Frugal Living: Sep 16, 2008

Tuesday, September 16, 2008

25 new messages in 11 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Welfare babies, greasy diners and other tidbits
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/05c9411f66b99582?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Sep 16 2008 11:08 am
From: chief_thracian@yahoo.com (Chief Thracian)

On Sun, 14 Sep 2008 08:47:38 -0700 (PDT), James Nasium
<jimnasium37@gmail.com> wrote:

> you read it and I remain....

a bigoted, illiterate asshole who didn't get beyond the first grade,
both literally and emotionally.

--
Steal This Blog!
http://www.gay-bible.org/steal

==============================================================================
TOPIC: I am losing my butt
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/2b88d0c3914417a6?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 9 ==
Date: Tues, Sep 16 2008 11:08 am
From: chief_thracian@yahoo.com (Chief Thracian)

On Tue, 16 Sep 2008 14:23:16 +1000, "Rod Speed"
<rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:

>Its only the dregs that end up entirely dependant on social security.

Such as the severely disabled? You sound like Der Fuhrer.

>Yes there are. The great democracys survived two world wars, the great depression and
>countless other smaller wars fine

Fine? What about the incalculable suffering and deaths? Not to mention
all the INNOCENT victims wiped out by our so-called righteous battles?
Our nation has terrorized many other nations for many years now...and
gotten away with it, so far. This time around, it won't work.

> and we have worked out how to avoid depressions now

Nope. Capitalism has diligently wiped out all those safeguards put in
place by FDR.

>and even if we do have another, it will be much easier to take than the great depression was.

Nope. It will be far more disastrous, and most likely unrecoverable. 3
billion MORE people are in the capitalist game now ("Chindia"),
grabbing as much and as fast as they can, limited resources of oil and
gas.

>Wrong again. All those close to retirement have to do is avoid the most volatile markets.

EVERY market is highly volatile, dufus. There is NO safe haven when it
comes to gambling...er, I mean investing.

--
Steal This Blog!
http://www.gay-bible.org/steal

== 2 of 9 ==
Date: Tues, Sep 16 2008 12:37 pm
From: timeOday

Rod Speed wrote:

>> Even if every retiree stacks up a pile of cash, they can't spend it unless somebody
>> is ready and willing to take a job cooking meals, changing bedpans, etc.
>
> Wrong again. They can spend it on what they provide for themselves instead.

What does that mean?

Imagine everybody in a hypothetical society decides to spend their money
on their 401K's instead of raising children.

After that society ages and there is nobody to provide goods and
services, what use are the investments? Their value would be destroyed
by inflation as all the "wealthy" retirees outbid each other for the
services of the last guy healthy enough to grow their food and push them
around in a wheelchair.

You can't design an economic system to negate shifting demographics.
All you can do is rely on immigration to keep the worker-to-nonworker
ratio high enough, or technology to increase productivity so the ratio
can fall without destroying everybody's standard of living.

== 3 of 9 ==
Date: Tues, Sep 16 2008 12:40 pm
From: clams_casino

Don Klipstein wrote:

> The USA broad stock market has actrually done fairly well from the 1971
>high to now.
>

Especially if one ignores the past ten years.

== 4 of 9 ==
Date: Tues, Sep 16 2008 2:00 pm
From: "h"

"timeOday" <timeOday-UNSPAM@theknack.net> wrote in message
news:Db6dnYnw4LZzl03VnZ2dnUVZ_gydnZ2d@comcast.com...

>
> You can't design an economic system to negate shifting demographics.
> All you can do is rely on immigration to keep the worker-to-nonworker
> ratio high enough, or technology to increase productivity so the ratio
> can fall without destroying everybody's standard of living.

Human population needs to drop down to a manageable 3-4 billion as soon as
possible. Adding more people makes the problem worse, not better. The "make
more people to grow the economy" garbage is a ponzi scheme that will
inevitably have disastrous consequences. We're starting to see it already.
We have to either consume a helluva lot less of everything, or we need to
have fewer people around to do the consuming. Your choice, but I'll take the
fewer people option. If people would just limit themselves one child, (or
none) for just a few generations, we could stave off the coming collapse
when we run out of resources. I'm an only child of two only children, and
I'm childfree. I've done my part towards negative population growth, which
is what we really need to combat economic and climate issues, since the
government isn't doing anything about either.

== 5 of 9 ==
Date: Tues, Sep 16 2008 2:33 pm
From: timeOday

h wrote:

> We have to either consume a helluva lot less of everything, or we need to
> have fewer people around to do the consuming. Your choice, but I'll take the
> fewer people option.

Oh, I know. Ultimately the population *will* level off whether or not
it's a conscious choice. I don't claim to know how close we are, but
eventually we'd all be shoulder to shoulder. Of course in practice
starvation will kick in long before that happens.

However, a mushrooming population does improve the standard of living
*while it lasts* because a youth-skewed population is more able-bodied.
That, and the fact that nothing is more central to evolution than the
biological imperative to reproduce, means it's an addiction that will be
very hard to break.

== 6 of 9 ==
Date: Tues, Sep 16 2008 2:53 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

Chief Thracian <chief_thracian@yahoo.com> wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:

>>> No matter how you rejigger the numbers, it still boils down to workers supporting retirees.

>> No it doesnt, plenty have more for their time past work than just social security.

>> Its only the dregs that end up entirely dependant on social security.

> Such as the severely disabled?

Only the dregs of the severely disabled end up entirely dependant on social security.

> You sound like Der Fuhrer.

He gassed them, fool.

>>> There really are no guarantees.

>> Yes there are. The great democracys survived two world wars,
>> the great depression and countless other smaller wars fine

> Fine?

Yep, fine.

> What about the incalculable suffering

Pure fantasy.

> and deaths?

Everyone dies sometime.

> Not to mention all the INNOCENT victims wiped out by our so-called righteous battles?

Nothing to do with the guarantees being discussed.

> Our nation has terrorized many other nations for many years now...

Nothing to do with the guarantees being discussed.

You're always welcome to set fire to yourself in 'protest' or sumfin.

> and gotten away with it, so far. This time around, it won't work.

Corse it will, just like it did during the great depression and those world wars, you watch.

>> and we have worked out how to avoid depressions now

> Nope.

Yep.

> Capitalism has diligently wiped out all those safeguards put in place by FDR.

They werent put in place by FDR, they were put in place by Congress.

And we wouldnt have seen the bailout of Bear Stearns, Fanny Mae and Freddy Mac if your lie was true.

>> and even if we do have another, it will be much easier to take than the great depression was.

> Nope.

Yep, you watch. There isnt even a technical recession yet.

> It will be far more disastrous, and most likely unrecoverable.

Just another of your pathetic little drug crazed pig ignorant fantasys, you watch.

> 3 billion MORE people are in the capitalist game now ("Chindia"), grabbing
> as much and as fast as they can, limited resources of oil and gas.

And we have invented the technology that allows us to yawn about that, nukes.

>>> All that said, yeah, the markets are way too volatile for people in or very near retirement.

>> Wrong again. All those close to retirement have to do is avoid the most volatile markets.

> EVERY market is highly volatile, dufus.

Cash under the bed isnt, fool.

> There is NO safe haven when it comes to gambling...er, I mean investing.

Wrong, as always. You can keep it in FDIC guaranteed accounts if you want to, fool.

== 7 of 9 ==
Date: Tues, Sep 16 2008 3:03 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

timeOday <timeOday-UNSPAM@theknack.net> wrote
> Rod Speed wrote

>>> Even if every retiree stacks up a pile of cash, they can't spend it unless somebody
>>> is ready and willing to take a job cooking meals, changing bedpans, etc.

>> Wrong again. They can spend it on what they provide for themselves instead.

> What does that mean?

That they dont have to employ anyone to do what you listed.

> Imagine everybody in a hypothetical society decides to
> spend their money on their 401K's instead of raising children.

Wont ever happen, there will always be plenty that choose to have children or keep having them by accident.

> After that society ages and there is nobody to provide
> goods and services, what use are the investments?

Thats a completely silly question because that will never happen.

You might as well ask how we would avoid getting gassed if everyone choose to eat beans and all farted at once.

> Their value would be destroyed by inflation as all the "wealthy"
> retirees outbid each other for the services of the last guy healthy
> enough to grow their food and push them around in a wheelchair.

Mindlessly silly and completely irrelevant scenario. Taint gunna happen.

> You can't design an economic system to negate shifting demographics.

Corse you can. The current economic system does that by allowing immigration.

> All you can do is rely on immigration to keep the worker-to-nonworker ratio high enough,

And that is part of the design of the current economic system.

> or technology to increase productivity

Which it ALWAYS does.

> so the ratio can fall without destroying everybody's standard of living.

And both of those keep happening, to ensure that everyone's standard of living continues fine.

Even Japan that chooses to minimise immigration still manages to maintain its living standards
fine, essentially by relying on technology mechanise what previously used a lot more manual
labor, and to import what is produced using very heavily mechanised agriculture in other parts
of the world, and pays for those by essentially swapping those for the cars etc that are produced
in highly automated factorys in Japan etc. Works fine.

== 8 of 9 ==
Date: Tues, Sep 16 2008 3:11 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

h <tmclone@searchmachine.com> wrote
> timeOday <timeOday-UNSPAM@theknack.net> wrote

>> You can't design an economic system to negate shifting demographics.
>> All you can do is rely on immigration to keep the worker-to-nonworker
>> ratio high enough, or technology to increase productivity so the
>> ratio can fall without destroying everybody's standard of living.

> Human population needs to drop down to a manageable 3-4 billion as soon as possible.

Nope, not in the modern first world which isnt even self replacing on population now if you take out immigration.

> Adding more people makes the problem worse, not better.

Nope, not in the modern first world which isnt even self replacing on population now if you take out immigration.

> The "make more people to grow the economy" garbage is a ponzi scheme that will inevitably have disastrous
> consequences.

Nope, not in the modern first world which isnt even self replacing on population now if you take out immigration.

> We're starting to see it already.

Nope, not in the modern first world which isnt even self replacing on population now if you take out immigration.

> We have to either consume a helluva lot less of everything, or we need to have fewer people around to do the
> consuming.

It aint that binary. We can move to better sources of energy like nukes instead.

> Your choice, but I'll take the fewer people option.

I'll take the improved technology route myself.

> If people would just limit themselves one child, (or none) for just a few generations,

No need in the modern first world which isnt even self replacing on population now if you take out immigration.

> we could stave off the coming collapse when we run out of resources.

We wont ever run out of resources, the most we will ever do is change the resources we use.

> I'm an only child of two only children, and I'm childfree. I've done my part towards negative population growth,

And you didnt need to do that because you are part of the modern first world
which isnt even self replacing on population now if you take out immigration.

> which is what we really need to combat economic and climate issues,

Nope, we'll survive them fine, you watch.

> since the government isn't doing anything about either.

Nothing needs to be done in the first world.

It would be handy if the worst of the third world came to their senses, but thats unlikely while every those fools
in Rome and the Muslims dont come to their senses on the number of kids they encourage their fools to have.

== 9 of 9 ==
Date: Tues, Sep 16 2008 3:15 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

timeOday <timeOday-UNSPAM@theknack.net> wrote:
> h wrote:
>
>> We have to either consume a helluva lot less of everything, or we
>> need to have fewer people around to do the consuming. Your choice,
>> but I'll take the fewer people option.
>
> Oh, I know. Ultimately the population *will* level off whether or not it's a conscious choice.

It has already right thruout the modern first and second world. Not one of
them is even self replacing on population now if you take out immigration.

> I don't claim to know how close we are, but
> eventually we'd all be shoulder to shoulder.

Nope, nothing like it. It isnt even like that in the highest density of population
places in the world like HongKong.

> Of course in practice starvation will kick in long before that happens.

Its likely that the rest of the world will end up self limiting without
that just like ALL of the modern first and second world has done.

> However, a mushrooming population does improve the standard of living
> *while it lasts* because a youth-skewed population is more able-bodied.

Have fun explaining china compared with india.

> That, and the fact that nothing is more central to evolution than the biological
> imperative to reproduce, means it's an addiction that will be very hard to break.

Nope, thats happened right thruout the modern first and second world without any explicit action at all.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Dry pet food recalled due to harboring Salmonella
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/ac49610c6ba81d91?hl=en
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== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Sep 16 2008 11:30 am
From: blackwidow@spiders.com

On Tue, 16 Sep 2008 13:20:33 -0400, "h" <tmclone@searchmachine.com>
wrote:

>
><blackwidow@spiders.com> wrote in message
>news:ivjvc49ptigjdao56j9nkbdukdq5itrbib@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 16 Sep 2008 01:37:45 -0400, "h" <tmclone@searchmachine.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Mark Anderson" <mea@nospambrandylion.com> wrote in message
>>>news:MPG.2338fa0ab294d54a989ac3@chi.news.speakeasy.net...
>>>> In article letterman@invalid.com says...
>>>>> Has anyone noticed that almost all of these contaminated and recalled
>>>>> human and pet foods in recent years is ALWAYS the stuff sold at
>>>>> Walmart. Just one of several reasons I will not buy any foods from
>>>>> Walmart anymore.
>>>>>
>>>>> The following are sold at Walmart
>>>>> * Pedigree
>>>>> * Ol' Roy
>>>>> * PetPride
>>>>> * Special Kitty
>>>
>>>My two cats were poisoned last March by the Special Kitty (Walmart) pouch
>>>brand. They both lived, but they're still on meds and I'm out over $3k and
>>>climbing. I still buy pouch cat food at Walmart, but only Purina brand,
>>>since Purina (supposedly) controls all the ingredients of their products,
>>>and nothing comes from China.
>>>
>>
>> I'll agree that Purina is good feed, but I'd bet you can get it
>> cheaper somewhere other than Walmart.
>
>No other store around here sells the pouches cheaper than Walmart. I don't
>like Walmart either, but I will always shop where the prices are lowest.
>

I look for the cheapest prices too, but I'm not willing to sell out my
country for a few pennies. The cost of Purina cat food is 46 cents
more at a local feed mill. The feed mill is closer, so I save those
pennies in gas. At the same time, I can buy mens socks at Dollar
General (a bag of 6 pairs) for almost $2 less than at Walmart, and
it's the same brand. There again, Dollar General is closer than
Walmart so I save more on gas. Walmart wants you to believe they are
cheaper, but are they really? Yes, some items are cheaper, but many
are the same or more. Most of their food is quite a bit more than the
local grocery store. Motor Oil for my car is around 70 cents more per
quart at Walmart than at Dollar General. Both are Penzoil of the same
grade. The generic oil at Walmart is more than a dollar more per
quart. I only go to Walmart when I need something at 2am and it's
critical, such as toilet paper. I do everything to avoid that place.
They are ruining the economy and our country.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Sep 16 2008 1:50 pm
From: "h"

<blackwidow@spiders.com> wrote in message
news:l8uvc4tjfk53fin6ql5e1ssd0fimv9im03@4ax.com...
> Walmart wants you to believe they are
> cheaper, but are they really? Yes, some items are cheaper, but many
> are the same or more.

Well, for me the Wal-Mart is the closest store, and MUCH cheaper on
everything I buy (except meat) than the grocery stores, so yeah, they are
cheaper. Granted, I buy practically no packaged food of any kind except for
pet food, and I get my meat once a month from the butcher, so I don't really
buy that much at Walmart. We grow most of our veg and we don't eat grains,
so dairy and fruit are pretty much the only things we buy from Walmart.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: china discount shoes www.straat-pattas.com
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/96c48beea3020b9c?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Sep 16 2008 11:31 am
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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Reusing Water
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/fd655be017f95057?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Tues, Sep 16 2008 12:44 pm
From: Lou

On Sep 16, 4:31 am, Petepeng...@webtv.net (P T) wrote:
> In a similar vein, I read an article about a man near me who rigged up a
> series of pipes, chutes, and a large container, to store rain water that
> ran off his roof, for reuse in the garden. Not only that, but he
> convinced his two neighbors to allow him to channel their run off into
> his cistern also.

I'm trying to figure a way to bury a few 50 gallon plastic drums
to drain the tub and shower, then use the water to water the
lawn and maybe flush the toilets. It seems to ridiculous to just use
the water once when you should at least be able to flush the
toilets with it.

Lou

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Tues, Sep 16 2008 1:40 pm
From: Seerialmom

On Sep 14, 6:36 am, Lou <loup...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I'm trying to think of a way to use bath and shower water to water the
> lawn. Has anyone come across a household underground system either
> professional or home made that could be retrofitted?
> Lou

Not doing it exactly that way but do have a 5 gallon bucket sitting in
the shower to catch some of the spray and the brief cups of water I
draw in pursuit of "hot". I've been watering my plants around the
house for the past month or so using this method.

Best bet would be to see if 1. it's legal where you are to redirect
"grey" water in the plumbing system (vs the passive approach I
mentioned above). 2. Google "grey water" or "home grey water".

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Tues, Sep 16 2008 3:16 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

Lou <loupark@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Sep 16, 4:31 am, Petepeng...@webtv.net (P T) wrote:
>> In a similar vein, I read an article about a man near me who rigged
>> up a series of pipes, chutes, and a large container, to store rain
>> water that ran off his roof, for reuse in the garden. Not only
>> that, but he convinced his two neighbors to allow him to channel
>> their run off into his cistern also.
>
> I'm trying to figure a way to bury a few 50 gallon plastic drums
> to drain the tub and shower, then use the water to water the
> lawn and maybe flush the toilets. It seems to ridiculous to just use
> the water once when you should at least be able to flush the
> toilets with it.

All you need is the standard water tank and put that water in that.

Dont even need to bury it.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: CVS Pharmacist calls customer a "Fucking AIDS freak"
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/5f6c5d62367cf192?hl=en
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== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Tues, Sep 16 2008 2:31 pm
From: Patriot Games

On Fri, 12 Sep 2008 00:56:10 GMT, "Martha Adams" <mhada@verizon.net>
wrote:
>"Patriot Games" <Patriot@America.Com> wrote in message
>news:7r0jc4ltaepcsbcteta3tv2qvmt7dlomld@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 10 Sep 2008 22:25:19 -0700 (PDT), ultimauw@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>http://consumerist.com/5047882/cvs-employee-calls-customer-a-fucking-aids-freak
>>>Check out this stunning exchange between a Philadelphia CVS employee
>>>and a customer:
>>> His response was "Whatever, somebody needs to come deal with this
>>>because I'm about to go off..."
>>> "You're about to 'Go off?', I asked him."Do you really think
>>>that's the best thing to say to a paying customer?"
>>> And at this point, with his back turned to me, the young man
>>>muttered "Fucking AIDS freak."
>> Bwahahahahhahahaha!!
>> Most people don't like fags, and just about everybody doesn't like
>> AIDS-Fags!
>>>We are both currently on a
>>>medicaid-related health insurance plan, a situation that is new to us
>>>and directly related to his current health issues.
>> And the taxpayers are paying good money to keep a fag alive!?!?!
>> Now THAT is an INJUSTICE!
>==========
>Anybody want to guess if this fellow is a Republican?

Yes, I am. Cunt.

Any questions?

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Tues, Sep 16 2008 2:36 pm
From: Patriot Games

On Sun, 14 Sep 2008 04:37:17 GMT, chief_thracian@yahoo.com (Chief
Thracian) wrote:
>On Thu, 11 Sep 2008 16:47:43 -0400, Patriot Games
><Patriot@America.Com> wrote:
>>Most people don't like fags, and just about everybody doesn't like
>>AIDS-Fags!
>Hatred is nothing to be proud of. Nor is a prejudice justified, just
>because it's a majority opinion. Germans made that mistake, and it led
>to a holocaust.

You weren't paying attention, FAG.

>I feel terribly sorry for your wife or girlfriend (you have one) and
>for your children (if you have any). Must be a living hell to have to
>exist under the same roof with such a shitbagfull of hetero feces as
>yourself!

1 conservative heterosexual wife, 5 conservative heterosexual
children, 12 conservative heterosexual grandchildren.

That means we have YOU outnumbered, FAG.

>Gaymerica: love it or leave it!

There's NO SUCH THING.

At best maybe 4% of the population is FAGGOTS.

Which means we could EXTERMINATE ALL OF YOU and not miss any of ya's.

Fuck off, FAG.

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Tues, Sep 16 2008 2:37 pm
From: Patriot Games

On Mon, 15 Sep 2008 02:26:42 -0700 (PDT), ultimauw@hotmail.com wrote:
>On Sep 11, 1:47 pm, Patriot Games <Patr...@America.Com> wrote:
>> On Wed, 10 Sep 2008 22:25:19 -0700 (PDT), ultim...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> >http://consumerist.com/5047882/cvs-employee-calls-customer-a-fucking-...
>> >Check out this stunning exchange between a Philadelphia CVS employee
>> >and a customer:
>> > His response was "Whatever, somebody needs to come deal with this
>> >because I'm about to go off..."
>> > "You're about to 'Go off?', I asked him."Do you really think
>> >that's the best thing to say to a paying customer?"
>> > And at this point, with his back turned to me, the young man
>> >muttered "Fucking AIDS freak."
>> Bwahahahahhahahaha!!
>> Most people don't like fa love ponies ponies, I want more ponies! Give me some ponies, I want to buy a pony!
>wait, you were sayin?

Editing someone's QUOTED WORDS is malicious posting.

Now you no longer exist.

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Tues, Sep 16 2008 3:08 pm
From: Jeff

Martha Adams wrote:
> "Patriot Games" <Patriot@America.Com> wrote in message
> news:7r0jc4ltaepcsbcteta3tv2qvmt7dlomld@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 10 Sep 2008 22:25:19 -0700 (PDT), ultimauw@hotmail.com wrote:
>>> http://consumerist.com/5047882/cvs-employee-calls-customer-a-fucking-aids-freak
>>>
>>> Check out this stunning exchange between a Philadelphia CVS employee
>>> and a customer:
>>> His response was "Whatever, somebody needs to come deal with this
>>> because I'm about to go off..."
>>> "You're about to 'Go off?', I asked him."Do you really think
>>> that's the best thing to say to a paying customer?"
>>> And at this point, with his back turned to me, the young man
>>> muttered "Fucking AIDS freak."
>>
>> Bwahahahahhahahaha!!
>>
>> Most people don't like fags, and just about everybody doesn't like
>> AIDS-Fags!
>>
>>> We are both currently on a
>>> medicaid-related health insurance plan, a situation that is new to us
>>> and directly related to his current health issues.
>>
>> And the taxpayers are paying good money to keep a fag alive!?!?!
>>
>> Now THAT is an INJUSTICE!
>
> ==========
>
> Anybody want to guess if this fellow is a Republican?

Yes. Mr Games is a member of the party of closeted homosexuals.

He gets overly excited himself. You'll see him go off the loose end
time and again.

Jeff
>
> Titeotwawki -- mha [sci.med 2008 Sep 11]
>
>
>
>

==============================================================================
TOPIC: George Foreman Grill
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/5150d26d00ad4bfc?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Sep 16 2008 2:56 pm
From: Al Bundy

Chief Thracian wrote:
> On Mon, 15 Sep 2008 04:19:20 -0700 (PDT), Kevin <kevmarket@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> >If you are looking for a wonderful blog that gives you details about
> >the George Foreman Grill, The Lean Mean Grilling Machine. You will find it to be helpful
> >to finding grill information and recipes.
>
> I don't see anything there, like you describe. Certainly, no
> "details". The blog is a ruse. You need to change the blog's subtitle
> from "Everything about the George Foreman Grill" to "Nothing about the
> George Foreman Grill".
>
>
Hey, what the heck. A high school kid has to start somewhere.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: help please
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/da20ade9242f8253?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Sep 16 2008 2:59 pm
From: Al Bundy

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>
>
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> Turn $6 into $600,000 OR MORE! : MAKE QUICK EASY MONEY FAST! EARN
> LOADS OF MONEY, HONESTLY, FAIRLY, AND LEGALLY! Greetings All, I found

Too late. Most of the $6 people have moved on to blogging scams now.
You are the last one in. your $6 is lost.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Regular Homeowner's H03 policy allowed for a Condo instead of H06?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/38bdd551b6e86ff5?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Sep 16 2008 3:27 pm
From: JayN

I live in a large Condo (it is a townhouse but is still a condo). I'm
shopping around for insurance, since my existing insurance company
raised the rates by 12%.

One agent, who works directly for one of the insurance companies, is
telling me that he checked with his manager, and they can write me a
regular Homeowner's policy HO3 instead which will be less expensive
than if I were covered on an HO6 (condo policy). He claims this is
allowed.

I believe the reason they are talking about an HO3 is because my
existing policy has almost 150K insured for the "Building Property" on
the inside of my unit. My unit is 3000 square feet if you include
the finished basement. They consider that to be unusual for a condo,
and he says that would be cheaper to just get a regular HO3, and they
claim this is allowed. The quote I am being giving is a couple
hundred less than what I am currently paying.

Just want to confirm that this is really allowed?

Thanks,

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Real Estate Exchanges beat Capitol Gains?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/40cc20de8723dfa1?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Sep 16 2008 3:32 pm
From: Gordon

Community Organizer <georgewkspam@humboldt1.com> wrote in
news:georgewkspam-0C0B66.08251416092008@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net:

> we were looking at a property in town to move to if and when we sell our
> homestead or I die and the wife wants to be closer to services.
> But we don't want to sell the country place and finding a Reverse
> Mortgage is proving difficult. The place doesn't qualify under HUD rules.
> So, I thought an Exchange of properties. the R.M. for possession of the
> place in town.
> Is there a book on how to do that? Do you need a broker that specializes?

It's called a Starker 1031 Exchange. IT's only for investment property,
not personal property. You don't need a broker, but you do need
a company to facilitate the exchange. There are many conditions that
have to be met. If you haven't ever done this, you should get
expert help or you can get yourself in trouble with the IRS.

But Note: You and your wife can may be able to take a combined
$500,000 Capitol gains deduction when you sell your property.

Do you need a broker? No. But, There are things you can do
like using part of your property now for income. Then you
can claim it as income property for the the 1031 exchange.
then you can take the $500,000 Capitol gains exclusion on
the personal portion of the property. If you are at all
hazy on the specifics of all this (IE: What I'm telling you
is news to you), you should definitly find a broker that
specilizes in 1031 exchanges and formulate a plan. Do it
now, not when you are ready to sell, since many of the things
you have to do need to be in place for 5 years or more.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: In-house visit by a "Rainbow vacuum" salesperson
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/8cbbcbc71d84da35?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Sep 16 2008 3:38 pm
From: Lew Hartswick

krw wrote:
> In article <weqdnUPrb--lSlPVnZ2dnUVZ_q3inZ2d@earthlink.com>,
> lhartswick@earthlink.net says...
>>And if you are a little (maybe a lot) older the radios, especially
>>by "Midwest" (as I remember the name), were competing by the number
>>of tubes. In some cases I think only with the heaters connected. :-)
>
> Weren't they all "five tube wonders"? Dangerous things! 50% chance
> of the metal chasis being live. The only thing between the operator
> and 120V was the plastic knob.
>
Most of them were 5 tubes but the Midwest ones advertized 8 and 10
tubes with dummies. And yes the chassis were at one side of the line
so if pluged in the wrong way could be HOT.
...lew...

==============================================================================

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Google Groups: http://groups.google.com?hl=en

26 new messages in 20 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 15 2008 10:37 pm
From: "h"

"Mark Anderson" <mea@nospambrandylion.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.2338fa0ab294d54a989ac3@chi.news.speakeasy.net...
> In article letterman@invalid.com says...
>> Has anyone noticed that almost all of these contaminated and recalled
>> human and pet foods in recent years is ALWAYS the stuff sold at
>> Walmart. Just one of several reasons I will not buy any foods from
>> Walmart anymore.
>>
>> The following are sold at Walmart
>> * Pedigree
>> * Ol' Roy
>> * PetPride
>> * Special Kitty

My two cats were poisoned last March by the Special Kitty (Walmart) pouch
brand. They both lived, but they're still on meds and I'm out over $3k and
climbing. I still buy pouch cat food at Walmart, but only Purina brand,
since Purina (supposedly) controls all the ingredients of their products,
and nothing comes from China.

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Tues, Sep 16 2008 8:29 am
From: blackwidow@spiders.com

On Tue, 16 Sep 2008 01:37:45 -0400, "h" <tmclone@searchmachine.com>
wrote:

>
>"Mark Anderson" <mea@nospambrandylion.com> wrote in message
>news:MPG.2338fa0ab294d54a989ac3@chi.news.speakeasy.net...
>> In article letterman@invalid.com says...
>>> Has anyone noticed that almost all of these contaminated and recalled
>>> human and pet foods in recent years is ALWAYS the stuff sold at
>>> Walmart. Just one of several reasons I will not buy any foods from
>>> Walmart anymore.
>>>
>>> The following are sold at Walmart
>>> * Pedigree
>>> * Ol' Roy
>>> * PetPride
>>> * Special Kitty
>
>My two cats were poisoned last March by the Special Kitty (Walmart) pouch
>brand. They both lived, but they're still on meds and I'm out over $3k and
>climbing. I still buy pouch cat food at Walmart, but only Purina brand,
>since Purina (supposedly) controls all the ingredients of their products,
>and nothing comes from China.
>

I'll agree that Purina is good feed, but I'd bet you can get it
cheaper somewhere other than Walmart. Walmart wants to sell their
poisoned garbage. so they jack up the prices of other brands. Besides
that, why do business with a company that wants to destroy America?
DON'T DO BUSINESS WITH WALMART !!!!!!

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Tues, Sep 16 2008 10:20 am
From: "h"

<blackwidow@spiders.com> wrote in message
news:ivjvc49ptigjdao56j9nkbdukdq5itrbib@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 16 Sep 2008 01:37:45 -0400, "h" <tmclone@searchmachine.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Mark Anderson" <mea@nospambrandylion.com> wrote in message
>>news:MPG.2338fa0ab294d54a989ac3@chi.news.speakeasy.net...
>>> In article letterman@invalid.com says...
>>>> Has anyone noticed that almost all of these contaminated and recalled
>>>> human and pet foods in recent years is ALWAYS the stuff sold at
>>>> Walmart. Just one of several reasons I will not buy any foods from
>>>> Walmart anymore.
>>>>
>>>> The following are sold at Walmart
>>>> * Pedigree
>>>> * Ol' Roy
>>>> * PetPride
>>>> * Special Kitty
>>
>>My two cats were poisoned last March by the Special Kitty (Walmart) pouch
>>brand. They both lived, but they're still on meds and I'm out over $3k and
>>climbing. I still buy pouch cat food at Walmart, but only Purina brand,
>>since Purina (supposedly) controls all the ingredients of their products,
>>and nothing comes from China.
>>
>
> I'll agree that Purina is good feed, but I'd bet you can get it
> cheaper somewhere other than Walmart.

No other store around here sells the pouches cheaper than Walmart. I don't
like Walmart either, but I will always shop where the prices are lowest.

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Tues, Sep 16 2008 10:27 am
From: George

h wrote:
> "Mark Anderson" <mea@nospambrandylion.com> wrote in message
> news:MPG.2338fa0ab294d54a989ac3@chi.news.speakeasy.net...
>> In article letterman@invalid.com says...
>>> Has anyone noticed that almost all of these contaminated and recalled
>>> human and pet foods in recent years is ALWAYS the stuff sold at
>>> Walmart. Just one of several reasons I will not buy any foods from
>>> Walmart anymore.
>>>
>>> The following are sold at Walmart
>>> * Pedigree
>>> * Ol' Roy
>>> * PetPride
>>> * Special Kitty
>
> My two cats were poisoned last March by the Special Kitty (Walmart) pouch
> brand. They both lived, but they're still on meds and I'm out over $3k and
> climbing. I still buy pouch cat food at Walmart, but only Purina brand,
> since Purina (supposedly) controls all the ingredients of their products,
> and nothing comes from China.
>
>
So far, Walmart will keep on demanding lower prices to maintain their
margin each time they reorder as they do with all of their suppliers
and who knows what the supplier will do. Supporting Walmart only
encourages this type of behavior.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Tag Heuer 6000 Watches: Quality TAG Heuer Discount Watches
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/3e7bc9a2964af66f?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Sep 16 2008 2:22 am
From: blog647@watchesblog.cn

Tag Heuer 6000 Watches: Quality TAG Heuer Discount Watches

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Tag Heuer 6000 Series Mens Watch WH1111.BA0675
http://tag-heuer-watches.pxhelp.com/TAG-Heuer-wristwatch-7246.html

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Citizen Elektra Watches: Quality Citizen Discount Watches
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/15b96a0b9a6b3f39?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Sep 16 2008 2:22 am
From: blog647@watchesblog.cn

Citizen Elektra Watches: Quality Citizen Discount Watches

Quality Citizen Elektra Watches http://citizen-watches.pxhelp.com/citizen-elektra.html

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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Invicta Transatlantic Watches: Quality Invicta Discount Watches
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/4108e284bba16072?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Sep 16 2008 2:22 am
From: blog647@watchesblog.cn

Invicta Transatlantic Watches: Quality Invicta Discount Watches

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2442/BLUE http://invicta-watches.pxhelp.com/Invicta-wristwatch-3585.html

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Stock market giants Merrill Lynch and Lehman Bros go down, rest of the
economy soon to follow
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/aaffd4c059002480?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Sep 16 2008 2:27 am
From: hpope@lycos.com

On Sep 15, 4:14 pm, Thaddeus Stevens <thaddeussteph...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> ||| Ever read about those days in the 1930's when there was a 'bank holiday'? After the
> holiday, the banks opened and billions of dollars (trillions in today's money), had vanished
> down the rabbit hole. Get your stuff while the gettin's good. Now! |||
>
> While offering to help Wall Street organize a shotgun marriage for Lehman, both the Fed
> chairman, Ben S. Bernanke, and Mr. Paulson had warned that they would not put taxpayer money at
> risk simply to prevent a Lehman collapse.
>
> The message marked a major change in strategy but it remained unclear until at least Friday what
> would happen. "They were faced after Bear Stearns with the problem of where to draw the line,"
> said Laurence H. Meyer, a former Fed governor who is now vice chairman of Macroeconomic
> Advisors, a forecasting firm. "It became clear that this piecemeal, patchwork, case-by-case
> approach might not get the job done."
>
> Both Mr. Paulson and Mr. Bernanke worried that they had already gone much further than they had
> ever wanted, first by underwriting the takeover of Bear Stearns in March and by the far bigger
> bailout of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.
>
> Outside the public eye, Fed officials had acquired much more information since March about the
> interconnections and cross-exposure to risk among Wall Street investment banks, hedge funds and
> traders in the vast market for credit-default swaps and other derivatives. In the end, both Wall
> Street and the Fed blinked.
>
> Lehman Files for Bankruptcy; Merrill Is Sold
> By ANDREW ROSS SORKIN
>
> This article was reported by Jenny Anderson, Eric Dash and Andrew Ross Sorkin and was written by
> Mr. Sorkin.
>
> In one of the most dramatic days in Wall Street's history, Merrill Lynch agreed to sell itself
> on Sunday to Bank of America for roughly $50 billion to avert a deepening financial crisis,
> while another prominent securities firm, Lehman Brothers, filed for bankruptcy protection and
> hurtled toward liquidation after it failed to find a buyer.
>
> The humbling moves, which reshape the landscape of American finance, mark the latest chapter in
> a tumultuous year in which once-proud financial institutions have been brought to their knees as
> a result of hundreds of billions of dollars in losses because of bad mortgage finance and real
> estate investments.
>
> But even as the fates of Lehman and Merrill hung in the balance, another crisis loomed as the
> insurance giant American International Group appeared to teeter. Staggered by losses stemming
> from the credit crisis, A.I.G. sought a $40 billion lifeline from the Federal Reserve, without
> which the company may have only days to survive.
>
> The stunning series of events culminated a weekend of frantic around-the-clock negotiations, as
> Wall Street bankers huddled in meetings at the behest of Bush administration officials to try to
> avoid a downward spiral in the markets stemming from a crisis of confidence.
>
> "My goodness. I've been in the business 35 years, and these are the most extraordinary events
> I've ever seen," said Peter G. Peterson, co-founder of the private equity firm the Blackstone
> Group, who was head of Lehman in the 1970s and a secretary of commerce in the Nixon administration.
>
> It remains to be seen whether the sale of Merrill, which was worth more than $100 billion during
> the last year, and the controlled demise of Lehman will be enough to finally turn the tide in
> the yearlong financial crisis that has crippled Wall Street and threatened the broader economy.
>
> Early Monday morning, Lehman said it would file for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection in New York
> for its holding company in what would be the largest failure of an investment bank since the
> collapse of Drexel Burnham Lambert 18 years ago, the Associated Press reported.
>
> Questions remain about how the market will react Monday, particularly to Lehman's plan to wind
> down its trading operations, and whether other companies, like A.I.G. and Washington Mutual, the
> nation's largest savings and loan, might falter.
>
> Indeed, in a move that echoed Wall Street's rescue of a big hedge fund a decade ago this week,
> 10 major banks agreed to create an emergency fund of $70 billion to $100 billion that financial
> institutions can use to protect themselves from the fallout of Lehman's failure.
>
> The Fed, meantime, broadened the terms of its emergency loan program for Wall Street banks, a
> move that could ultimately put taxpayers' money at risk.
>
> Though the government took control of the troubled mortgage finance companies Fannie Mae and
> Freddie Mac only a week ago, investors have become increasingly nervous about whether major
> financial institutions can recover from their losses.
>
> How things play out could affect the broader economy, which has been weakening steadily as the
> financial crisis has deepened over the last year, with unemployment increasing as the nation's
> growth rate has slowed.
>
> What will happen to Merrill's 60,000 employees or Lehman's 25,000 employees remains unclear.
> Worried about the unfolding crisis and its potential impact on New York City's economy, Mayor
> Michael R. Bloomberg canceled a trip to California to meet with Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger.
> Instead, aides said, Mr. Bloomberg spent much of the weekend working the phones, talking to
> federal officials and bank executives in an effort to gauge the severity of the crisis.
>
> The weekend that humbled Lehman and Merrill Lynch and rewarded Bank of America, based in
> Charlotte, N.C., began at 6 p.m. Friday in the first of a series of emergency meetings at the
> Federal Reserve building in Lower Manhattan.
>
> The meeting was called by Fed officials, with Treasury Secretary Henry M. Paulson Jr. in
> attendance, and it included top bankers. The Treasury and Federal Reserve had already stepped in
> on several occasions to rescue the financial system, forcing a shotgun marriage between Bear
> Stearns and JPMorgan Chase this year and backstopping $29 billion worth of troubled assets — and
> then agreeing to bail out Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.
>
> The bankers were told that the government would not bail out Lehman and that it was up to Wall
> Street to solve its problems. Lehman's stock tumbled sharply last week as concerns about its
> financial condition grew and other firms started to pull back from doing business with it,
> threatening its viability.
>
> Without government backing, Lehman began trying to find a buyer, focusing on Barclays, the big
> British bank, and Bank of America. At the same time, other Wall Street executives grew more
> concerned about their own precarious situation.
>
> The fates of Merrill Lynch and Lehman Brothers would not seem to be linked; Merrill has the
> nation's largest brokerage force and its name is known in towns across America, while Lehman's
> main customers are big institutions. But during the credit boom both firms piled into risky real
> estate and ended up severely weakened, with inadequate capital and toxic assets.
>
> Knowing that investors were worried about Merrill, John A. Thain, its chief executive and an
> alumnus of Goldman Sachs and the New York Stock Exchange, and Kenneth D. Lewis, Bank of
> America's chief executive, began negotiations. One person briefed on the negotiations said Bank
> of America had approached Merrill earlier in the summer but Mr. Thain had rebuffed the offer.
> Now, prompted by the reality that a Lehman bankruptcy would ripple through Wall Street and
> further cripple Merrill Lynch, the two parties proceeded with discussions.
>
> On Sunday morning, Mr. Thain and Mr. Lewis cemented the deal. It could not be determined if Mr.
> Thain would play a role in the new company, but two people briefed on the negotiations said they
> did not expect him to stay. Merrill's "thundering herd" of 17,000 brokers will be combined with
> Bank of America's smaller group of wealth advisers and called Merrill Lynch Wealth Management.
>
> For Bank of America, which this year bought Countrywide Financial, the troubled mortgage lender,
> the purchase of Merrill puts it at the pinnacle of American finance, making it the biggest
> brokerage house and consumer banking franchise.
>
> Bank of America eventually pulled out of its talks with Lehman after the government refused to
> take responsibility for losses on some of Lehman's most troubled real-estate assets, something
> it agreed to do when JP Morgan Chase bought Bear Stearns to save it from a bankruptcy filing in
> March.
>
> A leading proposal to rescue Lehman would have divided the bank into two entities, a "good bank"
> and a "bad bank." Under that scenario, Barclays would have bought the parts of Lehman that have
> been performing well, while a group of 10 to 15 Wall Street companies would have agreed to
> absorb losses from the bank's troubled assets, to two people briefed on the proposal said.
> Taxpayer money would not have been included in such a deal, they said.
>
> Other Wall Street banks also balked at the deal, unhappy at facing potential losses while Bank
> of America or Barclays walked away with the potentially profitable part of Lehman at a cheap price.
>
> For Lehman, the end essentially came Sunday morning when its last potential suitor, Barclays,
> pulled out from a deal, saying it could not obtain a shareholder vote to approve a transaction
> before Monday morning, something required under London Stock Exchange listing rules, one person
> close to the matter said. Other people involved in the talks said the Financial Services
> Authority, the British securities regulator, had discouraged Barclays from pursuing a deal.
> Peter Truell, a spokesman for Barclays, declined to comment. Lehman's subsidiaries were expected
> to remain solvent while the firm liquidates its holdings, these people said. Herbert H. McDade
> III, Lehman's president, was at the Federal Reserve Bank in New York late Sunday, discussing
> terms of Lehman's fate with government officials.
>
> Lehman's filing is unlikely to resemble those of other companies that seek bankruptcy
> protection. Because of the harsher treatment that federal bankruptcy law applies to
> financial-services firms, Lehman cannot hope to reorganize and survive. It was not clear whether
> the government would appoint a trustee to supervise Lehman's liquidation or how big the
> financial backstop would be.
>
> Lehman has retained the law firm Weil, Gotshal & Manges as its bankruptcy counsel.
>
> The collapse of Lehman is a devastating end for Richard S. Fuld Jr., the chief executive, who
> has led the bank since it emerged from American Express as a public company in 1994. Mr. Fuld,
> who steered Lehman through near-death experiences in the past, spent the last several days in
> his 31st floor office in Lehman's midtown headquarters on the phone from 6 a.m. until well past
> midnight trying to save the firm, a person close to the matter said.
>
> A.I.G. will be the next test. Ratings agencies threatened to downgrade A.I.G.'s credit rating if
> it does not raise $40 billion by Monday morning, a step that would cripple the company. A.I.G.
> had hoped to shore itself up, in party by selling certain businesses, but potential bidders,
> including the private investment firms Kohlberg Kravis Roberts and TPG, withdrew at the last
> minute because the government refused to provide a financial guarantee for the purchase. A.I.G.
> rejected an offer by another investor, J. C. Flowers & Company.
>
> The weekend's events indicate that top officials at the Federal Reserve and the Treasury are
> taking a harder line on providing government support of troubled financial institutions.
>
> While offering to help Wall Street organize a shotgun marriage for Lehman, both the Fed
> chairman, Ben S. Bernanke, and Mr. Paulson had warned that they would not put taxpayer money at
> risk simply to prevent a Lehman collapse.
>
> The message marked a major change in strategy but it remained unclear until at least Friday what
> would happen. "They were faced after Bear Stearns with the problem of where to draw the line,"
> said Laurence H. Meyer, a former Fed governor who is now vice chairman of Macroeconomic
> Advisors, a forecasting firm. "It became clear that this piecemeal, patchwork, case-by-case
> approach might not get the job done."
>
> Both Mr. Paulson and Mr. Bernanke worried that they had already gone much further than they had
> ever wanted, first by underwriting the takeover of Bear Stearns in March and by the far bigger
> bailout of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.
>
> Outside the public eye, Fed officials had acquired much more information since March about the
> interconnections and cross-exposure to risk among Wall Street investment banks, hedge funds and
> traders in the vast market for credit-default swaps and other derivatives. In the end, both Wall
> Street and the Fed blinked.
>
> Reporting was contributed by Edmund L. Andrews, Eric Dash, Michael Barbaro, Michael J. de la
> Merced, Louise Story and Ben White. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/15/business/15lehman.html?em=&pagewant...
>
> *******************************************************************
> The Fundamentals Are Not Sound ...
> A Temporary Respite from Permanent Decline
>
> By PAUL CRAIG ROBERTShttp://www.counterpunch.org/
>
> Americans were alarmed last June as the price of oil raced toward $150 per barrel. Today, as the
> price falls toward $100, Americans feel relieved. They have forgotten that prior to the Bush
> regime's wars, the price of oil was $30 per barrel.
>
> Similarly with the dollar. Despair ruled as the dollar fell to 1.6 to 1 euro. Now with the
> dollar's rise to 1.4 to 1 euro, relief bathes the markets. The fact that the dollar will never
> return to parity with the euro is out of sight and out of mind.
>
> In declines, as in rises, speculation can run ahead of fundamentals. Just as speculators in oil
> futures markets can drive the price too high, currency speculators can drive a currency too low.
>
> The dollar's problems are the enormous US trade and budget deficits and the fact that there
> appears to be no way to close either. Offshoring of US manufacturing and service jobs has
> enlarged the trade deficit while shrinking the domestic income tax base. In addition to its
> energy imports, the US has large trade deficits in manufactures.
>
> When inflation is properly measured, the US economy has experienced little, if any, real
> economic growth in the 21st century. Yet, according to economist Joseph Stiglitz, the total cost
> of the Bush regime's wars in behalf of US and Israeli hegemony is $3 trillion. Without a rapidly
> expanding economy, there are insufficient tax revenues to cover these costs.
>
> The US is dependent on foreigners to finance its $600 billion annual government budget deficit
> and its $800 billion annual trade deficit. The US government relies on foreigners to recycle
> their $800 billion trade surplus dollars to buy US Treasury bonds and mortgage debt.
>
> Foreigners were becoming reluctant to continue the same rate of recycling. This reluctance
> contributed to the dollar's slide and to the worsening situation of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac,
> which need to issue their own bonds in order to support their mortgage holdings.
>
> The US Treasury took steps to avert, or perhaps more accurately to push off into the future, a
> crisis. Foreign central banks agreed to purchase dollars so that low US interest rates could
> persist through the November election. HIgh interest rates now would make the mortgage crisis
> unmanageable.
>
> To keep the recycling going, the US Treasury took the mortgage giants under its wing in order to
> reassure foreign investors. According to a September 8 Reuters report from Beijing, "China owned
> $376 billion of debt issued by US government agencies, principally Fannie and Freddie, as of
> mid-2007."
>
> If the Treasury's new relationship with Fannie and Freddie implies a guarantee of the bad
> mortgages as well as the bonds issued by the two companies, it is possible that the Treasury has
> put at risk its own ability to borrow.
>
> The Treasury already has to borrow $600 billion a year to finance the operations of the US
> government. How much in addition will the Treasury need to borrow, or co-sign, in order to keep
> the two companies afloat and to keep mortgages from defaulting?
>
> The total could be greater than the US Treasury's credibility.
>
> It remains to be seen whether the Treasury has put troubled debt on the same footing as its own
> or brought trouble to Treasury bonds.
>
> If the latter, America's superpower days are over, and the world will be spared the neocons'
> hegemonic wars.
>
> Paul Craig Roberts was Assistant Secretary of the Treasury in the Reagan administration. He was
> Associate Editor of the Wall Street Journal editorial page and Contributing Editor of National
> Review. He is coauthor of The Tyranny of Good Intentions. He can be reached at:
> PaulCraigRobe...@yahoo.com
> __________________________________________________________________
> - - - -> More political discussion continues athttp://www.usaliberalism.com/
> - - -> View pictures of Michigan's Rouge River athttp://epitomephotos.com/rougeriver/
> __________________________________________________________________
>
> A reasonably just and well-ordered democratic society might be possible, and . . . justice as
> fairness should have a special place among the political conceptions in its political and social
> world. . . [M]any are prepared to accept the conclusion that a just and well-ordered democratic
> society is not possible, and even regard it as obvious. Isn't admitting it part of growing up,
> part of the inevitable loss of innocence? But is this conclusion one we can so easily accept?
> The answer we give to the question of whether a just democratic society is possible and
> can be stable for the right reasons affects our background thoughts and attitudes about the
> world as a whole. And it affects these thoughts and attitudes before we come to actual politics,
> and limits or inspires how we take part in it. . .
> If we take for granted as common knowledge that a just and well-ordered democratic society
> is impossible, then the quality and tone of those attitudes will reflect that knowledge. A cause
> of the fall of Wiemar's constitutional regime was that none of the traditional elites of Germany
> supported its constitution or were willing to cooperate to make it work. They no longer
> believed a decent liberal parliamentary regime was possible. Its time had past.
>
> The regime fell first to a series of authoritarian cabinet governments from 1930 to 1932. When
> these were increasingly weakened by their lack of popular support, President Hindenburg was
> finally persuaded to turn to Hitler, who had such support and whom conservatives thought they
> could control.
> ~ John Rawls "Political Liberalism" pg. lx
>
> __________________________________________________________________
>
> "Let me give you a word of the philosophy of reform. The whole history of the progress of human
> liberty shows that all concessions yet made to her august claims, have been born of earnest
> struggle. The conflict has been exciting, agitating, all-absorbing, and for the time being,
> putting all other tumults to silence. It must do this or it does nothing. If there is no
> struggle there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom and yet depreciate agitation,
> are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and
> lightening. They want the ocean without the awful roar of its many waters."
>
> "This struggle may be a moral one, or it may be a physical one, and it may be both moral and
> physical, but it must be a struggle. Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and
> it never will. Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have found out the
> exact measure of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them, and these will continue
> till they are resisted with either words or blows, or with both. The limits of tyrants are
> prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress. In the light of these ideas, Negroes
> will be hunted at the North, and held and flogged at the South so long as they submit to those
> devilish outrages, and make no resistance, either moral or physical. Men may not get all they
> pay for in this world; but they must certainly pay for all they get. If we ever get free from
> the oppressions and wrongs heaped upon us, we must pay for their removal. We must do this by
> labor, by suffering, by sacrifice, and if needs be, by our lives and the lives of others."http://www.buildingequality.us/Quotes/Frederick_Douglass.htm
> Frederick Douglass, 1857
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> This post contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always been specifically
> authorized by the copyright owner. I am making such material available in my efforts to advance
> understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and
> social justice issues, etc. I believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted
> material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17
> U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without profit to those who have
> expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational
> purposes.
> For more information go to:http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml. If you wish
> to use copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own that go beyond 'fair use',
> you must obtain permission from the copyright owner.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: FS: Video Games & More - Auctions Ending Today
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/108797817806a44b?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Sep 16 2008 2:36 am
From: ClothesOut

Check out the items I recently listed:
- New black Sony PlayStation 3 SIXAXIS Wireless Controller - $29.99
- PS3 Burnout Paradise Video Game (Used) - $19.99
- PS3 Grand Theft Auto IV Video Game (Used) - $23
- Used Boys Soul Taker Halloween Costume (sz. 10-12) - $14.99

To view the descriptions and bid, go to http://myworld.ebay.com/helporgs
Auctions end today.

- visuals4u

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Sep 16 2008 2:31 am
From: Petepenguin@webtv.net (P T)

In a similar vein, I read an article about a man near me who rigged up a
series of pipes, chutes, and a large container, to store rain water that
ran off his roof, for reuse in the garden. Not only that, but he
convinced his two neighbors to allow him to channel their run off into
his cistern also.

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Sep 16 2008 4:12 am
From: krw

In article <weqdnUPrb--lSlPVnZ2dnUVZ_q3inZ2d@earthlink.com>,
lhartswick@earthlink.net says...
> SMS wrote:
> > spaco wrote:
> >
> >> Of course, this had absolutely NOTHING to do with vacuuming your
> >> rug, but that's how the game can be played without anyone actually
> >> having to go to jail.
> >
> >
> > Wait, you mean the amount of power the motor draws doesn't directly
> > correlate with suction? Who woulda thunk that?
> >
> > Reminds me back when "transistor" radios competed by counting transistors.

A friend, who was taking a watchmaking class, once showed me a "23
jewel" watch. It was a typical 17 jewel swiss movement (worht about
$10, at the time) with 6 garbage jewels taped to the rear case.

> And if you are a little (maybe a lot) older the radios, especially
> by "Midwest" (as I remember the name), were competing by the number
> of tubes. In some cases I think only with the heaters connected. :-)

Weren't they all "five tube wonders"? Dangerous things! 50% chance
of the metal chasis being live. The only thing between the operator
and 120V was the plastic knob.

--
Keith

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Sep 16 2008 5:08 am
From: Al Bundy

Kevin wrote:
> If you are looking for a wonderful blog that gives you details about
> the George Foreman Grill, The Lean Mean Grilling Machine. You will find it to be helpful
> to finding grill information and recipes.

I wouldn't be near a George Foreman Grill if George himself offered to
come out to my house and cook dinner for me.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Sep 16 2008 11:08 am
From: chief_thracian@yahoo.com (Chief Thracian)

On Mon, 15 Sep 2008 04:19:20 -0700 (PDT), Kevin <kevmarket@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>If you are looking for a wonderful blog that gives you details about
>the George Foreman Grill, The Lean Mean Grilling Machine. You can
>find it at www.GeorgeGrill.muxgo.com. You will find it to be helpful
>to finding grill information and recipes.

I don't see anything there, like you describe. Certainly, no
"details". The blog is a ruse. You need to change the blog's subtitle
from "Everything about the George Foreman Grill" to "Nothing about the
George Foreman Grill".

--
Steal This Blog!
http://www.gay-bible.org/steal

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Sep 16 2008 7:27 am
From: David Smart

This is a disgusting little story,no-body has the right to sit in
Judgemant of you or of anybody else for that matter.I work
with AIDS Sufferers who hav ecaught the Virus through IV Drug abuse
and sometimes we do get complaints about the
dispensing Chemists and their attitude.I would find and get in touch
with your local ombudsman who will correct this on your behalf.I would
still go to this Chemist although i know some of the tricks they try
and get up to,like making you wait for ages,or getting your medication
mixed up etc etc.

Good luck I hope things turn for you,and by the way not every-body in
the World has attitudes like this.These arseholes
hate just about anything that is why they are so messed up.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Sep 16 2008 10:57 am
From: "Rod Speed"

David Smart <flanneryged@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> This is a disgusting little story,no-body has the right to sit
> in Judgemant of you or of anybody else for that matter.

Wrong with something like HIV/AIDS when its so clear how you get it and how to avoid getting it.

> I work with AIDS Sufferers who hav ecaught the Virus through IV Drug abuse

More fool them. Anyone with a clue knows the risk with needle sharing.

> and sometimes we do get complaints about the dispensing Chemists and their attitude.

They clearly have decided that only a fool shares needles.

> I would find and get in touch with your local ombudsman who will correct this on your behalf.

They have no effect what so ever on attitude.

> I would still go to this Chemist although i know some of the tricks they try
> and get up to,like making you wait for ages,or getting your medication
> mixed up etc etc.

Thanks for that completely superfluous proof of what a fool you are.

> Good luck I hope things turn for you,and by the way not every-body in
> the World has attitudes like this.These arseholes
> hate just about anything that is why they are so messed up.

They just think that only fools can get HIV/AIDS. They're right.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Reviving dried-out typewriter ribbon
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/89180a8ec5f21724?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Sep 16 2008 8:24 am
From: Community Organizer

In article <48cf2608.4689245@amsterdam.newsgroups-download.com>,
chief_thracian@yahoo.com (Chief Thracian) wrote:

> On Tue, 5 Aug 2008 10:07:20 -0700 (PDT), Cindy Hamilton
> <angelicapaganelli@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >So, what kind of emergency do you envision
> >wherein electricity would be unavailable and
> >yet typewriting would be important?
>
> You're a prisoner in a fortune cookie factory? :b

i did print up my own "fortune cookie" fortune once.
as a joke on my wife. I pretended to drop my cooky at the restaurant and
pulled up my own printout.
No, I won't tell you what it said.
Use your imagination.

Perverts!
--
If guns are out-lawed. Only the Out-laws & politicians will have guns.

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Sep 16 2008 8:25 am
From: Community Organizer

we were looking at a property in town to move to if and when we sell our
homestead or I die and the wife wants to be closer to services.
But we don't want to sell the country place and finding a Reverse
Mortgage is proving difficult. The place doesn't qualify under HUD rules.
So, I thought an Exchange of properties. the R.M. for possession of the
place in town.
Is there a book on how to do that? Do you need a broker that specializes?
--
If guns are out-lawed. Only the Out-laws & politicians will have guns.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Canada knows how to sue the crap out of GM..
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/44e93fc0504e04e4?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Sep 16 2008 8:30 am
From: "misterfact@yahoo.com"

..for the crap GM makes:

> > http://yahoo.reuters.com/stocks/Quot...ol=GM.N&rpc=44

> DETROIT — General Motors Corp. has agreed to settle 17 Canadian
> lawsuits that contend that a defective part in cars made between 1995
> and 2003 caused engines to overheat and seize, a lawyer for the
> plaintiffs said. Colin Stevenson, a lawyer for the plaintiffs, said
> yesterday that GM will pay car owners $47 to $752 each for costs of
> repairs related to a faulty engine gasket
>
> I shoulda gone toCANADAand bought my SATURN- PIECE OF CRAP with the
> casting flaw in the cylinderhead !!! (instead of Saturn or Grand
> Rapids, Mi)
>
> so shoulda the 100,000 other casting flaw victims who bought Saturns
> in the U.S. !!

==============================================================================
TOPIC: martha
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/ccc037dde74d13f6?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Sep 16 2008 10:02 am
From: Derald

I'm certainly not much of a teevee person, much less a daytime teevee
person (well, except for "The Young and the Restless") but who else here
finds Martha Stewart absolutely fascinating? She has one of the most
finely-tuned, best controlled "type 'A'" personalities available to the
average voyeur-aficionado. Hell, I even watch her "Everyday Foods"
series that is presented by my local PBS affiliate....

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Sep 16 2008 9:43 am
From: Jeff

clams_casino wrote:
> timeOday wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> "Personal Rate of Return from 01/01/2008 to 09/12/2008 is -16.2%"
>>
>>
>> Yeow. And this isn't some crazy hedge fund, it's a collection of
>> index funds.

It looks to me that the DJIA is just about where it was 7 1/2 years ago.
>>
>> It's a good thing we know wealth doesn't equal happiness around here, eh?
>>
>> All I can say is, it's a good thing I'm too young to retire anytime soon.
>
>
> Remember when the Republican rage was to replace social security and
> pensions with stock market investments?

No one is talking about that gem anymore.

The main trouble with the SS trust fund is that the government has
"borrowed" it to run other branches of government. In effect it is
backed by treasury bonds.

All that is fine when you have a modicum of fiscal responsibility.
Traditionally taxes go down to boost the economy when needed (they never
pay for themselves) and when the economy improves, money should go back
in. What we have had has been a continuous drain such that there is no
money for this rainy day. The administration has consistently taken the
foolish bet that everything is rosy and nothing needs to paid for when
it can be borrowed.

Wallstreet has made much of the same bet. Greed drove them to take
the easy money. Many of them just assumed that everything would be
rosy, after all, things were going their way. No one stopped to really
look at the collateral that backed up these bets because it would get in
the way of making the money.

It shouldn't have taken a rocket scientist to see that there was not
just a housing bubble but an SUV bubble and a credit bubble brewing.

Jeff

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Sep 16 2008 11:24 am
From: hchickpea@hotmail.com

On Tue, 16 Sep 2008 05:15:38 +0000 (UTC), don@manx.misty.com (Don
Klipstein) wrote:

>In <fqguc41nngv5034nvnivd21u6t2eq33ji5@4ax.com>, hchickpea@hotmail.com
>wrote:
>>On Tue, 16 Sep 2008 03:50:02 +0000 (UTC), don@manx.misty.com (Don
>>Klipstein) wrote:
>>
>>> If you distrust the USA stock market to fare well in the modern world,
>>>then invest into broad diverse international stock mutual funds!
>>
>>Don, the problems are global at this point. Citing past performance
>>of the market isn't a valid barometer anymore. The performance of the
>>stock market(s) has not been actual performance for a number of years,
>>probably starting in the Nixon years.
>
> The USA broad stock market has actrually done fairly well from the 1971
>high to now.

It has done so on increasingly unreal money.

>> In the more recent past, the
>>combination of derivatives and unsafe lending practices has
>>artificially inflated the market and the values of certain key
>>companies. Derivatives should NEVER have been allowed as financial
>>instruments.
>
> This appears to me to be a modern-time-specific USA-specific problem.
>Broad market stock investing over larger timeframes and/or larger portion
>of the industrialized world solves that.

Sorry, but this is incorrect. Derivatives are involved too much in
the support of multi-nationals, especially in banking, real estate,
and insurance to make this a solution.

> Keep in mind that derivatives are not a part of any major stock index,
>and major/significant stock index mutual funds only use derivatives to
>at most the extent to simulate 100% investment into the indexed stocks
>while keeping some cash on hand for handling withdrawals.

Exactly the point. Derivatives just snuck in under the radar and grew
way out of proportion, based on rosey projections of the future.
"Risk" was sold at bargain basement prices, and those buying the risk
incurred huge exposure. When only a few of those risks were called
in, everything worked. It now appears that a tipping point has been
reached with just residential real estate corrections, and that
solidity of core institutions is now undermined beyond the ability for
some of them to recover from the blow, much less any added strain. As
each one falls, it adds to the burdens of others, and the government
can only do so much to prop the losers up.

>>Monday's market going down was bad, but if things go the way I expect,
>>a retrenchment back to a resistance point on the DOW at 10,000 is
>>likely, and then if that is broken, down to the 7,000 mark -
>>_provided_ that the market plunge doesn't irreperably break some of
>>the manufacturing sector. Retail will be messy, but can sort itself
>>out over time.
>>
>>Be aware that if WaMu fails, there will be some serious stress on the
>>FDIC, which is only funded to 50B. The amount of insured deposits
>>that money has to cover in all insured banks is on the order of 1T.
>>If Congress ups the funding to the FDIC, that will be a big signal
>>that money will soon start being worth a lot less, and there could be
>>more unraveling of the phantom economy.
>>
>>I hope the heck that my concerns from well over a year ago don't prove
>>to be valid, since I don't see any indication that either of the two
>>candidates is capable of pulling us out of the swamp.
>>
>>One thing that *really* bugs me is that the media keeps calling our
>>economic woes a "Crisis of Confidence" as if it was the fault of the
>>average Joe not believeing in Peter Pan hard enough. More accurately,
>>it is a "Crisis of Con Games," where the cons of the past bankers,
>>economists, and government entities are being exposed to the light of
>>day and have begun dissolving.
>
> The USA stock market has provided good returns even through the Great
>Depression, WWII and Nixon and Carter!

Nixon flipped off the idea of gold reserves matching currency, to
promote the economy and pay off debts. The gains in the market after
that point have been partly real gains, and partly paper gains with no
underlying substance. Once derivatives came into play, questionable
value was resold numerous times. A mortgage and the associated fees
(profit) could be generated, then sold off, along with the risk, and
the process repeated.

If you can sell 1,000 widgets and get a profit of a few thousand on
each sale of a widget, then sell off the support of those widgets and
the risk of widget failure for a minimal amount, you don't care how
many defective widgets that you sell. FM&FM choked from defective
widgets, a bunch of banks were choked, and some offshore investors
were choked.

FM&FM and the offshore investors are not as big an issue as the banks.
The banks are not only stock companies, but hold the purse for other
companies. No purse means no growth, means general market
instability, means leveraged companies failing, etc.. Offshore
investors may pull back, which I view as a good thing, and the
government can handle FM&FM for a while, but when a bank suddenly
poofs out of existence, a bunch of businesses are left scrambling in a
tight market.

> If you think that America is now going down long-term, then invest in
>index or otherwise-well-diversified funds that are international in
>nature!

I don't see that as working. The markets are just too intermingled.
I also don't think that the reaction of the market is currently
following any single overriding logic, but is dominated by players
using a few high profile theories of investment and a lot of praying.

Part of what concerns me is that the corrections in the housing sector
have strained the resources of the financial sector, and the fall of
parts of the financial sector exacerbates the pressure on insurance,
which depends on a rising market. Insurance now has humongous pay
outs coming due from both Gustav and Ike, to the tune of billions, in
a down market. Reserves won't cover all the losses, and forward
borrowing will be limited.

As insurance isn't capable of making claim pay outs (much less
stockholder profits), and financials seek less risk in investments,
money will dry up for manufacturing and other businesses. The Fed
lowering the borrowing rate is already not getting passed through to
the end borrowers, but is being used by financial institutions to
bring some correction to their own books. A further lowering will do
little to stimulate the economy.

So what happens next? Money for lending dries up, insurance rates
rise, and more money is printed, lowering its value and increasing
prices.

The near term fetish object has already been exposed. Oil
distributors just made a majorly stupid profit play on gasoline after
Ike that will put them in the near-term spotlight and focus public
wrath on them. Both candidates and congress will call for various
cures to the "crisis of oil" that sound great but don't address the
underlying issues of the greater problem. We could see new regulation
of oil, or even a nationalization of it until the "crisis" (as seen by
the public and politicians) has passed. In the meantime, huge sums
will evaporate into thin air and thousands of retirees will be looking
for work in a high unemployment market.

At this point, it should be obvious to all that we don't have
capitalism, nor just a managed economy, but a form of socialism for
corporations with no significant consequences for mis-steps by
corporate leaders. When McCain says that the strength of the economy
rests in the work ethic of the American people, he is repeating the
message of the czars that the strength of Russia lies in the peasants.
Peasants can starve with little consequence to the ruling class. When
Obama singles out the past presidency for creating the problem, he
shows an unwillingness to recognize the greater problems created by
both sides of the aisle.

As much as I hate to say it, China may have the right idea of shooting
corrupt officials and business owners. Without some consequence for
the worst crimes, we can only expect greater offenses.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: NFIB Introduces Small Business Simulation: Johnny Money Online Game
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/99edacdbc3952d2f?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Sep 16 2008 10:00 am
From: Start Small

09/11/2008

CONTACT: Melissa Sharp, 202-314 -2068
NFIB Young Entrepreneur Foundation's small business simulation game
shows high school students what it's like to run their own small
business.
WASHINGTON, D.C. -- Just in time for the 2008-2009 school year, the
National Federation of Independent Business Young Entrepreneur
Foundation, in conjunction with the Societal Wealth Program of the
Wharton School at the University of Pennsylvania, has created a new
small business computer game designed to show high school students
what it's like to run their own small business.
Johnny Money Online Game (JMOG) is an interactive small business
simulation designed to enhance high school students' exploration of
entrepreneurship. The online game is presented through flash-based
Internet technology and allows students to learn about the day-to-day
functions of entrepreneurs and small business owners.
NFIB's Young Entrepreneurship Foundation has partnered with the
Societal Wealth Program of Wharton Entrepreneurial Programs to develop
the game's academic standards. Prof. Ian C. MacMillan, co-director of
the Societal Wealth Program, lead a team of graduate and undergraduate
students in working with YEF to make the entrepreneurship simulation a
resourceful tool for teachers to use in the classroom to show students
what it's like to run their own small business.
"In order to teach high school students to think like entrepreneurs,
teachers can use innovative tools like Johnny Money to inspire
students to take charge of their lives by building their own careers,"
said MacMillan. "The Johnny Money simulation game introduces students
to business concepts in a virtual setting that teaches students to
figure out how their decisions impact their business' bottom line. The
game allows any student from any high school in every demographic
category to aspire to start a business, design it, and learn from
multiple failures and successes of running their own virtual small
business."
"We are very excited to be working with Wharton in creating and
launching Johnny Money," said Hank Kopcial, executive director of
NFIB's Young Entrepreneur Foundation. "Wharton is recognized
nationwide as the leader in business education. Their expertise has
helped make the game user friendly for students and teachers while
ensuring that it is educationally sound. NFIB's Young Entrepreneur
Foundation and Wharton have created Johnny Money to be a fun and
competitive virtual game that students can play to learn key concepts
about running a small business. We can't wait for teachers to start
using our game as a tool to teach students about entrepreneurship."
Teachers, students and anyone interested in testing their skills at
running a small business can visit www.johnnymoney.com to start
playing the game. Click on the Play Now button for the game to start.
The Buddy Group, a digital creative agency headquartered in Irvine,
California, has been working with YEF to develop the game. Visa is Co-
Presenting Sponsor of the NFIB Entrepreneur-in-the-Classroom programs
which includes Johnny Money Online Game, Entrepreneur-in-the-Classroom
Curriculum and Take Time to Teach -- mentoring program. All programs
are FREE resources available online for teachers to teach students
about entrepreneurship.
About the Wharton School and Wharton Entrepreneurial Programs
In 1973, The Wharton School became the first school to develop a fully
integrated curriculum of entrepreneurial studies. Today Wharton,
through Wharton Entrepreneurial Programs, supports and seeds
innovation and entrepreneurship globally through teaching, research
and outreach to a range of organizations through its many programs,
initiatives and research centers. At the same time, Wharton students
and alumni are helping to build entrepreneurial enterprises around the
world and impacting virtually every industry.
The Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania -- founded in
1881 as the first collegiate business school -- is recognized globally
for intellectual leadership and ongoing innovation across every major
discipline of business education. The most comprehensive source of
business knowledge in the world, Wharton bridges research and practice
through its broad engagement with the global business community. The
school has more than 4,600 undergraduate, MBA, executive MBA, and
doctoral students; more than 8,000 annual participants in executive
education programs; and an alumni network of more than 82,000
graduates.
For more information on the Wharton Business Plan Competition, go to:
http://bpc.wharton.upenn.edu.
For more information about NFIB, go to http://www.nfib.com/object/IO_38451

==============================================================================
TOPIC: www.ciciaaa.cn Bape, bbc, 10 deep, ggg, lrg, ed, ca, antkul dodgen,
affliction, kidrobot, coogi hoodies Options
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/12a32eccf9579388?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Sep 16 2008 10:16 am
From: cicitrade01@yahoo.cn

Jeans
diesel jeans
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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Surviving a bear attack
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/6fc0d7e660741dbe?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Sep 16 2008 10:31 am
From: y_p_w

On Sep 14, 1:11 pm, "Ryan Robbins" <redbird...@verizon.net> wrote:
> "James" <jl...@idirect.com> wrote in message
>
> news:7d1443cf-5c90-441e-a666-cdfaf6508b89@p25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> On Sep 12, 8:35 am, ultim...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> >The advice that these professionals give is this: fight. Your only
> >chance is to convince the bear you are not worth the effort.
>
> That won't work with a grizzly. In fact, it will likely get you killed.

Grizzlies don't back down to anything. I've heard that grizzlies have
been know to fight with polar bears, with the typical result being the
polar bear wins out.

> >They will huff and
> >snort and paw.
>
> Those behaviors are nervous responses, not acts of aggression or precursors
> to an attack. In most cases, a black bear that attacks gives no warning.

Some are known to bluff charge. Seems far more common for a bluff
charge than an actual attack.

> >The more dangerous bears are those who scavange campgrounds for food
> >and become used to human presense. They lose their fear of humans, and
> >if they are truly hungry can't be scared from a food source like a
> >cooler.
>
> Although this belief is widespread, the evidence is far from conclusive.

That black bear in Utah last year wasn't known as a serial campground
raider. It had done so maybe the day before, but that was definitely
a predatory attack on the kid.

In any case, wailing away at a black bear should typically work.
Perhaps there are no guarantees, but everything I hear about black
bears are that they tend to avoid physical confrontation. Some seem
to have gotten numb to attempts to scare them off with noises (pots/
pans, yelling, or pyrotechnics). In Yosemite the authorities will
escalate their deterrence methods to rubber pellet or bean bag
launchers. Pain is something a black bear should understand.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: AUDIO: Anti-zionist Financial Guru Daryl Bradford Smith on the Immense
Crash To Come
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/fd0d1af2e38e3281?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Sep 16 2008 10:37 am
From: St Georges Day April 23rd

AUDIO:
http://theinfounderground.com/archives/The%20Info%20Underground%20Radio%209-8-08%20Guest%20DBS%20-%20Financial%20Mess.mp3

Daryl Bradford Smith's French Connection
www.iamthewitness.com

http://theinfounderground.com/archives/

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Sep 16 2008 11:08 am
From: chief_thracian@yahoo.com (Chief Thracian)

On Sun, 14 Sep 2008 08:47:38 -0700 (PDT), James Nasium
<jimnasium37@gmail.com> wrote:

> you read it and I remain....

a bigoted, illiterate asshole who didn't get beyond the first grade,
both literally and emotionally.

--
Steal This Blog!
http://www.gay-bible.org/steal

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Tuesday, September 16, 2008

25 new messages in 11 topics - digest

26 new messages in 20 topics - digest