Frugal Living: Feb 17, 2008

Sunday, February 17, 2008

25 new messages in 9 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: when does the tripling of grain prices "hit the fan"?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/b7ba2eeecb9059a7?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 2:10 pm
From: don@manx.misty.com (Don Klipstein)

In <slrnfrh47d.pm5.don@manx.misty.com>, I, Don Klipstein wrote:

> Wheat recently hit a high of $10.93 per bushel for March delivery:
>
>http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080208/usda_wheat_commodities_wrap.html?.v=1
>
> A bushel of weight is 60 pounds of wheat.
>
>http://www.cyberspaceag.com/kansascrops/whatsinabushel.htm
>
> So wheat costs about 18 cents per pound. The wheat in a $2-plus 22-ounce
>loaf of bread costs about 25 cents at the latest high prices of wheat.

Make that less than 25 cents - bread is roughly half water, much of it
added.

- Don Klipstein (don@misty.com)

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 6:03 pm
From: "catalpa"

"rick++" <rick303@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:9eea2763-200d-4e2b-81e6-1ebb50558a37@e60g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> Wheat and corn prices have quadrupled in the past two years
> due to ethanol and international grain demand.
> I read a sad Denver news story about hobby horse owners
> having to put down their animals because monthly feed
> costs have trebled. They could board a horse at $500 a
> month but not $1500.
> I havent seen this passed through bakeries like the 1979-1980
> jump, but I guess its coming.

Your data is wrong. Corn had doubled going from $2.50 to $5.00 and wheat has
more than tripled going from $3.10 to $10.50. The higher prices will cause
record levels of planting in 2008.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: How many therms (natural gas) do you use per day (per month)?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/99d004d38152f87d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 2:21 pm
From: Rick Blaine

CJT <abujlehc@prodigy.net> wrote:

>
>Do they ever actually meter therms, or measure ccf and convert?
>It seems to me to actually measure the therms, they'd need to
>continuously monitor the heating value of the gas being delivered,
>and that seems quite difficult compared with just measuring cf.
>Of course, assuming they've stripped the gas down to nearly pure
>methane, the conversion is easy, but natural gas can vary according
>to ethane and higher content.

They do here... Meter reading is by CCF, then a conversion factor applied to get
therm, multiplied by the rate per therm. The factor changes slightly every
month...

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/e565eaf98e0e70b6?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 12 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 2:28 pm
From: "hallerb@aol.com"

if the OPs home is galavanized its time for them to buy a PEX tool to
replace their plumbing, PEX is cheap and super easy to work
with.........

== 2 of 12 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 3:25 pm
From: "James Sweet"

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
message news:e5Qtj.662$tW.403@nlpi070.nbdc.sbc.com...
> On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 15:10:03 -0800 (PST), hallerb@aol.com wrote:
>> add be prepared to replace drain valve, which may not shut or drip
>> when closed, espically the plastic ones. some valves will clog replace
>> tank drain valve with a ball valve at new tank install time
>
> Thank you for all the advice!
> You've given us the courage to tackle this ourselves!
> Bill and I read *every* post here!
>
> To replace our dripping 40-gallon (65-gallon FHR) home water heater, we
> bought the best water heater I could find.
>
> This turned out to be the $450 Sears #33154 (actually manufactured by AO
> Smith) 97-gallon First Hour Rating (FHR) and 0.63 Energy Factor (EF),
> nominally with a 50-gallon tank and coming with a (rather useless) 12-year
> warranty on parts and a slightly useful 1-year warranty on labor.
>
> We're going to do the job tomorrow so I'm reading *everything* I can find
> on the net on how to properly remove and install a natural gas home hot
> water heater. I'll summarize the steps we plan on taking in a subsequent
> posting.
>
> So far, Bill bought $686.47 in parts while I write up every step for him
> before we do the work tomorrow, together. He will return any unused parts,
> but here is what he bought from Sears today to get ready for the job.
>
> $449.00 Sears #33154 50-gallon 12/1 year hot water heater 97FHR .63EF
> $ 2.19 1-ounce TFE paste (for the gas pipe fittings)
> $ 9.59 3/4-inch quarter-turn water valve (replaces plastic drain valve)
> $ 8.99 3/4-inch CSA gas ball valve (for the gas line)
> $ 15.99 3/4-inch swing check valve (for additional heat-loss protection)
> $ 7.99 18" 3/4-inch by 3/4 inch FIP corrugated copper/brass flex pipe
> (x2)
> $ 7.49 15" 3/4-inch by 3/4 inch FIP corrugated copper/brass flex pipe
> (x2)
> $ 5.99 12" 3/4-inch by 3/4 inch FIP corrugated copper/brass flex pipe
> (x2)
> $ 12.99 18" 3/4-inch stainless-steel water-heater connector pipe (x2)
> $ 10.99 12" 3/4-inch stainless-steel water-heater connector pipe (x2)
> $ 8.99 3/4-inch by 3/4-inch Dialectric Union B (x4)
> $ 3.59 1.5-inch long 3/4-inch male:male brass pipe nipples (x4)
> $ 2.39 1.0-inch long 3/4-inch male:male brass pipe nipples (x3)
> $ 52.32 sales tax at 8.25%
> --------
> $686.47 total
>
> The reason for *both* the copper flex pipe and stainless steel pipe is
> because the stainless steel might allow us to not need the dialectric
> unions which are huge. Remember, the new tank is five inches taller than
> the old tank so we are going to have problems with the plumbing most
> likely
> so having fewer nipples and dialectric unions will shorten the lines a
> bit.
>
> Do we really need to isolate the copper from the brass from the steel?
> We assume so.
>
> Also, we bought the extra one-way check valve even though the water heater
> apparently comes with heat-loss protectors and we can s-kink the flex
> lines
> (not the steel lines, just the copper lines).
>
> Do you think the one-way hot-water-outlet check valve will work to slow
> heat loss?
>
> Note we didn't buy the insulating blanket for the water heater, nor the
> insulation for the hot-water pipes yet. We figured we could do that later.
>
> Our biggest question is whether we really needed the dialectric unions.
> Since they were female:female, that necessitated brass nipples on each
> side, further lengthening the lines which we need to shorten.
>
> What do you think?
> Donna & Bill

It would be worthwhile to check the local plumbing codes, there's a national
code, but additional requirements vary by location.

Assuming the original heater was properly installed, you should be fine to
do the new one exactly the same way. 3/4" seems awfully large for a water
heater, all those I've dealt with were plumbed with 1/2" gas pipe and 3/4"
water pipe. I'm not sure why the ball valve for the gas is being replaced as
well, isn't there already a suitable shutoff valve? If you mess with the gas
plumbing ahead of the shutoff, you have to pressure test it and have it
inspected. Assuming the original plumbing is not damaged, I would leave the
ball valve and everything ahead (closer to the gas meter) of it alone. Take
care to hold the pipe so that it doesn't rotate and cause leaks at the
joints when you disconnect it from the valve. Replace the flexible pipe
between the heater and gas pipe in the house, you may or may not have to
rearange the pipe from the heater to the flex depending on the location.

I can't speak for your area, but here the standard setup is black iron pipe
in the house, with a 1/2" branch split off for the water heater. This goes
directly to a ball valve to shut off the gas to that appliance, and out of
that is a short length of black iron joining to a stainless flex which then
connects to another short piece of black iron, occasionally with an elbow or
two to change direction and connect up to the gas valve on the heater. Older
houses often lack the stainless flex and instead do the whole thing with
black iron using a ground joint union between the ball valve and the heater
to let you put it all together, but I like the flex better, it's a lot
easier to get things lined up.

When you do the flue vent, sometimes it goes straight up through the roof,
in that case you'll probably have to get up on top and remove a screw or two
through the roof jack to allow you to push the pipe up through the ceiling
to let you slide the heaters in and out. If it goes off at an angle and tees
into the furnace flue or goes through a wall, you can usually flex it enough
to work. Take extra care to get the vent right, a gas leak you'll smell, a
water leak you'll see, but an exhaust leak will just kill you.

As for insulation, often the water heater will come with some sections of
pipe insulation to take care of the flex lines in and out of it.

== 3 of 12 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 3:28 pm
From: "James Sweet"

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
message news:iG_tj.830$pl4.586@newssvr22.news.prodigy.net...
> On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 11:37:36 -0600, msg wrote:
>> Are you planning on posting your photos and tutorial?
>> What would be the URL?
>
> I don't know.
>
> Last time I got help here was for the hot air furnace which needed to be
> taken apart and cleaned because the limit kept kicking in.
> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.home.repair/browse_thread/thread/94746b0668e8b6e5/41f1c7f208260970?lnk=gst&q=furnace+cleaned+donna+photo+posted#41f1c7f208260970
>
> I posted *those* clogged-furnace pictures here
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/23329283@N07/
>
> But nobody seemed to care so I wasn't sure whether it would help or not to
> post my pictures of a mundane (to you guys!) hot water heater replacement
> job.
>
> Donna

Wow, that's a nasty filthy clogged up evaporator. I bet your A/C bill was a
lot lower after cleaning that as well, and it probably kept the house a lot
cooler.

== 4 of 12 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 3:29 pm
From: "James Sweet"

>
> This is much like what a software engineer does when writing routine or
> complex software, is it not?
>

Very much so, the good ones anyway.

== 5 of 12 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 3:33 pm
From: "James Sweet"

>
> I was wondering why some hot water heater repair guides said to use Teflon
> tape (TPFE?) on the water lines but pipe dope (TPE?) on the gas lines yet
> the tube that I bought says it works for both gas and water. That's
> confusing. I was careful to only state in my hot water heater step by step
> guide just what I had read in other guides, taking the best except where
> they conflicted.
>

It's mostly a matter of preference. When using teflon tape, there's yellow
stuff rated for fuel use which is what you should use on gas lines, or you
can use pipe dope. A book I have on plumbing which is written by a long time
plumber recommends using both, and indeed I've started doing that on gas
lines and have yet to have a leak. Put on a thin coat of pipe dope, wrap a
couple layers of teflon tape tightly, then brush a little pipe dope over
that and screw it in. Make sure the tape stays on the threads and doesn't
scrunch back when you thread it in, and screw it down tight enough but not
too tight, I know that's probably not very helpful but I don't know how to
describe it. Use a pipe wrench, they're cheap. I use a pair of vice grip
pliars to hold the existing pipe so I don't unscrew it while unscrewing
fittings from that.

== 6 of 12 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 3:56 pm
From: trader4@optonline.net

On Feb 17, 10:52 am, "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"
<donna....@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 05:44:55 -0800 (PST), trad...@optonline.net wrote:
> > I don't know why you continue to dismiss a 12 year warranty on the
> > water heater as useless. You seem to be saying that because that is
> > about the typical life of a water heater, that the warranty is of no
> > value. Yet you value a 1 year warranty on labor?
>
> Hi Trader,
>
> Thanks for keeping up on this. Maybe I'm wrong on the warrantee but I took
> logic in college and the warrantee seems like a useless marketing tool to
> me when I read through what I have to do in order to "make good" on it.
>
> It's hard for me to write this reply because I feel the warranty is only an
> advertising gimmick which, to me, is only useful for the first year, mainly
> because I'm never going to take the water heater apart and bring it to the
> store to obtain the "free" replacement after the first year

You don't have to take the water heater anywhere. As I said, when my
State had the thermocouple fail, all I did was call State up. They
looked it up on their database, determined it was under warranty, and
I had a replacement on my doorstep in 2 days. No charge, no sending
parts back.

Now, I don't know exactly how they handle the case where you have a
leaking water heater. Perhaps they have a local rep or dealer take a
look at it. But I'm sure they don't want you shipping the water
heater back to them.

- and - the
> alternative is to pay as much for the labor as the entire water heater cost
> in the first place - so the "free" replacement costs just as much as the
> original parts if I have a plumber come to me to inspect, diagnose, and
> replace it.

If the water heater fails, then you need a new one, don't you?
Without the warranty, you're out not only the labor, but also the cost
of buying a new water heater, which is ~$400.

The warrantee seems absolutely useless to me, after the first
> year given those realistic concerns.

It fails in year seven. With a 10 year warranty, you get a either
free parts or a new tank. Without it, you get zippos and the labor is
the same.

>
> Worse than that, I read the entire text of the Sears "12-year limited
> warranty" which intimates Sears will replace parts that are defective and
> the water heater itself *only* if it develops a leak (no other replacement
> is warranted).

Well, what did you expect? That sounds perfectly reasonable to me.
If the thermocouple, valve, burner assembly, etc go, you get those
parts. If the tank goes, you get a whole new unit.

>
> > installing it yourself, there is no labor anyway,
> > so why is that even an issue?
>
> This is the ENTIRE issue! If I have to remove the entire water heater in
> order to bring it to the store just to see if they'll warrant the parts or
> the leaking tank, that's absolutely crazy!

Who said you have to bring it to the store?

Do people really remove their
> water heater, truck it in the back of their car to the store, have someone
> at the store look at it and decide whether or not to replace the parts,
> then, if they decide not to, you truck it back home and re-install it? Or,
> if they decide to replace the parts, they hand you the new parts and you
> truck the whole drippy thing back home to re-install it? I think not.

If you read my previous post, I told you exactly how State handled my
warranty claim.

>
> If I need to make good on the warrantee, the only way I'll ever do it is to
> call a Sears plumber at 800-469-4663 who will likely charge me as much for
> the visit as the thing cost in the first place. Sure, I'll get a new water
> heater - and it will cost me exactly what it cost when I bought it
> considering I MUST use their labor. I have no choice this second time
> around.

Does anything in the warranty say you have to use a Sears plumber?
My State warranty had no reqt as to who had to make the repair. I
made the repair myself and State had no problem simply supplying the
parts.

>
> My whole point is the automobile analogy you provided is exactly opposite
> of reality! You can easily DRIVE the car to the dealership to get a part
> diagnosed and fixed but to drive your water heater to the Sears store would
> be ludicrous (for me).

I didn't drive mine anywhere.

>
> Do you see why the automobile analogy doesn't apply for a water heater?
> Bringing the water heater to the dealer isn't an option.
> To bring the dealer to the water heater costs as much as the water heater.
> It's that simple to me.

Even if it were true that you had to bring the water heater back to
where you bought it, your statement still wouldn't be true. Let's
see. Water heater is spewing water from a shot tank. It's under
warranty. Either way it has to be removed. Once it's out, under your
scenario, you could take it back to where you bought it and get a new
one for free. How does it cost $400 to take it back? Or you could
go buy a new one for $400 and then do what with the old one? Many
places you have to take it somewhere anyway to get rid of it. If
you're getting a new one, it seems you could certainly take the old
one back to the store. But I don't think this is a realistic
scenario. They aren't going to expect you to drag the old one to
them and they don't want it.

>
> Donna

== 7 of 12 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 4:16 pm
From: "hallerb@aol.com"

i was selling a home and the jerk home inspector failed the brand new
hot water tanks gas valve, and required it be installed by a licensed
plumber.

the tanks manufacturer sent out a whole new controller within 2 days.

the plumber reported no leak on the original one, just a home
inspector wanting to justify his fee.

plumber who i know said that sort of thing is common

== 8 of 12 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 4:22 pm
From: Nate Nagel

hallerb@aol.com wrote:
> i was selling a home and the jerk home inspector failed the brand new
> hot water tanks gas valve, and required it be installed by a licensed
> plumber.
>
> the tanks manufacturer sent out a whole new controller within 2 days.
>
> the plumber reported no leak on the original one, just a home
> inspector wanting to justify his fee.
>
> plumber who i know said that sort of thing is common
>

I guess I must be lucky, the guy that did our home inspection was very
nice and the only thing I can fault him on is the stuff he missed, and
all of the stuff he missed he couldn't have seen without removing cover
plates, moving ceiling tiles, etc. which he probably couldn't have done.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

== 9 of 12 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 4:36 pm
From: clams_casino

Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator wrote:

>On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 11:04:53 -0500, clams_casino wrote:
>On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 11:04:53 -0500, clams_casino wrote:
>
>
>>Do get it right. A family recently died of carbon monoxide poisoning
>>
>>
>
>Hi clams,
>
>We *are* doing it right. That's why I'm here in the first place. To get it
>right. I do appreciate the help. From everyone. And, I'll give back by
>posting the tutorial for others like us to follow.
>
>In fact, we feel we're possibly doing it *better* than a plumber might, at
>least in terms of raw material. It seems to us (unsubstantiated opinion)
>that a plumber might tend to maximize his *time* and not necessarily the
>quality of the materials - unless specifically asked to by the homeowner
>(who must correspondingly be willing to pay for the extra parts cost and
>labor).
>
>Bill is in his final shower as we speak. The gas is off.
>
>He can sing in that steaming hot shower for as long as he likes and, for
>once, I won't be on his back about wasting the hot water!
>
>Donna
>
>

This has been a very informative thread. I didn't appreciate that our
15-year old water heater (61 gallon - State / 0.55 ER) is likely on
borrowed time. The first one in our home was replaced after just 8
years (previous owner). As someone pointed out, now is probably a good
time to start researching a replacement.

== 10 of 12 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 5:54 pm
From: "hallerb@aol.com"

On Feb 17, 7:36�pm, clams_casino <PeterGrif...@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:
> Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 11:04:53 -0500, clams_casino wrote:
> >On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 11:04:53 -0500, clams_casino wrote:
>
> >>Do get it right. � A family recently died of carbon monoxide poisoning
>
> >Hi clams,
>
> >We *are* doing it right. That's why I'm here in the first place. To get it
> >right. I do appreciate the help. From everyone. And, I'll give back by
> >posting the tutorial for others like us to follow.
>
> >In fact, we feel we're possibly doing it *better* than a plumber might, at
> >least in terms of raw material. It seems to us (unsubstantiated opinion)
> >that a plumber might tend to maximize his *time* and not necessarily the
> >quality of the materials - unless specifically asked to by the homeowner
> >(who must correspondingly be willing to pay for the extra parts cost and
> >labor).
>
> >Bill is in his final shower as we speak. The gas is off.
>
> >He can sing in that steaming hot shower for as long as he likes and, for
> >once, I won't be on his back about wasting the hot water!
>
> >Donna
>
> This has been a very informative thread. � I didn't appreciate that our
> 15-year old water heater (61 gallon - State / 0.55 ER) is likely on
> borrowed time. � The first one in our home was replaced after just 8
> years (previous owner). � As someone pointed out, now is probably a good
> time to start researching a replacement.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

i take a different view, after having one start leaking with house
guests coming right before christmas.

i replace mine at the time of my choosing, on my schedule.

peace of mind and lack of hassles plus no worry about water leak
damage, and can shop around for best deal, and get better efficency
from new tank and i went larger with a high output tank.

do you wait for everything you own to totally quit before replacing?

hot water tanks are low cost.

my current one is 7 years old. its on borrowed time

== 11 of 12 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 6:16 pm
From: clams_casino

hallerb@aol.com wrote:

>On Feb 17, 7:36�pm, clams_casino <PeterGrif...@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 11:04:53 -0500, clams_casino wrote:
>>>On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 11:04:53 -0500, clams_casino wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Do get it right. � A family recently died of carbon monoxide poisoning
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Hi clams,
>>>
>>>
>>>We *are* doing it right. That's why I'm here in the first place. To get it
>>>right. I do appreciate the help. From everyone. And, I'll give back by
>>>posting the tutorial for others like us to follow.
>>>
>>>
>>>In fact, we feel we're possibly doing it *better* than a plumber might, at
>>>least in terms of raw material. It seems to us (unsubstantiated opinion)
>>>that a plumber might tend to maximize his *time* and not necessarily the
>>>quality of the materials - unless specifically asked to by the homeowner
>>>(who must correspondingly be willing to pay for the extra parts cost and
>>>labor).
>>>
>>>
>>>Bill is in his final shower as we speak. The gas is off.
>>>
>>>
>>>He can sing in that steaming hot shower for as long as he likes and, for
>>>once, I won't be on his back about wasting the hot water!
>>>
>>>
>>>Donna
>>>
>>>
>>This has been a very informative thread. � I didn't appreciate that our
>>15-year old water heater (61 gallon - State / 0.55 ER) is likely on
>>borrowed time. � The first one in our home was replaced after just 8
>>years (previous owner). � As someone pointed out, now is probably a good
>>time to start researching a replacement.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>>- Show quoted text -
>>
>>
>
>i take a different view, after having one start leaking with house
>guests coming right before christmas.
>
>i replace mine at the time of my choosing, on my schedule.
>
>peace of mind and lack of hassles plus no worry about water leak
>damage, and can shop around for best deal, and get better efficency
>from new tank and i went larger with a high output tank.
>
>do you wait for everything you own to totally quit before replacing?
>
>
>
Generally speaking, yes. I tend to drive cars until they get to the
point (providing regular maintenance) of requiring significant repairs
(as a second car, always maintaining a good first car).

I don't expect to replace appliances (vacuum cleaner, dish washer,
stove, refrigerator, washer, dryer, toaster, etc) until they are in
need of repair. It's at that point when I typically determine if its
cost effective to replace or repair (typically it's best to toss at that
point). I also wait for light bulbs to burn out, etc. My three lawn
mowers each last about 15 years... till they died.

What other items do you replace on a regular basis?

== 12 of 12 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 6:35 pm
From: jim

On Feb 17, 11:24 am, "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"
<donna....@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 10:52:25 -0600, Vic Smith wrote:
> > I've never used flex on a hot water heater, but suppose that flex
> > connectors have the di-electric insulator built in. Should be some
> > specs attached to that type of connector.
>
> Hi Vic,
>
> There is a black rubber grommet inside the copper flex tube's brass
> fittings. Maybe that's the dialectric; but it's tremendously smaller than
> the fist-sized dialectric unions we bought yesterday.
>
> Donna

If your pipes are galvanized you don't need di-electric fittings
Right and you are who certianaly not a plumber just a Mike Holmes
wannabe, if you conect copper to galvenized you better use them but
then Iam only a master plumber so what would I know

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Dolce and Gabbana Handbag Find Sale Prices on Dolce and Gabbana
Handbags
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/1df1d3a4b660733d?hl=en
==============================================================================

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25 new messages in 11 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Stamps to Cost a Penny More
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/729cf5df8392523c?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 10:03 am
From: "rick++"

Youd have to have extradinary low inventory and sales costs
to make a profit at 2.3% margin. Each of the Ebay commission,
inflation and cost of funds is higher than this.

Most merchants look for 30-50% margin.

== 1 of 8 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 9:04 am
From: "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"

On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 11:37:36 -0600, msg wrote:
> Are you planning on posting your photos and tutorial?
> What would be the URL?

I don't know.

Last time I got help here was for the hot air furnace which needed to be
taken apart and cleaned because the limit kept kicking in.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.home.repair/browse_thread/thread/94746b0668e8b6e5/41f1c7f208260970?lnk=gst&q=furnace+cleaned+donna+photo+posted#41f1c7f208260970

I posted *those* clogged-furnace pictures here
http://www.flickr.com/photos/23329283@N07/

But nobody seemed to care so I wasn't sure whether it would help or not to
post my pictures of a mundane (to you guys!) hot water heater replacement
job.

Donna

== 2 of 8 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 11:33 am
From: "Bob M."

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
message news:e5Qtj.662$tW.403@nlpi070.nbdc.sbc.com...

>
> Also, we bought the extra one-way check valve even though the water heater
> apparently comes with heat-loss protectors and we can s-kink the flex
> lines
> (not the steel lines, just the copper lines).
>
> Do you think the one-way hot-water-outlet check valve will work to slow
> heat loss?

For a year or two, probably. Does it have a rubber flap in it or is it a
real check valve? If it's a check valve, don't use it. They rattle after
some time. (i'd question the rubber flap kind too; they'd get stuck in the
'outflow' direction eventually)

If you want it to work forever, make your own. Make a loop out of the
flexible copper line or solder one out of rigid copper. You'll find out
that flexible copper isn't very flexible. I did the latter, the side that
goes up from the tank is hot, the side that comes back down is cold after
it's been sitting for a while. Mine's 12" from top to bottom, 6" is probably
ok. No ball to rattle, will work until the laws of physics are repealed.

>
> Note we didn't buy the insulating blanket for the water heater, nor the
> insulation for the hot-water pipes yet. We figured we could do that later.

If you put in a proper heat trap as described above, insulated pipes are
unnecessary.

>
> Our biggest question is whether we really needed the dialectric unions.
> Since they were female:female, that necessitated brass nipples on each
> side, further lengthening the lines which we need to shorten.

You'll need the unions.

== 3 of 8 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 11:36 am
From: "Bob M."

"Vic Smith" <thismailautodeleted@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:mpcgr353o2tda05vk17hsn3975aptt4dqb@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 16 Feb 2008 22:07:56 -0700, "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer
> Coordinator" <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> <snipped instructions for heater replacement>
>
> If your pipes are galvanized you don't need di-electric fittings.

Don't use galvanized pipe; it rusts from the inside out after a few decades.
Use copper.

== 4 of 8 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 11:40 am
From: "Edwin Pawlowski"

"Bob M." <no@nospam.com> wrote in message
>
> For a year or two, probably. Does it have a rubber flap in it or is it a
> real check valve? If it's a check valve, don't use it. They rattle after
> some time. (i'd question the rubber flap kind too; they'd get stuck in
> the 'outflow' direction eventually)

Another point about check valves. Some are swing checks that must be mounted
horizontal. Spring checks can go vertical. Personally, I'd not use one

== 5 of 8 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 11:40 am
From: Nate Nagel

Bob M. wrote:
> "Vic Smith" <thismailautodeleted@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:mpcgr353o2tda05vk17hsn3975aptt4dqb@4ax.com...
>
>> On Sat, 16 Feb 2008 22:07:56 -0700, "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer
>> Coordinator" <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> <snipped instructions for heater replacement>
>>
>> If your pipes are galvanized you don't need di-electric fittings.
>
>
> Don't use galvanized pipe; it rusts from the inside out after a few
> decades. Use copper.

I agree, the OP is talking about a retrofit of a water heater in a house
that already has galv. water pipes. They probably ought to be replaced
with copper at some point, but one job at a time :)

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

== 6 of 8 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 11:46 am
From: "Bob M."

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
message news:klZtj.970$Mh2.908@nlpi069.nbdc.sbc.com...
> On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 06:19:34 -0500, Nate Nagel wrote:
>> the nipples on the top of your new heater should already be dielectric,
>> so adding a dielectric at the end of your water pipes would only protect
>> the copper flex.
>
> Hi Nate,
> That dialectric stuff confuses me to no end.

Dielectric unions are needed to prevent reactions between dissimilar metals,
causing leaks years from now. This is why copper hanger brackets or straps
should be used with copper pipe.

Sometimes though, unions are used simply to facilitate future disassembly;
no desoldering required, just a big wrench.

== 7 of 8 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 12:58 pm
From: Jerry Peters

In sci.electronics.repair Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 15:10:03 -0800 (PST), hallerb@aol.com wrote:
>> add be prepared to replace drain valve, which may not shut or drip
>> when closed, espically the plastic ones. some valves will clog replace
>> tank drain valve with a ball valve at new tank install time
>
> Thank you for all the advice!
> You've given us the courage to tackle this ourselves!
> Bill and I read *every* post here!
>
> To replace our dripping 40-gallon (65-gallon FHR) home water heater, we
> bought the best water heater I could find.
>
> This turned out to be the $450 Sears #33154 (actually manufactured by AO
> Smith) 97-gallon First Hour Rating (FHR) and 0.63 Energy Factor (EF),
> nominally with a 50-gallon tank and coming with a (rather useless) 12-year
> warranty on parts and a slightly useful 1-year warranty on labor.
>
> We're going to do the job tomorrow so I'm reading *everything* I can find
> on the net on how to properly remove and install a natural gas home hot
> water heater. I'll summarize the steps we plan on taking in a subsequent
> posting.
>
> So far, Bill bought $686.47 in parts while I write up every step for him
> before we do the work tomorrow, together. He will return any unused parts,
> but here is what he bought from Sears today to get ready for the job.
>
> $449.00 Sears #33154 50-gallon 12/1 year hot water heater 97FHR .63EF
> $ 2.19 1-ounce TFE paste (for the gas pipe fittings)
> $ 9.59 3/4-inch quarter-turn water valve (replaces plastic drain valve)
> $ 8.99 3/4-inch CSA gas ball valve (for the gas line)
> $ 15.99 3/4-inch swing check valve (for additional heat-loss protection)
> $ 7.99 18" 3/4-inch by 3/4 inch FIP corrugated copper/brass flex pipe (x2)
> $ 7.49 15" 3/4-inch by 3/4 inch FIP corrugated copper/brass flex pipe (x2)
> $ 5.99 12" 3/4-inch by 3/4 inch FIP corrugated copper/brass flex pipe (x2)
> $ 12.99 18" 3/4-inch stainless-steel water-heater connector pipe (x2)
> $ 10.99 12" 3/4-inch stainless-steel water-heater connector pipe (x2)
> $ 8.99 3/4-inch by 3/4-inch Dialectric Union B (x4)
> $ 3.59 1.5-inch long 3/4-inch male:male brass pipe nipples (x4)
> $ 2.39 1.0-inch long 3/4-inch male:male brass pipe nipples (x3)
> $ 52.32 sales tax at 8.25%
> --------
> $686.47 total
>
> The reason for *both* the copper flex pipe and stainless steel pipe is
> because the stainless steel might allow us to not need the dialectric
> unions which are huge. Remember, the new tank is five inches taller than
> the old tank so we are going to have problems with the plumbing most likely
> so having fewer nipples and dialectric unions will shorten the lines a bit.
>
> Do we really need to isolate the copper from the brass from the steel?
> We assume so.

The flexible water-heater connection lines should already have an
insulator/gasket at each coupling.

I've never been thrilled using dialectric unions, after being inplace
a few months the galvanized section was corroded internally. I use
flex corrugated copper and dialectric nipples, galvanized steel with
a plastic liner, between the tank and the flex lines.

Copper or brass from steel. Most plumbing components like valves are
brass and can be directly connected to copper.

Jerry
>
> Also, we bought the extra one-way check valve even though the water heater
> apparently comes with heat-loss protectors and we can s-kink the flex lines
> (not the steel lines, just the copper lines).
>
> Do you think the one-way hot-water-outlet check valve will work to slow
> heat loss?
>
> Note we didn't buy the insulating blanket for the water heater, nor the
> insulation for the hot-water pipes yet. We figured we could do that later.
>
> Our biggest question is whether we really needed the dialectric unions.
> Since they were female:female, that necessitated brass nipples on each
> side, further lengthening the lines which we need to shorten.
>
> What do you think?
> Donna & Bill

== 8 of 8 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 1:57 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 10:59:36 -0600, msg wrote:
>> odd that such detail would be accorded to a routine task.
>> Donna, what is your employment or educational background?
>
> Hi msg,
>
> I retired from a career in public-school teaching two years ago.
>
> At one point, I taught very young autistic and aspergers children; we
> found the best therapy for their social disability was to break down
> even the most mundane of tasks into their every component.
>
> By behavioral modification, the children could perform the behavior on
> their own, outside the classroom.
>
> This is much like what a software engineer does when writing routine
> or complex software, is it not?

Nope.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Was my home purchase in 2006 frugal?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/9d0f58de213b13b6?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 10:06 am
From: "rick++"

> The rule of thumb is that your house should rent for 1% of its
> purchase price.

That rule was in the era of 8% mortgages 1980 - 2002.
It can be lower now since money has been 5-6% most of this decade.

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 11:53 am
From: Ron Peterson

On Feb 17, 10:11 am, clams_casino <PeterGrif...@DrunkinClam.com>
wrote:
> Ron Peterson wrote:

> >The way I see it is that you need to spend about 6% interest expense,
> >2% depreciation, 1% maintenance, 2% taxes, and 1% for realtor expense
> >giving a total 12% per year cost for the value of the house.

> Why the 2% depreciation if you include the maintenance.? Homes (in
> most locations) tend to appreciate, not depreciate (over the long haul).

The 2% depreciation is relative to the cost of new construction. It
usually costs more to remodel an old home to the standards of a new
house than to build a new hoouse from scratch.

Usually as a house ages, maintenance costs go up and it will
eventually pay to tear the house and build a new one.

> Furthermore, a significant portion of the taxes & interest are usually
> offset by tax deductions.

I am just trying to illustrate what is a reasonable amount to spend
for housing. YMMV depending on your financial conditions and location.

--
Ron

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 12:59 pm
From: "John Weiss"

"Joe" <joe5345@gmail.com> wrote...
>I just read this article detailing how home prices in the Northeast
> dropped 4.8% from 2006-2007. I purchased my home in Aug 2006 and knew
> prices were going to drop but our situation left me very little choice
> so I justified my purchase at the time thinking the worst case
> scenario is that my house value will drop around 5% a year, well it
> did, but I still figure that I'm ahead of the game considering 5% of
> my purchase price is still less than I would have paid in rent for
> 2007. That money would have been thrown away never to be seen again
> anyway. Now I know I am still on the hook for taxes and upkeep of the
> house but my quality of life is drastically different than living in
> an apartment so I consider that expense a wash. Am I wrong in
> justifying my purchase this way?

You haven't "lost' anything. You won't "lose" anything unless you sell the
house for less than the purchase price.

If you plan on staying in the house a while, you're likely to regain any
temporary paper loss.

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 10:11 am
From: "rick++"

Wheat and corn prices have quadrupled in the past two years
due to ethanol and international grain demand.
I read a sad Denver news story about hobby horse owners
having to put down their animals because monthly feed
costs have trebled. They could board a horse at $500 a
month but not $1500.
I havent seen this passed through bakeries like the 1979-1980
jump, but I guess its coming.

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 11:54 am
From: don@manx.misty.com (Don Klipstein)

In <9eea2763-200d-4e2b-81e6-1ebb50558a37@e60g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
rick++ wrote:

>Wheat and corn prices have quadrupled in the past two years
>due to ethanol and international grain demand.
>I read a sad Denver news story about hobby horse owners
>having to put down their animals because monthly feed
>costs have trebled. They could board a horse at $500 a
>month but not $1500.
>I havent seen this passed through bakeries like the 1979-1980
>jump, but I guess its coming.

Wheat recently hit a high of $10.93 per bushel for March delivery:

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080208/usda_wheat_commodities_wrap.html?.v=1

A bushel of weight is 60 pounds of wheat.

http://www.cyberspaceag.com/kansascrops/whatsinabushel.htm

So wheat costs about 18 cents per pound. The wheat in a $2-plus
22-ounce loaf of bread costs about 25 cents at the latest high prices of
wheat.

- Don Klipstein (don@misty.com)

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 1:48 pm
From: Al Bundy

On Feb 17, 1:11 pm, "rick++" <rick...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Wheat and corn prices have quadrupled in the past two years
> due to ethanol and international grain demand.
> I read a sad Denver news story about hobby horse owners
> having to put down their animals because monthly feed
> costs have trebled. They could board a horse at $500 a
> month but not $1500.
> I havent seen this passed through bakeries like the 1979-1980
> jump, but I guess its coming.

So perhaps the cost of horse meat will be going down. It all evens out.

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 1:48 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

rick++ <rick303@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Wheat and corn prices have quadrupled in the past two years

Pig ignorant lie.

> due to ethanol and international grain demand.

The same reason that prices always vary.

> I read a sad Denver news story about hobby horse owners having
> to put down their animals because monthly feed costs have trebled.

And you were actually stupid enough to believe it.
You dont have to feed horses on grain, stupid.

> They could board a horse at $500 a month but not $1500.

> I havent seen this passed through bakeries like
> the 1979-1980 jump, but I guess its coming.

Nope, because the drought that has produced the main hike wont last long enough.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Que: Grits Instant or Quick?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/74702e56ec43a313?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 11:23 am
From: "Evelyn C. Leeper"

clams_casino wrote:
> >=Martin=< wrote:
>
>> This is a Southern question. I make Quaker Instant grits in the
>> microwave. What is the difference in 'instant' and 'quick' grits? Do
>> they cook the same way?
>>
>>
>
> "No self-respecting Southerner uses instant grits"

MY COUSIN VINNY

--
Evelyn C. Leeper
Heretic: someone who disagrees with you about
something neither of you knows anything about.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Boycott Israeli Companies - Flyer and Product List
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/79fa197c1703af45?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 11:25 am
From: "ISRAEL DID 9/11"

The majority are those brands who put all those crappy advertisements
on your TV all the time, those high-profile, low-value brands.

Download:
Boycott Israel Ramadan Leaflet (shift-click) (1Mb)

http://www.inminds.co.uk/boycott-leaflet-a4-ramadan-campaign.pdf

==============================================================================
TOPIC: The Crack Smoker and the Peter Puffer.
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/8b0204bcfb5bfe25?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 11:34 am
From: "Patriot Games"

<haber14@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:1235ace4-32d2-40c2-8a53-c864f1773e96@o10g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVeFVtcdSYY
> Interesting 1.5 minute video.

An ADMITTED crackhead, an ADMITTED COCKSUCKER!

Hahahahahahahaha!!!!

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Predictions on oil costs for next decade
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/4d8ed6676617cb7f?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 11:38 am
From: Paul M. Eldridge

On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 08:21:49 -0800 (PST), Drop_the_chalupa_RodSpeed
<kwokx2@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Feb 16, 12:32 pm, Paul M. Eldridge <paul.eldri...@ns.sympatico.ca>
>wrote:
>> Along these same lines, I'm betting disco music, big hair, frilly
>> shirts, bell bottoms and platform shoes will make a come back.
>
>
>No, please no more Bee Gees.

When I'm old and grey and sent off to the retirement home, sitting in
the hallway strapped to my wheel chair with drool dripping down the
left side of my face, they'll no doubt be playing the songs of my era,
just like the big band music they played for mom when she lived in
assisted care. Why I can hear it now... "....ah, ah... staying alive,
staying alive.... ah, ah, staying aliveeeeee!".

Cheers,
Paul

==============================================================================
TOPIC: plastic knives
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/07c751bd8a07b476?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 1:35 pm
From: bob@coolgroups.com

Why can't I buy a package of plastic knives without spoons and forks
in it?

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 1:49 pm
From: "pepita@prodigy.net"

On Feb 17, 4:35 pm, b...@coolgroups.com wrote:
> Why can't I buy a package of plastic knives without spoons and forks
> in it?

try a different store. My local grocery store sells packages of all
three, plus they also sell packages of just forks, just knives or just
spoons.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 1:55 pm
From: Anthony Matonak

bob@coolgroups.com wrote:
> Why can't I buy a package of plastic knives without spoons and forks
> in it?

Is this a riddle? Something like "What is in my pocket?" or
"What color is my underwear?"

How about...
Because you haven't looked?
Because you have no money to buy anything?
Because there are no grocery stores under bridges?

I see knives, forks, spoons and sporks in unmixed packages
all the time in stores like Target, Smart & Final and most
every grocery store. They're even available on-line. If you
can't find them, it's not because they aren't there.

Anthony

==============================================================================
TOPIC: muslim-christian dialougue
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/791f1804176664ac?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 1:51 pm
From: Al Bundy

small giant wrote:

Pile it as high as you want. It's still BS.

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 1:58 pm
From: CJT

Rick Blaine wrote:
> Tony Hwang <dragon40@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
>
>>What is therm?
>
>
> Approximately 105 megajoules. It's a common billing unit in the US.

Do they ever actually meter therms, or measure ccf and convert?
It seems to me to actually measure the therms, they'd need to
continuously monitor the heating value of the gas being delivered,
and that seems quite difficult compared with just measuring cf.
Of course, assuming they've stripped the gas down to nearly pure
methane, the conversion is easy, but natural gas can vary according
to ethane and higher content.

--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form che...@prodigy.net.

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24 new messages in 11 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: cheap Gucci Chanel Fendi Miumiu handbag replica , Brand Jewelry Tiffany
Ed hardy evisu jeans t-shirts
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/f379293d4e7c75f9?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 8:11 am
From: clams_casino

Ron Peterson wrote:

>On Feb 16, 8:56 am, Joe <joe5...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>On Feb 15, 11:38 pm, Ron Peterson <r...@shell.core.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>
>
>
>>>Per month, of course. So, if you can rent something for $2,000 per
>>>month, it isn't a good idea to buy it for $400,000.
>>>
>>>
>
>
>
>>This cannot be true in the Northeast. If so no home would be a good
>>investment.
>>
>>
>
>The way I see it is that you need to spend about 6% interest expense,
>2% depreciation, 1% maintenance, 2% taxes, and 1% for realtor expense
>giving a total 12% per year cost for the value of the house.
>
>--
> Ron
>
>
>

Why the 2% depreciation if you include the maintenance.? Homes (in
most locations) tend to appreciate, not depreciate (over the long haul).

Furthermore, a significant portion of the taxes & interest are usually
offset by tax deductions.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Why do we pay for free stuff?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/03a5b3cae08816d6?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 8:14 am
From: Drop_the_chalupa_RodSpeed

Steve wrote:
> Excerpts from http://edge.org/3rd_culture/kelly08/kelly08_index.html

Mindless commie drivel.
RodSpeed, get the Batcar ready!

==============================================================================
TOPIC: china 2008 Olympic Games wholesale NFL Jersey
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/709af4b3adff8553?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 8:15 am
From: amoyhy@gmail.com

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Quit Buying Junk and Destroying tThe Globe
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/04c61287dda5c12d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 8:20 am
From: Drop_the_chalupa_RodSpeed

On Feb 16, 1:36 pm, clams_casino <PeterGrif...@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:
> Drop_the_chalupa_RodSpeed wrote:
> >On Feb 16, 12:02 pm, Cheapo Groovo <c...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
> >>http://cheapo
>
> >Commie!
>
> Don't you mean SPAMMER?

Commie!

== 1 of 12 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 8:19 am
From: "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"

On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 12:33:51 GMT, Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
> No need to turn both off if the valves work, but can't hurt.

Hi Edwin,

Wow. You're good. You caught a bunch of nuances that I will both modify to
improve (and repost when the job's done) and a few I'll explain better.

In this case, as per advice here, Bill will be removing the existing
twisty-knob cold-water valve to because I asked him to replace that round
green "gate" valve with a red-lever-twist ball valve.

>> - Open all hot-water faucets in the house to drain off pressure
> One low valve will drain off the pressure in seconds.

Oh. OK. I was confused. I'll modify that. Some of the tutorials I read said
to open just one hot-water faucet while others said to open them all. I was
confused. I'll modify the tutorial so others following us benefit.

>> - Wait two hours, if possible, to allow the hot water in the tank to cool
>
> Turn the gas off the night before. Alternately, turnt he gas off, run the
> hot water to dilute what is in there a bit, then drain.

Good point. Actually, we take a long hot shower every morning and Bill has
been gone a while, so, we really wanted to take that last steaming hot
shower on the old tank so that's why I said it that way. It *is* a great
idea to bleed off the hot water so as to dilute the tank so that will be
added to the tutorial.

>> - Disconnect garden hose and close drain valve when done
> It won't drain unless you allow air to get in.
> Disconnect the top lines, then drain.

Good point. I realized I mixed the standard-maintenance drain procedure
with the removal procedure. For a maintenance drain, we'd open a hot-water
faucet. For a removal and replacement, we can disconnect the lines. Good
point. I will modify the tutorial so we all benefit.

>> - Separate the vent pipe from the draft hood
> In your parts list I did not see anything for the vent hood that will be 5"
> shorter. Can you just cut the existing flue pipe?

Very astute Edwin. The Sears guy, when showed pictures of what we had with
yardsticks taped in place said we could just tin snip or hack saw the
existing 3 inch vent pipe a few inches shorter. This will be the biggest
'modification' that we'll have to do to accomodatge the hugely larger
heater. The Sears salesman said it was so much larger because of all the
insulation. He even said we don't need any blanket as it wouldn't add any R
value, he said.

>> - Remove all gas plumbing up to and including the old shut-off valve
> Why? I didn't see any gas fittings on the parts list.

Wow Edwin. You are very observant. After speaking to the Sears guy, we
tried to find a gas line that had an integrated on-off valve like the one
we have and we couldn't find any of them in his yellow hose collection. He
said the gas line doesn't corrode and our pictures we showed him show it to
be in good shape so we figured we'd keep the existing gas line. For the
tutorial, I did a "do as I say not as I do" but you caught me in my parts
list! Very clever!

Should I remove this part from the tutorial?
Does nobody replace the gas lines? (we're not going to).

>> - Open all the hot-water faucets in the house to bleed out air
> I'd leave them closed all along the way, save for one.

OK. I'll modify the hot water heater replacement how to.

Thanks for your astute advice - I'm happily surprised that others pay as
much attention to detail as I do in my home water heater replacement
tutorial!

Donna

== 2 of 12 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 7:30 am
From: "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"

On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 07:26:23 -0600, Vic Smith wrote:
> If your pipes are galvanized you don't need di-electric fittings.

Hi Vic Smith,
THIS IS MY BIGGEST CONFUSION!
I see only *some* of the hot water heater replacement guides saying to use
the di-electric fittings while others ignore it totally. Our existing
plumbing has galvanized connected to flex tubing connected to nipple on the
hot water heater.

> My guess is special tape/dope for NG is just bullshit to sell
> expensive sealers, but do what you prefer with that.

I was wondering why some hot water heater repair guides said to use Teflon
tape (TPFE?) on the water lines but pipe dope (TPE?) on the gas lines yet
the tube that I bought says it works for both gas and water. That's
confusing. I was careful to only state in my hot water heater step by step
guide just what I had read in other guides, taking the best except where
they conflicted.

> I use the same teflon tape for gas and water. As you've noted keep it
> off the first couple threads so it can't get in the pipe flow.
> I always look end-on to ensure that. Once inserted for tightening it
> can't move forward.

Excellent hint! I'll add it to the tutorial as an additional step!
Thanks for improving the a.h.r hot-water heater tutorial for others to
benefit!

> Unless it's the exact same tank, you will have to use different length
> nipples. Until the new tank is in place, you are guessing.

Sigh. This was my biggest hurdle. Trying to get accuracy where there was
none. That's why we bought so many plumbing extras!

> If you do it alone, do it when parts are available.

Yup. That's why we waited until after our morning showers on a Sunday. The
stores will be happy to sell us parts all day!

> You may find some of the old pipes/fittings scaled up and need
> replacing. Same with stop valves. This is the time to replace old
> questionable stuff.

We agree. Strangely, the cold-water pipes are all full of crusty white
baking-soda like crud while the hot-water side seems relatively free of
scale. We're still replacing everything, including the old round green
twist gate valve, with newer better plumbing like the red lever ball valve.

> Good luck. And let us know how it worked out.

Thanks Vic. I'd have to die trying in order not to report back to the
group. I'm the official photographer as Bill does the work (he hates my
flashing all around him) so I'll have complete step-by-step photos of the
job, starting from the fiasco when we tried to "save the box" the heater
came in.

Oh my! It was a disaster just getting the new hot water heater out of the
box, upside down, without damaging the box!

Donna

== 3 of 12 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 7:34 am
From: "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"

On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 06:19:34 -0500, Nate Nagel wrote:
> the nipples on the top of your new heater should already be dielectric,
> so adding a dielectric at the end of your water pipes would only protect
> the copper flex.

Hi Nate,
That dialectric stuff confuses me to no end.

The nipples already screwed into the top of the hot water heater seem to
have blue plastic inside them but they look like steel. I was actually
expecting two black steel female fittings in the top of the tank based on
what I saw at the store but this tank, when we finally got it out of the
box, has two whitish chromeyish nipples already screwed in.

Are you saying we can put the copper or stainless steel flex tubing
directly onto those two nipples sticking out of the top of the new hot
water heater?

Donna

== 4 of 12 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 7:52 am
From: "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"

On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 05:44:55 -0800 (PST), trader4@optonline.net wrote:
> I don't know why you continue to dismiss a 12 year warranty on the
> water heater as useless. You seem to be saying that because that is
> about the typical life of a water heater, that the warranty is of no
> value. Yet you value a 1 year warranty on labor?

Hi Trader,

Thanks for keeping up on this. Maybe I'm wrong on the warrantee but I took
logic in college and the warrantee seems like a useless marketing tool to
me when I read through what I have to do in order to "make good" on it.

It's hard for me to write this reply because I feel the warranty is only an
advertising gimmick which, to me, is only useful for the first year, mainly
because I'm never going to take the water heater apart and bring it to the
store to obtain the "free" replacement after the first year - and - the
alternative is to pay as much for the labor as the entire water heater cost
in the first place - so the "free" replacement costs just as much as the
original parts if I have a plumber come to me to inspect, diagnose, and
replace it. The warrantee seems absolutely useless to me, after the first
year given those realistic concerns.

Worse than that, I read the entire text of the Sears "12-year limited
warranty" which intimates Sears will replace parts that are defective and
the water heater itself *only* if it develops a leak (no other replacement
is warranted).

> installing it yourself, there is no labor anyway,
> so why is that even an issue?

This is the ENTIRE issue! If I have to remove the entire water heater in
order to bring it to the store just to see if they'll warrant the parts or
the leaking tank, that's absolutely crazy! Do people really remove their
water heater, truck it in the back of their car to the store, have someone
at the store look at it and decide whether or not to replace the parts,
then, if they decide not to, you truck it back home and re-install it? Or,
if they decide to replace the parts, they hand you the new parts and you
truck the whole drippy thing back home to re-install it? I think not.

If I need to make good on the warrantee, the only way I'll ever do it is to
call a Sears plumber at 800-469-4663 who will likely charge me as much for
the visit as the thing cost in the first place. Sure, I'll get a new water
heater - and it will cost me exactly what it cost when I bought it
considering I MUST use their labor. I have no choice this second time
around.

My whole point is the automobile analogy you provided is exactly opposite
of reality! You can easily DRIVE the car to the dealership to get a part
diagnosed and fixed but to drive your water heater to the Sears store would
be ludicrous (for me).

Do you see why the automobile analogy doesn't apply for a water heater?
Bringing the water heater to the dealer isn't an option.
To bring the dealer to the water heater costs as much as the water heater.
It's that simple to me.

Donna

== 5 of 12 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 8:52 am
From: Vic Smith

On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 08:30:34 -0700, "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer
Coordinator" <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 07:26:23 -0600, Vic Smith wrote:
>> If your pipes are galvanized you don't need di-electric fittings.
>
>Hi Vic Smith,
>THIS IS MY BIGGEST CONFUSION!
>I see only *some* of the hot water heater replacement guides saying to use
>the di-electric fittings while others ignore it totally. Our existing
>plumbing has galvanized connected to flex tubing connected to nipple on the
>hot water heater.
>
Di-electrics are used when collecting copper to steel. Newer homes
usually have all copper. Di-electrics usually come into play when
replacing the main service (the bigger supply lines) from galvanized
to copper, but leaving the plumbing wall galvanized pipes in place.
You would use a di-electirc union between the copper and galvanized.
I've never used flex on a hot water heater, but suppose that flex
connectors have the di-electric insulator built in. Should be some
specs attached to that type of connector.
>
>> You may find some of the old pipes/fittings scaled up and need
>> replacing. Same with stop valves. This is the time to replace old
>> questionable stuff.
>
>We agree. Strangely, the cold-water pipes are all full of crusty white
>baking-soda like crud while the hot-water side seems relatively free of
>scale. We're still replacing everything, including the old round green
>twist gate valve, with newer better plumbing like the red lever ball valve.
>
The hot and cold pipes could be different ages, or the mineral content
could precipitate differently that what has been my experience, which
is the hot water scaling up much more.
I wouldn't use a ball valve as a stop valve. For long term use I
believe a typical globe or gate valve will prove more reliable.

--Vic

== 6 of 12 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 8:59 am
From: msg

cavedweller wrote:

> On Feb 17, 12:07 am, "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"
> <donna....@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

<snip lengthy instructions and specifications>
>
> Now we know why good old Bill travels...............

Interesting; it struck me as both encouraging that a female would have
an engineering orientation and also a bit odd that such detail would
be accorded to a routine task.

Just out of curiosity, Donna, what is your employment or educational
background?

Michael

== 7 of 12 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 9:22 am
From: "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"

On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 10:59:36 -0600, msg wrote:
> odd that such detail would be accorded to a routine task.
> Donna, what is your employment or educational background?

Hi msg,

I retired from a career in public-school teaching two years ago.

At one point, I taught very young autistic and aspergers children; we found
the best therapy for their social disability was to break down even the
most mundane of tasks into their every component.

By behavioral modification, the children could perform the behavior on
their own, outside the classroom.

This is much like what a software engineer does when writing routine or
complex software, is it not?

Donna

== 8 of 12 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 9:24 am
From: "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"

On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 10:52:25 -0600, Vic Smith wrote:
> I've never used flex on a hot water heater, but suppose that flex
> connectors have the di-electric insulator built in. Should be some
> specs attached to that type of connector.

Hi Vic,

There is a black rubber grommet inside the copper flex tube's brass
fittings. Maybe that's the dialectric; but it's tremendously smaller than
the fist-sized dialectric unions we bought yesterday.

Donna

== 9 of 12 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 9:26 am
From: "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"

On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 10:52:25 -0600, Vic Smith wrote:
> The hot and cold pipes could be different ages, or the mineral content
> could precipitate differently that what has been my experience, which
> is the hot water scaling up much more.

Hi Vic,

I was thinking it was the condensation on the cold-water pipe (being in the
unheated garage) that allowed the scaley white crust to build up only on
the cold-water pipe.

We recently moved here so we don't know what the history is on the
hot-water pipe; maybe it is simply newer.

Donna

== 10 of 12 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 9:31 am
From: "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"

On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 11:04:53 -0500, clams_casino wrote:
On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 11:04:53 -0500, clams_casino wrote:
> Do get it right. A family recently died of carbon monoxide poisoning

Hi clams,

We *are* doing it right. That's why I'm here in the first place. To get it
right. I do appreciate the help. From everyone. And, I'll give back by
posting the tutorial for others like us to follow.

In fact, we feel we're possibly doing it *better* than a plumber might, at
least in terms of raw material. It seems to us (unsubstantiated opinion)
that a plumber might tend to maximize his *time* and not necessarily the
quality of the materials - unless specifically asked to by the homeowner
(who must correspondingly be willing to pay for the extra parts cost and
labor).

Bill is in his final shower as we speak. The gas is off.

He can sing in that steaming hot shower for as long as he likes and, for
once, I won't be on his back about wasting the hot water!

Donna

== 11 of 12 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 9:37 am
From: msg

Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator wrote:

> On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 10:59:36 -0600, msg wrote:
>
>>odd that such detail would be accorded to a routine task.
>>Donna, what is your employment or educational background?

<snip>
> I retired from a career in public-school teaching two years ago.
>
> At one point, I taught very young autistic and aspergers children; we found
> the best therapy for their social disability was to break down even the
> most mundane of tasks into their every component.
>
> By behavioral modification, the children could perform the behavior on
> their own, outside the classroom.
>
> This is much like what a software engineer does when writing routine or
> complex software, is it not?

Indeed, I almost labeled your post a "flow chart" but it didn't use the
standard conventions of flow charting ;-).

Are you planning on posting your photos and tutorial? What would be the URL?

Michael

== 12 of 12 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 9:39 am
From: Vic Smith

On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 17:26:01 GMT, "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer
Coordinator" <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 10:52:25 -0600, Vic Smith wrote:
>> The hot and cold pipes could be different ages, or the mineral content
>> could precipitate differently that what has been my experience, which
>> is the hot water scaling up much more.
>
>Hi Vic,
>
>I was thinking it was the condensation on the cold-water pipe (being in the
>unheated garage) that allowed the scaley white crust to build up only on
>the cold-water pipe.
>
>We recently moved here so we don't know what the history is on the
>hot-water pipe; maybe it is simply newer.
>
Could be. I was talking about the inside of the pipe, where
condensation isn't an issue. I've seen some hot water pipes which
were almost completely clogged with scale. I believe it's because
the heat causes the mineral solution to more readily deposit on the
steel.

--Vic

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 8:12 pm
From: "daestrom"

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
message news:yvItj.756$pl4.153@newssvr22.news.prodigy.net...
> I'm curious how I compare with others in my natural gas usage.
>
> I used 120 therms in the past 30 days (about 4 therms per day).
> HOW MANY THERMS DID YOU USE LAST MONTH?
>
> I do realize that there are _many_ factors that affect usage but there is
> only one number for your final usage. That's what I'd like to compare.

Well if you don't pay attention to climate, you're data is going to be 'all
over the map'.

My bill for last month was 155 therms for a 2600 sqft house and family of
four (gas laundry, gas water heater, gas stove, gas furnace). That's about
5.2 Therm/day. Mind you, in upstate NY we average about 1200 degree-days in
January alone. So I average about 0.11 Therms/degree-day. My neighbors
think that's a pretty low bill for January.

daestrom

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 8:39 am
From: "daestrom"

"pepita@prodigy.net" <scrapquilter@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:8ef5db73-8011-4dbb-82d1-b1aabb1ef711@c33g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
On Feb 16, 3:24 pm, "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"
<donna....@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> I'm curious how I compare with others in my natural gas usage.
>
> I used 120 therms in the past 30 days (about 4 therms per day).
> HOW MANY THERMS DID YOU USE LAST MONTH?
>

My bill states 27 days in the last billing period. 158ccf is the
amount of natural gas that I am being billed for. Is that the same
unit you are referencing?

CCF stands for 'hundred cubic feet' (think of the Roman numeral for 100,
'C')

Since natural gas is almost pure methane in most parts, and methane has an
energy content of something like 1050 BTU/ft^3, then 100 ft^3 of methane is
about 105,000 BTU.

In many states, the gas company is required to sample their gas regularly
and analyse its true heating value. Based on this, they come up with a
conversion between CCF of their gas supply and BTU. For those billed in
'Therms', you will see CCF and a conversion to Therms somewhere on your
bill. If your usage is small (say, <100 CCF), the numbers come out the same
almost all the time. For higher usage there will be some difference in the
two (such as mine last month, 151 CCF and 155 Therm).

By billing in Therms, customers don't get 'cheated' into paying the same for
a cubic foot of low-grade NG that has significant amounts of CO2 mixed in it
as they would pay for higher-grade NG.

Maybe you're state regulates the gas content instead so that a CCF is
guaranteed a certain minimum heating value??

daestrom

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 9:57 am
From: hchickpea@hotmail.com

On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 05:17:36 -0000, gheston@hiwaay.net (Gary Heston)
wrote:

>In article <fp81vi$gnn$2@news.datemas.de>, Marsha <mas@bex.net> wrote:
>>Gary Heston wrote:
> [ ... ]
>>> Since we just went through water usage, let me preempt the next inquiries:
> [ ... ]
>>> Garbage pickup $29.00
> [ ... ]
>
>>> As above, that's for two houses, total of about 1900 square feet, one
>>> occupant.
>
>>Is your garbage pickup through city workers or a private entity? It
>>seems a lot of people on this group pay more for garbage pickup than we
>>do, which is $30.00 every 3 months, unlimited. We are in a suburb. The
>>nearest city used to get free pickup, but they now have to pay an extra
>>$10.00/month.
>
>My pickup is by the city; with two houses, I pay two fees for one person.
>It's a flat rate per address, and I generate so little that I put out
>perhaps one can a month. Someone who puts out one every month pays the
>same as I do. No way around it, though.
>
>
>Gary

We pay $11/mo tacked on to the power bill, but were able to get one of
ours deferred by the health department (we have two power drops, one
on each side of the road.)

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 8:21 am
From: Drop_the_chalupa_RodSpeed

On Feb 16, 12:32 pm, Paul M. Eldridge <paul.eldri...@ns.sympatico.ca>
wrote:
> Along these same lines, I'm betting disco music, big hair, frilly
> shirts, bell bottoms and platform shoes will make a come back.

No, please no more Bee Gees.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Check out my spam
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/923d858b84ad6681?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 8:34 am
From: clams_casino

choppa504@gmail.com wrote:

>Check out my blog and let me know what you think.
>
>http://spam.blogspot.com/
>
>Thanks
>
>

I think you need to learn not to spam your blog - abuse@suddenlink.net .

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 8:54 am
From: Drop_the_chalupa_RodSpeed

On Feb 16, 1:32 pm, clams_casino <PeterGrif...@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:
> It's called eBay math. Millions of eBayers think they are making money
> with the same math.

Too funny. Up there with some kind of SNL skit. LOL.

I still think everything is about cash flow. Musical chairs if you
want to call it that. That is how banks and credit card entities
blueprint their existence IMHO. As a seller, I am constantly looking
at cash flow as well as profit. The conundrum is when markets go bust
and sellers are stuck with inventory. In the case of stamps, that is a
guarded market. For a 2.439% gross profit, that is a heck of a lot of
merchandise to move though.

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http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/5ced715482fc1973?hl=en
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