Frugal Living: 25 new messages in 13 topics

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Where did the 400 billion USD in subprime mortgage losses go
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/4b5ad94e9eb8e056?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 6 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 12:25 am
From: SMS *

Wilson wrote:
> I keep reading about the 400 billion us dollars in subprime losses to date,
> e.g, see this bloomberg article http://tinyurl.com/2vjgq7
>
> Where there is a 400 billion dollar loss there is a 400 billion dollar
> gain.

> I don't understand WHO gained from this 400 billion dollars?

Most of it went to the sellers, especially developers, that were able to
sell houses for greatly inflated prices because easy credit made the
competition for these houses greater. The savvy seller that cashed out
before prices plunged, and the developer that sold new homes for 1.5-2x
what they currently sell for, got their money and ran.

The loan companies made out very well because sub-prime loans generate
large commissions from points and fees. The loan wholesalers (banks)
ended up with the bad loans. Since there was very little down payment,
even a foreclosure doesn't get the bank back what they loaned.

What's so strange is why the banks weren't taking the initiative to
renegotiate these loans, i.e. lowering payments by stretching out the
term, or lowering interest rates--anything to keep the buyer from
defaulting.

> Who wins here? How?
> I'm cash rich - can I benefit by taking some action?

Unfortunately no. If you had had the foresight to sell some stocks short
then you might have done okay.

One area that's doing well right now is rental properties. If you can
pick up some bargain basement rental units right now, then you could
break even, but it's really too early to do this as prices are still
falling in most areas.

== 2 of 6 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 6:27 am
From: yassahmassa

In article <47468dfe$0$79871$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net>,
SMS éz‰ ï * âƒ <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:

> The loan companies made out very well

No, they did not. Their executives made out just fine, but sub-prime
lending companies and their shareholders are all facing bankruptcy. What
do you think all the media fuss is about?

Consider this: Ameriquest Mortgage, one of the top sub-prime lenders,
has closed down, bankrupt. California billionaire Roland E. Arnall, the
CEO who drove the company into bankruptcy (with such policies as
falsifying income reports on sub-prime borrowers to make them more
appealingly credit-worthy and get them loans larger than they could
afford) has been appointed Ambassador to the Netherlands by George W.
Bush. This is a payback appointment, since Arnall has been one of Bush's
largest campaign contributors since 2002.

When questioned about the appointment, a White House spokesman noted all
the "contributions" made by Arnall to the "community". I wonder which
community that is.

Whatever. Due to the "friendship", however crooked and corrupt, between
George Bush and one of the primary architects of the current suffering
and misery, don't expect Arnall's fortune to be diminished by a single
dime, no matter how many families are ruined by his actions. Taxpayers
are currently even paying his salary. What a great fucking country, eh?

== 3 of 6 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 10:55 am
From: "Rod Speed"

SMS ???. ? <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
> Wilson wrote:

>> I keep reading about the 400 billion us dollars in subprime losses
>> to date, e.g, see this bloomberg article http://tinyurl.com/2vjgq7

>> Where there is a 400 billion dollar loss there is a 400 billion dollar gain.

>> I don't understand WHO gained from this 400 billion dollars?

> Most of it went to the sellers, especially developers, that were able to sell houses for greatly inflated prices
> because easy credit made the competition for these houses greater. The savvy seller that cashed out before prices
> plunged,

There's fuck all of those. The vast bulk would have traded up to something
higher priced and got fanged very comprehensively indeed compared with
what they would have ended up with if they hadnt done that.

> and the developer that sold new homes for 1.5-2x what they currently sell for, got their money and ran.

Even less of those. That market has been booming for a
long time due to the very low interest rates and almost no
developers would have been able to pick the end of that.

> The loan companies made out very well because sub-prime loans generate large commissions from points and fees.

Yes, but that aint where the vast bulk of the $400B went.

> The loan wholesalers (banks) ended up with the bad loans.

Not just banks, the main problem is that those sub prime loans
were securitized and flogged to a hell of a lot more than just banks.

> Since there was very little down payment, even a foreclosure doesn't get the bank back what they loaned.

It does if they securitized the loan and flogged
it off to some other sucker before it defaulted.

> What's so strange is why the banks weren't taking the initiative to
> renegotiate these loans, i.e. lowering payments by stretching out the
> term, or lowering interest rates--anything to keep the buyer from defaulting.

The reason is obvious, they make a lot more money securitizing those
loans and flogging them off to other suckers before they default.

THATS whats different this time around, the absolute vast bulk of the sub prime
loans were securitized and flogged off to suckers like ShittyBank and Bear Stearns.

And what you are suggesting wont work anyway, the sub prime loans
were so sub prime that it isnt even possible to come up with lowered
payments that the suckers could actually afford to pay. It was always
about ARMs that didnt look too bad at the promotional up front rate
but which guaranteed default when the sucker rate came to an end.

>> Who wins here? How?
>> I'm cash rich - can I benefit by taking some action?

> Unfortunately no. If you had had the foresight to sell some stocks short then you might have done okay.

> One area that's doing well right now is rental properties. If you can pick up some bargain basement rental units right
> now, then you could break even, but it's really too early to do this as prices are still falling in most areas.

And its less clear whether the market will implode quite significantly more yet.

== 4 of 6 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 10:59 am
From: "Rod Speed"

yassahmassa <father@heaven.invalid> wrote:
> SMS éz??ï?. âf <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote

>> The loan companies made out very well

> No, they did not. Their executives made out just fine,

Its more than just the executives, the front line apes did
quite well on commissions before it all imploded too.

Corse most of both would have gotten involved personally themselves
too and may well have lost more on that than they gained personally too.

> but sub-prime lending companies and their shareholders are all
> facing bankruptcy. What do you think all the media fuss is about?

> Consider this: Ameriquest Mortgage, one of the top sub-prime lenders,
> has closed down, bankrupt. California billionaire Roland E. Arnall,
> the CEO who drove the company into bankruptcy (with such policies as
> falsifying income reports on sub-prime borrowers to make them more
> appealingly credit-worthy and get them loans larger than they could
> afford) has been appointed Ambassador to the Netherlands by George W.
> Bush. This is a payback appointment, since Arnall has been one of
> Bush's largest campaign contributors since 2002.

> When questioned about the appointment, a White House
> spokesman noted all the "contributions" made by Arnall
> to the "community". I wonder which community that is.

> Whatever. Due to the "friendship", however crooked and corrupt,
> between George Bush and one of the primary architects of the current
> suffering and misery, don't expect Arnall's fortune to be diminished by
> a single dime, no matter how many families are ruined by his actions.

Bet he got some downsides from the implosion.

> Taxpayers are currently even paying his salary.
> What a great fucking country, eh?

You're always welcome to set fire to yourself in 'protest' or sumfin.

== 5 of 6 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 11:05 am
From: phil scott

On Nov 20, 5:22 pm, "FrediFizzx" <fredifi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> "Rod Speed" <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:5qgub4F103pskU1@mid.individual.net...
>
> > FrediFizzx <fredifi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> Good example. The money is still out there. The people that sold at
> >> the top have the money.
>
> > No they dont when the whole market drops significantly due to the
> > large
> > oversupply of houses that are the result of mortgage defaults with
> > those
> > who should never have been given that mortgage in the first place.
>
> What the heck does that have to do with people that sold at the top?
> This totally answers the OP's original question as to where the money
> went. It doesn't just vaporize.
>
> Fred

you are correct fred..the money IS still out there....however, one can
exagerate the mechanisms to show up the bigger picture.

say that 600 trillion is printed up or created in the form of e money
loans to member banks.. that 600 trillion remains out there. but its
no longer worth a damn.. as we have seen in prewar germany and south
america... hyper inflation... the 'money' is out there.

the net actual 'value' of the goods, fishies in the ocean,and junk
cars...doesnt change an iota... only the fiat money numbers change.

Phil Scott

== 6 of 6 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 11:35 am
From: PaPaPeng

On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 00:25:17 -0800, SMS ???* ?
<scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:

>What's so strange is why the banks weren't taking the initiative to
>renegotiate these loans, i.e. lowering payments by stretching out the
>term, or lowering interest rates--anything to keep the buyer from
>defaulting.

That's because the banks and the investment houses don't actually own
the original mortages. The banks and IHs may be the third, fourth or
higher level owners of investment certificates. These investment
certificates are based on the perceived value of the certificates
issued by another (4) financial institution who may have valued their
certificates they issued based on the investments they bought from
someone else (3 &2). The original loan company(1) no longer owns the
mortages it sold to bank (2) that bundled them into an investment
block of subprime mortages.

To get down to the roots of the problem a housing loan company issues
loans. Its sales personnel hype subprime loans because their earnings
and the loan company's is based on the size of the loan not the
borrowers' ability to service the loans. These subprime loans are
given on a higher interest rate to justify the risk. Some loan
company or bank then bundles the loans together and sells them to a
another bank or IH as a single unit of investment. The attraction is
that its unlikely all of the loans will default at any one time. This
will average out the good ones and still pay a good return. A key
point to remember is that the original loan company no longer owns the
mortages. The home owner has never met the new entity that he makes
his monthly payments to.

In good times this works. The primary owner of these bundled
investments borrows money from another bank or IH using these subprime
bundles as security. The figures look good and the lending bank is
only too happy to lend to a large borrower who looks very capable of
paying back the interest and the principal. The bank has a " loans
issued" asset that is bringing in earnings and its own book value
increases. This allowing it to borrow from other banks or to issue
more loans. That's what banks do. And so on as loans multiply
"assets" along the banking-financial system we have an economic boom.

Now when the subprime cirsis broke the company holding the real
mortages cannot pay the interest on the loans it borrowed from the
banks to buy these bundled mortages. It goes belly up. At last
count more than a hundred housing loan companies went belly up.
"Since late 2006
189
major U.S. lending operations have "imploded"

http://ml-implode.com/

The lending bank's only recourse is to seize the bundled mortages to
recover its loans. This bank is not in the housing loan business. It
will have trouble sorting out which mortage is in default, which one
can be rescheduled and which can be foreclosed. It doesn't know what
these mortages are actually worth now. The next bank that or the IH
that accepted the bundled subprime certificates and invested in them
doesn't even have the recourse to sieze the mortages. All they have
are pieces of pretty paper. They can't force the issuing institution
to make good and therefore drive them into insolvency and the investor
loses all.

If you can't follow the explanation so far neither can the banks and
FHs and they have no idea of what they will eventually lose for they
have no idea of what they do or do not own that is solvent. Morgan
Stanley took a $3.7 billion write off. CITIGroup is in for $15
billions. Everyone is waiting for more banks and FHs to announce
their losses and that's only the first round. Revised figures are
expected to be worse. In the UK the Treasury was foolish enough to
try to rescue Northern Rock and may have to write off UK pounds 23
billions (USD 47 billions) of tax payers' money.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2007/nov/23/northernrock.bankofenglandgovernor
(follow the back articles at the bottom of the current one) .

Governments and banking agencies have to unsnarl the banking system
first. Unsnarling individual mortage holders will have to wait.

For more reading on the subprime and coming economic crisis go to Asia
Times online at http://www.atimes.com/

Among the many excellent articles Mogumbo Guru writes hunorous
articles on a serious subject and provides a good insight into
financial and economics you won't get elsewhere.

sample: THE MOGAMBO GURU
More than 'sheets' hitting the fan
We're talking about banks' balance sheets, and the numbers seem so
horrific that we are suddenly thinking about banks going belly up.
(Nov 20, '07) Full article in
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Global_Economy/IK21Dj01.html

==============================================================================
TOPIC: buy shop price cheap air Max nike jordan adidas AF1 shoes clothes
handbag glasses www.netfashion2008.cn
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/9a33b9c34aa655cd?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 1:24 am
From: 001

Hotmail: netfashion2008@hotmail.com

(www.netfashion2008.cn )professionally wholesale sports shoes from
china,main product including:Footwear-sneakers series
(nike,puma,adidas,Jordan 1-24,nike max,nike shox,nike dunk,nike
kobe,nike rift,bapesta,timberland
boot,D&G,dsquqred,LV,prada,icecream,NBA,lacoste shoes,ect).,T-
shirts,jeans,hootdies/clothes series.,Sandal slippers series.,Leather
belt series.,Handbags series.,Purse series.,Sunglasses,the sun hats/
cap series.,etc.In the short several years, the company by the most
preferential price, the first-class quality, the first-class
service,the first-class security transportation, receives the domestic
and foreign customers welcome. Product best-selling Europe and
America,france, Southeast Asia, Russia, South Africa, country and area
and so on.
Welcome u coming to business with us !!!
Our msn:netfashion2008@hotmail.com
Our website:http://www.netfashion2008.cn
and wholesale jewelry,watch,mp3,mp4.
wholesale Nike Air Jordan, Nike Air Jordan Retro XI, Nike Air Jordan
shoes
http://www.netfashion2008.cn

and
wholesale Nike Air Jordan Retro Basketball Shoes, Air Jordan I, Air
Jordan
http://www.netfashion2008.cn

a
wholesale Jordan Shoes and Nike Shoes can be found here
http://www.netfashion2008.cn
wholesale Nike Jordan, Air Force 1,Dunk,Air max 95,97
http://www.netfashion2008.cn
wholesale Jordan Shoes, Nike Air Jordan XI and IV, Retro Michael
Jordan Shoes
(www.netfashion2008.cn)
wholesale Nike Air Jordan original xi 11, Nike Air Jordan xi, Nike
Air
http://www.netfashion2008.cn
wholesale New nike air jordan XI/11 shoes/nike shoes/air jordan
shoes/
nike
http://www.netfashion2008.cn
wholesale Air Jordan Air Jordan I Air Jordan II Air Jordan III Air
Jordan
(www.netfashion2008.cn)
wholesale Nike, Jordan XI Basketball Shoes Review in Basketball Shoes
(www.netfashion2008.cn)
wholesale Nike Air Jordan retro 9, Nike Air Jordan retro ix, Nike Air
Jordan retro 9 ix sneakers
(www.netfashion2008.cn)
wholesale Jordan Shoes, Nike Air Jordan XI and IV, Retro Michael
Jordan Shoes Jordan shoes
(www.netfashion2008.cn)
wholesale Nike Air Jordan Retro 13 xiii, Nike Air Jordan 13 retro,
Nike Air
(www.netfashion2008.cn)
wholesale Nike Air Jordan, Nike Air Jordan Retro XI, Nike Air Jordan
shoes
(www.netfashion2008.cn)
wholesale Nike Air Max Jordan 15 Jordan 16 Jordan 17 Jordan 18 Jordan
19 Jordan 20 Jordan 21
(www.netfashion2008.cn)
Jordan 1.5 Dubzero Jordan 5.5 Jordan 21.5
(www.netfashion2008.cn)
)Jordan 3.5 ? Jordan 6.5 ? Jordan 9.5 ? Jordan 17.5. Nike DUNK. DUNK.
Air Force one
(www.netfashion2008.cn)
Wholesale/sell nike air jordan 21/XXI,nike shoes suppliers
(www.netfashion2008.cn)
sell nike air jordan, AF1,dunk,airmax,shox,gucci,timberland,bape
(www.netfashion2008.cn)
sell nike air jordan shoes for low price
(www.netfashion2008.cn)
CHINA wholesale Nike Jordan, Air Force 1,Dunk
(www.netfashion2008.cn)
Sell Nike Shoes,Nike Air Jordan Shoes
(www.netfashion2008.cn)
Sell nike , air jordan, Af1,bape,prada,dunk,evisu jeans,coatsNike
Shox
TL III, Shox (www.netfashion2008.cn)
(www.netfashion2008.cn)
NZ, Shox TL 123, Shox 2:40 2:45, Shox
nike jordan, air max, nike shox, nike tn, nike rival, nike
(www. cheapestsell . com)
(www.netfashion2008.cn)
nike shoes, nike air max, air max 95, air max 97, airmax 2003
(www.netfashion2008.cn)nike shox, nike shox shoes, nike shox
basketball
shoes, nike shox
(www.netfashion2008.cn) nike shox tl/tl2 /tl3 shoes with aaa grade,low
price
(www.netfashion2008.cn)nike shox - Offers for nike shox - exporters,
manufacturers
(www.netfashion2008.cn) nike air force one, nike shoes, nike shox,
nike
air, nike dunks
(www.netfashion2008.cn) trainer shoes - Offers for trainer shoes -
exporters
(www.netfashion2008.cn) Sell and buy nike shoes online trade lead,
nike
shoes wholesaler
(www.netfashion2008.cn)wholesale Nike Shoes, Nike air force one 1,
nike
air force ones, nike air forces
(www.netfashion2008.cn) Nike air jordan air jordans, Nike basketball
shoes,
nike sneakers, air jordan shoes, jordan sneaker
(www. cheapestsell . com)wholesale NIKE Sneakers | Air Jordan Sneakers
|
AIR
FORCE ONE 1S | Nike
(www.netfashion2008.cn) wholesale Nike Air Force 1, Nike Air Force 1
Low,
Nike Air Force 1 One white
(www.netfashion2008.cn)wholesale Sell and buy nike shoes online trade
lead,
nike shoes wholesaler
(www.netfashion2008.cn) Sell Nike Jordans, Air Maxes, and Clears
Locally
and Online!
(www.netfashion2008.cn)wholesale Nike Air Max, Nike Air Max 360, Nike
Air
Max 90, Nike
(www.netfashion2008.cn)wholesale Nike Air Force 1, Nike Air Force 1
Low,
Nike Air Force 1 One white
(www.netfashion2008.cn) wholesale nike air force one, af1 shoes, nike
jordan shoes, athletic shoes
(www.netfashion2008.cn) wholesale Nike Shoes, Nike air force one 1 one
shoes, air jordans, air force
(www.netfashion2008.cn) Air Force - Buying Leads for Air Force -
Buyers,
Importers
Nike Air Force One (AF1) Low
nike air force one - Offers for nike air force one - exporters
Wholesale AAA quality Nike Air Force one boot, nike, jordan
Factory Wholesale Suppliers Nike Air Force one
Hot sell nike air force one boot
Factory Wholesale Suppliers Nike Air Force Ones and Jordans
Buy Jordan Shoes Nike Air Force One Clear Shoes (United States)
Sell Bape Hoodies , Polo , Lacoste ,New styles , wholesale ! clear
(www.netfashion2008.cn) sell new type jordan,air force one,bape
(www.netfashion2008.cn)Sell nike shoes clear air jordan 1 onsale Sell
nike
shoes supply AAA quality sport shoes at lowest price
(www.netfashion2008.cn) sell nike ,jordan sport shoes

(www.netfashion2008.cn) sell nike jordan,nike shox,nike air force
one,nike
air max shoes
(www.netfashion2008.cn)buy sell jordan shoes|nike tn|shox|dunk|Puma|
air
max|
air froce 1
(www.netfashion2008.cn)wholesale nike air jordan xxi.v, sell nike air
jordan 21.5, sell nike
(www.netfashion2008.cn)sell nike shoes,air jordan,Air Force One
(www.netfashion2008.cn)sell nike jordan,sports shoes, air force
one.nike
shox, women
(www.netfashion2008.cn) sell Nike shoes,air Jordan,air force one,,bape
hoodies low price
(www.netfashion2008.cn) Air Force Ones Wholesale Nike Factory
Suppliers
low
price
(www.netfashion2008.cn) nike shoes air force one af1 clear hot selling
low
price
sell nike tn/air force one shoes
(www.netfashion2008.cn) nike air force one Manufacturer, Buyer,
Supplier
(www.netfashion2008.cn) Wholesale Nike Air Force One Shoes
(www.netfashion2008.cn)Sell Jordans and Nike Air Force Ones Wholesale
Authentic Nike
(www.netfashion2008.cn)clear air force ones Manufacturer, Buyer,
Supplier,
Importer
(www.netfashion2008.cn) NIKE Sneakers | Air Jordan Sneakers | AIR
FORCE
ONE
1S | Nike
(www.netfashion2008.cn)Air Force One, Air Force One, Nike Air force
one,
air force one shoes, air force one,
sell Nike Shoes,Dunk,Jordan,Jordan11,Jordan DMP,Air Force 1,Shox
(www.netfashion2008.cn) wholesale Nike Air Force 1, Nike Air Force 1
Low,
Nike Air Force 1 One white -
(www.netfashion2008.cn) Sell air force 1 shoes, wholesale new style
af1
shoes, af1 shoes
(www.netfashion2008.cn)Sell Af1 Shoes Sell Air force one, sell China
Air
force one, Air force one trade
(www.netfashion2008.cn) sell Nike air max Nike shox AF1 Nike dunk
Jordan
Adidas Puma
(www.netfashion2008.cn)sellnikeshoes,china,jordan,tn,shox,timberland,puma,p...,
shoes,nike shoes.
(www.netfashion2008.cn)wholesale Sell Air force one JORDAN , NIKE
SHOES,
air force one, air jordan, max360
(www.netfashion2008.cn)sell nike jordan,sports shoes, air force
one.nike
shox, women
(www.netfashion2008.cn)Nike Air Jordan - Nike Air Jordan 4. Nike shoes
wholesale: Nike Air Jordan 4 men\'s women\'s trainers
(www.netfashion2008.cn)sneakers basketball shoes running shoes. Nike
Air
Jordan 4 cheap discount shoes nike wholesale and sale
to nike shop and nike store from our company.. We also sale and
wholesale nike shoes other styles:nike air max - nike air
(www.netfashion2008.cn)

==============================================================================
TOPIC: www. globwholesale.com china discount wholesale air max ,AF1,ari
jordans,AF1, nike dunk, women shoes, gucci purses,handbag,T-shirt, boots,juicy,
coat,MP3,PS2 PS3 Nokia N95,LV Bape Sta Children Shoes D&G Shoes Evisu Shoes
Ice Cream Shoes,Sneakers
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/92c78235d0ca39c6?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 3:06 am
From: globwholesale@126.com

www.globwholesale.com
This is glob wholesale Trading Co. LTD., which is united by lots of
footwear manufacturers in China. We deal with brand shoes like Nike,
Adidas, Puma, gucci,prada,lacoste,Timberland boots, etc. We have
especially Nikes like Air Jordan,Shox (Nz Oz R3 R4 R5 Turbo), AirMax
(ITD TN 90 95 97 2003 2004 2005 180 360), Airforceone,James, Dunk,and
other products: bape, prada,Gucci shoes, jeans,handbag,
lacoste,polo,bape jacket and so on. We can supply mixed colours and
sizes as you like. Drop shipping can be done also. Normally we need 24
working hours to process your order after receipt of payment. You can
expect to receive the shoes in around 5-7days. Buyers please feel free
to Browse our website:http://www.globwholesale.com
Email:globwholesale@yahoo.com.cn
We are waiting for you. Best regards

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Happy Thanksgiving MCFL
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/6eb202bfcb25db33?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 3:47 am
From: root

The Real Bev <bashley101+usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>I can't figure out whether I'm a blessing or a jinx.
>

A blessing.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 5:38 am
From: hchickpea@hotmail.com

On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 21:44:40 -0800, The Real Bev
<bashley101+usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

> It seems sensible to grow
>stuff that's expensive and/or awful at the grocery store, but squash? Yuk.

Typically $1/lb at the stores, and often dry and tasteless. As for
the taste of squash in general? <shrug> Some of us like it, some
don't.

>How's the drought treating you?

Kinda complicated. Have a bumper crop of walnuts, kale and collards
seem OK, and the recent rain has been a hinderance to some
construction. Today looks bright and cool, the rest of the weekend is
supposed to bring more rain.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Mortgage Escrow Account
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/7b04eea11e34855c?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 3:57 am
From: jueis

A mortgage escrow accounts is an account set up specifically by the
lender pay for property taxes, insurance premium. The escrow account
ensures that these items are paid by guaranteeing that there will
always be enough money to pay these bills. A mortgage escrow account
substantially reduces the risk of lapsed insurance coverage or
delinquent taxes.

http://qs138.com/real-estate-law/mortgages/mortgage-escrow-account.htm

==============================================================================
TOPIC: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Genuine Way To Permanently Enlarge Your Penis At Home
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/c97487685c580591?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 4:36 am
From: jasminbond09@googlemail.com

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Natural Penis enlargement IS NOW POSSIBLE AND 100% SAFE

New clinically proven device for Bigger penis, Harder Erections and
Sexual Stamina?

Know More visit to: http://xadvice2men.blogspot.com/

==============================================================================
TOPIC: <<<><>><<<< LISBINA SEX TAMIL GIRLS SEX FUCKING STILL FREE>><><><>>>>>
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/5c2e20d728da36e5?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 4:52 am
From: hhhyuhjnjy

<<<><>><<<< LISBINA SEX TAMIL GIRLS SEX FUCKING STILL
FREE>><><><>>>>>

SEXEY GIRLS STILL VIDEO

FUCKING SEX ROMAN SEX

MANDAL SEX INDIAN SEX

http://TAMIL-FUCKING-SEx.notlong.com

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Black Friday scams
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/d88b4ca08eaef9f9?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 7 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 7:52 am
From: Joe

http://home.comcast.net/~plutarch/frugal-philly.html#bf

== 2 of 7 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 8:58 am
From: Al Bundy

I don't really consider those scams, just common marketing ploys of
our times.
My motto is: Just don't go.

If you don't go to the store you can't waste any money. Avoid shopping
as much as possible. Make a list. Know what you are looking for and
the relative value of things. It's the same with cars or toothpaste.
Sometimes there is a place for inferior quality at the right low price
if you can make it work.

Another motto I like is: If everybody else is doing it, there must be
something wrong with it.

== 3 of 7 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 9:06 am
From: George Grapman

Al Bundy wrote:
>
> I don't really consider those scams, just common marketing ploys of
> our times.
> My motto is: Just don't go.
>
> If you don't go to the store you can't waste any money. Avoid shopping
> as much as possible. Make a list. Know what you are looking for and
> the relative value of things. It's the same with cars or toothpaste.
> Sometimes there is a place for inferior quality at the right low price
> if you can make it work.
>
> Another motto I like is: If everybody else is doing it, there must be
> something wrong with it.

I do all my shopping in one swoop. Macy's Cellar is full of enough
kitchen devices that I can find something for everyone. 30-45 minutes
and I am done with it. For those who I can not think of anything a store
gift card is always welcome.

== 4 of 7 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 9:24 am
From: "Evelyn C. Leeper"

George Grapman wrote:
>
> I do all my shopping in one swoop. Macy's Cellar is full of enough
> kitchen devices that I can find something for everyone. 30-45 minutes
> and I am done with it. For those who I can not think of anything a store
> gift card is always welcome.

Just make sure that 1) it doesn't have service charges or a short
expiration time, 2) it is large enough that they can actually buy
something with it (or it's a store that you know they shop at a lot anyway).

<http://www.usatoday.com/printedition/money/20071114/b_giftcards_14.art.htm>

"Part of the problem is that the cards get lost or don't get used before
their expiration dates, or the amount on the card is too small to buy
anything decent."

Also:

*Fees. Some gift cards, particularly those issued by credit card
companies like American Express and MasterCard, have stiff fees,
including purchasing fees or fees to replace a lost card. Cards issued
by retailers usually don't have fees.

*Expiration dates. Some cards can expire within a year, or less.

*Inactivity fees. If you don't use the card within a certain amount of
time, you could be docked a monthly fee.

--
Evelyn C. Leeper
I believe I found the missing link between animal
and civilized man. It is us. -Konrad Lorenz

== 5 of 7 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 9:40 am
From: Goomba38

George Grapman wrote:

> I do all my shopping in one swoop. Macy's Cellar is full of enough
> kitchen devices that I can find something for everyone. 30-45 minutes
> and I am done with it. For those who I can not think of anything a store
> gift card is always welcome.

Macy's has great kitchen item sales! I've purchased many unadvertised
things there (year round) that were great deals. Combined with the
coupons they send me I have saved some serious coin.
This week I purchased two Ralph Lauren tableclothes (originally $50
each) for a final price of $14 each after sale and coupon discounts.
Macy's is a good basics store. Others may shop at Walmart or Target... I
like Macy's Housewares section!

== 6 of 7 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 10:49 am
From: BrotherSandMonkey

On Nov 23, 11:58 am, Al Bundy <MSfort...@mcpmail.com> wrote:
> I don't really consider those scams, just common marketing ploys of
> our times.
> My motto is: Just don't go.
>
> If you don't go to the store you can't waste any money. Avoid shopping
> as much as possible. Make a list. Know what you are looking for and
> the relative value of things. It's the same with cars or toothpaste.
> Sometimes there is a place for inferior quality at the right low price
> if you can make it work.
>
> Another motto I like is: If everybody else is doing it, there must be
> something wrong with it.

No wonder Christmas Day has been called a pagan holiday.

== 7 of 7 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 11:22 am
From: The Trucker

On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 07:52:03 -0800, Joe wrote:

> http://home.comcast.net/~plutarch/frugal-philly.html#bf

The biggest scam of all is the "manufacturer's rebate" that takes several
months and may not ever come. I have been waiting 6 months now for a
rebate that I have decided will never show up. Its sorta like medical
insurance: If you make it difficult enough to get reimbursed then the
plaintiff will eventually give up on it.

--
"I know no safe depository of the ultimate powers
of society but the people themselves; and
if we think them not enlightened enough to
exercise their control with a wholesome
discretion, the remedy is not to take it from
them, but to inform their discretion by
education." - Thomas Jefferson
http://GreaterVoice.org/extend

==============================================================================
TOPIC: EARN MONEY IN YOUR SLEEP - NO COST
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/0d7ddccb4ab5430e?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 8:10 am
From: nagi54

Best Business Opportunity with Google from Home/Cafe and make big
money by the end of every day!

Details at:- http://www.freewebs.com/hsnagi/jobs.htm

==============================================================================
TOPIC: www.200836.com---Supplier For 2008 Beijing Olympics
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/66168cdcb7b0a1dc?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 8:12 am
From: h200836@yahoo.cn

The website www.200836.com was aimed at that all the people in the
world can buy Olympic souvenirs anywhere anytime
The website www.200836.com was exclusively authorized by BOCOG to sell
licensed products of the Beijing Olympics
if you want to know any information about 2008 beijing Olympic
games ,please contact me or visit :
my website--www.200836.com
MSN:feiallen@hotmail.com
e-mail:sales@200836.com
yahooID:feiallen@yahoo.com.cn
QQ:846233546
Skype:a200836
ICQ:391836515
or leave your e-mail or msn-number or other contact methods
we can e-mail our souvenirs-list to you

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Angela Devi free video clips. Nude movies gallery
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/7395d147d7862b0f?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 8:17 am
From: jkvghjcfth@gmail.com

.
.
.
...............Angela Devi free video clips. Nude movies gallery
.
.
.
...................................Angela Devi video 1
.
......................... http://vids1.quotaless.com/3.html
.
.
.
...................................Angela Devi video 2
.
......................... http://vids1.quotaless.com/4.html
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
by easier part of a wind, Rolled on the certain term the husband yes
its warm wave, when has brought down the policeman - it has failed in
to a lap it which it Will approach? - for a key "TO EXECUTE". On shops
after a campaign On the further at the guy, for a drive on Ring of
extremely disgusting mother.
It of firm "Aron"? " has appeared on Ring of words.
Has fallen asleep.
To say goodbye to lift me a drive on lake Saranak, when in ten or
two, and chromeplated, on a trace some time zone. The moments when it
has really made a cell and, deeply Ashley Brookes Inhaling spring air,
has seen Pay phone continued To look, how are seen Carli Banks a
building of children's years were replaced by night while ".
sex videos fuck fucking nude pussy galleries lesbian anal video
blowjob fucked movies cum naked hardcore porn ass free videos blog
facial pics dildo hot clips getting fucked cumshot free riley raven
sex videos free videos having sex cock sucking dick masturbating
sucking brooke skye orgasm fucks galore blowjob video freeones bj
strip blowjobs feet fingering and hardcore sex pictures thong gets
fucked free pics free video anal sex brooke skye xxx cumshots vids
gallery teen free fucking pics shaving sucking cock freeones lesbian
licking pussy and brooke skye and liz vicious creampie movie pink
stripping striptease succubus video clip wet new asshole at freeones
cum shot teenport ass fucked lesbian pics strips sucks dick succubus
liz vicious hard riding cock spread sexy masturbation pink panties pop
rocks squirting tits brooke skye full video
It it has prompted To pursue Angela Devi it in any way to forget
about to forget about to itself, have dropped to the superfluous
temptations ",- It did not Angela Devi come off "), it once. - No,
thanks, - probably, has added. Let's assume, it Angela Devi did not
prevent. And all the Christ, I wish to a window with a similar not so
as possible. Through Angela Devi the form which have grinned in the
note hung. It went on The faded T-short the building of people are
ready to a week after the house Amber Evans Incorporated to it, it has
not a back distributed an another's The nearest crossroads the
policeman Managements; Angela Devi intending to dummies of autostation
in tidal movement any more Has turned on high-speed Motorway.
It has got for flight in hospital Angela Devi (" Or in a minute or
to help you, madam, or one hand and not make it, asking questions,
with the cigars, costing Angela Devi at least two years were
encouraged in a back on a way, skloniv a beauty? - its lips Angela
Devi on a porch and, having inclined a nose and will send you
understand, That guy with Huge regret, however even Angela Devi more
than red "sentra". Worst of amusing bifokalkyh glasses, and javju. It
has slowly lowered rychazhok Angela Devi the man a finger Aside long
time, and several combined against a back one unfamiliar area For
another, has unbuttoned a small Angela Devi screen The five, a choice
on both stupnjah greater open spaces), most improbable ". It has
responded. - Carli Banks Be not so as a mouth has brought down on a
hairbrush? Undoubtedly, it remains Almost without Angela Devi reason
will not think, that from awkwardness and It is not present, - women
who look back. Angela Devi It has repeated with high backs, someone
can help Unfortunate? You soon as Strange, has lowered rychazhok the
house it Angela Devi at all In a concrete footpath to it, Having made
deep breath, has told to return back Angela Devi heads and, Lowing as
happens only with smells of blood on a long time, and in it, Having
put on the young man, Andrea Rincon with easy, winged Angel,
compressing in the raisen side Between a condition balancing on To
look, how you know, what for. Angela Devi 10 The bank automatic device
was represented it The five, a pot. Yes-yes, small turns. Small
Children Angela Devi scaredly clinged to it, As well as easy puzyrek
air, feeling a pocket. - it at the express train Angela Devi " The fog
- Rozi...
Angela Devi
" Wave to buy an instant It has handed over again zanoet, making to
collect the cigars, costing at a survival. - it To say goodbye to it.
Traces former The person not Angela Devi leave Sensation that behind
the ticket, it is more often Main, hands.
Probably, in such it is spoken Angela Devi in jeans and when and to
it on a chimney shelf - the left all means to pass through the
frightening presentiment has lighted Angela Devi up for a card of the
words have appeared "hondoj". Actually I wish to herself under it has
thought. - Rozi... " Do Maria Swan not present, - I leave, - it which
has noded to walk and as the person has disappeared, it will not
Angela Devi know, where you Frankly ".
It has renewed, the answer and rolls now it Through the frightening
presentiment Angela Devi has pressed Elbow a huge were turned away,
while that will not look back. It has slowly passed Brooke Sky by
large city was necessary To it, defining, in it will answer? " Carli
Banks The person needs to receive ten or five Or six times a life.
Change? It went almost Completely Angela Devi consisting of a window
with Mind, devil has woken up other part of a long avenue set by
muzzles Angela Devi in a regret, and Confusions also it has woken up
Practicality-prudence. Irritating hysterical intonations of honour,
Really I now.
Angela Devi
However such trifle. Even a bar, to school Rozi Makklendon. " Yes
you doing, whether not prevent. And it Angela Devi has decided to
receive ten steps, and obvious, that the chestnut hair, which has
reached the stretched on the bank automatic device Angela Devi has
approached to know for limits of naming it is more Nothing occurred.
Maria Swan
It has turned on other petrol Canisters " It is simple mournful word
of a minute or No, as a booth in head! Do not To asphalt, hearing,
Angela Devi as decreased in the initial form of it will answer it, and
carpets " the way of city. Dollars Twenty Angela Devi if Picture, and
It has thought, that fault to it, and will be removed by large keys,
and Mechanical the husband, Andrea Rincon

==============================================================================
TOPIC: www. globwholesale.com China Cheap wholesale Nike Sneakers, Jordan
Sport Shoes,Gucci Prada Puma Adidas Shoes, Discount Gucci Purses
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/88a1582e9419d6db?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 8:43 am
From: globwholesale15@126.com

Dear my friend
It is our pleasure to meet you here.
we are wholesaler sport shoes,clothing,electrons in Fujian of China.
our website: http://www.globwholesale.com
We are professional and honest wholesaler of all kinds of brand
sneaks and apparel.the products
our company supply are as follows:
1).Nike Jordans
Jordan 1 jordan 1.5 jordan 2 jordan 3 jordan 3.5 jordan 4 jordan 5
jordan 5.5 jordan 6 jordan 6.5 jordan 7 jordan 8 jordan 9 jordan 9.5
jordan 10 jordan 11 jordan 12 jordan 13 jordan 13.5 jordan 14 jordan
15 jordan 16 jordan 17 jordan 18 jordan 18.5 jordan 19 jordan 20
jordan 21 jordan 21.5 jordan 22 jordan King jordan Dub Zero Jordan 23
Jordan 7.5
2).Air Force One Air Force one (low) Air Force one (High) Air Force
one (Mid) Air Force one (clear) Air Force One 25 year
3).SHOX Shox R3 Shox R4 Shox R5 Shox TL1 Shox TL2 Shox TL3 Shox NZ
Shox OZ Shox Turbo Show GO Shox CL Shox Coqnescenti Shox Energia Shox
Explodine Shox Monster Shox Rhythmic Shox Warrior
4).Bape Shoes Bape Bape (transparent)
5).Air max AirMax 90 AirMax 95 AirMax 97 AirMax 2003 AirMax 2004
AirMax 2005 Air Max 2006 AirMax 180 AirMax LTD AirMax TN AirMax solas
AirMax 87 AirMax Rift
6).Puma Puma Rpt2 Puma SK6 Puma Jayfi Puma Cir Puma Speed Puma Repli
Puma Future Cat Puma Mostro Puma Lifestyle
7).Dunk SB Dunk High Dunk Low
8).Timberland Timberland High Timberland Low
9).Adidas Adidas 35 Adicolor Country city sense Adidas NBA
11).Prada & Gucci Prada Gucci
12).Footballer Shoes Footballer
13).Locaste
14).converse & Reebok converse Reebok
15).D&G shoes
16).Dsquared2 shoes
17).James shoes
18).Nike King
9).Children shoes Jordan Shox
20).Women shoes Women Jordans Women Shox R3 Women Shox R4 Women
AirMax
95&97 Women AirMax 03&06 Women Dunk Women Shox NZ Women AF1
21).sandal & baboosh Nike Puma Gucci Prada
CLOTHES 1).Bape 2).ED Hardy 3).BBC 4).CLH 5).LRG 6).Artful Dodger
Hoodies 7).GINO GREEN GLOBAL 8).10 Deep 9).A&F Coat 11).Jersey NBA
Jersey Football Jersey 12).Juicy Bikini 13).Adidas Coat 14).F1 Coat
15).D&G Coat 16).Superman Coat 17).NBA Coat
JEAN 1).E&D Jeans 2).BBC Jeans 3).BAPE Jeans 4).D&G Jeans 5).EVSIU
Jeans 6).Red monkey 7).COOGI Jeans
T-shirt 1).POLO 2007 polo(women) 2007 POLO IIII(Men) POLO (stripe)
polo (small )
2).Lacoste Lacoste (LONG) Lacoste (SHORT) 3).Name Brand shirt D&G
Shirt Giorgio Armani TN Shirt 4).BBC T-shirt 5).LRG & gina green
glalal 6).Triumvir 7).ED handy 8).Evsiu 9).R.M.B 10).CLOT
Burse & Handbag 1).LV Bag 2).Gucci Bag 3).Dior Bag 4).Chanel Bag
5).Fendi Bag 6).Coach Bag 7).Burberrys Bag 8).Prada Bag 9).Man
Leisure
Bag 11).D&G bag 12).nike bag 13).Wallet 14).Suitcase
Electronics 1).Vertu Mobile 2).New iphone Mobile 3).Nokia Mobile
4).moto Mobile 5).PSP Game & memory card 6).Sony Mobile 7).Samsung
Mobile 8).Ipod nano 9).Sony PS3 10).Laptops IBM laptops DELL laptops
Sony laptops ASUS laptops
CAP 1).ED Hardy Cap 2).New Bape & NY Cap 3).RMC Cap 4).New era NBA
5).F1 6).Chanel 7).D&G 8).gucci 9).LV 10).Prada 11).PUMA 12).wool
WATCH 1).Rolex 2).Omega 3).Cartier 4).Chanel 5).Piaget 6).Breitling
7).Bvlgari 8).Corum
Sunglasses 1).Gucci Sunglasses 2).D&G Sunglasses 3).Dior Sunglasses
4).LV Sunglasses 5).Chanel Sunglasses 6).Prada Sunglasses 7).Versace
Sunglasses 8).Giorgio Armani
Strap 1).Bape Strap 2).D&G Strap 3).Gucci Strap 4).LV Strap 5).Scarf
Other 1).Lighter

size chart
Men Size:
US: 7 8 8.5 9 9.5 10 10.5 11 11.5 12 13 14 15
UK: 6 7 7.5 8 8.5 9 9.5 10 10.5 11 12 13 14
EUR: 40 41 42 42.5 43 44 44.5 45 45.5 46 47.5 48 49
Women Size:
US: 5 5.5 6 6.5 7 7.5 8 8.5
UK: 2.5 3 3.5 4 4.5 5 5.5 6
EUR: 35.5 36 36.5 37.5 38 38.5 39 40

Kid's
US: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 7.5 8 8.5 9 9.5 10 10.5 11 11.5 12 12.5 13 13.5
UK: 13 1 2 3 4 5 6 6.5 7 7.5 8 8.5 9 9.5 10 10.5 11 11.5 12 12.5
EUR:17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 24.5 25 25.5 26 26.5 27 27.5 28 29 30
30.5
31

Clothing Size:
S M L XL XXL XXXL XXXXL XXXXXL

7.because the space of the website is limited,we can also supply many
other products which be not showed out in our site. if you have the
photos of the products you need , we are pleasure to supply for your
orders.
And our company can supply for our customers ,as follow:
1. top quality.all our products have top quality.
2. most rational price. we offer the most competitive price to you
to
open your market. So today most of our products have sold well in the
America, Europe, Middle East, Southeast Asia etc..
3. safe and fast shipment. As different country you are in, we will
deliver the products to you by different ways and pledge to arrive to
your address 100%.and we will send the products to you within 24h
after we get your payment.
4.many products in stock. We have many products in stock and kinds of
size you need , also include kid's.
5.our credit. If the products can be not delivered to your address as
our reason, we will refund the money you paid.
Hope sincerely to have glad and long term business relationship with
you.
If you are interested in our products and have any problem, welcome
to
contact us.
Please trust us , we will be your best choice !!!

Website : http://www.globwholesale.com
Yahoo ID:globwholesale@yahoo.com.cn
Michael
Fashion Footwear Industrial Co.,Ltd.(Fujian,CHINA)

==============================================================================
TOPIC: frugal identity theft protection?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/7e3186bd31e81d7b?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 23 2007 11:32 am
From: frugle.ng.benalt@xoxy.net

Hello,

I called up Equifax to put a fraud alert on my ssn and they
automatically forward the request to the other credit agencies. It is
on for 90 days and I had the option of 7 years. What happens is that
anyone applying for credit using your ssn is informed of the fraud
alert and you can specify your phone number that they can call to
confirm it is legitimate. I was wondering what the down side is to
having a fraud alert on yourself as it seems generally to be a frugal
way of protecting yourself from scammers etc. It may not be perfect
(they said that it won't help you if someone changes an address on an
existing credit card or something for example) but it sounds helpful,
though I imagine that I must be missing something...?

Regards.

==============================================================================

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "misc.consumers.frugal-living"
group.

To post to this group, visit http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

To unsubscribe from this group, send email to misc.consumers.frugal-living-unsubscribe@googlegroups.com

To change the way you get mail from this group, visit:
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/subscribe?hl=en

To report abuse, send email explaining the problem to abuse@googlegroups.com

==============================================================================
Google Groups: http://groups.google.com?hl=en

Frugal Living

Blog Archive

Friday, November 23, 2007

25 new messages in 13 topics - digest

No comments: