Frugal Living: Jan 3, 2008

Thursday, January 3, 2008

25 new messages in 9 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: buy cheap shoes (www.shoes-ec.com)
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/7b939106f67d7303?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Jan 3 2008 7:39 am
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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Antidepressants and Violence
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/e016c0d7e96aba32?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 6 ==
Date: Thurs, Jan 3 2008 7:57 am
From: Goomba38

Bert Hyman wrote:
> derjda@hotmail.com (AllEmailDeletedImmediately) wrote in
> news:XC6fj.2401$Je6.1836@trnddc01:
>
>> http://articles.mercola.com
>
> Is an osteopath really the best person to go to for this sort of
> information?
>
Osteopaths are excellent doctors and surgeons.
Perhaps you're thinking of chiropractors or something....?

== 2 of 6 ==
Date: Thurs, Jan 3 2008 8:20 am
From: George Grapman

Goomba38 wrote:
> Bert Hyman wrote:
>> derjda@hotmail.com (AllEmailDeletedImmediately) wrote in
>> news:XC6fj.2401$Je6.1836@trnddc01:
>>> http://articles.mercola.com
>>
>> Is an osteopath really the best person to go to for this sort of
>> information?
> Osteopaths are excellent doctors and surgeons.
> Perhaps you're thinking of chiropractors or something....?

Chiropractors are also excellent providers. The first time I saw mine
instead of taking x-rays he listened to me . He told me that because I
spend so much time on the phone I should use a headset. That went a long
way to alleviating some neck pain. I also had some back problems. Our
sessions have gone from every three weeks,to for weeks,to six weeks and
now every two months. Near the end of that period I might feel mild
discomfort but that is gone after a 15 minute session.

== 3 of 6 ==
Date: Thurs, Jan 3 2008 8:34 am
From: George

It can be. Some MDs have simply become an agent of the drug companies.
To be fair a lot of people demand a magical quick fix pill that will fix
everything. D.O.s are legitimate licensed doctors and have more of a
whole body approach and try to identify and fix the problem and not just
write a script.

== 4 of 6 ==
Date: Thurs, Jan 3 2008 8:54 am
From: George Grapman

George wrote:
> Bert Hyman wrote:
>> derjda@hotmail.com (AllEmailDeletedImmediately) wrote in
>> news:XC6fj.2401$Je6.1836@trnddc01:
>>> http://articles.mercola.com
>>
>> Is an osteopath really the best person to go to for this sort of
>> information?
>
> It can be. Some MDs have simply become an agent of the drug companies.
> To be fair a lot of people demand a magical quick fix pill that will fix
> everything. D.O.s are legitimate licensed doctors and have more of a
> whole body approach and try to identify and fix the problem and not just
> write a script.

One of the prescription drug problems is that so many of them run ads
aimed at the general public rather than doctors. People see an ad for a
drug that promises to remedy (insert name of problem) and people with
that problem insist that their doctor write a scrip for that drug.

== 5 of 6 ==
Date: Thurs, Jan 3 2008 10:04 am
From: "AllEmailDeletedImmediately"

"George" <george@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:Z5idnbapfbE5k-DanZ2dnUVZ_rWdnZ2d@comcast.com...
> Bert Hyman wrote:
>> derjda@hotmail.com (AllEmailDeletedImmediately) wrote in
>> news:XC6fj.2401$Je6.1836@trnddc01:
>>> http://articles.mercola.com
>>
>> Is an osteopath really the best person to go to for this sort of
>> information?
>
> It can be. Some MDs have simply become an agent of the drug companies. To
> be fair a lot of people demand a magical quick fix pill that will fix
> everything. D.O.s are legitimate licensed doctors and have more of a whole
> body approach and try to identify and fix the problem and not just write a
> script.

but not all. many/most? are just like mds. you have to find one who is
different.

== 6 of 6 ==
Date: Thurs, Jan 3 2008 10:16 am
From:

"AllEmailDeletedImmediately" <derjda@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:As9fj.4435$nN5.1741@trndny04...
>
> "George" <george@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
> news:Z5idnbapfbE5k-DanZ2dnUVZ_rWdnZ2d@comcast.com...
> > Bert Hyman wrote:
> >> derjda@hotmail.com (AllEmailDeletedImmediately) wrote in
> >> news:XC6fj.2401$Je6.1836@trnddc01:
> >>> http://articles.mercola.com
> >>
> >> Is an osteopath really the best person to go to for this sort of
> >> information?
> >
> > It can be. Some MDs have simply become an agent of the drug companies. To
> > be fair a lot of people demand a magical quick fix pill that will fix
> > everything. D.O.s are legitimate licensed doctors and have more of a whole
> > body approach and try to identify and fix the problem and not just write a
> > script.
>
> but not all. many/most? are just like mds. you have to find one who is
> different.

Mercola is different. His advice on cow's milk is spot on and
rarely heard in the U.S. (thanks "Milk Advisory Board"):

http://www.mercola.com/article/milk/no_milk.htm

==============================================================================
TOPIC: How do you cut your utility cost?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/0f775dcaf5b9b909?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Thurs, Jan 3 2008 7:58 am
From: Joe

On Jan 2, 9:12 am, <h> wrote:
> "Lou" <loup...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:6b4cf303-14f6-4130-b256-ed6c060ebd37@e6g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>
> > Can anyone tell me how they actually cut thier utility bills?
> > For instance, I have a shut off valve attatched to my shower
> > head so when it's time to soap up, I don't waste water down the
> > drain. Any other ideas?
> > Lou
>
> I keep my house at 58 degrees in the winter and I don't have AC just a fan
> in the summer.

how much can one expect to save by cutting their thermostat setting by
10 degrees?

== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Thurs, Jan 3 2008 7:58 am
From: Jeff

Evelyn C. Leeper wrote:
> Leroy wrote:
>> Rod Speed wrote:
>>> Evelyn C. Leeper <eleeper@optonline.net> wrote:
>>>> It is especially important in the summer to avoid turning on more
>>>> lights and heavy motors, since they will heat up the house and make
>>>> the A/C work harder.
>>>
>>> Nope, those make a trivial difference with A/C.
>>
>> Bullshite. A few hundred watts of heat is quite noticable. I'm in
>> a 34 foot RV and 400 watts of electric heat is more than enough
>> to keep the interior 30 degrees F warmer than the exterior.
>>
>> In the summer, any standby energy consumed results in heat
>> which must be removed by AC using yet more energy.
>
> To back up Leroy (who was backing me up), in the summertime I notice a
> definite difference in temperature in our family room when I have the
> six ceiling lights turned on for any significant time. (In the winter,
> one doesn't mind as much, but I'm sure the effect is still there.)

Let's take 100 watts of extra power. That could be just one incandescent
bulb. Run that all day and you have over 8000 BTU's That would be a
small to mid size room AC running for one hour. Obviously that's a good
reason to decrease heating load by using bulbs that consume less power,
like CFLs.

But even CFLs use power. Leave on a 14W CFL and you'll use almost
11kWhrs a month. THats over a dollar at 10 cents/kWhr and just for one
bulb. So turning off even small electrical appliances adds up. And it
would take a small AC five hours to remove the thirty six thousand BTUs.

We'll leave phantom watts for another discussion. But many seldom
used appliances consume much more power off and idling than on. When you
attack energy consumption you target the biggest users first, then move
down the ladder.

None of this means you should be anal about consumption, but
everything has some cost that adds up over time. Just like turning off a
light in a room you aren't in makes sense, sometimes it's worth leaving
a light on, but it still has a cost.

Jeff
>

== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Thurs, Jan 3 2008 11:10 am
From: "Rod Speed"

Joe <joe5345@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jan 2, 9:12 am, <h> wrote:
>> "Lou" <loup...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:6b4cf303-14f6-4130-b256-ed6c060ebd37@e6g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>> Can anyone tell me how they actually cut thier utility bills?
>>> For instance, I have a shut off valve attatched to my shower
>>> head so when it's time to soap up, I don't waste water down the
>>> drain. Any other ideas?
>>> Lou
>>
>> I keep my house at 58 degrees in the winter and I don't have AC just
>> a fan in the summer.
>
> how much can one expect to save by cutting their thermostat setting by
> 10 degrees?

Varys with how well the house is insulated.

If the insulation is perfect, it wont have any effect.

== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Thurs, Jan 3 2008 11:12 am
From: "Rod Speed"

Evelyn C. Leeper <eleeper@optonline.net> wrote:
> Rod Speed wrote:
>> Leroy <leroy@ addy.invalid> wrote
>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>>> Evelyn C. Leeper <eleeper@optonline.net> wrote
>>>>> Jeff wrote:
>>>>>> Lou wrote
>>
>>>>>>> Can anyone tell me how they actually cut thier utility bills?
>>
>>>>>> Most of my utility bill is heating and AC. It is the same for
>>>>>> most people.
>>
>>>>>> Number one method to cut heating costs is to seal air leaks and
>>>>>> add insulation where it is lacking. Sealing air leaks has a fast
>>>>>> payback, adding insulation may take a couple years.
>>
>>>> Changed all lights to CFL and shut them off all but a couple.
>>
>>>>> It is especially important in the summer to avoid turning on more
>>>>> lights and heavy motors, since they will heat up the house and
>>>>> make the A/C work harder.
>>
>>>> Nope, those make a trivial difference with A/C.
>>
>>> Bullshite.
>>
>> Your sig is supposed to have a -- in front of it.
>>
>>> A few hundred watts of heat is quite noticable.
>>
>> Utterly bogus numbers when talking about CFLs.
>>
>>> I'm in a 34 foot RV
>>
>> And the OP aint.
>>
>>> and 400 watts of electric heat is more than enough to keep the
>>> interior 30 degrees F warmer than the exterior.
>>
>> And even someone as stupid as you should be able to grasp that no one
>> in a 34 foot RV would be likely to have 400W of CFLs on very often
>> at all.
>>> In the summer, any standby energy consumed results in heat which
>>> must be removed by AC using yet more energy.
>>
>> Duh. Pity that with a normal A/C house, the power used for
>> the A/C is gunna be a hell of a lot more than a few extra CFLs.
>>
>>
>
> Let me clarify--the lights I was referring to were incandescent
> lights. (The fixtures won't take CFLs.)

Then your original proclaimation doesnt apply to everyone else, and
you still wont see a lot of effect unless you happen to 'live' in a trailer etc.

== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Thurs, Jan 3 2008 11:13 am
From: "Rod Speed"

Evelyn C. Leeper <eleeper@optonline.net> wrote:
> Leroy wrote:
>> Rod Speed wrote:
>>> Evelyn C. Leeper <eleeper@optonline.net> wrote:
>>>> It is especially important in the summer to avoid turning on more
>>>> lights and heavy motors, since they will heat up the house and make
>>>> the A/C work harder.
>>>
>>> Nope, those make a trivial difference with A/C.
>>
>> Bullshite. A few hundred watts of heat is quite noticable. I'm in
>> a 34 foot RV and 400 watts of electric heat is more than enough
>> to keep the interior 30 degrees F warmer than the exterior.
>>
>> In the summer, any standby energy consumed results in heat
>> which must be removed by AC using yet more energy.
>
> To back up Leroy (who was backing me up), in the summertime I notice a
> definite difference in temperature in our family room when I have the
> six ceiling lights turned on for any significant time. (In the
> winter, one doesn't mind as much, but I'm sure the effect is still
> there.)

It just feels different. Its not necessarily affecting the power used for the A/C that much,
particularly when you have the temp set on the high side to minimise your A/C costs.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Ron Paul Excluded from Fox Debate!!!!
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/3918ae36206dbc90?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 8 ==
Date: Thurs, Jan 3 2008 8:52 am
From: Elmo

Doug Miller wrote:
> In article <CJ2fj.8315$4m5.443@trnddc02>, Elmo_409@_hotmail.whatever wrote:
>> Doug Miller said (on or about) 01/02/2008 16:31:
>>> In article <flgpun$np6$1@f04n12.cac.psu.edu>, Elmo
>> <ElmoHateSpam@noSpam4U.org> wrote:
>>>> Doug Miller wrote:
>>>>> In article <flgjbh$1702$1@f04n12.cac.psu.edu>, Elmo
>>>> <ElmoHateSpam@noSpam4U.org> wrote:
>>>>>> Doug Miller wrote:
>>>>>>> In article <5u1t9jF1g9danU1@mid.individual.net>, "Bill"
>>>>>> <billnomailnospamx@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Seems TV is deciding which candidates we see on the tube...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ron Paul Excluded from Fox Debate...
>>>>>>> So what? They have to draw the line somewhere -- they can't include
>>>> everybody.
>>>>>>> And right now, Ron Paul is polling behind Undecided.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> And ahead of several of the people they included.
>>>>> Which ones would those be?
>>>>>
>>>>>> He also has raised more money than several of the people they included.
>>>>> Which ones would those be?
>>>>>
>>>>>> (Or so I was told by the fervant Ron Paul supporter who is a few doors
>> down
>>>>>> from here.)
>>>>> Not exactly an unbiased source, that.
>>>>>
>>>> I have found him to be reliable in most things political -- even if he is a
>> Ron
>>>> Paul supporting Libertarian nutcase. The kind that stands on street corners
>>>> to get enough signatures so he can appear on the ballot. In 2004 he got about
>>>> 15% of the vote running against the "unopposed" Republican that holds the
>>>> Congressional seat.
>>>>
>>> OK, fine -- but you didn't answer my questions. Which of the invited
>>> candidates are trailing Ron Paul in the polls, or in fundraising?
>>>
>> I didn't answer it because personally I don't care enough to find out.
>
> You cared enough to complain that he's polling ahead of other candidates who
> were invited -- but you don't care enough to find out which ones?
>
>> But I did see a MSM story that said RP had raised 19M in the 3rd
>> quarter which was more than any other candidate. And that he was
>> polling 4th in Iowa which puts him ahead of someone.
>
> The only candidates that puts him ahead of are the ones who haven't been
> campaigning in Iowa -- Giuliani's written Iowa off completely, isn't even
> trying there.
>
My bad -- tied for 4th with Thompson (DesMoines Register)

--
"...the 12-step group meeting in the basement is usually a more
authentic use of the building than the congregation meeting upstairs."
The Slacktivist

== 2 of 8 ==
Date: Thurs, Jan 3 2008 9:15 am
From: spambait@milmac.com (Doug Miller)

In article <flj3t7$1jr4$2@f04n12.cac.psu.edu>, Elmo <ElmoHateSpam@noSpam4U.org> wrote:
>Doug Miller wrote:
>> In article <CJ2fj.8315$4m5.443@trnddc02>, Elmo_409@_hotmail.whatever wrote:
>>> Doug Miller said (on or about) 01/02/2008 16:31:
>>>> In article <flgpun$np6$1@f04n12.cac.psu.edu>, Elmo
>>> <ElmoHateSpam@noSpam4U.org> wrote:
>>>>> Doug Miller wrote:
>>>>>> In article <flgjbh$1702$1@f04n12.cac.psu.edu>, Elmo
>>>>> <ElmoHateSpam@noSpam4U.org> wrote:
>>>>>>> Doug Miller wrote:
>>>>>>>> In article <5u1t9jF1g9danU1@mid.individual.net>, "Bill"
>>>>>>> <billnomailnospamx@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Seems TV is deciding which candidates we see on the tube...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ron Paul Excluded from Fox Debate...
>>>>>>>> So what? They have to draw the line somewhere -- they can't include
>>>>> everybody.
>>>>>>>> And right now, Ron Paul is polling behind Undecided.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And ahead of several of the people they included.
>>>>>> Which ones would those be?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> He also has raised more money than several of the people they included.
>>>>>> Which ones would those be?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (Or so I was told by the fervant Ron Paul supporter who is a few doors
>>> down
>>>>>>> from here.)
>>>>>> Not exactly an unbiased source, that.
>>>>>>
>>>>> I have found him to be reliable in most things political -- even if he is
> a
>>> Ron
>>>>> Paul supporting Libertarian nutcase. The kind that stands on street
> corners
>>>>> to get enough signatures so he can appear on the ballot. In 2004 he got
> about
>>>>> 15% of the vote running against the "unopposed" Republican that holds the
>>>>> Congressional seat.
>>>>>
>>>> OK, fine -- but you didn't answer my questions. Which of the invited
>>>> candidates are trailing Ron Paul in the polls, or in fundraising?
>>>>
>>> I didn't answer it because personally I don't care enough to find out.
>>
>> You cared enough to complain that he's polling ahead of other candidates who
>> were invited -- but you don't care enough to find out which ones?
>>
>>> But I did see a MSM story that said RP had raised 19M in the 3rd
>>> quarter which was more than any other candidate. And that he was
>>> polling 4th in Iowa which puts him ahead of someone.
>>
>> The only candidates that puts him ahead of are the ones who haven't been
>> campaigning in Iowa -- Giuliani's written Iowa off completely, isn't even
>> trying there.
>>
>My bad -- tied for 4th with Thompson (DesMoines Register)
>
You still haven't said which of the invited candidates he's polling ahead of.
Are you ready to retract that claim yet?

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

== 3 of 8 ==
Date: Thurs, Jan 3 2008 9:20 am
From: Elmo

Doug Miller wrote:
> In article <flj3t7$1jr4$2@f04n12.cac.psu.edu>, Elmo <ElmoHateSpam@noSpam4U.org> wrote:
>> Doug Miller wrote:
>>> In article <CJ2fj.8315$4m5.443@trnddc02>, Elmo_409@_hotmail.whatever wrote:
>>>> Doug Miller said (on or about) 01/02/2008 16:31:
>>>>> In article <flgpun$np6$1@f04n12.cac.psu.edu>, Elmo
>>>> <ElmoHateSpam@noSpam4U.org> wrote:
>>>>>> Doug Miller wrote:
>>>>>>> In article <flgjbh$1702$1@f04n12.cac.psu.edu>, Elmo
>>>>>> <ElmoHateSpam@noSpam4U.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Doug Miller wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In article <5u1t9jF1g9danU1@mid.individual.net>, "Bill"
>>>>>>>> <billnomailnospamx@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Seems TV is deciding which candidates we see on the tube...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Ron Paul Excluded from Fox Debate...
>>>>>>>>> So what? They have to draw the line somewhere -- they can't include
>>>>>> everybody.
>>>>>>>>> And right now, Ron Paul is polling behind Undecided.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And ahead of several of the people they included.
>>>>>>> Which ones would those be?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> He also has raised more money than several of the people they included.
>>>>>>> Which ones would those be?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> (Or so I was told by the fervant Ron Paul supporter who is a few doors
>>>> down
>>>>>>>> from here.)
>>>>>>> Not exactly an unbiased source, that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have found him to be reliable in most things political -- even if he is
>> a
>>>> Ron
>>>>>> Paul supporting Libertarian nutcase. The kind that stands on street
>> corners
>>>>>> to get enough signatures so he can appear on the ballot. In 2004 he got
>> about
>>>>>> 15% of the vote running against the "unopposed" Republican that holds the
>>>>>> Congressional seat.
>>>>>>
>>>>> OK, fine -- but you didn't answer my questions. Which of the invited
>>>>> candidates are trailing Ron Paul in the polls, or in fundraising?
>>>>>
>>>> I didn't answer it because personally I don't care enough to find out.
>>> You cared enough to complain that he's polling ahead of other candidates who
>>> were invited -- but you don't care enough to find out which ones?
>>>
>>>> But I did see a MSM story that said RP had raised 19M in the 3rd
>>>> quarter which was more than any other candidate. And that he was
>>>> polling 4th in Iowa which puts him ahead of someone.
>>> The only candidates that puts him ahead of are the ones who haven't been
>>> campaigning in Iowa -- Giuliani's written Iowa off completely, isn't even
>>> trying there.
>>>
>> My bad -- tied for 4th with Thompson (DesMoines Register)
>>
> You still haven't said which of the invited candidates he's polling ahead of.
> Are you ready to retract that claim yet?
>
I don't know who the invited candidates are, I repeated what I had heard from a reliable source.
If it suits you to call that a retraction, then be pleased with yourself.

== 4 of 8 ==
Date: Thurs, Jan 3 2008 9:28 am
From: "Bill"

Note I visited my brother over Christmas. He had not heard of Ron Paul
because they have been keeping him off of TV. I told him of Ron Paul's
views. He now likes Ron Paul. (This is my brother's decision to make.)

So let the people hear what the man has to say!

Ron Paul Leads in Polls of People Who Have Heard Him Speak...
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig8/haman1.html

== 5 of 8 ==
Date: Thurs, Jan 3 2008 10:46 am
From: Elmo

Bill wrote:
> Note I visited my brother over Christmas. He had not heard of Ron Paul
> because they have been keeping him off of TV. I told him of Ron Paul's
> views. He now likes Ron Paul. (This is my brother's decision to make.)
>
> So let the people hear what the man has to say!
>
> Ron Paul Leads in Polls of People Who Have Heard Him Speak...
> http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig8/haman1.html
>
>

And that is the main point. When views from outside the box are not hidden, they get a fair evaluation. Most will be rejected in the long run. If the views are threatening to the "in" group they have to go into attack mode which usually makes the attacker look bad. It's easier and less expensive to simply repress dissent.
--
The real USA PATRIOT Act was passed in 1791.
It's called the Bill of Rights.

== 6 of 8 ==
Date: Thurs, Jan 3 2008 11:00 am
From: spambait@milmac.com (Doug Miller)

In article <flj5hb$nus$1@f04n12.cac.psu.edu>, Elmo <ElmoHateSpam@noSpam4U.org> wrote:
>Doug Miller wrote:

>> You still haven't said which of the invited candidates he's polling ahead of.
>> Are you ready to retract that claim yet?
>>
>I don't know who the invited candidates are, I repeated what I had heard from a
> reliable source.
>If it suits you to call that a retraction, then be pleased with yourself.

I'll be happy to regard that as an acknowledgement that you have no idea
whether it's true or not.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

== 7 of 8 ==
Date: Thurs, Jan 3 2008 11:01 am
From: spambait@milmac.com (Doug Miller)

In article <5u4ka4F1gc6r6U1@mid.individual.net>, "Bill" <billnomailnospamx@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Ron Paul Leads in Polls of People Who Have Heard Him Speak...

That's not a large enough group to make the polls statistically valid... <g>

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

== 8 of 8 ==
Date: Thurs, Jan 3 2008 11:05 am
From: spambait@milmac.com (Doug Miller)

In article <fljai8$11n8$1@f04n12.cac.psu.edu>, Elmo <ElmoHateSpam@noSpam4U.org> wrote:

>And that is the main point. When views from outside the box are not hidden,
> they get a fair evaluation. Most will be rejected in the long run. If the
> views are threatening to the "in" group they have to go into attack mode which
> usually makes the attacker look bad. It's easier and less expensive to simply
> repress dissent.

Oh, fer cryin' out loud. Just because the guy isn't getting any traction in
the polls doesn't mean he's being "repressed". The simpler -- and likely more
accurate -- explanation is that people *are* hearing his views, and don't like
them.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Win Win Referrals
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/2e8a467d1740963d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Jan 3 2008 9:44 am
From: Cheapo Groovo

http://cheapogroovo.vox.com/library/post/win-win-referrals.html

==============================================================================
TOPIC: fwiw: rigged election exposed via testimony
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/9e18d1a3258a03bf?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Jan 3 2008 10:02 am
From: "AllEmailDeletedImmediately"

http://www.fliggo.com/video/sk0SiTCu

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Over Half Of All Cancers Can Be Prevented By Daily Lifestyle Choices
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/766cc36822d65069?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Jan 3 2008 10:30 am
From: Braslavsky Gustavo

Nearly half of all Americans make New Year's resolutions, most of them
health-related. Stop smoking. Start exercising. Lose weight. Eat
better. Unfortunately, only 10 to 15 percent of these resolutions are
ever kept. Even more unfortunate is that these are exactly the things
that can help everyone prevent cancer.

John C. Ruckdeschel, M.D., a Medical Advisory Board member for the
Prevent Cancer Foundation and the president and CEO of the Karmanos
Cancer Institute in Detroit, is adamant about smoking's negative
health effects. "The major thing to avoid cancer is to stop smoking,"
he says. "If there's anything we have clear-cut, indisputable evidence
for, it's that."

What's more is that tobacco's harm can't be counter-balanced by doing
everything else right. "Eating broccoli all the time is not going to
reverse what smoking does," he says. "You have to cut it out of your
life."

Ruckdeshel explains that cancer itself is not some outside agent that
attacks the body. It is a harmful change within the body, on the
cellular level, that is caused by our genetic makeup combined with
what we either do or don't do every day to cause these cellular
changes to occur. Mutated cells begin replicating and taking over
precious internal real estate, forcing out the healthy cells.

Contrary to popular belief, most cancerous tendencies are not
determined by heredity, but are instead shifted into gear by what we
do on a daily basis - what we eat and drink, if we exercise, and a
host of other lifestyle choices. It is estimated that more than half
of all cancers could be prevented if we just took better care of
ourselves.

In addition to smoking, one dangerous pitfall is over-consuming foods
that are high in calories but low in nutrition, forcing the body to
struggle while processing large amounts of calories with no additional
physical activity.

"The overweight and obesity problems we're seeing in our population
are outgrowths of the sedentary lifestyle," says David Schottenfeld,
M.D., M.Sc., also a member of the Prevent Cancer Foundation's Medical
Advisory Board, as well as a professor of epidemiology and internal
medicine at the University of Michigan's School of Public Health. "We
need to recognize that as we look at the body weight issue, it causes
or influences one-quarter to one-third of the total cancer incidence."

With over-processed foods and sugary drinks, not only does the body
not get the vitamins it needs, it's left with thousands of extra
calories to try to dispose of. But without an extra amount of physical
activity to burn those calories off, they turn instead to fat. And
carrying extra pounds, especially around the waist, also puts someone
at a higher risk for cancer.

To do your part to prevent cancer, set a realistic goal for 2008, such
as:

--Stop smoking - Even if you don't succeed on the first - or tenth -
try, you owe it to yourself and those who love you to keep on trying.
And don't be afraid to ask for help. Studies show addiction to
nicotine is stronger than that of cocaine.

--Be more active - If you've got an exercise plan, great! Keep it
going and vary your routine to stay interested. But if you haven't
seen your running shoes since high school, it's time to get your feet
in gear. Start small - an afternoon stroll around the block, jogging a
minute or two every so often while walking your dog - and build from
there.

--Lose weight - Exercising will certainly help, but make it easier for
your body to drop excess pounds by not giving it what it doesn't need.
Read food labels and watch portion size. Keep saturated fats and
sugars to a minimum.

--Eat better - It may have seemed funny to hide your veggies under
your plate when you were a kid, but now, your body's not laughing when
you don't get the right nutrition. Make it a point to include fresh
produce in your diet - put an apple in your lunch bag, snack on some
berries during the day, sauté some spinach for dinner. It all adds up
and your body will thank you for it.

--See your doctor - Doing all the above steps will put you on the
right track, but you still need to see your health professional to be
screened for cancer. That means a mammogram every year for women 40
and over, a colonoscopy for men and women every 10 years starting at
age 50, a Pap test for women every year beginning at 21, and regular
skin checks and physical exams to be sure you're in tip-top shape.

About Prevent Cancer Foundation

The Prevent Cancer Foundation (formerly the Cancer Research and
Prevention Foundation) was started in 1985 when Founder and President
Carolyn Aldigé first understood the power of prevention to defeat
cancer - and recognized that too few of the country's resources were
used to promote cancer prevention research or education. Today, it is
one of the nation's leading health organizations and has catapulted
cancer prevention to prominence.

Since its inception the Foundation has provided more than $97 million
in support of cancer prevention and early detection research and
education programs. The Foundation's peer-reviewed grants have been
awarded to more than 300 scientists from more than 150 of the leading
academic medical centers nationwide. This research has been pivotal in
developing a body of knowledge that is the basis for important cancer
prevention and early detection strategies. For more information,
please visit http://www.preventcancer.org.
http://diet-news-tips.blogspot.com/

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http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/e70b2af408d4e90c?hl=en
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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Let's take down the MI5 nut poster
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/488c35f9f82f75e6?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Jan 3 2008 11:21 am
From: "Rod Speed"

AllEmailDeletedImmediately <derjda@hotmail.com> wrote:
> "Logan Shaw" <lshaw-usenet@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:477c5d89$0$28871$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>> George wrote:
>>> imascot wrote:
>>
>>>> I have complained to Altopia.com, the news server this individual
>>>> is using. Please join me and copy just one of his messages,
>>>> showing full headers, to abuse@altopia.com What I wrote was:
>>
>>> Here is the nuts website:
>>>
>>>

http://www.five.org.uk/
>>>
>>> He actually uses a CAPTCHA on his response form because he knows how
>>> annoying SPAM can be...
>>
>> Well, I'm not a trained psychologist, and even a trained psychologist
>> couldn't diagnosed someone based on a web site they created, but
>> nevertheless I'm fairly sure the guy is a paranoid schizophrenic.
>> Which is kind of sad, really, but what can you do? The guy is
>> already aware of the possibility and has discounted it even though
>> it's most likely the truth.

> i have a brother who is a diagnosed paranoid schizophrenic. i think the schizophrenic part requires that you hear
> voices and speak to imaginary people.

You're wrong, not all of them get that effect.

Some of them just decide that they are Napoleon etc.

> my brother has several of these "friends", and i think the reason he won't take his meds is because they go away when
> he does and he misses them.

The technical term for that is 'pathetically inadequate sample'

>> Getting back on a practical level, his Usenet abuse is not likely to
>> be stopped by conventional means. To him (within his delusion), it's
>> probably critically important to get the word out on Usenet, so his
>> motivation is stronger than that of a regular spammer, and he appears
>> to be relatively smart as well.

> yeah. all usenet providers will have to block him before his postings get out.

Nope, just the ones he posts using.

> it's a pita, but who's he really hurting?

You can make the same claim about graffiti and spam.

==============================================================================

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Google Groups: http://groups.google.com?hl=en

24 new messages in 16 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
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http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/fa06f65b9ae82a3f?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Jan 3 2008 12:34 am
From: 0140ReD@gmail.com

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==============================================================================
TOPIC: 3 Key Features to Look for When Buying A Discount GPS System
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/277f07abf9d28fe9?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Jan 3 2008 1:26 am
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== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Jan 3 2008 2:24 am
From: Elmo

Doug Miller said (on or about) 01/02/2008 16:31:
> In article <flgpun$np6$1@f04n12.cac.psu.edu>, Elmo <ElmoHateSpam@noSpam4U.org> wrote:
>> Doug Miller wrote:
>>> In article <flgjbh$1702$1@f04n12.cac.psu.edu>, Elmo
>> <ElmoHateSpam@noSpam4U.org> wrote:
>>>> Doug Miller wrote:
>>>>> In article <5u1t9jF1g9danU1@mid.individual.net>, "Bill"
>>>> <billnomailnospamx@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Seems TV is deciding which candidates we see on the tube...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ron Paul Excluded from Fox Debate...
>>>>> So what? They have to draw the line somewhere -- they can't include
>> everybody.
>>>>> And right now, Ron Paul is polling behind Undecided.
>>>>>
>>>> And ahead of several of the people they included.
>>> Which ones would those be?
>>>
>>>> He also has raised more money than several of the people they included.
>>> Which ones would those be?
>>>
>>>> (Or so I was told by the fervant Ron Paul supporter who is a few doors down
>>>> from here.)
>>> Not exactly an unbiased source, that.
>>>
>> I have found him to be reliable in most things political -- even if he is a Ron
>> Paul supporting Libertarian nutcase. The kind that stands on street corners
>> to get enough signatures so he can appear on the ballot. In 2004 he got about
>> 15% of the vote running against the "unopposed" Republican that holds the
>> Congressional seat.
>>
> OK, fine -- but you didn't answer my questions. Which of the invited
> candidates are trailing Ron Paul in the polls, or in fundraising?
>
I didn't answer it because personally I don't care enough to find out.
But I did see a MSM story that said RP had raised 19M in the 3rd
quarter which was more than any other candidate. And that he was
polling 4th in Iowa which puts him ahead of someone.

--
In Isaiah Berlin's typology of leaders, Bush isn't merely
a hedgehog who knows one thing rather than many things.
He's a delusional hedgehog who knows one thing that isn't so.

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Jan 3 2008 3:55 am
From: talk2me@not.com

On Wed, 2 Jan 2008 08:43:23 -0800, "Bill"
<billnomailnospamx@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Seems TV is showing more boobs lately.

This is great news. I love boobs, and women do too.

One thing you'll never hear Dolly Parton say is "I got to get this off
my chest".

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Jan 3 2008 7:36 am
From: spambait@milmac.com (Doug Miller)

In article <CJ2fj.8315$4m5.443@trnddc02>, Elmo_409@_hotmail.whatever wrote:
>Doug Miller said (on or about) 01/02/2008 16:31:
>> In article <flgpun$np6$1@f04n12.cac.psu.edu>, Elmo
> <ElmoHateSpam@noSpam4U.org> wrote:
>>> Doug Miller wrote:
>>>> In article <flgjbh$1702$1@f04n12.cac.psu.edu>, Elmo
>>> <ElmoHateSpam@noSpam4U.org> wrote:
>>>>> Doug Miller wrote:
>>>>>> In article <5u1t9jF1g9danU1@mid.individual.net>, "Bill"
>>>>> <billnomailnospamx@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Seems TV is deciding which candidates we see on the tube...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ron Paul Excluded from Fox Debate...
>>>>>> So what? They have to draw the line somewhere -- they can't include
>>> everybody.
>>>>>> And right now, Ron Paul is polling behind Undecided.
>>>>>>
>>>>> And ahead of several of the people they included.
>>>> Which ones would those be?
>>>>
>>>>> He also has raised more money than several of the people they included.
>>>> Which ones would those be?
>>>>
>>>>> (Or so I was told by the fervant Ron Paul supporter who is a few doors
> down
>>>>> from here.)
>>>> Not exactly an unbiased source, that.
>>>>
>>> I have found him to be reliable in most things political -- even if he is a
> Ron
>>> Paul supporting Libertarian nutcase. The kind that stands on street corners
>>> to get enough signatures so he can appear on the ballot. In 2004 he got about
>>> 15% of the vote running against the "unopposed" Republican that holds the
>>> Congressional seat.
>>>
>> OK, fine -- but you didn't answer my questions. Which of the invited
>> candidates are trailing Ron Paul in the polls, or in fundraising?
>>
>I didn't answer it because personally I don't care enough to find out.

You cared enough to complain that he's polling ahead of other candidates who
were invited -- but you don't care enough to find out which ones?

>But I did see a MSM story that said RP had raised 19M in the 3rd
>quarter which was more than any other candidate. And that he was
>polling 4th in Iowa which puts him ahead of someone.

The only candidates that puts him ahead of are the ones who haven't been
campaigning in Iowa -- Giuliani's written Iowa off completely, isn't even
trying there.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Jan 3 2008 6:00 am
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"Logan Shaw" <lshaw-usenet@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
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> AllEmailDeletedImmediately wrote:
>> i need to get some button batteries. wikipedia has me a bit confused:
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>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_battery_sizes
>>
>> i need one from the sr44 row. the naming notes about SR/LR/AG battery
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>> SR# / LR# / AG# Button Cells: IEC SR series batteries are silver oxide
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>> beyond the AG# designation, many places use these three terms
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>> The only difference is that the SR series typically have 50% greater
>> capacity than the LR series. In low-drain
>> devices like watches (without lights) this isn't very important, but in
>> high-drain devices like blinkies, key chain
>> flashlights, or laser pointers the LR type is preferred.
>>
>> Typically SR and LR will be the same price unless one buys in wholesale
>> volume so there is no reason not to get
>> the SR version. Often the free 'demo' batteries that come with a device
>> are the LR version.
>>
>>
>> they're saying that SR batteries will last longer, right?
>>
>>
>> why is the LR type preferred if the SR will last longer in the high drain
>> devices?
>
> I could be wrong, but I'm guessing it's just a typo and they meant that
> the SR type is preferred.

this is what i thought.
>
> It is from wikipedia -- you could ask on the discussion page for the
> article. If it turns out that it's correct as worded, then that would
> be surprising, and the article should be clarified to explain why the
> counterintuitive thing is the case. If it isn't correct, it needs to
> be correct. Either way, someone needs to draw attention to the article
> so that the wikipedia participants can improve it.

didn't know there was a discussion page. i'll go look for it. thanks.

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Jan 3 2008 6:14 am
From: "AllEmailDeletedImmediately"

"Logan Shaw" <lshaw-usenet@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
news:477c5d89$0$28871$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
> George wrote:
>> imascot wrote:
>
>>> I have complained to Altopia.com, the news server this individual is
>>> using. Please join me and copy just one of his messages, showing full
>>> headers, to abuse@altopia.com What I wrote was:
>
>> Here is the nuts website:
>>
>>

http://www.five.org.uk/
>>
>> He actually uses a CAPTCHA on his response form because he knows how
>> annoying SPAM can be...
>
> Well, I'm not a trained psychologist, and even a trained psychologist
> couldn't diagnosed someone based on a web site they created, but
> nevertheless I'm fairly sure the guy is a paranoid schizophrenic.
> Which is kind of sad, really, but what can you do? The guy is already
> aware of the possibility and has discounted it even though it's most
> likely the truth.

i have a brother who is a diagnosed paranoid schizophrenic. i think the
schizophrenic part requires that you hear voices and speak to imaginary
people. my brother has several of these "friends", and i think the reason
he won't take his meds is because they go away when he does and he misses
them.

> Getting back on a practical level, his Usenet abuse is not likely to
> be stopped by conventional means. To him (within his delusion), it's
> probably critically important to get the word out on Usenet, so his
> motivation is stronger than that of a regular spammer, and he appears
> to be relatively smart as well.
>
> - Logan

yeah. all usenet providers will have to block him before his postings
get out. it's a pita, but who's he really hurting?

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Jan 3 2008 6:48 am
From: George

AllEmailDeletedImmediately wrote:
> "Logan Shaw" <lshaw-usenet@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:477c5d89$0$28871$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>> George wrote:
>>> imascot wrote:
>>>> I have complained to Altopia.com, the news server this individual is
>>>> using. Please join me and copy just one of his messages, showing full
>>>> headers, to abuse@altopia.com What I wrote was:
>>> Here is the nuts website:
>>>
>>>

http://www.five.org.uk/
>>>
>>> He actually uses a CAPTCHA on his response form because he knows how
>>> annoying SPAM can be...
>> Well, I'm not a trained psychologist, and even a trained psychologist
>> couldn't diagnosed someone based on a web site they created, but
>> nevertheless I'm fairly sure the guy is a paranoid schizophrenic.
>> Which is kind of sad, really, but what can you do? The guy is already
>> aware of the possibility and has discounted it even though it's most
>> likely the truth.
>
> i have a brother who is a diagnosed paranoid schizophrenic. i think the
> schizophrenic part requires that you hear voices and speak to imaginary
> people. my brother has several of these "friends", and i think the reason
> he won't take his meds is because they go away when he does and he misses
> them.

You might be more accurate that you know. All of the direct to the
public pharmaceutical advertising always shows that if you take
"zelarim" the sun will shine, cute butterflies will appear, birds will
chirp and everything will be happy.

I have 2 friends who have taken prescription mind altering drugs and a
friend who is a doctor in that field and they all say that in many cases
the symptoms go away but unlike all of the cute happy stuff from the
marketing you essentially become "walking dead". So people choose not
to take the drugs because of that bad effect.

>
>> Getting back on a practical level, his Usenet abuse is not likely to
>> be stopped by conventional means. To him (within his delusion), it's
>> probably critically important to get the word out on Usenet, so his
>> motivation is stronger than that of a regular spammer, and he appears
>> to be relatively smart as well.
>>
>> - Logan
>
> yeah. all usenet providers will have to block him before his postings
> get out. it's a pita, but who's he really hurting?
>
>

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Jan 3 2008 6:54 am
From: "AllEmailDeletedImmediately"

"George" <george@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:Z5CdnUVMOKUwaOHanZ2dnUVZ_j-dnZ2d@comcast.com...
> AllEmailDeletedImmediately wrote:
snip

>> i have a brother who is a diagnosed paranoid schizophrenic. i think the
>> schizophrenic part requires that you hear voices and speak to imaginary
>> people. my brother has several of these "friends", and i think the
>> reason
>> he won't take his meds is because they go away when he does and he misses
>> them.
>
>
> You might be more accurate that you know. All of the direct to the public
> pharmaceutical advertising always shows that if you take "zelarim" the sun
> will shine, cute butterflies will appear, birds will chirp and everything
> will be happy.
>
> I have 2 friends who have taken prescription mind altering drugs and a
> friend who is a doctor in that field and they all say that in many cases
> the symptoms go away but unlike all of the cute happy stuff from the
> marketing you essentially become "walking dead". So people choose not to
> take the drugs because of that bad effect.

that was also one of his complaints, but i think the doctors just had him on
too high a dose. allopathic doctors start high and work down. i'm trying
to convince him to find a d.o. who will start low and work up.

==============================================================================
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http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/6ec8a2e8719a217f?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Jan 3 2008 6:21 am
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== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Jan 3 2008 6:29 am
From: "Evelyn C. Leeper"

Leroy wrote:
> Rod Speed wrote:
>> Evelyn C. Leeper <eleeper@optonline.net> wrote:
>>> It is especially important in the summer to avoid turning on more
>>> lights and heavy motors, since they will heat up the house and make
>>> the A/C work harder.
>>
>> Nope, those make a trivial difference with A/C.
>
> Bullshite. A few hundred watts of heat is quite noticable. I'm in
> a 34 foot RV and 400 watts of electric heat is more than enough
> to keep the interior 30 degrees F warmer than the exterior.
>
> In the summer, any standby energy consumed results in heat
> which must be removed by AC using yet more energy.

To back up Leroy (who was backing me up), in the summertime I notice a
definite difference in temperature in our family room when I have the
six ceiling lights turned on for any significant time. (In the winter,
one doesn't mind as much, but I'm sure the effect is still there.)

--
Evelyn C. Leeper
I believe I found the missing link between animal
and civilized man. It is us. -Konrad Lorenz

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Jan 3 2008 6:30 am
From: "Evelyn C. Leeper"

Rod Speed wrote:
> Leroy <leroy@ addy.invalid> wrote
>> Rod Speed wrote
>>> Evelyn C. Leeper <eleeper@optonline.net> wrote
>>>> Jeff wrote:
>>>>> Lou wrote
>
>>>>>> Can anyone tell me how they actually cut thier utility bills?
>
>>>>> Most of my utility bill is heating and AC. It is the same for most people.
>
>>>>> Number one method to cut heating costs is to seal air leaks and add
>>>>> insulation where it is lacking. Sealing air leaks has a fast payback,
>>>>> adding insulation may take a couple years.
>
>>> Changed all lights to CFL and shut them off all but a couple.
>
>>>> It is especially important in the summer to avoid turning on more lights and heavy motors, since they will heat up
>>>> the house and make the A/C work harder.
>
>>> Nope, those make a trivial difference with A/C.
>
>> Bullshite.
>
> Your sig is supposed to have a -- in front of it.
>
>> A few hundred watts of heat is quite noticable.
>
> Utterly bogus numbers when talking about CFLs.
>
>> I'm in a 34 foot RV
>
> And the OP aint.
>
>> and 400 watts of electric heat is more than enough to keep the interior 30 degrees F warmer than the exterior.
>
> And even someone as stupid as you should be able to grasp that no one
> in a 34 foot RV would be likely to have 400W of CFLs on very often at all.
>
>> In the summer, any standby energy consumed results in heat which must be removed by AC using yet more energy.
>
> Duh. Pity that with a normal A/C house, the power used for
> the A/C is gunna be a hell of a lot more than a few extra CFLs.
>
>

Let me clarify--the lights I was referring to were incandescent lights.
(The fixtures won't take CFLs.)

--
Evelyn C. Leeper
I believe I found the missing link between animal
and civilized man. It is us. -Konrad Lorenz

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Do you prefer more natural products but hate the high price of them?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/68b2f4e4e1262660?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Jan 3 2008 6:31 am
From: glessmom

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== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Thurs, Jan 3 2008 6:50 am
From: "AllEmailDeletedImmediately"

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2008/1/3/antidepressants-and-violence.aspx

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Thurs, Jan 3 2008 7:02 am
From: Bert Hyman

derjda@hotmail.com (AllEmailDeletedImmediately) wrote in
news:XC6fj.2401$Je6.1836@trnddc01:

> http://articles.mercola.com

Is an osteopath really the best person to go to for this sort of
information?

--
Bert Hyman | St. Paul, MN | bert@iphouse.com

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Thurs, Jan 3 2008 7:04 am
From: Just A User

Bert Hyman wrote:
> derjda@hotmail.com (AllEmailDeletedImmediately) wrote in
> news:XC6fj.2401$Je6.1836@trnddc01:
>
>> http://articles.mercola.com
>
> Is an osteopath really the best person to go to for this sort of
> information?
>
Perhaps one should seek the advise of a psycho-path.

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Thurs, Jan 3 2008 7:09 am
From: "AllEmailDeletedImmediately"

"Bert Hyman" <bert@iphouse.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9A1A5C199626BVeebleFetzer@127.0.0.1...
> derjda@hotmail.com (AllEmailDeletedImmediately) wrote in
> news:XC6fj.2401$Je6.1836@trnddc01:
>
>> http://articles.mercola.com
>
> Is an osteopath really the best person to go to for this sort of
> information?

why not? they're full fledged doctors, just like an md. just a different
approach. they have prescription and hospital privileges and do surgery.

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== 1 of 1 ==
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