Frugal Living: Feb 18, 2008

Monday, February 18, 2008

25 new messages in 9 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/e565eaf98e0e70b6?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 16 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 11:06 am
From: "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"

On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 10:55:41 -0800 (PST), N8N wrote:
> I have yet to see a drain valve for a water heater that didn't screw
> into the tank with a 3/4" pipe thread. I imagine the Sears rep just
> told you it wasn't replaceable to keep you from messing with it.

Or he didn't know and he was just hazarding a guess disguised as fact.\
This reference says they can be replaced with a ball valve.
http://www.high-performance-hvac.com/heating/hot-water-heaters/hot-water-heater-maintenance-tips.html

>> Q6: How much space should be left between the walls and the heater?
> Your installation instructions should have that info.

THey say six inches but the old one was less than half that.

== 2 of 16 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 12:08 pm
From: "hallerb@aol.com"

On Feb 18, 11:42�am, "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"
<donna....@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 09:18:04 -0800 (PST), N8N wrote:
> > If you try to remove it next year, you should be able to do it
>
> Good point. We should remove the anode every year so that it *can* be
> removed when it comes time to replace it with a similarly sized one.
>
> One thing we still need to do is attach the drainage pipe from the
> Temperature & Pressure valve to near the floor in case of an overflow.http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2274211119/
>
> Is the drain pipe mandatory (can we just leave it off)?
>
> It seems to me a drain pipe *should* be mandatory because you don't want
> hot water spewing forth at eye level. However, due to configuration
> changes, even with the taller tank, the old drainage tube is too long and
> too close to the tank so we can't just screw the old one in. We have to
> modify it somehow to make it shorter and move it away from the wood base.
>
> QUESTION:
> How many inches ABOVE the garage floor should it end?http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2030/2273228265_01c9df0f48_m.jpg
>
> If we can end ABOVE the 18 inch wooden platform, that would be easier.
> If we have to end six or so inches above the garage cement floor, that
> would necessitate an elbow to get past the wooden base but it seems a
> horizontal line can clog causing a safety hazard.
>
> I googled but did not find any specs as to HOW MANY INCHES above either the
> floor or better yet, the wooden platform, that a drain pipe must terminate.
>
> Can someone recommend a solution?
>
> Thanks
> Donna

new plastic [pipe and fitting will repace the drain line easily.......
no biggie

replace the galvanized all of it before it leaks and causes mold ,
structural damage or a flood.

it will fix all flow issues and make your home more valuable

== 3 of 16 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 11:14 am
From: "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"

On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 14:40:50 -0500, Stormin Mormon wrote:
> Why did you remove the anode of the old heater? Just curious?

Better than curious.
I wanted to learn if the anode was corroded in which case it was a
diagnostic tool as to what caused the failure of the prior tank.

By the way, I found some requirements for the installation of the pressure
relief valve plumbing ... which must "not terminate more than 6 inches (152
mm) above the floor". Darn. Now we need to horizontalize it, creating the
chance of clog causing further danger to occupants! :(

Donna

http://codes.ohio.gov/oac/4101:3-5-01

504.6 Requirements for discharge piping. The discharge piping serving a
pressure relief valve, temperature relief valve or combination thereof
shall:
1. Not be directly connected to the drainage system.
2. Discharge through an air gap located in the same room as the water
heater.
3. Not be smaller than the diameter of the outlet of the valve served and
shall discharge full size to the air gap.
4. Serve a single relief device and shall not connect to piping serving any
other relief device or equipment.
5. Discharge to the floor, to an indirect waste receptor or to the
outdoors. Where discharging to the outdoors in areas subject to freezing,
discharge piping shall be first piped to an indirect waste receptor through
an air gap located in a conditioned area.
6. Discharge in a manner that does not cause personal injury or structural
damage.
7. Discharge to a termination point that is readily observable by the
building occupants.
8. Not be trapped.
9. Be installed so as to flow by gravity.
10. Not terminate more than 6 inches (152 mm) above the floor or waste
receptor.
11. Not have a threaded connection at the end of such piping.
12. Not have valves or tee fittings.

== 4 of 16 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 12:26 pm
From: "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"

On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 12:08:17 -0800 (PST), hallerb@aol.com wrote:
> new plastic [pipe and fitting will repace the drain line easily.......
> no biggie

This implies we can't use plastic for the discharge tube:
http://www.usinspect.com/WaterHeaters/HWaterTPRVDischargeTube.asp

Here's what it says ... (catch that last counter-intuitive line!)...
Donna

A discharge tube is a tube or pipe that is attached to the TPR valve that
directs the superheated water down to the floor and away from anyone in the
discharge area to prevent scalding or burning.

The pipe itself must be made of a material that is rated for both high
temperature and pressure, which includes most rigid wall copper or iron.
Also, the size of the pipe must match the opening size of the TPR valve
discharge (usually ¾ inch).

The tube must terminate no more than 6 inches from the floor or be directed
to the exterior of the home.

If the discharge tube is routed to the exterior, the pipe must discharge 6
to 24 inches from grade, with a downward slope to prevent the pipe from
clogging or forming a trap. Blocked discharge tubes will prevent the
superheated water from discharging and will burst.

Though counterintuitive, it is often recommended that the discharge tube
terminate next to the water heater so that any malfunction of the water
heater will be more readily noticed.

== 5 of 16 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 12:29 pm
From: "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"

> The tube must terminate no more than 6 inches from the floor or be directed
> to the exterior of the home.

Notice this one says six to twelve inches above the floor:
http://www.factsfacts.com/MyHomeRepair/PressureRelief.htm

And, again, note the restrictions on the materials.

The discharge tube overflow pipe "must be made of a material that's rated
for both high temperature and pressure. This includes most rigid wall
copper, iron and, in most places, chlorinated polyvinylchloride (CPVC
plastic not regular PVC) pipe. The pipe size must match the opening size
of the TPR valve discharge (usually ¾ inch). It must terminate 6"-12"
above the floor, and the end cannot be threaded or have a fitting which
permits connecting a plug or cap."

== 6 of 16 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 2:10 pm
From: "Bob M."

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
message news:Hjhuj.8178$5K1.598@newssvr12.news.prodigy.net...
>
> 2. Even Superman couldn't would have a tough time removing mine ...
>

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2033/2274085498_52c3b7d618.jpg?v=0
>
> Given it took a pipe wrench plus a huge cheater bar to remove the anode
> with the water heater removed and blocked on the ground ... and given that

On your new heater, take the anode out and wrap the threads once with teflon
tape or anti-seize compound. Much easier to remove the next time; still
provides protection too.

== 7 of 16 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 3:24 pm
From: "James Sweet"

"Bob M." <no@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:0cSdnQ18vbThnyfanZ2dnUVZ_qainZ2d@bresnan.com...
> "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote
> in message news:Hjhuj.8178$5K1.598@newssvr12.news.prodigy.net...
>>
>> 2. Even Superman couldn't would have a tough time removing mine ...
>>

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2033/2274085498_52c3b7d618.jpg?v=0
>>
>> Given it took a pipe wrench plus a huge cheater bar to remove the anode
>> with the water heater removed and blocked on the ground ... and given
>> that
>
> On your new heater, take the anode out and wrap the threads once with
> teflon tape or anti-seize compound. Much easier to remove the next time;
> still provides protection too.

Doesn't it still need to be grounded to the tank?

I remember from boats that the sacrificial anode needs a good solid ground
connection to the engine or transmission block.

== 8 of 16 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 3:31 pm
From: "hallerb@aol.com"

On Feb 18, 6:24�pm, "James Sweet" <jamessw...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> "Bob M." <n...@nospam.com> wrote in message
>
> news:0cSdnQ18vbThnyfanZ2dnUVZ_qainZ2d@bresnan.com...
>
> > "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" <donna....@sbcglobal.net> wrote
> > in messagenews:Hjhuj.8178$5K1.598@newssvr12.news.prodigy.net...
>
> >> 2. Even Superman couldn't would have a tough time removing mine ...
> >> �http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2033/2274085498_52c3b7d618.jpg?v=0
>
> >> Given it took a pipe wrench plus a huge cheater bar to remove the anode
> >> with the water heater removed and blocked on the ground ... and given
> >> that
>
> > On your new heater, take the anode out and wrap the threads once with
> > teflon tape or anti-seize compound. Much easier to remove the next time;
> > still provides protection too.
>
> Doesn't it still need to be grounded to the tank?
>
> I remember from boats that the sacrificial anode needs a good solid ground
> connection to the engine or transmission block.

yes it does,,,,,,,,,,,, no metal to metal contact no protection.....

geez i just replace the tank when it fails, it gets me a more efficent
unit every 10 years or so.

disturbing the anode and messing with the tank can generate a leak and
early tank replacement.........

== 9 of 16 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 5:00 pm
From: "Bob M."

"James Sweet" <jamessweet@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:atouj.5014$_T3.3895@trnddc07...
>
> "Bob M." <no@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:0cSdnQ18vbThnyfanZ2dnUVZ_qainZ2d@bresnan.com...
>> "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote
>> in message news:Hjhuj.8178$5K1.598@newssvr12.news.prodigy.net...
>>>
>>> 2. Even Superman couldn't would have a tough time removing mine ...
>>>

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2033/2274085498_52c3b7d618.jpg?v=0
>>>
>>> Given it took a pipe wrench plus a huge cheater bar to remove the anode
>>> with the water heater removed and blocked on the ground ... and given
>>> that
>>
>> On your new heater, take the anode out and wrap the threads once with
>> teflon tape or anti-seize compound. Much easier to remove the next time;
>> still provides protection too.
>
> Doesn't it still need to be grounded to the tank?
>
> I remember from boats that the sacrificial anode needs a good solid ground
> connection to the engine or transmission block.
>

Yes, and it is even with a layer of teflon tape. Can be easily tested with
a meter. If someone's really concerned, use anti-seize compound available
at auto parts places. It's used for spark plugs.

== 10 of 16 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 6:42 pm
From: "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"

On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 18:00:09 -0700, Bob M. wrote:
>> I remember from boats that the sacrificial anode needs a good solid ground
>> connection to the engine or transmission block.
> Yes, and it is even with a layer of teflon tape. Can be easily tested with
> a meter. If someone's really concerned, use anti-seize compound available
> at auto parts places. It's used for spark plugs.

I think "grounded" might not be the right word; but the anode must be
"connected" electrically to the tank as a requirement for its purpose.

I do remember in my research last week (oh so long ago) one article where
guys tested it with an ohmmeter and found that Teflon tape didn't hurt the
anodic action.

Here's one article that says distinctly to use Teflon on the anode:
http://www.inspectorsjournal.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2431

There it says:
"Remove the old anode rod with a 1 and 1/16 inch six-sided wrench or
socket. Do NOT use a 12-point wrench or socket or you will strip the head
of the anode. Get at least a 24-inch cheater bar. I keep a piece of 3/4
inch black iron pipe in the garage just for this purpose. Place the cheater
pipe over the socket handle. Have someone hold the water heater while you
slowly break the seal. Once broken, the anode removes quite easily."

It goes on to talk about the Teflon:
"Replace with a new anode rod. It is a 3/4-inch National Pipe Thread (NPT)
part. You may find one at any plumbing house or home store. Use pipe sealer
or Teflon tape to seal the threads. Snug it down tightly. Remember the
water heater builds up 150 PSI of pressure inside the tank."

BTW, where does the 150 psi come from?
I thought incoming water was about 80 psi.
Does just the fact we're heating the water raise the pressure?
Why? It's only 120 degrees (merely hot); not 212 degrees (boiling).

Does the pressure of the hot water rise to 120 psi while the pressure of
the cold water remains at 80 psi?

== 11 of 16 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 6:57 pm
From: Rick Blaine

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>BTW, where does the 150 psi come from?
>I thought incoming water was about 80 psi.
>Does just the fact we're heating the water raise the pressure?
>Why? It's only 120 degrees (merely hot); not 212 degrees (boiling).
>
>Does the pressure of the hot water rise to 120 psi while the pressure of
>the cold water remains at 80 psi?

Water expands when heated... Older systems allow that pressure to go back into
the supply line towards the street. newer systems have check valves.

== 12 of 16 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 5:59 pm
From: "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"

On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 15:31:12 -0800 (PST), hallerb@aol.com wrote:
>> Doesn't it still need to be grounded to the tank?
> yes it does,,,,,,,,,,,, no metal to metal contact no protection.....

In addition to the prior quoted article from Rheem which says to use Teflon
tape on the sacrificial anode, these guys on the plumbing forum ran an
experiment by wrapping 20 layers of Teflon tape around a threaded coupling
and then measuring the electrical resistance:
http://www.plbg.com/forum/read.php?1,285316

Here's what they say about it.
Donna

"I just put about 20 layers of teflon tape on each end of a nipple and
tightened one into female galv an one end into female copper. I then used a
multimeter to measure the resistance from one fitting to the other, through
the two teflon-tape joints. The resistance was less than a tenth of an ohm
(i.e. short circuit).

When I did the same across a dielectric union, I got about 2 mega-ohms
(i.e. there's just a tiny bit of conduction through the water, but the
metals aren't touching)

So the business about teflon tape being just as good as a dielectric union
is complete nonsense. The threads just cut through the teflon. It may work
in some cases, but it won't work in others and should not be recommended.

What's amazing to me is that there are all these "old plumbers' tales" out
there, so people are arguing about whether brass or teflon or stainless are
good or bad. Shouldn't this be scientifically determined? I realize that
corrosion happens over many years, but still, there must be ways of
measuring corrosion in the lab. It shouldn't be a matter of opinion or
first-person stories (anecdotal evidence)."

== 13 of 16 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 6:04 pm
From: "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"

On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 19:57:10 -0700, Rick Blaine wrote:
>>Does the pressure of the hot water rise to 120 psi while the pressure of
>>the cold water remains at 80 psi?
>
> Water expands when heated... Older systems allow that pressure to go back into
> the supply line towards the street. newer systems have check valves.

Hi Rick,

I was wondering why BOTH the hot water outlet and the cold-water inlet had
check valves built into the respective dialectric nipples provided in the
top of the new tank!

Are you saying the hot-water check valve prevents hot water from leaking up
the pipe for efficiency reasons; while the cold-water check valve prevents
hot water from leaking backward into the supply line?

If the pressure is 150 psi inside the tank, what is the pressure the hot
water is coming out? Is it at 150 psi while the cold water remains at 80
psi? I find that hard to believe, empirically.

Donna

== 14 of 16 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 7:45 pm
From: "Edwin Pawlowski"

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
message
>
> If the pressure is 150 psi inside the tank, what is the pressure the hot
> water is coming out? Is it at 150 psi while the cold water remains at 80
> psi? I find that hard to believe, empirically.
>
> Donna

It is whatever it is until you open a valve and it will be no more than the
cold water behind it. Static pressure is probably not much more than the
dynamic anyway given the low temperature. Water does not compress well so
it is very easy to relieve pressure so there will be no dramatic "poof" when
you open the tap.

If, however, the gas ran wild and made steam you could have much more
pressure and a violent release.

== 15 of 16 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 8:05 pm
From: "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"

On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 23:24:54 GMT, James Sweet wrote:
>> On your new heater, take the anode out and wrap the threads once with
>> teflon tape or anti-seize compound. Much easier to remove the next time;
>> still provides protection too.
> I remember from boats that the sacrificial anode needs a good solid ground
> connection to the engine or transmission block.

Hi James,

Many articles I find on replacing the sacrificial anode discuss the use of
Teflon tape to prevent leaks. Apparently the threads cut right through the
tape to make plenty of metal to metal contact in the steel tank.

For example, "This Old House"
http://www.thisoldhouse.com/toh/video/0,,20047047,00.html
shows a video of a destroyed sacrificial anode (just like mine) and a
passivated (covered in Calcium deposits) sacrificial anode. They replaced
it with both a three-foot-eight-inch straight anode and a three-link
sausage-shaped collapsible anode (for tight spaces). Both had Teflon tape
in the threads!

In addition, this article was written by a housing specialist and was
reviewed by three PH.D.s and the EPA - and it clearly says to use Teflon
tape on the sacrificial WH anode for replacement:
http://www.fcs.uga.edu/ext/pubs/hace/HACE-E-60-05.pdf
They say:
"Wrap the threads of the new rod in Teflon tape."

This article by John Wood Heaters also says to use Teflon tape:
http://www.johnwoodwaterheaters.com/support/techsupport.html
They say:
"Wrap threads of the anode with plumber¢s tape or use pipe dope approved
for use with potable water, and install the (new) anode into tank and
tighten."

This very informative series of articles are some of the best I've seen
explaining sacrificial anodes for water heaters and other topics.
http://216.250.104.54/default.cfm?PageId=42306
It covers lots of interesting topics, including how to bend anodes to fit
them in tight spaces but unfortunately, it doesn't cover the Teflon issue.

== 16 of 16 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 8:23 pm
From: "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"

How can it be that replacing a drain valve in a full tank leaks not water?

I still feel badly that I didn't replace the plastic drain valve with the
brass ball valve because I was afraid the plastic was not removable (that's
what Sears salespeople said anyway, instilling FUD in my mind).

I was subsequently reading how to replace the plastic drain valve after the
fact and they all seem to say it won't leak if I do so with a full tank.

Huh?

How can removing the drain valve at the bottom of a full water heater not
leak 50 gallons of water?

I already saw, first hand, what happens when that drain valve

http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2274079114/
snaps off

http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2273262545/
spewing 40 gallons of hot water in my garage
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2273262535/

Can someone clarify this statement from, say:
http://216.250.104.54/default.cfm?PageId=41781 (see excerpt below).

Donna

Maintenance Tip #21 Drain valves
Drain valves usually come when you buy them from a manufacturer. They used
to be brass. You should install a 3/4 ball valve on your water heater.
The plastic ones are prone to leaking. To install a brass ball valve, turn
the gas or electricity off and open a hot tap inside the house. If you
have a cone-shaped valve, unscrew it counterclockwise six turns or so and
pull it out at the same time. Now turn it clockwise while continuing to
pull and it will come out. Wrap Teflon on the nipple that is exposed on
the water heater. Attach the ball valve now. If you have a plastic drain
valve that looks like a hose bib, unscrew it by turning the entire valve
itself.
A little water may come out while you're installing a new valve, but not
much at all. Wear gloves to avoid getting scalded.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Buying or Selling
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/bdcce8da027c027a?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 1:15 pm
From: The Vendor

Hello,

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sell or find what they're looking for, so I thought you might want to
check it out.

www.theautovendor.com

I am excited to be a part of this group.

Thanks,
Joel

==============================================================================
TOPIC: How many therms (natural gas) do you use per day (per month)?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/99d004d38152f87d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 1:32 pm
From: "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"

Wikipedia isn't bad on the use of "therms":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_heater

For measurement units, it says:
Natural gas in the U.S. is measured in CCF (100 cubic feet), which is
converted to a standardized heat content unit called the therm, equal to
100,000 British thermal units. A BTU is the energy required to raise one
pound of water by one degree Fahrenheit. A U.S. gallon of water weighs 8.3
pounds. So, to raise a 40-gallon tank of 55 °F water up to 105 °F would
require 40 x 8.3 x (105 − 55) / 100,000 BTU, or approximately 0.17 CCF, at
100% efficiency. A 40,000 BTU (per hour) heater would take 25 minutes to do
this, at 100% efficiency. At $1 per therm, the cost of the gas would be
about 17 cents.

As for usage ... it goes on to say:
Water enters residences in the US at about 10 °C (50 °F) (varies with
latitude and season). Adults generally prefer shower temperatures of 40–49
°C (105–120 °F), requiring the water temperature to be raised about 30 °C
(55 °F) or more, if the hot water is later mixed with cold water. The
Uniform Plumbing Code reference shower flow rate is 2.5 gpm (gallons per
minute); sink and dishwasher usages range from 1–3 gpm.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: plastic knives
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/07c751bd8a07b476?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 2:02 pm
From: Al Bundy

On Feb 17, 4:55 pm, Anthony Matonak
<anthony...@nothing.like.socal.rr.com> wrote:
> b...@coolgroups.com wrote:
> > Why can't I buy a package of plastic knives without spoons and forks
> > in it?
>
> Is this a riddle? Something like "What is in my pocket?" or
> "What color is my underwear?"
>
> How about...
> Because you haven't looked?
> Because you have no money to buy anything?
> Because there are no grocery stores under bridges?
>
> I see knives, forks, spoons and sporks in unmixed packages
> all the time in stores like Target, Smart & Final and most
> every grocery store. They're even available on-line. If you
> can't find them, it's not because they aren't there.
>
> Anthony

By now most have probably figured out that the OP is in fact a troll
who specializes in posing silly questions to various groups.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Cheap wholesale air max sneakers: max 87,max 90,max95,max97,max2003,max
180,max 360, max TN,max ltd,max Nz,air max for women and children.
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/b8f0581afe172c02?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Videos - Musicnfun.com
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/02072761696b8c26?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 2:16 pm
From: "kenny.mcgrill@googlemail.com"

Videos - Musicnfun.com

www.musicnfun.com

Make New Friends at www.lonelyluv.com

==============================================================================
TOPIC: ? for landlords
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/648f8a4eebe4a886?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 3:32 pm
From: "Joe"

>>> how do you vet your tenants?
>>
>> www.freecreditreport.com - Ask for a copy of this report with their
>> application.
>>
>> It won't help with the human side, but with the money side, it might.
>
> But having apartments I can say the human side is 95% of the equation.

Agreed... My biggest problem tenant was a people issue... On SO many
levels!
--

Joe in Northern, NJ - V#8013-R

Currently Riding The "Mother Ship"
http://yunx.com/valk.htm

Ride a motorcycle in or near NJ?
http://tinyurl.com/hmzj
http://tinyurl.com/5apkg

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 7:18 pm
From: Scott in SoCal

On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 16:54:17 GMT, George Grapman
<sfgeorge@paccbell.net> wrote:

>barbie gee wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Mon, 18 Feb 2008, AllEmailDeletedImmediately wrote:
>>
>>> how do you vet your tenants?
>>
>> Use a standard application form for all tenants. Screen further with a
>> credit check and work verification and 2 previous landlords, done by a
>> tenant screening agency. Prospective tenant(s) pay $30 screening fee
>> upfront. Call the 2 landlords yourself, as well.
>>
> An unscrupulous landlord could take many applications and simply
>pocket the fees. I would tell the landlord that fees are part of their
>cost of doing business (would you pay a bank to run a check when you
>apply for a credit card?) or, at the very least, I would offer a
>separate check made out to the reporting.

Happy hunting!

==============================================================================
TOPIC: cold water detergent
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/28e84033bdbeafba?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 6:02 pm
From: kristy@kristy.id.au

On Feb 19, 5:30 am, "Rod Speed" <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote:
> Evelyn C. Leeper <elee...@optonline.net> wrote:
> > BillGill wrote:
> >> Marsha wrote:
> >>> Anyone have a recommendation?
> >> I just use whatever detergent I buy. Usually something with no
> >> perfumes.
> > Same here. It seems to me that most tests of detergents haven't shown
> > that you need a special one for cold water.
> Depends on what you wash. I have hordes of dark blue T shirts, I dont wear
> anything else, and they do show the effect of less than perfect solubility in
> cold water in some washing machines. You get a sort of scum thats very
> visible on just the T shirts and nothing else that you can wipe off with your
> fingers when you hand the T shirts on the line but its better not to have to.

I use soap nuts. Have no clue what I am on about? You can read about
them at http://www.greenandnutty.com.au/?q=node/2 or, of course,
Google is your friend and will happily provide pages of reading on
them. :)

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Sewing Machines: Making A Comeback?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/04891ec8941a20e8?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 7:55 pm
From: gheston@hiwaay.net (Gary Heston)

In article <l4ojr394v9cu3ek530ugrhi7ekg0to1lei@4ax.com>,
<hchickpea@hotmail.com> wrote:
>On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 11:31:33 -0800, Anthony Matonak
><anthonym40@nothing.like.socal.rr.com> wrote:

>>Cindy Hamilton wrote:
>>> Only my time between 8 and 5 Monday through Friday has a dollar value.
>>> If I spend Saturday making clothes, the time can't be considered
>>> wasted.

>>Your time is worth whatever someone will pay you for it. Just because
>>you aren't working Saturday for money doesn't mean you can't. Lots
>>of folks work two or more jobs. The time could also be spent improving
>>your job skills or advancing your education which could be turned into
>>increasing your wages.

>Think of all that time wasted on vacations, going out to eat,
>sleeping, and other non-productive activities. :-)

...posting to misc.consumers.frugal-living...

Gary

--
Gary Heston gheston@hiwaay.net

http://www.thebreastcancersite.com/

We live in amazing times, when one person can invent both the Internet
and global warming, then get awarded a "peace prize".

==============================================================================

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Google Groups: http://groups.google.com?hl=en

25 new messages in 8 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

* www.shopbb.com from china Wholesale Footwear, Apparel,Bag,NFL Jersey,,mobile
phones,shop.Best Service,Best Pruce,Best Items - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/9bea5814f23282ac?hl=en
* ? for landlords - 2 messages, 2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/648f8a4eebe4a886?hl=en
* Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater - 11 messages,
5 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/e565eaf98e0e70b6?hl=en
* when does the tripling of grain prices "hit the fan"? - 4 messages, 2
authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/b7ba2eeecb9059a7?hl=en
* Sewing Machines: Making A Comeback? - 3 messages, 3 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/04891ec8941a20e8?hl=en
* how to make money with internet?her the answer - 2 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/94f22451aee348f9?hl=en
* cold water detergent - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/28e84033bdbeafba?hl=en
* How many therms (natural gas) do you use per day (per month)? - 1 messages,
1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/99d004d38152f87d?hl=en

==============================================================================
TOPIC: www.shopbb.com from china Wholesale Footwear, Apparel,Bag,NFL Jersey,,
mobile phones,shop.Best Service,Best Pruce,Best Items
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/9bea5814f23282ac?hl=en
==============================================================================

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== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 9:43 am
From: barbie gee

On Mon, 18 Feb 2008, George Grapman wrote:

> barbie gee wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Mon, 18 Feb 2008, AllEmailDeletedImmediately wrote:
>>
>>> how do you vet your tenants?
>>
>> Use a standard application form for all tenants. Screen further with a
>> credit check and work verification and 2 previous landlords, done by a
>> tenant screening agency. Prospective tenant(s) pay $30 screening fee
>> upfront. Call the 2 landlords yourself, as well.
>>
> An unscrupulous landlord could take many applications and simply pocket the
> fees. I would tell the landlord that fees are part of their cost of doing
> business (would you pay a bank to run a check when you apply for a credit
> card?) or, at the very least, I would offer a separate check made out to the
> reporting.

Making out a check to the reporting company would be just fine.
Generally, though, I don't take an application or bother with a credit
check until the initial interviews with a prospective tenant who is
seriously interested in taking the apartment. They must have satisfied me
that they are gainfully employed and understand the lease terms and
building rules clearly. It's a mutual screening; if they don't like the
building rules and lease terms, they don't have to apply.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 9:44 am
From: George Grapman

barbie gee wrote:
>
>
> On Mon, 18 Feb 2008, George Grapman wrote:
>
>> barbie gee wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, 18 Feb 2008, AllEmailDeletedImmediately wrote:
>>>
>>>> how do you vet your tenants?
>>>
>>> Use a standard application form for all tenants. Screen further with
>>> a credit check and work verification and 2 previous landlords, done
>>> by a tenant screening agency. Prospective tenant(s) pay $30
>>> screening fee upfront. Call the 2 landlords yourself, as well.
>>>
>> An unscrupulous landlord could take many applications and simply
>> pocket the fees. I would tell the landlord that fees are part of their
>> cost of doing business (would you pay a bank to run a check when you
>> apply for a credit card?) or, at the very least, I would offer a
>> separate check made out to the reporting.
>
> Making out a check to the reporting company would be just fine.
> Generally, though, I don't take an application or bother with a credit
> check until the initial interviews with a prospective tenant who is
> seriously interested in taking the apartment. They must have satisfied
> me that they are gainfully employed and understand the lease terms and
> building rules clearly. It's a mutual screening; if they don't like the
> building rules and lease terms, they don't have to apply.
>

A rental agent always walked outside with the applicant after showing
them the place so he could look at their car. No, he did not care about
the make.model or condition, he simply looked at the expiration date on
the tags.If they expired 10 months ago it could indicate a problem such
as inability to re-register because they had no insurance or too many
unpaid parking tickets.

== 1 of 11 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 8:42 am
From: "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"

On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 09:18:04 -0800 (PST), N8N wrote:
> If you try to remove it next year, you should be able to do it

Good point. We should remove the anode every year so that it *can* be
removed when it comes time to replace it with a similarly sized one.

One thing we still need to do is attach the drainage pipe from the
Temperature & Pressure valve to near the floor in case of an overflow.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2274211119/

Is the drain pipe mandatory (can we just leave it off)?

It seems to me a drain pipe *should* be mandatory because you don't want
hot water spewing forth at eye level. However, due to configuration
changes, even with the taller tank, the old drainage tube is too long and
too close to the tank so we can't just screw the old one in. We have to
modify it somehow to make it shorter and move it away from the wood base.

QUESTION:
How many inches ABOVE the garage floor should it end?
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2030/2273228265_01c9df0f48_m.jpg

If we can end ABOVE the 18 inch wooden platform, that would be easier.
If we have to end six or so inches above the garage cement floor, that
would necessitate an elbow to get past the wooden base but it seems a
horizontal line can clog causing a safety hazard.

I googled but did not find any specs as to HOW MANY INCHES above either the
floor or better yet, the wooden platform, that a drain pipe must terminate.

Can someone recommend a solution?

Thanks
Donna

== 2 of 11 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 9:47 am
From: "James Sweet"

>
> Looking at the nicely packaged yellow gas lines, we asked EVERYONE in the
> stores if we should replace and they all (multiple stores) said nobody
> replaces the gas line. They said leave it so we don't introduce a leak.
>
> So, purely for safety reasons, we didn't replace the gas line (using the
> store logic).
>
>

You don't replace the black iron gas line, but you want to replace the
stainless flex whenever you replace the appliance.

== 3 of 11 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 9:49 am
From: "James Sweet"

>
> Given how corroded the steel pipes were (I can't believe my kids drank
> water from those pipes!), maybe we'll try to replace all our plumbing when
> the weather warms up (Bill is on the roof right now doing the shingles
> which blew off in the last storm).
>
> It seems like an easy job for the piping under the crawl space.
>
> But it seems difficult for the piping hidden in the wall.
> (Do we have to rip the walls apart?)
>
> And the pipes under the driveway to the main water meter.
> (Do we have to break open the driveway?)
>
> Is replacing the galvanized pipes with copper a do-it-yourself job Billa
> nd
> I can do together?
>

Don't forget that all that crud in the pipes was in the water to begin with,
it's gross looking, but not harmful.

Replacing the pipes is not difficult in itself, however depending on the
design and layout of the house it can be a major project to get to all the
pipes. I hate crawling around in crawl spaces, and you'll almost certainly
have to cut open some walls. If you have a full basement it will be
considerably easier.

== 4 of 11 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 8:55 am
From: "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"

On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 12:26:44 -0500, Meat Plow wrote:
> I can't believe this thread is still going after what three weeks?

Hi Meat Plow,

There are more questions now, after having done the job, than there were in
the beginning, even though I read a dozen how to's, I posted my
step-by-step guide, I read a half-dozen PDFs on specifications, etc.

It seems all the required information is not in any one place (yet).

For example, unanswered questions which remain are:

Q1: Can we terminate the drain pipe above the wooden base (easier) or must
we terminate (how many) inches above the cement floor (necessitating a
short elbowed horizontal run)?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2274211119/

Q2: Is it a code requirement to replace the incoming yellow gas lines?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2273276741/

Q3: Since the old drain valve (predictably) snapped in half (causing most
of the installation problems we saw),

http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2273262535/
and since Sears personnel said the drain valve can not be removed, do you
really remove and replace the new drain valve with a brass one (we opted
not because the store said it was unremovable)?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2273262545/

Q5: How *tight* should the earthquake straps be (the originals were loose)?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2273250269/

Q6: How much space should be left between the walls and the heater?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2275029488/

Q7: Must we use a sheet-metal screw or is hand tight (it's very tight) good
enough for the vent flue?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2274085488/

Donna

== 5 of 11 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 10:10 am
From: "Edwin Pawlowski"

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
message
> Looking at the nicely packaged yellow gas lines, we asked EVERYONE in the
> stores if we should replace and they all (multiple stores) said nobody
> replaces the gas line. They said leave it so we don't introduce a leak.

The problem with asking at the store is the average worker there knows very
little. Flex lines used to be against code in some places, then there were
required for earthquake prone locations. A call to the gas inspector will
clarify what you need. Water heaters are better than dryers, but years of
constant flex and vibration can cause cracks in the joiunts of flex lines.

== 6 of 11 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 10:12 am
From: "Edwin Pawlowski"

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
message

>
> KEY QUESTION: Would a plumber have done it differently? How?
>

Plumber would have used some copper fittings and soldered the joints. He
can get exactly what is needed that way.

== 7 of 11 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 10:19 am
From: "Edwin Pawlowski"

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
message
>
> It seems like an easy job for the piping under the crawl space.
>
> But it seems difficult for the piping hidden in the wall.
> (Do we have to rip the walls apart?)
>
> And the pipes under the driveway to the main water meter.
> (Do we have to break open the driveway?)
>
> Is replacing the galvanized pipes with copper a do-it-yourself job Billa
> nd
> I can do together?
>
> Donna

The problem with copper is getting it trough wall. Pex, OTOH, is much
easier to get through and with the proper tools, easier to work with.

There are ways of getting under the driveway, but you'd have to either rent
the equipment or call a plumber for that portion. Check what was used for
the main. Many years ago (mostly in the 1940's) lead pipe was common.

== 8 of 11 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 10:55 am
From: N8N

On Feb 18, 11:55 am, "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"
<donna....@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 12:26:44 -0500, Meat Plow wrote:
> > I can't believe this thread is still going after what three weeks?
>
> Hi Meat Plow,
>
> There are more questions now, after having done the job, than there were in
> the beginning, even though I read a dozen how to's, I posted my
> step-by-step guide, I read a half-dozen PDFs on specifications, etc.
>
> It seems all the required information is not in any one place (yet).
>
> For example, unanswered questions which remain are:
>
> Q1: Can we terminate the drain pipe above the wooden base (easier) or must
> we terminate (how many) inches above the cement floor (necessitating a
> short elbowed horizontal run)?http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2274211119/

I think it needs to be *at least* 6 inches above the floor, you don't
want it to be too high though in case you are in the room when it goes
off. I assume you have a floor drain in this room?

>
> Q2: Is it a code requirement to replace the incoming yellow gas lines?http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2273276741/

I believe every WH manufacturer recommends replacing the flex line if
the heater is replaced (that is if a flex line is used.)

> Q3: Since the old drain valve (predictably) snapped in half (causing most
> of the installation problems we saw),http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2273262535/
> and since Sears personnel said the drain valve can not be removed, do you
> really remove and replace the new drain valve with a brass one (we opted
> not because the store said it was unremovable)?http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2273262545/

I would. Can you at least look and see if the valve looks like it is
a standard 3/4" pipe thread? If so I'd replace it. Like I mentioned
earlier, I just used a 3/4" dielectric nipple, a 3/4" NPT ball valve,
a 3/4" male NPT to male garden hose adapter, and a brass garden hose
cap to make my own drain valves (I actually have three water heaters
on my property, two in the house and one in the garage...)

I have yet to see a drain valve for a water heater that didn't screw
into the tank with a 3/4" pipe thread. I imagine the Sears rep just
told you it wasn't replaceable to keep you from messing with it.

> Q5: How *tight* should the earthquake straps be (the originals were loose)?http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2273250269/

don't know, they apparently aren't required anywhere I've lived.

>
> Q6: How much space should be left between the walls and the heater?http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2275029488/

Your installation instructions should have that info.

> Q7: Must we use a sheet-metal screw or is hand tight (it's very tight) good
> enough for the vent flue?http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2274085488/

I'd screw it together, at least two screws per joint. Before you do
that though, check with a match to make sure it's drafting properly -
light a match and hold it in the gap between the top of the water
heater and the flue vent while the heater is burning. The flame
should go straight up or slightly in towards the center of the vent -
NEVER away from the center of the vent. If it does it is backdrafting
and whatever condition is causing that needs to be corrected.

good luck

nate

== 9 of 11 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 11:40 am
From: "Stormin Mormon"

I'd guess if you remove and inspect annually, that the threads don't lock
up.

Why did you want to remove the anode of the old heater? Just curious?

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus

www.lds.org
.

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
message news:Hjhuj.8178$5K1.598@newssvr12.news.prodigy.net...

> I just replaced the anodes ... on two ancient (80's) water heaters

2. Even Superman couldn't would have a tough time removing mine ...

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2033/2274085498_52c3b7d618.jpg?v=0

Can anyone really expect to remove the anode when it needs inspection?
Why don't they provide TWO HOLES so you can add a second anode when needed?

== 10 of 11 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 11:42 am
From: "Stormin Mormon"

I've seen flex line for gas, and flex braided for water. Not sure it's
legal. But it sure is a lot easier than making the correct shapes of rigid
pipe nipples.

Yes, that galvanized pip should be replaced.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus

www.lds.org
.

"Edwin Pawlowski" <esp@snet.net> wrote in message
news:%vhuj.8191$5K1.1450@newssvr12.news.prodigy.net...

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
message
>
> Let's learn from this half-day job.
> Would this hot water heater R&R pass your inspection?
> Why or why not?
>
> Donna & Bill

I appears that you re-used the flex gas line. That should be replaced with
any new installation and would be a code violation in most, if not all,
places.

From the photo, it looks as though you used on SS line and one copper line.
If so, that is a sure sign of a hack job. Meantime, start thinking about
replacing all of that galvanized pip with either copper or pex.

== 11 of 11 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 11:03 am
From: "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"

On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 10:55:41 -0800 (PST), N8N wrote:
> I think it needs to be *at least* 6 inches above the floor, you don't
> want it to be too high though in case you are in the room when it goes
> off. I assume you have a floor drain in this room?

Hi Nate,
It's a garage that drains down the driveway.

This reference also says "at least" six inches off the floor.
http://www.high-performance-hvac.com/heating/hot-water-heaters/hot-water-heater-maintenance-tips.html

This one says "within" six inches of the floor:
http://www.friendlyplumber.com/plumbing101/hot_water_heater.html

I'm going to tell Bill to decide to put it at the 18 inch mark above the
elevated step; otherwise it would need a horizontal length which would be
bad.

Thanks,
Donna

==============================================================================
TOPIC: when does the tripling of grain prices "hit the fan"?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/b7ba2eeecb9059a7?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 9:58 am
From: larry

catalpa wrote:

> "rick++" <rick303@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:9eea2763-200d-4e2b-81e6-1ebb50558a37@e60g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>
>>Wheat and corn prices have quadrupled in the past two years
>>due to ethanol and international grain demand.
>>I read a sad Denver news story about hobby horse owners
>>having to put down their animals because monthly feed
>>costs have trebled. They could board a horse at $500 a
>>month but not $1500.
>>I havent seen this passed through bakeries like the 1979-1980
>>jump, but I guess its coming.
>
>
> Your data is wrong. Corn had doubled going from $2.50 to $5.00 and wheat has
> more than tripled going from $3.10 to $10.50. The higher prices will cause
> record levels of planting in 2008.
>
>
Corn prices are now dropping, gumint subsidies for the
conversion plants skewed the real cost of the new fuel.
Ironically, transportation (fuel) costs from field to plant
to user have shuttered some plants.

Localized solar (direct heat/voltaic/bio growth/wind)
storage and use (thermal mass/chemical/biomass) are much
more efficient than centralized energy. But the
government/politics/money is the beneficiary and saviour of
centralized.

-- larry / dallas

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 11:23 am
From: "Rod Speed"

larry <foo@foobar.com> wrote
> Don Klipstein wrote
>> Don Klipstein wrote

>>> Wheat recently hit a high of $10.93 per bushel for March delivery:

>>> http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080208/usda_wheat_commodities_wrap.html?.v=1

>>> A bushel of weight is 60 pounds of wheat.

>>> http://www.cyberspaceag.com/kansascrops/whatsinabushel.htm

>>> So wheat costs about 18 cents per pound. The wheat in a $2-plus 22-ounce loaf of bread costs about 25 cents at the
>>> latest high prices of wheat.

>> Make that less than 25 cents - bread is roughly half water, much of it added.

> Using/confusing food stock for fuel is never a good idea.

Wrong. Its an excellent way of using fast food cooking oil etc.

> The history of the Easter Islands is a good example.

Nope, we arent a tiny island.

> You don't cut down all the trees, when your existence depends on them.

Our existence doesnt depend on anything like that.

There isnt even a shortage of grain.

> There is a similar Cree Indian saying.

Pity the world moved on just a tad since their time.

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 11:24 am
From: "Rod Speed"

catalpa <catalpa@entertab.org> wrote
> rick++ <rick303@hotmail.com> wrote

>> Wheat and corn prices have quadrupled in the past two years
>> due to ethanol and international grain demand.
>> I read a sad Denver news story about hobby horse owners
>> having to put down their animals because monthly feed
>> costs have trebled. They could board a horse at $500 a
>> month but not $1500.

>> I havent seen this passed through bakeries like the 1979-1980
>> jump, but I guess its coming.

> Your data is wrong. Corn had doubled going from $2.50 to $5.00 and wheat has more than tripled going from $3.10 to
> $10.50.

And much of the increase has been due to drought, not ethanol production.

> The higher prices will cause record levels of planting in 2008.

And the weather will determine the yield, as always.

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 11:27 am
From: "Rod Speed"

larry <foo@foobar.com> wrote:
> catalpa wrote:
>
>> "rick++" <rick303@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:9eea2763-200d-4e2b-81e6-1ebb50558a37@e60g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>> Wheat and corn prices have quadrupled in the past two years
>>> due to ethanol and international grain demand.
>>> I read a sad Denver news story about hobby horse owners
>>> having to put down their animals because monthly feed
>>> costs have trebled. They could board a horse at $500 a
>>> month but not $1500.
>>> I havent seen this passed through bakeries like the 1979-1980
>>> jump, but I guess its coming.
>>
>>
>> Your data is wrong. Corn had doubled going from $2.50 to $5.00 and
>> wheat has more than tripled going from $3.10 to $10.50. The higher
>> prices will cause record levels of planting in 2008.
>>
>>
> Corn prices are now dropping, gumint subsidies for the
> conversion plants skewed the real cost of the new fuel.
> Ironically, transportation (fuel) costs from field to plant
> to user have shuttered some plants.

> Localized solar (direct heat/voltaic/bio growth/wind)
> storage and use (thermal mass/chemical/biomass) are much more efficient than centralized energy.

But arent generally much good as a transport fuel.

> But the government/politics/money is the beneficiary and saviour of centralized.

Its a hell of a lot more viable than localised for electricity etc.

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 10:13 am
From: Cindy Hamilton

On Feb 16, 6:50 am, Al Bundy <MSfort...@mcpmail.com> wrote:

> If your time is worth anything, sewing clothes is too big a waste of
> it.
> The big savings is in fixing and altering clothes, which can be done
> quickly and with a low end machine

Only my time between 8 and 5 Monday through Friday has a dollar value.
If I spend Saturday making clothes, the time can't be considered
wasted.

Cindy Hamilton

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 11:31 am
From: Anthony Matonak

Cindy Hamilton wrote:
> Only my time between 8 and 5 Monday through Friday has a dollar value.
> If I spend Saturday making clothes, the time can't be considered
> wasted.

Your time is worth whatever someone will pay you for it. Just because
you aren't working Saturday for money doesn't mean you can't. Lots
of folks work two or more jobs. The time could also be spent improving
your job skills or advancing your education which could be turned into
increasing your wages.

Anthony

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 11:47 am
From: hchickpea@hotmail.com

On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 11:31:33 -0800, Anthony Matonak
<anthonym40@nothing.like.socal.rr.com> wrote:

>Cindy Hamilton wrote:
>> Only my time between 8 and 5 Monday through Friday has a dollar value.
>> If I spend Saturday making clothes, the time can't be considered
>> wasted.
>
>Your time is worth whatever someone will pay you for it. Just because
>you aren't working Saturday for money doesn't mean you can't. Lots
>of folks work two or more jobs. The time could also be spent improving
>your job skills or advancing your education which could be turned into
>increasing your wages.
>
>Anthony

Think of all that time wasted on vacations, going out to eat,
sleeping, and other non-productive activities. :-)

==============================================================================
TOPIC: how to make money with internet?her the answer
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/94f22451aee348f9?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 11:01 am
From: jaldou

http://glycoblug.webs.com/makemoneywithadsense.htm

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 11:01 am
From: jaldou

http://glycoblug.webs.com/makemoneywithadsense.htm

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 11:30 am
From: "Rod Speed"

Evelyn C. Leeper <eleeper@optonline.net> wrote:
> BillGill wrote:
>> Marsha wrote:
>>> Anyone have a recommendation?
>>>
>>> Marsha/Ohio
>>>
>> I just use whatever detergent I buy. Usually something with no
>> perfumes.
>
> Same here. It seems to me that most tests of detergents haven't shown
> that you need a special one for cold water.

Depends on what you wash. I have hordes of dark blue T shirts, I dont wear
anything else, and they do show the effect of less than perfect solubility in
cold water in some washing machines. You get a sort of scum thats very
visible on just the T shirts and nothing else that you can wipe off with your
fingers when you hand the T shirts on the line but its better not to have to.

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 11:39 am
From: Anthony Matonak

Bill Ghrist wrote:
> Anthony Matonak wrote:
>> I'm only one person but I average about 5 therms a month.
>> In the winter it's slightly more.
>
> Last year we used a total of 71.5 MCF (734 therms at 10.27 therm/MCF).
> That's an average of 61.2 therms/month. Highest monthly usage was 17.4
> MCF (178.7 therms) for 1/23/2007~2/22/2007 for which the average
> temperature was 22 deg. F. Most recent monthly usage (33 days:
> 12/21/2007~1/24/2008) was 13.3 MCF (136.6 therms) with an average
> temperature of 32 deg. F. In the summer months the usage was 1.2 MCF
> (12.3 therms) per month.

I live in Los Angeles, California and I can't recall the last time I
needed to fire up the heater. This winter has been fairly warm with
an average of around 60F. I'm hardly home enough to cook even if I
did have the inclination and I don't have any teenagers that take
incredibly long showers. This probably explains the low gas use. :)

This just shows how useless it is to ask the whole world how much
gas they use. Someone in Fargo is going to need a little more heating
than someone in Key West. :)

Anthony

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Frugal Living

Blog Archive

Monday, February 18, 2008

25 new messages in 9 topics - digest

25 new messages in 8 topics - digest