Frugal Living: Nov 23, 2007

Friday, November 23, 2007

25 new messages in 18 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Black Friday scams
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/d88b4ca08eaef9f9?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 4:51 pm
From: The Real Bev

clams casino wrote:

> The Trucker wrote:
>>On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 07:52:03 -0800, Joe wrote:
>>
>>>http://home.comcast.net/~plutarch/frugal-philly.html#bf
>>
>>The biggest scam of all is the "manufacturer's rebate" that takes several
>>months and may not ever come. I have been waiting 6 months now for a
>>rebate that I have decided will never show up. Its sorta like medical
>>insurance: If you make it difficult enough to get reimbursed then the
>>plaintiff will eventually give up on it.

This is an old argument. I'll do rebates because you can't get the same or
equivalent stuff at a better price without the rebates. I pay attention to
what I'm doing and have been burned for less than $10 over a 10-year+ period.

> Got a rebate today from Symantec (filed 4 months ago). The name on the
> check has significant spelling errors and the line for endorsement
> strictly forbids a third party endorsement.
>
> I can see where they will now reject the rebate because my correct name
> (for proper deposit) will not begin to match the name on the rebate check.

Lots of rebate checks prohibit 3rd-party endorsements, which prohibition I
have repeatedly ignored with no penalty whatsoever.

I bought my mom a nice HP computer + printer + monitor from Office Depot for
~$350 after rebate a couple of years ago. There were LOTS of forms and it
was a monumental nuisance, but it all worked out.

How many people are willing to pay you >$100/hour for filling in forms and
making xerox copies?

--
Cheers,
Bev
---------------------------------------------------
Don't you just KNOW that there is more than one
Sierra Club member who is absolutely sure that the
dinosaurs died out because of something humans did?

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 5:58 pm
From: George Grapman

The Trucker wrote:
> On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 07:52:03 -0800, Joe wrote:
>
>> http://home.comcast.net/~plutarch/frugal-philly.html#bf
>
> The biggest scam of all is the "manufacturer's rebate" that takes several
> months and may not ever come. I have been waiting 6 months now for a
> rebate that I have decided will never show up. Its sorta like medical
> insurance: If you make it difficult enough to get reimbursed then the
> plaintiff will eventually give up on it.
>
Whenever I have a rebate problem I do the following:

Ask the person I am speaking with if I can record the call. I never
actually record it but they respond better if think I am.
Politely ask for their name or employee ID number. I tell them I need
this because when when I file a complaint with the FTC or your state
consumer protection agency I know the company will contact me ans I want
to be able to tell them that I took this step because (name of person)
refused to deal with the issue in a reasonable and timely manner. This
almost always gets me transferred to someone in middle management who is
often able to accommodate me. Tell them that that two weeks is more than
enough time to take care of the matter and you are not interested in
excuses.
When AT&T delayed my modem rebate a manager said they needed 45-60
days to verify my address. I told him that would look very foolish when
a consumer affairs reporter called him up to verify the excuse. "Please
hold" was followed by a promise to call back by the end of the next day
and at that t5time I was told the check had been processed. I got it two
days later.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Happy Thanksgiving MCFL
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/6eb202bfcb25db33?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 4:55 pm
From: The Real Bev

Don K wrote:

> "The Real Bev" <bashley101+usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I'm still getting cherry tomatoes from my vines, but not many. Some
>> nasty animal got most of them earlier in the year, but it seems to have
>> either moved away or been run over a month or two ago. It seems
>> sensible to grow stuff that's expensive and/or awful at the grocery
>> store, but squash? Yuk.
>
> Squash soup was one of my favorites as a kid. It probably wasn't so much
> the squash, but the chewy, over-cooked drop noodles that made squash soup
> so good.

Are those the same as the thick Chinese "cut noodles" which are made by
slicing off the end of a cylinder of dough and dropping it into boiling
soup/water?

The only way to make squash edible is to make pumpkin pie out of it.

--
Cheers,
Bev
66666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666
Vampireware; n, a project capable of sucking the lifeblood
out of anyone unfortunate enough to be assigned to it,
which never actually sees the light of day, but nonetheless
refuses to die. -- Trygve Lode

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 6:11 pm
From: "Don K"

"The Real Bev" <bashley101+usenet@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:HEK1j.242$Mc.61@newsfe07.lga...
> Don K wrote:
>
>> "The Real Bev" <bashley101+usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm still getting cherry tomatoes from my vines, but not many. Some
>>> nasty animal got most of them earlier in the year, but it seems to have
>>> either moved away or been run over a month or two ago. It seems
>>> sensible to grow stuff that's expensive and/or awful at the grocery
>>> store, but squash? Yuk.
>>
>> Squash soup was one of my favorites as a kid. It probably wasn't so much the squash,
>> but the chewy, over-cooked drop noodles that made squash soup
>> so good.
>
> Are those the same as the thick Chinese "cut noodles" which are made by
> slicing off the end of a cylinder of dough and dropping it into boiling
> soup/water?

Probably. I've never made it myself, but I was told the noodles were made
by dropping dough from a spoon into boiling water. The longer you boil
them, the chewier the noodles become.

The soup itself contains milk, butter, pepper, onions, cut squash, and
best of all, lots and lots of those noodles. One of these days I'm going to
have to dig out the recipe and make some.

Don

==============================================================================
TOPIC: wholesale discount replica A&F boss burberry ed hardy ggg g-unit
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/992bd2cc1149032c?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 5:07 pm
From: werner_cai@hotmail.com

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==============================================================================
TOPIC: wholesale discount replica designer sweater lacoste d&g armani a&f
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/5d2f771195b11eeb?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 5:21 pm
From: werner_cai@hotmail.com

longtimetrade co.,ltd, wholesale retail and sell cheap discount
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or autumn wear, such as lacoste, polo,armani sweater , we have brands
of prada gucci A&F Adidas Akademik
Armani Bape Adicolor white Boss Burberry
D&G Edhardy Evisu Gina green global G-star G-
unit Lacoste LRG Polo Puma , etc.
All brands come with high quality, we guarantee you 100%
satisfaction.

For more informations, plz visit our website: http://clothes.longtimetrade.com

http://clothes.longtimetrade.com the honest supplier that you can
trust, we always seek and look forward to establish long time business
cooperations with you.

If you have any questions about our service or products, plz dont
hesitate to contact us. http://clothes.longtimetrade.com
longtimetrade 01@hotmail.com , longtimetrade 01@yahoo.com.cn

with best regards
the staff of http://clothes.longtimetrade.com and longtimetrade
co.,ltd

==============================================================================
TOPIC: wholesale discount replica designer sweater versace polo boss prada
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/598907ace65dfe9c?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 5:24 pm
From: werner_cai@hotmail.com

All brands come with high quality, we guarantee you 100%
satisfaction.
For more informations, plz visit our website: http://clothes.longtimetrade.com

http://clothes.longtimetrade.com the honest supplier that you can
trust, we always seek and look forward to establish long time business
cooperations with you.

If you have any questions about our service or products, plz dont
hesitate to contact us. http://clothes.longtimetrade.com
longtimetrade 01@hotmail.com , longtimetrade 01@yahoo.com.cn

with best regards
the staff of http://clothes.longtimetrade.com and longtimetrade
co.,ltd

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Black Friday Shoppers = Fuckin Morons
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/e65b4a82e62cae7f?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 5:50 pm
From: Robert

On Nov 23, 4:04 pm, "Joe" <really-faked-but-wo...@yunx.com> wrote:
> <bb90...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:7395f21e-541b-4778-baad-9b63bb654ad2@i29g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>
> > What is wrong with these people? Half of them aren't even out there to
> > shop. They only go out just because it's Black Friday and they figure
> > they'll join the crowd of other mindless sheep who let the media tell
> > them what to do. Fucking Idiots!
>
> PV?!? Is that you?
> --
>
> Joe in Northern, NJ - V#8013-R
>
> Currently Riding The "Mother Ship"http://yunx.com/valk.htm
>
> Ride a motorcycle in or near NJ?http://tinyurl.com/5apkg
>
> Hillary Exposed:http://tinyurl.com/2v4avg

What's the difference beween an idiot and a fucking idiot?

Robert

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 5:55 pm
From: "Joe"

> What's the difference beween an idiot and a fucking idiot?

Procreation.
--

Joe in Northern, NJ - V#8013-R

Currently Riding The "Mother Ship"
http://yunx.com/valk.htm

Ride a motorcycle in or near NJ?
http://tinyurl.com/5apkg

Hillary Exposed:
http://tinyurl.com/2v4avg

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 8:28 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

Robert <writer7777@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Nov 23, 4:04 pm, "Joe" <really-faked-but-wo...@yunx.com> wrote:
>> <bb90...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:7395f21e-541b-4778-baad-9b63bb654ad2@i29g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>> What is wrong with these people? Half of them aren't even out there
>>> to shop. They only go out just because it's Black Friday and they
>>> figure they'll join the crowd of other mindless sheep who let the
>>> media tell them what to do. Fucking Idiots!
>>
>> PV?!? Is that you?
>> --
>>
>> Joe in Northern, NJ - V#8013-R
>>
>> Currently Riding The "Mother Ship"http://yunx.com/valk.htm
>>
>> Ride a motorcycle in or near NJ?http://tinyurl.com/5apkg
>>
>> Hillary Exposed:http://tinyurl.com/2v4avg
>
> What's the difference beween an idiot and a fucking idiot?

The fucking idiot sometimes produces more idiots.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: 24-Hour Fitness?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/c3ef45567d04c75d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 5:54 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

The Real Bev <bashley101+usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Local (less than a 1/4-mile away) is offering a Thanksgiving-weekend
> membership special -- $600/person/3 years and then $29/year/person
> thereafter. Spouse gets the same deal but at $500/3 years. The
> place has been there for at least 5 years, looks decent, and we are
> able to go at off-hours. I figure we can get the same rate after
> this weekend just by being willing to walk, but I'm wondering if we
> can do any better price-wise. A 24-hour facility several miles away
> also has a pool and spa if we feel like riding our bicycles there.
>
> We're only interested in the machines, not the classes --we deal with
> aerobics on our own. I looked for reviews in misc.fitness.weights and
> elsewhere and the biggest bitches seemed to be about the slobs who
> sweat all over the machines and didn't wipe them off -- a requirement
> of the establishment which is apparently not stringently enforced at
> some facilities.
> Anybody have opinions?

I dont bother with machines at all, just walk around and eat sensibly instead.

Much cheaper, but I guess you can claim that its a tad more
risky if you say end up with say a heart attack on the street
instead of in a room like that or just trip over or sumfin.

There's always quite a few people around when I do it, first thing in the
morning, just after sunup, but before you get any sun shining on you so you
dont have to fart around with sunscreen etc, while its still cool in summer.

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 8:17 pm
From: SMS *

The Real Bev wrote:
> Local (less than a 1/4-mile away) is offering a Thanksgiving-weekend
> membership special -- $600/person/3 years and then $29/year/person
> thereafter. Spouse gets the same deal but at $500/3 years. The place
> has been there for at least 5 years, looks decent, and we are able to go
> at off-hours. I figure we can get the same rate after this weekend just
> by being willing to walk, but I'm wondering if we can do any better
> price-wise. A 24-hour facility several miles away also has a pool and
> spa if we feel like riding our bicycles there.

The price per month works out to be very good, but there's that huge
initial outlay. The one near me offered $5/week when the first opened,
with no initial payment, good only at that one location.

The down side is that they're always trying to sell you some extra
services, from people that are less than expert in the subject.

If the plan they're offering lets you use any location then it's a good
deal.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 8:27 pm
From: "Don K"

"The Real Bev" <bashley101+usenet@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:PqK1j.239$Mc.137@newsfe07.lga...
> Local (less than a 1/4-mile away) is offering a Thanksgiving-weekend membership
> special -- $600/person/3 years and then $29/year/person thereafter.

So in 3 years, they will be pulling in 56 cents a week from you.
That will certainly put you in the drivers seat. With that kind of customer
clout, you can be sure they're going to want to keep you happy.

Don

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Free Bipolar Disorder Materials and Pill Box
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/5d819d957074d072?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 5:59 pm
From: "TheBestFreebies.com"

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--
The Best Freebies

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==============================================================================
TOPIC: ###FUCKING SEX ROMAN SEX ###
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/fc62b474e8f25061?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 6:01 pm
From: "gopaaaa@gmail.com"

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==============================================================================
TOPIC: How to use FLIR infrared camera to reduce Winter home heating bills.
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/7a0ee7a8600425be?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 7:35 pm
From: "Ron Purvis"

"Joe" <useful_infos@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1194564894.822241.271690@v29g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
> Video via http://Muvy.org
>

Why don't you stop spamming us with your site, and just start providing the
link to the actual information?

==============================================================================
TOPIC: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Make $5000 Online Without Investment
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/cab9e84e4625058c?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 7:58 pm
From: R Martin

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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Looking For Free Air Pump At Gas Station (North Dallas/Richardson/Plano
- Texas)
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/5211fb5e886f9a96?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 8:09 pm
From: Tiziano

I live within ZIP code 75252. Does anyone know if there are gas
stations in the North Dallas/Richardson/Plano (Texas) area that let
customers use their air pumps for free?
My neighborhood gas stations charge $0.75 for using their air pumps.
That's way too much!! So that I can maximize saving gas, I like to
check the tire pressure of my car at least once or twice per month...
Thanks.
--
tb

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 8:45 pm
From: Anthony Matonak

Tiziano wrote:
> My neighborhood gas stations charge $0.75 for using their air pumps.
> That's way too much!! So that I can maximize saving gas, I like to
> check the tire pressure of my car at least once or twice per month...

I believe this topic comes up at least a couple of times a year.
You could try searching the archives to see what everyone has
said about this previously. :)

The best way to deal with this, from my point of view, is to buy
your own air pump. This lets you fill your tires as much as you
would like.

I have seen 12V powered versions for less than $15, foot pumps for
even less so it's not a huge expense.

Anthony

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Supply basketball shoe, football shoes, clothes, hat and so onvSupply
basketball shoe, football shoes, clothes, hat and so onSupply basketball shoe,
football shoes, clothes, hat and so on
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/60da6c8b31652767?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 8:47 pm
From: tom

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TOPIC: Herbal remedies worldwide,free shipping
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/439055d9b9fdb0e9?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 9:01 pm
From: swtlady

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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Promote water balance and improve cardiovascular system
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/ca07556f760064d4?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 9:08 pm
From: swtlady

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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Comfort child's night terror and bad dreams
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/846a570fd0b31ad6?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 9:11 pm
From: swtlady

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TOPIC: Natural treatment for Acne control and prevention
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/52c4938eb19303f0?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 9:14 pm
From: swtlady

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TOPIC: Natural solution for acute and chronic digestive problems
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/a01b4c407fa99867?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 9:20 pm
From: swtlady

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==============================================================================

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24 new messages in 10 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

== 1 of 8 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 11:51 am
From: "What Me Worry?" <__@____.___>

"The Trucker" <mikcob@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:pan.2007.11.23.19.22.41.473135@verizon.net...
> On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 07:52:03 -0800, Joe wrote:
>
>> http://home.comcast.net/~plutarch/frugal-philly.html#bf
>
> The biggest scam of all is the "manufacturer's rebate" that takes several
> months and may not ever come. I have been waiting 6 months now for a
> rebate that I have decided will never show up. Its sorta like medical
> insurance: If you make it difficult enough to get reimbursed then the
> plaintiff will eventually give up on it.

Rebates should be outlawed. They are a scam.

Best Buy used to be one of the worst offenders, but now they (wisely) have
stopped using the rebate ploy:

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/retail/bestbuy_rebates.html

== 2 of 8 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 12:32 pm
From: SMS *

One of the biggest reasons for rebates is to prevent returns. Once the
UPC code is removed, most stores will not accept returns.

== 3 of 8 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 2:20 pm
From: sarge137

On Nov 23, 12:22 pm, The Trucker <mik...@verizon.net> wrote:
> On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 07:52:03 -0800, Joe wrote:
> >http://home.comcast.net/~plutarch/frugal-philly.html#bf
>
> The biggest scam of all is the "manufacturer's rebate" that takes several
> months and may not ever come. I have been waiting 6 months now for a
> rebate that I have decided will never show up. Its sorta like medical
> insurance: If you make it difficult enough to get reimbursed then the
> plaintiff will eventually give up on it.
>
> --
> "I know no safe depository of the ultimate powers
> of society but the people themselves; and
> if we think them not enlightened enough to
> exercise their control with a wholesome
> discretion, the remedy is not to take it from
> them, but to inform their discretion by
> education." - Thomas Jeffersonhttp://GreaterVoice.org/extend

Absolutely! I went to my local CompUSA last night for their 9:00pm to
midnight Thanksgiving day sale. Not a thing on their shelves, except
for a few very large already badly over priced flat screen TVs could
be had for "out the door" prices much below the normal list price. I
was looking at a HP Pavilion desktop with a shelf price of $499.99.
Reading the very fine print on the tag told me that I was really going
be charged $799.99, plus sales tax, then receive a $50.00 "instant"
rebate at the register, and a total of $250.00 in separate
manufacturer's and CompUSA mail in rebates. So that computer with the
$499.99 shelf tag was actually going to cost me slightly less than
$800.00 to take home. Having had previous experience with both
CompUSA and HP rebates, I know it'll take takes week, and at least one
complaint to get the checks.

While I was looking a sales clerk walked up. The exchange went
something like this:

Clerk: Pretty good deal isn't it?
Me: Yeah, it would be if I could take it home for that price. But,
I'll probably see my tax refund before those rebate checks.
Clerk: Well, I can check with my manager. Maybe we can work
something out.
Me: That would be great, thanks. By the way, tell your manager I
don't buy extended warranties for any reason.

I waited 15 minutes and went home. Never saw him again.

Regards,
Sarge

== 4 of 8 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 3:04 pm
From: clams casino

The Trucker wrote:

>On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 07:52:03 -0800, Joe wrote:
>
>
>
>>http://home.comcast.net/~plutarch/frugal-philly.html#bf
>>
>>
>
>The biggest scam of all is the "manufacturer's rebate" that takes several
>months and may not ever come. I have been waiting 6 months now for a
>rebate that I have decided will never show up. Its sorta like medical
>insurance: If you make it difficult enough to get reimbursed then the
>plaintiff will eventually give up on it.
>
>
>
Got a rebate today from Symantec (filed 4 months ago). The name on the
check has significant spelling errors and the line for endorsement
strictly forbids a third party endorsement.

I can see where they will now reject the rebate because my correct name
(for proper deposit) will not begin to match the name on the rebate check.

== 5 of 8 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 3:38 pm
From: peter@nospamplease.dk (Peder B. Pels)

The Trucker <mikcob@verizon.net> wrote:

> On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 07:52:03 -0800, Joe wrote:
>
> > http://home.comcast.net/~plutarch/frugal-philly.html#bf
>
> The biggest scam of all is the "manufacturer's rebate" that takes several
> months and may not ever come. I have been waiting 6 months now for a
> rebate that I have decided will never show up. Its sorta like medical
> insurance: If you make it difficult enough to get reimbursed then the
> plaintiff will eventually give up on it.

I agree, it's bullshit. It's a flashy sticker on the product that
entices you to shell out for aproduct, by making YOU jump through hoops
to get a mostly insignificant cash refund. After waiting forever.

I usually just avoid such products. Revently, Microsoft has been pulling
that shit on their peripheral products here in Denmark. No thanks. I
prefer Logitech anyway...

--
regards , Peter B. P. http://titancity.com/blog , http://macplanet.dk
Washington D.C.: District of Criminals
"I dont drink anymore... of course, i don't drink any less, either!

== 6 of 8 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 3:38 pm
From: peter@nospamplease.dk (Peder B. Pels)

What Me Worry? <__@____.___> wrote:

> "The Trucker" <mikcob@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:pan.2007.11.23.19.22.41.473135@verizon.net...
> > On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 07:52:03 -0800, Joe wrote:
> >
> >> http://home.comcast.net/~plutarch/frugal-philly.html#bf
> >
> > The biggest scam of all is the "manufacturer's rebate" that takes several
> > months and may not ever come. I have been waiting 6 months now for a
> > rebate that I have decided will never show up. Its sorta like medical
> > insurance: If you make it difficult enough to get reimbursed then the
> > plaintiff will eventually give up on it.
>
> Rebates should be outlawed. They are a scam.
>
> Best Buy used to be one of the worst offenders, but now they (wisely) have
> stopped using the rebate ploy:
>
> http://www.consumeraffairs.com/retail/bestbuy_rebates.html

Did they do so on their own accord? If that is the case, then the market
does seem to work toward pushing companies toward more ethical
practices.

--
regards , Peter B. P. http://titancity.com/blog , http://macplanet.dk
Washington D.C.: District of Criminals
"I dont drink anymore... of course, i don't drink any less, either!

== 7 of 8 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 3:44 pm
From: Meghan Noecker

On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 14:20:32 -0800 (PST), sarge137
<rbooth9858@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
>While I was looking a sales clerk walked up. The exchange went
>something like this:
>
>Clerk: Pretty good deal isn't it?
>Me: Yeah, it would be if I could take it home for that price. But,
>I'll probably see my tax refund before those rebate checks.
>Clerk: Well, I can check with my manager. Maybe we can work
>something out.
>Me: That would be great, thanks. By the way, tell your manager I
>don't buy extended warranties for any reason.
>
>I waited 15 minutes and went home. Never saw him again.
>

Reminds me of when I bought a desktop computer at CompUSA many years
ago. They told me I could get an extended warranty for free. They said
something about having to lower the ticket prices of my items so that
the warranty would shop up on the receipt. Both my sister and I were
buying a computer, monitor, printer, etc. After about 5 minutes, they
came back with our papers to take to the register. A quick work of
math, and I could see they added $300 to the bill.

I mentioned it, and he said he would check them. Another 15 minutes,
and he came back. I added it up, and it was still $300 higher than my
purchase. He took it back again. Another 10 minutes, and he came out
and admitted that it would cost $300, but it was a good deal. I told
him to take it off. No way I was I buying an extended warranty.

My sister would have paid it, never noticing the problem. It makes me
wonder how many people fall for that scam, and how they can get
employees to do this without feeling guilty.

== 8 of 8 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 3:53 pm
From: Goomba38

clams casino wrote:

I don't usually bother signing my name to the back of checks. I just
write on the back "For Deposit Only" and my bank account number. Never
once had a problem doing it that way and saves time.

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 12:14 pm
From: "Don K"

"The Real Bev" <bashley101+usenet@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:vNt1j.100$Cj7.96@newsfe02.lga...

> I'm still getting cherry tomatoes from my vines, but not many. Some nasty animal got
> most of them earlier in the year, but it seems to have either moved away or been run
> over a month or two ago. It seems sensible to grow stuff that's expensive and/or awful
> at the grocery store, but squash? Yuk.

Squash soup was one of my favorites as a kid. It probably wasn't so much
the squash, but the chewy, over-cooked drop noodles that made squash soup
so good.

Don

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 2:59 pm
From: imascot

hchickpea@hotmail.com wrote in
news:gq1ck31lo44ripblq0es2cf2s4m3orock0@4ax.com:

>>>I've learned a lot from you all over the past decade +.
>>>During both lean times and good times, on my part, this group has
>>>been a wealth of knowledge, innovation and inspiration.
>>>
>>>Thank you all.
>>>
>>>..PC
>>I feel the exact same way PC.
>>Happy Thanksgiving everyone. Enjoy all the leftovers...the very
>>frugal part of the meal.
>>Dawn, geting ready to put the fruit salad together.
>
> Likewise to all. I do wish that many more of the core group members
> were still around, and/or that there was a way to rejuvinate some of
> the positive energy here. A few people mentioned mailing lists in the
> past, maybe that is an idea that could be revisited?
>
>

Hear, hear. It's depressing that there are more listings in my killfile than there are actual postings
worth reading.

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 4:16 pm
From: gheston@hiwaay.net (Gary Heston)

In article <slldk3tc2lgskln2vbuhn8jjs7t0u15746@4ax.com>,
<hchickpea@hotmail.com> wrote:
>On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 21:44:40 -0800, The Real Bev
><bashley101+usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>> It seems sensible to grow
>>stuff that's expensive and/or awful at the grocery store, but squash? Yuk.

>Typically $1/lb at the stores, and often dry and tasteless. As for
>the taste of squash in general? <shrug> Some of us like it, some
>don't.

I liked the one which Mrs. Chickpea gifted me with last weekend; I ate
the second half of it last night. Much appreciated.

>>How's the drought treating you?

>Kinda complicated. Have a bumper crop of walnuts, kale and collards
>seem OK, and the recent rain has been a hinderance to some
>construction. Today looks bright and cool, the rest of the weekend is
>supposed to bring more rain.

It was bright, until my framing nailer jammed and we couldn't clear it.
Further work on the deck was much slower. Im looking for a local tool
repair place to see what they can do.

Gary

--
Gary Heston gheston@hiwaay.net

http://www.thebreastcancersite.com/

Yoko Onos' former driver tried to extort $2M from her, threating to
"release embarassing recordings...". What, he has a copy of her album?

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 5:03 pm
From: nospam@nospam.com

On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 22:59:49 GMT, in misc.consumers.frugal-living imascot
<imnot@mycomputer.now> wrote:

>hchickpea@hotmail.com wrote in
>news:gq1ck31lo44ripblq0es2cf2s4m3orock0@4ax.com:
>
>>>>I've learned a lot from you all over the past decade +.
>>>>During both lean times and good times, on my part, this group has
>>>>been a wealth of knowledge, innovation and inspiration.
>>>>
>>>>Thank you all.
>>>>
>>>>..PC
>>>I feel the exact same way PC.
>>>Happy Thanksgiving everyone. Enjoy all the leftovers...the very
>>>frugal part of the meal.
>>>Dawn, geting ready to put the fruit salad together.
>>
>> Likewise to all. I do wish that many more of the core group members
>> were still around, and/or that there was a way to rejuvinate some of
>> the positive energy here. A few people mentioned mailing lists in the
>> past, maybe that is an idea that could be revisited?
>>
>>
>
>Hear, hear. It's depressing that there are more listings in my killfile than there are actual postings
>worth reading.
>
>J.

Do share your kill filters.. I've been gone for a while and all my filters are
gone.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Where did the 400 billion USD in subprime mortgage losses go
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/4b5ad94e9eb8e056?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 12:30 pm
From: SMS *

yassahmassa wrote:
> In article <47468dfe$0$79871$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net>,
> SMS éz‰ ï * âƒ <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
>
>> The loan companies made out very well
>
> No, they did not. Their executives made out just fine, but sub-prime
> lending companies and their shareholders are all facing bankruptcy. What
> do you think all the media fuss is about?

"Made" is in the past tense, not the present tense. The reason they're
in bankruptcy now is that it collapsed so fast that they could not sell
the loans that were already approved and funded. Most of these lending
companies sell 100% of their loans, they are in business only for the
fees and points.

> Whatever. Due to the "friendship", however crooked and corrupt, between
> George Bush and one of the primary architects of the current suffering
> and misery, don't expect Arnall's fortune to be diminished by a single
> dime, no matter how many families are ruined by his actions. Taxpayers
> are currently even paying his salary. What a great fucking country, eh?

Yep. First we bailed out the S&L crooks that got rich from Reagan's
deregulation of the banking industry, now we are suffering again from
the lack of regulation in the mortgage industry. The bandaids are
already making it worse. Lowering short-term interest rates further
devalues the dollar, plus it lowers interest rates paid on savings, plus
it increases oil prices, plus it lowers stock values.

The place to put your money when a Republican is president is in Euro's.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 2:26 pm
From: "231" <231@alok.com>

PaPaPeng <PaPaPeng@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 00:25:17 -0800, SMS ???. ?
> <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
>
>> What's so strange is why the banks weren't taking the initiative to
>> renegotiate these loans, i.e. lowering payments by stretching out the
>> term, or lowering interest rates--anything to keep the buyer from
>> defaulting.
>
>
> That's because the banks and the investment houses don't actually own
> the original mortages. The banks and IHs may be the third, fourth or
> higher level owners of investment certificates. These investment
> certificates are based on the perceived value of the certificates
> issued by another (4) financial institution who may have valued their
> certificates they issued based on the investments they bought from
> someone else (3 &2). The original loan company(1) no longer owns the
> mortages it sold to bank (2) that bundled them into an investment
> block of subprime mortages.
>
>
> To get down to the roots of the problem a housing loan company issues
> loans. Its sales personnel hype subprime loans because their earnings
> and the loan company's is based on the size of the loan not the
> borrowers' ability to service the loans. These subprime loans are
> given on a higher interest rate to justify the risk. Some loan
> company or bank then bundles the loans together and sells them to a
> another bank or IH as a single unit of investment. The attraction is
> that its unlikely all of the loans will default at any one time. This
> will average out the good ones and still pay a good return. A key
> point to remember is that the original loan company no longer owns the
> mortages. The home owner has never met the new entity that he makes
> his monthly payments to.
>
> In good times this works. The primary owner of these bundled
> investments borrows money from another bank or IH using these subprime
> bundles as security. The figures look good and the lending bank is
> only too happy to lend to a large borrower who looks very capable of
> paying back the interest and the principal. The bank has a " loans
> issued" asset that is bringing in earnings and its own book value
> increases. This allowing it to borrow from other banks or to issue
> more loans. That's what banks do. And so on as loans multiply
> "assets" along the banking-financial system we have an economic boom.
>
> Now when the subprime cirsis broke the company holding the real
> mortages cannot pay the interest on the loans it borrowed from the
> banks to buy these bundled mortages. It goes belly up. At last
> count more than a hundred housing loan companies went belly up.
> "Since late 2006
> 189
> major U.S. lending operations have "imploded"
> http://ml-implode.com/
>
> The lending bank's only recourse is to seize the bundled mortages to
> recover its loans. This bank is not in the housing loan business. It
> will have trouble sorting out which mortage is in default, which one
> can be rescheduled and which can be foreclosed. It doesn't know what
> these mortages are actually worth now. The next bank that or the IH
> that accepted the bundled subprime certificates and invested in them
> doesn't even have the recourse to sieze the mortages. All they have
> are pieces of pretty paper. They can't force the issuing institution
> to make good and therefore drive them into insolvency and the investor
> loses all.
>
> If you can't follow the explanation so far neither can the banks and
> FHs and they have no idea of what they will eventually lose for they
> have no idea of what they do or do not own that is solvent. Morgan
> Stanley took a $3.7 billion write off. CITIGroup is in for $15
> billions. Everyone is waiting for more banks and FHs to announce
> their losses and that's only the first round. Revised figures are
> expected to be worse. In the UK the Treasury was foolish enough to
> try to rescue Northern Rock

You've mangled that utterly. The problem with Northern Rock isnt that
they bought any of those securitized sub prime loans, the problem is
that they were borrowing on the short term money market and lending
on medium and long term mortgages and when the short term money
market dried up as a result of the sub prime fiasco, so that no one was
interested in lending anything in the short term market because they
had no idea who was about to incur billions of losses in due to those
securitized mortgages turning to dog shit, Northern Rock's source of
funds drived up.

> and may have to write off UK pounds 23
> billions (USD 47 billions) of tax payers' money.

No they wont. Northern Rock wont go down if the UK taxpayers provide the
cover for the lack of short term money and the nervous depositors who pulled
their deposits out when the problem with the sub prime fiasco became obvious.

> http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2007/nov/23/northernrock.bankofenglandgovernor
> (follow the back articles at the bottom of the current one) .

Pity you cant actually manage to comprehend what those are saying.

> Governments and banking agencies have to unsnarl the banking system first.

Thats easy enough to do, and they have done that by providing that short term
money that no one else is prepared to provide because it isnt clear who is holding
much of the paper that has turned to dog shit as a result of the sub prime fiasco.

> Unsnarling individual mortage holders will have to wait.

They wont ever be unsnarled. Those who were stupid enough to get
sucked into loans that they couldnt possibly repay by lying about their
capacity to pay will default. In spades those who could barely manage
to cover their ARM payments at the sucker rates, when those sucker
rates end and they get to double or triple the interest rate they are paying.

> For more reading on the subprime and coming economic
> crisis go to Asia Times online at http://www.atimes.com/

The same mindless hysterical hyperventilation happened during the
most recent melt down in asia and it didnt in fact affect anyone but asia.

> Among the many excellent articles Mogumbo Guru writes
> hunorous articles on a serious subject and provides a good
> insight into financial and economics you won't get elsewhere.

Pity it hasnt helped you any.

> sample: THE MOGAMBO GURU
> More than 'sheets' hitting the fan
> We're talking about banks' balance sheets, and the numbers
> seem so horrific that we are suddenly thinking about banks
> going belly up. (Nov 20, '07) Full article in
> http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Global_Economy/IK21Dj01.html

Taint gunna happen, you watch.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: The Funeral Industry's vultures
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/94da65dee9d3d272?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 1:27 pm
From: donquijote1954

Just like the vultures benefit from the Law of the Jungle, the Funeral
Industry profits from some laws no less Darwinistic, and it engages in
eating the most vulnerable, ie. the old and infirm...

Case in point is how they sold to my mom a mausoleum package that
included her burial as well as my own burial --without me knowing! So
now that my mom passed away, I will not be able to sell it because
it's two continuous units and nobody would buy it.

How could there be a law that allows such injustice I don't know, but
I suspect it's all about money. Some well paid foxes --the lawyers--
wrote the law. And the vultures --the salespeople working on
commission-- can only be happy with it. How can an old lady defend
herself against such crafty, hungry predators?

I tell them to transfer my mom to a single unit, and they want to
charge me something like $2,000. I may as well jump with the sharks or
alligators. At least they eat out of need, not out of greed.

The vultures...
http://www.liv.ac.uk/~sdb/Safari-2001/Images/457%20Vultures%20kill.jpg

Sorry, I put the wrong ones... ;)
http://www.dignitymemorial.com/DignityMemorial/Home.aspx?id=Home

WELCOME TO THE JUNGLE
http://webspawner.com/users/donquijote

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 1:28 pm
From: donquijote1954

Just like the vultures benefit from the Law of the Jungle, the Funeral
Industry profits from some laws no less Darwinistic, and it engages in
eating the most vulnerable, ie. the old and infirm...

I tell them to transfer my mom to a single unit, and they want to
charge me something like $2,000. I may as well jump with the sharks or
alligators. At least they eat out of need, not out of greed.

The vultures...
http://www.liv.ac.uk/~sdb/Safari-2001/Images/457%20Vultures%20kill.jpg

Sorry, I put the wrong ones... ;)
http://www.dignitymemorial.com/DignityMemorial/Home.aspx?id=Home

WELCOME TO THE JUNGLE
http://webspawner.com/users/donquijote

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 2:23 pm
From: gina <@troy.ln>

donquijote1954 wrote:
> Just like the vultures benefit from the Law of the Jungle, the Funeral
> Industry profits from some laws no less Darwinistic, and it engages in
> eating the most vulnerable, ie. the old and infirm...
>
>snip
I had a distant relative that was taken advantage of over the death of
of his wife.
They took the home and later resold it for around a 1,000 times the cost
for the funeral. The relative didn't get a dime of it of course. This
was back, in the early 70's.
It isn't as cut and dried as it sounds. The funeral home did a number of
deceptions and frauds. I didn't find out about it until a year after the
event.
They were very old and very susceptible to con artists and swindlers.
A couple of brothers sold 100 acres to a timber company because the
State raised the taxes beyond what their SS would cover. They asked the
timber company representative if 600.00 was too much. The guy whipped
out his personal checkbook and gave them what they asked. This guy has a
real conscience. His Employer is just as much a saint. This was in the
eighties.
Many times a Developer will come into an area he wants and will
influence the Development Commission/Council Members etc to change the
zoning and thus the taxes, as a way ,to force the sale of the property,
at his price. It's the same corruption as with imminent domain by
Developers through local/state/federal governments. If you have a valued
Natural Resource the Developers will be making contributions to your
Elected Representatives reelection campaigns and making promises.
The world is full of swindlers and liars and politicians.
You cannot trust many people and any business if they smell a easy victim.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: frugal identity theft protection?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/7e3186bd31e81d7b?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 2:47 pm
From: "Mike M."

<frugle.ng.benalt@xoxy.net> wrote in message
news:d316521a-b6a3-44a7-a059-551cd4c90e24@s36g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> Hello,
>
> I called up Equifax to put a fraud alert on my ssn and they
> automatically forward the request to the other credit agencies. It is
> on for 90 days and I had the option of 7 years. What happens is that
> anyone applying for credit using your ssn is informed of the fraud
> alert and you can specify your phone number that they can call to
> confirm it is legitimate. I was wondering what the down side is to
> having a fraud alert on yourself as it seems generally to be a frugal
> way of protecting yourself from scammers etc. It may not be perfect
> (they said that it won't help you if someone changes an address on an
> existing credit card or something for example) but it sounds helpful,
> though I imagine that I must be missing something...?
>
> Regards.

I'm not sure about Equifax's product, but I have been bombarded with email
offers from Experian (made the mistake of signing up for their free 30-day
trial offer - what an ordeal to cancel) regarding their security "freeze"
product.

It's not really a fraud alert (which is bad, implying you currently are/have
been a victim of fraud), rather a service that prevents creditors from
accessing your credit file without first obtaining permission (usually via a
PIN ) directly from you. Apparently once you provide the creditor(s) with
the PIN (say you are applying for a mortgage/auto loan/cc) they will then be
able to access your credit report. That aside, no one else (other than
yourself) can access your credit file.

But it' not a free service - requires one-time fee and an additional fee
each time you "unfreeze" your file (I think for a 7-30 day period.) And you
have to do it with each agency individually - does not automatically apply
to the other two reporting agencies. I don't have any such services, but I
did sign up for the (free) opt-out service with all the credit reporting
agencies. May or may not help regarding fraud, but it did cut way back on
junk mail received...

Mike

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Combo bargain at Waffle House
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/74dad7c1a517d7ff?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 3:07 pm
From: clams casino

Ate at Waffle house last week. Two eggs with toast & hash browns were
$3.10 plus $3.59 for a side of country ham at $3.59 = $6.69.

The eggs & country ham were listed at $6.90.

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 3:17 pm
From: bb90125@yahoo.com

What is wrong with these people? Half of them aren't even out there to
shop. They only go out just because it's Black Friday and they figure
they'll join the crowd of other mindless sheep who let the media tell
them what to do. Fucking Idiots!

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 4:04 pm
From: "Joe"

<bb90125@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:7395f21e-541b-4778-baad-9b63bb654ad2@i29g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> What is wrong with these people? Half of them aren't even out there to
> shop. They only go out just because it's Black Friday and they figure
> they'll join the crowd of other mindless sheep who let the media tell
> them what to do. Fucking Idiots!

PV?!? Is that you?
--

Joe in Northern, NJ - V#8013-R

Currently Riding The "Mother Ship"
http://yunx.com/valk.htm

Ride a motorcycle in or near NJ?
http://tinyurl.com/5apkg

Hillary Exposed:
http://tinyurl.com/2v4avg

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Free Book: Dismantling Cancer
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 4:40 pm
From: The Real Bev

Local (less than a 1/4-mile away) is offering a Thanksgiving-weekend
membership special -- $600/person/3 years and then $29/year/person
thereafter. Spouse gets the same deal but at $500/3 years. The place has
been there for at least 5 years, looks decent, and we are able to go at
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being willing to walk, but I'm wondering if we can do any better price-wise.
A 24-hour facility several miles away also has a pool and spa if we feel
like riding our bicycles there.

We're only interested in the machines, not the classes --we deal with
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elsewhere and the biggest bitches seemed to be about the slobs who sweat all
over the machines and didn't wipe them off -- a requirement of the
establishment which is apparently not stringently enforced at some facilities.

Anybody have opinions?

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25 new messages in 13 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

== 1 of 6 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 12:25 am
From: SMS *

Wilson wrote:
> I keep reading about the 400 billion us dollars in subprime losses to date,
> e.g, see this bloomberg article http://tinyurl.com/2vjgq7
>
> Where there is a 400 billion dollar loss there is a 400 billion dollar
> gain.

> I don't understand WHO gained from this 400 billion dollars?

Most of it went to the sellers, especially developers, that were able to
sell houses for greatly inflated prices because easy credit made the
competition for these houses greater. The savvy seller that cashed out
before prices plunged, and the developer that sold new homes for 1.5-2x
what they currently sell for, got their money and ran.

The loan companies made out very well because sub-prime loans generate
large commissions from points and fees. The loan wholesalers (banks)
ended up with the bad loans. Since there was very little down payment,
even a foreclosure doesn't get the bank back what they loaned.

What's so strange is why the banks weren't taking the initiative to
renegotiate these loans, i.e. lowering payments by stretching out the
term, or lowering interest rates--anything to keep the buyer from
defaulting.

> Who wins here? How?
> I'm cash rich - can I benefit by taking some action?

Unfortunately no. If you had had the foresight to sell some stocks short
then you might have done okay.

One area that's doing well right now is rental properties. If you can
pick up some bargain basement rental units right now, then you could
break even, but it's really too early to do this as prices are still
falling in most areas.

== 2 of 6 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 6:27 am
From: yassahmassa

In article <47468dfe$0$79871$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net>,
SMS éz‰ ï * âƒ <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:

> The loan companies made out very well

No, they did not. Their executives made out just fine, but sub-prime
lending companies and their shareholders are all facing bankruptcy. What
do you think all the media fuss is about?

Consider this: Ameriquest Mortgage, one of the top sub-prime lenders,
has closed down, bankrupt. California billionaire Roland E. Arnall, the
CEO who drove the company into bankruptcy (with such policies as
falsifying income reports on sub-prime borrowers to make them more
appealingly credit-worthy and get them loans larger than they could
afford) has been appointed Ambassador to the Netherlands by George W.
Bush. This is a payback appointment, since Arnall has been one of Bush's
largest campaign contributors since 2002.

When questioned about the appointment, a White House spokesman noted all
the "contributions" made by Arnall to the "community". I wonder which
community that is.

Whatever. Due to the "friendship", however crooked and corrupt, between
George Bush and one of the primary architects of the current suffering
and misery, don't expect Arnall's fortune to be diminished by a single
dime, no matter how many families are ruined by his actions. Taxpayers
are currently even paying his salary. What a great fucking country, eh?

== 3 of 6 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 10:55 am
From: "Rod Speed"

SMS ???. ? <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
> Wilson wrote:

>> I keep reading about the 400 billion us dollars in subprime losses
>> to date, e.g, see this bloomberg article http://tinyurl.com/2vjgq7

>> Where there is a 400 billion dollar loss there is a 400 billion dollar gain.

>> I don't understand WHO gained from this 400 billion dollars?

> Most of it went to the sellers, especially developers, that were able to sell houses for greatly inflated prices
> because easy credit made the competition for these houses greater. The savvy seller that cashed out before prices
> plunged,

There's fuck all of those. The vast bulk would have traded up to something
higher priced and got fanged very comprehensively indeed compared with
what they would have ended up with if they hadnt done that.

> and the developer that sold new homes for 1.5-2x what they currently sell for, got their money and ran.

Even less of those. That market has been booming for a
long time due to the very low interest rates and almost no
developers would have been able to pick the end of that.

> The loan companies made out very well because sub-prime loans generate large commissions from points and fees.

Yes, but that aint where the vast bulk of the $400B went.

> The loan wholesalers (banks) ended up with the bad loans.

Not just banks, the main problem is that those sub prime loans
were securitized and flogged to a hell of a lot more than just banks.

> Since there was very little down payment, even a foreclosure doesn't get the bank back what they loaned.

It does if they securitized the loan and flogged
it off to some other sucker before it defaulted.

> What's so strange is why the banks weren't taking the initiative to
> renegotiate these loans, i.e. lowering payments by stretching out the
> term, or lowering interest rates--anything to keep the buyer from defaulting.

The reason is obvious, they make a lot more money securitizing those
loans and flogging them off to other suckers before they default.

THATS whats different this time around, the absolute vast bulk of the sub prime
loans were securitized and flogged off to suckers like ShittyBank and Bear Stearns.

And what you are suggesting wont work anyway, the sub prime loans
were so sub prime that it isnt even possible to come up with lowered
payments that the suckers could actually afford to pay. It was always
about ARMs that didnt look too bad at the promotional up front rate
but which guaranteed default when the sucker rate came to an end.

>> Who wins here? How?
>> I'm cash rich - can I benefit by taking some action?

> Unfortunately no. If you had had the foresight to sell some stocks short then you might have done okay.

> One area that's doing well right now is rental properties. If you can pick up some bargain basement rental units right
> now, then you could break even, but it's really too early to do this as prices are still falling in most areas.

And its less clear whether the market will implode quite significantly more yet.

== 4 of 6 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 10:59 am
From: "Rod Speed"

yassahmassa <father@heaven.invalid> wrote:
> SMS éz??ï?. âf <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote

>> The loan companies made out very well

> No, they did not. Their executives made out just fine,

Its more than just the executives, the front line apes did
quite well on commissions before it all imploded too.

Corse most of both would have gotten involved personally themselves
too and may well have lost more on that than they gained personally too.

> but sub-prime lending companies and their shareholders are all
> facing bankruptcy. What do you think all the media fuss is about?

> Consider this: Ameriquest Mortgage, one of the top sub-prime lenders,
> has closed down, bankrupt. California billionaire Roland E. Arnall,
> the CEO who drove the company into bankruptcy (with such policies as
> falsifying income reports on sub-prime borrowers to make them more
> appealingly credit-worthy and get them loans larger than they could
> afford) has been appointed Ambassador to the Netherlands by George W.
> Bush. This is a payback appointment, since Arnall has been one of
> Bush's largest campaign contributors since 2002.

> When questioned about the appointment, a White House
> spokesman noted all the "contributions" made by Arnall
> to the "community". I wonder which community that is.

> Whatever. Due to the "friendship", however crooked and corrupt,
> between George Bush and one of the primary architects of the current
> suffering and misery, don't expect Arnall's fortune to be diminished by
> a single dime, no matter how many families are ruined by his actions.

Bet he got some downsides from the implosion.

> Taxpayers are currently even paying his salary.
> What a great fucking country, eh?

You're always welcome to set fire to yourself in 'protest' or sumfin.

== 5 of 6 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 11:05 am
From: phil scott

On Nov 20, 5:22 pm, "FrediFizzx" <fredifi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> "Rod Speed" <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:5qgub4F103pskU1@mid.individual.net...
>
> > FrediFizzx <fredifi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> Good example. The money is still out there. The people that sold at
> >> the top have the money.
>
> > No they dont when the whole market drops significantly due to the
> > large
> > oversupply of houses that are the result of mortgage defaults with
> > those
> > who should never have been given that mortgage in the first place.
>
> What the heck does that have to do with people that sold at the top?
> This totally answers the OP's original question as to where the money
> went. It doesn't just vaporize.
>
> Fred

you are correct fred..the money IS still out there....however, one can
exagerate the mechanisms to show up the bigger picture.

say that 600 trillion is printed up or created in the form of e money
loans to member banks.. that 600 trillion remains out there. but its
no longer worth a damn.. as we have seen in prewar germany and south
america... hyper inflation... the 'money' is out there.

the net actual 'value' of the goods, fishies in the ocean,and junk
cars...doesnt change an iota... only the fiat money numbers change.

Phil Scott

== 6 of 6 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 11:35 am
From: PaPaPeng

On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 00:25:17 -0800, SMS ???* ?
<scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:

>What's so strange is why the banks weren't taking the initiative to
>renegotiate these loans, i.e. lowering payments by stretching out the
>term, or lowering interest rates--anything to keep the buyer from
>defaulting.

That's because the banks and the investment houses don't actually own
the original mortages. The banks and IHs may be the third, fourth or
higher level owners of investment certificates. These investment
certificates are based on the perceived value of the certificates
issued by another (4) financial institution who may have valued their
certificates they issued based on the investments they bought from
someone else (3 &2). The original loan company(1) no longer owns the
mortages it sold to bank (2) that bundled them into an investment
block of subprime mortages.

To get down to the roots of the problem a housing loan company issues
loans. Its sales personnel hype subprime loans because their earnings
and the loan company's is based on the size of the loan not the
borrowers' ability to service the loans. These subprime loans are
given on a higher interest rate to justify the risk. Some loan
company or bank then bundles the loans together and sells them to a
another bank or IH as a single unit of investment. The attraction is
that its unlikely all of the loans will default at any one time. This
will average out the good ones and still pay a good return. A key
point to remember is that the original loan company no longer owns the
mortages. The home owner has never met the new entity that he makes
his monthly payments to.

In good times this works. The primary owner of these bundled
investments borrows money from another bank or IH using these subprime
bundles as security. The figures look good and the lending bank is
only too happy to lend to a large borrower who looks very capable of
paying back the interest and the principal. The bank has a " loans
issued" asset that is bringing in earnings and its own book value
increases. This allowing it to borrow from other banks or to issue
more loans. That's what banks do. And so on as loans multiply
"assets" along the banking-financial system we have an economic boom.

Now when the subprime cirsis broke the company holding the real
mortages cannot pay the interest on the loans it borrowed from the
banks to buy these bundled mortages. It goes belly up. At last
count more than a hundred housing loan companies went belly up.
"Since late 2006
189
major U.S. lending operations have "imploded"

http://ml-implode.com/

The lending bank's only recourse is to seize the bundled mortages to
recover its loans. This bank is not in the housing loan business. It
will have trouble sorting out which mortage is in default, which one
can be rescheduled and which can be foreclosed. It doesn't know what
these mortages are actually worth now. The next bank that or the IH
that accepted the bundled subprime certificates and invested in them
doesn't even have the recourse to sieze the mortages. All they have
are pieces of pretty paper. They can't force the issuing institution
to make good and therefore drive them into insolvency and the investor
loses all.

If you can't follow the explanation so far neither can the banks and
FHs and they have no idea of what they will eventually lose for they
have no idea of what they do or do not own that is solvent. Morgan
Stanley took a $3.7 billion write off. CITIGroup is in for $15
billions. Everyone is waiting for more banks and FHs to announce
their losses and that's only the first round. Revised figures are
expected to be worse. In the UK the Treasury was foolish enough to
try to rescue Northern Rock and may have to write off UK pounds 23
billions (USD 47 billions) of tax payers' money.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2007/nov/23/northernrock.bankofenglandgovernor
(follow the back articles at the bottom of the current one) .

Governments and banking agencies have to unsnarl the banking system
first. Unsnarling individual mortage holders will have to wait.

For more reading on the subprime and coming economic crisis go to Asia
Times online at http://www.atimes.com/

Among the many excellent articles Mogumbo Guru writes hunorous
articles on a serious subject and provides a good insight into
financial and economics you won't get elsewhere.

sample: THE MOGAMBO GURU
More than 'sheets' hitting the fan
We're talking about banks' balance sheets, and the numbers seem so
horrific that we are suddenly thinking about banks going belly up.
(Nov 20, '07) Full article in
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Global_Economy/IK21Dj01.html

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== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 3:47 am
From: root

The Real Bev <bashley101+usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>I can't figure out whether I'm a blessing or a jinx.
>

A blessing.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 5:38 am
From: hchickpea@hotmail.com

On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 21:44:40 -0800, The Real Bev
<bashley101+usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

> It seems sensible to grow
>stuff that's expensive and/or awful at the grocery store, but squash? Yuk.

Typically $1/lb at the stores, and often dry and tasteless. As for
the taste of squash in general? <shrug> Some of us like it, some
don't.

>How's the drought treating you?

Kinda complicated. Have a bumper crop of walnuts, kale and collards
seem OK, and the recent rain has been a hinderance to some
construction. Today looks bright and cool, the rest of the weekend is
supposed to bring more rain.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Mortgage Escrow Account
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/7b04eea11e34855c?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 3:57 am
From: jueis

A mortgage escrow accounts is an account set up specifically by the
lender pay for property taxes, insurance premium. The escrow account
ensures that these items are paid by guaranteeing that there will
always be enough money to pay these bills. A mortgage escrow account
substantially reduces the risk of lapsed insurance coverage or
delinquent taxes.

http://qs138.com/real-estate-law/mortgages/mortgage-escrow-account.htm

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== 1 of 7 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 7:52 am
From: Joe

http://home.comcast.net/~plutarch/frugal-philly.html#bf

== 2 of 7 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 8:58 am
From: Al Bundy

I don't really consider those scams, just common marketing ploys of
our times.
My motto is: Just don't go.

If you don't go to the store you can't waste any money. Avoid shopping
as much as possible. Make a list. Know what you are looking for and
the relative value of things. It's the same with cars or toothpaste.
Sometimes there is a place for inferior quality at the right low price
if you can make it work.

Another motto I like is: If everybody else is doing it, there must be
something wrong with it.

== 3 of 7 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 9:06 am
From: George Grapman

Al Bundy wrote:
>
> I don't really consider those scams, just common marketing ploys of
> our times.
> My motto is: Just don't go.
>
> If you don't go to the store you can't waste any money. Avoid shopping
> as much as possible. Make a list. Know what you are looking for and
> the relative value of things. It's the same with cars or toothpaste.
> Sometimes there is a place for inferior quality at the right low price
> if you can make it work.
>
> Another motto I like is: If everybody else is doing it, there must be
> something wrong with it.

I do all my shopping in one swoop. Macy's Cellar is full of enough
kitchen devices that I can find something for everyone. 30-45 minutes
and I am done with it. For those who I can not think of anything a store
gift card is always welcome.

== 4 of 7 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 9:24 am
From: "Evelyn C. Leeper"

George Grapman wrote:
>
> I do all my shopping in one swoop. Macy's Cellar is full of enough
> kitchen devices that I can find something for everyone. 30-45 minutes
> and I am done with it. For those who I can not think of anything a store
> gift card is always welcome.

Just make sure that 1) it doesn't have service charges or a short
expiration time, 2) it is large enough that they can actually buy
something with it (or it's a store that you know they shop at a lot anyway).

<http://www.usatoday.com/printedition/money/20071114/b_giftcards_14.art.htm>

"Part of the problem is that the cards get lost or don't get used before
their expiration dates, or the amount on the card is too small to buy
anything decent."

Also:

*Fees. Some gift cards, particularly those issued by credit card
companies like American Express and MasterCard, have stiff fees,
including purchasing fees or fees to replace a lost card. Cards issued
by retailers usually don't have fees.

*Expiration dates. Some cards can expire within a year, or less.

*Inactivity fees. If you don't use the card within a certain amount of
time, you could be docked a monthly fee.

--
Evelyn C. Leeper
I believe I found the missing link between animal
and civilized man. It is us. -Konrad Lorenz

== 5 of 7 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 9:40 am
From: Goomba38

George Grapman wrote:

> I do all my shopping in one swoop. Macy's Cellar is full of enough
> kitchen devices that I can find something for everyone. 30-45 minutes
> and I am done with it. For those who I can not think of anything a store
> gift card is always welcome.

Macy's has great kitchen item sales! I've purchased many unadvertised
things there (year round) that were great deals. Combined with the
coupons they send me I have saved some serious coin.
This week I purchased two Ralph Lauren tableclothes (originally $50
each) for a final price of $14 each after sale and coupon discounts.
Macy's is a good basics store. Others may shop at Walmart or Target... I
like Macy's Housewares section!

== 6 of 7 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 10:49 am
From: BrotherSandMonkey

On Nov 23, 11:58 am, Al Bundy <MSfort...@mcpmail.com> wrote:
> I don't really consider those scams, just common marketing ploys of
> our times.
> My motto is: Just don't go.
>
> If you don't go to the store you can't waste any money. Avoid shopping
> as much as possible. Make a list. Know what you are looking for and
> the relative value of things. It's the same with cars or toothpaste.
> Sometimes there is a place for inferior quality at the right low price
> if you can make it work.
>
> Another motto I like is: If everybody else is doing it, there must be
> something wrong with it.

No wonder Christmas Day has been called a pagan holiday.

== 7 of 7 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 11:22 am
From: The Trucker

On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 07:52:03 -0800, Joe wrote:

> http://home.comcast.net/~plutarch/frugal-philly.html#bf

The biggest scam of all is the "manufacturer's rebate" that takes several
months and may not ever come. I have been waiting 6 months now for a
rebate that I have decided will never show up. Its sorta like medical
insurance: If you make it difficult enough to get reimbursed then the
plaintiff will eventually give up on it.

--
"I know no safe depository of the ultimate powers
of society but the people themselves; and
if we think them not enlightened enough to
exercise their control with a wholesome
discretion, the remedy is not to take it from
them, but to inform their discretion by
education." - Thomas Jefferson
http://GreaterVoice.org/extend

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http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/0d7ddccb4ab5430e?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
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== 1 of 1 ==
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== 1 of 1 ==
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 11:32 am
From: frugle.ng.benalt@xoxy.net

Hello,

I called up Equifax to put a fraud alert on my ssn and they
automatically forward the request to the other credit agencies. It is
on for 90 days and I had the option of 7 years. What happens is that
anyone applying for credit using your ssn is informed of the fraud
alert and you can specify your phone number that they can call to
confirm it is legitimate. I was wondering what the down side is to
having a fraud alert on yourself as it seems generally to be a frugal
way of protecting yourself from scammers etc. It may not be perfect
(they said that it won't help you if someone changes an address on an
existing credit card or something for example) but it sounds helpful,
though I imagine that I must be missing something...?

Regards.

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