Frugal Living: 25 new messages in 11 topics

Sunday, February 17, 2008

25 new messages in 11 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Stamps to Cost a Penny More
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/729cf5df8392523c?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 10:03 am
From: "rick++"

Youd have to have extradinary low inventory and sales costs
to make a profit at 2.3% margin. Each of the Ebay commission,
inflation and cost of funds is higher than this.

Most merchants look for 30-50% margin.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/e565eaf98e0e70b6?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 8 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 9:04 am
From: "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"

On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 11:37:36 -0600, msg wrote:
> Are you planning on posting your photos and tutorial?
> What would be the URL?

I don't know.

Last time I got help here was for the hot air furnace which needed to be
taken apart and cleaned because the limit kept kicking in.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.home.repair/browse_thread/thread/94746b0668e8b6e5/41f1c7f208260970?lnk=gst&q=furnace+cleaned+donna+photo+posted#41f1c7f208260970

I posted *those* clogged-furnace pictures here
http://www.flickr.com/photos/23329283@N07/

But nobody seemed to care so I wasn't sure whether it would help or not to
post my pictures of a mundane (to you guys!) hot water heater replacement
job.

Donna

== 2 of 8 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 11:33 am
From: "Bob M."

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
message news:e5Qtj.662$tW.403@nlpi070.nbdc.sbc.com...

>
> Also, we bought the extra one-way check valve even though the water heater
> apparently comes with heat-loss protectors and we can s-kink the flex
> lines
> (not the steel lines, just the copper lines).
>
> Do you think the one-way hot-water-outlet check valve will work to slow
> heat loss?

For a year or two, probably. Does it have a rubber flap in it or is it a
real check valve? If it's a check valve, don't use it. They rattle after
some time. (i'd question the rubber flap kind too; they'd get stuck in the
'outflow' direction eventually)

If you want it to work forever, make your own. Make a loop out of the
flexible copper line or solder one out of rigid copper. You'll find out
that flexible copper isn't very flexible. I did the latter, the side that
goes up from the tank is hot, the side that comes back down is cold after
it's been sitting for a while. Mine's 12" from top to bottom, 6" is probably
ok. No ball to rattle, will work until the laws of physics are repealed.

>
> Note we didn't buy the insulating blanket for the water heater, nor the
> insulation for the hot-water pipes yet. We figured we could do that later.

If you put in a proper heat trap as described above, insulated pipes are
unnecessary.

>
> Our biggest question is whether we really needed the dialectric unions.
> Since they were female:female, that necessitated brass nipples on each
> side, further lengthening the lines which we need to shorten.

You'll need the unions.

== 3 of 8 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 11:36 am
From: "Bob M."

"Vic Smith" <thismailautodeleted@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:mpcgr353o2tda05vk17hsn3975aptt4dqb@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 16 Feb 2008 22:07:56 -0700, "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer
> Coordinator" <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> <snipped instructions for heater replacement>
>
> If your pipes are galvanized you don't need di-electric fittings.

Don't use galvanized pipe; it rusts from the inside out after a few decades.
Use copper.

== 4 of 8 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 11:40 am
From: "Edwin Pawlowski"

"Bob M." <no@nospam.com> wrote in message
>
> For a year or two, probably. Does it have a rubber flap in it or is it a
> real check valve? If it's a check valve, don't use it. They rattle after
> some time. (i'd question the rubber flap kind too; they'd get stuck in
> the 'outflow' direction eventually)

Another point about check valves. Some are swing checks that must be mounted
horizontal. Spring checks can go vertical. Personally, I'd not use one

== 5 of 8 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 11:40 am
From: Nate Nagel

Bob M. wrote:
> "Vic Smith" <thismailautodeleted@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:mpcgr353o2tda05vk17hsn3975aptt4dqb@4ax.com...
>
>> On Sat, 16 Feb 2008 22:07:56 -0700, "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer
>> Coordinator" <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> <snipped instructions for heater replacement>
>>
>> If your pipes are galvanized you don't need di-electric fittings.
>
>
> Don't use galvanized pipe; it rusts from the inside out after a few
> decades. Use copper.

I agree, the OP is talking about a retrofit of a water heater in a house
that already has galv. water pipes. They probably ought to be replaced
with copper at some point, but one job at a time :)

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

== 6 of 8 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 11:46 am
From: "Bob M."

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
message news:klZtj.970$Mh2.908@nlpi069.nbdc.sbc.com...
> On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 06:19:34 -0500, Nate Nagel wrote:
>> the nipples on the top of your new heater should already be dielectric,
>> so adding a dielectric at the end of your water pipes would only protect
>> the copper flex.
>
> Hi Nate,
> That dialectric stuff confuses me to no end.

Dielectric unions are needed to prevent reactions between dissimilar metals,
causing leaks years from now. This is why copper hanger brackets or straps
should be used with copper pipe.

Sometimes though, unions are used simply to facilitate future disassembly;
no desoldering required, just a big wrench.

== 7 of 8 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 12:58 pm
From: Jerry Peters

In sci.electronics.repair Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 15:10:03 -0800 (PST), hallerb@aol.com wrote:
>> add be prepared to replace drain valve, which may not shut or drip
>> when closed, espically the plastic ones. some valves will clog replace
>> tank drain valve with a ball valve at new tank install time
>
> Thank you for all the advice!
> You've given us the courage to tackle this ourselves!
> Bill and I read *every* post here!
>
> To replace our dripping 40-gallon (65-gallon FHR) home water heater, we
> bought the best water heater I could find.
>
> This turned out to be the $450 Sears #33154 (actually manufactured by AO
> Smith) 97-gallon First Hour Rating (FHR) and 0.63 Energy Factor (EF),
> nominally with a 50-gallon tank and coming with a (rather useless) 12-year
> warranty on parts and a slightly useful 1-year warranty on labor.
>
> We're going to do the job tomorrow so I'm reading *everything* I can find
> on the net on how to properly remove and install a natural gas home hot
> water heater. I'll summarize the steps we plan on taking in a subsequent
> posting.
>
> So far, Bill bought $686.47 in parts while I write up every step for him
> before we do the work tomorrow, together. He will return any unused parts,
> but here is what he bought from Sears today to get ready for the job.
>
> $449.00 Sears #33154 50-gallon 12/1 year hot water heater 97FHR .63EF
> $ 2.19 1-ounce TFE paste (for the gas pipe fittings)
> $ 9.59 3/4-inch quarter-turn water valve (replaces plastic drain valve)
> $ 8.99 3/4-inch CSA gas ball valve (for the gas line)
> $ 15.99 3/4-inch swing check valve (for additional heat-loss protection)
> $ 7.99 18" 3/4-inch by 3/4 inch FIP corrugated copper/brass flex pipe (x2)
> $ 7.49 15" 3/4-inch by 3/4 inch FIP corrugated copper/brass flex pipe (x2)
> $ 5.99 12" 3/4-inch by 3/4 inch FIP corrugated copper/brass flex pipe (x2)
> $ 12.99 18" 3/4-inch stainless-steel water-heater connector pipe (x2)
> $ 10.99 12" 3/4-inch stainless-steel water-heater connector pipe (x2)
> $ 8.99 3/4-inch by 3/4-inch Dialectric Union B (x4)
> $ 3.59 1.5-inch long 3/4-inch male:male brass pipe nipples (x4)
> $ 2.39 1.0-inch long 3/4-inch male:male brass pipe nipples (x3)
> $ 52.32 sales tax at 8.25%
> --------
> $686.47 total
>
> The reason for *both* the copper flex pipe and stainless steel pipe is
> because the stainless steel might allow us to not need the dialectric
> unions which are huge. Remember, the new tank is five inches taller than
> the old tank so we are going to have problems with the plumbing most likely
> so having fewer nipples and dialectric unions will shorten the lines a bit.
>
> Do we really need to isolate the copper from the brass from the steel?
> We assume so.

The flexible water-heater connection lines should already have an
insulator/gasket at each coupling.

I've never been thrilled using dialectric unions, after being inplace
a few months the galvanized section was corroded internally. I use
flex corrugated copper and dialectric nipples, galvanized steel with
a plastic liner, between the tank and the flex lines.

Copper or brass from steel. Most plumbing components like valves are
brass and can be directly connected to copper.

Jerry
>
> Also, we bought the extra one-way check valve even though the water heater
> apparently comes with heat-loss protectors and we can s-kink the flex lines
> (not the steel lines, just the copper lines).
>
> Do you think the one-way hot-water-outlet check valve will work to slow
> heat loss?
>
> Note we didn't buy the insulating blanket for the water heater, nor the
> insulation for the hot-water pipes yet. We figured we could do that later.
>
> Our biggest question is whether we really needed the dialectric unions.
> Since they were female:female, that necessitated brass nipples on each
> side, further lengthening the lines which we need to shorten.
>
> What do you think?
> Donna & Bill

== 8 of 8 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 1:57 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 10:59:36 -0600, msg wrote:
>> odd that such detail would be accorded to a routine task.
>> Donna, what is your employment or educational background?
>
> Hi msg,
>
> I retired from a career in public-school teaching two years ago.
>
> At one point, I taught very young autistic and aspergers children; we
> found the best therapy for their social disability was to break down
> even the most mundane of tasks into their every component.
>
> By behavioral modification, the children could perform the behavior on
> their own, outside the classroom.
>
> This is much like what a software engineer does when writing routine
> or complex software, is it not?

Nope.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Was my home purchase in 2006 frugal?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/9d0f58de213b13b6?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 10:06 am
From: "rick++"

> The rule of thumb is that your house should rent for 1% of its
> purchase price.

That rule was in the era of 8% mortgages 1980 - 2002.
It can be lower now since money has been 5-6% most of this decade.

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 11:53 am
From: Ron Peterson

On Feb 17, 10:11 am, clams_casino <PeterGrif...@DrunkinClam.com>
wrote:
> Ron Peterson wrote:

> >The way I see it is that you need to spend about 6% interest expense,
> >2% depreciation, 1% maintenance, 2% taxes, and 1% for realtor expense
> >giving a total 12% per year cost for the value of the house.

> Why the 2% depreciation if you include the maintenance.? Homes (in
> most locations) tend to appreciate, not depreciate (over the long haul).

The 2% depreciation is relative to the cost of new construction. It
usually costs more to remodel an old home to the standards of a new
house than to build a new hoouse from scratch.

Usually as a house ages, maintenance costs go up and it will
eventually pay to tear the house and build a new one.

> Furthermore, a significant portion of the taxes & interest are usually
> offset by tax deductions.

I am just trying to illustrate what is a reasonable amount to spend
for housing. YMMV depending on your financial conditions and location.

--
Ron

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 12:59 pm
From: "John Weiss"

"Joe" <joe5345@gmail.com> wrote...
>I just read this article detailing how home prices in the Northeast
> dropped 4.8% from 2006-2007. I purchased my home in Aug 2006 and knew
> prices were going to drop but our situation left me very little choice
> so I justified my purchase at the time thinking the worst case
> scenario is that my house value will drop around 5% a year, well it
> did, but I still figure that I'm ahead of the game considering 5% of
> my purchase price is still less than I would have paid in rent for
> 2007. That money would have been thrown away never to be seen again
> anyway. Now I know I am still on the hook for taxes and upkeep of the
> house but my quality of life is drastically different than living in
> an apartment so I consider that expense a wash. Am I wrong in
> justifying my purchase this way?

You haven't "lost' anything. You won't "lose" anything unless you sell the
house for less than the purchase price.

If you plan on staying in the house a while, you're likely to regain any
temporary paper loss.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: when does the tripling of grain prices "hit the fan"?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/b7ba2eeecb9059a7?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 10:11 am
From: "rick++"

Wheat and corn prices have quadrupled in the past two years
due to ethanol and international grain demand.
I read a sad Denver news story about hobby horse owners
having to put down their animals because monthly feed
costs have trebled. They could board a horse at $500 a
month but not $1500.
I havent seen this passed through bakeries like the 1979-1980
jump, but I guess its coming.

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 11:54 am
From: don@manx.misty.com (Don Klipstein)

In <9eea2763-200d-4e2b-81e6-1ebb50558a37@e60g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
rick++ wrote:

>Wheat and corn prices have quadrupled in the past two years
>due to ethanol and international grain demand.
>I read a sad Denver news story about hobby horse owners
>having to put down their animals because monthly feed
>costs have trebled. They could board a horse at $500 a
>month but not $1500.
>I havent seen this passed through bakeries like the 1979-1980
>jump, but I guess its coming.

Wheat recently hit a high of $10.93 per bushel for March delivery:

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080208/usda_wheat_commodities_wrap.html?.v=1

A bushel of weight is 60 pounds of wheat.

http://www.cyberspaceag.com/kansascrops/whatsinabushel.htm

So wheat costs about 18 cents per pound. The wheat in a $2-plus
22-ounce loaf of bread costs about 25 cents at the latest high prices of
wheat.

- Don Klipstein (don@misty.com)

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 1:48 pm
From: Al Bundy

On Feb 17, 1:11 pm, "rick++" <rick...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Wheat and corn prices have quadrupled in the past two years
> due to ethanol and international grain demand.
> I read a sad Denver news story about hobby horse owners
> having to put down their animals because monthly feed
> costs have trebled. They could board a horse at $500 a
> month but not $1500.
> I havent seen this passed through bakeries like the 1979-1980
> jump, but I guess its coming.

So perhaps the cost of horse meat will be going down. It all evens out.

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 1:48 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

rick++ <rick303@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Wheat and corn prices have quadrupled in the past two years

Pig ignorant lie.

> due to ethanol and international grain demand.

The same reason that prices always vary.

> I read a sad Denver news story about hobby horse owners having
> to put down their animals because monthly feed costs have trebled.

And you were actually stupid enough to believe it.
You dont have to feed horses on grain, stupid.

> They could board a horse at $500 a month but not $1500.

> I havent seen this passed through bakeries like
> the 1979-1980 jump, but I guess its coming.

Nope, because the drought that has produced the main hike wont last long enough.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Que: Grits Instant or Quick?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/74702e56ec43a313?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 11:23 am
From: "Evelyn C. Leeper"

clams_casino wrote:
> >=Martin=< wrote:
>
>> This is a Southern question. I make Quaker Instant grits in the
>> microwave. What is the difference in 'instant' and 'quick' grits? Do
>> they cook the same way?
>>
>>
>
> "No self-respecting Southerner uses instant grits"

MY COUSIN VINNY

--
Evelyn C. Leeper
Heretic: someone who disagrees with you about
something neither of you knows anything about.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Boycott Israeli Companies - Flyer and Product List
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/79fa197c1703af45?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 11:25 am
From: "ISRAEL DID 9/11"

The majority are those brands who put all those crappy advertisements
on your TV all the time, those high-profile, low-value brands.

Download:
Boycott Israel Ramadan Leaflet (shift-click) (1Mb)

http://www.inminds.co.uk/boycott-leaflet-a4-ramadan-campaign.pdf

==============================================================================
TOPIC: The Crack Smoker and the Peter Puffer.
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/8b0204bcfb5bfe25?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 11:34 am
From: "Patriot Games"

<haber14@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:1235ace4-32d2-40c2-8a53-c864f1773e96@o10g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVeFVtcdSYY
> Interesting 1.5 minute video.

An ADMITTED crackhead, an ADMITTED COCKSUCKER!

Hahahahahahahaha!!!!

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Predictions on oil costs for next decade
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/4d8ed6676617cb7f?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 11:38 am
From: Paul M. Eldridge

On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 08:21:49 -0800 (PST), Drop_the_chalupa_RodSpeed
<kwokx2@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Feb 16, 12:32 pm, Paul M. Eldridge <paul.eldri...@ns.sympatico.ca>
>wrote:
>> Along these same lines, I'm betting disco music, big hair, frilly
>> shirts, bell bottoms and platform shoes will make a come back.
>
>
>No, please no more Bee Gees.

When I'm old and grey and sent off to the retirement home, sitting in
the hallway strapped to my wheel chair with drool dripping down the
left side of my face, they'll no doubt be playing the songs of my era,
just like the big band music they played for mom when she lived in
assisted care. Why I can hear it now... "....ah, ah... staying alive,
staying alive.... ah, ah, staying aliveeeeee!".

Cheers,
Paul

==============================================================================
TOPIC: plastic knives
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/07c751bd8a07b476?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 1:35 pm
From: bob@coolgroups.com

Why can't I buy a package of plastic knives without spoons and forks
in it?

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 1:49 pm
From: "pepita@prodigy.net"

On Feb 17, 4:35 pm, b...@coolgroups.com wrote:
> Why can't I buy a package of plastic knives without spoons and forks
> in it?

try a different store. My local grocery store sells packages of all
three, plus they also sell packages of just forks, just knives or just
spoons.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 1:55 pm
From: Anthony Matonak

bob@coolgroups.com wrote:
> Why can't I buy a package of plastic knives without spoons and forks
> in it?

Is this a riddle? Something like "What is in my pocket?" or
"What color is my underwear?"

How about...
Because you haven't looked?
Because you have no money to buy anything?
Because there are no grocery stores under bridges?

I see knives, forks, spoons and sporks in unmixed packages
all the time in stores like Target, Smart & Final and most
every grocery store. They're even available on-line. If you
can't find them, it's not because they aren't there.

Anthony

==============================================================================
TOPIC: muslim-christian dialougue
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/791f1804176664ac?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 1:51 pm
From: Al Bundy

small giant wrote:

Pile it as high as you want. It's still BS.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: How many therms (natural gas) do you use per day (per month)?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/99d004d38152f87d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 1:58 pm
From: CJT

Rick Blaine wrote:
> Tony Hwang <dragon40@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
>
>>What is therm?
>
>
> Approximately 105 megajoules. It's a common billing unit in the US.

Do they ever actually meter therms, or measure ccf and convert?
It seems to me to actually measure the therms, they'd need to
continuously monitor the heating value of the gas being delivered,
and that seems quite difficult compared with just measuring cf.
Of course, assuming they've stripped the gas down to nearly pure
methane, the conversion is easy, but natural gas can vary according
to ethane and higher content.

--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form che...@prodigy.net.

==============================================================================

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "misc.consumers.frugal-living"
group.

To post to this group, visit http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

To unsubscribe from this group, send email to misc.consumers.frugal-living-unsubscribe@googlegroups.com

To change the way you get mail from this group, visit:
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/subscribe?hl=en

To report abuse, send email explaining the problem to abuse@googlegroups.com

==============================================================================
Google Groups: http://groups.google.com?hl=en

Frugal Living

Blog Archive

Sunday, February 17, 2008

25 new messages in 11 topics - digest

No comments: