Frugal Living: Dec 7, 2008

Sunday, December 7, 2008

misc.consumers.frugal-living - 25 new messages in 7 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

* 533,000 Jobs Lost While Feds Import 140,000 Foreign Workers! - 9 messages, 7
authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/a1526898a9ebc1d2?hl=en
* Is keeping a car 50 years frugal? - 4 messages, 4 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/973c7ade053ebb0f?hl=en
* supreme court to determine obama presidential eligibilty - 5 messages, 4
authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/546a49e0512f561c?hl=en
* The Next Bank Heist: DEBIT CARDS - 2 messages, 2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/535b1a94bef90ab2?hl=en
* Folks, this is a real depression, protect your assets - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/cb1cc803cf7130ab?hl=en
* Miss Manners on credit cards and protective clerks/managers - 2 messages, 2
authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/d050e2dac2223a44?hl=en
* Doorbell always uses electricity! - 2 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/3198294a289e9e57?hl=en

==============================================================================
TOPIC: 533,000 Jobs Lost While Feds Import 140,000 Foreign Workers!
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/a1526898a9ebc1d2?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 9 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 3:38 pm
From: clams_casino

suds macheath wrote:

>
> ---Teacher's don't get paid through the summer months..

Call it what you want. They average $60k around here for a job that
provides them with 12 weeks and a dozen holidays off. Try to find that
in the corporate world.

> ..they are 10 month employees...you have to work for a while to save
> up 60 vacation days.....and here they are limited to 60 days....
>
> Other than UAW
>
>> and government employees, I'm not aware of many paying full (or even
>> 90%) health coverage.
>
>
> ----But most have health care benefits for salaried employees, do they
> not?

But typically at about 40-50% - not 90m- 100%.

== 2 of 9 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 3:42 pm
From: clams_casino

John Galt wrote:

> Lubow wrote:
>
>>
>> "John Galt" <kady101@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:LuF_k.382974$vK2.302392@en-nntp-03.dc1.easynews.com...
>>
>>> Lubow wrote:
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> But, why would a retired engineer want to get up at 6AM and be
>>>>> grading papers in front of the TV at night for 30K per year?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thirty K per year? On which planet is that?
>>>
>>>
>>> Yours. The average teaching starting salary in the US is @ 32K. Look
>>> at the NEA website -- one of the things they are pushing for is a
>>> national minimum starting salary of 40K.
>>
>>
>> I have read of teachers in the red states requiring food stamps to
>> get by. Thanks for sharing that piece of info.
>
>
> It has nothing to do with red/blue. Starting salary in Houston is 38K,
> Dallas 37K, and Kansas City 36K, while they're under 32K in
> Philadelphia and Chicago, and 34.5K in D.C. I suspect the beginning
> teacher in the NYC Metro Area (42K) is a lot more likely to be on food
> stamps than the starting teacher in Houston.
>
> JG

Teachers do tend to start at relatively low wages, but their pay tends
to scale up at a much faster rate than typical corporate jobs. Most
corporate jobs tend to get inflation plus perhaps a few percent with
some raises with promotions each perhaps five years. Teachers
typically receive inflation adjustments plus regular pay grade increase
that greatly reward those who have a few years on the job.

== 3 of 9 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 3:45 pm
From: "HeyBub"

Mike wrote:
>
>
> the decline in the value of computer programming careers was the
> natural result of the rise of microsoft because the smart programmers
> refused to be caged by the lame ass windows environment and went off
> to find greener pastures elsewhere. another reason is that venture
> capitalists don't like funding software projects for which, on the
> off chance one actually becomes highly successful, the profits will
> all wind up in the hands of a highly predatory monopolistic law firm
> that specializes in violating antitrust (ie. msft).

Quite possibly. Programmers are like dentists - technically oriented,
scientifically trained, but also artists. Every sterotype of the beatnik
living in a garret in Greenwich Village holds for (most) programmers, even
if they wear three-piece suits in a commercial environment.

I've seen programs that didn't work, wouldn't work, and couldn't be made to
work, but were revered because of the style, elegance, and cleverness of the
author.

On the other hand, what's a "smart" programmer? The programmers who started
with Microsoft in the early years, and stuck it out, are multimillionaires.
Of course they were not true to their own natures, sinned against the basic
beauty of the machine-man interaction, and degenerated into venal slugs -
but they retired at age 30 on a 60-foot yacht.

They had no shame.

== 4 of 9 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 3:49 pm
From: John Galt

BobR wrote:
> On Dec 7, 6:25 am, John Galt <kady...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Kurt Ullman wrote:
>>> In article <nuI_k.392484$3I2.191...@en-nntp-02.dc1.easynews.com>,
>>> John Galt <kady...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> I can tell you that in Houston, the starting wage for an RN is about 50K
>>>> - 60K , and there's not enough to go around. Nursing wages are regional,
>>>> and your part of the country may differ. But down here, they are *not*
>>>> being brought to save money -- they're being brought because there's not
>>>> enough coming out of the nursing schools to meet demand.
>>>> JG
>>> The nursing shortage probably isn't at that end. Studies have
>>> consistently shown that between 15% and 20% of RNs under 65 are no
>>> longer in nursing. You get even half of those back and you are in good
>>> shape. Even at the height of my youthful powers, I couldn't take more
>>> than 3 years at a time before I had to get out at least for awhile.
>> Yea, that's the other issue. Since the consolidation of private hospital
>> chains (you probably know this better than I do) floor nurse/patient
>> ratios have skyrocketed, making the job a crappy one. (Doesn't explain
>> why the schools are short on nurses, but the entire "job satisfaction"
>> thing is obviously playing in.
>>
>> JG- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> With the growing uncertain future of the healthcare field, nobody sees
> healthcare as a good choice for a career. Who wants to spend huge
> sums of money on graduate and post graduate degrees along with the
> subsequent low paying years as a resident for a career that may only
> pay the equilivent of teacher pay?

That's one of the big question marks in the 800 lb gorilla called
"health care reform." It's hard to imagine any nationalized system
working without reducing the pay of the higher-level medical
professionals and the profits of hospitals.

JG
>

== 5 of 9 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 3:57 pm
From: John Galt

HeyBub wrote:
> John Galt wrote:
>>> I have read of teachers in the red states requiring food stamps to
>>> get by. Thanks for sharing that piece of info.
>> It has nothing to do with red/blue. Starting salary in Houston is 38K,
>> Dallas 37K, and Kansas City 36K, while they're under 32K in
>> Philadelphia and Chicago, and 34.5K in D.C. I suspect the beginning
>> teacher in the NYC Metro Area (42K) is a lot more likely to be on
>> food stamps than the starting teacher in Houston.
>>
>
> Take that Houston $38K and wind it down to an hourly rate.
>
> Let's see... Texas mandates 180 days of instruction. At seven hours per day,
> that's 1,260 hours. $38,000/1260 is a bit over $30/hour. Not as much as a
> Detroit auto-worker, but not chump-change either.
>
> Here's another bit of trivia: The Houston Independent School District spends
> about 45% of it's employee budget on teacher salaries and perks. Oh, you've
> got to have somebody to drive the busses and print the paychecks, but when
> less than half your personnel costs go directly to your primary mission,
> something's amiss.

There was a movement up a few years ago (something to do with the owner
behind overstock.com, IIRC) to get school districts to agree that 60% of
their tax receipts should be earmarked for classroom use. It went
nowhere, but illustrated the fact that most school districts maintain a
significant non-classroom bureacracy. PART of that is that we're the
only major nation without a national curriculum, and each school
district thus needs curriculum educrats to figure out what's going to be
taught.

But the bloat in the school districts is indefensible --- and I suspect
HISD is less an offender than many.

>
>

== 6 of 9 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 4:27 pm
From: Caesar Romano

On Sat, 6 Dec 2008 20:07:46 -0500, "Lubow" <lubow@lubowindustries.com>
wrote Re Re: 533,000 Jobs Lost While Feds Import 140,000 Foreign
Workers!:

>>
>> Doesn't say much for the prospects of American tech careers. If I had
>> been smarter I would have been one of those who left after 10-years
>> instead of hanging in for 40 (well, 37 actually) years.
>
>Are you a PE?

Yes. I have PE licenses in two states in two separate disciplines (2
in California and 1 in Alabama).

== 7 of 9 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 4:58 pm
From: BobR

On Dec 7, 5:49 pm, John Galt <kady...@gmail.com> wrote:
> BobR wrote:
> > On Dec 7, 6:25 am, John Galt <kady...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Kurt Ullman wrote:
> >>> In article <nuI_k.392484$3I2.191...@en-nntp-02.dc1.easynews.com>,
> >>> John Galt <kady...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> I can tell you that in Houston, the starting wage for an RN is about 50K
> >>>> - 60K , and there's not enough to go around. Nursing wages are regional,
> >>>> and your part of the country may differ. But down here, they are *not*
> >>>> being brought to save money -- they're being brought because there's not
> >>>> enough coming out of the nursing schools to meet demand.
> >>>> JG
> >>> The nursing shortage probably isn't at that end. Studies have
> >>> consistently shown that between 15% and 20% of RNs under 65 are no
> >>> longer in nursing. You get even half of those back and you are in good
> >>> shape. Even at the height of my youthful powers, I couldn't take more
> >>> than 3 years at a time before I had to get out at least for awhile.
> >> Yea, that's the other issue. Since the consolidation of private hospital
> >> chains (you probably know this better than I do) floor nurse/patient
> >> ratios have skyrocketed, making the job a crappy one. (Doesn't explain
> >> why the schools are short on nurses, but the entire "job satisfaction"
> >> thing is obviously playing in.
>
> >> JG- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > With the growing uncertain future of the healthcare field, nobody sees
> > healthcare as a good choice for a career. Who wants to spend huge
> > sums of money on graduate and post graduate degrees along with the
> > subsequent low paying years as a resident for a career that may only
> > pay the equilivent of teacher pay?
>
> That's one of the big question marks in the 800 lb gorilla called
> "health care reform." It's hard to imagine any nationalized system
> working without reducing the pay of the higher-level medical
> professionals and the profits of hospitals.
>
> JG
>
>
>
> - Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Please show me where the hospitals are making all that profit. You
want to reform healthcare then the first place you look is at
insurance companies. They sit in the position of screwing both the
healthcare providers and the patients. They sole purpose is to make a
profit and they don't give a damn how they do it. The insurance
companies dictate what will be paid to the providers and that extends
to what the providers can charge. Tell me one other business that
must accept what the customer decides they will pay rather that amount
is enough to cover their costs. If the providers don't accept, the
insurance companies have no qualms about forcing the patients to go
elsewhere even if the quality of the care is unacceptable.

== 8 of 9 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 5:37 pm
From: "Percival P. Cassidy"

On 12/07/08 07:58 pm BobR wrote:

> Please show me where the hospitals are making all that profit. You
> want to reform healthcare then the first place you look is at
> insurance companies. They sit in the position of screwing both the
> healthcare providers and the patients. They sole purpose is to make a
> profit and they don't give a damn how they do it. The insurance
> companies dictate what will be paid to the providers and that extends
> to what the providers can charge. Tell me one other business that
> must accept what the customer decides they will pay rather that amount
> is enough to cover their costs. If the providers don't accept, the
> insurance companies have no qualms about forcing the patients to go
> elsewhere even if the quality of the care is unacceptable.

People tell me that things have changed in Australia in the last 20
years or so, but it used to be that most hospitals were run as a public
service by religious bodies (denominations or religious orders) or by
(semi-)government bodies: e.g., the Brisbane Hospitals Board.

And many of the health-insurance organizations were typically some kind
of cooperative.

Perce

== 9 of 9 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 5:52 pm
From: The Daring Dufas

The administrators soak up a heck of a lot of
money. Some of them are paid CEO like salaries.

TDD

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Is keeping a car 50 years frugal?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/973c7ade053ebb0f?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 3:43 pm
From: "'nam vet."

It's going on 47 next year. should I keep it? What if I buy a ford and
they go under. warrantee, parts service?
--
When the Power of Love,replaces the Love of Power.
that's Evolution.

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 3:52 pm
From: "Lou"

"'nam vet." <georgewkspam@humboldt1.com> wrote in message
news:georgewkspam-FF6CDA.15425507122008@news.humboldt1.com...
> It's going on 47 next year. should I keep it? What if I buy a ford and
> they go under. warrantee, parts service?

Let's see, you have a 47 year old car, and you're worried about warrantees,
parts, and service on a new(er) car? Whatever happens, the parts and
service situation would have to be easier than it is for that 47 year old
car.

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 4:20 pm
From: "Daniel T."

"'nam vet." <georgewkspam@humboldt1.com> wrote:

> It's going on 47 next year. should I keep it? What if I buy a ford and
> they go under. warrantee, parts service?

How much does your 47 year old car cost you over the next year? Over the
next 5 years? Over the next 10 years? Compare that to the cost of a new
car...

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 5:36 pm
From: "h"

"Daniel T." <daniel_t@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:daniel_t-C5F6C0.19202207122008@earthlink.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
> "'nam vet." <georgewkspam@humboldt1.com> wrote:
>
>> It's going on 47 next year. should I keep it? What if I buy a ford and
>> they go under. warrantee, parts service?
>
> How much does your 47 year old car cost you over the next year? Over the
> next 5 years? Over the next 10 years? Compare that to the cost of a new
> car...

Assuming the OP isn't trolling, I'll bet the 47 year old car was built to
last and might very well be worth keeping on the road until it dies. New
cars, particularly anything built in the USA are not worth much. When my old
Subaru (built in Japan) dies I will reluctantly replace it with one built
here, but I already know they aren't built as well as they were when made in
Japan. I've seen the Consumer Reports stats.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: supreme court to determine obama presidential eligibilty
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/546a49e0512f561c?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 4:05 pm
From: "JR Weiss"

"AllEmailDeletedImmediately" <derjda@hotmail.com> wrote ...
>
>>> OK, I found it. No. 08A407. But this suit accepts that Obama was born in the
>>> USA and was an American citizen at birth.
>>
>> And? Again, a citizen is not eligible to be President. -Dave
>>
> correct. american citizenship does not automatically constitutionally qualify
> one to be prez

However, an American citizen who achieved that citizenship by virtue of being
born in the US IS a "natural born" citizen, and therefore meets the basic
criterion!

== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 4:18 pm
From: "Daniel T."

"Dave" <noway1@noway2.not> wrote:

> > >
> > > Different case:
> > > http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2008/12/obama-birth-cer.html
> >
> > OK, I found it. No. 08A407. But this suit accepts that Obama was born in
> > the USA and was an American citizen at birth.
>
> And? Again, a citizen is not eligible to be President. -Dave

So only non-citizens can be President of the USA? You might want to
rethink your logic.

== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 4:44 pm
From: "Dave"

"JR Weiss" <jrweiss@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:ghhodm$fdj$1@news.motzarella.org...
> "AllEmailDeletedImmediately" <derjda@hotmail.com> wrote ...
>>
>>>> OK, I found it. No. 08A407. But this suit accepts that Obama was born
>>>> in the USA and was an American citizen at birth.
>>>
>>> And? Again, a citizen is not eligible to be President. -Dave
>>>
>> correct. american citizenship does not automatically constitutionally
>> qualify one to be prez
>
> However, an American citizen who achieved that citizenship by virtue of
> being born in the US IS a "natural born" citizen, and therefore meets the
> basic criterion!

Unless you become a citizen of another country where you can not hold dual
citizenship.
Or unless your grandmother swears that you were born in another country.
Or unless...

Too many unanswered questions. We'll have to wait for the Supremes to
ule. -Dave

== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 4:46 pm
From: "Dave"

>> > > Different case:
>> > > http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2008/12/obama-birth-cer.html
>> >
>> > OK, I found it. No. 08A407. But this suit accepts that Obama was born
>> > in
>> > the USA and was an American citizen at birth.
>>
>> And? Again, a citizen is not eligible to be President. -Dave
>
> So only non-citizens can be President of the USA? You might want to
> rethink your logic.

You have to be a "natural born" citizen to be President. As I've stated
before, the (well disputed) birth certificate is a red herring. There is a
good chance Obama was a citizen of Indonesia at some point. If that is so
(probably is, but the Supremes will rule on it) then Obama is not a natural
born citizen of the U.S. -Dave

== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 5:33 pm
From: Shawn Hirn

In article <ghhql7$6fi$1@nntp.motzarella.org>, "Dave" <noway@nohow.not>
wrote:

> "JR Weiss" <jrweiss@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
> news:ghhodm$fdj$1@news.motzarella.org...
> > "AllEmailDeletedImmediately" <derjda@hotmail.com> wrote ...
> >>
> >>>> OK, I found it. No. 08A407. But this suit accepts that Obama was born
> >>>> in the USA and was an American citizen at birth.
> >>>
> >>> And? Again, a citizen is not eligible to be President. -Dave
> >>>
> >> correct. american citizenship does not automatically constitutionally
> >> qualify one to be prez
> >
> > However, an American citizen who achieved that citizenship by virtue of
> > being born in the US IS a "natural born" citizen, and therefore meets the
> > basic criterion!
>
> Unless you become a citizen of another country where you can not hold dual
> citizenship.

That's just your opinion.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: The Next Bank Heist: DEBIT CARDS
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/535b1a94bef90ab2?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 5:29 pm
From: "h"

"sarge137" <rbooth9858@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:15bd609e-054c-

>If anyone knows of a reward program with ALL of the following criteria
>please post a link. I'd love to see it:

>1. No annual fee.
>2. Substantial credit line (at least 15K)
>3. Full 30 day grace period from date of transaction.
>4. No minimum average balance.
>5. Fix APR less than 8%.
>6. Includes every penny of all transactions, not just retail
>purchases.
>7. Pays rewards by check at least semi-annually.

Citibank, except for #5. I have no idea what the interest rate is since I
pay it off every month. I suspect it is quite high.

I get back $250 by check every time I hit 250,000 "points", which happened
three time this year for a cash back of $750. Not bad since I never pay them
a dime.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 5:30 pm
From: Shawn Hirn

In article
<15bd609e-054c-4c24-91b3-509dbfe7df22@x38g2000yqj.googlegroups.com>,
sarge137 <rbooth9858@yahoo.com> wrote:

> If anyone knows of a reward program with ALL of the following criteria
> please post a link. I'd love to see it:
>
> 1. No annual fee.
> 2. Substantial credit line (at least 15K)
> 3. Full 30 day grace period from date of transaction.
> 4. No minimum average balance.
> 5. Fix APR less than 8%.
> 6. Includes every penny of all transactions, not just retail
> purchases.
> 7. Pays rewards by check at least semi-annually.

Check http://www.bankrate.com for information on credit card deals.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Folks, this is a real depression, protect your assets
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/cb1cc803cf7130ab?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 5:17 pm
From: pyotr filipivich

[Default] I missed the Staff Meeting but the Minutes record that
Gunner Asch <gunner@NOSPAMlightspeed.net> reported Elvis on Sun, 07
Dec 2008 01:56:48 -0800 in misc.survivalism :
>On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 00:57:01 -0500, Jeffrey Turner
><jturner@localnet.com> wrote:
>
>>Dave wrote:
>>>> Not to mention that all that "unskilled labor" with a few more bucks in
>>>> their pockets would buy more stuff, which would generate private sector
>>>> jobs making and selling that stuff. Dave might want to learn something
>>>> about the multiplier effect.
>>>>
>>>> --Jeff
>>>
>>> Jeff - Marxism does not work. -Dave
>>
>>Dave,
>>
>>Your brain doesn't work, apparently. If you've got economic facts to
>>argue with, show 'em. Or shut up and learn.
>>
>>--Jeff
>
>
>Deff appears to be in denial.
>
>Heads up..Marxism DOESNT work. Never has, never will.

Marxism will work, provided, and I repeat _PROVIDED_ that every
one acts in a completely moral and unselfish manner. Provided there
is 100% compliance with this requirement, it would work. But in the
real world, outside possibly in a small monastery, Marxism fails,
because Marxism is not dealing with people as they really are.

tschus
pyotr
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Miss Manners on credit cards and protective clerks/managers
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/d050e2dac2223a44?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 5:33 pm
From: "h"

"Steve Daniels" <sdaniels@gorge.net> wrote in message
news:3ffoj4ts8m623kqv55ll784r0mg5fpsb3f@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 5 Dec 2008 15:15:00 -0800, against all advice, something
> compelled Coffee's For Closers <USENET2008@THE-DOMAIN-IN.SIG>, to
> say:
>
>> The logic is to make a credit card transaction as easy as
>> possible. So that you won't be discouraged by the small extra
>> hassle of ID. The Visa and MasterCard associations want card
>> usage to be as easy as cash, or even easier.
>
>
> You know on the back, on that little strip where you're supposed
> to put your signature? Mine says, "Ask for picture ID."
>
>
And you know what? That's not legal. Not signing the card is a violation of
the card agreement, and merchants are not supposed to accept unsigned cards.
If they do the charge can be easily contested. The post office, for example,
will not take your credit card if it is not signed. Neither will many
businesses, mine included. Also, at least here in NY, it is a violation of
the merchant agreement to ask a customer for ID if they are using a credit
card. So...if you don't sign your card I can't accept it, and I'm not
allowed to ask for the picture ID you'd rather give. How often are you able
to use the card for anything expect swipe purchases?

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 5:53 pm
From: Evelyn Leeper

h wrote:
> "Steve Daniels" <sdaniels@gorge.net> wrote in message
> news:3ffoj4ts8m623kqv55ll784r0mg5fpsb3f@4ax.com...
>> On Fri, 5 Dec 2008 15:15:00 -0800, against all advice, something
>> compelled Coffee's For Closers <USENET2008@THE-DOMAIN-IN.SIG>, to
>> say:
>>
>>> The logic is to make a credit card transaction as easy as
>>> possible. So that you won't be discouraged by the small extra
>>> hassle of ID. The Visa and MasterCard associations want card
>>> usage to be as easy as cash, or even easier.
>>
>> You know on the back, on that little strip where you're supposed
>> to put your signature? Mine says, "Ask for picture ID."
>>
>>
> And you know what? That's not legal. Not signing the card is a violation of
> the card agreement, and merchants are not supposed to accept unsigned cards.
> If they do the charge can be easily contested. The post office, for example,
> will not take your credit card if it is not signed. Neither will many
> businesses, mine included. Also, at least here in NY, it is a violation of
> the merchant agreement to ask a customer for ID if they are using a credit
> card. So...if you don't sign your card I can't accept it, and I'm not
> allowed to ask for the picture ID you'd rather give. How often are you able
> to use the card for anything expect swipe purchases?

Mine says that, and I've never had a problem--including at the post
office. They ask for picture ID, I show it, and that's that.

--
Evelyn C. Leeper
Be braver. You cannot cross a chasm in two small jumps.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Doorbell always uses electricity!
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/3198294a289e9e57?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 5:49 pm
From: Andy Energy

On Nov 23, 7:51 pm, "hall...@aol.com" <hall...@aol.com> wrote:
> On Nov 23, 10:25 pm, d...@manx.misty.com (Don Klipstein) wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > In article <niqii4l1g9aapqul39t7ot2oalisq1b...@4ax.com>, PeterD wrote:
> > >On Sat, 22 Nov 2008 16:40:02 -0800, "Bill"
> > ><billnomailnosp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > >>This thread has seemed to hit a nerve!
>
> > >>Why are so many people getting upset that I am working to eliminate "vampire
> > >>loads" in my house and reduce my electric bill?
>
> > >>Anyway here are the facts about "vampire power" for those who are interested
> > >>in this (can be 5% of your electric bill and 75% of the power for electronic
> > >>things is used while the devices are turned off!)....
> > >>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standby_power
>
> > >Pleae do not confuse Wikipedia for facts. As to that 75% number, it is
> > >highly suspect.
>
> > >Again, a simple cost/benefit analysis would show the best path to
> > >follow. However, simple math is beyond many people who blindly follow
> > >whatever the current fad is (be it global warming, electric cars, or
> > >whatever) in an attempt to appear 'on top of things', and 'all wise'.
>
> > >In the end, sure you can save a few penny's of electricity, and spend
> > >dollars doing so.
>
> > <SNIP from here>
>
> > Putting in a little effort can decrease idling load by maybe 20 watts,
> > give or take (with major variation from household to household). That
> > amounts to about 175 KWH per year, or roughly about $20 per year at
> > current average residential electricity rates.
>
> > I really ought to get a power strip for my TV. Most of the energy it
> > consumes is consumed while it is off. Same is true of my DTV box. If my
> > computer system was not on a power strip, most of the energy consumed by
> > my printer and cable modem (and its wallwart) would be consumed while they
> > are off. If not for the power strip, about 5% of the energy consumed by
> > my monitor and 20% of the energy consumed by the contents of my tower case
> > would be consumed while they were off. And over 90% of the energy
> > consumed by my landline phone is consumed while it is on standby.
>
> > That 75% number sounds high to me - I think more like 30%, possibly
> > 40%, which is still a lot.
>
> > - Don Klipstein (d...@misty.com)- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> tv life expectancy and othewr deevices may be less,turned off from
> thermal cycle shock.
>
> DTV boxes use idle time to download guide updates and other utilities.
>
> its not a free lunch- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Turning on and off electronic devices, does it shorten their life?
Even if it does the electricity saved over the life of the unit will
buy a newer more efficient unit when it finally dies.

So here is my own research, I have a TV that is about 25 years old and
most of those years it has been turned off at the power strip. It
gets used about and average of 1 hour per day and it still works.

I do know that the new cable boxes when shut off on a power strip
loose their programming and can take some time to turn back on.

So we need to press the manufactures of these devices to have a very
low consumption when we are not using them. I've measured several
cable and TV's off and they can consume more than 40 watts off.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 5:55 pm
From: Andy Energy

On Nov 25, 10:20 am, Dave Garland <dave.garl...@wizinfo.com> wrote:
> Red Green wrote:
> > Probably cost a fortune to make refrigs that could use piped in air from
> > outside. And the further south you are the longer the ROI breakeven.
>
> Yes. I've been thinking of doing that for the last 40 years. It would
> work best if you could build the refrigerator into the house (think
> walk-in cooler, but smaller, or the undercounter fridges found in bars).
> You'd need a fan to circulate outside (cold) air in, and dampers to
> close off from the outside, and a controller to regulate the dampers &
> fan and switch to powered refrigeration when the outside temperature is
> warmer than refrigerator-interior temperature. Ditto for the freezer,
> though even in Minnesota there isn't that long a period when outside
> temperature stays below 0 degrees F. (But outside air could be used to
> cool the coils of the powered refrigeration and increase its
> efficiency.) For that (in Minnesota) you could avoid much of the
> refrigeration energy for maybe 3 months, and get some unknown
> improvement most of the rest of the year.
>
> One side benefit is that if you're building the fridge, you're not
> constrained to fitting insulation within a thin metal shell, you can
> insulate as much as you want. The dampers and the door would be the
> parts that were harder to insulate.
>
> But it does sound like a lot of work to accomplish.
>
> Dave

About 25 years ago I read an article about the guy that built a
supreinsulated freezer with thermal mass in it. He used a heat pipe
to freeze it al winter and it wouel swing through the summer.

Wow this is a long ways from a door bell

==============================================================================

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "misc.consumers.frugal-living"
group.

To post to this group, visit http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

To unsubscribe from this group, send email to misc.consumers.frugal-living+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com

To change the way you get mail from this group, visit:
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/subscribe?hl=en

To report abuse, send email explaining the problem to abuse@googlegroups.com

==============================================================================
Google Groups: http://groups.google.com/?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living - 24 new messages in 8 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Why not a holiday from auto buying?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/9e36c73bdf3daf50?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 12:23 pm
From: James

On Dec 6, 2:41 pm, wis...@yahoo.com wrote:
> For the next 6 months, at least, think about refraining from buying a
> new vehicle. If yours totally fails buy a used car or truck. (By the
> way, a new car is a crummy investment i.e. instant depreciation)
> Or have yours repaired. The current cars and trucks can easily run
> for 200,000 or more miles. This "holiday" will give us a chance to see
> if the Big 3 can make satisfactory progress i.e. restructuring.
>
> ted

I would think these are great times to buy a new car. Dealers are
going under and need to sell stock cheap. May be able to pick up a
REAL bargin.

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 1:48 pm
From: dennism3@dennism3.invalid (Dennis M)

In article
<7acbe238-dfee-4df4-b917-56ee8e37662c@v39g2000pro.googlegroups.com>, James
<j0069bond@hotmail.com> wrote:

>I would think these are great times to buy a new car. Dealers are
>going under and need to sell stock cheap. May be able to pick up a
>REAL bargin.

I ran across a GM infocommercial for Buick/Pontiac/GMC this morning, never
seen them do that before.

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 2:26 pm
From: George

Bob F wrote:
> "George" <george@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
> news:ghh46i$oac$1@news.motzarella.org...
>> hal@nospam.com wrote:
>>> On Sun, 7 Dec 2008 03:09:48 -0800 (PST), Anonymous Infidel - the
>>> anti-political talking head <messiah2999@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> is dead...Killed by Democrats who bashed our economy into submission
>>> idiot. Regulation is the responsibility of The Executive. It's the
>>> Republicans who pushed for deregulation, and it's deregulation that
>>> gave us this crisis. This is a Bush depression.
>> Then you might asked yourself who approved the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act (hint,
>> he was president in 1999) which repealed most of the banking regulations that
>> were put into effect after the last great depression. That laid the groundwork
>> for most of our current situation.
>
> And who was it that passed it for him to approve?
>
>
I hoped someone would mention that. You just have to laugh when people
who drink either red or blue kool-aid get upset about the -other- party
when the reality is all of the politicians are owned by the fat cats and
special interests. The Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act is a perfect example of
that. The red congress created it and the blue president supported and
signed it. And it met the intended result. The fat cats were free to do
almost anything they wanted generating remarkably similar results to the
great depression.

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 3:17 pm
From: aemeijers

James wrote:
> On Dec 6, 2:41 pm, wis...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> For the next 6 months, at least, think about refraining from buying a
>> new vehicle. If yours totally fails buy a used car or truck. (By the
>> way, a new car is a crummy investment i.e. instant depreciation)
>> Or have yours repaired. The current cars and trucks can easily run
>> for 200,000 or more miles. This "holiday" will give us a chance to see
>> if the Big 3 can make satisfactory progress i.e. restructuring.
>>
>> ted
>
> I would think these are great times to buy a new car. Dealers are
> going under and need to sell stock cheap. May be able to pick up a
> REAL bargin.

I've looked. Can't find anything I'd care to own. All pug-ugly gigantic
Hot Wheels cars, these days. (especially all the current Chrysler
products.) What are their stylists smoking? Even Honda and Mercedes look
like crap lately, with those silly wrap-around $500 headlights and
too-tall beltlines that everyone else is using. They don't even look
like cars and pickups any more. And since I need a vehicle with hauling
capability, what is with those jellybean cargo areas on anything with a
tailgate? You have to shove anything tall in about two feet to close the
gate.

You damn kids get off my lawn!

--
aem rants....

== 1 of 11 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 12:27 pm
From: Mike

On Sat, 06 Dec 2008 11:33:26 -0800, RickH wrote:

> Computer programing also used to be a reliable career field, now I would
> never recommend that any student in America go into IT or programming in
> general.

the decline in the value of computer programming careers was the natural
result of the rise of microsoft because the smart programmers refused to
be caged by the lame ass windows environment and went off to find greener
pastures elsewhere. another reason is that venture capitalists don't
like funding software projects for which, on the off chance one actually
becomes highly successful, the profits will all wind up in the hands of a
highly predatory monopolistic law firm that specializes in violating
antitrust (ie. msft).

== 2 of 11 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 1:00 pm
From: Kurt Ullman

In article <88U_k.4979$YU6.1068@bignews8.bellsouth.net>,
suds macheath <sudsmcduff19911@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Kurt Ullman wrote:
> > In article <4ku_k.382964$vK2.67641@en-nntp-03.dc1.easynews.com>,
> > John Galt <kady101@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> You can be losing jobs at whatever rate you like, but if there's not
> >> enough RNs coming out of nursing schools to fill the openings, you
> >> either bring them in from elsewhere or go without. You don't want people
> >> who don't know what the hell they're doing administering meds to patients.
> >>
> >> Or teaching math, for that matter. Gene Green (D-Houston) has sponsored
> >> a bill to waive the immigrant worker visa filing fees for elementary and
> >> secondary schoools; Rep. Green is a pro-labor Democrat. What's
> >> responsible for that dissonance?
> > If I were a cynic, I would think that even imported teachers will
> > have to join the teacher's union.
>
> ----In Texas? BWAHAHAHA....ever heard of "right to work"?

Forgot it was Texas. Although the more people are teachers, the more
are likely to join. If one in ten joins a union, I would rather have 100
new teachers than ten.

== 3 of 11 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 2:04 pm
From: John Galt

Lubow wrote:
>>
>> It has nothing to do with red/blue. Starting salary in Houston is 38K,
>> Dallas 37K, and Kansas City 36K, while they're under 32K in
>> Philadelphia and Chicago, and 34.5K in D.C. I suspect the beginning
>> teacher in the NYC Metro Area (42K) is a lot more likely to be on food
>> stamps than the starting teacher in Houston.
>
>
> You're looking at all teachers, not just the tenured teachers.

I'm looking at starting salaries only. That's the context under which
the topic was brought into the discussion.

Big
> difference. Think of it as what NFL rookies get compared to what the
> vets get for doing essentially the same work.
>
> Anyway, I'm in the NY metro area and the biggest problem facing our
> school district is the amount of space allocated to parking. It seems
> the teachers do not want cars to either side of their Lexuses or Beemers.

== 4 of 11 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 3:13 pm
From: Goomba

patmpowers@gmail.com wrote:

>> You can be losing jobs at whatever rate you like, but if there's not
>> enough RNs coming out of nursing schools to fill the openings, you
>> either bring them in from elsewhere or go without. You don't want people
>> who don't know what the hell they're doing administering meds to patients.
>
> According to a friend in the health care business, the reason they
> can't get enough health care workers is that the wages are too low.
> Think $8 hour. Instead workers are being imported from overseas,
> particularly the Philippines, and they may not provide good care.

No one in Nursing makes only $8/hour. UN-licensed assistants *might*
(and I think wages are still higher) but they're not nurses nor should
they be confused as such.

== 5 of 11 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 3:18 pm
From: Goomba

harry wrote:

> Hello JG,
>
> You sound quite sure of yourself:
>
> When i was a little girl, my family was quarantined because our duplex
> neighbor had suspect polio. When i was doing HHA work, not only were
> AIDS patients not quarantined, but there was some kind of "law" that
> stated no HHA was allowed to know whether or not the patient had AIDS.
> I quit the field, and went back to sitting behind a desk. A lot of
> people did similar.
>

Well, not to berate you but you do know you can't catch HIV from close
contact, right? There is and never was any reason to quarantine someone
with HIV.
And obviously there is no need to "know" who has HIV as you are supposed
to assume *everyone* has it and act accordingly. Don't swap body fluids
with anyone, yada yada yada....

== 6 of 11 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 3:24 pm
From: BobR

On Dec 7, 6:25 am, John Galt <kady...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Kurt Ullman wrote:
> > In article <nuI_k.392484$3I2.191...@en-nntp-02.dc1.easynews.com>,
> > John Galt <kady...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> I can tell you that in Houston, the starting wage for an RN is about 50K
> >> - 60K , and there's not enough to go around. Nursing wages are regional,
> >> and your part of the country may differ. But down here, they are *not*
> >> being brought to save money -- they're being brought because there's not
> >> enough coming out of the nursing schools to meet demand.
>
> >> JG
>
> > The nursing shortage probably isn't at that end. Studies have
> > consistently shown that between 15% and 20% of RNs under 65 are no
> > longer in nursing. You get even half of those back and you are in good
> > shape. Even at the height of my youthful powers, I couldn't take more
> > than 3 years at a time before I had to get out at least for awhile.
>
> Yea, that's the other issue. Since the consolidation of private hospital
> chains (you probably know this better than I do) floor nurse/patient
> ratios have skyrocketed, making the job a crappy one. (Doesn't explain
> why the schools are short on nurses, but the entire "job satisfaction"
> thing is obviously playing in.
>
> JG- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

With the growing uncertain future of the healthcare field, nobody sees
healthcare as a good choice for a career. Who wants to spend huge
sums of money on graduate and post graduate degrees along with the
subsequent low paying years as a resident for a career that may only
pay the equilivent of teacher pay?

== 7 of 11 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 3:26 pm
From: Goomba

John Galt wrote:
> clams_casino wrote:

>> The primary problems with nursing are the wacky hours, expected
>> overtime and minimal increases in salary beyond that starting pay.
>
> Well, wacky brings overtime, and nurses can always increase
> certification to earn more. Surgical nurses make considerably more than
> floor RNs.
>
Not quite. Nurses with special skills and certifications earn more, even
when working on floors. Working in a "surgical" environment has nothing
to do with it.
And as a natural night owl, there is nothing "wacky" to me about working
nights. I do enjoy getting that night shift differential though.
I work 24 hours a week and earn about 70K a year. Not too shabby, IMO.

== 8 of 11 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 3:28 pm
From: Goomba

Lubow wrote:

> I have read of teachers in the red states requiring food stamps to get
> by. Thanks for sharing that piece of info.

None that I know do. But don't let me detract you from a little injected
drama.

== 9 of 11 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 3:30 pm
From: "HeyBub"

John Galt wrote:
>>
>> I have read of teachers in the red states requiring food stamps to
>> get by. Thanks for sharing that piece of info.
>
> It has nothing to do with red/blue. Starting salary in Houston is 38K,
> Dallas 37K, and Kansas City 36K, while they're under 32K in
> Philadelphia and Chicago, and 34.5K in D.C. I suspect the beginning
> teacher in the NYC Metro Area (42K) is a lot more likely to be on
> food stamps than the starting teacher in Houston.
>

Take that Houston $38K and wind it down to an hourly rate.

Let's see... Texas mandates 180 days of instruction. At seven hours per day,
that's 1,260 hours. $38,000/1260 is a bit over $30/hour. Not as much as a
Detroit auto-worker, but not chump-change either.

Here's another bit of trivia: The Houston Independent School District spends
about 45% of it's employee budget on teacher salaries and perks. Oh, you've
got to have somebody to drive the busses and print the paychecks, but when
less than half your personnel costs go directly to your primary mission,
something's amiss.

== 10 of 11 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 3:35 pm
From: "HeyBub"

John Galt wrote:
> Kurt Ullman wrote:
>> In article <nuI_k.392484$3I2.191356@en-nntp-02.dc1.easynews.com>,
>> John Galt <kady101@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> I can tell you that in Houston, the starting wage for an RN is
>>> about 50K - 60K , and there's not enough to go around. Nursing
>>> wages are regional, and your part of the country may differ. But
>>> down here, they are *not* being brought to save money -- they're
>>> being brought because there's not enough coming out of the nursing
>>> schools to meet demand. JG
>>
>> The nursing shortage probably isn't at that end. Studies have
>> consistently shown that between 15% and 20% of RNs under 65 are no
>> longer in nursing. You get even half of those back and you are in
>> good shape. Even at the height of my youthful powers, I couldn't
>> take more than 3 years at a time before I had to get out at least
>> for awhile.
>
> Yea, that's the other issue. Since the consolidation of private
> hospital chains (you probably know this better than I do) floor
> nurse/patient ratios have skyrocketed, making the job a crappy one.
> (Doesn't explain why the schools are short on nurses, but the entire
> "job satisfaction" thing is obviously playing in.
>

Some of the declining RN/patient ratio has to do with automation. Nurses no
longer have to take your temperature, heart rate, and blood pressure every
hour - they can watch it minute-by-minute on the monitors at the nurse's
station. The amount of paperwork has gone down as computers take over more
and more of the record-keeping.

== 11 of 11 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 3:38 pm
From: clams_casino

suds macheath wrote:

>
> ---Teacher's don't get paid through the summer months..

Call it what you want. They average $60k around here for a job that
provides them with 12 weeks and a dozen holidays off. Try to find that
in the corporate world.

But typically at about 40-50% - not 90m- 100%.

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 12:43 pm
From: sarge137

On Dec 7, 1:22 pm, sarge137 <rbooth9...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Dec 7, 12:34 pm, Vic Smith <thismailautodele...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Sun, 7 Dec 2008 10:59:34 -0800 (PST), sarge137
>
> > <rbooth9...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >On Dec 7, 7:24 am, "hall...@aol.com" <hall...@aol.com> wrote:
> > >> > > As to using credit cards, I'll still use mine whenever possible to
> > >> > > get that reward credit. My debit card pays zilch.
>
> > >> > I agree. I use my Visa card as much as possible. I pay it off in full
> > >> > each month and I collect points toward air mileage. It also lets me
> > >> > avoid the need to carry around as much cash with me, which makes it less
> > >> > likely that I will be robbed of my money.
>
> > >> after doing a multi year look at reward cards I decided they arent
> > >> worth the bother.
>
> > >Same here. With my clean as a whistle credit reports, and near max
> > >FICO scores, pretty much every credit card in the country has
> > >solicited me over the years, multiple times. I've carefully reviewed
> > >every "reward" program. Haven't seen one yet that would prompt me to
> > >change from the card I've been carrying since the early 70s. I see
> > >claims all the time that people net hundreds of dollars a year in
> > >rewards payments. Frankly, I don't believe them. I move thousands of
> > >dollars a year through my credit card account, and haven't found one
> > >yet that would NET me that much.
>
> > >If anyone knows of a reward program with ALL of the following criteria
> > >please post a link. I'd love to see it:
>
> > >1. No annual fee.
> > >2. Substantial credit line (at least 15K)
> > >3. Full 30 day grace period from date of transaction.
> > >4. No minimum average balance.
> > >5. Fix APR less than 8%.
> > >6. Includes every penny of all transactions, not just retail
> > >purchases.
> > >7. Pays rewards by check at least semi-annually.
>
> > I pretty much felt like you did, mostly because I was too lazy to
> > switch the card I've been using for many years.
> > I think I entertained getting a CitiBank card a couple years ago, but
> > said nah.
> > Anyway, Chase started their Freedom card a while back, and I bank and
> > CC with them, so I had them send me that card. That was May.
> > Just deposited a $200 check from the rewards, and there's $45 waiting.
> > Have to hit $50 for them to cut a check.
> > So that was free money. I figure it'll end up close to $300 for the 8
> > months this year I've had it.
> > You can look up the details yourself because I hate reading that crap,
> > but I can tell you it meets or exceeds all your criteria except APR.
> > Don't know what the APR is, because it never affects me.
>
> > --Vic
>
> I'll give'em a look - thanks for the info.
>
> The interest rate doesn't effect me directly either. Haven't paid any
> in years. But it's a point of principal. High volume customers, on
> whom they make major transaction fees, should be charged double
> digital interest if they have to let a balance ride for a short time.

Correction - "shouldn't" be charged double digit interest

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 3:33 pm
From: clams_casino

sarge137 wrote:

>On Dec 7, 7:24 am, "hall...@aol.com" <hall...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>>>>As to using credit cards, I'll still use mine whenever possible to
>>>>get that reward credit. My debit card pays zilch.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>I agree. I use my Visa card as much as possible. I pay it off in full
>>>each month and I collect points toward air mileage. It also lets me
>>>avoid the need to carry around as much cash with me, which makes it less
>>>likely that I will be robbed of my money.
>>>
>>>
>>after doing a multi year look at reward cards I decided they arent
>>worth the bother.
>>
>>
>
>Same here. With my clean as a whistle credit reports, and near max
>FICO scores, pretty much every credit card in the country has
>solicited me over the years, multiple times. I've carefully reviewed
>every "reward" program. Haven't seen one yet that would prompt me to
>change from the card I've been carrying since the early 70s. I see
>claims all the time that people net hundreds of dollars a year in
>rewards payments. Frankly, I don't believe them. I move thousands of
>dollars a year through my credit card account, and haven't found one
>yet that would NET me that much.
>
>If anyone knows of a reward program with ALL of the following criteria
>please post a link. I'd love to see it:
>
>1. No annual fee.
>2. Substantial credit line (at least 15K)
>3. Full 30 day grace period from date of transaction.
>4. No minimum average balance.
>5. Fix APR less than 8%.
>6. Includes every penny of all transactions, not just retail
>purchases.
>7. Pays rewards by check at least semi-annually.
>
>
>

My Chase Visa Freedom card meets most of the listed requirement.
Lacking is just a 20 day grace period, but that's no longer a problem
having an an online account to track & pay off the account. (Discover
has a 25 day grace period, but rebates tend to be more limited) and the
8% interest rate. Mine is 14%, but I haven't paid interest on a credit
card in over 30 years so it's a moot point for me.
I'm not sure what you are asking via #6. The rewards are a percentage
of every charge, in full, although the percentage ranges from 1 - 3 %
for that acrd, depending on the general category, including charges for
eBay fees and my cable bill.

Since the Chase Visa pays 3% on three categories, but only 1% elsewhere,
I use it for groceries, gas and cable bill. I charge some to my
Discover card to get 5% rebates on selected items in certain months with
the rest going to another card that provides a 2% rebate on all other
charges as points against motel stays (essentially $1 per point,
although not cash as you request).

None of these three have annual fees, all are >$15K credit line, none
have a minimum balance and two pay via cash. For me, the third pays
an equally useable alternative. None have the 30 grace or <8% interest
rate, but both a moot points for me. I don't understand item #6, but
all three pay a refund on the total amount charged, regardless of the
source (except cash advances).

I typically enjoy $400 / year form the Chase card, another $100/ yr
from Discover and several hundred dollars / yr in cash equivalent motel
rooms - all by simply using a charge card vs.cash. I typically don't
charge <$20, where I could realize even more.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 3:34 pm
From: clams_casino

Vic Smith wrote:

>On Sun, 7 Dec 2008 10:59:34 -0800 (PST), sarge137
><rbooth9858@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>>On Dec 7, 7:24 am, "hall...@aol.com" <hall...@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>>As to using credit cards, I'll still use mine whenever possible to
>>>>>get that reward credit. My debit card pays zilch.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>I agree. I use my Visa card as much as possible. I pay it off in full
>>>>each month and I collect points toward air mileage. It also lets me
>>>>avoid the need to carry around as much cash with me, which makes it less
>>>>likely that I will be robbed of my money.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>after doing a multi year look at reward cards I decided they arent
>>>worth the bother.
>>>
>>>
>>Same here. With my clean as a whistle credit reports, and near max
>>FICO scores, pretty much every credit card in the country has
>>solicited me over the years, multiple times. I've carefully reviewed
>>every "reward" program. Haven't seen one yet that would prompt me to
>>change from the card I've been carrying since the early 70s. I see
>>claims all the time that people net hundreds of dollars a year in
>>rewards payments. Frankly, I don't believe them. I move thousands of
>>dollars a year through my credit card account, and haven't found one
>>yet that would NET me that much.
>>
>>If anyone knows of a reward program with ALL of the following criteria
>>please post a link. I'd love to see it:
>>
>>1. No annual fee.
>>2. Substantial credit line (at least 15K)
>>3. Full 30 day grace period from date of transaction.
>>4. No minimum average balance.
>>5. Fix APR less than 8%.
>>6. Includes every penny of all transactions, not just retail
>>purchases.
>>7. Pays rewards by check at least semi-annually.
>>
>>
>>
>I pretty much felt like you did, mostly because I was too lazy to
>switch the card I've been using for many years.
>I think I entertained getting a CitiBank card a couple years ago, but
>said nah.
>Anyway, Chase started their Freedom card a while back, and I bank and
>CC with them, so I had them send me that card. That was May.
>Just deposited a $200 check from the rewards, and there's $45 waiting.
>Have to hit $50 for them to cut a check.
>
>
If you wait until $150, they will send you a check for $200.

>So that was free money. I figure it'll end up close to $300 for the 8
>months this year I've had it.
>You can look up the details yourself because I hate reading that crap,
>but I can tell you it meets or exceeds all your criteria except APR.
>Don't know what the APR is, because it never affects me.
>
>--Vic
>
>
>

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Tax Fraud, cancer, and the IRS
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/78b4d9d9aca35c0e?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 1:11 pm
From: phil scott

Many posting here are too young to recall the events related to gross
and ruthless corruption in the IRS ..... and its absolutely criminal
assaults on tax payers.

This led to congressinal investigations and an appalled congress in
the1980's... it seems the IRS had been engaged in the following:

- On the theory that going after one tax payer for small change,
ruthlessly.. would intimidate the rest they began using sledge hammers
to break down peoples doors to intimidate them... breaking the
windshield out of the volkswagen one pregnant tax payer was sitting
in, covering her with broken glass, when she refused to hand over her
wallet.

- Targeting very old people with paid off homes, arbitrarily send
them lien notices unless tens of thousands of dollars were paid
withhin 10 days. then seizing the homes if they didnt pay putting
many elderly on the street who in fact owned nothing...it drove many
to suicide... hard working people who helped build this nation...why?
so the criminal thugs in the IRS could get promotions.

thats a matter of congressional record.

Much of this was covered by the Readers Digest and also on 60
minutes..many times.. you can search it on google. key words 'IRS,
abuse, taxpayers, congressional investigation, suicides, elderly,
reforms, happening again'

***

The motives and drivers:

Its complex so I will address only the immediate motives. IRS
collectons agents were promoted and given raises in salary based on
how many liens they filed and enforcement actions they took... (the
more complex aspect involves the FED/IRS composit..its a private
operation, most dont know that... it does operate on US govt contracts
though. Search presidents Wilsons lament over that... he sighed the
original contracts. )

old folks, too old, too tired and feeble to fight back were their
primary targets of this ruthless scum. The tax claims were found to
be entirely without basis in many if not most of those cases, same
with imigrant businesses, another of the IRS's prime targets at the
time.... along with small business, one and two man shops not making
enough money to afford legal or even accounting assistance.

the IRS knew this, and targeted those extensively,

...with claims they knew were entirely bogus...and ruthless
enforcement that did 100 times more damage to their targets than any
legitimate tax owed... purpose to intimate the public into 'voluntary'
compliance.

that has failed for the the most part...the public has
caputulated..incentive to work, get educated and produce going going
gone..... we have now the current scene.

congressmen were seen crying as some of these testified...tear
streaming down some of their faces. The outrage resulted in some
changes... those have lasted about 15 years...but the ruthless
criminality is again ramping up... it will fail as all ruthless
criminality fails...

it ruins first its targets, then itself... as the idiots involve gloat
at their own good fortune to be 'workiing' for the govt. ... not
impressive.

I was one of the IRS targets in those days, because I was outspoken
then, as I am now.. so they came after me with automatic weapons and
sledge hammers breaking down the door to my home at the time... they
claimed I owed them 5,000 dollars. ... false. they did about 50,000
in damages. (thats when I ran them off with the 12 gage).

(I beat them in court later)

However not wishing a repeat of such crap I closed down my businesses
over the next few years, 27 employees at one of the operations..a
total of 50 or so in all... all those then out of work and no longer
paying any income taxes at all, in fact many going on welfare.

net loss to the tax base significant... we are seeing the same today
but its into the trillions now...let me explain.

I advise others that due to this nasty little habit of govt...dont
have a lot of taxable/ siezable assets, dont have high overhead costs
requiring high income with resulting high income tax exposure... keep
all that low, then you will not be mowed down or assaulted by machine
gun armed thugs as I was.. well they tried at least... I managed
to get the drop on them first.

(story in the 1975 Sacramento Calif Bee... key search term 3202 O
street)

At the time, the state said to me..... and its still in their
professional licensing exams... "we go after 'non payers' with the
goal of putting them out of business"....

"because we know the work has to get done, and if those who don't pay
are put out of business, then those who *do pay will do the work and
we will collect the taxes"...

"thats why we do this' ..."so pay your taxes" most of their exams
today have test questions on the topic as well.

so thats the thinking you see.... its bogus of course. The work
does not 'have' to get done.

***

My view, we are all willing to pay our *fair share...most of us at
least, I had a long history of that then, and since, often on 1040
form work not claiming any deductions... I let em keep the money. I
support fair taxation and pay a lot of taxes, direct and hidden.

Taxes at ruinous levels however, ruin the nation... no decent american
when they understand it well, support that.

***

beyond that level of taxation it destroys us, at that level we owe it
to ourselves not to self destruct....

its not rocket science and is addressed in the US
constitution. ..in fact this nation was founded on a tax rebellion, a
1% tea tax to be exact...now we have a net 51% tax rate on all of our
production (most of it going to pay interest to the foreign bankers
who loan paper money to us at interest via the FED).

Its a massive fraud half dozen US presidents have spoken the point...
search youtube for some video on the topic.. zeitgeist, fed.

btw in 1930 the income tax rate on the highest earners was 1%...now
its over 50% on blue collar workers... see?

that has had some disasterous effects...the US is no longer
competitive in the world economy, we are going out of work, the tax
base is in collapse, collapsing our own govt.

****

Cancer

this is what happens when any growth on any living organism turns
cancerous...it seeks its own interests, the cancer cells interests,
the civil 'servants' interests..other vested interests and kills its
host.

***

the 'work' does not actually have to be done.... duhhh...the building
does not have to be either built....or fixed, it can collapse into
ruins just like detroit...to total slum status... Entrepreneurs can
and do fade away...they do then when success is penalized to the point
of ruin... only criminals in govt and on the street are left standing.

the banana republcis prime examples.

****

the economy can shrink... the tax base can evaporate...

then the govt and tax payer collapse.. ... and thats whats occuring
now. for those reasons and only those reasons.

This those glorious tax collectors with the machine guns and sledge
hammers out of a job... while making about 200 million of us tax
collector targets, with only 100,000 tax collectors, and the blood
gone from all the turnips on top of it...no way to pay for any of
that, and govt with absolutely no recourse but to collapse.

it happens like clock work in world history.

thats how its playing out nation wide now...with the primary seizable
assets, homes goiing under water and not saleable in an economy
bankrupted by a net 70% tax rate (direct and hidden taxes).

***

. always it goes this way.. first decent, useful and valid govt
bloats, then becomes a bleed on the culture..

.both parents have to work to survive, they can't save, they can't
educate their kids... the kids grow up out of contol, poorly
educated....the work force is degraded.

production collapses.

govt bloat then goes vicious in an attempt to squeeze blood from the
destitute...

the ruthlessness takes out the rest of the productive culture.

At this viciously destructive stage good govt has turned to a
malignant cancer.

then sadly as we see all though history these are all thats left of
the breeding stock...cancer cells.... it turns into more cancer,
producing kiddies who do not produce either..

.always in these end stages you see this.

collapse happens at light speed after that... the US right now on that
threshold with time run out in many aspects.

***

Recent examples: the USSR, 1970's...just starting to recover,
Germany in the 1930's, thern ruthlessness, then a hundred mlllion
killed, then collpse, Italy in the same camp, much of tthe balkans,
Earlier it was France, search Bastile day on google, and find out what
happend to the civil servants heads and why... same thing happened iin
Romania 20 years ago.... and early in many nations all though history.

these are naturally occuring patterns, unstoppable apparently, driven
by human nature and the drive any organism has to grow and survive...
even govt agencies... the grow, then as will all aging things, distort
and corrupt.. then die.

The US is now, exactly and precicely on the same path, same
trajectory with the same drivers...and same inevitable outcome.

** the cure! oh yes... there IS in fact a cure...hope **

The cure. Cut govt by 80%, default on the bogus 150k pensions, reboot
voluntarily..

who did that? ??!

Argentina... in the last quarter century... they are booming now.

Thank you very much,

adendum

I post by my real name btw, and it is traceable on the web.. and yes
the IRS hates my guts and has tried to take retribution several times,
each time it gets worse for them....

historically as seen recently in the USSR and currently in china such
outspoken types as myself are imprisoned or shot... .. then the nation
collapses....

myself, Id rather be shot than see my nation ruined by non productive
scum, currently using tax payer money by the trillions to pay bonus's
to their criminal cohortsrunning the fraudulent bank loan and
derivitives schemes.

sorry, thats just how it is.

Phil scott

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 1:12 pm
From: Dan

Gunner Asch wrote:
> On Sat, 6 Dec 2008 22:17:59 -0500, "Dave" <noway1@noway2.not> wrote:
>
>> A rail system is a vacuum which sucks up all the commuters' money to
>> subsidize cheap tickets for the very few people who want to use it.
>>
>>> What if people could drive 5 miles to a depot and then ride
>>> in comfort to a central location?
>> The people would do exactly what they do now...they'd drive to work. Even
>> $5/gallon gas won't stop people from driving to work...what makes you think
>> you can build a rail system that people will actually want to ride? Because
>> virtually nobody wants to ride it now.
>
>
> I live 42 miles from the closest railroad. Doesnt seem like mass transit
> would do me much good.
>
> I do however work in So. Cal. As a service tech, I may hit 3-5 clients a
> day, many 40 miles apart or more
>
> Rail wont do me much good either.

And, of course, it's all about you...

Dan

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 1:20 pm
From: Steve Daniels

On Fri, 5 Dec 2008 15:15:00 -0800, against all advice, something
compelled Coffee's For Closers <USENET2008@THE-DOMAIN-IN.SIG>, to
say:

> The logic is to make a credit card transaction as easy as
> possible. So that you won't be discouraged by the small extra
> hassle of ID. The Visa and MasterCard associations want card
> usage to be as easy as cash, or even easier.

You know on the back, on that little strip where you're supposed
to put your signature? Mine says, "Ask for picture ID."

Real men don't text.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: UGG Boot
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/c261fce831dcf40e?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 1:59 pm
From: MSfortune@mcpmail.com

On Dec 7, 8:25 am, fdge...@126.com wrote:
> We supply UGG boots , please click it :
>
> http://www.nice110.com/Show.Asp?ClassId=188&id=547
>
> Top quality, lowest price, safely shipping, Perfectly after service
> and
> Good public praise. Paypal is accepted. In interested, please dont
> hesitate to contact with us.

Good public praise is so important and safely shipping is wonderful.
You wouldn't want someone dropping your boots and damaging them.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: 79% of GM owned by financial institutuions, they are pimping for a
bailout to protect their asses.
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/0c879ab252ece621?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 3:05 pm
From: wismel@yahoo.com

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/mh?s=GM

Oh, how they sing of the poor workers and a "devastated" economy.
Utter bullshit. In a bankruptcy those GM shares could go worthless.
This banker propaganda machine for a loan, bailout or whatever you
want to
call it, just buys them time to dump their shares.

ted

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 3:32 pm
From: hpope@lycos.com

On Dec 7, 4:05 pm, wis...@yahoo.com wrote:
> http://finance.yahoo.com/q/mh?s=GM
>
> Oh, how they sing of the poor workers and a "devastated" economy.
> Utter bullshit. In a bankruptcy those GM shares could go worthless.
> This banker propaganda machine for a loan, bailout or whatever you
> want to
> call it, just buys them time to dump their shares.
>
> ted

This bailout is the biggest con job since the attack on Iraq to
eliminate "weapons of
mass destruction.

Mitch

==============================================================================

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "misc.consumers.frugal-living"
group.

To post to this group, visit http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

To unsubscribe from this group, send email to misc.consumers.frugal-living+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com

To change the way you get mail from this group, visit:
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/subscribe?hl=en

To report abuse, send email explaining the problem to abuse@googlegroups.com

==============================================================================
Google Groups: http://groups.google.com/?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living - 26 new messages in 8 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

== 1 of 6 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 10:13 am
From: George

hallerb@aol.com wrote:
> big 3 saw customers wanted SUVs so they built them, gasoline cost
> skyrocketed, fiancials tanked SUV sales dried up. big 3 now on edge of
> bankruptcy.

Who is this "big 3"? by all accounts they should properly be referred to
as the "little 3" since they produce < 30% of the vehicles sold in the
US. Rick Wagoner notably seems to be the biggest problem. Ford said they
aren't actually in trouble. It would seem his departure would be best
for the the long term emergence of GM from bankruptcy. Chrysler is
another story since they are owned by private investors.

>
> congress should pass a 5 grand tax break for every new american built
> vehicle sold in the next 6 months.
>

Why? thats just like giving a drink to a drunk. The only thing that
might work is to use the bankruptcy laws that were designed exactly for
these scenarios. Given the complexity of their organizations they could
ask for special rules.

> this would help get the economy moving again
>
> although were about to be flooded with 4 grand cars from india, and 8
> grand cars from china
>
> big 3 will disappear once that happens just like US steel industry
> largely closed years ago.
>

The "old" US steel industry closed because they were in the same
situation as GM. They had extremely bad management and union contracts
that had extensive work rules and giveaways. There are now vibrant US
steel manufacturers such as Nucor and Worthington. Folks there
definitely don't work for walmart wages but they also don't get double
pay for a day if asked to do another job or 3 months pay if they file a
grievance that someone else pushed the button they were supposed to
push.

> US standard of living must drop a lot for our workers to compete

== 2 of 6 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 10:21 am
From: George

hal@nospam.com wrote:
> On Sun, 7 Dec 2008 03:09:48 -0800 (PST), Anonymous Infidel - the
> anti-political talking head <messiah2999@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>> is dead...Killed by Democrats who bashed our economy into submission
>
> idiot. Regulation is the responsibility of The Executive. It's the
> Republicans who pushed for deregulation, and it's deregulation that
> gave us this crisis. This is a Bush depression.

Then you might asked yourself who approved the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act
(hint, he was president in 1999) which repealed most of the banking
regulations that were put into effect after the last great depression.
That laid the groundwork for most of our current situation.

== 3 of 6 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 10:51 am
From: Vic Smith

On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 13:13:12 -0500, George <george@nospam.invalid>
wrote:

>hallerb@aol.com wrote:
>> big 3 saw customers wanted SUVs so they built them, gasoline cost
>> skyrocketed, fiancials tanked SUV sales dried up. big 3 now on edge of
>> bankruptcy.
>
>Who is this "big 3"? by all accounts they should properly be referred to
>as the "little 3" since they produce < 30% of the vehicles sold in the
>US.

Here's a reality check for you. You need it.

http://online.wsj.com/mdc/public/page/2_3022-autosales.html

--Vic

== 4 of 6 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 10:56 am
From: "Rod Speed"

David P. <imbibe@mindspring.com> wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote
>> hall...@aol.com wrote

>>> altho we're about to be flooded with 4 grand cars
>>> from india, and 8 grand cars from china

>> Not a chance on that first, you watch.

> http://auto.indiamart.com/cars/indica/index.html#xeta

> http://auto.indiamart.com/cars/hm-pushpak/

Taint gunna happen, you watch.

The Jugo was a complete flop too.

The american market just aint gunna buy cars like that, they have vast
numbers of viable used cars that are what that sort of buyer buys instead.

== 5 of 6 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 11:16 am
From: Seerialmom

On Dec 6, 4:58 pm, hp...@lycos.com wrote:
> On Dec 6, 12:41 pm, wis...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > For the next 6 months, at least, think about refraining from buying a
> > new vehicle. If yours totally fails buy a used car or truck. (By the
> > way, a new car is a crummy investment i.e. instant depreciation)
> > Or have yours repaired. The current cars and trucks can easily run
> > for 200,000 or more miles. This "holiday" will give us a chance to see
> > if the Big 3 can make satisfactory progress i.e. restructuring.
>
> > ted
>
> I have a hunch that most of those complaining about your suggestion
> are probably lucky
> to make 50K a year. Hence, that vehicle is important to their self-
> image.
>
> Mitch

I'm pretty sure if you were to poll those people buying or leasing
"new" cars you'd find the majority exceed the $50K mark. Most of
those are more concerned with a vehicle staying under warranty and not
having to bother with repair shops. Where your hunch comes into play
is when someone buys a car based on power/looks when they have a "good
enough" car already. Good example: 20 somethings buying a "new" Dodge
Charger when they have a decent running 92 Camry.

== 6 of 6 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 11:56 am
From: "Bob F"

"George" <george@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:ghh46i$oac$1@news.motzarella.org...
> hal@nospam.com wrote:
>> On Sun, 7 Dec 2008 03:09:48 -0800 (PST), Anonymous Infidel - the
>> anti-political talking head <messiah2999@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> is dead...Killed by Democrats who bashed our economy into submission
>>
>> idiot. Regulation is the responsibility of The Executive. It's the
>> Republicans who pushed for deregulation, and it's deregulation that
>> gave us this crisis. This is a Bush depression.
>
> Then you might asked yourself who approved the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act (hint,
> he was president in 1999) which repealed most of the banking regulations that
> were put into effect after the last great depression. That laid the groundwork
> for most of our current situation.

And who was it that passed it for him to approve?

== 1 of 7 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 10:18 am
From: John Galt

Kurt Ullman wrote:
> In article <mPR_k.310962$1p1.266527@en-nntp-08.dc1.easynews.com>,
> John Galt <kady101@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Kurt Ullman wrote:
>>> In article <hhP_k.383183$vK2.332366@en-nntp-03.dc1.easynews.com>,
>>> John Galt <kady101@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Yea, that's the other issue. Since the consolidation of private hospital
>>>> chains (you probably know this better than I do) floor nurse/patient
>>>> ratios have skyrocketed, making the job a crappy one. (Doesn't explain
>>>> why the schools are short on nurses, but the entire "job satisfaction"
>>>> thing is obviously playing in.
>>> It's got nothing to do with private hospital chains. Some of the
>>> hospitals run by the Sisters or other religious groups or other not for
>>> profit are the worst offenders. Has to do with making health care into a
>>> business. Has to do as much with reimbursement (specifically federal
>>> reimbursement since studies show MCare and MCaid ALWAYS pay less than
>>> the evil insurance companies for the same diagnosis) as anything one
>>> thing in this area.
>>> As with everything else it is multifactoral (for instance a lot of
>>> the stuff the Joint Commission requires us to do means we spend much
>>> more treating paper than patients), even to a certain amount turmoil
>>> brought about those within the profession.
>>> As an aside, the Joint Commission, I am convinced is set up to
>>> accomplish three goals (1). Kill a certain number of trees each year,
>>> (2). screw up healthcare productivity (3). annoy those on the front
>>> lines that actually have to do the work. It does a bang up job of that
>>> since no study in its entire history has ever linked Joint Commission
>>> accreditation with any quality, safety, or other metric.
>> We're not disagreeing on any point.
>>
>
> Other that the implication (and I apologize if I took it wrong)
> that the consolidation of private hospital chains had much to do with
> lousy nurse patient ratios. Haven't seen anything suggesting that for
> profit chains are any worse than the not-for-profits, religious run or
> even government hospitals.

I believe that the degredation of the patient/nurse ratio occurred
concurrent with the shift from indepedent to chain hospital systems
owned by hospital corporations. I intended no comparison to the not for
profits or any other. I have no doubt that if the religious or
governmetn hospitals saw that the chains were getting away with working
fewer nurses harder, they would follow suit.

== 2 of 7 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 10:24 am
From: John Galt

Lubow wrote:
>
> "John Galt" <kady101@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:LuF_k.382974$vK2.302392@en-nntp-03.dc1.easynews.com...
>> Lubow wrote:
>>>>
>>>> But, why would a retired engineer want to get up at 6AM and be
>>>> grading papers in front of the TV at night for 30K per year?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Thirty K per year? On which planet is that?
>>
>> Yours. The average teaching starting salary in the US is @ 32K. Look
>> at the NEA website -- one of the things they are pushing for is a
>> national minimum starting salary of 40K.
>
> I have read of teachers in the red states requiring food stamps to get
> by. Thanks for sharing that piece of info.

It has nothing to do with red/blue. Starting salary in Houston is 38K,
Dallas 37K, and Kansas City 36K, while they're under 32K in Philadelphia
and Chicago, and 34.5K in D.C. I suspect the beginning teacher in the
NYC Metro Area (42K) is a lot more likely to be on food stamps than the
starting teacher in Houston.

== 3 of 7 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 10:33 am
From: "Joy"

"John Galt" <kady101@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:nuI_k.392484$3I2.191356@en-nntp-02.dc1.easynews.com...
> patmpowers@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Dec 6, 7:34 pm, John Galt <kady...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> wis...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 5 Dec 2008 21:20:24 -0800 (PST),
>>>> obamao.sux.donki.dix...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>> With the federal government reporting another giant loss of jobs for
>>>>> November, isn't it time to stop the massive importation of foreign
>>>>> workers?
>>>>> http://www.numbersusa.com/content/nusablog/beckr/december-5-2008/5330...
>>>> Does anyone still support this frigging government"
>>>> ted
>>> The article, quite unfortunately, says nothing about what the imported
>>> workers do. For example, there is a huge mismatch in the number of RN
>>> jobs in this country vs the number of RNs available to fill them. (It
>>> also uses the term "the feds imported" when in fact the "feds" don't
>>> import anybody; they simply provide authorization for other employers to
>>> recruit them.)
>>>
>>> You can be losing jobs at whatever rate you like, but if there's not
>>> enough RNs coming out of nursing schools to fill the openings, you
>>> either bring them in from elsewhere or go without. You don't want people
>>> who don't know what the hell they're doing administering meds to
>>> patients.
>>
>> According to a friend in the health care business, the reason they
>> can't get enough health care workers is that the wages are too low.
>> Think $8 hour. Instead workers are being imported from overseas,
>> particularly the Philippines, and they may not provide good care.
>
> I can tell you that in Houston, the starting wage for an RN is about 50K -
> 60K , and there's not enough to go around. Nursing wages are regional, and
> your part of the country may differ. But down here, they are *not* being
> brought to save money -- they're being brought because there's not enough
> coming out of the nursing schools to meet demand.

This is likely to only get worse, unfortunately. Many schools that offer
nursing degrees are financially strapped, and are reducing the number of
students they accept into these programs as a cost-cutting move (even though
the number of students *applying* to nursing school may be increasing). So,
to some degree, the shortage of nurses has nothing to do with demand or with
payscale or even working conditions - it has to do with the way we fund our
colleges and universities:

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/2008/12/07/20081207nursing1207.html
http://media.www.dailyiowan.com/media/storage/paper599/news/2008/04/04/Metro/Nursing.Needs.Teachers-3303960.shtml

== 4 of 7 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 10:43 am
From: suds macheath

clams_casino wrote:
> suds macheath wrote:
>
>> clams_casino wrote:
>>
>>> John Galt wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> But, why would a retired engineer want to get up at 6AM and be
>>>> grading papers in front of the TV at night for 30K per year?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> What teacher gets $30k /yr other than perhaps newly hired, just out
>>> of college? Here, they are paid an AVERAGE of $60k
>>
>>
>> ----How many of those have doctorates or masters degrees, and have
>> been teaching for 20+ years? All of them?
>
>
> That's the average. Those with masters tend to be paid $75k and up.
> I'm not too sure many at the elementary / Jr high / High school level
> have doctorates.
>
> http://cspf.wordpress.com/2007/02/07/questioning-teacher-salaries-2/ is
> a typical RI situation. Granted, teachers put in much over time, but
> but salary position doesn't? I, for example, typically worked an
> extra 8-12 hrs/ week (no overtime). Most I know in the corporate world
> do / did similar overtime (without additional pay).
>
>
>>
>> plus very generous
>>
>>> benefits benefits with very generous holiday, sick time and vacation
>>> time that no engineer could ever expect to see.
>>
>>
>> ---I'm sure benefits at large corporations are comparable....
>>
>>
>>
>>
> What corporation provides 12 weeks vacation per year?

---Teacher's don't get paid through the summer months....they are 10
month employees...you have to work for a while to save up 60 vacation
days.....and here they are limited to 60 days....

Other than UAW
> and government employees, I'm not aware of many paying full (or even
> 90%) health coverage.

----But most have health care benefits for salaried employees, do they not?

== 5 of 7 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 11:13 am
From: George

In my state that would be teachers. In my state the most powerful labor
union is the PSEA which represents the public school teachers.

Most of my jobs have been salaried and I have a comparable eduction to a
teacher. I have a number of friends and relatives who are teachers.

A typical teacher works six hours/day here. It is pretty unusual for
them to take work home since they have a 1 hour study period where they
can also do grading. If a new teacher works harder they are quietly
pulled and the side and told to cut it out and follow whatever is in the
workbooks. Their union contracts require that at least two teachers must
be present for any event be it a bake sale or sporting competition. They
get an additional $150 each for up to 2 hours for this.

I, for example, typically worked an
> extra 8-12 hrs/ week (no overtime). Most I know in the corporate world
> do / did similar overtime (without additional pay).
>
Mr too, that isn't unusual at all. I remember one year where I worked
every Saturday and Sunday besides the 10 hour weekdays without
additional pay.

>
>>
>> plus very generous
>>
>>> benefits benefits with very generous holiday, sick time and vacation
>>> time that no engineer could ever expect to see.
>>
>>
>> ---I'm sure benefits at large corporations are comparable....
>>
>>
>>
>>
> What corporation provides 12 weeks vacation per year? Other than UAW
> and government employees, I'm not aware of many paying full (or even
> 90%) health coverage.

In PA the union teachers have an ultra deluxe Blue Cross health plan
that was crafted especially just for them. There is zero possibility for
out of pocket expense. This costs us over $1,800/month for each teacher.
And as you stated they get 12 weeks paid vacation, all holidays and if
there is a hint of snow they can just hit the snooze button because a
snow day will be called.

== 6 of 7 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 11:27 am
From: George

suds macheath wrote:
> clams_casino wrote:
>> suds macheath wrote:
>>
>>> clams_casino wrote:
>>>
>>>> John Galt wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> But, why would a retired engineer want to get up at 6AM and be
>>>>> grading papers in front of the TV at night for 30K per year?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What teacher gets $30k /yr other than perhaps newly hired, just out
>>>> of college? Here, they are paid an AVERAGE of $60k
>>>
>>>
>>> ----How many of those have doctorates or masters degrees, and have
>>> been teaching for 20+ years? All of them?
>>
>>
>> That's the average. Those with masters tend to be paid $75k and
>> up. I'm not too sure many at the elementary / Jr high / High school
>> level have doctorates.
>>
>> http://cspf.wordpress.com/2007/02/07/questioning-teacher-salaries-2/
>> is a typical RI situation. Granted, teachers put in much over time,
>> but but salary position doesn't? I, for example, typically worked
>> an extra 8-12 hrs/ week (no overtime). Most I know in the corporate
>> world do / did similar overtime (without additional pay).
>>
>>
>>>
>>> plus very generous
>>>
>>>> benefits benefits with very generous holiday, sick time and vacation
>>>> time that no engineer could ever expect to see.
>>>
>>>
>>> ---I'm sure benefits at large corporations are comparable....
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> What corporation provides 12 weeks vacation per year?
>
> ---Teacher's don't get paid through the summer months....they are 10
> month employees...you have to work for a while to save up 60 vacation
> days.....and here they are limited to 60 days....

Public school teachers salaries in PA are annual. They can choose to be
paid either as weekly or divided by the number of weeks of the school
session.

>
> Other than UAW
>> and government employees, I'm not aware of many paying full (or even
>> 90%) health coverage.
>
> ----But most have health care benefits for salaried employees, do they not?

== 7 of 7 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 11:48 am
From: "Lubow"

>
> It has nothing to do with red/blue. Starting salary in Houston is 38K, Dallas
> 37K, and Kansas City 36K, while they're under 32K in Philadelphia and Chicago,
> and 34.5K in D.C. I suspect the beginning teacher in the NYC Metro Area (42K)
> is a lot more likely to be on food stamps than the starting teacher in
> Houston.

You're looking at all teachers, not just the tenured teachers. Big difference.
Think of it as what NFL rookies get compared to what the vets get for doing
essentially the same work.

Anyway, I'm in the NY metro area and the biggest problem facing our school
district is the amount of space allocated to parking. It seems the teachers do
not want cars to either side of their Lexuses or Beemers.

== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 10:59 am
From: sarge137

On Dec 7, 7:24 am, "hall...@aol.com" <hall...@aol.com> wrote:
> > > As to using credit cards, I'll still use mine whenever possible to
> > > get that reward credit. My debit card pays zilch.
>
> > I agree. I use my Visa card as much as possible. I pay it off in full
> > each month and I collect points toward air mileage. It also lets me
> > avoid the need to carry around as much cash with me, which makes it less
> > likely that I will be robbed of my money.
>
> after doing a multi year look at reward cards I decided they arent
> worth the bother.

Same here. With my clean as a whistle credit reports, and near max
FICO scores, pretty much every credit card in the country has
solicited me over the years, multiple times. I've carefully reviewed
every "reward" program. Haven't seen one yet that would prompt me to
change from the card I've been carrying since the early 70s. I see
claims all the time that people net hundreds of dollars a year in
rewards payments. Frankly, I don't believe them. I move thousands of
dollars a year through my credit card account, and haven't found one
yet that would NET me that much.

If anyone knows of a reward program with ALL of the following criteria
please post a link. I'd love to see it:

1. No annual fee.
2. Substantial credit line (at least 15K)
3. Full 30 day grace period from date of transaction.
4. No minimum average balance.
5. Fix APR less than 8%.
6. Includes every penny of all transactions, not just retail
purchases.
7. Pays rewards by check at least semi-annually.

> plus a robber has no idea how much money your carrying.

That's true, but irrelevant to whether or not you get targeted by a
bad guy. You should never carry more cash than you can afford to lose
or have stolen. But, whether thats $10 or $1,000, you'll get robbed
if you're in the wrong place, at the wrong time, among the wrong
people, no matter what's in your pockets. Common sense will keep you
out of that situation 99% of the time.

> I have heard of people with no cash getting robbed, and beat up
> because thewy had no cash

== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 11:34 am
From: Vic Smith

On Sun, 7 Dec 2008 10:59:34 -0800 (PST), sarge137
<rbooth9858@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On Dec 7, 7:24 am, "hall...@aol.com" <hall...@aol.com> wrote:
>> > > As to using credit cards, I'll still use mine whenever possible to
>> > > get that reward credit. My debit card pays zilch.
>>
>> > I agree. I use my Visa card as much as possible. I pay it off in full
>> > each month and I collect points toward air mileage. It also lets me
>> > avoid the need to carry around as much cash with me, which makes it less
>> > likely that I will be robbed of my money.
>>
>> after doing a multi year look at reward cards I decided they arent
>> worth the bother.
>
>Same here. With my clean as a whistle credit reports, and near max
>FICO scores, pretty much every credit card in the country has
>solicited me over the years, multiple times. I've carefully reviewed
>every "reward" program. Haven't seen one yet that would prompt me to
>change from the card I've been carrying since the early 70s. I see
>claims all the time that people net hundreds of dollars a year in
>rewards payments. Frankly, I don't believe them. I move thousands of
>dollars a year through my credit card account, and haven't found one
>yet that would NET me that much.
>
>If anyone knows of a reward program with ALL of the following criteria
>please post a link. I'd love to see it:
>
>1. No annual fee.
>2. Substantial credit line (at least 15K)
>3. Full 30 day grace period from date of transaction.
>4. No minimum average balance.
>5. Fix APR less than 8%.
>6. Includes every penny of all transactions, not just retail
>purchases.
>7. Pays rewards by check at least semi-annually.
>
I pretty much felt like you did, mostly because I was too lazy to
switch the card I've been using for many years.
I think I entertained getting a CitiBank card a couple years ago, but
said nah.
Anyway, Chase started their Freedom card a while back, and I bank and
CC with them, so I had them send me that card. That was May.
Just deposited a $200 check from the rewards, and there's $45 waiting.
Have to hit $50 for them to cut a check.
So that was free money. I figure it'll end up close to $300 for the 8
months this year I've had it.
You can look up the details yourself because I hate reading that crap,
but I can tell you it meets or exceeds all your criteria except APR.
Don't know what the APR is, because it never affects me.

--Vic

== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 11:58 am
From: krw

In article <otR_k.16779$no6.8152@newsfe04.iad>,
PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com says...
> hallerb@aol.com wrote:
>
> >after doing a multi year look at reward cards I decided they arent
> >worth the bother.
> >
> >
> >
>
> Situations differ, but I'm very pleased with the two $200 refund checks
> I received from my Chase Freedom card this year - simply realized by
> paying via cc vs. cash..

I've earned over $1000 in kickbacks from my AmEx and Chase BP cards
over the last year and I don't use the CC for everything. If the OP
thinks a free grand in the pocket (it's most of a table saw for me)
isn't worth it, fine. Most wouldn't leave a grand in unmarked $20s
on the sidewalk though.

--
Keith

== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 12:21 pm
From: sarge137

On Dec 7, 12:34 pm, Vic Smith <thismailautodele...@comcast.net> wrote:
> On Sun, 7 Dec 2008 10:59:34 -0800 (PST), sarge137
>
>
>
> <rbooth9...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >On Dec 7, 7:24 am, "hall...@aol.com" <hall...@aol.com> wrote:
> >> > > As to using credit cards, I'll still use mine whenever possible to
> >> > > get that reward credit. My debit card pays zilch.
>
> >> > I agree. I use my Visa card as much as possible. I pay it off in full
> >> > each month and I collect points toward air mileage. It also lets me
> >> > avoid the need to carry around as much cash with me, which makes it less
> >> > likely that I will be robbed of my money.
>
> >> after doing a multi year look at reward cards I decided they arent
> >> worth the bother.
>
> >Same here. With my clean as a whistle credit reports, and near max
> >FICO scores, pretty much every credit card in the country has
> >solicited me over the years, multiple times. I've carefully reviewed
> >every "reward" program. Haven't seen one yet that would prompt me to
> >change from the card I've been carrying since the early 70s. I see
> >claims all the time that people net hundreds of dollars a year in
> >rewards payments. Frankly, I don't believe them. I move thousands of
> >dollars a year through my credit card account, and haven't found one
> >yet that would NET me that much.
>
> >If anyone knows of a reward program with ALL of the following criteria
> >please post a link. I'd love to see it:
>
> >1. No annual fee.
> >2. Substantial credit line (at least 15K)
> >3. Full 30 day grace period from date of transaction.
> >4. No minimum average balance.
> >5. Fix APR less than 8%.
> >6. Includes every penny of all transactions, not just retail
> >purchases.
> >7. Pays rewards by check at least semi-annually.
>
> I pretty much felt like you did, mostly because I was too lazy to
> switch the card I've been using for many years.
> I think I entertained getting a CitiBank card a couple years ago, but
> said nah.
> Anyway, Chase started their Freedom card a while back, and I bank and
> CC with them, so I had them send me that card. That was May.
> Just deposited a $200 check from the rewards, and there's $45 waiting.
> Have to hit $50 for them to cut a check.
> So that was free money. I figure it'll end up close to $300 for the 8
> months this year I've had it.
> You can look up the details yourself because I hate reading that crap,
> but I can tell you it meets or exceeds all your criteria except APR.
> Don't know what the APR is, because it never affects me.
>
> --Vic

I'll give'em a look - thanks for the info.

The interest rate doesn't effect me directly either. Haven't paid any
in years. But it's a point of principal. High volume customers, on
whom they make major transaction fees, should be charged double
digital interest if they have to let a balance ride for a short time.

== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 12:22 pm
From: sarge137

I'll give'em a look - thanks for the info.

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 11:00 am
From: Curly Surmudgeon

On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 01:56:48 -0800, Gunner Asch wrote:

> On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 00:57:01 -0500, Jeffrey Turner <jturner@localnet.com>
> wrote:
>
>>Dave wrote:
>>>> Not to mention that all that "unskilled labor" with a few more bucks
>>>> in their pockets would buy more stuff, which would generate private
>>>> sector jobs making and selling that stuff. Dave might want to learn
>>>> something about the multiplier effect.
>>>>
>>>> --Jeff
>>>
>>> Jeff - Marxism does not work. -Dave
>>
>>Dave,
>>
>>Your brain doesn't work, apparently. If you've got economic facts to
>>argue with, show 'em. Or shut up and learn.
>>
>>--Jeff
>
>
> Deff appears to be in denial.

That's not much of an argument, still claiming that the economy is just
peachy?

--
Regards, Curly
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Vote Republican, Suffering Builds Character
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 11:18 am
From: Gunner Asch

On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 09:51:54 -0500, clams_casino
<PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:

>Dave wrote:
>
>>"clams_casino" <PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote in message
>>news:LZ9_k.14392$M33.1108@newsfe03.iad...
>>
>>
>>>Dave wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>Now I'm really confused. You condemn taxes, yet you support Palin
>>>>>who's sole means to govern is by taxing oil company profits and
>>>>>redistributing the bounty as welfare checks to all AK residents.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>Yes, you are confused. AK has a unique arrangement with the oil
>>>>
>>>>
>>companies.
>>
>>
>>>>It started probably before Sarah was even born. But I'd have to
>>>>double-check that, to confirm that Sarah wasn't born yet. -Dave
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>So which is it? Do you believe government should balance it's books
>>>by taxing companies to the maximum (i.e.. Palin's method of taxing oil
>>>company profits)? Or reducing taxes on corporations?
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Neither. Again, Palin does not tax oil company profits. And AGAIN, Alaska
>>has a unique arrangement with the oil companies that started before Sarah
>>Palin was born. -Dave
>>
>>
>>
>>
>OK - You answered it to my satisfaction. You are totally out of touch
>with reality. Leave a closing comment to end your nonsense.

My irony meter just exploded.

"They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist..."
Maj. Gen. John Sedgewick, killed by a sniper in 1864 at the battle of Spotsylvania

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 11:48 am
From: "Dave"

> > It will cost my family at least $23,000 in extra (note EXTRA) taxes.
How
> > much will it cost your family?
> >
> > That much is DONE already. That was long before all these other bailout
> > proposals, currently totalling about 8 Trillion (borrowed principle
amount),
> > last I heard. It seems to be increasing by hundreds of billions a week
> > though. How much will your family have to pay for say, 10 trillion
> > principle, which will cost about 20 trillion or more with interest?
HAVE
> > YOU DONE THE MATH???????????????????????????????????????????? -Dave
>
> Oscar Wilde said a cynic is someone who knows the price of everything
> and the value of nothing. That mantle has been passed to the
> mouth-breathing conservatroids.
>
> --Jeff
>

OK, tell me then...how much value is your family going to get from the
~$300K in EXTRA taxes that your government is going to assess to your
family, with your apparent blessing? -Dave

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Another good weekend of cheap finds
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/9e4b88c1d8c6eb66?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 11:20 am
From: Seerialmom

On Dec 7, 7:50 am, MSfort...@mcpmail.com wrote:
> On Dec 7, 10:20 am, Seerialmom <seerial...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Yesterday was great! In the local paper they had another $20 off $100
> > purchase at Raley's (chain in most of Calif.). Figured I'd go early
> > today while it's quiet; however anything I get must be 1. needed and
> > 2. a better price than I can get elsewhere. Not as easy since they
> > aren't a discount store. But combining loss leaders and coupons
> > should work.
>
> > The other big score of the day was a Dyson vacuum in perfectly good
> > working condition I found at the Goodwill for....drumroll please....
> > $25! Sweet. I tested it there (it had dirt in the canister which I
> > dumped and revacuumed up). My daughter was often borrowing mine so my
> > plan as to give this one to her :)
>
> Whatever floats your boat I guess. I don't see the savings. I never
> purchased a vacuum in my life. I use a bag-less Bissell and have two
> spare Fantoms in the basement. People throw out vacuums all the time
> that only need a belt or cleaning. My brother often makes the
> statement, "If you don't go to the store, you ain't spending money." I
> receive coupons and sale notices all the time. Can I do without? Yes.

Sure free would have been better on the Dyson. But considering the
normal retail price and how well they work (in spite of what Consumer
Reports says), it was worth it. I've also resurrected "dead" vacuums
in the past; a Dirt Devil was one of my better finds. And I won't use
one of those coupons unless I had planned on patronizing the store
already :)

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 11:41 am
From: "Dave"

> >
> > Different case:
> > http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2008/12/obama-birth-cer.html
>
> OK, I found it. No. 08A407. But this suit accepts that Obama was born in
> the USA and was an American citizen at birth.

And? Again, a citizen is not eligible to be President. -Dave

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 12:05 pm
From: "AllEmailDeletedImmediately"

"Dave" <noway1@noway2.not> wrote in message
news:ghh8se$c4q$1@news.motzarella.org...
>
>> >
>> > Different case:
>> > http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2008/12/obama-birth-cer.html
>>
>> OK, I found it. No. 08A407. But this suit accepts that Obama was born in
>> the USA and was an American citizen at birth.
>
> And? Again, a citizen is not eligible to be President. -Dave
>
correct. american citizenship does not automatically constitutionally
qualify one to be prez

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Hello Everyone
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/aadd28a9b8682e15?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 11:47 am
From: "AFA"

Welcome here Pete!!

"Seerialmom" <seerialmom@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:cf745a98-a6c2-4845-818e-1737cf1072fe@k24g2000pri.googlegroups.com:

> On Dec 7, 2:30 am, Salford1 <vectisp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > My name's Pete (from UK). Just joined the group & thought i'd
> > introduce myself.
>
>
> Sorry no one replied; it appears they're too busy trading barbs about
> off topic subjects and rants about the world going to hell in a hand
> basket. However, some of us do still try to post and reply to things
> related to frugal living like how to save money on energy costs or hot
> deals.
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.15/1834 - Release Date: 12/6/2008 4:55 PM

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Kennedy, Dodd, all the old farts sat around when our steel and
electronics business went offshore. Now they want to "save" the Big 3!
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/ae7ede76c46e3f5b?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 11:59 am
From: wismel@yahoo.com

On Sun, 7 Dec 2008 11:43:42 -0800 (PST), hpope@lycos.com wrote:

>Oh, my how they scramble. Topping it off is the lisping Barney Frank
>demanding support for Detroit. I recall when our steel mills were
>working, I recall ships being launched, I recall American made TV
>sets. So fuck the Wall Street maggots and those Chamber of Commerce
>whores. Bring on that Chinese 4dr mid-size fuel effiicient vehicle
>with all the bells and whistles for $12,000.00!
>
>mitch

The proposed "bailout or loan" is doomed to failure. Watch Detroit
come back for more claiming that the initial loans will be lost if
more public monies are not forthcoming. I say let the system work.
Bankruptacy should be an orderly process. From a practical standpoint
just buy American-made Hondas and Toyotas! And you are so right
about the banker-class and outsources American jobs. Let the games
begin!!!!

ted

==============================================================================

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "misc.consumers.frugal-living"
group.

To post to this group, visit http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

To unsubscribe from this group, send email to misc.consumers.frugal-living+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com

To change the way you get mail from this group, visit:
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/subscribe?hl=en

To report abuse, send email explaining the problem to abuse@googlegroups.com

==============================================================================
Google Groups: http://groups.google.com/?hl=en

Frugal Living

Blog Archive

Sunday, December 7, 2008

misc.consumers.frugal-living - 25 new messages in 7 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living - 24 new messages in 8 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living - 26 new messages in 8 topics - digest