Frugal Living: 25 new messages in 12 topics

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/e565eaf98e0e70b6?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 7 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 11:51 pm
From: "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"

On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 23:25:04 GMT, James Sweet wrote:
> Take extra care to get the vent right, a gas leak you'll smell, a
> water leak you'll see, but an exhaust leak will just kill you.

Hi everyone,

Please take a look at the photos uploaded earlier today.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/

Let's learn from this half-day effort replacing the water heater.
We had to make a whole bunch of compromises we had not planned on!
Would our final work pass your inspection?
Why or why not (let's learn from this)?

By the way, just as you guys predicted:
- The drain valve snapped off while the tank was full of hot water
- The plumbing was corroded and broke in multiple places
- The water heater (still full of hot water) tipped over on us
- The anode had dissolved away to the bare steel rod
- The galvanized plumbing was almost completely clogged with rust
- The plumbing retrofit for the much larger heater was difficult
- The dialectric fittings and check valves were useless
etc.

And, a few things you guys didn't predict:
- We found an ancient machete hidden behind the water heater!
- Trying to save the box to put the old heater in isn't worth it
- The cold water leaked due to thread corrosion even tightly screwed on
- Hot water leaked back into the heater when the cold water was shut
- The overflow pipe wasn't installed yet due to a question for you
- We loosened sandy sediment which clogged our showerheads
etc.

Now that we're done, we have MORE QUESTIONS to ask (and hopefully we can
all get the answers together).

Take a look at the photos uploaded earlier today:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/

Let's learn from this half-day job.
Would this hot water heater R&R pass your inspection?
Why or why not?

Donna & Bill

== 2 of 7 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 5:29 am
From: N8N

On Feb 17, 8:54 pm, "hall...@aol.com" <hall...@aol.com> wrote:
> On Feb 17, 7:36�pm, clams_casino <PeterGrif...@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator wrote:
>
> > >On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 11:04:53 -0500, clams_casino wrote:
> > >On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 11:04:53 -0500, clams_casino wrote:
>
> > >>Do get it right. � A family recently died of carbon monoxide poisoning
>
> > >Hi clams,
>
> > >We *are* doing it right. That's why I'm here in the first place. To get it
> > >right. I do appreciate the help. From everyone. And, I'll give back by
> > >posting the tutorial for others like us to follow.
>
> > >In fact, we feel we're possibly doing it *better* than a plumber might, at
> > >least in terms of raw material. It seems to us (unsubstantiated opinion)
> > >that a plumber might tend to maximize his *time* and not necessarily the
> > >quality of the materials - unless specifically asked to by the homeowner
> > >(who must correspondingly be willing to pay for the extra parts cost and
> > >labor).
>
> > >Bill is in his final shower as we speak. The gas is off.
>
> > >He can sing in that steaming hot shower for as long as he likes and, for
> > >once, I won't be on his back about wasting the hot water!
>
> > >Donna
>
> > This has been a very informative thread. � I didn't appreciate that our
> > 15-year old water heater (61 gallon - State / 0.55 ER) is likely on
> > borrowed time. � The first one in our home was replaced after just 8
> > years (previous owner). � As someone pointed out, now is probably a good
> > time to start researching a replacement.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> i take a different view, after having one start leaking with house
> guests coming right before christmas.
>
> i replace mine at the time of my choosing, on my schedule.
>
> peace of mind and lack of hassles plus no worry about water leak
> damage, and can shop around for best deal, and get better efficency
> from new tank and i went larger with a high output tank.
>
> do you wait for everything you own to totally quit before replacing?

Generally, yes.

>
> hot water tanks are low cost.
>
> my current one is 7 years old. its on borrowed time

I guess I take a different tack; probably has to do with my upbringing
(whole family is from rural PA, very, um, frugal...) I figure
inspecting the anode regularly will tell me what I need to know about
the tank condition and I can make an informed decision from there.

You may recall from my previous posts that I just replaced the anodes
back in November on two ancient (80's) water heaters in my basement;
it turns out that they were both still in good shape despite the solar
one appearing to be near failure - the outside shell is very rusty and
looking to be in poor condition but the anode was still intact enough
that it appears it was never unprotected on the inside. Also I had
thought that the solar one was leaking intermittently but it now
appears that that was due to dry rotted condensate drain lines in the
furnace and the slope of the floor (solar HWH is located near a low
spot) repairing the furnace drain seems to have fixed the issue.

Basically, when you live in an area like I do where the housing costs
are so high, you can't afford to simply replace stuff on a schedule,
you replace it when it really needs to be replaced. I'll continue
flushing and inspecting the anode; when this anode is gone (if I'm
still living in the same place) then maybe I'll consider replacing the
tank, as it'll be 30-40 years old by then :) (and hopefully I'll be
making enough money by then that the mortgage won't be eating up half
my take-home every month)

Yes, I "shop" for light fixtures and other supplies in the "free"
section of Craigslist as well, and just bought a couple paneled doors
for $12 each from the home salvage place up in Edmonton.

I'd like to think that when it does come time for me to move out of
this house, despite the fact that I'm replacing very little, that the
new owners will still find far fewer problems than I did upon moving
in simply because I do address problems as they arise, and I do
everything I can myself so I know it's done right.

nate

(officially licensed and certified cheap b*****d)

== 3 of 7 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 6:28 am
From: N8N

On Feb 18, 2:51 am, "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"
<donna....@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 23:25:04 GMT, James Sweet wrote:
> > Take extra care to get the vent right, a gas leak you'll smell, a
> > water leak you'll see, but an exhaust leak will just kill you.
>
> Hi everyone,
>
> Please take a look at the photos uploaded earlier today.http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/
>
> Let's learn from this half-day effort replacing the water heater.
> We had to make a whole bunch of compromises we had not planned on!
> Would our final work pass your inspection?
> Why or why not (let's learn from this)?
>
> By the way, just as you guys predicted:
> - The drain valve snapped off while the tank was full of hot water
> - The plumbing was corroded and broke in multiple places
> - The water heater (still full of hot water) tipped over on us
> - The anode had dissolved away to the bare steel rod
> - The galvanized plumbing was almost completely clogged with rust
> - The plumbing retrofit for the much larger heater was difficult
> - The dialectric fittings and check valves were useless
> etc.
>
> And, a few things you guys didn't predict:
> - We found an ancient machete hidden behind the water heater!
> - Trying to save the box to put the old heater in isn't worth it
> - The cold water leaked due to thread corrosion even tightly screwed on
> - Hot water leaked back into the heater when the cold water was shut
> - The overflow pipe wasn't installed yet due to a question for you
> - We loosened sandy sediment which clogged our showerheads
> etc.
>
> Now that we're done, we have MORE QUESTIONS to ask (and hopefully we can
> all get the answers together).
>
> Take a look at the photos uploaded earlier today:http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/
>
> Let's learn from this half-day job.
> Would this hot water heater R&R pass your inspection?
> Why or why not?
>
> Donna & Bill

can't see your photos at work, but definitely brush a soapy water
solution over all gas connections and check for bubbles.

nate

== 4 of 7 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 6:54 am
From: "hallerb@aol.com"

all your galvanized needs replaced, when corroded that bad soon it
will leak:(

== 5 of 7 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 6:55 am
From: "hallerb@aol.com"

on energy costs, this heater was designed after the energy guide label
specs were created, thats why its energy use is under the lowest.

the intricate baffels are there to help efficency.

== 6 of 7 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 7:16 am
From: "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"

On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 05:29:11 -0800 (PST), N8N wrote:
> I just replaced the anodes ... on two ancient (80's) water heaters
> it turns out that they were both still in good shape

Hi Nate,

That brings up the first (of many) questions that arose when we replaced
our hot water heater (with your help) yesterday ...

1. I agree, while replacing the altruistic anode is a "good thing" ...

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2086/2274079124_f60ec145cf.jpg?v=0

The problem I found is ...

2. Even Superman couldn't would have a tough time removing mine ...

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2033/2274085498_52c3b7d618.jpg?v=0

Given it took a pipe wrench plus a huge cheater bar to remove the anode
with the water heater removed and blocked on the ground ... and given that
any in-place plumbing and vent ducts would have severely hampered access
... and given that a water heater isn't rigidly "mounted" ... I wonder ...

Can anyone really expect to remove the anode when it needs inspection?
Why don't they provide TWO HOLES so you can add a second anode when needed?

Donna
http://www.flickr.com/donnaohl

== 7 of 7 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 6:26 am
From: "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"

On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 06:28:15 -0800 (PST), N8N wrote:
> can't see your photos at work, but definitely brush a soapy water
> solution over all gas connections and check for bubbles.

Hi Nate,
Yes, I personally did the check for natural-gas leaks.

Bill slathered on the TPE cream, taking care to leave the last two threads
bare, and we didn't see any bubbles with a solution of Dawn and water
brushed on with a toothbrush.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2273276731/

One minor question we had for the natural gas line was whether or not to
kink the gas hose in an S-shaped curve to trap sediments before they enter
the thermostat.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2273276741/

Do you arrange the gas hose in any particular manner?

Also, does anyone know the significance of the red aluminum ring around the
gas hose? Does it have any meaning?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2273250275/

Donna
http://www.flickr.com/donnaohl

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Cloth Diapers & Soap Nuts
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/a35a803954003b9a?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 2:08 am
From: kristy@kristy.id.au

Hi there!

On Jan 29, 11:30 pm, "AllEmailDeletedImmediately" <der...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

> clarification: i don't have diapers, so i can't say about that, but the soap
> nuts
> work fine for the rest of my laundry. bio-kleen and bac out (same
> company makes both) are supposed to be very good for diapers.

Hi! I came across this thread and I am not sure if this is a question
or implied question but thought I'd answer it none-the-less. Soap
nuts are a fantastic choice for nappies as they are hypo-allergenic
and great for parents who are wanting to play it safe because of
family histories of skin sensitivities such as excema and soriasis.
All you need to remember is to use 1 half shell per kilo capacity of
your washing machine (apportioned to your water level) and they'll
then last 4-6 washes depending on washing temperature and make sure
you hang them in direct sunlight to kill of any bacteria.

I too sell these items (but in/from Australia) which, I assume, is not
any real competition to the OP's site. I was unlucky enough to pass
chemical sensitivities onto my children and as such cannot use
anything with soda ash or the like. I now have my third child in soap
nut washed, modern cloth nappies (dry-pailed hemp ones) with far less
dramas than when I used conventional washing products. My site is at
http://www.greenandnutty.com.au/ if anyone is interested in more
product information. I must say I have nearly passed out at the price
you can get away with charging in other countries - cost of living is
pretty low here!

HTH
KrisB

==============================================================================
TOPIC: How many therms (natural gas) do you use per day (per month)?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/99d004d38152f87d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 3:04 am
From: Jeff

George Cornelius wrote:
> In article <13rfk3vco5aba0c@corp.supernews.com>, Jeff <jeff@spam_me_not.com> writes:
>> Tony Hwang wrote:
>>> What is therm? Here in Alberta measurement is by the Giga Joule.
>
> At last! Someone using a rational energy unit.
>
>> By definition it is 100,000 BTU's. Blame the British and their Thermal
>> Units!
>
> In fact, the BTU is one of the best of the British (actually now just
> American) units.

It's fairly useful for energy calculations when everything else is in
SAE, or whatever you call not metric. Insulation (in the US) is rated in
BTUs, square feet and degrees F. The amount of specific heat stored is 1
BTU per degree F per pound of water. Now if you mix in any metric, it
all becomes completely unwieldly. Either all metric or none at all makes
the most sense. I think we've had some rockets that smacked Mars because
of that.

Jeff

> It's 1055 Joules, but as a rule of thumb you can think
> of it as a kJ.
>
> But having different units for every single energy source is just nuts.
>
> Who else uses the therm, roughly .1 GJ, but the U.S. Gas industry?
>
> www.oilnergy.com lists natural gas prices in MMBtu, where MM=1000*1000
> or one million. That's pretty nice, just about the same thing as a GJ,
> so we and the Canucks can actually think we are talking the same language.
>
> [And MMBtu ~= MCF, so we have a three-way match]
>
> --
> George Cornelius cornelius ( A T ) eisner.decus.org

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 6:45 am
From: George

On Sat, 16 Feb 2008 13:24:44 -0700, "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer
Coordinator" <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>I'm curious how I compare with others in my natural gas usage.
>
>I used 120 therms in the past 30 days (about 4 therms per day).
>HOW MANY THERMS DID YOU USE LAST MONTH?
>
>I do realize that there are _many_ factors that affect usage but there is
>only one number for your final usage. That's what I'd like to compare.

Jan use: 220 therms (old masonry house, upstate NY)
Annual: 1450

In the winter, we pretty consistently run about 0.2 therms per
degree-day.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: PROGNOSTIC ASSETS
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/058625bca6944986?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 3:18 am
From: "cafemingle@yahoo.se"

Principal Assets Prognostication Ascribe

CWM WORLDWIDE - Principal Assets Prognostication Ascribe. A
Certificate means of the Directors opinion that, having made due and
careful enquiry, the working capital available to the Company will be
sufficient for its present requirements, that is for a coming to the
date of Admission right to the consolidated audited accounts prepared.
The financial information set out does not constitute statutory
accounts of the Company within the meaning of section 240 of the Act.
As a company incorporated in Guernsey, it has not been required to
prepare audited accounts for the relevant period and such has not
delivered statutory financial statements to the Register of Companies
in Guernsey. The financial information in this document is based on
the un-audited financial statements of the Company. A company is not
required to withhold tax at source from its dividend payments.
Individual pro-share-holders should generally be entitled to a tax
credit in respect of any dividend received equal to one-ninth of the
dividend. Liability to income tax is calculated on the aggregate of
the dividend and tax credit which will be regarded as the top slice of
the individual's income. Individual pro-share-holders liable to tax at
the starting rate (10 per cent.) or basic rate (22 per cent.) will
have no further liability to income tax. The tax credit satisfies the
whole of the starting and basic rate liability. Individuals liable to
tax at the higher rate (40 per cent.) are subject to income tax at the
rate of 32.5 per cent. on the aggregate of the dividend and tax
credit. After taking account of the tax credit, the pro-share-holder
will be liable to income tax at the rate of 32.5 per cent. of the
aggregate of the dividend and tax credit, equal to 25 per cent, of the
dividend. A corporate pro-share-holder will not normally be liable to
corporation tax on any dividend received. With limited exceptions
(relating to charities) corporate shareholders cannot claim repayment
of the tax credit. Tax-exempt pension funds will not normally be
liable to corporation tax or income tax on any dividend received and
cannot claim repayment of the tax credit. Individual shareholders who
are resident for tax purposes in countries other than the United
Kingdom but who are Commonwealth citizens, nationals of states which
are part of the European Union, residents of the Isle of Man or the
Channel Islands as well as certain other persons, are entitled to a
tax credit in the United Kingdom as if they were resident for tax
purposes in the United Kingdom. Such pro-share-holders will normally
not be able to claim repayment of the tax credit.

Individual Pension Claim - Legitimate Claim
Article 4(1) of Directive 79/7 was sufficiently precise to be relied
upon by a party in proceedings before a national court for the purpose
of persuading that court to invalidate any provision of national law
which infringed the said article. The principle of equal treatment is
'without prejudice to the provisions relating to the protection of
women on the grounds of maternity' (Article4(2)). These provisions are
likely to be interpreted according to the same principles as apply to
Article 2(3) of Directive 76/207. Article 7 expressly allows member
States to exclude certain matters from the scope of the equal
treatment principle. These are:
(a) the determination of pension able age for the purpose of old-age
and retirement pensions and possible consequences thereof for other
benefits; (b) benefits or entitlements granted to persons who have
brought up children; (c) wives' derived old-age or invalidity
benefits, and (d) increases granted in respect of dependent wives
related to long-term invalidity, old-age, accidents at work and
occupational disease benefits.

Finally, CWM WORLDWIDE - Principal Assets Prognostication Ascribe
gains great strength from its strategic partnership with the Global
Pension Plan family and other organizations that offer specific
economic governance policy services. In every region, CWM WORLDWIDE -
Principal Assets Prognostication Ascribe faces a growing number of
requests for policy, technical and programme advice in support of
strengthening economic and democratic governance.

OPTIONS CONSIDERED: Global Pension Plan
website: www.globalpp.net/?id=cwmtrader

CWM WORLDWIDE: Casheasier Chargecard
website: http://casheasier.blogspot.com

==============================================================================
TOPIC: ? for landlords
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/648f8a4eebe4a886?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 3:41 am
From: "Joe"

> how do you vet your tenants?

www.freecreditreport.com - Ask for a copy of this report with their
application.

It won't help with the human side, but with the money side, it might.
--

Joe in Northern, NJ - V#8013-R

Currently Riding The "Mother Ship"
http://yunx.com/valk.htm

Ride a motorcycle in or near NJ?
http://tinyurl.com/hmzj
http://tinyurl.com/5apkg

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 4:29 am
From: "Bill"

>
> how do you vet your tenants?

These days you can get a tenant who sets up a drug lab and this can result
in a toxic waste clean-up which can cost a small fortune or result in the
need to demolish the property!

Basically a landlord is loaning a property worth $100,000.00 and up to a
total stranger. So a good idea to get to know the tenant real good BEFORE
renting to them...

Can do a rental check to check the renters prior experiences with other
landlords. (Paid on time, left property in good condition, etc.)

Can do a driver's license check. (The thinking being that a responsible
person would also obey traffic laws. Also if driving under influence
charge(s), this can be an indication of drug use and/or irresponsibility.)

Can run credit check. (If person has paid other bills on time it is an
indication that the person will also pay their rent on time.)

Can run criminal background check. (Looking for drug charges here mostly.)

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 5:47 am
From: George

Joe wrote:
>> how do you vet your tenants?
>
> www.freecreditreport.com - Ask for a copy of this report with their
> application.
>
> It won't help with the human side, but with the money side, it might.

But having apartments I can say the human side is 95% of the equation.

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 7:16 am
From: barbie gee

On Mon, 18 Feb 2008, AllEmailDeletedImmediately wrote:

> how do you vet your tenants?

Use a standard application form for all tenants.
Screen further with a credit check and work verification and 2 previous
landlords, done by a tenant screening agency. Prospective tenant(s)
pay $30 screening fee upfront. Call the 2 landlords
yourself, as well.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: New Idea For Going Green
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/627ce12a40076350?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 4:14 am
From: Johnnie In The Billows

On Feb 16, 12:42 pm, "The Thack" <theth...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
> "Johnnie In The Billows" <brightice2...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in messagenews:01b695fc-6e79-4bb0-8c7f-d7867913edf9@q78g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>
> > Recycle your chewing gum! Don't buy a new stick and spit it out on
> > the pavement after ten minutes.
>
> > Remember the old days, when people made a single gumball last for
> > three months!! (When not in use, you can stick it on your dashboard,
> > under the rim of the table, on the sole of your shoe, etc.)
>
> > Preserve the gum trees and save our sidewalks at the same time.
>
> Better still, shove it up your arse, you fucking waste of space.

Good thinking! Plenty of room there.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: cold water detergent
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/28e84033bdbeafba?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 4:21 am
From: clams_casino

Shawn Hirn wrote:

>In article <fp9k91$a09$1@news.datemas.de>, Marsha <mas@xeb.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>>Anyone have a recommendation?
>>
>>Marsha/Ohio
>>
>>
>
>Tide works for me.
>
>

I'm surprised Tide dissolves in cold water. Back when I was in the
textile business, a standard test for wash fastness utilized Tide as the
soap. Making a Tide solution (even with hot water) always resulted in
a sediment of undissolved particles.

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 6:23 am
From: BillGill

Marsha wrote:
> Anyone have a recommendation?
>
> Marsha/Ohio
>
I just use whatever detergent I buy. Usually something with no perfumes.

Bill Gill

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 7:08 am
From: "Evelyn C. Leeper"

BillGill wrote:
> Marsha wrote:
>> Anyone have a recommendation?
>>
>> Marsha/Ohio
>>
> I just use whatever detergent I buy. Usually something with no perfumes.

Same here. It seems to me that most tests of detergents haven't shown
that you need a special one for cold water.

--
Evelyn C. Leeper
Heretic: someone who disagrees with you about
something neither of you knows anything about.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: open virus this to know your fortune
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/7d0f77f05c327a6d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 4:24 am
From: clams_casino

nalachakravarthy@gmail.com wrote:

>open this to know your fortune
>******************************************************
>http://microorganism
>
>

Hmm - microorganisms sent via gmail / google groups from India.

I think I already know what to expect.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Don't pay for ring tones etc.
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/b939ef0b086c065b?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 5:26 am
From: George

George Grapman wrote:
> George wrote:
>> Gordon wrote:
>>> At the risk of looking like spam...
>>> I have no connection with this site, but I like it
>>> because it saves me money and it flips a finger at the grubby
>>> cellphone companies that try to rake in
>>> extra cash by forcing you to buy what should be free.
>>>
>>> See, I got frustrated because the LG Fusic phone I got
>>> with my Sprint plan didn't have the capability to allow
>>> me to load mp3 ringers from my computer. Instead they wanted me
>>> to buy ringers and download them. That's just plain wrong.
>>>
>>> So I eventally found this site:
>>>
>>> http://www.funformobile.com/pages/ringtone/uploadRingtone.php
>>>
>>> What you do is create an MP3 ring tone, or use a popular
>>> song in mp3 format. You goto this site and and upload
>>> it. Then you get a text message on your phone with a special URL
>>> that you open to download the ringer into your
>>> phone. Completely bypassing the need to buy ringtones from
>>> Sprint or others.
>>>
>>> It also works for screen savers and wakllpaper too.
>>
>> Be careful with stuff like this. I have heard a number of people tell
>> me that they were billed after getting their "free" ringtones. It
>> seems that you agree somewhere that it is OK for them to bill you via
>> your cellular carrier much in the same way long distance carriers do.
>> One person even showed me their bill.
>
>
> Unless they can prove you agreed to psy them you can refuse the charge.

Sure, but thats why they typically have the "I agree to terms and
conditions" box to tick. Most people aren't inclined to wade through a
long document to get their "free" whatever.

A company that is famous for that is "freecreditreport.con". People
would pump in their info after seeing all of the advertising about free
credit reports and find they had subscribed to a monthly service. I know
2 people who had to cancel their CCs to get away from them (reminds me a
lot of what aol used to do). Now they explicitly tell you that they
really don't have free credit reports at "freecreditreport.con".

In case anyone is interested actual free credit reports are at:

http://www.annualcreditreport.com

==============================================================================
TOPIC: muslim-christian dialougue
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/791f1804176664ac?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 6:30 am
From: "Stormin Mormon"

Right on Target: Book Of Mormon
by Matthew Roper

One morning, several years ago, I had to acquire some materials for a
research project I was working on. In company with two friends, I visited a
small Salt Lake City bookstore operated by a well-known anti-Mormon couple.
The woman, and co-proprietor of this establishment, was most helpful in
assisting me in my aim. While there, I had the opportunity to witness and
also engage in a most interesting conversation with this woman. During our
conversation the question arose as to what, in her view, would constitute
acceptable evidence in support of the Book of Mormon. She struggled with
this question for several minutes, so we asked if some kind of inscription
would do. This would depend, she said. One of my companions then gave her a
hypothetical scenario: Let's suppose non-Mormon archaeologists found an
inscription in highland Guatemala dating to the early sixth century B.C.
with the name Nephi written in Reformed Egyptian. If verified, would such a
find then constitute evidence for the Book of Mormon? Yet our kind host was
unwilling to grant that even this would constitute such evidence, allowing
only that, "it might be a topic of discussion." In leaving her store it was
unclear what if anything would constitute such evidence.

In reflecting on this experience I have been reminded of the words of the
Lord to a young Joseph Smith. No doubt eager to share the excitement of
early sacred experiences with others, the Lord warned, "Behold, if they will
not believe my words, they would not believe you, my servant Joseph, if it
were possible that you should show them all these things which I have
committed unto you" (D&C 5:7).

When dealing with issues of scholarship I believe it is proper and wise for
Latter-day Saints to distinguish between "evidence" and "proof." As I see it
"evidence" is something that tends to support a particular proposition,
theory, or claim. "Proof" is something that is already accepted as
established without question. Frequently in the real world proof only occurs
at an individual level and is a personal judgment which one makes when they
have become convinced that the sum of the evidence taken together is
persuasive enough to accept a proposition as established or true. In
discussions of scholarly issues, people with different opinions may agree
upon the validity of particular pieces of evidence, while still disagreeing
in their final judgment of what the sum of that evidence may mean.

The Book of Mormon claims to be an ancient text compiled by ancient American
prophets that was translated by the gift and power of God by Joseph Smith, a
nineteenth century prophet. One is not going to be able to establish, simply
by scholarly learning, whether or not God lives and really spoke to Joseph
Smith, sent angels to him to reveal the Book of Mormon and so forth.
Scholarly learning is not a tool equipped to deal with questions of the
divine and miracles. For most of us these are questions of faith and they
are questions that can only be fully answered by the examination of
spiritual evidence. It is written in Hebrews, "Now faith is the substance of
things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" (Hebrews 11:1). Note that
faith is not blind trust in a lack of evidence, but the trust in another
kind of evidence that can be discerned spiritually, although not seen. Have
you ever been truly happy? What was it like? Is that real to you? Does that
experience tell you something about what made you feel that way? Was it
good? Of course. Things don't have to be seen with the eye to be real.

[The testimony of the Holy Ghost to the individual] must ever be the chief
source of evidence for the truth of the Book of Mormon. All other evidence
is secondary to this, the primary and infallible. No arrangement of
evidence, however skillfully ordered; no argument, however adroitly made,
can ever take its place; for this witness of the Holy Spirit to the soul of
man for the truth of the Nephite volume of scripture, is God's evidence to
the truth; and it will ever be the chief reliance of those who accept the
Book of Mormon, and expect to see its acceptance throughout the world.1

This does not mean that we should not examine scholarly issues, however. It
simply means that there is a form of evidence that is primary because it is
more reassuring and ultimately more reliable, enduring and satisfactory.
Still, the fruits of careful scholarship have their place.

To be known, the truth must be stated and the clearer and more complete the
statement is, the better opportunity will the Holy Spirit have for
testifying to the souls of men that the work is true. ...Secondary evidences
in support of truth, like secondary causes in natural phenomena, may be of
first-rate importance, and mighty factors in the achievement of God's
purposes.2

There are many kinds of secondary evidence to consider. I would like to
consider one particular kind of secondary evidence, what I would call
"boomerang hits" in the Book of Mormon. These are elements found in the Book
of Mormon text which have in the past been loudly derided by critics or sent
them into paroxysms of laughter, but which when re-examined today can be
seen in a whole new light.

In 1963 Hugh Nibley observed

It is the "howlers" with which the Book of Mormon abounds that furnish the
best index to its authenticity. They show, first of all, that the book was
definitely not a typical product of its time, and secondly, when they are
examined more closely in the light of present-day evidence, they appear very
different indeed than they did a hundred years ago.3

The "Land of Jerusalem"
"'The land of Jerusalem.'" exclaimed Origen Bacheler in 1838, "There is no
such land. No part of Palestine bears the name of Jerusalem, except the city
itself."4 While the phrase cannot be found in the Bible, it does appear in
the Amarna Tablets, not discovered until 1887, where it appears at least
five times. The phrase also appears in another recently published Dead Sea
Scroll fragment attributed to Jeremiah, which refers to Jeremiah and others
who "were taken captive from the land of Jerusalem."5 Eisenmann and Wise
state that this is a phrase which "greatly enhances the sense of
historicity" of the document in question.6 Might we not now say the same
about the Book of Mormon?

Old World Steel in the Book of Mormon
Nephi states that Laban, a powerful military official in Jerusalem around
600 B.C., possessed a sword with a blade "of the most precious steel" (1
Nephi 4:9).7 Many critics of the Book of Mormon have cited this passage as
evidence against the Book of Mormon's historicity, "Steel," it is argued,
"was not known to man in those days."8 Today, however, it is increasingly
apparent that the practice of "steeling" iron through deliberate
carburization was well known to the Near Eastern world from which the Lehi
colony emerged. "It seems evident that by the beginning of the tenth century
B.C. blacksmiths were intentionally steeling iron."9 A carburized iron knife
dating to the twelfth century B.C. is known from Cyprus.10 In addition to
this, "a site on Mt. Adir in northern Israel has yielded an iron pick in
association with twelfth century pottery. One would hesitate to remove a
sample from the pick for analysis, but it has been possible to test the tip
for hardness. The readings averaged 38 on the Rockwell 'C' scale of
hardness. This is a reading characteristic of modern hardened steel."11
Quenching and tempering, methods of steeling iron, were also known to
Mediterranean blacksmiths during this period.12 Archaeologists recently
discovered a tempered carburized iron sword near Jericho. The sword which
had a bronze haft, was one meter long and dates to the time of King Josiah,
who would have been a contemporary of Lehi.13 Hershall Shanks recently
described the find as "spectacular" since it is "the only complete sword of
its size and type from this period yet discovered in Israel."14 Such
discoveries lend a greater sense of historicity to Nephi's passing comment
in the Book of Mormon.

Cement
In his abridgement of the Nephite chronicle, Mormon recorded that about 46
B.C. a group of Nephites migrated to the land northward. He stated, "The
people who went forth became exceedingly expert in the working of cement;
therefore they did build houses of cement in the which they did dwell"
(Helaman 3:7). In 1929, President Heber J. Grant recalled,

When I was a young married man another young man who had received a doctor's
degree ridiculed me for believing in the Book of Mormon. He said he could
point out two lies in that book. One was that the people had built their
homes out of cement and that they were very skillful in the use of cement.
He said there had never been found and never would be found, a house built
of cement by the ancient inhabitants of this country, because the people of
that early age knew nothing about cement. He said that should be enough to
make one disbelieve the book. I said: "That does not affect my faith one
particle. I read the Book of Mormon prayerfully and supplicated God for a
testimony in my heart and soul of the divinity of it, and I have accepted it
and believe it with all my heart." I also said to him, "If my children do
not find cement houses, I expect that my grandchildren will." He said,
"Well, what is the good of talking to a fool like that"15

In more recent years other critics have expressed similar sentiments. John L
Smith, for example, asserts, "There is zero archaeological evidence that any
kind of cement existed in the Americas prior to modern times."16

Once thought to be anachronistic, references to "cement" in the Book of
Mormon (Helaman 3:7,9,11) can be seen today as further evidence of the
authenticity of the text. This is because today the presence of expert
cement technology in pre-Hispanic America is a well-established
archaeological fact. "American technology in the manufacture of cement, its
mixing and placement two thousand years ago, paralleled that of the Greeks
and the Romans during the same period" notes structural engineer, David
Hyman, in a recent study devoted to the use of cement in Pre-Columbian
Mexico. The earliest known sample of such cement dates to the first century
A.D. and is a "fully developed product."17 Known samples of Mesoamerican
cement work show signs of remarkable skill and sophistication. "Technology
in the manufacturing of calcareous cements in Middle America [were] equal to
any in the world at the advent of the Christian Era."18 For example,
concrete floor slabs at Teotihuacan that date to about this time exceed many
present-day building requirements.19 While the earliest known samples are
from the first century A.D., scholars believe that "their degree of
perfection could not have been instantaneously created, but rather would
have required a considerable period of development" before then.20 Hyman
asks, "Were these materials invented by indigenous unnamed people far
preceding the occupation of Teotihuacan, or were they introduced by an
exotic culture."21 In its references to "cement," the Book of Mormon
anticipates what has now been well established.

Names
Critics of the Book of Mormon have been reluctant to grant the historical
complexity of Book of Mormon names, even when faced with scholarly evidence
supporting their authenticity. One man after writing a series of
inflammatory letters designed to elicit negative comments about Latter-day
Saint scriptures from prominent Near Eastern scholars, received a response
from William F. Albright of John's Hopkins University. Contrary to this
individual's expectations, Albright expressed doubts that Joseph Smith could
have learned Egyptian from any nineteenth century sources. Explaining that
he was a Protestant and hence not a believer in the Book of Mormon, he
observed, "It is all the more surprising that there are two Egyptian names,
Paanch[i] and Pahor[an] which appear in the Book of Mormon in close
connection with a reference to the original language being 'Reformed
Egyptian.'" Puzzled at the existence of such names in an obscure book
published by Joseph Smith in 1830, Albright vaguely suggested that the young
Mormon leader was some kind of "religious genius."22 Incensed by this
response, this same critic wrote to another scholar in England. Without
mentioning Albright by name, he complained of "another scholar who is
renowned in ancient Semitic studies" who "though a Protestant, he writes of
the Book of Mormon like it had authentic Egyptian-Hebrew support. He even
offered me what he said were two good Egyptian names in the Book of
Mormon-Paanchi and Pahoran. ...Certainly he would know Joseph Smith didn't
understand Egyptian, but why would he leave an impression that Joseph Smith
was on the right track?"23

Alma
Critics have occasionally had fun at Latter-day Saint expense since the Book
of Mormon has several prophets known as Alma. Here are a few comments that
are typical:
Alma is supposed to be a prophet of God and of Jewish ancestry in the Book
of Mormon. In Hebrew Alma means a betrothed virgin maiden-hardly a fitting
name for a man.24

In most of the United States Alma is a woman's name. However, in Utah, only
the men are named Alma... Thus we see that even in peoples names, Mormonism
redefines Christian words to suit its meanings.25

So Mormons who name their sons Alma have actually named them 'lass' or
'virgin' or a young woman. Interesting!26

We still find it interesting that so many Mormons saddle their sons with a
word that means 'lass' or 'damsel.' It reminds us of the 'boy named Sue.'
Again, Mormonism has redefined a word. ...Typical of the strange definitions
that Mormonism gives familiar terms, perhaps we should not think it strange
that Mormonism gives boys a girl's name.27

As can be seen, critics have had a lot of fun with the name Alma, however,
in the 1960s Israeli archaeologist Yigael Yadin discovered a land deed near
the Dead Sea dating to the early second century A.D. and rendered the name
of a Jew mentioned therein as "Alma ben Yehuda" showing for the first time
in modern history that the name Alma was an authentic Hebrew male name.28
Additional research in Ebla, in what is modern Syria, has also turned up
this name showing that it goes back to nearly 2200 B.C.29

Jershon
The Book of Mormon name Jershon can be traced to a Hebrew root meaning "to
inherit." In the Book of Mormon we read "Behold, we will give up the land of
Jershon, which is on the east by the sea...and this land of Jershon is the
land which we will give unto our brethren for an inheritance" (Alma 27:22).

Shilum
Alma 11:5-15 describes various monetary units which the Nephites used at one
point in their history. Alma 11:16 in our current edition of the Book of
Mormon states that one of these units was a "shiblum." However, both the
1830 edition of the Book of Mormon and the Printer's manuscript indicate
that this originally read "shilum." Significantly, Shilum is a perfectly
good Hebrew word. It literally means "retribution...a fee: recompense,
reward." That makes sense in a monetary context doesn't it?

Nahom
Nephi recorded, "And it came to pass that Ishmael died, and was buried in
the place which was called Nahom. And it came to pass that the daughters of
Ishmael did mourn exceedingly, because of the loss of their father" (1 Nephi
16:34-35). Biblical scholars point to the root NHM meaning to "comfort" or
"console." In some forms the word "comes simply to mean 'suffer emotional
pain'. The sense 'be comforted' is retained in context of mourning for the
dead."30 Damrosch notes that all references to NHM in the Hebrew Bible are
associated with death. "In family settings, it is applied in instances
involving death of an immediate family member (parent, sibling, or child);
in national settings, it has to do with the survival or impending
extermination of an entire people. At heart, naham means 'to mourn,' to come
to terms with a death; these usages are usually translated...by the verb 'to
comfort,' as when Jacob's children try to comfort their father after the
reported death of Joseph."31 The events in 1 Nephi 16:34-35 fit this context
quite well since we are told that Ishmael, a close family member, died and
his daughters mourn and murmur.

Alan Goff was written a important article on the meaning of NHM as it
relates to 1 Nephi 16:34-39).32 Goff was apparently the first to note that
the significance of this term may go beyond the obvious context of mourning
for the dead. Nephi related, "And Laman said unto Lemuel and also unto the
sons of Ishmael: Behold let us slay our father, and also our brother
Nephi....And it came to pass that the Lord was with us, yea even the voice
of the Lord came and did speak many words unto them, and did chasten them
exceedingly; and after they were chastened by the voice of the Lord they did
turn away their anger, and did repent of their sins, insomuch that the Lord
did bless us again with food, that we did not perish" (1 Nephi 16:37, 39).
According to one scholar, the term NHM can also be "extended to describe the
release of emotional tension involved in performing a declared action
(executing wrath), or retracting a declared action (such as sin, punishment
or blessing)."33 Damarosch notes that the Hebrew term naham is sometimes
applied to contexts involving "cases of regret or change of heart"
frequently "when the repenter is meditating murder. 'Repentance' [or change
of heart] then involves either the decision to kill, or conversely, the
decision to stop killing. The term can then be used in quite ignoble
circumstances, as when Esau comforts himself for the loss of his birthright
by deciding to kill Jacob (Gen. 27:42), but usually it is God who repents,
either negatively or positively; negatively, by deciding to destroy his
people; positively, by commuting a sentence of destruction."34 Again, this
explanation clearly fits the context of 1 Nephi 16:34-39 where Laman and
Lemuel and the sons of Ishmael contemplate the murder of their father Lehi
and their brother Nephi and where the Lord is angry with them and where
after being chastened by the Lord they turn away their anger and repent of
their sins and the Lord also apparently turns away his wrath and does not
destroy them with hunger. It is also interesting that while they had up
until this time been traveling southward (1 Nephi 16:13) they now turn and
travel eastward (1 Nephi 17:1).

Sheum
According to Zeniff's record in the Book of Mormon account, "And we began to
till the ground, yea, even with all manner of seeds of corn, and of wheat,
and of barley, and with neas, and with sheum" (Mosiah 9:9). "Pray tell me
what kinds of grain neas and sheum are? Joseph Smith's translation needs
another translation, to render it intelligible."35 "We must reluctantly pass
on denying the existence of neas and sheum, and put them into the same
category as the unidentifiable cureloms and cumoms."36 As it turns out sheum
is a perfectly good Akkadian (ancient northern Mesopotamian) name for a
grain dating to the third millennium B.C.37 This term, se um, (the s is
pronounced sh in semitic languages) was a term by which these ancient Near
Eastern peoples referred to barley, although it could also be applied to
other kinds of grains. Book of Mormon peoples seem to have applied this Old
World name to some New World crop. Could Joseph Smith have derived this name
from some nineteenth century book? Impossible. Akkadian could not be read
until 1857, twenty-seven years after the Book of Mormon was published and
thirteen years after the Prophet was dead. This raises an interesting
question. If Joseph Smith was really the author of the Book of Mormon, how
did he come up with the word sheum? How did he just happen to choose this
particular name and just happen to use it in an agricultural context?

Barley in the Book of Mormon
The Book of Mormon states that the people of Zeniff cultivated barley in the
promised land (Mosiah 9:9). In 1887 M.T. Lamb wrote, "It is a somewhat
stubborn fact that barley was never found upon either of these western
continents until imported by Europeans in modern times!"38 In 1910 Charles
Shook asked, "But where is the proof of this extraordinary assertion? It
seems very probable that, if Americans had once had ... barley, they would
not have given up [its] cultivation and use, and yet [it was] not to be
found in America when the Europeans came." Shook then noted that while
ancient Pre-Columbian sites were known in Peru, Arizona and Ohio for
example, "not a vestige" of barley has ever been found" at any of these
sites.39

"In this book, we are told," stated William Biederwolf in a widely
circulated anti-Mormon pamphlet, "that barley was among the produce of the
earth, whereas all respected scholarship is absolutely positive in its
authority" that barley is only a modern New World crop.40 In 1964 Gordon
Fraser asserted, "The only grain known in America was maize."41 Elsewhere
the same author described the Book of Mormon references to barley as one of
numerous "verifiable blunders" found in the Book of Mormon.42 In a popular
anti-Mormon work published in 1979, former Mormon Latayne Colvett Scott
could safely affirm what previous critics already knew that, "barley never
grew in the New World before the white man brought it here!"43 Other
Evangelical critics were even more smug, "If there was no barley in America
until the white man came, then [the Book of Mormon] must be false. If God
were the one that wrote the Book of Mormon, is it not a reasonable
assumption that he would have known there was no barley in the New World?
The Book of Mormon...falls short of authenticatable [sic] truth."44

As this last statement was being written, archaeologists discovered several
specimens of pre-Columbian domesticated barley while excavating a Hohokam
Indian site near Phoenix, Arizona. "Perhaps the most startling evidence of
Hohokam agricultural sophistication came last year when salvage
archaeologists found preserved grains of what looks like domesticated
barley, the first ever found in the New World."45 This startling discovery
was later confirmed by additional discoveries in both Oklahoma and Illinois.
"It is reasonable to conclude that we are looking at a North American
domesticated grain crop whose existence has not been suspected."46 Or as
another set of botanists states, "[Our] project reveal[s] a previously
unidentified seed type now identified as little barley (Hordeum pusillum),
and there are strong indications that this grain must be added to the list
of starchy-seeded plants that were cultivated in the region by 2000 years
ago."47 Of course it was the Book of Mormon that first pointed this out.

Conclusion
Let's imagine a scenario. Suppose I read the Book of Mormon some time ago,
say, in the 1970s. I read about the Nephites having barley. I reject the
Book of Mormon because there is no evidence for pre-Columbian barley. This
was, after all, the scholarly consensus-there was no pre-Columbian
domesticated barley in the New World period! But now it turns out that this
view was wrong. There was in fact archaeological evidence for barley in
pre-Columbian America. It just hadn't been discovered yet. Let's suppose I
had even staked my life on the belief in opinion of scholars that there was
no such grain before Columbus. Wouldn't I have made a terrible mistake? The
example of pre-Columbian barley should be a warning to us that similar
evidences for the Book of Mormon, which at present seem to be anachronisms,
may yet be forthcoming as well

.
Notes
1 B.H. Roberts, New Witnesses for God (Salt Lake City: Deseret News, 1909),
2:vi-vii.

2 Ibid., vii-viii.

3 Hugh Nibley, "Howlers in the Book of Mormon" Millennial Star 125 (February
1963): 28.

4 Origen Bachelor, Mormonism Exposed Internally and Externally. (New York:
Privately Published, 1838), 14.

5 Eisenmann and Wise, 57-58.

6 Ibid.

7 Noah Webster's 1828 English dictionary defines "steel" as "iron combined
with a small portion of carbon; iron refined and hardened...particularly
useful as the material of edged tools." Noah Webster, An American Dictionary
of the English Language. 2 vols. (New York: S. Converse, 1828), 2:80.

8 Stuart Martin, The Mystery of Mormonism. (London: Odhams Press, 1920), 44.

9 Robert Maddin, James D. Muhly and Tamara S. Wheeler, "How the Iron Age
Began," Scientific American 237/4 (October 1977): 127.

10 Ibid. The knife shows evidence of quenching. See Tamara S. Wheeler and
Robert Maddin, "Metallurgy and Ancient Man," in The Coming Age of Iron. (New
Haven and London: Yale University Press, 1980), 121.

11 Maddin, Muhly, and Wheeler, "How the Iron Age Began," 127.

12 Ibid., 131. James D, Muhly, "How iron technology changed the ancient
world" Biblical Archaeology Review (November-December 1982): In Hershall
Shanks, Archaeology and the Bible: The Best of BAR (1990) 1:234.

13 Hershall Shanks, "Antiquities Director Confronts Problems and
Controversies," Biblical Archaeology Review 12/4 (July-August 1986): 33, 35.

14 Ibid.

15 Heber J. Grant, Conference Report, April 1929, 129.

16 John L. Smith, "What about those Gold Plates?" The Utah Evangel 33/6
(September 1986): 8.

17 David S. Hyman, Pre-Columbian Cements: A Study of the Calcareous Cements
in Pre-Hispanic Mesoamerican Building Construction (Baltimore: John's
Hopkins University, 1970), ii.

18 Ibid., 6-15.

19 Ibid., 6-7.

20 Ibid., 6-15.

21 Ibid., 6-16.

22 William F. Albright to Grant S. Heward, Baltimore, Maryland, 25 July
1966.

23 Grant S. Heward to I.E.S. Edwards, Midvale, Utah, 14 March 1967. I would
like to thank Boyd Peterson for providing this reference.

24 Walter Martin, The Maze of Mormonism (Santa Ana, California: Vision
House, 1978), 327.

25 Robert McKay, "A Mormon Name" Utah Evangel 31/8 (August 1984): 4.

26 John L. Smith, editorial comment on Robert McKay, "A Mormon Name" Utah
Evangel 31/8 (August 1984): 4.

27 "That Man Alma" Utah Evangel 33/3 (April 1986): 2.

28 Yigael Yadin, Bar-Kokhba (London: Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1965), 176.

29 Terrence L. Szink, "Further evidence of a semitic Alma" Journal of Book
of Mormon Studies 8/1 (1999): 70.

30 H. Van Dyke Parunak, "A Semantic Survey of NHM," Biblica 56 (1975): 532.

31 David Damrosch, The Narrative Covenant. (San Francisco: Harper and Row,
1987), 128-129.

32 Alan Goff, "Mourning , Consolation, and Repentance at Nahom," in John L.
Sorenson and Melvin J. Thorne, eds., Rediscovering the Book of Mormon:
Insights You May Have Missed Before. (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book and
FARMS, 1991), 92-99.

33 Parunak, "A Semantic Survey of NHM," 532.

34 Damrosch, Narrative Covenant, 129.

35 Origen Bacheler, Mormonism Exposed, 14.

36 Latayne Colvett Scott, The Mormon Mirage: A former Mormon tells why she
left the Church (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan, 1979), 84.

37 Hildegard Lewy, "On Some Old Assyrian Cereal Names," Journal of the
American Oriental Society 76/4 (October-December 1956): 201-204.

38 M.T. Lamb, The Golden Bible, or, The Book of Mormon: Is It From God? (New
York: Ward & Drummond, 1887), 304.

39 Charles A. Shook, Cumorah Revisited... (Cincinnati: The Standard
Publishing Company, 1910), 382-383.

40 William Edward Biederwolf, Mormonism Under the Searchlight (Grand Rapids,
Michigan: Eerdmans, 1947).

41 Gordon Fraser, What Does the Book of Mormon Teach? An Examination of the
Historical and Scientific Statements of the Book of Mormon (Chicago: Moody
Press, 1964), 90.

42 Gordon Fraser, Is Mormonism Christian? (Chicago: Moody Press, 1977), 141.

43 Latayne Colvett Scott, The Mormon Mirage: A Former Mormon Tells Why She
Left the Church (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan, 1979), 82.

44 Rick Branch, "Nephite Nickels." The Utah Evangel 29/10 (October 1982): 1.

45 Daniel B. Adams, "Last Ditch Archaeology," Science 83 (December 1983):
32.

46 V.L. Bohrer, "Domesticated and Wild Crops in the CAEP Study Area," in
P.M. Spoerl and G.J. Gumerman, eds., Prehistoric Cultural Development in
Central Arizona: Archaeology of the Upper New River Region (Southern
Illinois University at Carbondale Center for Archaeological Investigations,
Occasional paper 5, 1984): 252.

47 Nancy and David Asch, "Archaeobotany," Deer Track: A Late Woodland
Village in the Mississippi Valley, edited by Charles R. McGimsey and Michael
D. Conner (Kampsville, Illinois: Center for American Archaeology, 1985), 44.

http://www.fairlds.org/pubs/conf/2001RopM.html

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus

www.lds.org
.

"Al Bundy" <MSfortune@mcpmail.com> wrote in message
news:d2c86d32-a063-4013-8724-abdcafe5cb6c@e6g2000prf.googlegroups.com...

small giant wrote:

Pile it as high as you want. It's still BS.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 6:29 am
From: "Stormin Mormon"

THE ARTICLES
OF FAITH.

In the spring of 1842, the Prophet Joseph Smith sent a letter to John
Wentworth, who was editor of a newspaper called the Chicago Democrat. This
letter contained an account of many of the events of early Church history.
The document also contained thirteen statements outlining Latter-day Saint
beliefs. These have come to be known as the Articles of Faith, which are
given below.

The Articles of Faith are official doctrine of the Church and have been
canonized as a part of latter-day scripture. They are clear statements of
belief that help members understand the basic beliefs of the Church and
explain these beliefs to others. They are not, however, a complete summary
of Church doctrine. Through living prophets, the Church is guided by
continuous revelation and inspiration.

1. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and
in the Holy Ghost.

2. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for
Adam's transgression.

3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be
saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

4. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are:
first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by
immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift
of the Holy Ghost.

5. We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the
laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and
administer in the ordinances thereof.

6. We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church,
namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.

7. We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions,
healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.

8. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated
correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

9. We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we
believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining
to the Kingdom of God.

10. We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of
the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the
American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and,
that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.

11. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the
dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let
them worship how, where, or what they may.

12. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and
magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

13. We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in
doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of
Paul--We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many
things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything
virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these
things.

Joseph Smith.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: -►GUIDE to Make MILLIONS Online with ZERO Investment
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/86ddec477b698fe2?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 6:41 am
From: Anni J

Discover How to Work From Home Successfully

Creating a successful online business is dependant on your
circumstances, read more..

http://onlinedollar4all.blogspot.com/

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Walmart Nothern VA - Wii
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/cadc8cd3f533d8a1?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 6:42 am
From: "rox"

"Mike" <yard22192@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:69681128-84bc-4f23-b7eb-19263820e9e6@p43g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
> Anyone know if Walmart will sell Wii? I went to the Walmart in
> Woodbridge by Potomac Mills Mall and 4 Walmart employees said they
> don't know. Plus they won't credit my son's Wii console gift card.
> Thanks
> Mike

If the employees don't know, and can't credit your gift card you should call
the Walmart home office. I'm sure you can google that. Many people calling
themselves "store managers" really aren't in charge of anything larger than
the shift they work.

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Frugal Living

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Monday, February 18, 2008

25 new messages in 12 topics - digest

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