two... but ultimately matters will become EVEN WORSE when that
>> money runs out.
>>
>> We will never solve our current economic problem by shuffling paper
>> and pretending that paper shuffling actually creates wealth.. it
>> doesn't.. it just re-distributes wealth upward to a select few.
>>
>> America needs to re-industrialize itself. It's the only way out.
>> And there's no time start but NOW.. and by saving the US auto
>> industry.
>
> (bumped up)

I'd consider it, but my local mechanic tells me he has all the business
he can handle, so I don't feel the need to help him out.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

== 3 of 17 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 4:37 pm
From: russotto@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew Russotto)

In article <gi13bn03ft@news4.newsguy.com>,
SoCalMike <mikein562athotmail@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>from what ive read, theyre asking for "loan guarantees". no one said
>jack squat when the bankers flew to DC in THEIR jets and walked away
>with $700B.

You must have missed all the screaming and the failure of the first vote
on the bailout package.

>And then when they GOT it, they promptly gave each other
>bonuses and vacation retreats for the "job well done".

Actually that was AIG, which got a separate deal. Personally I think
they need to be sent to a retreat in Leavenworth, KS...

--
It's times like these which make me glad my bank is Dial-a-Mattress

== 4 of 17 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 4:38 pm
From: russotto@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew Russotto)

In article <ZxU0l.3912$jr1.1931@newsfe05.iad>,
clams_casino <PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:
>SoCalMike wrote:
>
>> clams_casino wrote:
>>
>>> servicing goes a long ways to extend the life of a relatively
>>> expensive investment.
>>
>>
>> cars are NEVER an investment. theyre appliances.
>
>Agreed. I was using that term loosely. Relatively expensive
>"expenditure" would probably have been a better description considering
>they are most always a (money) losing "investment".

Cars are durable goods, like large appliances. Unless they're from GM
or Chrysler.
--
It's times like these which make me glad my bank is Dial-a-Mattress

== 5 of 17 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 4:43 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote
> Rod Speed wrote
>> Brent <tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com> wrote

>>> Perception is the game these days

>> Like hell it is. The reality these days is that any decently designed car
>> will last for decades with no maintenance whatever apart from tyres etc.

> A little more than just tyres maybe.

The word etc was included for a reason.

> Brake discs / rotors, pads and shoes,

You wouldnt necessarily need any of those in a single decade, particularly with normal mileage.

> windscreen wipers, fluids,

Those were obviously included in the etc.

> a change of good synthetic oil every 12,000 mi,

You can get away with not bothering with that with an OHC engine.

> miscellaneous oddball bits.

There arent any of those with a properly designed car.

> Don't forget the exhaust if not stainless.

Thats covered by the properly designed.

> But yes, you are fundamentally right. I've had no trouble getting 180k mi out of European cars.

Me too, kraut cars in my case.

> And they were still basically decent runners at that point.

Yep, the only reason I replaced the Golf after 35+ years was because I was stupid
enough to not do anything about the known windscreen rubber leak with a car that
had never seen a home garage in its entire life which eventually rusted the floor.

Only did a couple of very minor repairs, one alternator regulator, one distributor button, one petrol hose replacement.

Didnt ever bother to change the oil at all and it didnt give a damn.

== 6 of 17 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 4:43 pm
From: "Dave"

"lorad" <lorad474@cs.com> wrote in message
news:1632a96d-2982-4282-8688-7248db34659d@t39g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
On Dec 13, 7:20 am, wis...@yahoo.com wrote:

>Asian auto-maker propaganda [snipped]

>Rather than sending your dollars to Tokyo or Seoul, try to help your
>neighbors and yourself by buying a US made automobile.

OK, I'll go buy a 2009 Toyota Camry. I'll get my wife a 2009 Acura RDX.
I'll buy my son a 2009 Hyundai Sonata. All made with pride by U.S. workers
in U.S. factories. :) -Dave

== 7 of 17 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 4:50 pm
From: The Real Bev

Alan Baker wrote:
>
>>> You're really stretching the matter to avoid reality, aren't you?
>> No, just pointing out that there are vehicle types your chosen makes
>> ignore.
>
> Nope. Just trying to ignore that the S2000 is a better vehicle than
> *any* american made RWD vehicle. Yes: including the Corvette.

I thought that the Corvette was thought to be cheaply made and that the
Camaro was an even cheaper version. Still, Camaros strike some chord
deep within my soul...

--
Cheers, Bev
==============================
All bleeding eventually stops.

== 8 of 17 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 5:00 pm
From: clams_casino

Brent wrote:

>
>
>You've had 3 cars since 2000? Holy crap. I've had the same ford since
>1996.
>

We average over 30k miles/ year.

My newest car - 2005 Pilot just hit 95k. Next year will be the
expensive year. I'll need to replace the original tires plus replace
the timing gear & water pump as recommended along with a 105k tune-up, etc.

Other than gas, oil changes & routine Honda servicing at 30k and 60k
miles, my only repair expenses so far have been $15 to repair a flat,
three sets of windshield wipers and perhaps $4 for window wash.

The 2000 Accord is still running very well at 180k - still running a
second set of tires, one brake change, one alternator change, one gas &
water pump change and two headlight replacements plus one pollution
device repair / replacement. We briefly owned a 2004 Pilot for nearly
a year when it was declared totaled after a drunk 16 year old (
licensed for two weeks) hit it 45 degrees head on while it was parked
(legally / unoccupied) on the street. His Ford Explorer was also
declared totaled. He rammed it across the granite curbing which
collapsed the four wheel assemblies and into two cars parked in a
driveway, damaging the side & back as it was spun around & sandwiched
between the cars.

My previous vehicles included a 1984 Caravan that required two
transmissions before I junked it at 120k (amongst other problems) when a
third one was needed, a 1986 GMC van that went through a set of tires
every 25k miles due to poor alignment (and numerous short circuit
problems), which had to be junked at 125k since it would not pass state
pollution testing without extensive engine repair and a 1994 Chrysler
Lebrun convertible which I still own at 105k that required $2k in
repairs this past year and $1k in 2007. It's my fun car - used only
about 4k miles / year in recent years, primarily in the summer. The $3K
is much more than I've put into the three Honda cars, but considering it
is 15 years old, I can accept the fact that some repairs are age rather
than mileage related (new belts, hoses, etc).

Yes, I have owned a number of cars.

== 9 of 17 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 5:12 pm
From: clams_casino

Brent wrote:

>So was the cimmeron but dressing up a cavalier didn't make it so.
>
>
>
>
Owned an 82 Cavalier wagon. Steering went out at 52k, at which time I
learned that it was covered by a recall only until 50k. Engine died at
85k - only 4 cylinder I ever owned. Mileage was poor from what I
recall, although it wasn't as bad as the 8 mpg I averaged in my 74 Ford
Torino. That had a 27.5 gallon tank. Otherwise, I'd probably have had
to fill it up every other day. Actually put over 26 gallons into it one
cold morning during the gas rationing.. It had the famous Firestone
tires that failed by 20k miles (radials ate through the side walls).
Unfortunately, Ford didn't have a recall until six months later and
would only replace them pay) if the originals were made available. So
much for being a high mileage driver. So much for Firestone products -
and yes, I enjoyed seeing them go bankrupt.

== 10 of 17 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 5:18 pm
From: clams_casino

lorad wrote:

>
>If we lose the auto industry in America, we also lose 1/7th of all US
>jobs.
>Think about that.
>
>

I am - Does that include all the US plants run by Honda, Toyota, BMW,
Mercedes, etc? Does that figure also include all the car dealers who
provide more jobs than the car companies?

Does that assume all production will go overseas and no one will be
driving (buying cars) in the US?

Sounds like propaganda to me.

== 11 of 17 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 6:00 pm
From: edward ohare

On Sat, 13 Dec 2008 14:48:30 -0800, "'nam vet."
<georgewkspam@humboldt1.com> wrote:

>In article <03c8k41i1u31md3dklk706579b2ugli0rp@4ax.com>,
> edward ohare <edward_ohare@nospam.yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 13 Dec 2008 08:20:34 -0700, wismel@yahoo.com wrote:
>>
>> Don't buy a Big 3 vehicle in 2009?
>>
>> Why not? They'll be real cheap at the bankruptcy sale.
>
>some car manufacturers keep the repair codes secret. like only
>authorized dealers can fix your car.
>be aware ! be very aware !

Someone will buy the repair information at the bankruptcy sale. And
parts that they'll sell. Etc.

== 12 of 17 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 6:00 pm
From: "Daniel T."

lorad <lorad474@cs.com> wrote:

> On Dec 13, 7:20 am, wis...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> If we lose the auto industry in America, we also lose 1/7th of all US
> jobs.
> Think about that.

Really? How do you figure that? What does "losing the auto industry"
even mean?

== 13 of 17 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 6:06 pm
From: Harold Burton

In article <0ck7k4lhdjqmlmma7ehulutbp40jg0cunl@4ax.com>,
wismel@yahoo.com wrote:

> It's time to teach the Big 3 and their UAW co-conspirators* that the
> American public does not need their products or companies as now
> constructed....

I've been teaching GM, Ford, and Chrysler that for over 30 years. They
sold me shit twice and I've been telling them to fuck off ever since.
Thank you Honda and Toyota for providing quality products. That's why I
keep buying from them rather than the "big 3 (soon to the be small 3)".

== 14 of 17 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 6:07 pm
From: Harold Burton

In article <03c8k41i1u31md3dklk706579b2ugli0rp@4ax.com>,
edward ohare <edward_ohare@nospam.yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:

> On Sat, 13 Dec 2008 08:20:34 -0700, wismel@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> Don't buy a Big 3 vehicle in 2009?
>
> Why not? They'll be real cheap at the bankruptcy sale.

Not in the long run.

== 15 of 17 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 6:16 pm
From: Alan Baker

In article <gi1l86$ppm$3@news.motzarella.org>,
The Real Bev <bashley101+M@gmail.com> wrote:

> Alan Baker wrote:
> >
> >>> You're really stretching the matter to avoid reality, aren't you?
> >> No, just pointing out that there are vehicle types your chosen makes
> >> ignore.
> >
> > Nope. Just trying to ignore that the S2000 is a better vehicle than
> > *any* american made RWD vehicle. Yes: including the Corvette.
>
> I thought that the Corvette was thought to be cheaply made and that the
> Camaro was an even cheaper version. Still, Camaros strike some chord
> deep within my soul...

Early Lotuses strike a chord with me...

...but it doesn't mean that they weren't POS when it came to quality.

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
<http://gallery.me.com/alangbaker/100008/DSCF0162/web.jpg>

== 16 of 17 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 6:18 pm
From: Alan Baker

In article
<1632a96d-2982-4282-8688-7248db34659d@t39g2000prh.googlegroups.com>,
lorad <lorad474@cs.com> wrote:

> On Dec 13, 7:20 am, wis...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> Asian auto-maker propaganda [snipped]
>
> Rather than sending your dollars to Tokyo or Seoul, try to help your
> neighbors and yourself by buying a US made automobile. As is well
> known.. keeping one dollar in your local economy, generates even more
> dollars as that money recirculates creating compounded wealth.
>
> The PRIMARY reason that the US economy is failing is due to the
> reduction of US manufacturing capability which results in fewer
> exports and more imports over the last 15 years.
> The US's wealth has been drained away.
>
> If we lose the auto industry in America, we also lose 1/7th of all US
> jobs.
> Think about that.
>
> The wall-street giveaway of 800 BILLION to a crook business sector
> might keep the house of cards aloft (and the super-rich richer) for a
> year or two... but ultimately matters will become EVEN WORSE when that
> money runs out.
>
> We will never solve our current economic problem by shuffling paper
> and pretending that paper shuffling actually creates wealth.. it
> doesn't.. it just re-distributes wealth upward to a select few.
>
> America needs to re-industrialize itself. It's the only way out.
> And there's no time start but NOW.. and by saving the US auto
> industry.

Instead of doing that, just give me $20.

That will keep your money in the local economy, too, right?

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
<http://gallery.me.com/alangbaker/100008/DSCF0162/web.jpg>

== 17 of 17 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 6:35 pm
From: Brent

On 2008-12-14, clams_casino <PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:
> Brent wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>You've had 3 cars since 2000? Holy crap. I've had the same ford since
>>1996.

> We average over 30k miles/ year.

So?

> My newest car - 2005 Pilot just hit 95k. Next year will be the
> expensive year. I'll need to replace the original tires plus replace
> the timing gear & water pump as recommended along with a 105k tune-up, etc.

95K on one set of tires sounds irresponsible.

> Other than gas, oil changes & routine Honda servicing at 30k and 60k
> miles, my only repair expenses so far have been $15 to repair a flat,
> three sets of windshield wipers and perhaps $4 for window wash.

It's 3 years old I wouldn't expect anything more.

> The 2000 Accord is still running very well at 180k - still running a
> second set of tires, one brake change, one alternator change, one gas &
> water pump change and two headlight replacements plus one pollution
> device repair / replacement.

It's only 8 years old.

You're piling on milage but not the time and environmental damage.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Are name-brand low-energy fluorescent "Green" bulbs any brighter than
store brand?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/16514de0eabde21c?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 4:19 pm
From: "Macuser"

As far as I know, they're ALL made in China, but I said I prefer the bulbs
be name brand because they tend to have a more attractive glow. GE and other
brands tend to be much warmer as far as I have seen. One bulb I have fires
up as a dim colored rose bulb, and then it brightens to be a full spectrum
bulb. It's pretty weird.

--
http://cashcuddler.com

"Thrift is sexy."

>
> Even the "name brand" ones are made in China, though some are better than
> others. The spectrum is determined by the color temperature, not by the
> brand that makes them. 2700K is incandescent lookalike, 3100K is often
> referred to as soft white, occasionally you see 3500K which are a bit
> cooler, and then 5500K-6000K is referred to as "daylight". A few companies
> charge exorbitant prices for daylight fluorescents marketing them as some
> sort of magical sunlight substitute, they're no different than the
> daylight cfls you can buy at most hardware stores for a few dollars.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 4:19 pm
From: "Macuser"

--
http://cashcuddler.com

"Thrift is sexy."

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Your favorite free e-card?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/8bf2062ff2236938?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 4:47 pm
From: The Real Bev

Bob F wrote:
> "The Real Bev" <bashley101+M@gmail.com> wrote:
>> James wrote:
>>> Have you found a really good one that you would recommend?
>> Maybe. What's an e-card?
>
> I think it is a way to give your friends e-mail addresses to companies so they
> can sell them to spammers.

I'd guess they'd all be equally good, then. Or maybe a better one would
actually pay US for the addresses, eliminating the middleman.

--
Cheers, Bev
==============================
All bleeding eventually stops.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Selling artwork in a bad market
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/d3b0c99328f52aea?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 4:58 pm
From: The Real Bev

Macuser wrote:
> Oy, not good! This is fine art and I won't put it outside with the castoff
> knick-knacks.

People who say that end up at the end of the day with a lot of "fine
art" on their hands that not even the Salvation Army is interested in.

> I think I will contact several dealers about the stuff. Maybe the art market
> will recover at bit in late 2009.

Perhaps, but Id be willing to bet that yours won't be in the
upwardly-mobile group.

Why not test the waters with ebay?

--
Cheers, Bev
==============================
All bleeding eventually stops.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Pennies on the street
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/d8ebb8d9fdd5bbd9?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 5:02 pm
From: The Real Bev

Macuser wrote:
> For years, I saw lots of pennies on the side because they were no longer of
> interest. Now, I hardly ever see them. It seems that people have returned to
> picking up pennies. Do you pick up coins? I prefer they be five cents or
> higher before I'll bend down.

I'll pick up any coin if I'm walking, but I won't get off my bicycle for
less than a nickel, and not even that if I have to stop in the middle of
an intersection.

I once found a $10 bill in the gutter. Sure I picked it up.

I used to pick up aluminum cans. When I had enough I turned them in and
bought a nifty Miyata bicycle.

--
Cheers, Bev
==============================
All bleeding eventually stops.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Why not a holiday from auto buying?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/9e36c73bdf3daf50?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 5:04 pm
From: aemeijers

bhanwaram@netscape.net wrote:
> On Dec 6, 8:59 pm, "hall...@aol.com" <hall...@aol.com> wrote:
>> big 3 saw customers wanted SUVs so they built them, gasoline cost
>> skyrocketed, fiancials tanked SUV sales dried up. big 3 now on edge of
>> bankruptcy.
>>
>
> Well put.
>
> Now the big 3 are run by people who make 400+ times
> more than the basic worker, so they are roughly 400+
> times wiser, smarter, more ruthless, etc than a basic
> human person.
>
> Clearly, they should have seen what would happen when
> the gasoline price started to spike. (For that matter,
> shouldn't all other CEO's whose companies eventually
> suffer from a chain reaction to the price spike, also
> see that in advance?)
>
> The gasoline price spike was not a natural demand-supply
> thing, it was some sort of a weird unnatural freakish thing.
>
> So the big 3's management, who are 400+ times wiser,
> smarter, more ruthless, etc, than a normal human,
> should have gotten together and killed this gasoline
> price spike before it grew big enough to start killing
> their companies. That would have been the time to
> go to the congress, kick and screan, hire investigators,
> whatever they needed to use their 400+ super-human
> abilities to stop the gasoline price spike in its tracks.
>
> Why didn't they?
Feds share part of the blame here- a big reason SUVs happened is that
the CAFE rules made it impossible to sell full-size station wagons
(which is what most early SUV buyers had previously bought, and what
they really needed), without charging the gas guzzler tax. What is an
SUV (most of which never go off-road) but a tall, ugly, bad-handling
station wagon, that gets even crappier gas mileage than the vehicle that
it replaced? For people that tow stuff, or thought they might need to
someday, no FWD vehicle cut the mustard- that sold more SUVs. Then SUVs
became trendy, and the downward spiral started...

The law of unintended consequences, etc.

--
aem sends...

==============================================================================
TOPIC: when/where are the Christmas sales?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/1e540ad7239f670a?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 5:22 pm
From: "Macuser"

I shopped at the Wal-Mart where the poor guy got stomped to death, and found
two excellent DVDs for $2 each. All appeared normal at the location, except
for the candles out front and the memorial attendant....

Target took a while to start lowering their electronics prices, and I was
able to get a really nice camera for $89.

--
http://cashcuddler.com

"Thrift is sexy."

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Saving Money on Calendars
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/9b326729403ee2be?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 6:39 pm
From: Dave Garland

SoCalMike wrote:
> Evelyn Leeper wrote:
>> The year 2009 is a non-leap-year starting on a Thursday. The most
>> recent identical year was 1998 if you want to recycle an old calendar.
>> If not, you can, as you can any year, use May of the previous year for
>> January. Then about mid- to late January you can get a new calendar
>> at a half or a quarter of what they cost now.
>
> i just buy one at the 99 cent store. works great for me!

I just pick up a few at the hardware store, another few at the liquor
store, the clothing store, the Chinese grocery. Plus there's the one
I get in the mail from the college I didn't graduate from but that
dreams that I'll leave them a lot of money when I die. Even in these
hard times, there are plenty of places giving them away.

And there's Sunbird (free) for my computer, so I get a calendar when I
boot up.

I like the idea of saving them, but then I wouldn't find the right one
until too late, and would have to wait another 11 years to use it.
Maybe that works for somebody who's more organized than me.

Dave

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misc.consumers.frugal-living - 26 new messages in 8 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 2:53 pm
From: The Real Bev

James wrote:
> Have you found a really good one that you would recommend?

Maybe. What's an e-card?

--
Cheers, Bev
==============================
All bleeding eventually stops.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 2:56 pm
From: "Bob F"

"The Real Bev" <bashley101+M@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:gi1ec2$j5r$3@news.motzarella.org...
> James wrote:
>> Have you found a really good one that you would recommend?
>
> Maybe. What's an e-card?

I think it is a way to give your friends e-mail addresses to companies so they
can sell them to spammers.

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 2:55 pm
From: The Real Bev

Evelyn Leeper wrote:
> The Real Bev wrote:
>>
>> Macuser wrote:
>>> I get at least 4 calendars every year from charities that want a
>>> donation. Doesn't everybody? They from groups like the Wildlife
>>> Foundation and they're beautiful. You can make a donation to a
>>> likeminded charity and multiple calendars will start pouring in.
>> Along with untold thousands of begging letters from the charities the
>> first one sold your name to. When the "forward" on my mom's mail
>> expired, the post office kindly told all the charities the address to
>> which her mail had been forwarded, so now I receive all the begging
>> letters for her at MY address.
>>
>> The only good part is that I get at least one pre-stamped return
>> envelope each month, which stamps I cut off and glue to the few pieces
>> of mail I'm actually forced to send. I think I have a lifetime supply
>> of postage already.
>
> Why not use the envelope by pasting a new label over the address? (Make
> sure to black/white-out any bar codes on the front as well

Easier to clip off the stamp. Glue-sticks work just fine. Envelopes
are dirt cheap.

--
Cheers, Bev
==============================
All bleeding eventually stops.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 3:45 pm
From: "Macuser"

Just look at the date on your computer. Who needs paper?

--
http://cashcuddler.com

"Thrift is sexy."

==============================================================================
TOPIC: how 'bout a "new' 1957 VW?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/f5f1ebefb4f9a6ac?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 3:05 pm
From: "'nam vet."

http://www.jps-motorsports.com/Gallery/source/blkoutlaw.html
--
When the Power of Love,replaces the Love of Power.
that's Evolution.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Do not purchase a new Big 3 vehicle in 2009.
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/8da7acb0e572db51?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 17 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 3:08 pm
From: BikeFan

So, the question is, are all those Detroit Big three leaders part of a
conspiracy to kill the Unions? Have they opened their books to PROVE
to Congress that they are busted?

--
BikeFan
To the GOP, Neocons and Bush from Oliver Cromwell:
"You have been sat too long here for any good you have been doing.
Depart, I say, and let us have done with you. In the name of God, go!"

== 2 of 17 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 3:22 pm
From: Eeyore

Rod Speed wrote:

> Brent <tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com> wrote
>
> > Perception is the game these days
>
> Like hell it is. The reality these days is that any decently designed car
> will last for decades with no maintenance whatever apart from tyres etc.

A little more than just tyres maybe. Brake discs / rotors, pads and shoes, windscreen wipers,
fluids, a change of good synthetic oil every 12,000 mi, miscellaneous oddball bits. Don't forget
the exhaust if not stainless.

But yes, you are fundamentally right. I've had no trouble getting 180k mi out of European cars. And
they were still basically decent runners at that point.

Graham

== 3 of 17 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 3:41 pm
From: clams_casino

Brent wrote:

>On 2008-12-13, clams_casino <PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>>Even if GM was able to provide a vehicle with equal (or even improved)
>>quality as Honda, Toyota & Nissan, I suspect it will take generations
>>before they'll be able to reverse their generally accepted reputation.
>>
>>
>
>After all of this you agree, it is perceptions rather than facts that
>are the driving factors.
>
>
>
>
No - I thought I was quite clear stating I was completely WRONG using
the word "perception".

Substitute "belief". A few seem to be believe (perception?) that GM is
making high quality vehicles, equal to better than their competition.
Many more "believe" they make inferior quality vehicles. The facts are
that they have been producing lower quality products for many years, as
strongly indicated by their 50% loss of market over perhaps 25 years.
They have a (well earned) reputation for inferior quality that will take
generations to overcome, assuming they are currently capable of
producing vehicles..

Then again, my point all along has been that it really doesn't matter
whether GM is able to produce vehicles of similar quality as their
competition. Most just aren't believing it's different ... this
time. There is a slim chance they might be, but one won't really know
for at least 10, maybe 20 years. Fewer and fewer are / will be willing
to take that remote chance.

== 4 of 17 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 3:41 pm
From: clams_casino

Eeyore wrote:

>clams_casino wrote:
>
>
>
>>the invasion of Iraq was not properly planned
>>
>>
>
>It wasn't even justified ! Or do you still believe the lies ?
>
>Graham
>
>
>
Never did.

== 5 of 17 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 3:47 pm
From: Brent

On 2008-12-13, Nate Nagel <njnagel@roosters.net> wrote:

> You forgot that at least the Camry is available with a manual
> transmission. The Malibu, despite its roots as an Opel, is not. That
> causes the PERCEPTION that GM doesn't care about car guys who want a
> small 4-door sedan.

That's not a perception, that's a fact. GM doesn't care about car guys
who want a small 4-door sedan. Or any sedan with an MT. To their
marketeers the only reason for an MT is because the buyer is 'cheap'.

== 6 of 17 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 3:52 pm
From: Brent

On 2008-12-13, Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> wrote:
> In article <gi1a38$751$1@news.motzarella.org>,
> Brent <tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2008-12-13, Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> wrote:
>> > In article <gi16re$6sr$1@news.motzarella.org>,
>> > Brent <tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> On 2008-12-13, Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> wrote:
>> >> > In article <gi162g$pmt$3@news.motzarella.org>,
>> >> > Brent <tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> On 2008-12-13, Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> wrote:
>> >> >> > In article <gi0oue$jrh$1@news.motzarella.org>,
>> >> >> > Brent <tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> On 2008-12-13, clams_casino <PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> > Final cost of a Malibu vs Accord, for example may be similar in
>> >> >> >> > price
>> >> >> >> > off the lot. but the later will typically go 100k without
>> >> >> >> > significant
>> >> >> >> > maintenance and last typically twice as long, making it half the
>> >> >> >> > cost
>> >> >> >> > in
>> >> >> >> > the long run.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> How much of that is reality and how much of it is perception?
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Honda et al. have been very good at convincing buyers to actually
>> >> >> >> TAKE
>> >> >> >> CARE OF THEIR CARS. This makes a huge difference in the long run.
>> >> >> >> Equally cared for cars (and the requirements for a Ford or GM
>> >> >> >> product
>> >> >> >> aren't significantly different than for Honda or Toyota) is what is
>> >> >> >> required to make the comparison.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > No. "Honda et al" have been very good at producing cars that don't
>> >> >> > *need* much care.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Who said "much" for either case? It's either it gets done or it
>> >> >> doesn't.
>> >> >
>> >> > And Hondas ("et al") will be better if you treat each one the same.
>> >> >
>> >> > Ignore the maintenance or do it, the japanese cars will be more reliable
>> >> > than the american crap.
>> >>
>> >> Some of us have reliablity from 'american crap' that parallels the
>> >> stories of the great hondas.... so I dunno.
>> >
>> > Anecdotal evidence is useless.
>>
>> except when it is for hondas obviously.
>
> Except it's not anecdotal.

So present your data. Hint: owners filling out serveys is just a lot of
anecdotes.

>> >> And when Honda makes a V8 or inline 6 car with RWD, MT w/clutch I'll
>> >> consider one.
>>
>> > You're really stretching the matter to avoid reality, aren't you?
>>
>> No, just pointing out that there are vehicle types your chosen makes
>> ignore.

> Nope. Just trying to ignore that the S2000 is a better vehicle than
> *any* american made RWD vehicle. Yes: including the Corvette.

LOl. it might be a good car in the roller skate class as I call it, but
I don't fit in those cars. Not enough leg room to operate a clutch
comfortably and my head is above the windscreen. As to being "better"
than a vette, that's like saying oranges are better than apples.

== 7 of 17 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 3:57 pm
From: Brent

On 2008-12-13, The Real Bev <bashley101+M@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Brent wrote:
>> On 2008-12-13, The Real Bev <bashley101+M@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> My mom's '88 Eldorado has 58,000 miles on it right now. The dealer had
>>> sold her new belts and hoses and an engine rebuild before it hit 45K.
>>
>> So a dealer stole from her. I bet the engine wasn't even opened.
>
> The bastard kept it for 2 weeks and was wildly uninformative about the
> reasons.
>
>>> The electric doorlock on the passenger side doesn't work.
>>
>> Sounds like it froze up from lack of use.

> No, she used it quite a bit. The passenger can lock/unlock the driver's
> side but the driver can't lock/unlock the passenger side. Clearly a
> switch or a connection, but I'm not willing to take the door apart for a
> little problem like that.

In the driveway? Even in my car there were some issues with the power
locks when the car sat most of the winter. Since I drive it in the
winter again there aren't any. Anyway these sort of little problems are
not unusual for a 20 year old car anyone's 20 year old car.

>> Probably lube is all it needs.
>> I've repaired similiar issues in japanese cars getting on in age.

> Too much shigt is electric. I wonder if it's still possible to buy
> all-manual cars (like they were Way Back When) with just
> radio/heater/ac. The dumbest thing is the trunk lock, which requires a
> $400 repair if somebody slams the trunk instead of easing it closed and
> letting the mechanism take over. No, not me -- a friend's kid. There
> is NO benefit derived with that stupid mechanism.

Manual windows and what not start to have wierd malfunctions when they
cross the 15 year mark too. I've delt with them too... on japanese cars.

>> That tends to happen in 20 years if one hasn't taken good care of the
>> leather with the proper condintioners and cleaners.

> She took it in for top-drawer service every 3 months. If they didn't do
> that, they should have for what they charged.

These are the same people who have been ripping her off for years, I
doubt they went through the effort to treat the leather.

> Yeah, but it's not touted as a top-of-the-line high-quality luxury
> experience.

So was the cimmeron but dressing up a cavalier didn't make it so.

== 8 of 17 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 3:57 pm
From: clams_casino

Brent wrote:

>
>
>Track record? What is the track record? It's a series of people's
>perceptions. Try to get someone who got a honda lemon to buy one again.
>
>

Don't know of any. I do, however, know many who will likely never
again consider a GM product.

Rather than go by yours of my experience, go by all the surveys. I
admittedly was very slow to consider the surveys. It wasn't until 2000
that I finally made the switch. I'm on my third since and when I look
back, question why it took so long.

>>It's hard to find many disgruntled owners of civics & Accords.
>>
>>
>
>http://www.google.com/search?q=accord+lemon
>
>Rather easy actually.
>
>

Hmm - the first leased four Hondas. Obviously he liked the first three
enough to get a fourth. All the responders had contradictory experience
- most stating minimal problems, even after 25 years.

It is interesting to read about some disgruntled owners. If I hadn't
read / heard from so many pleased owners I might not have bought my
first one. In reality my three have performed every bit up to my
expectations plus there's been another eight years where I'm aware of
numerous others who are only too glad to report the same. On the other
hand I'm not aware of too many GM owners who haven't already dumped
their vehicles purchased since that time.

>
>Reputation based on perceptions, not facts.
>
>
>
Only in your mind and perhaps a portion of the ever decreasing numbers
willing to own a GM, Ford or Chrysler product.

I'm sure there will always be a percentage that will buy a GM, Ford or
Chrysler product, just as there will always be a percentage that believe
GW has done a favorable job.

Hell, I'm even told there are some people actually admit to liking
country western music.

== 9 of 17 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 3:59 pm
From: Brent

On 2008-12-13, 'nam vet. <georgewkspam@humboldt1.com> wrote:

> some car manufacturers keep the repair codes secret. like only
> authorized dealers can fix your car.
> be aware ! be very aware !

There's this thing called the internet, there really aren't any secrets
for very long. There are geeks for every product who end up with the
knowledge either because they figured it out or because they know
someone on the inside. They then post it.

== 10 of 17 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 4:01 pm
From: Brent

On 2008-12-13, The Real Bev <bashley101+M@gmail.com> wrote:
> Brent wrote:
>> On 2008-12-13, The Real Bev <bashley101+M@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> And when Honda makes a V8 or inline 6 car with RWD, MT w/clutch I'll
>>>> consider one.
>>> How about a Toyota Land Cruiser?
>>
>> That would be a truck not a car.
>>
>>> All I wanted to see was the specs, but
>>> the site insisted on showing me a lot of flashcrap instead so I'm not
>>> sure about the manual transmission or drive axle, but it has a V8.
>>
>> That's because US marketing is about crap not technical things.
>
> Then we can hardly blame the Big 3 for catering to crap-choosing buyers,
> can we? You point your marketing strategy at the likeliest victims, right?

Ever go look at foreign websites? The Aussie ford website (at least it
used to) put the domestic ford website to shame on technical info.

== 11 of 17 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 4:07 pm
From: Brent

On 2008-12-13, clams_casino <PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:
> Brent wrote:
>
>>On 2008-12-13, clams_casino <PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Even if GM was able to provide a vehicle with equal (or even improved)
>>>quality as Honda, Toyota & Nissan, I suspect it will take generations
>>>before they'll be able to reverse their generally accepted reputation.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>After all of this you agree, it is perceptions rather than facts that
>>are the driving factors.
>>
>>
>>
>>
> No - I thought I was quite clear stating I was completely WRONG using
> the word "perception".

> Substitute "belief". A few seem to be believe (perception?) that GM is
> making high quality vehicles, equal to better than their competition.

reputation is a belief is a perception.

> Many more "believe" they make inferior quality vehicles. The facts are
> that they have been producing lower quality products for many years, as
> strongly indicated by their 50% loss of market over perhaps 25 years.

facts. where are these facts ?

Ferraris have a reputation for needing lots and lots of work to keep
going. One can point to the factory recommended service intervals and
what work is required to do it to show that the reputation is based in
fact. Care to do the same for GM?

Or are we going to get owner 'experiences'? which takes us right back to
perceptions.

== 12 of 17 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 4:07 pm
From: clams_casino

Dave wrote:

>
>>
>> No. "Honda et al" have been very good at producing cars that don't
>> *need* much care.
>>
>
> Have you ever owned a Malibu? I have. It doesn't *need* much care to
> keep it running and looking good for many years. Same as a Camry or
> Accord.
>
> But, as I wrote earlier, there is a perception that the Malibu is not
> as good. -Dave

Not willing to take a chance. I did own one back in the 70's - real
piece of crap, but admittedly the technology was quite different at that
time.

After a series of mediocre GM, Ford & Chrysler cars followed by three
excellent performing Honda vehicles, it would be foolish to take a
chance on a GM product.

Actually, I did rent a Malibu last year. I didn't have any mechanical
problems during the week I drove it, but it did run like crap - comfort
/ noise couldn't compare with my 2000 Accord even at 180K miles.
Granted, it was a rental, but it did drive pretty much as I expected it
would.

== 13 of 17 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 4:11 pm
From: clams_casino

Eeyore wrote:

>lorad wrote:
>
>
>
>>The reason that the asian cars are more competetive is that their
>>governments provide their workers with universal health care (cha-
>>ching).
>>
>>
>
>Not sure that's true actually. Certainly for US made Hondas Nissans and
>Toyotas. Anyway, nothing stopping the USA doing the same ! Universal
>health care is a fraction of the cost of private btw.
>
>Graham
>
>
>
Honda has been assembling cars in MD since 1982.

== 14 of 17 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 4:13 pm
From: lorad

On Dec 13, 7:20 am, wis...@yahoo.com wrote:

Asian auto-maker propaganda [snipped]

Rather than sending your dollars to Tokyo or Seoul, try to help your
neighbors and yourself by buying a US made automobile. As is well
known.. keeping one dollar in your local economy, generates even more
dollars as that money recirculates creating compounded wealth.

The PRIMARY reason that the US economy is failing is due to the
reduction of US manufacturing capability which results in fewer
exports and more imports over the last 15 years.
The US's wealth has been drained away.

If we lose the auto industry in America, we also lose 1/7th of all US
jobs.
Think about that.

The wall-street giveaway of 800 BILLION to a crook business sector
might keep the house of cards aloft (and the super-rich richer) for a
year or two... but ultimately matters will become EVEN WORSE when that
money runs out.

We will never solve our current economic problem by shuffling paper
and pretending that paper shuffling actually creates wealth.. it
doesn't.. it just re-distributes wealth upward to a select few.

America needs to re-industrialize itself. It's the only way out.
And there's no time start but NOW.. and by saving the US auto
industry.

== 15 of 17 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 4:14 pm
From: Brent

On 2008-12-13, clams_casino <PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:
> Brent wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>Track record? What is the track record? It's a series of people's
>>perceptions. Try to get someone who got a honda lemon to buy one again.
>>
>>
>
> Don't know of any.

Google around.

> I do, however, know many who will likely never again consider a GM product.

Sure, I won't consider any GM car not a corvette or holden because of
two cars my parents had so I am in that camp too. GM has had a lot more
years and a lot more cars to damage itself.

> Rather than go by yours of my experience, go by all the surveys.

So you just go by a bunch of perceptions and personal experiences.

> I
> admittedly was very slow to consider the surveys. It wasn't until 2000
> that I finally made the switch. I'm on my third since and when I look
> back, question why it took so long.

You've had 3 cars since 2000? Holy crap. I've had the same ford since
1996.

>>http://www.google.com/search?q=accord+lemon
>>
>>Rather easy actually.

> Hmm - the first leased four Hondas. Obviously he liked the first three
> enough to get a fourth. All the responders had contradictory experience
> - most stating minimal problems, even after 25 years.

So he had 25% failure rate. You'll see the exact same thing in ford and
GM forums too.

> It is interesting to read about some disgruntled owners. If I hadn't
> read / heard from so many pleased owners I might not have bought my
> first one. In reality my three have performed every bit up to my
> expectations plus there's been another eight years where I'm aware of
> numerous others who are only too glad to report the same. On the other
> hand I'm not aware of too many GM owners who haven't already dumped
> their vehicles purchased since that time.

It's just about listening to the personal experiences are own biases
weight one way or the other. This really isn't a fact based analysis,
it's touchy feely sort of thing

>>Reputation based on perceptions, not facts.

> Only in your mind and perhaps a portion of the ever decreasing numbers
> willing to own a GM, Ford or Chrysler product.

I guess you don't know what a reputation is. It's quite possible to have
one reputation but be the exact opposite. Reputation is how others
perceive you.

== 16 of 17 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 4:16 pm
From: Nate Nagel

Brent wrote:
> On 2008-12-13, clams_casino <PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:
>> Brent wrote:
>>
>>> On 2008-12-13, clams_casino <PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Even if GM was able to provide a vehicle with equal (or even improved)
>>>> quality as Honda, Toyota & Nissan, I suspect it will take generations
>>>> before they'll be able to reverse their generally accepted reputation.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> After all of this you agree, it is perceptions rather than facts that
>>> are the driving factors.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> No - I thought I was quite clear stating I was completely WRONG using
>> the word "perception".
>
>> Substitute "belief". A few seem to be believe (perception?) that GM is
>> making high quality vehicles, equal to better than their competition.
>
> reputation is a belief is a perception.
>
>> Many more "believe" they make inferior quality vehicles. The facts are
>> that they have been producing lower quality products for many years, as
>> strongly indicated by their 50% loss of market over perhaps 25 years.
>
> facts. where are these facts ?
>
> Ferraris have a reputation for needing lots and lots of work to keep
> going. One can point to the factory recommended service intervals and
> what work is required to do it to show that the reputation is based in
> fact. Care to do the same for GM?
>
> Or are we going to get owner 'experiences'? which takes us right back to
> perceptions.
>
>

IMHO the GM factory recommended services are woefully inadequate. One
should follow the "severe service" intervals for any American car. The
mfgrs. like to lowball the service required so that they look good in
"long term comparison tests" but the truth is that only doing the
recommended services virtually ensures a finite lifespan and/or costly
repairs. I don't believe any US mfgr. recommends regular brake fluid
changes but if you don't do it you risk expensive failures of brake
components at around 10 years or so (including ABS/TC components which
may approach the depreciated value of the car in replacement cost.)

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

== 17 of 17 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 4:19 pm
From: lorad

(bumped up)

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 3:13 pm
From: "Macuser"

Oy, not good! This is fine art and I won't put it outside with the castoff
knick-knacks.

I think I will contact several dealers about the stuff. Maybe the art market
will recover at bit in late 2009.

Strap yourselves down, kiddies. We're in for a rough ride.

--
http://cashcuddler.com

"Thrift is sexy."

"The Real Bev" <bashley101+M@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:gi108j$1ld$2@news.motzarella.org...
> Macuser wrote:
>> Can anybody give me tips on selling original artwork in a bad market?
>
> Yard sale. Don't turn down any offers.
>
> --
> Cheers, Bev
> ==============================
> All bleeding eventually stops.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Frugal Kitchen Tip
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/b377d4bf277b66f7?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 3:18 pm
From: "Macuser"

My fave kitchen tip:

Don't waste your good money on softdrinks. Microwave a quart size container
of water with 4 teabags. Add sugar or artificial sweetener. Chill. Easy iced
tea costs you about 10 cents a quart. Add lemon if you like. It's delicious.

--
http://cashcuddler.com

"Thrift is sexy."

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Boston Herald: "Your tips for smart savings"
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/43ba905d7f8f6ef2?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 3:21 pm
From: "Macuser"

That's a take on the old Weight watchers idea about having your meals on a
smaller plate to fool yourself that you're eating a bigger serving. File it
under "Yah, sure."

--
http://cashcuddler.com

"Thrift is sexy."

<lenona321@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3fc55266-cdd2-4043-b67c-43827253c4b3@j32g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
> http://www.bostonherald.com/news/regional/view.bg?articleid=1135695
>
> Some are good, and some are like this one:
>
> "Trick yourself into thinking you have more money by switching to a
> smaller wallet. This is especially helpful if you only carry $1 bills
> (which is probably all you have anyway), and makes your billfold feel
> fuller."
>
> Lenona.

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 3:55 pm
From: "Macuser"

For years, I saw lots of pennies on the side because they were no longer of
interest. Now, I hardly ever see them. It seems that people have returned to
picking up pennies. Do you pick up coins? I prefer they be five cents or
higher before I'll bend down.

--
http://cashcuddler.com

"Thrift is sexy."

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misc.consumers.frugal-living - 25 new messages in 4 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
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Today's topics:

* Do not purchase a new Big 3 vehicle in 2009. - 20 messages, 7 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/8da7acb0e572db51?hl=en
* Saving Money on Calendars - 2 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/9b326729403ee2be?hl=en
* Why not a holiday from auto buying? - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/9e36c73bdf3daf50?hl=en
* Your favorite free e-card? - 2 messages, 2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/8bf2062ff2236938?hl=en

== 1 of 20 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 1:49 pm
From: Brent

On 2008-12-13, clams_casino <PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:
> Brent wrote:
>
>>On 2008-12-13, clams_casino <PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Brent wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>On 2008-12-13, clams_casino <PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Not at all. In other words, there's really no way to know if today's
>>>>>Malibus are equal to the quality of today's Accords without waiting 20
>>>>>years.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>Neither car has been made for 20 years.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>The intended point was that it will take many years before the true
>>>quality of a car built today will be determined. Meanwhile, should I
>>>invest in a brand that has a 10-20 year track record of being reliable
>>>(Accords and Civics have been produced since at least 1990)? Or one
>>>that has had a history of poor reliability. Hm - It'll be different
>>>this time ... trust me.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>The point is that the track record of the model is irrelevant because
>>its been replaced with new designs. The brand is a somewhat different
>>story and the 'track record' of the brand is often perception rather
>>than fact.
>>
>
> That may or may not be true, but why put out $30k for a vehicle that
> promises to be different...... this time? The track record of the
> manufacturer is what provides confidence to many buyers.

Track record? What is the track record? It's a series of people's
perceptions. Try to get someone who got a honda lemon to buy one again.

> It's hard to find many disgruntled owners of civics & Accords.

http://www.google.com/search?q=accord+lemon

Rather easy actually.

> It's
> much more common to find disgruntled Chevy owners (and GM in general vs.
> Honda, Toyota, Nissan).

No, it would take the same couple of seconds.

> You may want to believe it's different this time, but too many have been
> burnt with that perception to go back.

My point is that perception is the driver. I see you're coming around.

> Reputation is critical for a majority of car buyers.

Reputation based on perceptions, not facts.

== 2 of 20 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 1:51 pm
From: Brent

On 2008-12-13, clams_casino <PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:
> Brent wrote:
>
>>On 2008-12-13, Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>In article <gi0oue$jrh$1@news.motzarella.org>,
>>> Brent <tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>On 2008-12-13, clams_casino <PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Final cost of a Malibu vs Accord, for example may be similar in price
>>>>>off the lot. but the later will typically go 100k without significant
>>>>>maintenance and last typically twice as long, making it half the cost in
>>>>>the long run.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>How much of that is reality and how much of it is perception?
>>>>
>>>>Honda et al. have been very good at convincing buyers to actually TAKE
>>>>CARE OF THEIR CARS. This makes a huge difference in the long run.
>>>>Equally cared for cars (and the requirements for a Ford or GM product
>>>>aren't significantly different than for Honda or Toyota) is what is
>>>>required to make the comparison.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>No. "Honda et al" have been very good at producing cars that don't
>>>*need* much care.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Who said "much" for either case? It's either it gets done or it doesn't.
>>
>>
>>
>>
> You're assuming both use the same quality parts. I (and many others)
> don't share that perception.

I made no such assumption.

> Yes, all gas pumps, alternators, water pumps, etc will eventually fail.
> But, do they last 65k or 130k miles?

If you have some facts, present them. Otherwise it's just perceptions.

> It's been reported many times
> that GM tends to use lower quality parts to make up for their higher
> wage / benefits costs.

Yes they do. Mostly interior trim and other such things.

== 3 of 20 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 1:49 pm
From: Nate Nagel

The Real Bev wrote:
> lorad wrote:
>
>> PS: For the rest of you foreign agents and economic traitors in this
>> thread.. american cars are just fine.. they got 2 out of 3 of JD
>> Powers top quality ratings. So please stop your hallucinigenic
>> squawking.
>
> Who answers Powers' surveys? I posit that the 'average user' figures
> something is high-quality if it's nice-looking and lasts a year without
> problems.
>

Seeing as JD Power is an "initial quality" survey, that's about all they
*can* tell you. I'd like someone to run a survey on 10 or 20 year old
cars. Unfortunately the vehicles of most manufacturers bear little
resemblance to the models made 20 years ago, even under the skin. There
are some exceptions like VW (basic engine design dates back to 1973) but
not many.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

== 4 of 20 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 1:56 pm
From: Nate Nagel

Brent wrote:
> On 2008-12-13, clams_casino <PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:
>> Brent wrote:
>>
>>> On 2008-12-13, Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> In article <gi0oue$jrh$1@news.motzarella.org>,
>>>> Brent <tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On 2008-12-13, clams_casino <PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Final cost of a Malibu vs Accord, for example may be similar in price
>>>>>> off the lot. but the later will typically go 100k without significant
>>>>>> maintenance and last typically twice as long, making it half the cost in
>>>>>> the long run.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> How much of that is reality and how much of it is perception?
>>>>>
>>>>> Honda et al. have been very good at convincing buyers to actually TAKE
>>>>> CARE OF THEIR CARS. This makes a huge difference in the long run.
>>>>> Equally cared for cars (and the requirements for a Ford or GM product
>>>>> aren't significantly different than for Honda or Toyota) is what is
>>>>> required to make the comparison.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> No. "Honda et al" have been very good at producing cars that don't
>>>> *need* much care.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Who said "much" for either case? It's either it gets done or it doesn't.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> You're assuming both use the same quality parts. I (and many others)
>> don't share that perception.
>
> I made no such assumption.
>
>> Yes, all gas pumps, alternators, water pumps, etc will eventually fail.
>> But, do they last 65k or 130k miles?
>
> If you have some facts, present them. Otherwise it's just perceptions.
>
>> It's been reported many times
>> that GM tends to use lower quality parts to make up for their higher
>> wage / benefits costs.
>
> Yes they do. Mostly interior trim and other such things.
>

Eh, not always. While the older Delco components were darn near
bulletproof and easily serviceable when they did fail, the post-12SI
series alternators were a nightmare and nowhere near as reliable as
their Bosch or Nippondenso competition. (now you can't find a "rebuild
kit" for a Bosch alternator at Pep Boys, and not anywhere inexpensively,
but it's hard to find same for an old 10SI/12SI these days as well.)

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

== 5 of 20 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 1:59 pm
From: edward ohare

On Sat, 13 Dec 2008 16:47:10 +0000 (UTC), Brent
<tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Perception is the game these days and GM still doesn't seem to
>understand that. Then again the media doesn't help either by acting like
>it is still 1968 and 99% of people drive domestic automobiles so they
>don't bother covering import recalls and problems for the most part.

I'm still wondering how Honda covered up the broken engine block
issue... where the block broke where the mount bolt went into it. It
was commone enough Honda engineered a moogie foogie kit that didn't
require block replacement.

== 6 of 20 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 2:01 pm
From: edward ohare

On Sat, 13 Dec 2008 08:20:34 -0700, wismel@yahoo.com wrote:

Don't buy a Big 3 vehicle in 2009?

Why not? They'll be real cheap at the bankruptcy sale.

== 7 of 20 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 2:03 pm
From: edward ohare

On Sat, 13 Dec 2008 10:03:28 -0800, John David Galt
<jdg@diogenes.sacramento.ca.us> wrote:

>wismel@yahoo.com wrote:
>> It's time to teach the Big 3 and their UAW co-conspirators* that the
>> American public does not need their products or companies as now
>> constructed. Buy a used vehicle or repair what you have. (You will
>> save a lot of money).
>
>Unfortunately, the tax man will take our money and give it to them anyway.

Actually not. The government will give them money but it will be up
to our grandchildren to pay it back. (Special appropriations with
borrowed money, and the fed debt is already $97,000 per houshold...
half of that accumulated the last 8 years).

== 8 of 20 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 2:03 pm
From: Brent

On 2008-12-13, The Real Bev <bashley101+M@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Brent wrote:
>> On 2008-12-13, clams_casino <PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:
>>> Brent wrote:
>>>> On 2008-12-13, clams_casino <PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Not at all. In other words, there's really no way to know if today's
>>>>> Malibus are equal to the quality of today's Accords without waiting 20
>>>>> years.
>>>>>
>>>> Neither car has been made for 20 years.
>>>
>>> The intended point was that it will take many years before the true
>>> quality of a car built today will be determined. Meanwhile, should I
>>> invest in a brand that has a 10-20 year track record of being reliable
>>> (Accords and Civics have been produced since at least 1990)? Or one
>>> that has had a history of poor reliability. Hm - It'll be different
>>> this time ... trust me.
>>
>> The point is that the track record of the model is irrelevant because
>> its been replaced with new designs. The brand is a somewhat different
>> story and the 'track record' of the brand is often perception rather
>> than fact. There are still numerous oldsmobiles from GMs darkest time in
>> the early 80s roaming the roads in the chicago area but I haven't seen a
>> honda from that era in a very very long time, maybe a decade now.
>
> My mom's '88 Eldorado has 58,000 miles on it right now. The dealer had
> sold her new belts and hoses and an engine rebuild before it hit 45K.

So a dealer stole from her. I bet the engine wasn't even opened.

> The electric doorlock on the passenger side doesn't work.

Sounds like it froze up from lack of use. Probably lube is all it needs.
I've repaired similiar issues in japanese cars getting on in age.

> The antenna-raising motor burned out.

20 years old and with few cycles on it. It may not even be burned out,
just stuck. someting went wrong with the power antenna on an '89 MX6 my
dad had... typical thing to fail in old cars too.

> The heater core rotted through.

That's quite common in cars that see 2 decades of service, even japanese
ones. (I replaced a heater core in a japan built mazda myself)

> The leather seats are cracking.

That tends to happen in 20 years if one hasn't taken good care of the
leather with the proper condintioners and cleaners.

> The AC has had serious service a couple of times.

AC doesn't like to sit. 58k miles in 20 years is hard on an AC system.

> There were other problems that she had to pay for in addition to
> quarterly "automatic" servicing, I just don't want to look through her
> receipts again -- I nearly cried the first time.

It sounds like the dealer was stealing from her.

> I'd call that piss poor and the blame is probably shared equally between
> the corrupt dealer and the manufacturer. Yet another case of wallet rape.

The car was taken to a corrupt dealer, they exist for all makes.

The car has issues typical of a 20 year old car of *ANY* make. But
because it's GM, it's a hunk of crap. That's my point. A honda beater
with with all the same issues is viewed by 'look, this car is 20 years
old and this all that's wrong with it'.

== 9 of 20 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 2:04 pm
From: Brent

On 2008-12-13, clams_casino <PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:

> Even if GM was able to provide a vehicle with equal (or even improved)
> quality as Honda, Toyota & Nissan, I suspect it will take generations
> before they'll be able to reverse their generally accepted reputation.

After all of this you agree, it is perceptions rather than facts that
are the driving factors.

== 10 of 20 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 2:05 pm
From: Brent

On 2008-12-13, The Real Bev <bashley101+M@gmail.com> wrote:

>> And when Honda makes a V8 or inline 6 car with RWD, MT w/clutch I'll
>> consider one.
>
> How about a Toyota Land Cruiser?

That would be a truck not a car.

> All I wanted to see was the specs, but
> the site insisted on showing me a lot of flashcrap instead so I'm not
> sure about the manual transmission or drive axle, but it has a V8.

That's because US marketing is about crap not technical things.

== 11 of 20 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 2:22 pm
From: "Dave"

>
>> Final cost of a Malibu vs Accord, for example may be similar in price
>> off the lot. but the later will typically go 100k without significant
>> maintenance and last typically twice as long, making it half the cost in
>> the long run.
>
> How much of that is reality and how much of it is perception?
>
> Honda et al. have been very good at convincing buyers to actually TAKE
> CARE OF THEIR CARS. This makes a huge difference in the long run.
> Equally cared for cars (and the requirements for a Ford or GM product
> aren't significantly different than for Honda or Toyota) is what is
> required to make the comparison.

I'd guesstimate a Malibu is pretty close (like 95% or better) the quality of
an Accord or a Camry. Most Malibus, if properly cared for, will probably
last as long as their Jap-designed counterparts.

BUT, you NAILED IT when you asked how much of it is perception?

That's all that matters to a car buyer... PERCEIVED value. The Jap designs
have been murdering the "Detroit" designs for many years now, in PERCEIVED
value. That isn't likely to change anytime soon. -Dave

== 12 of 20 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 2:23 pm
From: "Dave"

>
> No. "Honda et al" have been very good at producing cars that don't
> *need* much care.
>

Have you ever owned a Malibu? I have. It doesn't *need* much care to keep
it running and looking good for many years. Same as a Camry or Accord.

But, as I wrote earlier, there is a perception that the Malibu is not as
good. -Dave

== 13 of 20 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 2:22 pm
From: Nate Nagel

Dave wrote:
>>
>>> Final cost of a Malibu vs Accord, for example may be similar in price
>>> off the lot. but the later will typically go 100k without significant
>>> maintenance and last typically twice as long, making it half the cost in
>>> the long run.
>>
>> How much of that is reality and how much of it is perception?
>>
>> Honda et al. have been very good at convincing buyers to actually TAKE
>> CARE OF THEIR CARS. This makes a huge difference in the long run.
>> Equally cared for cars (and the requirements for a Ford or GM product
>> aren't significantly different than for Honda or Toyota) is what is
>> required to make the comparison.
>
> I'd guesstimate a Malibu is pretty close (like 95% or better) the
> quality of an Accord or a Camry. Most Malibus, if properly cared for,
> will probably last as long as their Jap-designed counterparts.
>
> BUT, you NAILED IT when you asked how much of it is perception?
>
> That's all that matters to a car buyer... PERCEIVED value. The Jap
> designs have been murdering the "Detroit" designs for many years now, in
> PERCEIVED value. That isn't likely to change anytime soon. -Dave

You forgot that at least the Camry is available with a manual
transmission. The Malibu, despite its roots as an Opel, is not. That
causes the PERCEPTION that GM doesn't care about car guys who want a
small 4-door sedan.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

== 14 of 20 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 2:33 pm
From: The Real Bev

Nate Nagel wrote:
> The Real Bev wrote:
>> lorad wrote:
>>
>>> PS: For the rest of you foreign agents and economic traitors in this
>>> thread.. american cars are just fine.. they got 2 out of 3 of JD
>>> Powers top quality ratings. So please stop your hallucinigenic
>>> squawking.
>> Who answers Powers' surveys? I posit that the 'average user' figures
>> something is high-quality if it's nice-looking and lasts a year without
>> problems.
>>
>
> Seeing as JD Power is an "initial quality" survey, that's about all they
> *can* tell you.

And people actually pay attention to that?

> I'd like someone to run a survey on 10 or 20 year old
> cars.

The Consumer Reports year-end guide gives ratings for older cars, but
they aren't all that informative -- "transmission" could be either a
minor adjustment or a complete rebuild.

--
Cheers, Bev
==============================
All bleeding eventually stops.

== 15 of 20 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 2:35 pm
From: Alan Baker

In article <gi1cl1$4s0$1@news.motzarella.org>, "Dave" <noway@nohow.not>
wrote:

> >
> > No. "Honda et al" have been very good at producing cars that don't
> > *need* much care.
> >
>
> Have you ever owned a Malibu? I have. It doesn't *need* much care to keep
> it running and looking good for many years. Same as a Camry or Accord.

Not even close. The build quality, the fit and finish, the quality of
components...

...all are inferior to a Honda Civic or Toyota Corolla.

>
> But, as I wrote earlier, there is a perception that the Malibu is not as
> good. -Dave

LOL

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
<http://gallery.me.com/alangbaker/100008/DSCF0162/web.jpg>

== 16 of 20 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 2:36 pm
From: Alan Baker

In article <gi1a38$751$1@news.motzarella.org>,
Brent <tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On 2008-12-13, Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> wrote:
> > In article <gi16re$6sr$1@news.motzarella.org>,
> > Brent <tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On 2008-12-13, Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> wrote:
> >> > In article <gi162g$pmt$3@news.motzarella.org>,
> >> > Brent <tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> On 2008-12-13, Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> wrote:
> >> >> > In article <gi0oue$jrh$1@news.motzarella.org>,
> >> >> > Brent <tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> On 2008-12-13, clams_casino <PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> > Final cost of a Malibu vs Accord, for example may be similar in
> >> >> >> > price
> >> >> >> > off the lot. but the later will typically go 100k without
> >> >> >> > significant
> >> >> >> > maintenance and last typically twice as long, making it half the
> >> >> >> > cost
> >> >> >> > in
> >> >> >> > the long run.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> How much of that is reality and how much of it is perception?
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Honda et al. have been very good at convincing buyers to actually
> >> >> >> TAKE
> >> >> >> CARE OF THEIR CARS. This makes a huge difference in the long run.
> >> >> >> Equally cared for cars (and the requirements for a Ford or GM
> >> >> >> product
> >> >> >> aren't significantly different than for Honda or Toyota) is what is
> >> >> >> required to make the comparison.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > No. "Honda et al" have been very good at producing cars that don't
> >> >> > *need* much care.
> >> >>
> >> >> Who said "much" for either case? It's either it gets done or it
> >> >> doesn't.
> >> >
> >> > And Hondas ("et al") will be better if you treat each one the same.
> >> >
> >> > Ignore the maintenance or do it, the japanese cars will be more reliable
> >> > than the american crap.
> >>
> >> Some of us have reliablity from 'american crap' that parallels the
> >> stories of the great hondas.... so I dunno.
> >
> > Anecdotal evidence is useless.
>
> except when it is for hondas obviously.

Except it's not anecdotal.

>
> >> And when Honda makes a V8 or inline 6 car with RWD, MT w/clutch I'll
> >> consider one.
>
> > You're really stretching the matter to avoid reality, aren't you?
>
> No, just pointing out that there are vehicle types your chosen makes
> ignore.

Nope. Just trying to ignore that the S2000 is a better vehicle than
*any* american made RWD vehicle. Yes: including the Corvette.

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
<http://gallery.me.com/alangbaker/100008/DSCF0162/web.jpg>

== 17 of 20 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 2:39 pm
From: "Dave"

>> BUT, you NAILED IT when you asked how much of it is perception?
>>
>> That's all that matters to a car buyer... PERCEIVED value. The Jap
>> designs have been murdering the "Detroit" designs for many years now, in
>> PERCEIVED value. That isn't likely to change anytime soon. -Dave
>
> You forgot that at least the Camry is available with a manual
> transmission. The Malibu, despite its roots as an Opel, is not. That
> causes the PERCEPTION that GM doesn't care about car guys who want a small
> 4-door sedan.
>
> nate

I'm a car guy who likes small 4-door sedans. I don't really care what the
tranny is, though it does make the household (read: WIFE) a bit happier if
the tranny is an automatic.
It would be nice for GM to offer a 5-speed manual in a Malibu. But GM does
offer a Malibu that 99% or more of GM potential customers would be quite
happy with. Hard to fault GM for giving the customers (the vast majority of
them anyway) what they want.

I for one would LOVE to drive a 5-speed Malibu sometime. :) Nothing wrong
with the automatic though. -Dave

== 18 of 20 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 2:47 pm
From: The Real Bev

Brent wrote:
> On 2008-12-13, The Real Bev <bashley101+M@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> My mom's '88 Eldorado has 58,000 miles on it right now. The dealer had
>> sold her new belts and hoses and an engine rebuild before it hit 45K.
>
> So a dealer stole from her. I bet the engine wasn't even opened.

The bastard kept it for 2 weeks and was wildly uninformative about the
reasons.

>> The electric doorlock on the passenger side doesn't work.
>
> Sounds like it froze up from lack of use.

No, she used it quite a bit. The passenger can lock/unlock the driver's
side but the driver can't lock/unlock the passenger side. Clearly a
switch or a connection, but I'm not willing to take the door apart for a
little problem like that.

> Probably lube is all it needs.
> I've repaired similiar issues in japanese cars getting on in age.

Too much shigt is electric. I wonder if it's still possible to buy
all-manual cars (like they were Way Back When) with just
radio/heater/ac. The dumbest thing is the trunk lock, which requires a
$400 repair if somebody slams the trunk instead of easing it closed and
letting the mechanism take over. No, not me -- a friend's kid. There
is NO benefit derived with that stupid mechanism.

>> The antenna-raising motor burned out.
>
> 20 years old and with few cycles on it. It may not even be burned out,
> just stuck. someting went wrong with the power antenna on an '89 MX6 my
> dad had... typical thing to fail in old cars too.

Something stuck and it started making noise and smoking. I drove it to
the dealer who disconnected it, and my mom had it replaced the next time
she had it serviced.

>> The heater core rotted through.
>
> That's quite common in cars that see 2 decades of service, even japanese
> ones. (I replaced a heater core in a japan built mazda myself)

I shouldn'tt really complain about that, but I will anyway :-(
>
>> The leather seats are cracking.
>
> That tends to happen in 20 years if one hasn't taken good care of the
> leather with the proper condintioners and cleaners.

She took it in for top-drawer service every 3 months. If they didn't do
that, they should have for what they charged.

>> The AC has had serious service a couple of times.
>
> AC doesn't like to sit. 58k miles in 20 years is hard on an AC system.

She used it ALL the time. She frowned when I opened the windows on nice
days.

>> There were other problems that she had to pay for in addition to
>> quarterly "automatic" servicing, I just don't want to look through her
>> receipts again -- I nearly cried the first time.
>
> It sounds like the dealer was stealing from her.

All Cadillac dealers are crooks. Maybe ALL dealers are, but those are
the only ones with whom I have experience.

>> I'd call that piss poor and the blame is probably shared equally between
>> the corrupt dealer and the manufacturer. Yet another case of wallet rape.
>
> The car was taken to a corrupt dealer, they exist for all makes.

I had my suspicions.

> The car has issues typical of a 20 year old car of *ANY* make.

It's 20 years old NOW. The problems occurred long ago and long before
they should have.

> But
> because it's GM, it's a hunk of crap. That's my point. A honda beater
> with with all the same issues is viewed by 'look, this car is 20 years
> old and this all that's wrong with it'.

Yeah, but it's not touted as a top-of-the-line high-quality luxury
experience.

--
Cheers, Bev
==============================
All bleeding eventually stops.

== 19 of 20 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 2:48 pm
From: "'nam vet."

In article <03c8k41i1u31md3dklk706579b2ugli0rp@4ax.com>,
edward ohare <edward_ohare@nospam.yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:

> On Sat, 13 Dec 2008 08:20:34 -0700, wismel@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> Don't buy a Big 3 vehicle in 2009?
>
> Why not? They'll be real cheap at the bankruptcy sale.

some car manufacturers keep the repair codes secret. like only
authorized dealers can fix your car.
be aware ! be very aware !
--
When the Power of Love,replaces the Love of Power.
that's Evolution.

== 20 of 20 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 2:51 pm
From: The Real Bev

Brent wrote:
> On 2008-12-13, The Real Bev <bashley101+M@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> And when Honda makes a V8 or inline 6 car with RWD, MT w/clutch I'll
>>> consider one.
>> How about a Toyota Land Cruiser?
>
> That would be a truck not a car.
>
>> All I wanted to see was the specs, but
>> the site insisted on showing me a lot of flashcrap instead so I'm not
>> sure about the manual transmission or drive axle, but it has a V8.
>
> That's because US marketing is about crap not technical things.

Then we can hardly blame the Big 3 for catering to crap-choosing buyers,
can we? You point your marketing strategy at the likeliest victims, right?

--
Cheers, Bev
==============================
All bleeding eventually stops.

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 2:24 pm
From: Evelyn Leeper

Jamie wrote:
>
> Evelyn Leeper wrote:
>> The year 2009 is a non-leap-year starting on a Thursday. The most
>> recent identical year was 1998 if you want to recycle an old calendar.
>> If not, you can, as you can any year, use May of the previous year for
>> January. Then about mid- to late January you can get a new calendar at
>> a half or a quarter of what they cost now.
>>
>> (Frankly, we bought quite a few calendars we really like--mathematics,
>> movies, etc.--and now re-use them as the appropriate years come up. The
>> one problem, for us anyway, is that the Jewish holidays are completely
>> wrong on them.)
>>
>> --
>> Evelyn C. Leeper
>> Be braver. You cannot cross a chasm in two small jumps.
>
> Have one from 1987? That year was the same as 2009 and 1998. I wish I
> still had that Miss Piggy calendar from 1981. The dates that were also
> identical to those of the upcoming year.

We actually have the 1981 Miss Piggy (proof, I suppose, that I save
everything forever :-) ), but we're probably going to go with the 1987
dinosaurs or the 1998 Civil War one.

--
Evelyn C. Leeper
Be braver. You cannot cross a chasm in two small jumps.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 2:24 pm
From: Evelyn Leeper

The Real Bev wrote:
>
>
> Macuser wrote:
>> I get at least 4 calendars every year from charities that want a
>> donation. Doesn't everybody? They from groups like the Wildlife
>> Foundation and they're beautiful. You can make a donation to a
>> likeminded charity and multiple calendars will start pouring in.
>
> Along with untold thousands of begging letters from the charities the
> first one sold your name to. When the "forward" on my mom's mail
> expired, the post office kindly told all the charities the address to
> which her mail had been forwarded, so now I receive all the begging
> letters for her at MY address.
>
> The only good part is that I get at least one pre-stamped return
> envelope each month, which stamps I cut off and glue to the few pieces
> of mail I'm actually forced to send. I think I have a lifetime supply
> of postage already.

Why not use the envelope by pasting a new label over the address? (Make
sure to black/white-out any bar codes on the front as well.)

--
Evelyn C. Leeper
Be braver. You cannot cross a chasm in two small jumps.

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 2:25 pm
From: bhanwaram@netscape.net

On Dec 13, 8:00 am, bhanwa...@netscape.net wrote:
> On Dec 6, 8:59 pm, "hall...@aol.com" <hall...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > big 3 saw customers wanted SUVs so they built them, gasoline cost
> > skyrocketed, fiancials tanked SUV sales dried up. big 3 now on edge of
> > bankruptcy.
>
> Well put.
>
> Now the big 3 are run by people who make 400+ times
> more than the basic worker, so they are roughly 400+
> times wiser, smarter, more ruthless, etc than a basic
> human person.
>
> Clearly, they should have seen what would happen when
> the gasoline price started to spike. (For that matter,
> shouldn't all other CEO's whose companies eventually
> suffer from a chain reaction to the price spike, also
> see that in advance?)
>
> The gasoline price spike was not a natural demand-supply
> thing, it was some sort of a weird unnatural freakish thing.
>
> So the big 3's management, who are 400+ times wiser,
> smarter, more ruthless, etc, than a normal human,
> should have gotten together and killed this gasoline
> price spike before it grew big enough to start killing
> their companies. That would have been the time to
> go to the congress, kick and screan, hire investigators,
> whatever they needed to use their 400+ super-human
> abilities to stop the gasoline price spike in its tracks.
>
> Why didn't they?

PS: To be fair, it's easy to have 20/20 hindsight.

On the other hand, if you are running a company
that makes cars, exactly how much smarts does
it take to see that outrageous gas prices would
kill off your SUV sales?

Is it that it just so much easier to beg for money
(or rather, ask for ransom, if you believe the "too
big to fail" theories) than to make noises and
efforts to stop something abnormal that's going
to kill your company down the road?

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 2:32 pm
From: MSfortune@mcpmail.com

James wrote:
> Have you found a really good one that you would recommend?

Personally, every one I have seen is retarded. I downgrade the
perceived intelligence level of the sender.

"It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a
fool than to open it and remove all doubt."-- Mark Twain (1835-1910) .

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 2:53 pm
From: The Real Bev

James wrote:
> Have you found a really good one that you would recommend?

Maybe. What's an e-card?

--
Cheers, Bev
==============================
All bleeding eventually stops.

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Saturday, December 13, 2008

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