Frugal Living: misc.consumers.frugal-living - 26 new messages in 8 topics

Sunday, December 7, 2008

misc.consumers.frugal-living - 26 new messages in 8 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Why not a holiday from auto buying?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/9e36c73bdf3daf50?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 6 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 10:13 am
From: George

hallerb@aol.com wrote:
> big 3 saw customers wanted SUVs so they built them, gasoline cost
> skyrocketed, fiancials tanked SUV sales dried up. big 3 now on edge of
> bankruptcy.

Who is this "big 3"? by all accounts they should properly be referred to
as the "little 3" since they produce < 30% of the vehicles sold in the
US. Rick Wagoner notably seems to be the biggest problem. Ford said they
aren't actually in trouble. It would seem his departure would be best
for the the long term emergence of GM from bankruptcy. Chrysler is
another story since they are owned by private investors.

>
> congress should pass a 5 grand tax break for every new american built
> vehicle sold in the next 6 months.
>

Why? thats just like giving a drink to a drunk. The only thing that
might work is to use the bankruptcy laws that were designed exactly for
these scenarios. Given the complexity of their organizations they could
ask for special rules.

> this would help get the economy moving again
>
> although were about to be flooded with 4 grand cars from india, and 8
> grand cars from china
>
> big 3 will disappear once that happens just like US steel industry
> largely closed years ago.
>

The "old" US steel industry closed because they were in the same
situation as GM. They had extremely bad management and union contracts
that had extensive work rules and giveaways. There are now vibrant US
steel manufacturers such as Nucor and Worthington. Folks there
definitely don't work for walmart wages but they also don't get double
pay for a day if asked to do another job or 3 months pay if they file a
grievance that someone else pushed the button they were supposed to
push.

> US standard of living must drop a lot for our workers to compete

== 2 of 6 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 10:21 am
From: George

hal@nospam.com wrote:
> On Sun, 7 Dec 2008 03:09:48 -0800 (PST), Anonymous Infidel - the
> anti-political talking head <messiah2999@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>> is dead...Killed by Democrats who bashed our economy into submission
>
> idiot. Regulation is the responsibility of The Executive. It's the
> Republicans who pushed for deregulation, and it's deregulation that
> gave us this crisis. This is a Bush depression.

Then you might asked yourself who approved the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act
(hint, he was president in 1999) which repealed most of the banking
regulations that were put into effect after the last great depression.
That laid the groundwork for most of our current situation.

== 3 of 6 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 10:51 am
From: Vic Smith

On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 13:13:12 -0500, George <george@nospam.invalid>
wrote:

>hallerb@aol.com wrote:
>> big 3 saw customers wanted SUVs so they built them, gasoline cost
>> skyrocketed, fiancials tanked SUV sales dried up. big 3 now on edge of
>> bankruptcy.
>
>Who is this "big 3"? by all accounts they should properly be referred to
>as the "little 3" since they produce < 30% of the vehicles sold in the
>US.

Here's a reality check for you. You need it.

http://online.wsj.com/mdc/public/page/2_3022-autosales.html

--Vic

== 4 of 6 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 10:56 am
From: "Rod Speed"

David P. <imbibe@mindspring.com> wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote
>> hall...@aol.com wrote

>>> altho we're about to be flooded with 4 grand cars
>>> from india, and 8 grand cars from china

>> Not a chance on that first, you watch.

> http://auto.indiamart.com/cars/indica/index.html#xeta

> http://auto.indiamart.com/cars/hm-pushpak/

Taint gunna happen, you watch.

The Jugo was a complete flop too.

The american market just aint gunna buy cars like that, they have vast
numbers of viable used cars that are what that sort of buyer buys instead.

== 5 of 6 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 11:16 am
From: Seerialmom

On Dec 6, 4:58 pm, hp...@lycos.com wrote:
> On Dec 6, 12:41 pm, wis...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > For the next 6 months, at least, think about refraining from buying a
> > new vehicle. If yours totally fails buy a used car or truck. (By the
> > way, a new car is a crummy investment i.e. instant depreciation)
> > Or have yours repaired. The current cars and trucks can easily run
> > for 200,000 or more miles. This "holiday" will give us a chance to see
> > if the Big 3 can make satisfactory progress i.e. restructuring.
>
> > ted
>
> I have a hunch that most of those complaining about your suggestion
> are probably lucky
> to make 50K a year. Hence, that vehicle is important to their self-
> image.
>
> Mitch

I'm pretty sure if you were to poll those people buying or leasing
"new" cars you'd find the majority exceed the $50K mark. Most of
those are more concerned with a vehicle staying under warranty and not
having to bother with repair shops. Where your hunch comes into play
is when someone buys a car based on power/looks when they have a "good
enough" car already. Good example: 20 somethings buying a "new" Dodge
Charger when they have a decent running 92 Camry.

== 6 of 6 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 11:56 am
From: "Bob F"

"George" <george@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:ghh46i$oac$1@news.motzarella.org...
> hal@nospam.com wrote:
>> On Sun, 7 Dec 2008 03:09:48 -0800 (PST), Anonymous Infidel - the
>> anti-political talking head <messiah2999@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> is dead...Killed by Democrats who bashed our economy into submission
>>
>> idiot. Regulation is the responsibility of The Executive. It's the
>> Republicans who pushed for deregulation, and it's deregulation that
>> gave us this crisis. This is a Bush depression.
>
> Then you might asked yourself who approved the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act (hint,
> he was president in 1999) which repealed most of the banking regulations that
> were put into effect after the last great depression. That laid the groundwork
> for most of our current situation.

And who was it that passed it for him to approve?

==============================================================================
TOPIC: 533,000 Jobs Lost While Feds Import 140,000 Foreign Workers!
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/a1526898a9ebc1d2?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 7 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 10:18 am
From: John Galt

Kurt Ullman wrote:
> In article <mPR_k.310962$1p1.266527@en-nntp-08.dc1.easynews.com>,
> John Galt <kady101@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Kurt Ullman wrote:
>>> In article <hhP_k.383183$vK2.332366@en-nntp-03.dc1.easynews.com>,
>>> John Galt <kady101@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Yea, that's the other issue. Since the consolidation of private hospital
>>>> chains (you probably know this better than I do) floor nurse/patient
>>>> ratios have skyrocketed, making the job a crappy one. (Doesn't explain
>>>> why the schools are short on nurses, but the entire "job satisfaction"
>>>> thing is obviously playing in.
>>> It's got nothing to do with private hospital chains. Some of the
>>> hospitals run by the Sisters or other religious groups or other not for
>>> profit are the worst offenders. Has to do with making health care into a
>>> business. Has to do as much with reimbursement (specifically federal
>>> reimbursement since studies show MCare and MCaid ALWAYS pay less than
>>> the evil insurance companies for the same diagnosis) as anything one
>>> thing in this area.
>>> As with everything else it is multifactoral (for instance a lot of
>>> the stuff the Joint Commission requires us to do means we spend much
>>> more treating paper than patients), even to a certain amount turmoil
>>> brought about those within the profession.
>>> As an aside, the Joint Commission, I am convinced is set up to
>>> accomplish three goals (1). Kill a certain number of trees each year,
>>> (2). screw up healthcare productivity (3). annoy those on the front
>>> lines that actually have to do the work. It does a bang up job of that
>>> since no study in its entire history has ever linked Joint Commission
>>> accreditation with any quality, safety, or other metric.
>> We're not disagreeing on any point.
>>
>
> Other that the implication (and I apologize if I took it wrong)
> that the consolidation of private hospital chains had much to do with
> lousy nurse patient ratios. Haven't seen anything suggesting that for
> profit chains are any worse than the not-for-profits, religious run or
> even government hospitals.

I believe that the degredation of the patient/nurse ratio occurred
concurrent with the shift from indepedent to chain hospital systems
owned by hospital corporations. I intended no comparison to the not for
profits or any other. I have no doubt that if the religious or
governmetn hospitals saw that the chains were getting away with working
fewer nurses harder, they would follow suit.

== 2 of 7 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 10:24 am
From: John Galt

Lubow wrote:
>
> "John Galt" <kady101@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:LuF_k.382974$vK2.302392@en-nntp-03.dc1.easynews.com...
>> Lubow wrote:
>>>>
>>>> But, why would a retired engineer want to get up at 6AM and be
>>>> grading papers in front of the TV at night for 30K per year?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Thirty K per year? On which planet is that?
>>
>> Yours. The average teaching starting salary in the US is @ 32K. Look
>> at the NEA website -- one of the things they are pushing for is a
>> national minimum starting salary of 40K.
>
> I have read of teachers in the red states requiring food stamps to get
> by. Thanks for sharing that piece of info.

It has nothing to do with red/blue. Starting salary in Houston is 38K,
Dallas 37K, and Kansas City 36K, while they're under 32K in Philadelphia
and Chicago, and 34.5K in D.C. I suspect the beginning teacher in the
NYC Metro Area (42K) is a lot more likely to be on food stamps than the
starting teacher in Houston.

== 3 of 7 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 10:33 am
From: "Joy"

"John Galt" <kady101@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:nuI_k.392484$3I2.191356@en-nntp-02.dc1.easynews.com...
> patmpowers@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Dec 6, 7:34 pm, John Galt <kady...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> wis...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 5 Dec 2008 21:20:24 -0800 (PST),
>>>> obamao.sux.donki.dix...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>> With the federal government reporting another giant loss of jobs for
>>>>> November, isn't it time to stop the massive importation of foreign
>>>>> workers?
>>>>> http://www.numbersusa.com/content/nusablog/beckr/december-5-2008/5330...
>>>> Does anyone still support this frigging government"
>>>> ted
>>> The article, quite unfortunately, says nothing about what the imported
>>> workers do. For example, there is a huge mismatch in the number of RN
>>> jobs in this country vs the number of RNs available to fill them. (It
>>> also uses the term "the feds imported" when in fact the "feds" don't
>>> import anybody; they simply provide authorization for other employers to
>>> recruit them.)
>>>
>>> You can be losing jobs at whatever rate you like, but if there's not
>>> enough RNs coming out of nursing schools to fill the openings, you
>>> either bring them in from elsewhere or go without. You don't want people
>>> who don't know what the hell they're doing administering meds to
>>> patients.
>>
>> According to a friend in the health care business, the reason they
>> can't get enough health care workers is that the wages are too low.
>> Think $8 hour. Instead workers are being imported from overseas,
>> particularly the Philippines, and they may not provide good care.
>
> I can tell you that in Houston, the starting wage for an RN is about 50K -
> 60K , and there's not enough to go around. Nursing wages are regional, and
> your part of the country may differ. But down here, they are *not* being
> brought to save money -- they're being brought because there's not enough
> coming out of the nursing schools to meet demand.

This is likely to only get worse, unfortunately. Many schools that offer
nursing degrees are financially strapped, and are reducing the number of
students they accept into these programs as a cost-cutting move (even though
the number of students *applying* to nursing school may be increasing). So,
to some degree, the shortage of nurses has nothing to do with demand or with
payscale or even working conditions - it has to do with the way we fund our
colleges and universities:

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/2008/12/07/20081207nursing1207.html
http://media.www.dailyiowan.com/media/storage/paper599/news/2008/04/04/Metro/Nursing.Needs.Teachers-3303960.shtml

== 4 of 7 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 10:43 am
From: suds macheath

clams_casino wrote:
> suds macheath wrote:
>
>> clams_casino wrote:
>>
>>> John Galt wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> But, why would a retired engineer want to get up at 6AM and be
>>>> grading papers in front of the TV at night for 30K per year?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> What teacher gets $30k /yr other than perhaps newly hired, just out
>>> of college? Here, they are paid an AVERAGE of $60k
>>
>>
>> ----How many of those have doctorates or masters degrees, and have
>> been teaching for 20+ years? All of them?
>
>
> That's the average. Those with masters tend to be paid $75k and up.
> I'm not too sure many at the elementary / Jr high / High school level
> have doctorates.
>
> http://cspf.wordpress.com/2007/02/07/questioning-teacher-salaries-2/ is
> a typical RI situation. Granted, teachers put in much over time, but
> but salary position doesn't? I, for example, typically worked an
> extra 8-12 hrs/ week (no overtime). Most I know in the corporate world
> do / did similar overtime (without additional pay).
>
>
>>
>> plus very generous
>>
>>> benefits benefits with very generous holiday, sick time and vacation
>>> time that no engineer could ever expect to see.
>>
>>
>> ---I'm sure benefits at large corporations are comparable....
>>
>>
>>
>>
> What corporation provides 12 weeks vacation per year?

---Teacher's don't get paid through the summer months....they are 10
month employees...you have to work for a while to save up 60 vacation
days.....and here they are limited to 60 days....

Other than UAW
> and government employees, I'm not aware of many paying full (or even
> 90%) health coverage.

----But most have health care benefits for salaried employees, do they not?

== 5 of 7 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 11:13 am
From: George

In my state that would be teachers. In my state the most powerful labor
union is the PSEA which represents the public school teachers.

Most of my jobs have been salaried and I have a comparable eduction to a
teacher. I have a number of friends and relatives who are teachers.

A typical teacher works six hours/day here. It is pretty unusual for
them to take work home since they have a 1 hour study period where they
can also do grading. If a new teacher works harder they are quietly
pulled and the side and told to cut it out and follow whatever is in the
workbooks. Their union contracts require that at least two teachers must
be present for any event be it a bake sale or sporting competition. They
get an additional $150 each for up to 2 hours for this.

I, for example, typically worked an
> extra 8-12 hrs/ week (no overtime). Most I know in the corporate world
> do / did similar overtime (without additional pay).
>
Mr too, that isn't unusual at all. I remember one year where I worked
every Saturday and Sunday besides the 10 hour weekdays without
additional pay.

>
>>
>> plus very generous
>>
>>> benefits benefits with very generous holiday, sick time and vacation
>>> time that no engineer could ever expect to see.
>>
>>
>> ---I'm sure benefits at large corporations are comparable....
>>
>>
>>
>>
> What corporation provides 12 weeks vacation per year? Other than UAW
> and government employees, I'm not aware of many paying full (or even
> 90%) health coverage.

In PA the union teachers have an ultra deluxe Blue Cross health plan
that was crafted especially just for them. There is zero possibility for
out of pocket expense. This costs us over $1,800/month for each teacher.
And as you stated they get 12 weeks paid vacation, all holidays and if
there is a hint of snow they can just hit the snooze button because a
snow day will be called.

== 6 of 7 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 11:27 am
From: George

suds macheath wrote:
> clams_casino wrote:
>> suds macheath wrote:
>>
>>> clams_casino wrote:
>>>
>>>> John Galt wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> But, why would a retired engineer want to get up at 6AM and be
>>>>> grading papers in front of the TV at night for 30K per year?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What teacher gets $30k /yr other than perhaps newly hired, just out
>>>> of college? Here, they are paid an AVERAGE of $60k
>>>
>>>
>>> ----How many of those have doctorates or masters degrees, and have
>>> been teaching for 20+ years? All of them?
>>
>>
>> That's the average. Those with masters tend to be paid $75k and
>> up. I'm not too sure many at the elementary / Jr high / High school
>> level have doctorates.
>>
>> http://cspf.wordpress.com/2007/02/07/questioning-teacher-salaries-2/
>> is a typical RI situation. Granted, teachers put in much over time,
>> but but salary position doesn't? I, for example, typically worked
>> an extra 8-12 hrs/ week (no overtime). Most I know in the corporate
>> world do / did similar overtime (without additional pay).
>>
>>
>>>
>>> plus very generous
>>>
>>>> benefits benefits with very generous holiday, sick time and vacation
>>>> time that no engineer could ever expect to see.
>>>
>>>
>>> ---I'm sure benefits at large corporations are comparable....
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> What corporation provides 12 weeks vacation per year?
>
> ---Teacher's don't get paid through the summer months....they are 10
> month employees...you have to work for a while to save up 60 vacation
> days.....and here they are limited to 60 days....

Public school teachers salaries in PA are annual. They can choose to be
paid either as weekly or divided by the number of weeks of the school
session.

>
> Other than UAW
>> and government employees, I'm not aware of many paying full (or even
>> 90%) health coverage.
>
> ----But most have health care benefits for salaried employees, do they not?

== 7 of 7 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 11:48 am
From: "Lubow"

>
> It has nothing to do with red/blue. Starting salary in Houston is 38K, Dallas
> 37K, and Kansas City 36K, while they're under 32K in Philadelphia and Chicago,
> and 34.5K in D.C. I suspect the beginning teacher in the NYC Metro Area (42K)
> is a lot more likely to be on food stamps than the starting teacher in
> Houston.

You're looking at all teachers, not just the tenured teachers. Big difference.
Think of it as what NFL rookies get compared to what the vets get for doing
essentially the same work.

Anyway, I'm in the NY metro area and the biggest problem facing our school
district is the amount of space allocated to parking. It seems the teachers do
not want cars to either side of their Lexuses or Beemers.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: The Next Bank Heist: DEBIT CARDS
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/535b1a94bef90ab2?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 10:59 am
From: sarge137

On Dec 7, 7:24 am, "hall...@aol.com" <hall...@aol.com> wrote:
> > > As to using credit cards, I'll still use mine whenever possible to
> > > get that reward credit. My debit card pays zilch.
>
> > I agree. I use my Visa card as much as possible. I pay it off in full
> > each month and I collect points toward air mileage. It also lets me
> > avoid the need to carry around as much cash with me, which makes it less
> > likely that I will be robbed of my money.
>
> after doing a multi year look at reward cards I decided they arent
> worth the bother.

Same here. With my clean as a whistle credit reports, and near max
FICO scores, pretty much every credit card in the country has
solicited me over the years, multiple times. I've carefully reviewed
every "reward" program. Haven't seen one yet that would prompt me to
change from the card I've been carrying since the early 70s. I see
claims all the time that people net hundreds of dollars a year in
rewards payments. Frankly, I don't believe them. I move thousands of
dollars a year through my credit card account, and haven't found one
yet that would NET me that much.

If anyone knows of a reward program with ALL of the following criteria
please post a link. I'd love to see it:

1. No annual fee.
2. Substantial credit line (at least 15K)
3. Full 30 day grace period from date of transaction.
4. No minimum average balance.
5. Fix APR less than 8%.
6. Includes every penny of all transactions, not just retail
purchases.
7. Pays rewards by check at least semi-annually.

> plus a robber has no idea how much money your carrying.

That's true, but irrelevant to whether or not you get targeted by a
bad guy. You should never carry more cash than you can afford to lose
or have stolen. But, whether thats $10 or $1,000, you'll get robbed
if you're in the wrong place, at the wrong time, among the wrong
people, no matter what's in your pockets. Common sense will keep you
out of that situation 99% of the time.

> I have heard of people with no cash getting robbed, and beat up
> because thewy had no cash

== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 11:34 am
From: Vic Smith

On Sun, 7 Dec 2008 10:59:34 -0800 (PST), sarge137
<rbooth9858@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On Dec 7, 7:24 am, "hall...@aol.com" <hall...@aol.com> wrote:
>> > > As to using credit cards, I'll still use mine whenever possible to
>> > > get that reward credit. My debit card pays zilch.
>>
>> > I agree. I use my Visa card as much as possible. I pay it off in full
>> > each month and I collect points toward air mileage. It also lets me
>> > avoid the need to carry around as much cash with me, which makes it less
>> > likely that I will be robbed of my money.
>>
>> after doing a multi year look at reward cards I decided they arent
>> worth the bother.
>
>Same here. With my clean as a whistle credit reports, and near max
>FICO scores, pretty much every credit card in the country has
>solicited me over the years, multiple times. I've carefully reviewed
>every "reward" program. Haven't seen one yet that would prompt me to
>change from the card I've been carrying since the early 70s. I see
>claims all the time that people net hundreds of dollars a year in
>rewards payments. Frankly, I don't believe them. I move thousands of
>dollars a year through my credit card account, and haven't found one
>yet that would NET me that much.
>
>If anyone knows of a reward program with ALL of the following criteria
>please post a link. I'd love to see it:
>
>1. No annual fee.
>2. Substantial credit line (at least 15K)
>3. Full 30 day grace period from date of transaction.
>4. No minimum average balance.
>5. Fix APR less than 8%.
>6. Includes every penny of all transactions, not just retail
>purchases.
>7. Pays rewards by check at least semi-annually.
>
I pretty much felt like you did, mostly because I was too lazy to
switch the card I've been using for many years.
I think I entertained getting a CitiBank card a couple years ago, but
said nah.
Anyway, Chase started their Freedom card a while back, and I bank and
CC with them, so I had them send me that card. That was May.
Just deposited a $200 check from the rewards, and there's $45 waiting.
Have to hit $50 for them to cut a check.
So that was free money. I figure it'll end up close to $300 for the 8
months this year I've had it.
You can look up the details yourself because I hate reading that crap,
but I can tell you it meets or exceeds all your criteria except APR.
Don't know what the APR is, because it never affects me.

--Vic

== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 11:58 am
From: krw

In article <otR_k.16779$no6.8152@newsfe04.iad>,
PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com says...
> hallerb@aol.com wrote:
>
> >after doing a multi year look at reward cards I decided they arent
> >worth the bother.
> >
> >
> >
>
> Situations differ, but I'm very pleased with the two $200 refund checks
> I received from my Chase Freedom card this year - simply realized by
> paying via cc vs. cash..

I've earned over $1000 in kickbacks from my AmEx and Chase BP cards
over the last year and I don't use the CC for everything. If the OP
thinks a free grand in the pocket (it's most of a table saw for me)
isn't worth it, fine. Most wouldn't leave a grand in unmarked $20s
on the sidewalk though.

--
Keith

== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 12:21 pm
From: sarge137

On Dec 7, 12:34 pm, Vic Smith <thismailautodele...@comcast.net> wrote:
> On Sun, 7 Dec 2008 10:59:34 -0800 (PST), sarge137
>
>
>
> <rbooth9...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >On Dec 7, 7:24 am, "hall...@aol.com" <hall...@aol.com> wrote:
> >> > > As to using credit cards, I'll still use mine whenever possible to
> >> > > get that reward credit. My debit card pays zilch.
>
> >> > I agree. I use my Visa card as much as possible. I pay it off in full
> >> > each month and I collect points toward air mileage. It also lets me
> >> > avoid the need to carry around as much cash with me, which makes it less
> >> > likely that I will be robbed of my money.
>
> >> after doing a multi year look at reward cards I decided they arent
> >> worth the bother.
>
> >Same here. With my clean as a whistle credit reports, and near max
> >FICO scores, pretty much every credit card in the country has
> >solicited me over the years, multiple times. I've carefully reviewed
> >every "reward" program. Haven't seen one yet that would prompt me to
> >change from the card I've been carrying since the early 70s. I see
> >claims all the time that people net hundreds of dollars a year in
> >rewards payments. Frankly, I don't believe them. I move thousands of
> >dollars a year through my credit card account, and haven't found one
> >yet that would NET me that much.
>
> >If anyone knows of a reward program with ALL of the following criteria
> >please post a link. I'd love to see it:
>
> >1. No annual fee.
> >2. Substantial credit line (at least 15K)
> >3. Full 30 day grace period from date of transaction.
> >4. No minimum average balance.
> >5. Fix APR less than 8%.
> >6. Includes every penny of all transactions, not just retail
> >purchases.
> >7. Pays rewards by check at least semi-annually.
>
> I pretty much felt like you did, mostly because I was too lazy to
> switch the card I've been using for many years.
> I think I entertained getting a CitiBank card a couple years ago, but
> said nah.
> Anyway, Chase started their Freedom card a while back, and I bank and
> CC with them, so I had them send me that card. That was May.
> Just deposited a $200 check from the rewards, and there's $45 waiting.
> Have to hit $50 for them to cut a check.
> So that was free money. I figure it'll end up close to $300 for the 8
> months this year I've had it.
> You can look up the details yourself because I hate reading that crap,
> but I can tell you it meets or exceeds all your criteria except APR.
> Don't know what the APR is, because it never affects me.
>
> --Vic

I'll give'em a look - thanks for the info.

The interest rate doesn't effect me directly either. Haven't paid any
in years. But it's a point of principal. High volume customers, on
whom they make major transaction fees, should be charged double
digital interest if they have to let a balance ride for a short time.

== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 12:22 pm
From: sarge137

I'll give'em a look - thanks for the info.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Folks, this is a real depression, protect your assets
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/cb1cc803cf7130ab?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 11:00 am
From: Curly Surmudgeon

On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 01:56:48 -0800, Gunner Asch wrote:

> On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 00:57:01 -0500, Jeffrey Turner <jturner@localnet.com>
> wrote:
>
>>Dave wrote:
>>>> Not to mention that all that "unskilled labor" with a few more bucks
>>>> in their pockets would buy more stuff, which would generate private
>>>> sector jobs making and selling that stuff. Dave might want to learn
>>>> something about the multiplier effect.
>>>>
>>>> --Jeff
>>>
>>> Jeff - Marxism does not work. -Dave
>>
>>Dave,
>>
>>Your brain doesn't work, apparently. If you've got economic facts to
>>argue with, show 'em. Or shut up and learn.
>>
>>--Jeff
>
>
> Deff appears to be in denial.

That's not much of an argument, still claiming that the economy is just
peachy?

--
Regards, Curly
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Vote Republican, Suffering Builds Character
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 11:18 am
From: Gunner Asch

On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 09:51:54 -0500, clams_casino
<PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:

>Dave wrote:
>
>>"clams_casino" <PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote in message
>>news:LZ9_k.14392$M33.1108@newsfe03.iad...
>>
>>
>>>Dave wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>Now I'm really confused. You condemn taxes, yet you support Palin
>>>>>who's sole means to govern is by taxing oil company profits and
>>>>>redistributing the bounty as welfare checks to all AK residents.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>Yes, you are confused. AK has a unique arrangement with the oil
>>>>
>>>>
>>companies.
>>
>>
>>>>It started probably before Sarah was even born. But I'd have to
>>>>double-check that, to confirm that Sarah wasn't born yet. -Dave
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>So which is it? Do you believe government should balance it's books
>>>by taxing companies to the maximum (i.e.. Palin's method of taxing oil
>>>company profits)? Or reducing taxes on corporations?
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Neither. Again, Palin does not tax oil company profits. And AGAIN, Alaska
>>has a unique arrangement with the oil companies that started before Sarah
>>Palin was born. -Dave
>>
>>
>>
>>
>OK - You answered it to my satisfaction. You are totally out of touch
>with reality. Leave a closing comment to end your nonsense.

My irony meter just exploded.

"They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist..."
Maj. Gen. John Sedgewick, killed by a sniper in 1864 at the battle of Spotsylvania

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 11:48 am
From: "Dave"

> > It will cost my family at least $23,000 in extra (note EXTRA) taxes.
How
> > much will it cost your family?
> >
> > That much is DONE already. That was long before all these other bailout
> > proposals, currently totalling about 8 Trillion (borrowed principle
amount),
> > last I heard. It seems to be increasing by hundreds of billions a week
> > though. How much will your family have to pay for say, 10 trillion
> > principle, which will cost about 20 trillion or more with interest?
HAVE
> > YOU DONE THE MATH???????????????????????????????????????????? -Dave
>
> Oscar Wilde said a cynic is someone who knows the price of everything
> and the value of nothing. That mantle has been passed to the
> mouth-breathing conservatroids.
>
> --Jeff
>

OK, tell me then...how much value is your family going to get from the
~$300K in EXTRA taxes that your government is going to assess to your
family, with your apparent blessing? -Dave

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Another good weekend of cheap finds
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/9e4b88c1d8c6eb66?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 11:20 am
From: Seerialmom

On Dec 7, 7:50 am, MSfort...@mcpmail.com wrote:
> On Dec 7, 10:20 am, Seerialmom <seerial...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Yesterday was great! In the local paper they had another $20 off $100
> > purchase at Raley's (chain in most of Calif.). Figured I'd go early
> > today while it's quiet; however anything I get must be 1. needed and
> > 2. a better price than I can get elsewhere. Not as easy since they
> > aren't a discount store. But combining loss leaders and coupons
> > should work.
>
> > The other big score of the day was a Dyson vacuum in perfectly good
> > working condition I found at the Goodwill for....drumroll please....
> > $25! Sweet. I tested it there (it had dirt in the canister which I
> > dumped and revacuumed up). My daughter was often borrowing mine so my
> > plan as to give this one to her :)
>
> Whatever floats your boat I guess. I don't see the savings. I never
> purchased a vacuum in my life. I use a bag-less Bissell and have two
> spare Fantoms in the basement. People throw out vacuums all the time
> that only need a belt or cleaning. My brother often makes the
> statement, "If you don't go to the store, you ain't spending money." I
> receive coupons and sale notices all the time. Can I do without? Yes.

Sure free would have been better on the Dyson. But considering the
normal retail price and how well they work (in spite of what Consumer
Reports says), it was worth it. I've also resurrected "dead" vacuums
in the past; a Dirt Devil was one of my better finds. And I won't use
one of those coupons unless I had planned on patronizing the store
already :)

==============================================================================
TOPIC: supreme court to determine obama presidential eligibilty
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/546a49e0512f561c?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 11:41 am
From: "Dave"

> >
> > Different case:
> > http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2008/12/obama-birth-cer.html
>
> OK, I found it. No. 08A407. But this suit accepts that Obama was born in
> the USA and was an American citizen at birth.

And? Again, a citizen is not eligible to be President. -Dave

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 12:05 pm
From: "AllEmailDeletedImmediately"

"Dave" <noway1@noway2.not> wrote in message
news:ghh8se$c4q$1@news.motzarella.org...
>
>> >
>> > Different case:
>> > http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2008/12/obama-birth-cer.html
>>
>> OK, I found it. No. 08A407. But this suit accepts that Obama was born in
>> the USA and was an American citizen at birth.
>
> And? Again, a citizen is not eligible to be President. -Dave
>
correct. american citizenship does not automatically constitutionally
qualify one to be prez

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Hello Everyone
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/aadd28a9b8682e15?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 11:47 am
From: "AFA"

Welcome here Pete!!

"Seerialmom" <seerialmom@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:cf745a98-a6c2-4845-818e-1737cf1072fe@k24g2000pri.googlegroups.com:

> On Dec 7, 2:30 am, Salford1 <vectisp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > My name's Pete (from UK). Just joined the group & thought i'd
> > introduce myself.
>
>
> Sorry no one replied; it appears they're too busy trading barbs about
> off topic subjects and rants about the world going to hell in a hand
> basket. However, some of us do still try to post and reply to things
> related to frugal living like how to save money on energy costs or hot
> deals.
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.15/1834 - Release Date: 12/6/2008 4:55 PM

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Kennedy, Dodd, all the old farts sat around when our steel and
electronics business went offshore. Now they want to "save" the Big 3!
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/ae7ede76c46e3f5b?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 11:59 am
From: wismel@yahoo.com

On Sun, 7 Dec 2008 11:43:42 -0800 (PST), hpope@lycos.com wrote:

>Oh, my how they scramble. Topping it off is the lisping Barney Frank
>demanding support for Detroit. I recall when our steel mills were
>working, I recall ships being launched, I recall American made TV
>sets. So fuck the Wall Street maggots and those Chamber of Commerce
>whores. Bring on that Chinese 4dr mid-size fuel effiicient vehicle
>with all the bells and whistles for $12,000.00!
>
>mitch

The proposed "bailout or loan" is doomed to failure. Watch Detroit
come back for more claiming that the initial loans will be lost if
more public monies are not forthcoming. I say let the system work.
Bankruptacy should be an orderly process. From a practical standpoint
just buy American-made Hondas and Toyotas! And you are so right
about the banker-class and outsources American jobs. Let the games
begin!!!!

ted

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Sunday, December 7, 2008

misc.consumers.frugal-living - 26 new messages in 8 topics - digest

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