Frugal Living: Feb 7, 2008

Thursday, February 7, 2008

25 new messages in 14 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: 1099-R tax question
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/a3871b8a4ca96e02?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 7 2008 12:54 pm
From: "OhioGuy"

I've been trying to finish my 1040 tax form, but have run into some
difficulties. My big problem is the 1099-R form, which shows the rollover
we did from a 457 plan to an intermediary account at Vanguard, and finally
into a Vanguard Roth IRA. We got two 1099-R forms. One says 0 was
withheld, and the other says that 10% was withheld for the IRS. I'm not
exactly sure how to enter this on my 1040. I obviously don't want to be
double taxed, if they've already taken 10%!

On the first 1099-R box 7, it says "G", and on the other it says "02".
Any idea what these might mean? Thanks!

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 7 2008 1:01 pm
From: clams_casino

OhioGuy wrote:

> I've been trying to finish my 1040 tax form, but have run into some
>difficulties. My big problem is the 1099-R form, which shows the rollover
>we did from a 457 plan to an intermediary account at Vanguard, and finally
>into a Vanguard Roth IRA. We got two 1099-R forms. One says 0 was
>withheld, and the other says that 10% was withheld for the IRS. I'm not
>exactly sure how to enter this on my 1040. I obviously don't want to be
>double taxed, if they've already taken 10%!
>
> On the first 1099-R box 7, it says "G", and on the other it says "02".
>Any idea what these might mean? Thanks!
>
>
>
>
Have you called Vanguard? Certainly they have a help line for their
tax forms. I know Fidelity does.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 7 2008 1:42 pm
From: Dennis

On Thu, 7 Feb 2008 15:54:10 -0500, "OhioGuy" <none@none.net> wrote:

When you put them together, it makes G0 2.

Dennis (evil)
--
"There is a fine line between participation and mockery" - Wally

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Can't pay? Just walk away.
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/5a07413ffe1cd66b?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 7 2008 12:56 pm
From: Seerialmom

On Feb 7, 9:45 am, Larry Bud <larrybud2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > And please spare me the canard about how it's a Catch-22 because you
> > can't fix a bad credit rating without being able to borrow money,
> > because it isn't true.
>
> Not only that, paying your rent on time every month will help ones
> credit rating.

Since when did paying "rent" on time help a credit rating? Landlords
don't submit payment records to the big 3 credit reporting agencies;
however if you default and get evicted; the judgement from that might.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Am I paranoid about saving?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/d8876827bf8e4634?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 7 2008 1:08 pm
From: ranck@vt.edu

oprah.chopra@gmail.com wrote:

> 1) Just defending yourself in a lawsuit that you are 'right' can cost
> you 100k . If you lose, expect to be in debt 10X that much! I suppose
> a counter argument is not to have too much assetts in your own name,
> thus reducing the size of a judgement against you? Is that right?

You should look into what is called an "umbrella policy." It covers
you against large judgements and is very cheap (because they are
really not very likely).

> 2) Long-term health care in case of medical problems as you get
> older . I am not sure about this one, does insurance cover this?

Depends on your insurance. You can buy specific insurance for
long term health care, and some employer provided health insurance
covers it, but you have to check with your specific employer's
insurer about what the limits are.

> 3) One 4-year college education at a top school for 2-kids will easily
> set you back 250k

If your kid gets into Harvard he'll be able to pay off some loans
when he gets done. Also, there are grants and other things which,
perversely enough, help pay for college if you don't have too
much in savings.

> 4) Emergency medical procedures are expensive, particularly if you
> want the best surgeons to do them. Again does insurance cover this?

Emergency medical procedures are generally done by the first
available qualified doctor. If you have time to pick an choose it's
not an emergency. Yes, insurance generally covers this, again within
limits.

> 5) What if your kids develop autism or some other mental/physical
> disability. Who is going to pay for their care? I am curious what do
> families do in these cases, does government provide any help or
> insurance again.

You suck it up and deal with it. Some employer provided health insurance
will pay for some things, but it varies and has limits.

> 6) What if your parents or sibling runs into any one of the above
> problems, is it your duty to bail them out?

Not if you haven't co-signed a promisory note or something. You
are responsible for yourself and your dependants and usually
your spouse. Your parents or siblings are not your legal responsibility.

> Anything else to add/correct?

I think you worry too much.

Bill Ranck
Blacksburg, Va.

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 7 2008 1:20 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

me@privacy.net wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote

>>> 3) One 4-year college education at a top
>>> school for 2-kids will easily set you back 250k

>> It aint the only way to fund that.

> What other way you suggest?

Have the kids pay for it themselves, like you are doing.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 7 2008 4:24 pm
From: "Melissa"

<oprah.chopra@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:f041e4fe-88d6-4824-916d-77c7ea014a52@i29g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> Most people are short-sighted and can not see the long-term benefits
> of savings. I am in my early 30's and here are the situations I remind
> myself for reasons to save. Perhaps I am naive or paranoid so am
> looking for your experiences in these situations.
>
> 3) One 4-year college education at a top school for 2-kids will easily
> set you back 250k

I have 3 sons in college. They are all paying their own way. There is no way
we could have funded even one of them. All are paying as they go, no school
loans or help from the Fed. One son & his wife have graduated already and
he has gone on for his Masters. One is still plugging away with his wife,
the other is at a State school working full time and going to school part
time. They have all worked full time since they married and don't expect
anyone to pay their way, nor do they want to borrow huge amounts of money.
They are 23, 26 and 28.

Mel

==============================================================================
TOPIC: BEST LCD OR PLASMA 42" TV SET ON MARKET???
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/3cb34b276c0ce20e?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 7 2008 1:16 pm
From: Dennis

On Wed, 06 Feb 2008 23:08:40 -0500, Shawn Hirn <srhi@comcast.net>
wrote:

>In article <nl6kq3t9q83tud99nl96pajfr8454coibh@4ax.com>,
> Dennis <dgw80@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 06 Feb 2008 05:39:41 -0500, Shawn Hirn <srhi@comcast.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >My Scientific Atlanta HD DVD box from Comcast has an HDMI connector;
>> >however, my HD TV does not, so I use its component video connectors.
>> >Works fine for TV viewing and recording.
>>
>> Please explain how you record HD signal from component (not composite
>> or S-video) outputs in full resolution.
>
>I haven't tried it in full resolution. What I do is record it to my DVR,
>then record it to my DVD set-top recorder or record directly to video
>tape or standard definition DVD. I don't own an optical media recorder
>that handles high definition media, so I have no way to try it.

What you are recording is down-converted to Standard Def NTSC by your
DVR. Which can still look pretty good -- close to DVD quality -- but
is not High Def. There is only a very limited, very expensive set of
hardware available that will capture the output of component or HDMI
at full resolution High Def, and then the uncompressed stream is
something like 30GBytes per hour.

Dennis (evil)
--
I'm behind the eight ball, ahead of the curve, riding the wave,
dodging the bullet and pushing the envelope. -George Carlin

==============================================================================
TOPIC: The One-Page Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion. Now you have no
excuse for not reading it!
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/f273668af3697a63?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 7 2008 1:19 pm
From: z

On Feb 4, 1:44 pm, professorpaul <deadgo...@comcast.net> wrote:
> You *DO* understand that that is a hoax????

Um, it's not that they hate Jews because they are deceived by a pile
of BS.
It's that they are deceived by a pile of BS, because they hate Jews.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: What is your water usage?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/bd562b37685d1e02?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 7 2008 2:09 pm
From: "AllEmailDeletedImmediately"

"George" <george@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:zdednTzx3LeQpDbanZ2dnUVZ_h6dnZ2d@comcast.com...
> Dawn wrote:
>> On Wed, 06 Feb 2008 13:58:27 -0500, hchickpea@hotmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> I just had a chance to do some comparisons, and I'm stunned how much
>>> less water we are using in our manufactured home in Alabama than we
>>> were in our old home in south Florida. There are a number of factors
>>> involved, including climate, but the variations in useage bear
>>> examining.
>>>
>>> If you want to compare from your own water bills, a hundred cubic feet
>>> of water is 750 gallons.
>>>
>>
>> for a quick second there I was very unhappy. I just got a bill in the
>> past couple of weeks and did the math. Used 55000 gallons of water.
>> I was like soooo annoyed and thinking that is way too much water we
>> are using. Looking at my past useage it was right in line with what
>> we used the last two years at this time. Then I remembered.....it is
>> a two month bill. Whew. 27500 is still a lot of water but not quite
>> so bad for a month.
>> Dawn, still thinking we could do better.
>
> We use ~2,000 gallons/month for two people. That includes laundry and an
> automatic dishwasher.

we use 2k-3k/month as well. top load washer and dishwater. how the hell do
you use 33k gal of water a month unless you have a farmette? that's more
that i use in a yr.

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 7 2008 2:18 pm
From: Dawn

On Thu, 07 Feb 2008 22:09:18 GMT, "AllEmailDeletedImmediately"
<derjda@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
>"George" <george@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
>news:zdednTzx3LeQpDbanZ2dnUVZ_h6dnZ2d@comcast.com...

>>> for a quick second there I was very unhappy. I just got a bill in the
>>> past couple of weeks and did the math. Used 55000 gallons of water.
>>> I was like soooo annoyed and thinking that is way too much water we
>>> are using. Looking at my past useage it was right in line with what
>>> we used the last two years at this time. Then I remembered.....it is
>>> a two month bill. Whew. 27500 is still a lot of water but not quite
>>> so bad for a month.
>>> Dawn, still thinking we could do better.
>>
>> We use ~2,000 gallons/month for two people. That includes laundry and an
>> automatic dishwasher.
>
>we use 2k-3k/month as well. top load washer and dishwater. how the hell do
>you use 33k gal of water a month unless you have a farmette? that's more
>that i use in a yr.
>
Bad, bad math. I forgot a step. We use 2750 a month ave. this time
of year.
Dawn, feeling a whole lot better now.

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 7 2008 3:24 pm
From: "AllEmailDeletedImmediately"

"Dawn" <linny4@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:tr0nq39t25ie2sa27lplv3nf13l06hbsv7@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 07 Feb 2008 22:09:18 GMT, "AllEmailDeletedImmediately"
> <derjda@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>"George" <george@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
>>news:zdednTzx3LeQpDbanZ2dnUVZ_h6dnZ2d@comcast.com...
>
>>>> for a quick second there I was very unhappy. I just got a bill in the
>>>> past couple of weeks and did the math. Used 55000 gallons of water.
>>>> I was like soooo annoyed and thinking that is way too much water we
>>>> are using. Looking at my past useage it was right in line with what
>>>> we used the last two years at this time. Then I remembered.....it is
>>>> a two month bill. Whew. 27500 is still a lot of water but not quite
>>>> so bad for a month.
>>>> Dawn, still thinking we could do better.
>>>
>>> We use ~2,000 gallons/month for two people. That includes laundry and an
>>> automatic dishwasher.
>>
>>we use 2k-3k/month as well. top load washer and dishwater. how the hell
>>do
>>you use 33k gal of water a month unless you have a farmette? that's more
>>that i use in a yr.
>>
> Bad, bad math. I forgot a step. We use 2750 a month ave. this time
> of year.
> Dawn, feeling a whole lot better now.

yeah, but chickpea used 33k!!!
>

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 7 2008 3:30 pm
From: hchickpea@hotmail.com

On Thu, 07 Feb 2008 23:24:04 GMT, "AllEmailDeletedImmediately"
<derjda@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
>"Dawn" <linny4@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:tr0nq39t25ie2sa27lplv3nf13l06hbsv7@4ax.com...
>> On Thu, 07 Feb 2008 22:09:18 GMT, "AllEmailDeletedImmediately"
>> <derjda@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"George" <george@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
>>>news:zdednTzx3LeQpDbanZ2dnUVZ_h6dnZ2d@comcast.com...
>>
>>>>> for a quick second there I was very unhappy. I just got a bill in the
>>>>> past couple of weeks and did the math. Used 55000 gallons of water.
>>>>> I was like soooo annoyed and thinking that is way too much water we
>>>>> are using. Looking at my past useage it was right in line with what
>>>>> we used the last two years at this time. Then I remembered.....it is
>>>>> a two month bill. Whew. 27500 is still a lot of water but not quite
>>>>> so bad for a month.
>>>>> Dawn, still thinking we could do better.
>>>>
>>>> We use ~2,000 gallons/month for two people. That includes laundry and an
>>>> automatic dishwasher.
>>>
>>>we use 2k-3k/month as well. top load washer and dishwater. how the hell
>>>do
>>>you use 33k gal of water a month unless you have a farmette? that's more
>>>that i use in a yr.
>>>
>> Bad, bad math. I forgot a step. We use 2750 a month ave. this time
>> of year.
>> Dawn, feeling a whole lot better now.
>
>yeah, but chickpea used 33k!!!
>>

...and I'm still trying to figure that one out, since that was from a
fairly low bill!! I know that topping off a swimming pool can mean a
hose running for about four hours, but even that should be not much
more than a thousand gallons. There were a couple of times I had to
drain and refill the whole thing, which was over 15,000 gallons, but
that wasn't (trust me) an everyday occurence.

I'm beginning to wonder if the meter was being read at ten times the
actual amount. I think I may have to call some of the ex-neighbors
and see what their usage has been. Oh well, whatever it was, it ain't
happening now.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: 17" Apple iMac Superdrive now only for 60 Pounds Only .. www.
shopndiscount.com
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/84f485a47dd0b14a?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 7 2008 2:11 pm
From: "kenny.mcgrill@googlemail.com"

17" Apple iMac Superdrive now only for 60 Pounds Only .. www.shopndiscount.com

==============================================================================
TOPIC: IDT wants to charge me a dollar to send me a bill
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/ac164cb61a75e7fd?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 7 2008 2:14 pm
From: "AllEmailDeletedImmediately"

"Terry" <kilowatt@charter.net> wrote in message
news:pc1kq3ttlt7gegde6kbrnqm5etehdnvqlf@4ax.com...
> IDT added a dollar to my three dollar phone bill. It was to send me a
> paper statment.
>
> I asked for a hard copy bill, only because it is a pain in the ass to
> have to log on to the utility company's web site to check my bill.
>
> I would love it if they just sent the statement in an email, but they
> don't do it that way. I have to set up a username and password.
> I pay the bill using direct draft so the only reason I want to see my
> statement is to check the call log. I then just throw the statement
> away.
>
> We are talking about a phone bill not a CIA secret document.
>
> Just sending an email should be enough security just to view the bill.
> I told them I was not going to pay for them to send me a bill. They
> could just cancel my service. They waived the charge, but ignored my
> suggestion just to email it to me.

this just pisses me right off. it's a business job to send me a bill.
it's not
mine to go find it. what they really want is for you to forget to go get
it
and be late so they can slap you with a large late payment.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Has college dropout done the impossible and created a perpetual motion
machine?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/2ebb35c6e713de31?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 7 2008 2:17 pm
From: "AllEmailDeletedImmediately"

Thane Heins is nervous and hopeful. It's Jan. 24, a Thursday afternoon,
and in four days the Ottawa-area native will travel to Boston where he'll
demonstrate an invention that appears - though he doesn't dare say it -
to operate as a perpetual motion machine.

The audience, esteemed Massachusetts Institute of Technology professor
Markus Zahn, could either deflate Heins' heretical claims or add momentum
to a 20-year obsession that has broken up his marriage and lost him custody
of his two young daughters.

Zahn is a leading expert on electromagnetic and electronic systems. In a
rare move for any reputable academic, he has agreed to give Heins'
creation an open-minded look rather than greet it with outright dismissal.

It's a pivotal moment. The invention, at its very least, could moderately
improve the efficiency of induction motors, used in everything from
electric cars to ceiling fans. At best it means a way of tapping the
mysterious powers of electromagnetic fields to produce more work out
of less effort, seemingly creating electricity from nothing.

more at the toronto star:

http://www.thestar.com/sciencetech/article/300042

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Save Money-Stay At Home!
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/6518857f3e9d97dd?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 7 2008 2:35 pm
From: richie1115

It's getting really expensive to drive a car.

We all know this. However, we have been programmed to think of fuel
cost as miles per gallon. The more miles per gallon, the better.

This view fosters consumption. We say, "my car gets 20 miles per
gallon, this is OK." Combine this with credit purchases of fuel, and
we do not feel the true cost of fuel consumption.

Its time we look at fuel from a much different view. A new way of
seeing the fossil-fuel supported economy. Let's look at how much money
it takes to drive my car one mile, or kilometer.

-MILES PER DOLLAR-

When we look at fuel this way, we get an immediate feeling of the high
cost of moving ourselves and our family from one place to another. We
also clearly understand how much it costs to work outside our homes.

At the Link below, I have included a miles-per-dollar calculator for
you to immediately determine the cost of fuel to drive your car
anywhere. It is truly enlightening.

Home Income becomes more important every day for two reasons:

1) We don't consume automotive fuel and cost when we work from home.

2) We can use home income to help pay for our automotive fuel
consumption and cost when we leave the house.

To find out more about the best income sites for home income and the
Miles Per Dollar Calculator, please visit http://www.best-income-sites.com/

Miles Per Dollar Gas Calculator

Gadgets powered by Google

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 7 2008 4:31 pm
From: Al Bundy

richie1115 wrote:
> It's getting really expensive to drive a car.
>
This reminded me of that Seinfeld episode where they try to sell a
"show about nothing."

==============================================================================
TOPIC: garbage disposal problem
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/3de3b07d6b3c16f9?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 7 2008 2:39 pm
From: "AllEmailDeletedImmediately"

when i used it this morning, it stopped spinning, but still hums. i can
find nothing in it that's causing it. i pushed the button on the bottom
and used the allen wrench on the bottome to turn it, but it just hums and
won't turn.

anyone know what the problem might be?

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 7 2008 4:13 pm
From: Al Bundy

AllEmailDeletedImmediately wrote:
> when i used it this morning, it stopped spinning, but still hums. i can
> find nothing in it that's causing it. i pushed the button on the bottom
> and used the allen wrench on the bottome to turn it, but it just hums and
> won't turn.
>
> anyone know what the problem might be?

If it won't turn, especially if you can't turn it with the wrench
either, the motor must be locked up. Of course, you look down the
drain and try to move the mechanism in both directions in case
something is jambed. Over a period of time, water get into the
bearings and they rust up. Beyond what you are doing, and perhaps more
aggressively in both directions, it sounds like time to go shopping.
They are not very expensive or difficult to install. If you do
purchase a new one, finding one exactly the same as you have makes
changing it easier.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 7 2008 3:36 pm
From: hchickpea@hotmail.com

On Thu, 07 Feb 2008 22:39:33 GMT, "AllEmailDeletedImmediately"
<derjda@hotmail.com> wrote:

>when i used it this morning, it stopped spinning, but still hums. i can
>find nothing in it that's causing it. i pushed the button on the bottom
>and used the allen wrench on the bottome to turn it, but it just hums and
>won't turn.
>
>anyone know what the problem might be?
>
If it was loose with the allen wrench, then my vote would be (an
unlikely) separation of the grinding shaft from the motor, or a motor
gone bad. In either case, I'd just replace the whole thing or
eliminate it entirely and start a compost bucket. We do just fine
without one, and I'll bet it contributed to our high water usage. :-)
Yeah, that's it.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Cheap wholesale gucci prada adidas lacoste tainers, discount nike
jordan af1 dunk sb neakers shoes nba sports shoes china supplier
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/139d27db54f4d5ba?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 7 2008 2:48 pm
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== 1 of 1 ==
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25 new messages in 13 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

== 1 of 6 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 7 2008 4:44 am
From: "Chloe"

"Beachcomber" <invalid@notreal.none> wrote in message
news:47aa6566.3777890@news.verizon.net...
><snip>
> It makes no sense to declare someone a deadbeat and then say "for you,
> you get a 9%, 10%, or 15% mortgage when every else is paying 5 1/2%
> or, we will start you at a low rate for a year, but after that, you
> are going to pay bonzo big bucks at twice or three times the market
> rate.

Risk vs. reward. Read up.

== 2 of 6 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 7 2008 6:36 am
From: Napoleon

On Wed, 06 Feb 2008 19:29:18 -0600, Snowbound
<loosebowels@ixnay.invalid> wrote:
>Golly gee, thanks Congress! Thanks, Mr. President! You all may be total
>fuckheads intent on ruining the country, but you are OUR kinds of
>fuckheads! These are the kinds of moments that make you glad we sent all
>those soldiers to die in Iraq. This is what it means to be American.
>
><http://money.cnn.com/2008/02/06/real_estate/walking_away/index.htm?secti
>on=money_topstories>

Indeed. The whole American economy is based on borrowing Chinese money
to buy Chinese manufactured goods. Thank god for our wonderful
relationship with a communist country. All the Korean war vets should
be proud.

As long as the stock market is happy with the fed's interest rate cuts
and Joe Schmoo gets his rebate check to buy plastic Chinese crap at
Walmart, EVERYTHING'S GOLDEN! And now everyone who bought overinflated
houses with borrowed Chinese money can get out of their bad decisions
with no consequences. Yippee!

All this makes so much more sense than an actual economy based on
manufacturing goods to sell to your own people, and keeping the money
in the country. Oh - and keeping your military troops in your own
country on the border.

-N

== 3 of 6 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 7 2008 9:43 am
From: Larry Bud

> Personally I think its wrong that Americans allow private companies
> (the credit reporting agencies) keep secret files on citizens that
> determine whether they are "credit worthy or not" and largely
> determine what they will pay in interest charges for credit cards,
> mortgages, etc.
>
> What if you walked into a grocery store that charged high or low
> prices for the same item dependant upon the the race or gender of the
> person making the purchase? Nobody would put up with that...

Completely bogus analogy. The grocery store has no risk when they
sell groceries to a deadbeat, because they're getting the money at the
time of the purchase.

== 4 of 6 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 7 2008 9:45 am
From: Larry Bud

> And please spare me the canard about how it's a Catch-22 because you
> can't fix a bad credit rating without being able to borrow money,
> because it isn't true.

Not only that, paying your rent on time every month will help ones
credit rating.

== 5 of 6 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 7 2008 10:22 am
From: PaPaPeng

On Wed, 06 Feb 2008 19:29:18 -0600, Snowbound
<loosebowels@ixnay.invalid> wrote:

>Just don't declare bankruptcy, like someone in real financial trouble
>might consider. If you declare bankruptcy, like some joker who lost
>everything to unforseen disaster or illness, you are putting yourself at
>the mercy of courts and banks (who make today's bankruptcy laws). If you
>just walk away from a massive mortgage YOU freely chose, you get off
>scott free, without any substantial penalty! After all, what
>asset-draining cancer or chronic workplace injury could POSSIBLY be
>worse than losing a home you couldn't afford in the first place?

This sounds good. The most logical part is the lender who made that
unjustifiably risky loan to Mr. J Doe will lilkely disappear as a
corporate entity before they catch up with Mr. Doe who walked away
from his foreclosed house. Whichever new company that takes over the
property will likely find it impossible or just too costly to clear
the paperwork necessary to track down John Doe the walker and make him
pay. There will be a few millions of such foreclosures that will
trash any industrywide attempt to clean them up.

== 6 of 6 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 7 2008 11:09 am
From: "Rod Speed"

Napoleon <anarch@666yes.net> wrote:
> On Wed, 06 Feb 2008 19:29:18 -0600, Snowbound
> <loosebowels@ixnay.invalid> wrote:
>> Golly gee, thanks Congress! Thanks, Mr. President! You all may be
>> total fuckheads intent on ruining the country, but you are OUR kinds
>> of fuckheads! These are the kinds of moments that make you glad we
>> sent all those soldiers to die in Iraq. This is what it means to be
>> American.
>>
>> <http://money.cnn.com/2008/02/06/real_estate/walking_away/index.htm?secti
>> on=money_topstories>
>
> Indeed. The whole American economy is based on borrowing Chinese money
> to buy Chinese manufactured goods. Thank god for our wonderful
> relationship with a communist country. All the Korean war vets should
> be proud.
>
> As long as the stock market is happy with the fed's interest rate cuts
> and Joe Schmoo gets his rebate check to buy plastic Chinese crap at
> Walmart, EVERYTHING'S GOLDEN! And now everyone who bought overinflated
> houses with borrowed Chinese money can get out of their bad decisions
> with no consequences. Yippee!

> All this makes so much more sense than an actual economy
> based on manufacturing goods to sell to your own people,

Modern first world economys are about a hell of a lot more
than just that, and have been for a hell of a long time now.

> and keeping the money in the country.

And that stupid blinkered mentality is what produced the worst of the great depression.

> Oh - and keeping your military troops in your own country on the border.

Havent done that for centurys now. Just as well too now that the US oil has run out.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Make Money With GOOGLE- Free To Join
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/61af6a86668a4790?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 7 2008 5:32 am
From: nagi54

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== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 7 2008 7:36 am
From: Dawn

On Thu, 07 Feb 2008 04:20:08 -0000, gheston@hiwaay.net (Gary Heston)
wrote:

>In article <llujq35tsnr9ldgac2q675av03kfrbmaia@4ax.com>,
> <hchickpea@hotmail.com> wrote:
> [ ... ]
>>3300 gallons compared to 33000 gallons is a tenfold difference with no
>>pain, and the camper use of 750 gallons per month is 1/4 of that
>>amount. The differences are amazing, and I've become convinced that
>>the water saving devices are all they claim to be. Even though our
>>water here is essentially free, I'm tickled, since the septic system
>>will be that much less loaded and the costs of heating water will be
>>reduced.
>
>FYI, my usage between the two houses last month was 5800 gallons, with
>no particular efforts at conservation.
>
>How did things hold up to the storms this morning?
>
>
>Gary

Gosh we use wayyyy too much water. I never thought about it except of
course during the summer. I know that our pud bills are a lot
smaller than everyone we know so thought we were doing okay.
Dawn, thinking about ways to conserve.

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 7 2008 8:51 am
From:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Dawn" <linny4@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:g99mq3thnbcqmt42uetoctj026udvi7p0g@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 07 Feb 2008 04:20:08 -0000, gheston@hiwaay.net (Gary Heston)
> wrote:
>
>>In article <llujq35tsnr9ldgac2q675av03kfrbmaia@4ax.com>,
>> <hchickpea@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> [ ... ]
>>>3300 gallons compared to 33000 gallons is a tenfold difference with no
>>>pain, and the camper use of 750 gallons per month is 1/4 of that
>>>amount. The differences are amazing, and I've become convinced that
>>>the water saving devices are all they claim to be. Even though our
>>>water here is essentially free, I'm tickled, since the septic system
>>>will be that much less loaded and the costs of heating water will be
>>>reduced.
>>
>>FYI, my usage between the two houses last month was 5800 gallons, with
>>no particular efforts at conservation.
>>
>>How did things hold up to the storms this morning?
>>
>>
>>Gary
>
> Gosh we use wayyyy too much water. I never thought about it except of
> course during the summer. I know that our pud bills are a lot
> smaller than everyone we know so thought we were doing okay.
> Dawn, thinking about ways to conserve.

Wow! We use less than 30,000 gallons a year for 2 people. The minimum water
bill is $40.00 a year for 30,000 gallons or less, and that's what we pay.
We're in upstate NY, so it's not like we ever need to water anything outside
and we don't have a pool.

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 7 2008 8:58 am
From: George

Dawn wrote:
> On Wed, 06 Feb 2008 13:58:27 -0500, hchickpea@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>> I just had a chance to do some comparisons, and I'm stunned how much
>> less water we are using in our manufactured home in Alabama than we
>> were in our old home in south Florida. There are a number of factors
>> involved, including climate, but the variations in useage bear
>> examining.
>>
>> If you want to compare from your own water bills, a hundred cubic feet
>> of water is 750 gallons.
>>
>
> for a quick second there I was very unhappy. I just got a bill in the
> past couple of weeks and did the math. Used 55000 gallons of water.
> I was like soooo annoyed and thinking that is way too much water we
> are using. Looking at my past useage it was right in line with what
> we used the last two years at this time. Then I remembered.....it is
> a two month bill. Whew. 27500 is still a lot of water but not quite
> so bad for a month.
> Dawn, still thinking we could do better.

We use ~2,000 gallons/month for two people. That includes laundry and an
automatic dishwasher.

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 7 2008 9:02 am
From: hchickpea@hotmail.com

On Thu, 07 Feb 2008 04:20:08 -0000, gheston@hiwaay.net (Gary Heston)
wrote:

Hey Gary, haven't heard from you in a bit, nor seen you here. Did you
get the email I sent about a week ago?

We fared fine. Being below the brow of the hill does make a
difference. The greenhouse was flapping a bit, as usual, and we could
see the lighting from the cell that passed on to Nashville north of
us, and were awakened at 3 by the weather radio, and didn't get enough
sleep, but have nothing to complain about. The creek was full from
the rain, and I noticed a run-off problem that I'm going to need to
address. I also realize that I'm going to need a settling tank for
any continuous water draw from the stream. The riled up sediment had
it pretty brown. Once the major freezing time is past I want to fool
around with a ram pump I made.

Looks like Huntsville and Decatur dodged a bullet on the cell down
there. Big long quarter-mile wide path and it lifted just before
hitting Decatur.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Invitation to visit my Zlio store: newshop
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/dc6af13c1ccc25a3?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 7 2008 9:25 am
From: wed7418

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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 7 2008 9:27 am
From: "rick++"

The Houston Science museum has a couple dozen in their energy wing
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in,
dead pixels, faded colors etc. I presume they either leave them on
12 hours a day or never turn them off.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Frugal rent?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/c11d410cd5a47493?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 7 2008 9:30 am
From: "rick++"

> Wonder how they got their utilities connected?

> Most companies check credit ratings before hooking up these days.

In a relative's name.
You can leave a deposit about three months usage,
but who would have that much money.
Tehre may be anti-discrimination clauses for certain people.

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 7 2008 9:34 am
From: "rick++"

> Most communities have zoning regs in place that single family homes
> are to be used for single families.
>
> Renting out the rooms won't work.

In southern California when neighborhoods were
"transitioning" in the 1990s and neighbors tried suing or city
authorities tried enforcement, the ACLU went to
court very quickly and prevented enforcement.
The main thing that saved my condo area was there was
only one parking space per bedroom and no street parking
nearby. This is very unattractive to people that have 3,4,5
vehicles PER bedroom.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 7 2008 10:45 am
From: James

On Feb 7, 12:34 pm, "rick++" <rick...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Most communities have zoning regs in place that single family homes
> > are to be used for single families.
>
> > Renting out the rooms won't work.
>
> In southern California when neighborhoods were
> "transitioning" in the 1990s and neighbors tried suing or city
> authorities tried enforcement, the ACLU went to
> court very quickly and prevented enforcement.
> The main thing that saved my condo area was there was
> only one parking space per bedroom and no street parking
> nearby. This is very unattractive to people that have 3,4,5
> vehicles PER bedroom.

In Toronto, where rental units are scarce, basement apartments in
single home families are legal.

In my suburb, they struggled with the issue, and wrote up bylaws to
force people out of them. They required two full exits, other major
renovations and you had to register the apartment, have it inspected
etc.

My house had a one basement which did not conform, but I already had
tennents when the laws came in. Eventually my brother in law is moving
into the apartment, which is allowed as an exception. When he moved
out, my son moved in.

James

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Earn 11% On Your Money
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/24758c6fa02a0247?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 7 2008 9:32 am
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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Immigrant work
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/1c3f60afdaf18ff5?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 7 2008 9:36 am
From: "rick++"

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== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 7 2008 10:01 am
From: oprah.chopra@gmail.com

Most people are short-sighted and can not see the long-term benefits
of savings. I am in my early 30's and here are the situations I remind
myself for reasons to save. Perhaps I am naive or paranoid so am
looking for your experiences in these situations.

1) Just defending yourself in a lawsuit that you are 'right' can cost
you 100k . If you lose, expect to be in debt 10X that much! I suppose
a counter argument is not to have too much assetts in your own name,
thus reducing the size of a judgement against you? Is that right?
2) Long-term health care in case of medical problems as you get
older . I am not sure about this one, does insurance cover this?
3) One 4-year college education at a top school for 2-kids will easily
set you back 250k
4) Emergency medical procedures are expensive, particularly if you
want the best surgeons to do them. Again does insurance cover this?
5) What if your kids develop autism or some other mental/physical
disability. Who is going to pay for their care? I am curious what do
families do in these cases, does government provide any help or
insurance again.
6) What if your parents or sibling runs into any one of the above
problems, is it your duty to bail them out?

Anything else to add/correct?

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 7 2008 11:21 am
From: "Rod Speed"

oprah.chopra@gmail.com wrote:

> Most people are short-sighted and can not see the long-term benefits of savings.

And a few are obsessed about what worked in the past and which doesnt work today too.

> I am in my early 30's and here are the situations I remind
> myself for reasons to save. Perhaps I am naive or paranoid
> so am looking for your experiences in these situations.

> 1) Just defending yourself in a lawsuit that you are 'right' can
> cost you 100k . If you lose, expect to be in debt 10X that much!

Mindless neurotic paranoia. And there are obvious ways to protect yourself
against that trivial risk that work much better than saving if you are that neurotic.

> I suppose a counter argument is not to have too much assetts in
> your own name, thus reducing the size of a judgement against you?

Or just carry insurance so its a problem for your insurance company, not you.

> Is that right?

Yep.

> 2) Long-term health care in case of medical problems as you get
> older . I am not sure about this one, does insurance cover this?

And Medicare for most too.

Depends on what you mean tho, if you're worried about nursing home
costs, that can be worth making provision for. But simple 'saving' is a
lousy way to do that, much better to end up with decent assets that
you can liquidate to pay for that if its needed, or just decide that you
wont bother with an obscenity like a nursing home and will just pull
the plug instead if it ever comes to that.

> 3) One 4-year college education at a top
> school for 2-kids will easily set you back 250k

It aint the only way to fund that.

> 4) Emergency medical procedures are expensive, particularly if you
> want the best surgeons to do them. Again does insurance cover this?

Usually not on the 'best surgeons' question, but then few emergency
medical proceedures actually need 'the best surgeons' anyway.

> 5) What if your kids develop autism or some other mental/physical
> disability. Who is going to pay for their care?

They dont necessarily need paid for 'care'

> I am curious what do families do in these cases,

Work out how to handle that.

> does government provide any help

Varys with the country.

> or insurance again.

It is possible to insure against stuff like that.

> 6) What if your parents or sibling runs into any one of
> the above problems, is it your duty to bail them out?

Corse not.

> Anything else to add/correct?

In a modern economy it makes a lot more sense to end up with
decent assets than simple 'savings', essentially because 'savings'
produce quite derisory returns with interest rates so low.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 7 2008 12:53 pm
From: me@privacy.net

"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:

>> 3) One 4-year college education at a top
>> school for 2-kids will easily set you back 250k
>
>It aint the only way to fund that.

What other way you suggest?

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Wc value PLUS-V
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/3ae51113bd408333?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 7 2008 11:11 am
From: clams_casino

Stormin Mormon wrote:

>1) I wish I had a sausage
>
>2) I wish the sausage was at the end of your nose
>
>3) I WISH YOUR KEYBOARD CAPS LOCK WAS REPAIRED
>
>
>
>
>
I wish I were an Oscar Mayer Wiener.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Some TV Converter box coupon program questions
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/10e2e2b6ac55d8cb?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 7 2008 11:12 am
From: "Bob F"

"Logan Shaw" <lshaw-usenet@austin.rr.com> wrote in message news:479e90de$0$6484
> On the other hand, I expect that as we get closer and closer
> to the switchover day, analog TVs will get so cheap as to be
> either practically or literally free for the taking. At that
> point, you might as well ditch your low-quality obsolete
> television and trade up for a high-quality obsolete television,
> since it will cost you next to nothing. Either that, or pick
> up free (or buy for cheap) about 10 or 20 obsolete televisions
> and set up a wall of televisions in your garage. If you have
> cable TV service, you can split the signal and tune each one
> to a different station, and watch them all at once, just like
> David Bowie in a certain sci-fi movie from the 1970's. :-)

And then you get to pay to dispose of the TV's in many cities of the US.

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TOPIC: Hello members!
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/75c9ee4e731929eb?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
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6 new messages in 4 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

* BEST LCD OR PLASMA 42" TV SET ON MARKET??? - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/3cb34b276c0ce20e?hl=en
* How to get your grocer to carry an item? - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/d92bd3df49819244?hl=en
* What is your water usage? - 2 messages, 2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/bd562b37685d1e02?hl=en
* Can't pay? Just walk away. - 2 messages, 2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/5a07413ffe1cd66b?hl=en

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 6 2008 8:08 pm
From: Shawn Hirn

In article <nl6kq3t9q83tud99nl96pajfr8454coibh@4ax.com>,
Dennis <dgw80@hotmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, 06 Feb 2008 05:39:41 -0500, Shawn Hirn <srhi@comcast.net>
> wrote:
>
> >My Scientific Atlanta HD DVD box from Comcast has an HDMI connector;
> >however, my HD TV does not, so I use its component video connectors.
> >Works fine for TV viewing and recording.
>
> Please explain how you record HD signal from component (not composite
> or S-video) outputs in full resolution.

I haven't tried it in full resolution. What I do is record it to my DVR,
then record it to my DVD set-top recorder or record directly to video
tape or standard definition DVD. I don't own an optical media recorder
that handles high definition media, so I have no way to try it.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: How to get your grocer to carry an item?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/d92bd3df49819244?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 6 2008 8:13 pm
From: gheston@hiwaay.net (Gary Heston)

In article <foci5t$tdb$1@aioe.org>, OhioGuy <none@none.net> wrote:
>http://www.delmonte.com/products/TomatoesList.asp?typeID=16

[ ... ]
> Have you ever been in a similar situation, where your local grocers won't
>carry something you really want? How have you been successful in obtaining
>it? Anyone have any suggestions on how I might proceed?

Contact DelMonte (http://www.delmonte.com is their web site) and ask them
who carries those products in your area, or if there's a mail-order or
special order source for them. Alternatively, check with food wholesalers
in your area and see if they can order a case of each for you.

Gary

--
Gary Heston gheston@hiwaay.net

http://www.thebreastcancersite.com/

We live in amazing times, when one person can invent both the Internet
and global warming, then get awarded a "peace prize".

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 6 2008 8:20 pm
From: gheston@hiwaay.net (Gary Heston)

In article <llujq35tsnr9ldgac2q675av03kfrbmaia@4ax.com>,
<hchickpea@hotmail.com> wrote:
[ ... ]
>3300 gallons compared to 33000 gallons is a tenfold difference with no
>pain, and the camper use of 750 gallons per month is 1/4 of that
>amount. The differences are amazing, and I've become convinced that
>the water saving devices are all they claim to be. Even though our
>water here is essentially free, I'm tickled, since the septic system
>will be that much less loaded and the costs of heating water will be
>reduced.

FYI, my usage between the two houses last month was 5800 gallons, with
no particular efforts at conservation.

How did things hold up to the storms this morning?

Gary

--
Gary Heston gheston@hiwaay.net

http://www.thebreastcancersite.com/

We live in amazing times, when one person can invent both the Internet
and global warming, then get awarded a "peace prize".

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 6 2008 8:46 pm
From: Jeff

hchickpea@hotmail.com wrote:

For just myself, about 1 CCF (750 gallons). With a friend visiting about
double. With a friend visiting that does laundry every other day about 3
CCF. Old toilets and a yard that is on auto pilot for water. I do have a
small cistern for spot outdoor watering during hot dry spells.

Jeff

> I just had a chance to do some comparisons, and I'm stunned how much
> less water we are using in our manufactured home in Alabama than we
> were in our old home in south Florida. There are a number of factors
> involved, including climate, but the variations in useage bear
> examining.
>
> If you want to compare from your own water bills, a hundred cubic feet
> of water is 750 gallons.
>
> In the old home, we had a regular big old top load clothes washer,
> washed some dishes by hand until the last few months there, had
> regular showerheads, had the old style toilets that were flushed
> whenever they were used, watered plants in the winter, had to add
> water to the pool every few months, and during the summer only,
> minimally used the roof sprinkler to extend the life of the roof (low
> flow setting, total of about 40 min of watering a day. Water pressure
> was about 60 psi.
>
> We were hooked to city water and tried to be prudent, but not
> obsessive about our water use. A low usage month was measured at
> 33000 gallons, with a couple months over a five year period close to 3
> times that figure. Looking back, I'm astounded how much water we
> used, or supposedly used, especially since we had our own irrigation
> well for watering the lawn, which isn't included in those figures.
>
> When we lived in the camper this past summer, our well could only
> produce 25 gal/day and we used less than 750 gal/mo. The toilet was a
> camper toilet, which might use a pint of water per flush, showers were
> limited to about five minutes or less, and we had no clothes washer,
> dishwasher, pool, or roof sprinkler. We did water plants, but there
> weren't as many to water.
>
> At our new home, we have a high-efficiency clothes washer, dishwasher,
> 1.6gpf toilets, spa tub, and we shower regularly using a low-flow
> showerhead (but less than in Florida where we were sweating all the
> time). Water is at about 45PSI through the regulator. We have an
> 1100 gal storage cistern, which gets filled about 3 times a month.
>
> 3300 gallons compared to 33000 gallons is a tenfold difference with no
> pain, and the camper use of 750 gallons per month is 1/4 of that
> amount. The differences are amazing, and I've become convinced that
> the water saving devices are all they claim to be. Even though our
> water here is essentially free, I'm tickled, since the septic system
> will be that much less loaded and the costs of heating water will be
> reduced.
>
>
>
>

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 6 2008 9:19 pm
From: "SpammersDie"

"Beachcomber" <invalid@notreal.none> wrote in message
news:47aa6566.3777890@news.verizon.net...
>
>>Screwed up your mortgage? Made all the wrong choices? You lucky real
>>estate investor, you STILL made the right choice! Thanks to recent
>>federal Debt Relief Legislation, by just walking away from your
>>overpriced speculative loser property and your lender, your credit can
>>recover faster than you can say "Bankruptcy? What's that?"
>
> Personally I think its wrong that Americans allow private companies
> (the credit reporting agencies) keep secret files on citizens that
> determine whether they are "credit worthy or not" and largely
> determine what they will pay in interest charges for credit cards,
> mortgages, etc.

It's called freedom of speech. Something that Americans supposedly believe
in.

Your creditors freely chose to tell the credit bureaus their experiences
(good or bad) in investing in a loan to you. That information is purely
factual and is just as much theirs to share as it is yours. It's no
different than sites like bankrate.com rating credit card companies based on
experiences shared with it by its readers. Only difference is that bankrate
is far less regulated.

If you don't like it, you can try to negotiate a gag clause into your next
credit contract - though you probably don't have chance in hell of getting
anyone to agree to it.

Similarly, the credit bureaus don't "determine" anything. Nobody forces a
prospective lender to buy a FICO score or assign any importance to it in
deciding whether to invest their money in a loan to you. If a lender does
so, it's by that lenders choice. It's their money that they're investing.
Yes, you're unhappy that you have less than an iron grip on what information
the guy on the other side of the negotiating table gets to see - well who
isn't, but life doesn't work that way.

> What if you walked into a grocery store that charged high or low
> prices for the same item

Which many do, depending on whether you're targeted for coupons, whether
you're buying additional units of the same item on the same shopping trip
and whether you're willing to barter your privacy as part of the trade via
those so-called "loyalty" cards.

> The credit issuing companies are perfectly right in denying each
> applicant credit or not, but if credit is granted... Everyone should
> pay whatever market rate is in effect at the time.

"Market rate" is inherently different for different debtors just as with any
other investment. Just as the "market value" for an equivalent stock of one
company varies from that of another based on peoples perception of how much
growth potential the company has and how competent its management is, among
other factors.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 6 2008 11:02 pm
From: Scott in SoCal

On Thu, 07 Feb 2008 02:11:27 GMT, invalid@notreal.none (Beachcomber)
wrote:

>
>>Screwed up your mortgage? Made all the wrong choices? You lucky real
>>estate investor, you STILL made the right choice! Thanks to recent
>>federal Debt Relief Legislation, by just walking away from your
>>overpriced speculative loser property and your lender, your credit can
>>recover faster than you can say "Bankruptcy? What's that?"
>
>Personally I think its wrong that Americans allow private companies
>(the credit reporting agencies) keep secret files on citizens that
>determine whether they are "credit worthy or not" and largely
>determine what they will pay in interest charges for credit cards,
>mortgages, etc.

BTW, I'd like to borrow your life's savings. I promise I'll pay it
back with 21.9% interest. As, as you say, it would be "wrong" for you
to check my credit and get any idea of how likely I will be to pay you
back. Will you loan me every penny you have? Pretty please?

>What if you walked into a grocery store that charged high or low
>prices for the same item dependant upon the the race or gender of the
>person making the purchase? Nobody would put up with that...

Bad analogy.

There is no risk involved in selling groceries. Loaning someone
hundreds of thousands of dollars, however, has a very significant risk
associated with it. If you don't believe me, just loan me your life's
savings.

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