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Today's topics:
* Do not purchase a new Big 3 vehicle in 2009. - 20 messages, 7 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/8da7acb0e572db51?hl=en
* Saving Money on Calendars - 2 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/9b326729403ee2be?hl=en
* Why not a holiday from auto buying? - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/9e36c73bdf3daf50?hl=en
* Your favorite free e-card? - 2 messages, 2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/8bf2062ff2236938?hl=en
==============================================================================
TOPIC: Do not purchase a new Big 3 vehicle in 2009.
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/8da7acb0e572db51?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 20 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 1:49 pm
From: Brent
On 2008-12-13, clams_casino <PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:
> Brent wrote:
>
>>On 2008-12-13, clams_casino <PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Brent wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>On 2008-12-13, clams_casino <PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Not at all. In other words, there's really no way to know if today's
>>>>>Malibus are equal to the quality of today's Accords without waiting 20
>>>>>years.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>Neither car has been made for 20 years.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>The intended point was that it will take many years before the true
>>>quality of a car built today will be determined. Meanwhile, should I
>>>invest in a brand that has a 10-20 year track record of being reliable
>>>(Accords and Civics have been produced since at least 1990)? Or one
>>>that has had a history of poor reliability. Hm - It'll be different
>>>this time ... trust me.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>The point is that the track record of the model is irrelevant because
>>its been replaced with new designs. The brand is a somewhat different
>>story and the 'track record' of the brand is often perception rather
>>than fact.
>>
>
> That may or may not be true, but why put out $30k for a vehicle that
> promises to be different...... this time? The track record of the
> manufacturer is what provides confidence to many buyers.
Track record? What is the track record? It's a series of people's
perceptions. Try to get someone who got a honda lemon to buy one again.
> It's hard to find many disgruntled owners of civics & Accords.
http://www.google.com/search?q=accord+lemon
Rather easy actually.
> It's
> much more common to find disgruntled Chevy owners (and GM in general vs.
> Honda, Toyota, Nissan).
No, it would take the same couple of seconds.
> You may want to believe it's different this time, but too many have been
> burnt with that perception to go back.
My point is that perception is the driver. I see you're coming around.
> Reputation is critical for a majority of car buyers.
Reputation based on perceptions, not facts.
== 2 of 20 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 1:51 pm
From: Brent
On 2008-12-13, clams_casino <PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:
> Brent wrote:
>
>>On 2008-12-13, Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>In article <gi0oue$jrh$1@news.motzarella.org>,
>>> Brent <tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>On 2008-12-13, clams_casino <PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Final cost of a Malibu vs Accord, for example may be similar in price
>>>>>off the lot. but the later will typically go 100k without significant
>>>>>maintenance and last typically twice as long, making it half the cost in
>>>>>the long run.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>How much of that is reality and how much of it is perception?
>>>>
>>>>Honda et al. have been very good at convincing buyers to actually TAKE
>>>>CARE OF THEIR CARS. This makes a huge difference in the long run.
>>>>Equally cared for cars (and the requirements for a Ford or GM product
>>>>aren't significantly different than for Honda or Toyota) is what is
>>>>required to make the comparison.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>No. "Honda et al" have been very good at producing cars that don't
>>>*need* much care.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Who said "much" for either case? It's either it gets done or it doesn't.
>>
>>
>>
>>
> You're assuming both use the same quality parts. I (and many others)
> don't share that perception.
I made no such assumption.
> Yes, all gas pumps, alternators, water pumps, etc will eventually fail.
> But, do they last 65k or 130k miles?
If you have some facts, present them. Otherwise it's just perceptions.
> It's been reported many times
> that GM tends to use lower quality parts to make up for their higher
> wage / benefits costs.
Yes they do. Mostly interior trim and other such things.
== 3 of 20 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 1:49 pm
From: Nate Nagel
The Real Bev wrote:
> lorad wrote:
>
>> PS: For the rest of you foreign agents and economic traitors in this
>> thread.. american cars are just fine.. they got 2 out of 3 of JD
>> Powers top quality ratings. So please stop your hallucinigenic
>> squawking.
>
> Who answers Powers' surveys? I posit that the 'average user' figures
> something is high-quality if it's nice-looking and lasts a year without
> problems.
>
Seeing as JD Power is an "initial quality" survey, that's about all they
*can* tell you. I'd like someone to run a survey on 10 or 20 year old
cars. Unfortunately the vehicles of most manufacturers bear little
resemblance to the models made 20 years ago, even under the skin. There
are some exceptions like VW (basic engine design dates back to 1973) but
not many.
nate
--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel
== 4 of 20 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 1:56 pm
From: Nate Nagel
Brent wrote:
> On 2008-12-13, clams_casino <PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:
>> Brent wrote:
>>
>>> On 2008-12-13, Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> In article <gi0oue$jrh$1@news.motzarella.org>,
>>>> Brent <tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On 2008-12-13, clams_casino <PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Final cost of a Malibu vs Accord, for example may be similar in price
>>>>>> off the lot. but the later will typically go 100k without significant
>>>>>> maintenance and last typically twice as long, making it half the cost in
>>>>>> the long run.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> How much of that is reality and how much of it is perception?
>>>>>
>>>>> Honda et al. have been very good at convincing buyers to actually TAKE
>>>>> CARE OF THEIR CARS. This makes a huge difference in the long run.
>>>>> Equally cared for cars (and the requirements for a Ford or GM product
>>>>> aren't significantly different than for Honda or Toyota) is what is
>>>>> required to make the comparison.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> No. "Honda et al" have been very good at producing cars that don't
>>>> *need* much care.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Who said "much" for either case? It's either it gets done or it doesn't.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> You're assuming both use the same quality parts. I (and many others)
>> don't share that perception.
>
> I made no such assumption.
>
>> Yes, all gas pumps, alternators, water pumps, etc will eventually fail.
>> But, do they last 65k or 130k miles?
>
> If you have some facts, present them. Otherwise it's just perceptions.
>
>> It's been reported many times
>> that GM tends to use lower quality parts to make up for their higher
>> wage / benefits costs.
>
> Yes they do. Mostly interior trim and other such things.
>
Eh, not always. While the older Delco components were darn near
bulletproof and easily serviceable when they did fail, the post-12SI
series alternators were a nightmare and nowhere near as reliable as
their Bosch or Nippondenso competition. (now you can't find a "rebuild
kit" for a Bosch alternator at Pep Boys, and not anywhere inexpensively,
but it's hard to find same for an old 10SI/12SI these days as well.)
nate
--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel
== 5 of 20 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 1:59 pm
From: edward ohare
On Sat, 13 Dec 2008 16:47:10 +0000 (UTC), Brent
<tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Perception is the game these days and GM still doesn't seem to
>understand that. Then again the media doesn't help either by acting like
>it is still 1968 and 99% of people drive domestic automobiles so they
>don't bother covering import recalls and problems for the most part.
I'm still wondering how Honda covered up the broken engine block
issue... where the block broke where the mount bolt went into it. It
was commone enough Honda engineered a moogie foogie kit that didn't
require block replacement.
== 6 of 20 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 2:01 pm
From: edward ohare
On Sat, 13 Dec 2008 08:20:34 -0700, wismel@yahoo.com wrote:
Don't buy a Big 3 vehicle in 2009?
Why not? They'll be real cheap at the bankruptcy sale.
== 7 of 20 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 2:03 pm
From: edward ohare
On Sat, 13 Dec 2008 10:03:28 -0800, John David Galt
<jdg@diogenes.sacramento.ca.us> wrote:
>wismel@yahoo.com wrote:
>> It's time to teach the Big 3 and their UAW co-conspirators* that the
>> American public does not need their products or companies as now
>> constructed. Buy a used vehicle or repair what you have. (You will
>> save a lot of money).
>
>Unfortunately, the tax man will take our money and give it to them anyway.
Actually not. The government will give them money but it will be up
to our grandchildren to pay it back. (Special appropriations with
borrowed money, and the fed debt is already $97,000 per houshold...
half of that accumulated the last 8 years).
== 8 of 20 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 2:03 pm
From: Brent
On 2008-12-13, The Real Bev <bashley101+M@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Brent wrote:
>> On 2008-12-13, clams_casino <PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:
>>> Brent wrote:
>>>> On 2008-12-13, clams_casino <PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Not at all. In other words, there's really no way to know if today's
>>>>> Malibus are equal to the quality of today's Accords without waiting 20
>>>>> years.
>>>>>
>>>> Neither car has been made for 20 years.
>>>
>>> The intended point was that it will take many years before the true
>>> quality of a car built today will be determined. Meanwhile, should I
>>> invest in a brand that has a 10-20 year track record of being reliable
>>> (Accords and Civics have been produced since at least 1990)? Or one
>>> that has had a history of poor reliability. Hm - It'll be different
>>> this time ... trust me.
>>
>> The point is that the track record of the model is irrelevant because
>> its been replaced with new designs. The brand is a somewhat different
>> story and the 'track record' of the brand is often perception rather
>> than fact. There are still numerous oldsmobiles from GMs darkest time in
>> the early 80s roaming the roads in the chicago area but I haven't seen a
>> honda from that era in a very very long time, maybe a decade now.
>
> My mom's '88 Eldorado has 58,000 miles on it right now. The dealer had
> sold her new belts and hoses and an engine rebuild before it hit 45K.
So a dealer stole from her. I bet the engine wasn't even opened.
> The electric doorlock on the passenger side doesn't work.
Sounds like it froze up from lack of use. Probably lube is all it needs.
I've repaired similiar issues in japanese cars getting on in age.
> The antenna-raising motor burned out.
20 years old and with few cycles on it. It may not even be burned out,
just stuck. someting went wrong with the power antenna on an '89 MX6 my
dad had... typical thing to fail in old cars too.
> The heater core rotted through.
That's quite common in cars that see 2 decades of service, even japanese
ones. (I replaced a heater core in a japan built mazda myself)
> The leather seats are cracking.
That tends to happen in 20 years if one hasn't taken good care of the
leather with the proper condintioners and cleaners.
> The AC has had serious service a couple of times.
AC doesn't like to sit. 58k miles in 20 years is hard on an AC system.
> There were other problems that she had to pay for in addition to
> quarterly "automatic" servicing, I just don't want to look through her
> receipts again -- I nearly cried the first time.
It sounds like the dealer was stealing from her.
> I'd call that piss poor and the blame is probably shared equally between
> the corrupt dealer and the manufacturer. Yet another case of wallet rape.
The car was taken to a corrupt dealer, they exist for all makes.
The car has issues typical of a 20 year old car of *ANY* make. But
because it's GM, it's a hunk of crap. That's my point. A honda beater
with with all the same issues is viewed by 'look, this car is 20 years
old and this all that's wrong with it'.
== 9 of 20 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 2:04 pm
From: Brent
On 2008-12-13, clams_casino <PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:
> Even if GM was able to provide a vehicle with equal (or even improved)
> quality as Honda, Toyota & Nissan, I suspect it will take generations
> before they'll be able to reverse their generally accepted reputation.
After all of this you agree, it is perceptions rather than facts that
are the driving factors.
== 10 of 20 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 2:05 pm
From: Brent
On 2008-12-13, The Real Bev <bashley101+M@gmail.com> wrote:
>> And when Honda makes a V8 or inline 6 car with RWD, MT w/clutch I'll
>> consider one.
>
> How about a Toyota Land Cruiser?
That would be a truck not a car.
> All I wanted to see was the specs, but
> the site insisted on showing me a lot of flashcrap instead so I'm not
> sure about the manual transmission or drive axle, but it has a V8.
That's because US marketing is about crap not technical things.
== 11 of 20 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 2:22 pm
From: "Dave"
>
>> Final cost of a Malibu vs Accord, for example may be similar in price
>> off the lot. but the later will typically go 100k without significant
>> maintenance and last typically twice as long, making it half the cost in
>> the long run.
>
> How much of that is reality and how much of it is perception?
>
> Honda et al. have been very good at convincing buyers to actually TAKE
> CARE OF THEIR CARS. This makes a huge difference in the long run.
> Equally cared for cars (and the requirements for a Ford or GM product
> aren't significantly different than for Honda or Toyota) is what is
> required to make the comparison.
I'd guesstimate a Malibu is pretty close (like 95% or better) the quality of
an Accord or a Camry. Most Malibus, if properly cared for, will probably
last as long as their Jap-designed counterparts.
BUT, you NAILED IT when you asked how much of it is perception?
That's all that matters to a car buyer... PERCEIVED value. The Jap designs
have been murdering the "Detroit" designs for many years now, in PERCEIVED
value. That isn't likely to change anytime soon. -Dave
== 12 of 20 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 2:23 pm
From: "Dave"
>
> No. "Honda et al" have been very good at producing cars that don't
> *need* much care.
>
Have you ever owned a Malibu? I have. It doesn't *need* much care to keep
it running and looking good for many years. Same as a Camry or Accord.
But, as I wrote earlier, there is a perception that the Malibu is not as
good. -Dave
== 13 of 20 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 2:22 pm
From: Nate Nagel
Dave wrote:
>>
>>> Final cost of a Malibu vs Accord, for example may be similar in price
>>> off the lot. but the later will typically go 100k without significant
>>> maintenance and last typically twice as long, making it half the cost in
>>> the long run.
>>
>> How much of that is reality and how much of it is perception?
>>
>> Honda et al. have been very good at convincing buyers to actually TAKE
>> CARE OF THEIR CARS. This makes a huge difference in the long run.
>> Equally cared for cars (and the requirements for a Ford or GM product
>> aren't significantly different than for Honda or Toyota) is what is
>> required to make the comparison.
>
> I'd guesstimate a Malibu is pretty close (like 95% or better) the
> quality of an Accord or a Camry. Most Malibus, if properly cared for,
> will probably last as long as their Jap-designed counterparts.
>
> BUT, you NAILED IT when you asked how much of it is perception?
>
> That's all that matters to a car buyer... PERCEIVED value. The Jap
> designs have been murdering the "Detroit" designs for many years now, in
> PERCEIVED value. That isn't likely to change anytime soon. -Dave
You forgot that at least the Camry is available with a manual
transmission. The Malibu, despite its roots as an Opel, is not. That
causes the PERCEPTION that GM doesn't care about car guys who want a
small 4-door sedan.
nate
--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel
== 14 of 20 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 2:33 pm
From: The Real Bev
Nate Nagel wrote:
> The Real Bev wrote:
>> lorad wrote:
>>
>>> PS: For the rest of you foreign agents and economic traitors in this
>>> thread.. american cars are just fine.. they got 2 out of 3 of JD
>>> Powers top quality ratings. So please stop your hallucinigenic
>>> squawking.
>> Who answers Powers' surveys? I posit that the 'average user' figures
>> something is high-quality if it's nice-looking and lasts a year without
>> problems.
>>
>
> Seeing as JD Power is an "initial quality" survey, that's about all they
> *can* tell you.
And people actually pay attention to that?
> I'd like someone to run a survey on 10 or 20 year old
> cars.
The Consumer Reports year-end guide gives ratings for older cars, but
they aren't all that informative -- "transmission" could be either a
minor adjustment or a complete rebuild.
--
Cheers, Bev
==============================
All bleeding eventually stops.
== 15 of 20 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 2:35 pm
From: Alan Baker
In article <gi1cl1$4s0$1@news.motzarella.org>, "Dave" <noway@nohow.not>
wrote:
> >
> > No. "Honda et al" have been very good at producing cars that don't
> > *need* much care.
> >
>
> Have you ever owned a Malibu? I have. It doesn't *need* much care to keep
> it running and looking good for many years. Same as a Camry or Accord.
Not even close. The build quality, the fit and finish, the quality of
components...
...all are inferior to a Honda Civic or Toyota Corolla.
>
> But, as I wrote earlier, there is a perception that the Malibu is not as
> good. -Dave
LOL
--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
<http://gallery.me.com/alangbaker/100008/DSCF0162/web.jpg>
== 16 of 20 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 2:36 pm
From: Alan Baker
In article <gi1a38$751$1@news.motzarella.org>,
Brent <tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 2008-12-13, Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> wrote:
> > In article <gi16re$6sr$1@news.motzarella.org>,
> > Brent <tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On 2008-12-13, Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> wrote:
> >> > In article <gi162g$pmt$3@news.motzarella.org>,
> >> > Brent <tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> On 2008-12-13, Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> wrote:
> >> >> > In article <gi0oue$jrh$1@news.motzarella.org>,
> >> >> > Brent <tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> On 2008-12-13, clams_casino <PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> > Final cost of a Malibu vs Accord, for example may be similar in
> >> >> >> > price
> >> >> >> > off the lot. but the later will typically go 100k without
> >> >> >> > significant
> >> >> >> > maintenance and last typically twice as long, making it half the
> >> >> >> > cost
> >> >> >> > in
> >> >> >> > the long run.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> How much of that is reality and how much of it is perception?
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Honda et al. have been very good at convincing buyers to actually
> >> >> >> TAKE
> >> >> >> CARE OF THEIR CARS. This makes a huge difference in the long run.
> >> >> >> Equally cared for cars (and the requirements for a Ford or GM
> >> >> >> product
> >> >> >> aren't significantly different than for Honda or Toyota) is what is
> >> >> >> required to make the comparison.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > No. "Honda et al" have been very good at producing cars that don't
> >> >> > *need* much care.
> >> >>
> >> >> Who said "much" for either case? It's either it gets done or it
> >> >> doesn't.
> >> >
> >> > And Hondas ("et al") will be better if you treat each one the same.
> >> >
> >> > Ignore the maintenance or do it, the japanese cars will be more reliable
> >> > than the american crap.
> >>
> >> Some of us have reliablity from 'american crap' that parallels the
> >> stories of the great hondas.... so I dunno.
> >
> > Anecdotal evidence is useless.
>
> except when it is for hondas obviously.
Except it's not anecdotal.
>
> >> And when Honda makes a V8 or inline 6 car with RWD, MT w/clutch I'll
> >> consider one.
>
> > You're really stretching the matter to avoid reality, aren't you?
>
> No, just pointing out that there are vehicle types your chosen makes
> ignore.
Nope. Just trying to ignore that the S2000 is a better vehicle than
*any* american made RWD vehicle. Yes: including the Corvette.
--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
<http://gallery.me.com/alangbaker/100008/DSCF0162/web.jpg>
== 17 of 20 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 2:39 pm
From: "Dave"
>> BUT, you NAILED IT when you asked how much of it is perception?
>>
>> That's all that matters to a car buyer... PERCEIVED value. The Jap
>> designs have been murdering the "Detroit" designs for many years now, in
>> PERCEIVED value. That isn't likely to change anytime soon. -Dave
>
> You forgot that at least the Camry is available with a manual
> transmission. The Malibu, despite its roots as an Opel, is not. That
> causes the PERCEPTION that GM doesn't care about car guys who want a small
> 4-door sedan.
>
> nate
I'm a car guy who likes small 4-door sedans. I don't really care what the
tranny is, though it does make the household (read: WIFE) a bit happier if
the tranny is an automatic.
It would be nice for GM to offer a 5-speed manual in a Malibu. But GM does
offer a Malibu that 99% or more of GM potential customers would be quite
happy with. Hard to fault GM for giving the customers (the vast majority of
them anyway) what they want.
I for one would LOVE to drive a 5-speed Malibu sometime. :) Nothing wrong
with the automatic though. -Dave
== 18 of 20 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 2:47 pm
From: The Real Bev
Brent wrote:
> On 2008-12-13, The Real Bev <bashley101+M@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> My mom's '88 Eldorado has 58,000 miles on it right now. The dealer had
>> sold her new belts and hoses and an engine rebuild before it hit 45K.
>
> So a dealer stole from her. I bet the engine wasn't even opened.
The bastard kept it for 2 weeks and was wildly uninformative about the
reasons.
>> The electric doorlock on the passenger side doesn't work.
>
> Sounds like it froze up from lack of use.
No, she used it quite a bit. The passenger can lock/unlock the driver's
side but the driver can't lock/unlock the passenger side. Clearly a
switch or a connection, but I'm not willing to take the door apart for a
little problem like that.
> Probably lube is all it needs.
> I've repaired similiar issues in japanese cars getting on in age.
Too much shigt is electric. I wonder if it's still possible to buy
all-manual cars (like they were Way Back When) with just
radio/heater/ac. The dumbest thing is the trunk lock, which requires a
$400 repair if somebody slams the trunk instead of easing it closed and
letting the mechanism take over. No, not me -- a friend's kid. There
is NO benefit derived with that stupid mechanism.
>> The antenna-raising motor burned out.
>
> 20 years old and with few cycles on it. It may not even be burned out,
> just stuck. someting went wrong with the power antenna on an '89 MX6 my
> dad had... typical thing to fail in old cars too.
Something stuck and it started making noise and smoking. I drove it to
the dealer who disconnected it, and my mom had it replaced the next time
she had it serviced.
>> The heater core rotted through.
>
> That's quite common in cars that see 2 decades of service, even japanese
> ones. (I replaced a heater core in a japan built mazda myself)
I shouldn'tt really complain about that, but I will anyway :-(
>
>> The leather seats are cracking.
>
> That tends to happen in 20 years if one hasn't taken good care of the
> leather with the proper condintioners and cleaners.
She took it in for top-drawer service every 3 months. If they didn't do
that, they should have for what they charged.
>> The AC has had serious service a couple of times.
>
> AC doesn't like to sit. 58k miles in 20 years is hard on an AC system.
She used it ALL the time. She frowned when I opened the windows on nice
days.
>> There were other problems that she had to pay for in addition to
>> quarterly "automatic" servicing, I just don't want to look through her
>> receipts again -- I nearly cried the first time.
>
> It sounds like the dealer was stealing from her.
All Cadillac dealers are crooks. Maybe ALL dealers are, but those are
the only ones with whom I have experience.
>> I'd call that piss poor and the blame is probably shared equally between
>> the corrupt dealer and the manufacturer. Yet another case of wallet rape.
>
> The car was taken to a corrupt dealer, they exist for all makes.
I had my suspicions.
> The car has issues typical of a 20 year old car of *ANY* make.
It's 20 years old NOW. The problems occurred long ago and long before
they should have.
> But
> because it's GM, it's a hunk of crap. That's my point. A honda beater
> with with all the same issues is viewed by 'look, this car is 20 years
> old and this all that's wrong with it'.
Yeah, but it's not touted as a top-of-the-line high-quality luxury
experience.
--
Cheers, Bev
==============================
All bleeding eventually stops.
== 19 of 20 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 2:48 pm
From: "'nam vet."
In article <03c8k41i1u31md3dklk706579b2ugli0rp@4ax.com>,
edward ohare <edward_ohare@nospam.yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:
> On Sat, 13 Dec 2008 08:20:34 -0700, wismel@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> Don't buy a Big 3 vehicle in 2009?
>
> Why not? They'll be real cheap at the bankruptcy sale.
some car manufacturers keep the repair codes secret. like only
authorized dealers can fix your car.
be aware ! be very aware !
--
When the Power of Love,replaces the Love of Power.
that's Evolution.
== 20 of 20 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 2:51 pm
From: The Real Bev
Brent wrote:
> On 2008-12-13, The Real Bev <bashley101+M@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> And when Honda makes a V8 or inline 6 car with RWD, MT w/clutch I'll
>>> consider one.
>> How about a Toyota Land Cruiser?
>
> That would be a truck not a car.
>
>> All I wanted to see was the specs, but
>> the site insisted on showing me a lot of flashcrap instead so I'm not
>> sure about the manual transmission or drive axle, but it has a V8.
>
> That's because US marketing is about crap not technical things.
Then we can hardly blame the Big 3 for catering to crap-choosing buyers,
can we? You point your marketing strategy at the likeliest victims, right?
--
Cheers, Bev
==============================
All bleeding eventually stops.
==============================================================================
TOPIC: Saving Money on Calendars
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/9b326729403ee2be?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 2:24 pm
From: Evelyn Leeper
Jamie wrote:
>
> Evelyn Leeper wrote:
>> The year 2009 is a non-leap-year starting on a Thursday. The most
>> recent identical year was 1998 if you want to recycle an old calendar.
>> If not, you can, as you can any year, use May of the previous year for
>> January. Then about mid- to late January you can get a new calendar at
>> a half or a quarter of what they cost now.
>>
>> (Frankly, we bought quite a few calendars we really like--mathematics,
>> movies, etc.--and now re-use them as the appropriate years come up. The
>> one problem, for us anyway, is that the Jewish holidays are completely
>> wrong on them.)
>>
>> --
>> Evelyn C. Leeper
>> Be braver. You cannot cross a chasm in two small jumps.
>
> Have one from 1987? That year was the same as 2009 and 1998. I wish I
> still had that Miss Piggy calendar from 1981. The dates that were also
> identical to those of the upcoming year.
We actually have the 1981 Miss Piggy (proof, I suppose, that I save
everything forever :-) ), but we're probably going to go with the 1987
dinosaurs or the 1998 Civil War one.
--
Evelyn C. Leeper
Be braver. You cannot cross a chasm in two small jumps.
== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 2:24 pm
From: Evelyn Leeper
The Real Bev wrote:
>
>
> Macuser wrote:
>> I get at least 4 calendars every year from charities that want a
>> donation. Doesn't everybody? They from groups like the Wildlife
>> Foundation and they're beautiful. You can make a donation to a
>> likeminded charity and multiple calendars will start pouring in.
>
> Along with untold thousands of begging letters from the charities the
> first one sold your name to. When the "forward" on my mom's mail
> expired, the post office kindly told all the charities the address to
> which her mail had been forwarded, so now I receive all the begging
> letters for her at MY address.
>
> The only good part is that I get at least one pre-stamped return
> envelope each month, which stamps I cut off and glue to the few pieces
> of mail I'm actually forced to send. I think I have a lifetime supply
> of postage already.
Why not use the envelope by pasting a new label over the address? (Make
sure to black/white-out any bar codes on the front as well.)
--
Evelyn C. Leeper
Be braver. You cannot cross a chasm in two small jumps.
==============================================================================
TOPIC: Why not a holiday from auto buying?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/9e36c73bdf3daf50?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 2:25 pm
From: bhanwaram@netscape.net
On Dec 13, 8:00 am, bhanwa...@netscape.net wrote:
> On Dec 6, 8:59 pm, "hall...@aol.com" <hall...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > big 3 saw customers wanted SUVs so they built them, gasoline cost
> > skyrocketed, fiancials tanked SUV sales dried up. big 3 now on edge of
> > bankruptcy.
>
> Well put.
>
> Now the big 3 are run by people who make 400+ times
> more than the basic worker, so they are roughly 400+
> times wiser, smarter, more ruthless, etc than a basic
> human person.
>
> Clearly, they should have seen what would happen when
> the gasoline price started to spike. (For that matter,
> shouldn't all other CEO's whose companies eventually
> suffer from a chain reaction to the price spike, also
> see that in advance?)
>
> The gasoline price spike was not a natural demand-supply
> thing, it was some sort of a weird unnatural freakish thing.
>
> So the big 3's management, who are 400+ times wiser,
> smarter, more ruthless, etc, than a normal human,
> should have gotten together and killed this gasoline
> price spike before it grew big enough to start killing
> their companies. That would have been the time to
> go to the congress, kick and screan, hire investigators,
> whatever they needed to use their 400+ super-human
> abilities to stop the gasoline price spike in its tracks.
>
> Why didn't they?
PS: To be fair, it's easy to have 20/20 hindsight.
On the other hand, if you are running a company
that makes cars, exactly how much smarts does
it take to see that outrageous gas prices would
kill off your SUV sales?
Is it that it just so much easier to beg for money
(or rather, ask for ransom, if you believe the "too
big to fail" theories) than to make noises and
efforts to stop something abnormal that's going
to kill your company down the road?
==============================================================================
TOPIC: Your favorite free e-card?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/8bf2062ff2236938?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 2:32 pm
From: MSfortune@mcpmail.com
James wrote:
> Have you found a really good one that you would recommend?
Personally, every one I have seen is retarded. I downgrade the
perceived intelligence level of the sender.
"It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a
fool than to open it and remove all doubt."-- Mark Twain (1835-1910) .
== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 2:53 pm
From: The Real Bev
James wrote:
> Have you found a really good one that you would recommend?
Maybe. What's an e-card?
--
Cheers, Bev
==============================
All bleeding eventually stops.
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