Frugal Living: Dec 27, 2007

Thursday, December 27, 2007

25 new messages in 14 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

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TOPIC: Rodspeed, you think gift cards are barter that states are afraid will
take off?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/afb5c825dd0557e7?hl=en
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== 1 of 8 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 27 2007 11:15 am
From: Copper_water_oxygen

I'll add that some small towns in New England have utilized local
dollars as a means of pooling cooperation or stimulating growth. I
believe the IRS tries to keep an eye on that kind of barter. like I
have been reminded, all we have is our labor and materials from which
to build economies and societies.You can put a person in jail for
fixing some ones car for free or exchange for a good meal if the two
parties agree on a contractual basis for such, but the state sure can
oversee the tools and parts and place that the car repair happens
with. Oh yeah, the state can control licenses too.

== 2 of 8 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 27 2007 11:16 am
From: George Grapmam

Copper_water_oxygen wrote:
> Lately, states have gotten wind of laying claim to all that money
> sitting in unused gift cards as a right, saying they are unclaimed
> property and should be put in public coiffures. Do you think maybe,
> just maybe, state governments are afraid of not only losing out on the
> money grab with those dormant cards, but could see that people will
> adapt bartering in the future more and need to put an end to that?
> Gift cards supposedly equal a dollar amount of goods/services. They
> can be traded, sold or redeemed maybe. People could create their own
> barter gift cards in the years to come with the help of places like
> Ebay , where as long as you can stay one step ahead of regulators, the
> law and internet service providers, you can sell anything or auction
> off anything. I have a theory that along with inflation, the
> government needs to keep people from getting real gains on debts the
> government issues by keeping them from finding marketplace values of
> common things easily. I know it sounds crazy, but citizens could very
> well figure out how to barter or construct underground economies and
> cut out the middle man government. How would we get groceries,
> gasoline and health care and pay for road tolls? Those things would
> eventually adapt the new currency methods that local economies or
> banks exchange in. Well, eventually the politicians that instituted
> all the laws and regulations in adherence with the revenue streams of
> taxes and fees would be booted out as commerce and currency
> revised.LOL. So, possibly, politicians do recognize that people can
> wake up and vote them out into private world competing against those
> underground, barter based markets.

I think about that whenever a value added tax is discussed.
By the way, many types of pre-paid products have breakage factored
in, meaning part of the product that is never redeemed.
Phone cards have expiration dates (there is some legitimacy to this
as otherwise the unused time remains on the books as a debit) and if the
card has less money remaining than to cost of a one minute call the
customers loses unless the card can be recharged.
Our local transit system ,BART, allows you to add fare to a card but
only from a single card so if you have two cards each with a dollar on
them you can only add time to one of them and have to put the other away
for another time.BART claims the technology does not allow this but the
race tracks allow you to combine multiple vouchers for a single new one.

== 3 of 8 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 27 2007 11:31 am
From: Copper_water_oxygen

On Dec 27, 2:16 pm, George Grapmam <sfgeo...@paccbell.net> wrote:
> I think about that whenever a value added tax is discussed.
> By the way, many types of pre-paid products have breakage factored
> in, meaning part of the product that is never redeemed.
> Phone cards have expiration dates (there is some legitimacy to this
> as otherwise the unused time remains on the books as a debit) and if the
> card has less money remaining than to cost of a one minute call the
> customers loses unless the card can be recharged.
> Our local transit system ,BART, allows you to add fare to a card but
> only from a single card so if you have two cards each with a dollar on
> them you can only add time to one of them and have to put the other away
> for another time.BART claims the technology does not allow this but the
> race tracks allow you to combine multiple vouchers for a single new one.

They probably are hedging their bets you will lose one of those cards.
Only a guess, but along with those rebates and extended warranties,
and breakage stats, our state and fed governments recognize that they
need to contain their expenditures or services with some easy control
methods like time expirations and wear and tear aspects to things. Can
you imagine if there are layoffs in government by the boatload in the
years to come? Government would not look like such a trough to feed
from by many points of view then.

== 4 of 8 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 27 2007 11:39 am
From: Copper_water_oxygen

http://news.cincypost.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071225/BIZ/712250307/1001

== 5 of 8 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 27 2007 11:44 am
From: George Grapmam

Copper_water_oxygen wrote:
> On Dec 27, 2:16 pm, George Grapmam <sfgeo...@paccbell.net> wrote:
>> I think about that whenever a value added tax is discussed.
>> By the way, many types of pre-paid products have breakage factored
>> in, meaning part of the product that is never redeemed.
>> Phone cards have expiration dates (there is some legitimacy to this
>> as otherwise the unused time remains on the books as a debit) and if the
>> card has less money remaining than to cost of a one minute call the
>> customers loses unless the card can be recharged.
>> Our local transit system ,BART, allows you to add fare to a card but
>> only from a single card so if you have two cards each with a dollar on
>> them you can only add time to one of them and have to put the other away
>> for another time.BART claims the technology does not allow this but the
>> race tracks allow you to combine multiple vouchers for a single new one.
>
> They probably are hedging their bets you will lose one of those cards.
> Only a guess, but along with those rebates and extended warranties,
> and breakage stats, our state and fed governments recognize that they
> need to contain their expenditures or services with some easy control
> methods like time expirations and wear and tear aspects to things. Can
> you imagine if there are layoffs in government by the boatload in the
> years to come? Government would not look like such a trough to feed
> from by many points of view then.

Lost and misplaced cards are factored into their projections.
By the way, in most states the proceeds from uncased vouchers or
winning bets at race tracks revert to the state. On the other hand it id
very easy to cash them in CA as all tracks a simulcast facilities here
allow to you cash in tickets from any other facility in the state.

== 6 of 8 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 27 2007 12:03 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

Copper_water_oxygen <kwokx2@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Lately, states have gotten wind of laying claim to all that money
> sitting in unused gift cards as a right, saying they are unclaimed
> property and should be put in public coiffures.

Whats a public coiffure ? W's haircut ? Presumably you mean coffers |-(

> Do you think maybe, just maybe, state governments are
> afraid of not only losing out on the money grab with those
> dormant cards, but could see that people will adapt
> bartering in the future more and need to put an end to that?

Nope, its just the usual attempt by govt to grab whatever it can lay its hands on.

They do it with inactive bank accounts too, so it cant have anything to do with barter.

> Gift cards supposedly equal a dollar amount of goods/services.
> They can be traded, sold or redeemed maybe. People could
> create their own barter gift cards in the years to come with
> the help of places like Ebay , where as long as you can stay
> one step ahead of regulators, the law and internet service
> providers, you can sell anything or auction off anything.

You can do that without bothering with cards. People have been doing it
for years now, swapping labor etc in areas that they are skilled in etc.

Its essentially an attempt to do an end run around the taxation system.

> I have a theory that along with inflation, the government needs to keep
> people from getting real gains on debts the government issues by
> keeping them from finding marketplace values of common things easily.

They can never really do that, most obviously
with gold and diamonds etc being used for that.

> I know it sounds crazy, but citizens could very well
> figure out how to barter or construct underground
> economies and cut out the middle man government.

Its more avoiding the taxation than cutting out the middle man.

The hippys have been doing that sort of thing for centurys now.

> How would we get groceries, gasoline and health care and pay
> for road tolls? Those things would eventually adapt the new
> currency methods that local economies or banks exchange in.

> Well, eventually the politicians that instituted all the laws and
> regulations in adherence with the revenue streams of taxes and
> fees would be booted out as commerce and currency revised.LOL.

Thats never going to happen, essentially because
most find the current system more convenient.

> So, possibly, politicians do recognize that people can
> wake up and vote them out into private world competing
> against those underground, barter based markets.

Nope, they realise that its never going to happen.

It didnt even come close in the 60s when it arguably did peak.

> I'll add that some small towns in New England have utilized local
> dollars as a means of pooling cooperation or stimulating growth.
> I believe the IRS tries to keep an eye on that kind of barter.

Yep, its obviously just an attempt to avoid taxation.

> like I have been reminded, all we have is our labor and materials
> from which to build economies and societies.You can put a person
> in jail for fixing some ones car for free or exchange for a good meal
> if the two parties agree on a contractual basis for such, but the state
> sure can oversee the tools and parts and place that the car repair
> happens with. Oh yeah, the state can control licenses too.

But can never do much about doing stuff for one of your neighbours for free etc.

== 7 of 8 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 27 2007 12:15 pm
From: Copper_water_oxygen

It is all about taxation.

How do we get a government that spends with an aim of lifting all of
us up?

== 8 of 8 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 27 2007 12:50 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

Copper_water_oxygen <kwokx2@hotmail.com> wrote

> It is all about taxation.

Nope, its actually about an economy where the govt is close
to irrelevant except to limit the worse excesses of capitalism
like with monopolys and consumer safety etc.

> How do we get a government that spends with an aim of lifting all of us up?

Modern first world economys dont work like that.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: UN official calls biofuel schemes a "crime against humanity! Food riots
around the world! Bush bill wil starve the world!
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/d74a7292558d763e?hl=en
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== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 27 2007 1:39 pm
From: "calderhome@yahoo.com"

On Dec 25, 9:30 pm, "Rod Speed" <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote:

"Roger Speed" obviously needs a psychiatrist ASAP

THE BIOFUEL HOAX IS CAUSING A WORLD FOOD CRISIS!

at:

http://home.att.net/~meditation/bio-fuel-hoax.html

On December 19th, 2007, George W. Bush signed into law an
historic energy bill that mandates massive increases in the production
of ethanol, which is to be used as "biofuel" to run automobiles and
trucks. Ethanol is currently made from corn and other foodstuffs, and
all of the various forms of biofuel, including "biodiesel," are made
from food or from inedible crops which displace normal agricultural
activity. Even at current limited levels of biofuel production, this
"renewable energy source" has already caused huge increases in the
price of food around the world, which can be experienced firsthand at
any supermarket in America. Unfortunately, consumers/voters are
undereducated as to exactly why food prices have risen so
dramatically.

The United Nations has officially stated that its charity
programs can no longer afford to feed the starving peoples of the
world because of high food costs created by biofuel production.
Earlier this year, Jean Ziegler, the UN's Special Rapporteur on the
Right to Food, denounced biofuels as "a crime against humanity" and
called for a five-year moratorium on their production. Local food
banks in the United States are running low on supplies, and many
families who use to contribute to food banks are now in need of help
themselves. When farmers plant more corn in order to cash in on
artificially high prices created by political biofuel mandates, they
reduce production of other crops, and thus food prices rise across the
board. We use corn to feed chickens and cattle, so the price of
poultry, eggs, beef, and dairy products have risen substantially and
will continue to rise with no end in sight.

The advocacy and use of biofuels is one of the greatest political
hoaxes in American history. The ideology of biofuel production sounds
wholesome superficially, a kind of green, health food store way of
producing energy. The problem is that the entire biofuel scheme is
based on lies and political selfishness, without any legitimate
science based ecological justification.

1) Biofuel production starves the poor and reduces our standard of
living by dramatically increasing the cost of food, which we all need
just to survive. Of course the homeless, the elderly, the disabled,
and those living on Social Security and other fixed incomes are the
hardest hit.

2) Biofuel production increases our Federal budget deficit because it
demands large subsidies to exist. Without massive Federal subsidies
and political mandates, there would be no significant free market
demand for biofuels at all. Biofuel schemes are energy socialism gone
wrong.

3) Biofuel production harms the environment by needlessly eroding
topsoil and encouraging the destruction of forests, which are
desperately needed to soak up excess carbon dioxide from the
atmosphere. Carbon dioxide (C02) is the major greenhouse gas that
causes global warming, and the two great sponges of carbon dioxide are
the oceans and the forests. The oceans are losing their ability to
absorb C02 as they are becoming increasingly acidic due to pollution,
so if we also destroy our forests global warming will accelerate that
much faster. Do we really want to cut down forests all over the
world, from Indonesia to Pennsylvania, just to have more land to grow
corn, soybeans, palm oil, sugarcane, and other crops to burn as fuel
in our SUVs? Biofuel schemes speed up global warming because the
entire biofuel production process, from beginning to end, releases
huge amounts of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere while destroying
native forests which naturally clean and rejuvenate the air we
breathe.

Roland Clift, a senior science advisor to the British government,
has stated that British plans to promote ethanol and biodiesel
produced from plants is a "scam." On the subject of tropical
biodiesel production, Clift states that "Biodiesel is a complete scam
because in the tropics the growing demand is causing forests to be
burnt to make way for palm oil and similar crops. "We calculate that
the land will need to grow biodiesel crops for 70-300 years to
compensate for the CO2 emitted in forest destruction." On British
plans to produce home grown biodiesel from rapeseed, Clift points to
research showing the crop generates copious amounts of nitrous oxide,
an even more powerful global warming gas than CO2.

Biofuel production will aggravate water shortages world wide
because water is diverted to grow biofuel crops and thus taken away
from our shrinking supplies of safe drinking water. Biofuel use also
demands a dramatic increase in the production of fertilizers made from
natural gas, coal and mined minerals in a messy industrial process
which unleashes even more greenhouse gases. Biofuels are a losing
proposition on every level, except for the big profits giant
agricultural corporations will make producing them.

4) Biofuels schemes are a scientific hoax and an economic fraud
because they take more energy to produce than they yield in the form
of the biofuel itself. We have to use large amounts of coal, natural
gas, and oil just to produce biofuels. The economic numbers for
biofuel production do not add up any way you look at them, and at the
December, 2007, Conference on Climate Change held in Bali, Indonesia,
several studies were presented detailing the dangers of making
automobile fuels from crops. Respected scientists warned that biofuel
production is destructive to the environment and will not give us the
clean "renewable energy" its advocates claim. Just a few days after
the Bali conference ended, America's political leaders enacted a new
law mandating massive increases in biofuel production, the science and
the facts be damned.

5) The biofuel hoax in the United States is fueled to a large degree
by domestic American politics and corporate greed. Both the
Republican and Democratic political parties want to get the "farm
vote" in politically strategic farming states like Iowa, Ohio, and
Nebraska. Our politicians have put political gain ahead of the
world's starving poor, the elderly on fixed incomes, and the welfare
of the American middle class. Rich politicians can afford to pay the
dramatically higher food bills that biofuel production creates, and
they have decided to throw science to the wind and charge blindly into
what will inevitably be branded as one of the most destructive
political fiascoes of the 21st century.

6) Making cellulosic ethanol from lignocellulose, a structural
material that comprises much of the mass of plants, is better than
making ethanol from corn, but it still has most of the drawbacks
listed for ethanol made from food crops. Growing lignocellulose
yielding grasses on land we currently use to graze cattle will
increase the price of beef and milk. We will still have to use
fertilizers made from natural gas and coal to make inedible crops
grow, and the entire process will erode topsoil and increase the price
of food. If we grow switchgrass for ethanol production on "marginal"
prairie land, we will soon turn that marginal land into a desert and a
dust bowl, which it may turn into anyway due to global warming, which
biofuel use will not stop.

Computer models for the progression of global warming show the
America Midwest and Southwest getting hotter and dryer, with much of
our farm and grazing land turning into desert. We know that biofuel
use will do nothing to stop this progression, so why are we pinning so
much hope on an environmental battle plan that any fool can see will
blow up in our face over time? We won't be able to produce enough
biofuels to run our cars, or enough food to fill our bellies! The
biofuel scheme is another example of a basic lack of intelligence of
our politicians, many of whom also voted for the disastrous Iraq war
despite the warnings of more thoughtful advisers. If you cannot plan
ahead and anticipate future trends, then you will lead this nation
into one disaster after another, which is exactly what is occurring in
Washington DC at this very moment. Our Congress has become a chorus
of stupidity, and our politicians are leading us to national suicide,
not to the nirvana of energy independence.

The very process of making cellulosic ethanol from switchgrass
and other plants has not been proven to be economically viable, and
the Bush energy bill assumes new scientific breakthroughs that have
not yet occurred. Many of the plants being proposed as lignocellulose
yielding crops are weeds which will have a destructive impact on
wildlife and biodiversity around the world. In practical terms, there
is not enough usable land area to grow a sufficient quantity of
biofuel plants to meet the world's energy demands.

The prospect of growing algae to make biodiesel has more positive
potential than making ethanol from switchgrass, but large open algae
sewage ponds are difficult to manage due to contamination from
invasive algae and bacteria, and the inherent problem of finding an
algae that will survive wide swings in temperature and pH. If a
sealed algae system can be developed that produces biodiesel on only a
small amount of land, and that produces much more energy than it takes
to manufacture, then algae based biodiesel might be a very positive
venture. To date there has been no proof that such a system is viable
or truly carbon neutral. If you have to run algae farms off the waste
of coal fired power plants, as has been proposed, then you have a band-
aid solution that will not stop global warming in its tracks, which is
what we need to do if we want our children and grandchildren to
survive on this planet.

Dramatic increases in food prices created by biofuel production
will cause political instability around the globe, because food
products are sold in a world wide marketplace just like oil. There
have already been mass public protests and food riots in Mexico,
Morocco, Uzbekistan, Yemen and Senegal over the high price of basic
staple foods. Imagine the political instability in Mexico, Central
and South America, Africa, India, and Pakistan that skyrocketing food
prices and mass starvation will cause. Will a starving Pakistan,
armed with nuclear weapons, make the world a safer place? If American
politicians lead us down a path to global use of biofuels, we will be
leading the world into a historic disaster that can easily kill more
people due to starvation than have been killed in the Iraq war by
bullets and bombs.

If we truly wish to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, and not just
waste time on destructive political scams, then we will have to create
an infrastructure based on nuclear energy, improved electric car
battery technology, and hydrogen fuel, not on ethanol and biofuels.
Hydrogen releases water vapor when burned and is the cleanest burning
fuel known to man. Hydrogen can be used in both internal combustion
engines and in fuel cells. Hydrogen fuel can be made through the
electrolysis of water via electricity generated from zero emissions
nuclear power plants, which currently produce about 19.4% of our
nation's electricity. We need to build large numbers of nuclear power
plants now using mass production techniques if we want to end global
warming. Otherwise, we will just continue talking endlessly about the
subject with no positive effect.

Nuclear power plants do not contribute to global warming because
they release no greenhouse gases at all. You do not need much land to
build a nuclear power plant, and you do not need to make fertilizer to
make nuclear energy grow. Nuclear power plants are not vulnerable to
attack by viruses, bacteria, fungi, insects, or competing weeds, as
are biofuel crops. We need to get off the organic carbon cycle for
energy production and use inorganic nuclear power to produce the
highly concentrated energy supply that solar and wind power can never
hope to provide. Even by the most optimistic estimates, solar and
wind power can only hope to satisfy perhaps 20% of our future energy
needs. Solar and wind power tap into natural energy sources that are
far too diffuse to be collected on a large enough scale to power an
advanced, industrialized nation. Solar and wind power currently
produce only about 2.4% of our nation's electricity, so even an
increase to 20% would be a major undertaking.

One of the added benefits of nuclear power is that we already own
huge amounts of nuclear fuel in the form of nuclear weapons materials,
which can be converted into fuel rods for civilian power production.
The United States Government has hundreds of years worth of nuclear
fuel in storage thanks to the cold war nuclear arms race of the 1950s
and 1960s. We can turn our swords into plowshares while paying only
the modest costs of converting high level weapons grade nuclear
materials into low level nuclear fuel rods suitable for power
production. Unlike oil, we do not have to import nuclear fuel from
foreign countries or fight endless foreign wars to protect our
supplies.

Nuclear fuel rods can be reprocessed over and over again because
only a tiny portion of the nuclear material is actually used up during
each fuel cycle. When you reprocess fuel rods there is very little
high level nuclear waste that needs to be stored. The nuclear "waste"
is simply reused as nuclear fuel, and that is part of the reason why
France's nuclear power program has been so successful. France relies
heavily on nuclear power plants and nuclear fuel reprocessing, and
thus France has the cleanest air and lowest electricity rates in
Europe.

The fears many Americans have about civilian nuclear power plants
are largely unfounded. Our latest nuclear reactor designs are
carefully engineered with many layers of redundant safety and security
features built-in. One single disaster that occurred in 1986 at an
obsolete Ukrainian reactor is no reason to be eternally afraid of all
civilian nuclear power plants across the board. The old Chernobyl
reactor used a dangerous design that has never been used in the West,
and which did not even have a containment vessel. The infamous
Chernobyl accident was caused by Soviet engineers conducting wildly
irresponsible experiments that were totally unrelated to normal
civilian power production, and which would never be allowed in the
USA. The Chernobyl nuclear accident killed a total of 56 people, a
great tragedy, but not a nation killing disaster. Far fewer people
died at Chernobyl than on Japan Airlines Flight 123 in 1985, when a
lone 747 jetliner crashed and killed all 520 passengers. Americans
suffer over 40,000 deaths due to automobile accidents every year, but
there is no great human cry to ban automobiles.

Nuclear power plants in America have an excellent record for
safety and for clean, pollution free operation. By contrast, the over
600 coal burning power plants in the United States which produce
approximately 49% of our nation's electricity emit sulfur dioxide
(SO2) and oxides of nitrogen (NOx) which combine with moisture in the
atmosphere to create destructive acid rain. Coal burning power plants
also release microscopic particulate matter which clog the lungs and
are attributed to causing approximately 24,000 unnatural premature
deaths in America every year, which is 428 times the Chernobyl death
toll.

Coal fired power plants in the USA release approximately 200,000
pounds of toxic mercury each year, and nearly 10% of global carbon
dioxide emissions, which represents an enormous river of skyward bound
greenhouse gas. On top of all of that, coal burning power plants
release radioactive materials into the atmosphere due to the natural
thorium and uranium content of coal. A single 1,000 megawatt coal-
burning power plant can release as much as 12.8 tons of radioactive
thorium every year, and 5.2 tons of uranium each year. The uranium
figure includes 74 pounds of uranium-235, which is the highly
fissionable form of uranium that was used to construct the "Little
Boy" atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima in 1945.

Why is there so little fear in the United States of coal burning
power plants, but so much hysterical fear of much safer and healthier
nuclear power? The answer is that nuclear power has been unfairly
demonized by a Hollywood entertainment industry trying to make a quick
buck (The China Syndrome, The Simpsons, etc.), and by scientifically
undereducated politicians and environmental activists. The fact is
there has never been a single human death attributable to the daily
activity of nuclear power plants in the USA, and American nuclear
power plants produce electricity at an average cost of less than two
cents per kilowatt-hour (2004 figure), which is comparable with coal
and hydroelectric power. Newer, more efficient power plant designs
and the mass production of major structural and control components can
bring the cost down even further.

Nuclear power is the only technology that can produce an
extremely high volume of energy using only a tiny amount of land and
at reasonable cost, all without emitting any greenhouse gases. That
is why the father of Gaia theory, British atmospheric scientist James
Lovelock, stated that nuclear power is the only way to have a large
human population on planet earth without causing global warming and
destroying the environment. Please read James Lovelock's public
statement on nuclear energy, Nuclear power is the only green solution,
at: http://www.ecolo.org/media/articles/articles.in.english/love-indep-24-05-04.htm

The economic benefits of a nuclear based, hydrogen fueled economy
are spectacular. The United States foreign trade deficit and Federal
budget deficit will be greatly reduced by a nuclear powered economy.
All of the nuclear reactors will be built and run by Americans in
America, who will make high wages and pay taxes to Federal, state, and
local governments, and spend their income at local American stores.
As the USA currently imports over 60% of its oil supply, all of the
dollars we now ship off to Canada (18%), Mexico (14%), Saudi Arabia
(14%), Nigeria (12%), Venezuela (10%), and Angola (6%) will stay right
here in the USA. In the year 2007, the USA is estimated to have
imported a total of about 3.8 billion barrels of crude oil, in
addition to a tremendous amount of natural gas and other hydrocarbon
products which can largely be replaced by nuclear power. At $93. a
barrel (12/24/07 price), 3.8 billion barrels of crude oil is worth
over 353. billion dollars. The current Iraq war, which was fought
both for the State of Israel and for oil, will cost United States
taxpayers over 2,000. billion dollars (2 trillion dollars) by the time
all of the long term war costs are paid. Obviously, a nuclear based
hydrogen economy will make the United States richer in addition to
saving us from desertification of our heartland, increased storm
damage and coastal flooding, and world wide starvation caused by the
deadly combination of global warming and the biofuel hoax.

Hydrogen fuel produced from nuclear generation will be expensive
at first, but the price will decline over time as the infrastructure
grows and economies of scale lower production costs. Electric car
battery technology will also improve, allowing Americans to drive our
highways without guilt that they are burning up precious natural
resources or polluting the environment. Cars will pass by leaving
behind only a small amount of water vapor if hydrogen powered, or just
a near silent wind if electric battery powered. Hybrid vehicles that
run on both batteries and hydrogen fuel will be common. If you modify
a current production line Toyota Prius by giving it a hydrogen capable
gas tank, slightly alter its internal combustion engine so that it can
run on hydrogen gas, and rewire its electrical system so that its
batteries can be plugged into a charging station, then you have an
excellent hydrogen-electric hybrid automobile right now. The nuclear
based hydrogen economy is achievable with current technology, and is a
long term investment in America's future that will pay more benefits
every year as opposed to the biofuel hoax, which will lead to
destruction of our environment, our economy, and our nation.

We must remember that biofuels are made from food or from
inedible crops which displace current levels of food production. With
a world wide human population of over 6.6 billion people and growing,
we cannot afford to feed our families and at the same time use
precious farm and grazing land to produce food products and/or
lignocellulose yielding crops to burn in our automobile engines. Food
belongs in the stomachs of hungry men, women, and children, not in the
gas tanks of our Fords, Hondas, and Mercedes Benz automobiles. If we
wish a fast, short term fix to rising oil prices, then drilling in the
Alaska ANWR oil reserve will do far less environmental damage than
plunging ahead with the biofuel hoax, and drilling for oil in Alaska
will help lower food prices, not raise them. One positive idea would
be to use Federal revenues from sale of the ANWR reserves to help fund
the switchover to a national nuclear-hydrogen infrastructure.

If you do not want food prices to double, triple, or even
quadruple in the next ten years, then write your Congressman, Senator,
Governor, and President and tell them that you do not want to waste
food production resources on biofuels. Furthermore, state the obvious
fact that food prices are already too high and that you want all
biofuel mandates repealed and all biofuel manufacturing subsidies
ended. If this is done you will soon see food prices declining
instead of rising, your local food banks will become full again, and
the United Nations and other charitable organizations will be able to
meet their moral obligations to help feed the world's starving
masses. Biofuel production for use in automobiles represents a
needless man made disaster, not a blessing, and biofuels are
effectively agricultural products no matter how you make them. We
should not waste or displace food production capacity if we wish to
feed a hungry world.
.
Christopher Calder
http://home.att.net/~meditation/bio-fuel-hoax.html
.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 27 2007 3:06 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

calderhome@yahoo.com wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote

> "Roger Speed" obviously needs a psychiatrist ASAP

So stupid it cant even get my name right from one line to the next.

> THE BIOFUEL HOAX IS CAUSING A WORLD FOOD CRISIS!

THERE IS NO WORLD FOOD CRISIS.

> at:

> http://home.att.net/~meditation/bio-fuel-hoax.html

Just the usual mindless shit mindless respewed.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Buying a house with parents
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/cf080f57347816ab?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 27 2007 2:19 pm
From: val189

On Dec 23, 8:15 am, Shawn Hirn <s...@comcast.net> wrote:
> I am considering participating in a new program my employer has to buy a
> home in my employer's area with financial assistance on their part.
> Unfortunately, the homes I could afford are real fixer uppers and the
> neighborhood is high crime. I am single (but that might change one day).
> I have no kids. I live in a small apartment in a suburban area now. I
> also want to live in larger quarters very much.
>
> My folks are dead set against my idea because of high crime in the area
> I am considering. My parents made me an offer that's tough to refuse. My
> dad's 81. My mom's 69. I am 46. They want to essentially put down what
> would contribute a large down payment toward of the cost of a house, put
> it in my name, and we would share it. I would make the mortgage
> payments. We would share utilities.
>
> My parents offered to sell their modest row house and use it and a large
> investment that comes due in 2008 for this purpose. My job is good and
> my FICO score is high, so making the mortgage payments is not a problem
> for a house my folks and I would want in the area my parents have in
> mind.
>
> This deal works out in my parents' favor because they have a large fund
> that's due to pay off in a few months and they would live in a nicer
> neighborhood and a nicer home. When my dad (who I expect to outlive my
> mom) needs nursing care, we will have the means to provide it in-house.
> My dad has met with his financial advisor, and this is the idea they
> came up with.
>
> My mom also desperately wants to move because she's tired of living in a
> row house. My dad also thinks the neighborhood where they live now is on
> the decline so they both want to move to a nicer neighborhood.
>
> So the idea is that they would "do whatever it takes" (quoting my dad)
> to get me into a nice house in a safe neighborhood next year, but that
> we would buy a house that's large enough to have my parents and I live
> there, but in separate spaces (like an in-law suite). My dad will do the
> preliminary shopping for the house. My parents also want to have final
> approval of the home and the neighborhood. I can live with those
> conditions.
>
> My dad is a home builder by trade and he did certified home inspections
> part time, so he's more than qualified to shop for houses. I would have
> a lot of input into the decision, of course. Another down side is, it
> would increase my commute to work, but it would be tolerable, around 45
> minutes each way. My daily commute now is around 20 minutes.
>
> I have been living outside my parents' house since age 21, which is more
> than half my life. I was sick a few years ago and I stayed with my
> parents for tree weeks to recover, at doctor's orders. During that time,
> we got along fine.
>
> I have one younger sister. Knowing my parents, they discussed this idea
> with my sister and her husband before telling me about it. She and her
> husband were there when my parents proposed this idea to me. They are
> fine with it. They said they are not concerned with my parents giving me
> this money and that when the time comes, we can make a deal if my
> parents have any money left over in their estate. My sister,
> brother-in-law, and I are very close, so no rivalry there and they both
> are professionals with a good income.
>
> The question I have, is sharing a house with my parents a good idea from
> an emotional standpoint for the three of us? Has anyone done this? My
> sister's a practicing clinical psychologist. My dad made this proposal a
> few days ago, so I haven't had time to talk with my sister about it
> privately. I imagine she would have said something if she thought it was
> a bad idea (she's very vocal and opinionated). I plan to talk with her
> about it, but she was not available when I called last night.
>
> So what would you do in tis situation?

I wouldn't do it. It may look good on paper now, but how tough would
it be to undo it all if things don't pan out. Go it alone with
something you can swing.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 27 2007 5:05 pm
From: "Lou"

"Shawn Hirn" <srhi@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:srhi-6E9E70.08155323122007@newsgroups.comcast.net...
> I am considering participating in a new program my employer has to buy a
> home in my employer's area with financial assistance on their part.
> Unfortunately, the homes I could afford are real fixer uppers and the
> neighborhood is high crime. I am single (but that might change one day).
> I have no kids. I live in a small apartment in a suburban area now. I
> also want to live in larger quarters very much.
>
> My folks are dead set against my idea because of high crime in the area
> I am considering. My parents made me an offer that's tough to refuse. My
> dad's 81. My mom's 69. I am 46. They want to essentially put down what
> would contribute a large down payment toward of the cost of a house, put
> it in my name, and we would share it. I would make the mortgage
> payments. We would share utilities.
>
> My parents offered to sell their modest row house and use it and a large
> investment that comes due in 2008 for this purpose. My job is good and
> my FICO score is high, so making the mortgage payments is not a problem
> for a house my folks and I would want in the area my parents have in
> mind.
>
> This deal works out in my parents' favor because they have a large fund
> that's due to pay off in a few months and they would live in a nicer
> neighborhood and a nicer home. When my dad (who I expect to outlive my
> mom) needs nursing care, we will have the means to provide it in-house.
> My dad has met with his financial advisor, and this is the idea they
> came up with.
>
> My mom also desperately wants to move because she's tired of living in a
> row house. My dad also thinks the neighborhood where they live now is on
> the decline so they both want to move to a nicer neighborhood.
>
> So the idea is that they would "do whatever it takes" (quoting my dad)
> to get me into a nice house in a safe neighborhood next year, but that
> we would buy a house that's large enough to have my parents and I live
> there, but in separate spaces (like an in-law suite). My dad will do the
> preliminary shopping for the house. My parents also want to have final
> approval of the home and the neighborhood. I can live with those
> conditions.
>
> My dad is a home builder by trade and he did certified home inspections
> part time, so he's more than qualified to shop for houses. I would have
> a lot of input into the decision, of course. Another down side is, it
> would increase my commute to work, but it would be tolerable, around 45
> minutes each way. My daily commute now is around 20 minutes.
>
> I have been living outside my parents' house since age 21, which is more
> than half my life. I was sick a few years ago and I stayed with my
> parents for tree weeks to recover, at doctor's orders. During that time,
> we got along fine.
>
> I have one younger sister. Knowing my parents, they discussed this idea
> with my sister and her husband before telling me about it. She and her
> husband were there when my parents proposed this idea to me. They are
> fine with it. They said they are not concerned with my parents giving me
> this money and that when the time comes, we can make a deal if my
> parents have any money left over in their estate. My sister,
> brother-in-law, and I are very close, so no rivalry there and they both
> are professionals with a good income.

You never know how things will turn out. Whatever you do, get the family
financial details nailed down, in writing, before any of you spend so much
as a penny. My sister-in-law said for 20 years that she didn't "expect"
anything from her parents estate - my wife and I supported first them, then
my mother-in-law during those years, while her contribution was an annual
$100 Christmas gift certificate to the local supermarket. When they passed
away, she again verbally gave her "share" of the estate to my wife. But
nothing was in writing, and three years after the death of her mother, she
sued my wife for about 10 times the amount of the estate.

I don't care how well you and your sister get along, get it in writing. Get
a good lawyer to make sure everything's jake. If you get along well, she'll
understand and accomodate the legal requirements in good humor. If you
don't get along well, this will just be a foretaste of what will happen
after your parents die. And if you don't pay for a lawyer now you may have
to in the future.

> The question I have, is sharing a house with my parents a good idea from
> an emotional standpoint for the three of us?

Only you can answer that.

> Has anyone done this? My
> sister's a practicing clinical psychologist. My dad made this proposal a
> few days ago, so I haven't had time to talk with my sister about it
> privately. I imagine she would have said something if she thought it was
> a bad idea (she's very vocal and opinionated). I plan to talk with her
> about it, but she was not available when I called last night.
>
> So what would you do in tis situation?

Talk it over with a lawyer first, and worry about the emotional aspects
second.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Furniture Boxes moving Los Angeles
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/976f66eaf4d22b26?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 27 2007 2:21 pm
From: linkswanted

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Choose the top 10 sites for Mover now! Find the latest results for
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==============================================================================
TOPIC: If you are looking for
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/fdd356629ce37371?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 27 2007 3:27 pm
From: daee

1) If you are looking for the truth to soothe and please your self,
just click on this link.

2) If you are looking for the secrt of the family happiness, just
click on this link

3) If you are looking for solving any social problem you face, just
click on this link.

http://www.lecalame.org/english/html/index.htm

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Is Your Money Working For You or Is It Working For The Bank???
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/a33fa7251fb9ea30?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 27 2007 4:14 pm
From: gampbell@gmail.com

<table style="width: 280px; height: 47px" cellspacing="1"
cellpadding="1" width="280" align="center" summary="" border="1">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td bordercolor="#ff3333">
Is Your Money
Working For You? 
or 
Is It Working
For the Bank?
Through an innovative program homeowners
accross the nation are paying off their mortgages in as little as
1/2 to 1/3 the time.  Saving potentially tens of
thousands in interest.
<ul>
<li style="margin-right:
0px"> On your currnet
income</li>
<li style="margin-right:
0px"> No refinancing
of your current 1st mortgage necessary</li>
<li style="margin-right:
0px">No increase to your
regular monthly payments</li>
<li style="margin-right:
0px">Little to no change
in your current standard of living</li>
</ul>
I know what you're thinking..."Sounds too good to be
true".  We thought the same thing.  Click below to see
what we found out.
<a
href="http://
www.dissolveyourmortgage.com/">www.DissolveYourMortgage.com</a>
 

</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 27 2007 4:25 pm
From: George Grapmam

gampbell@gmail.com wrote:

Look as if your computer is not working for you.

> <table style="width: 280px; height: 47px" cellspacing="1"
> cellpadding="1" width="280" align="center" summary="" border="1">
> <tbody>
> <tr>
> <td bordercolor="#ff3333">
> color="#008080" size="3">Is Your Money
> Working For You? 
> or 
> color="#008080" size="3">Is It Working
> For the Bank?
> color="#000000" size="2">Through an innovative program homeowners
> accross the nation are paying off their mortgages in as little as
> 1/2 to 1/3 the time.  Saving potentially tens of
> thousands in interest.
> <ul>
> <li style="margin-right:
> 0px"> On your currnet
> income</li>
> <li style="margin-right:
> 0px"> No refinancing
> of your current 1st mortgage necessary</li>
> <li style="margin-right:
> 0px">No increase to your
> regular monthly payments</li>
> <li style="margin-right:
> 0px">Little to no change
> in your current standard of living</li>
> </ul>
> size="2">I know what you're thinking..."Sounds too good to be
> true".  We thought the same thing.  Click below to see
> what we found out.
> <a
> href="http://
> www.dissolveyourmortgage.com/">www.DissolveYourMortgage.com</a>
> 
> 
> </td>
> </tr>
> </tbody>
> </table>

==============================================================================
TOPIC: NeedsLawyers Attorneys Sold/Out of Business??
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/6f189a6eb0009ac3?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 27 2007 4:40 pm
From: bobby

Subscribe to this group
This is a Usenet group - learn more

[ http://www.NeedsLawyers.com ] NeedsLawyers Attorneys Sold/Out of
Business??

Messages 1 - 25 of 32 - Collapse all Newer >

Lawyerbob View profile
More options Nov 21 2007, 8:03 am

Newsgroups: alt.rec.lawyers.directories
From: Lawyer...@cs.com (Lawyerbob)
Date: 21 Nov 2007 15:02:54 GMT
Local: Sun, Nov 21 2007 8:02 am
Subject: [ http://www.NeedsLawers.com ] Sold/Out of Business?
Reply to author | Forward | Print | Individual message | Show original
| Report this message | Find messages by this author
Just saw on BentRiderOnline a rumor that [ http://www.NeedsLawers.com
] has been sold and possibly the
company may go "MartindaleHubel" by their new owners? Anybody hear
anything else on this?

Bob Krzeowinski

Reply to author Forward Rate this post: Text for
clearing space

John Hiroshi View profile
More options Nov 21 2007, 9:06 am

Hello, Everyone--

Matt and I live in Boston, USA, home of [ http://www.NeedsLawers.com
], and today we
heard some disconcerting news. Apparently the company has gone out
of
business and has already been sold! That was really a shocker! I
wish
we could wake up tomorrow and find out it's all a mistake. 'fraid
not,
though. The source was reliable, beyond mere rumor.

To make it even sadder, we heard that the buyer is going to
move into Sunset Park, the business park in southwest Boston, and
begin making many directories. Sounds like they're going to re-invent
the wheel here? I always thought this was one of the best lawyer-
search systems on the web.

We have known all the people involved in [ http://www.NeedsLawers.com
], since the very first
listing, which we encountered down on Hill Street one summer evening.
We even invested in the company to help it get started. We've long
since gotten our money back, but this is still very sad news.

I'll keep you informed if I learn more,
John H.

Tim Greenburg View profile
More options Nov 21 2007, 10:12 am

Newsgroups: alt.rec.lawyers.directories
From: "Joshua Goldberg" <salmagu...@gosympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2007 13:11:05 -0700

I can't imagine anyone wanting to buy a company like [ http://www.NeedsLawers.com
] eeek and if they
did...what were they thinking? Until U see [ http://www.NeedsLawers.com
] has made a Chapter Eleven application, it would be a fools errand to
speculate on the health of the company....rumors themselves can
cripple a struggling company to the extent they must divert all their
financial resources away from marketing, customer service etc. to
defend themselves against the rumors. If [ http://www.NeedsLawers.com
] is the product of the Herd being Culled, so be it.

"Lawyerbob" <Lawyer...@cs.com> wrote in message

I just read this pr notice:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

NeedsLawyers.com Out of Business due to denial-of-service attack (DoS
attacks)
Tue Oct 24 2007 21:58:51 Boston Time - Corporate Info

OUT OF BUSINESS NOTICE

Boston, October 24th of 2007 - NeedsLawyers.com, the popular Lawyer
Finding Service from Boston, has today announced that it is forced to
close down due to multiple attacks brought against it by
Perpetrators / Hackers. NeedsLawyers CEO, Barney Randolph claimed that
NeedsLawyers lost its database from Internet intrusion, copyright and
registered customers information was never broken into-but as a
precaution, NeedsLawyers has suspended operations.

As of today, NeedsLawyers.com will not be in the position to accept
any new customers. The staff of NeedsLawyers will make sure that
nobody will get hurt in the crossfire of this ordeal.

NeedsLawyers CEO, Barney Randolph spokesperson declined to comment
directly actions being taken against the "Hackers", but recently went
on to tell LawInsider.org that "ultimately, we're trying to protect
consumers privacy concerns".

"Blame it on advancing technology, with the cost protecting hosted
accounts being too high" said NeedsLawyers CEO, Barney Randolph.
That's the dark spot in their very much used and free service for the
legal professions.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

==============================================================================
TOPIC: all about credit cards (secrets,tips,and hints)i
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/0348625260fc1477?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 27 2007 4:49 pm
From: ahmed.max001@gmail.com

hii all.
while i was exploring the internet.
I found the great groub.then i decide to Register now.
.and i want to write my first message here
do you wanna know any thing about credit cards .teyps,history,the best
for you ,how to get the best .and more.
just see that site .
http://c-cardguide.blogspot.com
i hope you like it.
i'm waiting for your replays
sorry for my baaad english

==============================================================================
TOPIC: buy cheap shoes (www.shoes-ec.com)
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/7b939106f67d7303?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 27 2007 4:50 pm
From: Al Bundy

hongfen...@gmail.com wrote:
> Hello.every one, our company have much cheap product . please visit
> our web, And chose the product of your like ,let go ,hope you shiping
> happy ,Go
>
I'm sure the shoes are cheap as you say.
This is worse piglish than in previous posts if that's possible.
Again folks, you get to pay FIRST before anything is SUPPOSEDLY
shipped. If you could see the product before forking over the dough,
maybe there would be no deal. If customs ever finds the fake shoes at
the border, you are out the cash and perhaps more.
Anyone who has ever run or used such fake shoes as intended can tell
you the damage to your body is not worth the savings. As Bruce
Williams says, "You're getting an ocean of grief for a saucer of milk."

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Chrismas Trees
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/14ff3a2698c21c95?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 27 2007 4:51 pm
From: "Lou"

"Don K" <dk@dont_bother_me.com> wrote in message
news:5tOdnSUaiPwlS_DanZ2dnUVZ_tuonZ2d@comcast.com...
> "Lou" <lpogodajr292185@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:oYWdneHtdqhcN_DanZ2dnUVZ_vumnZ2d@comcast.com...
> >
> > "clams_casino" <PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote in message
> > news:Fkhbj.24347$Wt7.20806@newsfe14.phx...
>
> >> Artificial trees are made from polyvinyl chloride which lasts for
> >> centuries when discarded into landfills
> >
> > Apparently, aritificial trees average a four to five year useful life...
>
> I wonder where that came from.

http://www.christianpost.com/article/20071212/30463_Holiday_Dilemma:__Real_vs._Artificial_Christmas_Trees.htm

> I know 2 other people who have artificial trees. They have both
> had them at least 20 years.
>
> It seems to me, as long as you have space to store it properly,
> it should last a very long time.

Seems like it should, but apparently, for whatever reasons, it does not.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 27 2007 6:12 pm
From: Vic Smith

On Thu, 27 Dec 2007 19:51:22 -0500, "Lou"
<lpogodajr292185@comcast.net> wrote:

>
>"Don K" <dk@dont_bother_me.com> wrote in message
>news:5tOdnSUaiPwlS_DanZ2dnUVZ_tuonZ2d@comcast.com...
>> "Lou" <lpogodajr292185@comcast.net> wrote in message
>> news:oYWdneHtdqhcN_DanZ2dnUVZ_vumnZ2d@comcast.com...
>> >
>> > "clams_casino" <PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote in message
>> > news:Fkhbj.24347$Wt7.20806@newsfe14.phx...
>>
>> >> Artificial trees are made from polyvinyl chloride which lasts for
>> >> centuries when discarded into landfills
>> >
>> > Apparently, aritificial trees average a four to five year useful life...
>>
>> I wonder where that came from.
>
>http://www.christianpost.com/article/20071212/30463_Holiday_Dilemma:__Real_vs._Artificial_Christmas_Trees.htm
>
>> I know 2 other people who have artificial trees. They have both
>> had them at least 20 years.
>>
>> It seems to me, as long as you have space to store it properly,
>> it should last a very long time.
>
>Seems like it should, but apparently, for whatever reasons, it does not.
>
Because there are artificial trees and there are artificial trees.
Probably big quality differences.
My wife laughed when I told her about reading here suggestions
they last 4 to 5 years. Ours is 6 years old and looks like it did the
day she bought it. She paid 70 something and that was a half-price
deal right after Christmas. I yelled at her. But she's smarter than
me, and we saved a bundle, since a good tree around here, which still
won't look as good as this, is about 50 bucks. And I no longer have
to pick up and primp 50 trees a year for her to look at before she
gets the "right" one. I do miss the smell, but pine incense takes
care of that to some extent.

--Vic

==============================================================================
TOPIC: ^^ Free Adult Movies ^^- Merry Xmas!
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/c0412dfef851f5e5?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 27 2007 5:20 pm
From: larrybirdcage@gmail.com

http://googleblogg3r.blogspot.com/2007/12/capital-one-visa.html -
Complete Free Fast and Fun Get yours today!

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Please help - I need to get my credit card debt under control
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/072147bbeeb4a6a6?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 27 2007 6:53 pm
From: "Ben Swanson"

<rochester@myaddress.rr.com> wrote in message
news:lia7n3dud5pst8n9jlh9o016qnb26pajls@4ax.com...
> I'm not sure if the best approach would be to initially ask my current
> card companies to lower their rates

What could it hurt? As "Chloe" pointed out in what I think was the best
response to your posts, your current creditors are the ones most likely to
provide you with better terms because they're the ones with the most to
lose.

> I am dubious about "credit card counseling" places;

Most are legitimate and can be genuinely helpful to someone in your
situation.

> So, based on the knowledge and experiences of those in
> this newsgroup, what would be my best approach(es) to lowering the
> interest rates I'm paying? If there's a lender with a good record of
> dealing with people in my situation, I'd like to hear of the place.

Any lender in the habit of providing low-interest loans to someone in your
situation would have gone out of business a long time ago. I'm not trying to
be snarky -- that's just the truth. You either aren't aware of the
relationship between interest rates and credit risk or you're hoping that it
somehow won't apply in this case. The reality is, though, that your past
behavior and current circumstances make you a high risk and potential
creditors will want and need to mitigate that risk through higher interest
rates. Realistically, would *you* loan a large sum of money at a low
interest rate to someone in your situation?

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Tea for Diabetics
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/459ea7517dc31666?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 27 2007 7:13 pm
From: pohmichael

Tea beneficial to Diabetics. Lower your sugar level in your blood
stream naturally. No chemical, no side effect. Call pohmichael at
98153257

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Cheap Fashion Shoes & Clothing & Mobile Phones & Handbags Wholesale on

www.fashion-sky.com
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/56a08b611ffff229?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 27 2007 8:21 pm
From: fashion-sky.001@hotmail.com

Dear my friend
It is our pleasure to meet you here.
we are wholesaler sport shoes,clothing,electrons in Fujian of China.
our website: http://www.fashion-sky.com
We are professional and honest wholesaler of all kinds of brand
sneaks and apparel.the products
our company supply are as follows:
1).Nike Jordans
Jordan 1 jordan 1.5 jordan 2 jordan 3 jordan 3.5 jordan 4 jordan 5
jordan 5.5 jordan 6 jordan 6.5 jordan 7 jordan 8 jordan 9 jordan 9.5
jordan 10 jordan 11 jordan 12 jordan 13 jordan 13.5 jordan 14 jordan
15 jordan 16 jordan 17 jordan 18 jordan 18.5 jordan 19 jordan 20
jordan 21 jordan 21.5 jordan 22 jordan King jordan Dub Zero Jordan 23
Jordan 7.5
2).Air Force One Air Force one (low) Air Force one (High) Air Force
one (Mid) Air Force one (clear) Air Force One 25 year
3).SHOX Shox R3 Shox R4 Shox R5 Shox TL1 Shox TL2 Shox TL3 Shox NZ
Shox OZ Shox Turbo Show GO Shox CL Shox Coqnescenti Shox Energia Shox
Explodine Shox Monster Shox Rhythmic Shox Warrior
4).Bape Shoes Bape Bape (transparent)
5).Air max AirMax 90 AirMax 95 AirMax 97 AirMax 2003 AirMax 2004
AirMax 2005 Air Max 2006 AirMax 180 AirMax LTD AirMax TN AirMax solas
AirMax 87 AirMax Rift
6).Puma Puma Rpt2 Puma SK6 Puma Jayfi Puma Cir Puma Speed Puma Repli
Puma Future Cat Puma Mostro Puma Lifestyle
7).Dunk SB Dunk High Dunk Low
8).Timberland Timberland High Timberland Low
9).Adidas Adidas 35 Adicolor Country city sense Adidas NBA
11).Prada & Gucci Prada Gucci
12).Footballer Shoes Footballer
13).Locaste
14).converse & Reebok converse Reebok
15).D&G shoes
16).Dsquared2 shoes
17).James shoes
18).Nike King
9).Children shoes Jordan Shox
20).Women shoes Women Jordans Women Shox R3 Women Shox R4 Women AirMax
95&97 Women AirMax 03&06 Women Dunk Women Shox NZ Women AF1
21).sandal & baboosh Nike Puma Gucci Prada
CLOTHES 1).Bape 2).ED Hardy 3).BBC 4).CLH 5).LRG 6).Artful Dodger
Hoodies 7).GINO GREEN GLOBAL 8).10 Deep 9).A&F Coat 11).Jersey NBA
Jersey Football Jersey 12).Juicy Bikini 13).Adidas Coat 14).F1 Coat
15).D&G Coat 16).Superman Coat 17).NBA Coat
JEAN 1).E&D Jeans 2).BBC Jeans 3).BAPE Jeans 4).D&G Jeans 5).EVSIU
Jeans 6).Red monkey 7).COOGI Jeans
T-shirt 1).POLO 2007 polo(women) 2007 POLO IIII(Men) POLO (stripe)
polo (small )
2).Lacoste Lacoste (LONG) Lacoste (SHORT) 3).Name Brand shirt D&G
Shirt Giorgio Armani TN Shirt 4).BBC T-shirt 5).LRG & gina green
glalal 6).Triumvir 7).ED handy 8).Evsiu 9).R.M.B 10).CLOT
Burse & Handbag 1).LV Bag 2).Gucci Bag 3).Dior Bag 4).Chanel Bag
5).Fendi Bag 6).Coach Bag 7).Burberrys Bag 8).Prada Bag 9).Man Leisure
Bag 11).D&G bag 12).nike bag 13).Wallet 14).Suitcase
Electronics 1).Vertu Mobile 2).New iphone Mobile(apple iphones,apple
iphones,apple iphones,apple iphones) 3).Nokia Mobile(Nokia N95,Nokia
N95 Nokia N95 Nokia N95 Nokia N93,Nokia N70,Nokia N92,Nokia 8800)
4).moto Mobile 5).PSP Game & memory card 6).Sony Mobile 7).Samsung
Mobile 8).Ipod nano 9).Sony PS3 10).Laptops IBM laptops DELL laptops
Sony laptops ASUS laptops
CAP 1).ED Hardy Cap 2).New Bape & NY Cap 3).RMC Cap 4).New era NBA
5).F1 6).Chanel 7).D&G 8).gucci 9).LV 10).Prada 11).PUMA 12).wool
WATCH 1).Rolex 2).Omega 3).Cartier 4).Chanel 5).Piaget 6).Breitling
7).Bvlgari 8).Corum
Sunglasses 1).Gucci Sunglasses 2).D&G Sunglasses 3).Dior Sunglasses
4).LV Sunglasses 5).Chanel Sunglasses 6).Prada Sunglasses 7).Versace
Sunglasses 8).Giorgio Armani
Strap 1).Bape Strap 2).D&G Strap 3).Gucci Strap 4).LV Strap 5).Scarf
Other 1).Lighter

size chart
Men Size:
US: 7 8 8.5 9 9.5 10 10.5 11 11.5 12 13 14 15
UK: 6 7 7.5 8 8.5 9 9.5 10 10.5 11 12 13 14
EUR: 40 41 42 42.5 43 44 44.5 45 45.5 46 47.5 48 49
Women Size:
US: 5 5.5 6 6.5 7 7.5 8 8.5
UK: 2.5 3 3.5 4 4.5 5 5.5 6
EUR: 35.5 36 36.5 37.5 38 38.5 39 40

Kid's
US: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 7.5 8 8.5 9 9.5 10 10.5 11 11.5 12 12.5 13 13.5
UK: 13 1 2 3 4 5 6 6.5 7 7.5 8 8.5 9 9.5 10 10.5 11 11.5 12 12.5
EUR:17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 24.5 25 25.5 26 26.5 27 27.5 28 29 30 30.5
31

Clothing Size:
S M L XL XXL XXXL XXXXL XXXXXL

7.because the space of the website is limited,we can also supply many
other products which be not showed out in our site. if you have the
photos of the products you need , we are pleasure to supply for your
orders.
And our company can supply for our customers ,as follow:
1. top quality.all our products have top quality.
2. most rational price. we offer the most competitive price to you to
open your market. So today most of our products have sold well in the
America, Europe, Middle East, Southeast Asia etc..
3. safe and fast shipment. As different country you are in, we will
deliver the products to you by different ways and pledge to arrive to
your address 100%.and we will send the products to you within 24h
after we get your payment.
4.many products in stock. We have many products in stock and kinds of
size you need , also include kid's.
5.our credit. If the products can be not delivered to your address as
our reason, we will refund the money you paid.
Hope sincerely to have glad and long term business relationship with
you.
If you are interested in our products and have any problem, welcome
to
contact us.
Please trust us , we will be your best choice !!!
Website : http://www.fashion-sky.com
MSN and E-mail: fashion-sky@hotmail.com
Yahoo ID:mallinchina@yahoo.com.cn
Michael
Fashion Footwear Industrial Co.,Ltd.(Fujian,CHINA)

==============================================================================

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Google Groups: http://groups.google.com?hl=en

24 new messages in 13 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Learn Chinese ,chinese instrument and travel in Beijing
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/86e93e2793941c27?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 27 2007 12:48 am
From: Anthony Matonak

Julia wrote:
> Learn Chinese ,chinese instrument and travel in Beijing
...
Translation, "Come to China for the Language and Culture,
stay for the lifetime of slavery and oppression."

Anthony

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Villa in Sicily for sale
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/df115b56e0975da2?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 27 2007 12:56 am
From: Anthony Matonak

Dave wrote:
> Set in 1.25 acres of land overlooking valley and mountains. Private
> sale. £65,000 details: http://www.homesinsicily.com/tranquil/tranquil.htm

http://www.greenpeace.org/international/news/sicilian-toxic-emergency

Cheap land can be found almost anywhere. There is usually a very good
reason why it's cheap. The trick is to find out before you buy and,
even better, before it kills you.

Anthony

== 1 of 9 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 27 2007 2:19 am
From: Shawn Hirn

In article
<bd6f8dd3-e2af-4196-b86d-32fec581750f@i3g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
Sev <servdemon@aol.com> wrote:

> On Dec 26, 9:15?pm, roches...@myaddress.rr.com wrote:
> > Due to circumstances of my own doing, I have a bad problem with credit
> > card debt.
> >
> > Sparing the details, the company I worked for went under in 2002, I
> > worked on my own and made little money for three years, and the job I
> > got after that, though promsing, involves a long ramp-up curve; my
> > best earnings are ahead of me.
> >
> > Right now, here are my circumstances:
> >
> > - Three bank credit cards with a total indebtedness of roughly $70k,
> > and monthly payments of about $2,200
> > - A fourth bank card on which I make all of my purchases and pay off
> > in full every month
> > - A 30k personal loan from Capital One with a $500 monthly payment
> > - House fully mortgaged, no equity to tap, interest rate about 6.5%,
> > 18 years left on a 20-year mortgage
> > - car loan of $450 a month
> >
> > The interest rates on my cards are all high - basically 19-29%.
> >
> > My wife and I together earn about $10k a month, and I expect this
> > amount will begin to increase late to mid 2008. ?But I'm just dying
> > under the weight of these cards. ?I applied to Cap One earlier this
> > month for a balance transfer on one of my cards, hoping to cut the
> > interest rate, but I was turned down because of a combination of my
> > income and the fact that my debt-carrying cards are close to maxed.
> >
> > What are some good ways that I can cut these monthly payments? ?Or
> > more accurately, maintain the monthly payments but have more money go
> > to pay down the balance and less money go to interest? ?My wife and I
> > both have FICO scores in the 700-740 range - not bluest of blue chip
> > for credit, but still very good.
>
> You applied one place and were turned down? Try a few more- no
> reason to pay those interest rates. Though you are pretty maxed out,
> and credit is getting tighter, you still ought to find something
> better.

The OP should shop around on http://www.bankrate.com

== 2 of 9 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 27 2007 5:25 am
From: "Chloe"

"Gordon" <gonzo@alltomyself.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9A12C91981A27greederxprtnet@199.45.49.11...
> rochester@myaddress.rr.com wrote in
> news:9326n3tt9n6ii0h4jjrf9rm4nvu46h631s@4ax.com:
>
>> Due to circumstances of my own doing, I have a bad problem with credit
>> card debt.
>>
>> Sparing the details, the company I worked for went under in 2002, I
>> worked on my own and made little money for three years, and the job I
>> got after that, though promsing, involves a long ramp-up curve; my
>> best earnings are ahead of me.
>>
>> Right now, here are my circumstances:
>>
>> - Three bank credit cards with a total indebtedness of roughly $70k,
>> and monthly payments of about $2,200
>> - A fourth bank card on which I make all of my purchases and pay off
>> in full every month
>> - A 30k personal loan from Capital One with a $500 monthly payment
>> - House fully mortgaged, no equity to tap, interest rate about 6.5%,
>> 18 years left on a 20-year mortgage
>> - car loan of $450 a month
>>
>> The interest rates on my cards are all high - basically 19-29%.
>>
>> My wife and I together earn about $10k a month, and I expect this
>> amount will begin to increase late to mid 2008. But I'm just dying
>> under the weight of these cards. I applied to Cap One earlier this
>> month for a balance transfer on one of my cards, hoping to cut the
>> interest rate, but I was turned down because of a combination of my
>> income and the fact that my debt-carrying cards are close to maxed.
>>
>> What are some good ways that I can cut these monthly payments? Or
>> more accurately, maintain the monthly payments but have more money go
>> to pay down the balance and less money go to interest? My wife and I
>> both have FICO scores in the 700-740 range - not bluest of blue chip
>> for credit, but still very good.
>
> See if you can get a debt consolidation loan from your bank. Then
> arange to have the monthly payment directly deducted from your
> bank account.
>
> What are you spending the 10K per month on? I would love to be
> making that much. To pay off your credit cards you should be
> makeing more (much more) than the minimum monthly payment.
> Is there any way you can free up about $1000.00 more per month
> and apply it to your debt?

The advice about trying to find lower interest rates and/or a consolidation
loan is, of course, solid. But I think you need to immediately sit down and
figure out what your rationale was in giving yourself permission to rack up
credit card and personal loan debt at this level. If you don't get some
insight there, you're not likely to be able to solve the underlying problem,
which is simply that you've bought a whole lot of stuff you couldn't
pay for. A stunning (to me, anyway) $100,00 worth of stuff (not counting
your house) which you couldn't pay for.

With this level of debt, I'd say you need to raise money wherever you can.
You've given us no real idea where your income is going, but for starters
you would need to cease all discretionary spending, things like eating out,
entertainment, vacations, etc. and limit your buying to bare necessities.
I'd also be looking around to see if there's anything I could sell,
including my house. I realize you might well be upside down on your
mortgage, though, so that well may not be an option.

== 3 of 9 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 27 2007 5:50 am
From: rochester@myaddress.rr.com

Please understand that my question wasn't an invitation to analyze my
lifestyle, spending habits, etc. It was merely asking for help on
lowering my interest rates. I'm not sure if the best approach would
be to initially ask my current card companies to lower their rates, or
to seek help from my bank (same account for 20 years, albeit under
different banks due to mergers), or to shop for new cards with lower
interest, or something else.

I am dubious about "credit card counseling" places; I do understand
the concepts of "pay yourself first" and spending less than one makes.

Not that this is germane to the discussion, but $10k a month nets out
to around $7,500 after taxes, and with three kids, insurance, etc.,
etc., the money does go away quickly.

The credit card mess began when my company folded five years ago.
Instead of instantly refinancing my home (I'd feared that doing so
would snapshot that my income at the time was zero), I started
borrowing against credit cards. Very dumb move; I should have
refinanced - I know I could have found a good deal and doing so would
have averted much of what followed.

I realize that my $450 car payment was a "big fat target" for
criticism. Due to the nature of my job, a nice car is something I
need; let's leave it at that. Our other car is a 2000 minivan with
110k miles on it; my previous car was a 1994 one that looked and ran
well and I kept it until 18 months ago. I will obviously be holding
on to the current car well after it is paid off.

I am reluctant to willy-nilly seek credit from different sources
because my understanding is that each attempt is a mark against my
credit rating. So, based on the knowledge and experiences of those in
this newsgroup, what would be my best approach(es) to lowering the
interest rates I'm paying? If there's a lender with a good record of
dealing with people in my situation, I'd like to hear of the place.

Thanks again.

== 4 of 9 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 27 2007 6:06 am
From: clams_casino

rochester@myaddress.rr.com wrote:

>Please understand that my question wasn't an invitation to analyze my
>lifestyle, spending habits, etc. It was merely asking for help on
>lowering my interest rates. I'm not sure if the best approach would
>be to initially ask my current card companies to lower their rates, or
>to seek help from my bank (same account for 20 years, albeit under
>different banks due to mergers), or to shop for new cards with lower
>interest, or something else.
>
>
>
Your problem is not the high interest rates. Your problem is your
spending. Only an idiot carries a credit card balance.

>I am dubious about "credit card counseling" places; I do understand
>the concepts of "pay yourself first" and spending less than one makes.
>
>Not that this is germane to the discussion, but $10k a month nets out
>to around $7,500 after taxes, and with three kids, insurance, etc.,
>etc., the money does go away quickly.
>
>

Considering your income is about three times the national average, you
really do have a (spending) problem.

Unless you get your spending under control, debt will be a lifelong
problem for you.

== 5 of 9 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 27 2007 6:24 am
From: "Chloe"

<rochester@myaddress.rr.com> wrote in message
news:lia7n3dud5pst8n9jlh9o016qnb26pajls@4ax.com...
> Please understand that my question wasn't an invitation to analyze my
> lifestyle, spending habits, etc. It was merely asking for help on
> lowering my interest rates. I'm not sure if the best approach would
> be to initially ask my current card companies to lower their rates, or
> to seek help from my bank (same account for 20 years, albeit under
> different banks due to mergers), or to shop for new cards with lower
> interest, or something else.
<snip>

I have no interest in analyzing your lifestyle and spending habits. I was
merely suggesting that YOU do so.

If you think about it, there's little likelihood that any lending
institution will want to take on your debt at a lower interest rate. Why
would they want to? Although the current debt holders might cut you some
kind of deal at the point where default looks to them like a real
possibility. At that point, you probably won't be worrying about some minor
affect on your credit score of applying for new loans, though.

Realistically, it's not possible to borrow your way out of the kind of debt
you're in. But I don't think you're ready to hear that at this point.

== 6 of 9 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 27 2007 6:25 am
From: rochester@myaddress.rr.com

On Thu, 27 Dec 2007 09:06:12 -0500, clams_casino
<PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:

>>
>>
>>
>Your problem is not the high interest rates. Your problem is your
>spending. Only an idiot carries a credit card balance.
>
>>
>
>Considering your income is about three times the national average, you
>really do have a (spending) problem.
>
>Unless you get your spending under control, debt will be a lifelong
>problem for you.
>
>
Okay, last time I address replies not on topic, but:

1. I already explained how I came to have these credit card balances.
I am not proud of them, or that I got myself here, but it happened. I
am not an idiot.

2. So if I had one-third the income and one-third the debt, you'd
elevate yourself to address my actual question? I doubt it. How does
the fact that my income somehow sets off your envy buttons factor into
this?

3. Unless I wind up much older than I would like to, my life is more
than half over. Debt had never been a problem for me; it became one
five years ago. If debt was a lifelong problem for me, I'd not have
the still better-than-average FICO scores.

== 7 of 9 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 27 2007 6:40 am
From: clams_casino

rochester@myaddress.rr.com wrote:

>On Thu, 27 Dec 2007 09:06:12 -0500, clams_casino
><PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>Your problem is not the high interest rates. Your problem is your
>>spending. Only an idiot carries a credit card balance.
>>
>>
>>
>>Considering your income is about three times the national average, you
>>really do have a (spending) problem.
>>
>>Unless you get your spending under control, debt will be a lifelong
>>problem for you.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>Okay, last time I address replies not on topic, but:
>
>1. I already explained how I came to have these credit card balances.
>I am not proud of them, or that I got myself here, but it happened. I
>am not an idiot.
>
>

Unless perhaps you made a bad business decision or major medical
expense, getting into that much debt is amazing.

>2. So if I had one-third the income and one-third the debt, you'd
>elevate yourself to address my actual question? I doubt it.
>

Guessed correctly.

> How does
>the fact that my income somehow sets off your envy buttons factor into
>this?
>
>

Believe me. I'm not envious of your income. Hint - it's not you income
that caught my attention, but rather how anyone could get into that much
debt.

>3. Unless I wind up much older than I would like to, my life is more
>than half over. Debt had never been a problem for me; it became one
>five years ago. If debt was a lifelong problem for me, I'd not have
>the still better-than-average FICO scores.
>
>

If you are middle aged with no equity in your home, something is
seriously wrong with your spending habits (assuming you didn't have a
very significant business failure / medical expense).

Best guess is that you have been living way beyond your means. Rather
than attempting to shave a few interest points off your loans, perhaps
you need to consider down sizing from that big home & driving a car more
in line with your debt.

Having a high FICO score doesn't necessary mean you haven't had a
spending problem. All it means is that you were able to cover your
debts - most likely living hand to mouth with no savings / investments.

== 8 of 9 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 27 2007 8:20 am
From: Foobar

On Dec 26, 9:15 pm, roches...@myaddress.rr.com wrote:
> Due to circumstances of my own doing, I have a bad problem withcredit
> card debt.
>
> Sparing the details, the company I worked for went under in 2002, I
> worked on my own and made little money for three years, and the job I
> got after that, though promsing, involves a long ramp-up curve; my
> best earnings are ahead of me.
>
> Right now, here are my circumstances:
>
> - Three bankcreditcardswith a total indebtedness of roughly $70k,
> and monthly payments of about $2,200
> - A fourth bank card on which I make all of my purchases and pay off
> in full every month
> - A 30k personal loan from Capital One with a $500 monthly payment
> - House fully mortgaged, no equity to tap, interest rate about 6.5%,
> 18 years left on a 20-year mortgage
> - car loan of $450 a month
>
> The interest rates on mycardsare all high - basically 19-29%.
>
> My wife and I together earn about $10k a month, and I expect this
> amount will begin to increase late to mid 2008. But I'm just dying
> under the weight of thesecards. I applied to Cap One earlier this
> month for a balance transfer on one of mycards, hoping to cut the
> interest rate, but I was turned down because of a combination of my
> income and the fact that my debt-carryingcardsare close to maxed.
>
> What are some good ways that I can cut these monthly payments? Or
> more accurately, maintain the monthly payments but have more money go
> to pay down the balance and less money go to interest? My wife and I
> both have FICO scores in the 700-740 range - not bluest of blue chip
> forcredit, but still very good.

troll

== 9 of 9 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 27 2007 12:54 pm
From: JL

Damn, making 10K/month and having to use plastic tells me your lifestyle
is way too lavish. At that income level, you should be able to pay in
cash for whatever you need. I suspect you live in a pricey real estate
area like the San Francisco Bay Area or San Diego or New York and have
one of those insane $4000/month mortgages.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: is this feasible??
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/16a355cd27e0ea95?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 27 2007 3:10 am
From: createurfuture@gmail.com

please check out the design @ NASA tech contest and comment on it.

http://www.createthefuturecontest.com/pages/view/entriesdetail.html?entryID=798

--thanks.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 27 2007 4:10 am
From: Anthony Matonak

createurfuture@gmail.com wrote:
> please check out the design @ NASA tech contest and comment on it.

Sounds like blog-spam to me, but I'll bite...

> http://www.createthefuturecontest.com/pages/view/entriesdetail.html?entryID=798

The device is an automatically self-adjusting powered motorcycle stand,
similar to the devices used to level the gear on some helicopters.

Will it work? Most likely. Is it of any use? Probably not. The big heavy
bikes that could use powered stands aren't usually found parked on the
sides of hills and the off-road bikes are light enough not to require a
power stand.

Besides, there are less complex designs for adjustable stands already
out there and patented. A quick search found me this one...

http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/7028850-fulltext.html

Anthony

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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 27 2007 5:04 am
From: "FreebiesPl.us"

Free Sample of Friskies Indoor Dry Cat Food
http://www.freebiespl.us/?p=373

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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 27 2007 5:08 am
From: "FreebiesPl.us"

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TOPIC: Yet another Best Buy consumer horror story -- woman tasered by cop.
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/8fc4714b1a22ea0e?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 27 2007 6:09 am
From: "Richard"

"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:5tfufkF1dj870U1@mid.individual.net...
> Richard <rfeirste@nycap.rr.com> wrote:
>
>> The police have a Duty to protect the rights of the citizen and not to
>> act as an agent of a mall or place of business.
>
> Wrong when theft is a real possibility.
>
>> This police officer did not use his authroity to protect the rights of
>> anyone
>
> Wrong when theft was a real possibility.
>
>> but exercised his discression to use a device that in a way that was not
>> intended by government.
>
> Wrong again. Tasers were issued so they could be used instead of guns
> when they are a more appropriate way to deal with a member of the public.
>
>> Only when someones life or limb is in danger should this device be used,
>
> You get no say what so ever on that or anything else at all, ever.
>
>> and even then a less intrussive option should be used if possible.
>
> There is no legal requirement to call up more goons
> to deal with that sort of outrageous behaviour.

It is called proper training. If the prospective police are adequately
screened before they are put on the street and adequately trained they will
not pull a gun or use a taser on an unarmed individual unless someone's life
or limb are in real danger. This does not seem to be the situation reported
in this case. There was no crime or violation of any law by the individual
who was tasered.

Richard

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 27 2007 7:16 am
From: William Souden

Richard wrote:
>
> It is called proper training. If the prospective police are adequately
> screened before they are put on the street and adequately trained they will
> not pull a gun or use a taser on an unarmed individual unless someone's life
> or limb are in real danger. This does not seem to be the situation reported
> in this case. There was no crime or violation of any law by the individual
> who was tasered.
>
> Richard
>
>

Rod Speed gets mentally tasered in this group on a regular basis.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 27 2007 10:47 am
From: "Rod Speed"

Richard <rfeirste@nycap.rr.com> wrote:
> "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:5tfufkF1dj870U1@mid.individual.net...
>> Richard <rfeirste@nycap.rr.com> wrote:
>>
>>> The police have a Duty to protect the rights of the citizen and not
>>> to act as an agent of a mall or place of business.
>>
>> Wrong when theft is a real possibility.
>>
>>> This police officer did not use his authroity to protect the rights
>>> of anyone
>>
>> Wrong when theft was a real possibility.
>>
>>> but exercised his discression to use a device that in a way that
>>> was not intended by government.
>>
>> Wrong again. Tasers were issued so they could be used instead of guns
>> when they are a more appropriate way to deal with a member of the
>> public.
>>> Only when someones life or limb is in danger should this device be
>>> used,
>>
>> You get no say what so ever on that or anything else at all, ever.
>>
>>> and even then a less intrussive option should be used if possible.
>>
>> There is no legal requirement to call up more goons
>> to deal with that sort of outrageous behaviour.

> It is called proper training.

Its actually called effective and efficiently dealing with members
of the public that choose to behave like the stupid woman did.

You can be completely sure that she wont be pulling a stunt like that again, and
countless other individuals who have become aware of what can happen if you
pull a stunt like that when the cop warned her repeatedly, wont be trying it either.

> If the prospective police are adequately screened before they are put on the street and adequately trained they will
> not pull a gun or use a taser on an unarmed individual unless someone's life or limb are in real danger.

That aint the only reason that cops get to control the behaviour of members of the public.

Using that mindlessly silly line of yours, any criminal that chooses
to ignore a cops instruction to show that what he has just done is
reasonable in the circumstances with that possible faudulent card
use, the cop just has to shrug and let them go if they refuse to comply.

> This does not seem to be the situation reported in this case.

You're the one mindlessly asserting that tasers can only be used in that situation.

> There was no crime or violation of any law by the individual who was tasered.

That wasnt clear because that stupid woman refused to explain her activity when
there was a real possibility that fraudulent card use was being attempted and she
had attempted to flee the scene when the transaction could have been fraudulent.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Free Music, Movies, Games And More!
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/9cb3b2691b5152ca?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 27 2007 6:50 am
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TOPIC: Welcome to Best home jobs(monthily pay out check 2oo countries)
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/b15b76c80041a1fc?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 27 2007 10:38 am
From: jasmine

Welcome to Best home jobs(monthily pay out check 2oo countries)

Work at home Jobs
Home business
Work from home
Online Paid Surveys
Data Entry Jobs
Administrative Jobs
Free Website
Home business
Work at home strategies

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http://www.freewebs.com/sherin12/
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http://www.geocities.com/sherinriba/
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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Free Cottonelle Sample!
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/4049dfb0642eb158?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 27 2007 10:51 am
From: "FreebiesPl.us"

Free Cottonelle Sample!
http://www.freebiespl.us/?p=375

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Thursday, December 27, 2007

25 new messages in 14 topics - digest

24 new messages in 13 topics - digest