Frugal Living: 25 new messages in 9 topics

Sunday, February 17, 2008

25 new messages in 9 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: when does the tripling of grain prices "hit the fan"?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/b7ba2eeecb9059a7?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 2:10 pm
From: don@manx.misty.com (Don Klipstein)

In <slrnfrh47d.pm5.don@manx.misty.com>, I, Don Klipstein wrote:

> Wheat recently hit a high of $10.93 per bushel for March delivery:
>
>http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080208/usda_wheat_commodities_wrap.html?.v=1
>
> A bushel of weight is 60 pounds of wheat.
>
>http://www.cyberspaceag.com/kansascrops/whatsinabushel.htm
>
> So wheat costs about 18 cents per pound. The wheat in a $2-plus 22-ounce
>loaf of bread costs about 25 cents at the latest high prices of wheat.

Make that less than 25 cents - bread is roughly half water, much of it
added.

- Don Klipstein (don@misty.com)

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 6:03 pm
From: "catalpa"

"rick++" <rick303@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:9eea2763-200d-4e2b-81e6-1ebb50558a37@e60g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> Wheat and corn prices have quadrupled in the past two years
> due to ethanol and international grain demand.
> I read a sad Denver news story about hobby horse owners
> having to put down their animals because monthly feed
> costs have trebled. They could board a horse at $500 a
> month but not $1500.
> I havent seen this passed through bakeries like the 1979-1980
> jump, but I guess its coming.

Your data is wrong. Corn had doubled going from $2.50 to $5.00 and wheat has
more than tripled going from $3.10 to $10.50. The higher prices will cause
record levels of planting in 2008.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: How many therms (natural gas) do you use per day (per month)?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/99d004d38152f87d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 2:21 pm
From: Rick Blaine

CJT <abujlehc@prodigy.net> wrote:

>
>Do they ever actually meter therms, or measure ccf and convert?
>It seems to me to actually measure the therms, they'd need to
>continuously monitor the heating value of the gas being delivered,
>and that seems quite difficult compared with just measuring cf.
>Of course, assuming they've stripped the gas down to nearly pure
>methane, the conversion is easy, but natural gas can vary according
>to ethane and higher content.

They do here... Meter reading is by CCF, then a conversion factor applied to get
therm, multiplied by the rate per therm. The factor changes slightly every
month...

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/e565eaf98e0e70b6?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 12 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 2:28 pm
From: "hallerb@aol.com"

if the OPs home is galavanized its time for them to buy a PEX tool to
replace their plumbing, PEX is cheap and super easy to work
with.........

== 2 of 12 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 3:25 pm
From: "James Sweet"

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
message news:e5Qtj.662$tW.403@nlpi070.nbdc.sbc.com...
> On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 15:10:03 -0800 (PST), hallerb@aol.com wrote:
>> add be prepared to replace drain valve, which may not shut or drip
>> when closed, espically the plastic ones. some valves will clog replace
>> tank drain valve with a ball valve at new tank install time
>
> Thank you for all the advice!
> You've given us the courage to tackle this ourselves!
> Bill and I read *every* post here!
>
> To replace our dripping 40-gallon (65-gallon FHR) home water heater, we
> bought the best water heater I could find.
>
> This turned out to be the $450 Sears #33154 (actually manufactured by AO
> Smith) 97-gallon First Hour Rating (FHR) and 0.63 Energy Factor (EF),
> nominally with a 50-gallon tank and coming with a (rather useless) 12-year
> warranty on parts and a slightly useful 1-year warranty on labor.
>
> We're going to do the job tomorrow so I'm reading *everything* I can find
> on the net on how to properly remove and install a natural gas home hot
> water heater. I'll summarize the steps we plan on taking in a subsequent
> posting.
>
> So far, Bill bought $686.47 in parts while I write up every step for him
> before we do the work tomorrow, together. He will return any unused parts,
> but here is what he bought from Sears today to get ready for the job.
>
> $449.00 Sears #33154 50-gallon 12/1 year hot water heater 97FHR .63EF
> $ 2.19 1-ounce TFE paste (for the gas pipe fittings)
> $ 9.59 3/4-inch quarter-turn water valve (replaces plastic drain valve)
> $ 8.99 3/4-inch CSA gas ball valve (for the gas line)
> $ 15.99 3/4-inch swing check valve (for additional heat-loss protection)
> $ 7.99 18" 3/4-inch by 3/4 inch FIP corrugated copper/brass flex pipe
> (x2)
> $ 7.49 15" 3/4-inch by 3/4 inch FIP corrugated copper/brass flex pipe
> (x2)
> $ 5.99 12" 3/4-inch by 3/4 inch FIP corrugated copper/brass flex pipe
> (x2)
> $ 12.99 18" 3/4-inch stainless-steel water-heater connector pipe (x2)
> $ 10.99 12" 3/4-inch stainless-steel water-heater connector pipe (x2)
> $ 8.99 3/4-inch by 3/4-inch Dialectric Union B (x4)
> $ 3.59 1.5-inch long 3/4-inch male:male brass pipe nipples (x4)
> $ 2.39 1.0-inch long 3/4-inch male:male brass pipe nipples (x3)
> $ 52.32 sales tax at 8.25%
> --------
> $686.47 total
>
> The reason for *both* the copper flex pipe and stainless steel pipe is
> because the stainless steel might allow us to not need the dialectric
> unions which are huge. Remember, the new tank is five inches taller than
> the old tank so we are going to have problems with the plumbing most
> likely
> so having fewer nipples and dialectric unions will shorten the lines a
> bit.
>
> Do we really need to isolate the copper from the brass from the steel?
> We assume so.
>
> Also, we bought the extra one-way check valve even though the water heater
> apparently comes with heat-loss protectors and we can s-kink the flex
> lines
> (not the steel lines, just the copper lines).
>
> Do you think the one-way hot-water-outlet check valve will work to slow
> heat loss?
>
> Note we didn't buy the insulating blanket for the water heater, nor the
> insulation for the hot-water pipes yet. We figured we could do that later.
>
> Our biggest question is whether we really needed the dialectric unions.
> Since they were female:female, that necessitated brass nipples on each
> side, further lengthening the lines which we need to shorten.
>
> What do you think?
> Donna & Bill

It would be worthwhile to check the local plumbing codes, there's a national
code, but additional requirements vary by location.

Assuming the original heater was properly installed, you should be fine to
do the new one exactly the same way. 3/4" seems awfully large for a water
heater, all those I've dealt with were plumbed with 1/2" gas pipe and 3/4"
water pipe. I'm not sure why the ball valve for the gas is being replaced as
well, isn't there already a suitable shutoff valve? If you mess with the gas
plumbing ahead of the shutoff, you have to pressure test it and have it
inspected. Assuming the original plumbing is not damaged, I would leave the
ball valve and everything ahead (closer to the gas meter) of it alone. Take
care to hold the pipe so that it doesn't rotate and cause leaks at the
joints when you disconnect it from the valve. Replace the flexible pipe
between the heater and gas pipe in the house, you may or may not have to
rearange the pipe from the heater to the flex depending on the location.

I can't speak for your area, but here the standard setup is black iron pipe
in the house, with a 1/2" branch split off for the water heater. This goes
directly to a ball valve to shut off the gas to that appliance, and out of
that is a short length of black iron joining to a stainless flex which then
connects to another short piece of black iron, occasionally with an elbow or
two to change direction and connect up to the gas valve on the heater. Older
houses often lack the stainless flex and instead do the whole thing with
black iron using a ground joint union between the ball valve and the heater
to let you put it all together, but I like the flex better, it's a lot
easier to get things lined up.

When you do the flue vent, sometimes it goes straight up through the roof,
in that case you'll probably have to get up on top and remove a screw or two
through the roof jack to allow you to push the pipe up through the ceiling
to let you slide the heaters in and out. If it goes off at an angle and tees
into the furnace flue or goes through a wall, you can usually flex it enough
to work. Take extra care to get the vent right, a gas leak you'll smell, a
water leak you'll see, but an exhaust leak will just kill you.

As for insulation, often the water heater will come with some sections of
pipe insulation to take care of the flex lines in and out of it.

== 3 of 12 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 3:28 pm
From: "James Sweet"

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
message news:iG_tj.830$pl4.586@newssvr22.news.prodigy.net...
> On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 11:37:36 -0600, msg wrote:
>> Are you planning on posting your photos and tutorial?
>> What would be the URL?
>
> I don't know.
>
> Last time I got help here was for the hot air furnace which needed to be
> taken apart and cleaned because the limit kept kicking in.
> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.home.repair/browse_thread/thread/94746b0668e8b6e5/41f1c7f208260970?lnk=gst&q=furnace+cleaned+donna+photo+posted#41f1c7f208260970
>
> I posted *those* clogged-furnace pictures here
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/23329283@N07/
>
> But nobody seemed to care so I wasn't sure whether it would help or not to
> post my pictures of a mundane (to you guys!) hot water heater replacement
> job.
>
> Donna

Wow, that's a nasty filthy clogged up evaporator. I bet your A/C bill was a
lot lower after cleaning that as well, and it probably kept the house a lot
cooler.

== 4 of 12 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 3:29 pm
From: "James Sweet"

>
> This is much like what a software engineer does when writing routine or
> complex software, is it not?
>

Very much so, the good ones anyway.

== 5 of 12 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 3:33 pm
From: "James Sweet"

>
> I was wondering why some hot water heater repair guides said to use Teflon
> tape (TPFE?) on the water lines but pipe dope (TPE?) on the gas lines yet
> the tube that I bought says it works for both gas and water. That's
> confusing. I was careful to only state in my hot water heater step by step
> guide just what I had read in other guides, taking the best except where
> they conflicted.
>

It's mostly a matter of preference. When using teflon tape, there's yellow
stuff rated for fuel use which is what you should use on gas lines, or you
can use pipe dope. A book I have on plumbing which is written by a long time
plumber recommends using both, and indeed I've started doing that on gas
lines and have yet to have a leak. Put on a thin coat of pipe dope, wrap a
couple layers of teflon tape tightly, then brush a little pipe dope over
that and screw it in. Make sure the tape stays on the threads and doesn't
scrunch back when you thread it in, and screw it down tight enough but not
too tight, I know that's probably not very helpful but I don't know how to
describe it. Use a pipe wrench, they're cheap. I use a pair of vice grip
pliars to hold the existing pipe so I don't unscrew it while unscrewing
fittings from that.

== 6 of 12 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 3:56 pm
From: trader4@optonline.net

On Feb 17, 10:52 am, "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"
<donna....@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 05:44:55 -0800 (PST), trad...@optonline.net wrote:
> > I don't know why you continue to dismiss a 12 year warranty on the
> > water heater as useless. You seem to be saying that because that is
> > about the typical life of a water heater, that the warranty is of no
> > value. Yet you value a 1 year warranty on labor?
>
> Hi Trader,
>
> Thanks for keeping up on this. Maybe I'm wrong on the warrantee but I took
> logic in college and the warrantee seems like a useless marketing tool to
> me when I read through what I have to do in order to "make good" on it.
>
> It's hard for me to write this reply because I feel the warranty is only an
> advertising gimmick which, to me, is only useful for the first year, mainly
> because I'm never going to take the water heater apart and bring it to the
> store to obtain the "free" replacement after the first year

You don't have to take the water heater anywhere. As I said, when my
State had the thermocouple fail, all I did was call State up. They
looked it up on their database, determined it was under warranty, and
I had a replacement on my doorstep in 2 days. No charge, no sending
parts back.

Now, I don't know exactly how they handle the case where you have a
leaking water heater. Perhaps they have a local rep or dealer take a
look at it. But I'm sure they don't want you shipping the water
heater back to them.

- and - the
> alternative is to pay as much for the labor as the entire water heater cost
> in the first place - so the "free" replacement costs just as much as the
> original parts if I have a plumber come to me to inspect, diagnose, and
> replace it.

If the water heater fails, then you need a new one, don't you?
Without the warranty, you're out not only the labor, but also the cost
of buying a new water heater, which is ~$400.

The warrantee seems absolutely useless to me, after the first
> year given those realistic concerns.

It fails in year seven. With a 10 year warranty, you get a either
free parts or a new tank. Without it, you get zippos and the labor is
the same.

>
> Worse than that, I read the entire text of the Sears "12-year limited
> warranty" which intimates Sears will replace parts that are defective and
> the water heater itself *only* if it develops a leak (no other replacement
> is warranted).

Well, what did you expect? That sounds perfectly reasonable to me.
If the thermocouple, valve, burner assembly, etc go, you get those
parts. If the tank goes, you get a whole new unit.

>
> > installing it yourself, there is no labor anyway,
> > so why is that even an issue?
>
> This is the ENTIRE issue! If I have to remove the entire water heater in
> order to bring it to the store just to see if they'll warrant the parts or
> the leaking tank, that's absolutely crazy!

Who said you have to bring it to the store?

Do people really remove their
> water heater, truck it in the back of their car to the store, have someone
> at the store look at it and decide whether or not to replace the parts,
> then, if they decide not to, you truck it back home and re-install it? Or,
> if they decide to replace the parts, they hand you the new parts and you
> truck the whole drippy thing back home to re-install it? I think not.

If you read my previous post, I told you exactly how State handled my
warranty claim.

>
> If I need to make good on the warrantee, the only way I'll ever do it is to
> call a Sears plumber at 800-469-4663 who will likely charge me as much for
> the visit as the thing cost in the first place. Sure, I'll get a new water
> heater - and it will cost me exactly what it cost when I bought it
> considering I MUST use their labor. I have no choice this second time
> around.

Does anything in the warranty say you have to use a Sears plumber?
My State warranty had no reqt as to who had to make the repair. I
made the repair myself and State had no problem simply supplying the
parts.

>
> My whole point is the automobile analogy you provided is exactly opposite
> of reality! You can easily DRIVE the car to the dealership to get a part
> diagnosed and fixed but to drive your water heater to the Sears store would
> be ludicrous (for me).

I didn't drive mine anywhere.

>
> Do you see why the automobile analogy doesn't apply for a water heater?
> Bringing the water heater to the dealer isn't an option.
> To bring the dealer to the water heater costs as much as the water heater.
> It's that simple to me.

Even if it were true that you had to bring the water heater back to
where you bought it, your statement still wouldn't be true. Let's
see. Water heater is spewing water from a shot tank. It's under
warranty. Either way it has to be removed. Once it's out, under your
scenario, you could take it back to where you bought it and get a new
one for free. How does it cost $400 to take it back? Or you could
go buy a new one for $400 and then do what with the old one? Many
places you have to take it somewhere anyway to get rid of it. If
you're getting a new one, it seems you could certainly take the old
one back to the store. But I don't think this is a realistic
scenario. They aren't going to expect you to drag the old one to
them and they don't want it.

>
> Donna

== 7 of 12 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 4:16 pm
From: "hallerb@aol.com"

i was selling a home and the jerk home inspector failed the brand new
hot water tanks gas valve, and required it be installed by a licensed
plumber.

the tanks manufacturer sent out a whole new controller within 2 days.

the plumber reported no leak on the original one, just a home
inspector wanting to justify his fee.

plumber who i know said that sort of thing is common

== 8 of 12 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 4:22 pm
From: Nate Nagel

hallerb@aol.com wrote:
> i was selling a home and the jerk home inspector failed the brand new
> hot water tanks gas valve, and required it be installed by a licensed
> plumber.
>
> the tanks manufacturer sent out a whole new controller within 2 days.
>
> the plumber reported no leak on the original one, just a home
> inspector wanting to justify his fee.
>
> plumber who i know said that sort of thing is common
>

I guess I must be lucky, the guy that did our home inspection was very
nice and the only thing I can fault him on is the stuff he missed, and
all of the stuff he missed he couldn't have seen without removing cover
plates, moving ceiling tiles, etc. which he probably couldn't have done.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

== 9 of 12 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 4:36 pm
From: clams_casino

Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator wrote:

>On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 11:04:53 -0500, clams_casino wrote:
>On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 11:04:53 -0500, clams_casino wrote:
>
>
>>Do get it right. A family recently died of carbon monoxide poisoning
>>
>>
>
>Hi clams,
>
>We *are* doing it right. That's why I'm here in the first place. To get it
>right. I do appreciate the help. From everyone. And, I'll give back by
>posting the tutorial for others like us to follow.
>
>In fact, we feel we're possibly doing it *better* than a plumber might, at
>least in terms of raw material. It seems to us (unsubstantiated opinion)
>that a plumber might tend to maximize his *time* and not necessarily the
>quality of the materials - unless specifically asked to by the homeowner
>(who must correspondingly be willing to pay for the extra parts cost and
>labor).
>
>Bill is in his final shower as we speak. The gas is off.
>
>He can sing in that steaming hot shower for as long as he likes and, for
>once, I won't be on his back about wasting the hot water!
>
>Donna
>
>

This has been a very informative thread. I didn't appreciate that our
15-year old water heater (61 gallon - State / 0.55 ER) is likely on
borrowed time. The first one in our home was replaced after just 8
years (previous owner). As someone pointed out, now is probably a good
time to start researching a replacement.

== 10 of 12 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 5:54 pm
From: "hallerb@aol.com"

On Feb 17, 7:36�pm, clams_casino <PeterGrif...@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:
> Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 11:04:53 -0500, clams_casino wrote:
> >On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 11:04:53 -0500, clams_casino wrote:
>
> >>Do get it right. � A family recently died of carbon monoxide poisoning
>
> >Hi clams,
>
> >We *are* doing it right. That's why I'm here in the first place. To get it
> >right. I do appreciate the help. From everyone. And, I'll give back by
> >posting the tutorial for others like us to follow.
>
> >In fact, we feel we're possibly doing it *better* than a plumber might, at
> >least in terms of raw material. It seems to us (unsubstantiated opinion)
> >that a plumber might tend to maximize his *time* and not necessarily the
> >quality of the materials - unless specifically asked to by the homeowner
> >(who must correspondingly be willing to pay for the extra parts cost and
> >labor).
>
> >Bill is in his final shower as we speak. The gas is off.
>
> >He can sing in that steaming hot shower for as long as he likes and, for
> >once, I won't be on his back about wasting the hot water!
>
> >Donna
>
> This has been a very informative thread. � I didn't appreciate that our
> 15-year old water heater (61 gallon - State / 0.55 ER) is likely on
> borrowed time. � The first one in our home was replaced after just 8
> years (previous owner). � As someone pointed out, now is probably a good
> time to start researching a replacement.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

i take a different view, after having one start leaking with house
guests coming right before christmas.

i replace mine at the time of my choosing, on my schedule.

peace of mind and lack of hassles plus no worry about water leak
damage, and can shop around for best deal, and get better efficency
from new tank and i went larger with a high output tank.

do you wait for everything you own to totally quit before replacing?

hot water tanks are low cost.

my current one is 7 years old. its on borrowed time

== 11 of 12 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 6:16 pm
From: clams_casino

hallerb@aol.com wrote:

>On Feb 17, 7:36�pm, clams_casino <PeterGrif...@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 11:04:53 -0500, clams_casino wrote:
>>>On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 11:04:53 -0500, clams_casino wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Do get it right. � A family recently died of carbon monoxide poisoning
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Hi clams,
>>>
>>>
>>>We *are* doing it right. That's why I'm here in the first place. To get it
>>>right. I do appreciate the help. From everyone. And, I'll give back by
>>>posting the tutorial for others like us to follow.
>>>
>>>
>>>In fact, we feel we're possibly doing it *better* than a plumber might, at
>>>least in terms of raw material. It seems to us (unsubstantiated opinion)
>>>that a plumber might tend to maximize his *time* and not necessarily the
>>>quality of the materials - unless specifically asked to by the homeowner
>>>(who must correspondingly be willing to pay for the extra parts cost and
>>>labor).
>>>
>>>
>>>Bill is in his final shower as we speak. The gas is off.
>>>
>>>
>>>He can sing in that steaming hot shower for as long as he likes and, for
>>>once, I won't be on his back about wasting the hot water!
>>>
>>>
>>>Donna
>>>
>>>
>>This has been a very informative thread. � I didn't appreciate that our
>>15-year old water heater (61 gallon - State / 0.55 ER) is likely on
>>borrowed time. � The first one in our home was replaced after just 8
>>years (previous owner). � As someone pointed out, now is probably a good
>>time to start researching a replacement.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>>- Show quoted text -
>>
>>
>
>i take a different view, after having one start leaking with house
>guests coming right before christmas.
>
>i replace mine at the time of my choosing, on my schedule.
>
>peace of mind and lack of hassles plus no worry about water leak
>damage, and can shop around for best deal, and get better efficency
>from new tank and i went larger with a high output tank.
>
>do you wait for everything you own to totally quit before replacing?
>
>
>
Generally speaking, yes. I tend to drive cars until they get to the
point (providing regular maintenance) of requiring significant repairs
(as a second car, always maintaining a good first car).

I don't expect to replace appliances (vacuum cleaner, dish washer,
stove, refrigerator, washer, dryer, toaster, etc) until they are in
need of repair. It's at that point when I typically determine if its
cost effective to replace or repair (typically it's best to toss at that
point). I also wait for light bulbs to burn out, etc. My three lawn
mowers each last about 15 years... till they died.

What other items do you replace on a regular basis?

== 12 of 12 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 6:35 pm
From: jim

On Feb 17, 11:24 am, "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"
<donna....@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 10:52:25 -0600, Vic Smith wrote:
> > I've never used flex on a hot water heater, but suppose that flex
> > connectors have the di-electric insulator built in. Should be some
> > specs attached to that type of connector.
>
> Hi Vic,
>
> There is a black rubber grommet inside the copper flex tube's brass
> fittings. Maybe that's the dialectric; but it's tremendously smaller than
> the fist-sized dialectric unions we bought yesterday.
>
> Donna

If your pipes are galvanized you don't need di-electric fittings
Right and you are who certianaly not a plumber just a Mike Holmes
wannabe, if you conect copper to galvenized you better use them but
then Iam only a master plumber so what would I know

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Dolce and Gabbana Handbag Find Sale Prices on Dolce and Gabbana
Handbags
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/1df1d3a4b660733d?hl=en
==============================================================================

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==============================================================================
TOPIC: cold water detergent
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/28e84033bdbeafba?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 3:45 pm
From: Jeff

Marsha wrote:
> Anyone have a recommendation?

I haven't seen anything other than cold water tide. I have a friend that
uses it always on cold. I tend to use it with warm. Not the best
recommendation I guess!

Jeff

>
> Marsha/Ohio
>

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 6:47 pm
From: Shawn Hirn

In article <fp9k91$a09$1@news.datemas.de>, Marsha <mas@xeb.net> wrote:

> Anyone have a recommendation?
>
> Marsha/Ohio

Tide works for me.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Dollar Tree, Victor NY, worst customer service ever
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/afd0336a0edfead1?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 4:11 pm
From: George Grapman

On Feb 14, 8:30 am, Seerialmom <seerial...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Feb 11, 5:47 pm, George Grapman <sfgeo...@paccbell.net> wrote:
>
> > Until recently the local Safeway was was regularly understocked. On
> > several occasions I walked in and walked out. One time I got the
> > checkout and there were only two lines each with about 10 customers. I
> > found a manager and told him I had abandoned my cart. He apologized and
> > said he was advising customers to call the corporate 800 number to tell
> > them the dollar amount of the lost business. It might have worked as
> > they are rarely understaffed now.
>
> did you mean "understaffed"?

Yes.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Don't pay for ring tones etc.
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/b939ef0b086c065b?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 4:33 pm
From: "AllEmailDeletedImmediately"

"Seerialmom" <seerialmom@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1189801334.810423.255950@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
> On Sep 14, 7:56 am, George Grapman <sfgeo...@paccbell.net> wrote:
>> Of course you have to give them your phone number and the the contact
>> info is limited to a form that you send to them.
>
> Even more likely that was a spam...since the newer phones let you
> transfer MP3's in to use as ring tones, anyway...no website or special
> software needed.

not true. dh's phone is with verizon, and the only way to get a ringtone
is from verizon. he can upload mp3s all day, but can't use them as a
ringtone.

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 5:08 pm
From: George

Gordon wrote:
> At the risk of looking like spam...
> I have no connection with this site, but I like it
> because it saves me money and it flips a finger at
> the grubby cellphone companies that try to rake in
> extra cash by forcing you to buy what should be free.
>
> See, I got frustrated because the LG Fusic phone I got
> with my Sprint plan didn't have the capability to allow
> me to load mp3 ringers from my computer. Instead they wanted me
> to buy ringers and download them. That's just plain wrong.
>
> So I eventally found this site:
>
> http://www.funformobile.com/pages/ringtone/uploadRingtone.php
>
> What you do is create an MP3 ring tone, or use a popular
> song in mp3 format. You goto this site and and upload
> it. Then you get a text message on your phone with a
> special URL that you open to download the ringer into your
> phone. Completely bypassing the need to buy ringtones from
> Sprint or others.
>
> It also works for screen savers and wakllpaper too.

Be careful with stuff like this. I have heard a number of people tell me
that they were billed after getting their "free" ringtones. It seems
that you agree somewhere that it is OK for them to bill you via your
cellular carrier much in the same way long distance carriers do. One
person even showed me their bill.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 5:19 pm
From: George Grapman

George wrote:
> Gordon wrote:
>> At the risk of looking like spam...
>> I have no connection with this site, but I like it
>> because it saves me money and it flips a finger at the grubby
>> cellphone companies that try to rake in
>> extra cash by forcing you to buy what should be free.
>>
>> See, I got frustrated because the LG Fusic phone I got
>> with my Sprint plan didn't have the capability to allow
>> me to load mp3 ringers from my computer. Instead they wanted me
>> to buy ringers and download them. That's just plain wrong.
>>
>> So I eventally found this site:
>>
>> http://www.funformobile.com/pages/ringtone/uploadRingtone.php
>>
>> What you do is create an MP3 ring tone, or use a popular
>> song in mp3 format. You goto this site and and upload
>> it. Then you get a text message on your phone with a special URL that
>> you open to download the ringer into your
>> phone. Completely bypassing the need to buy ringtones from
>> Sprint or others.
>>
>> It also works for screen savers and wakllpaper too.
>
> Be careful with stuff like this. I have heard a number of people tell me
> that they were billed after getting their "free" ringtones. It seems
> that you agree somewhere that it is OK for them to bill you via your
> cellular carrier much in the same way long distance carriers do. One
> person even showed me their bill.

Unless they can prove you agreed to psy them you can refuse the charge.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: $45us/pc H.I.D Conversion Kit
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/fa00c095b81a2ef4?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 4:48 pm
From: llfllfllfllf@163.com

100% Customer Satisfaction Guarantee check the quality before you pay

In www.housinghouse.com

you can check the quality before you pay,The
detailed information following:

1) Paypal us the UPS charges before the shipment.

2) Ship the items out.

3) Get the items and check its quality.

4) Paypal the balance.

5) The quota for each person should be one HID kit.

6) This is just available for the first deal, for the further order,
you need to pay the total payment before the shipment.

7) This promotion is just available for HID Conversion Kit、HID Xenon
Bulb、HID Ballast.

If you want to know more detail information, you can send email to
customerservice@housinghouse.com.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 4:49 pm
From: llfllfllfllf@163.com

100% Customer Satisfaction Guarantee check the quality before you pay

In www.housinghouse.com

you can check the quality before you pay,The
detailed information following:

1) Paypal us the UPS charges before the shipment.

2) Ship the items out.

3) Get the items and check its quality.

4) Paypal the balance.

5) The quota for each person should be one HID kit.

6) This is just available for the first deal, for the further order,
you need to pay the total payment before the shipment.

7) This promotion is just available for HID Conversion Kit、HID Xenon
Bulb、HID Ballast.

If you want to know more detail information, you can send email to
customerservice@housinghouse.com.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Tips on frugal living in the Philadelphia region
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/26215b0a650faf56?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 5:55 pm
From: "mcs"

just ignore that the people and families here are targeted for more health
care commercials while getting more days of air that is not good then most
cities in N. hemisphere. If you think f rated air, most asthma, most
respiratory deaths , most mortality for certain women, almost the most
murders per population, not many professional or amaterus win anything
aerobically speaking for longest time and most depression and rated bottom
94 percentile in air quality and all this isn't more important I got a great
city TURNAROUND to worry about hype instead.
"Joe" <useful_infos@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:8e42315a-a4fa-4497-a387-d07dbc89cc89@p25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> http://home.comcast.net/~plutarch/frugal-philly.html
>

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Frugal Living

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Sunday, February 17, 2008

25 new messages in 9 topics - digest

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