Frugal Living: Feb 14, 2008

Thursday, February 14, 2008

25 new messages in 16 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: About "FurnitureInChina"
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/168d9959b2720704?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 14 2008 1:10 am
From: frank huang

Established in 2002, FurnitureInChina.com is Asia's leading on-line
network for the furniture industry .FurnitureInChina.com provides a
round-the-clock marketing and sourcing platform that caters for global
suppliers and buyers and creates more business opportunities for them.
Members of the furniture trade will benefit from the enriched
directory of over 2,000 leading suppliers from around the world, with
many thousands of new quality products and designs illustrated with
photos.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Why do they accept the Islam ?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/7fead2721d7cf2b2?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 14 2008 1:38 am
From: dawa-dawa

Why do they accept the Islam ?
Why do they accept the Islam ?
NBC NEWS:20000 Americans Convert To ISLAM Each Year!
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/2PS2creVhaM
Yusuf Estes - Priests and Preachers accepting Islam
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/E6K0627FiCk
Many Latinos Convert Daily To ISLAM .. Live From Venezuela!
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/1XyrxzQIN9w

Every day many Germans convert to ISLAM
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/34kjurzK500

Holland TV:ISLAM fastest spreading Faith among Youth Germans
www.youtube.com/watch/v/WAXXN6XOnzQ

Thousands of Danish convert to Islam
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/kru6XQ8CT48

TV Report Thousands Hispanics Converting To ISLAM
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/yDwGsmTx3D4

German Scientist & his wife, clinic assistant convert 2 Islam
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/uP-2IqHl4c

European Scientist converts to Islam
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/0IspK651RpY

Dr. Ian Weber from England converts to Islam
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/gUZR6XwU8Pw

science students turn to Islam
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/y3_JYk4Bo4Y

TV Report : Christians Convert To ISLAM in France
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/Dhu0eEuIsGg

Turning Muslim in Texas - People reverting to Islam in Texas
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...46116459496814

Angela Collins - Muslim Convert weeks after 9/11 Incident
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/j6PJgJdEzNM

NEW MUSLIM Woman from austrailia CONVERT
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/-baqULx5IBU

The Choice - A Story of New American Muslim Convert
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/CML3CRPMefA

Irish and "loving Islam" Convert to Islam
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/dIc5oFAva-4

Jewish To Islam convert
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/KcBiJnLjwVw

www.youtube.com/watch/v/IlOuITPE6kE
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/1qpQvpmEqkc

Why do they accept the Islam
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/aJ3TGAnFc-U

135 Convert to Islam
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/36GljFAGcw

Convert to Islam from Canada
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/uKPer2fma9U

Revert to Islam - Brian From Christianity (Convert to Islam)
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/bI_YVnD9UvI

Many Jew and Christian Families Convert To ISLAM
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/84ZtVLI5kXM

British Catholic Priest Converted To ISLAM
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/pn0iPlWQNlI

Greece Men Convert to Islam
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/IlAjkuECrHc

Convert to Islam from Hinduism
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/zePqNxz895U

Christian Convert to Islam
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/HDkW2Y35mKQ

Twenty two/22 Brothers and sisters convert to (Islam)
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/XQBn6loQTdY

Two british Women of different colours convert to Islam
www.youtube.com/watch/v/uEfMcPQfv7w

German convert to Islam
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/9U1zNXXQA6Q

Three French Sisters Convert To ISLAM
www.youtube.com/watch/v/JiksSo0lwL4

Sister Yvonne Ridley Becomes Muslim Islam Video
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/aOe5s5hP4Gw

WHY Christians German Lady convert to ISLAM, SEE VIDEO
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/afFv22Wsd5A

Germany Convert To ISLAM
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/os4vUxfJizU

Jerome - How I wrestled my way to Islam
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/b2YZGGDGUWE

The story of a German convert to Islam
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/gjRjzTAk-RQ

Revert to Islam - Abdus Salam (Convert to Islam)
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/VqlilLIQJRE

Revert to Islam - Maryam Noor (Convert From Christianity)
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/ig0N9aRT0Hc

Germans convert to Islam on german TV
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/nFqj3xPKc88

TV Report Rechtsanwalt konvertiert zum ISLAM
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/4LrIv6kK9o

Jolene: A Southern Baptist Converts to Islam
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/RHQOx12-WJU

Revert to Islam - Muahmmad Musab (Convert From Christianity)
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/Co0xomKcXM

Revert to Islam - Yusuf Ali (Convert to Islam) http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/NcjXK7qzEk

How Melina came to Islam
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/jLht7Kk0bGg

Revert to Islam - Abdullah Laban (Convert to Islam)
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/gGeHzUkkJH4

TV Report Latinos Leaving The Church And Turning To ISLAM
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/j2w14xxi0bM

William Chappelle and 25 members of his family embrace Islam
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/mkBW4l4TmPE

Islam In Netherlands
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...97847671713770

6 German convert to Islam - 2007 - LIVE
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/0SpqpGKp7ts

Caroline convert from Christianity to Islam
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/2Cpmvne2wj0

Japanese Women Turning To ISLAM.
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/L7PIOhK-SgA

American converted Muslim Woman speaking about the Veil
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/L85Mcq3EDX8

Dia Richardson converted to Islam in USA
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/Tp097NNj3Pk

German christ convert to ISLAM
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/UTyu18RgrAo

New Muslim Lady .. Live from London
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/NTlta20vsow

Dutch Women Turning To ISLAM in Holland
www.youtube.com/watch/v/UyyxPO0HFLk

New Sister From South Germany
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/EkBRKrUDnEU

How to Convert to Islam
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/i9K7lmYaucU

4 New Muslims from 4 Corners of the World
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...59428535210219

Jenny - How I came to Islam
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...40716668905509

Cat Stevens becomes Yusuf Islam
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...65900354777626
Islam Youngest Muslim Reverts in The World- in England
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...31311255429137

Why Abdul Raheem Green Came to Islam
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/wF8joJaOVJw

Robert converts to Islam
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/vU5HGHiNUu0

Islam : Best and inspirational Revert Story
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...40414685693208

Revert to Islam - Sister Crystal (Convert From Christianity)
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/IZF9stLSYjY

Spanish Woman talks about Woman rights in Islam :
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/exdCJ_wT9E4

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 14 2008 1:39 am
From: dawa-dawa

Every day many Germans convert to ISLAM
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/34kjurzK500

Holland TV:ISLAM fastest spreading Faith among Youth Germans
www.youtube.com/watch/v/WAXXN6XOnzQ

Thousands of Danish convert to Islam
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/kru6XQ8CT48

TV Report Thousands Hispanics Converting To ISLAM
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/yDwGsmTx3D4

German Scientist & his wife, clinic assistant convert 2 Islam
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/uP-2IqHl4c

European Scientist converts to Islam
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/0IspK651RpY

Dr. Ian Weber from England converts to Islam
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/gUZR6XwU8Pw

science students turn to Islam
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/y3_JYk4Bo4Y

TV Report : Christians Convert To ISLAM in France
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/Dhu0eEuIsGg

Turning Muslim in Texas - People reverting to Islam in Texas
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...46116459496814

Angela Collins - Muslim Convert weeks after 9/11 Incident
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/j6PJgJdEzNM

NEW MUSLIM Woman from austrailia CONVERT
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/-baqULx5IBU

The Choice - A Story of New American Muslim Convert
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/CML3CRPMefA

Irish and "loving Islam" Convert to Islam
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/dIc5oFAva-4

Jewish To Islam convert
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/KcBiJnLjwVw

www.youtube.com/watch/v/IlOuITPE6kE
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/1qpQvpmEqkc

Why do they accept the Islam
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/aJ3TGAnFc-U

135 Convert to Islam
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/36GljFAGcw

Convert to Islam from Canada
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/uKPer2fma9U

Revert to Islam - Brian From Christianity (Convert to Islam)
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/bI_YVnD9UvI

Many Jew and Christian Families Convert To ISLAM
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/84ZtVLI5kXM

British Catholic Priest Converted To ISLAM
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/pn0iPlWQNlI

Greece Men Convert to Islam
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/IlAjkuECrHc

Convert to Islam from Hinduism
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/zePqNxz895U

Christian Convert to Islam
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/HDkW2Y35mKQ

Twenty two/22 Brothers and sisters convert to (Islam)
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/XQBn6loQTdY

Two british Women of different colours convert to Islam
www.youtube.com/watch/v/uEfMcPQfv7w

German convert to Islam
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/9U1zNXXQA6Q

Three French Sisters Convert To ISLAM
www.youtube.com/watch/v/JiksSo0lwL4

Sister Yvonne Ridley Becomes Muslim Islam Video
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/aOe5s5hP4Gw

WHY Christians German Lady convert to ISLAM, SEE VIDEO
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/afFv22Wsd5A

Germany Convert To ISLAM
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/os4vUxfJizU

Jerome - How I wrestled my way to Islam
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/b2YZGGDGUWE

The story of a German convert to Islam
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/gjRjzTAk-RQ

Revert to Islam - Abdus Salam (Convert to Islam)
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/VqlilLIQJRE

Revert to Islam - Maryam Noor (Convert From Christianity)
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/ig0N9aRT0Hc

Germans convert to Islam on german TV
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/nFqj3xPKc88

TV Report Rechtsanwalt konvertiert zum ISLAM
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/4LrIv6kK9o

Jolene: A Southern Baptist Converts to Islam
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/RHQOx12-WJU

Revert to Islam - Muahmmad Musab (Convert From Christianity)
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/Co0xomKcXM

Revert to Islam - Yusuf Ali (Convert to Islam) http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/NcjXK7qzEk

How Melina came to Islam
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/jLht7Kk0bGg

Revert to Islam - Abdullah Laban (Convert to Islam)
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/gGeHzUkkJH4

TV Report Latinos Leaving The Church And Turning To ISLAM
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/j2w14xxi0bM

William Chappelle and 25 members of his family embrace Islam
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/mkBW4l4TmPE

Islam In Netherlands
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...97847671713770

6 German convert to Islam - 2007 - LIVE
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/0SpqpGKp7ts

Caroline convert from Christianity to Islam
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/2Cpmvne2wj0

Japanese Women Turning To ISLAM.
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/L7PIOhK-SgA

American converted Muslim Woman speaking about the Veil
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/L85Mcq3EDX8

Dia Richardson converted to Islam in USA
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/Tp097NNj3Pk

German christ convert to ISLAM
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/UTyu18RgrAo

New Muslim Lady .. Live from London
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/NTlta20vsow

Dutch Women Turning To ISLAM in Holland
www.youtube.com/watch/v/UyyxPO0HFLk

New Sister From South Germany
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/EkBRKrUDnEU

How to Convert to Islam
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/i9K7lmYaucU

4 New Muslims from 4 Corners of the World
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...59428535210219

Jenny - How I came to Islam
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...40716668905509

Cat Stevens becomes Yusuf Islam
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...65900354777626
Islam Youngest Muslim Reverts in The World- in England
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...31311255429137

Why Abdul Raheem Green Came to Islam
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/wF8joJaOVJw

Robert converts to Islam
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/vU5HGHiNUu0

Islam : Best and inspirational Revert Story
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...40414685693208

Revert to Islam - Sister Crystal (Convert From Christianity)
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/IZF9stLSYjY

Spanish Woman talks about Woman rights in Islam :
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/exdCJ_wT9E4

==============================================================================
TOPIC: cheap nike air max 90/ 95/97 / 2003 /2004/ 2005 /360, shox TL /R4/R5 /
NZ at www.cheapforwholesale.com
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/5448b28336680221?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 14 2008 2:11 am
From: cheapforwholesale@126.com

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TOPIC: china cheap wholesale sport shoes,Handbag,clothing,electronics
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/28ecca4096097c1a?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 14 2008 3:02 am
From: ec21i

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18).Nike King
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20).Women shoes Women Jordans Women Shox R3 Women Shox R4 Women AirMax
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size chart
Men Size:
US: 7 8 8.5 9 9.5 10 10.5 11 11.5 12 13 14 15
UK: 6 7 7.5 8 8.5 9 9.5 10 10.5 11 12 13 14
EUR: 40 41 42 42.5 43 44 44.5 45 45.5 46 47.5 48 49
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TOPIC: Driver
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/f899b560aa190a67?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 14 2008 3:43 am
From: Shawn Hirn

In article
<a6d8c56d-f295-4e79-a756-1d0f5afb35e5@n20g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
jenkins419@gmail.com wrote:

> Were would I find drivers for the emachine modem 56K ITU v.92-ready
> Fax/Modem, Model T2742, check wedsite unable to get the drivers, does
> anyone have them out there?

You need to find out which modem it really is. Call eMachine's tech
support to request the info. If you are running the same OS that came
with the computer and the modem is original equipment, the driver might
also be on a disc that came in the box with it.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Calendar downloads?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/200a513c0b463960?hl=en
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== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 14 2008 3:45 am
From: Shawn Hirn

In article <gCNsj.73114$Mu4.28205@bignews7.bellsouth.net>,
pc <pc@somewhere.com> wrote:

> Tockk wrote:
> > If you have word processor software, you probably have a calendar in your
> > pre-set doobers that you can print . . . which reminds me, I was gonna do
> > the same thing . . .
>
> Thanks..
>
> I'm working in Linux now, on this computer, and I'm a total n00b. I
> suppose I could fire up the MS computer and look into the word
> processing part. But, with searches..I didn't find much on the web that
> would fit my needs no matter what operating system I use.
>
> It just galls me that Day Runner type inserts are so expensive.
>
> I had hoped with my new eeepc, I would have been able to use the
> Thunderbird calendar extension. This is almost like using a PDA, like
> someone else suggested. But, it's not quite sufficient for me.

Do a google search for "Linux calendar generator" or just drop the idea
of a hard copy schedule and buy a cheap PDA and come into the 21st
century.

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 14 2008 4:41 am
From: George

pc wrote:
> Tockk wrote:
>> If you have word processor software, you probably have a calendar in
>> your pre-set doobers that you can print . . . which reminds me, I was
>> gonna do the same thing . . .
>
> Thanks..
>
> I'm working in Linux now, on this computer, and I'm a total n00b. I
> suppose I could fire up the MS computer and look into the word
> processing part. But, with searches..I didn't find much on the web that
> would fit my needs no matter what operating system I use.
>
> It just galls me that Day Runner type inserts are so expensive.
>
> I had hoped with my new eeepc, I would have been able to use the
> Thunderbird calendar extension. This is almost like using a PDA, like
> someone else suggested. But, it's not quite sufficient for me.
>
> So, if anybody has any further ideas I'm all ears.
>
> ..PC
>
You likely missed the best info you were given. Move away from paper and
get a PDA. They are economical and powerful and once you use one you
will wonder why you never had one.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 14 2008 6:51 am
From: Samantha Hill - take out TRASH to reply

pc wrote:
>
> It just galls me that Day Runner type inserts are so expensive.

I know this won't work in Linux, but if I recall correctly, Time and
Chaos will let you print pages in different Daytimer-type formats, and I
think some of the PDA desktop software packages will, also.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/e565eaf98e0e70b6?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 14 2008 5:33 am
From: N8N

On Feb 13, 10:21 pm, "James Sweet" <jamessw...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > I agree that the rated fuel consumption for motor vehicles is off - I
> > haven't averaged that low for at least 15 years. For instance, my car is
> > rated 20/29 for city/highway - last week I averaged 33.2 mpg in about 440
> > miles of mixed driving according to the car's odometer and the reading on
> > the pump when I gassed up on Friday evening. According the average
> > mileage
> > display on the dashboard of the car, I got 34.1 mpg, and I suppose the
> > difference could be due to the attendant (no self service gas in NJ)
> > filling
> > the tank right up to the gas cap and/or inaccuracies in the pump or
> > odometer, or even simply to the fact that I fill up the tank at the end of
> > the day (when the car and the gas is at its warmest) but do about half my
> > driving in the morning (when the gas is the coolest). Which means simply
> > that a full measured gallon on a Friday afternoon is probably less than a
> > gallon on Monday morning simply due to the expansion and contraction that
> > go
> > with changes in temperature.
>
> The expansion and contraction based on temperature for a volume as small as
> a tank of fuel in a car are so tiny that you'd never be able to measure them
> with anything around the house, and certainly not the odometer in your car.
> The fuel temperature varies over a range of perhaps 60F max, usually much
> less

Just to be devil's advocate, I used to have a Rabbit GTI that I got
with a bad gas cap; the first time I parked it in the sun with a full
tank of gas, the fuel started pouring out around the gas cap and down
the quarter panel :(

nate

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 14 2008 5:50 am
From: "hallerb@aol.com"

the energy guide labels on appliances arent really to determine exact
operating costs/

their real value is in comparing efficenies in a general way.

obviously a home with 8 kids will use a lot more hot water than a
single guy living alone.

with so many variables, incoming water temp, desired water temp,
amount of water used, cost of gas, etc etc,.

everything is a estimate

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 14 2008 6:49 am
From: "Bob Shuman"

In my case, it was not pro-rated. I was given a new gas HWH by Sears to
replace the one that developed the small leak within the 7-year tank rust
out warranty period. I did need to bring them the old tank though, which
was not an issue.

Bob

<hallerb@aol.com> wrote in message
news:d8313227-a022-497b-89ef-8cdca898a02e@s37g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> having only 1 heater leak before the warranty ran out, and as far as i
> know its still a pro rata warranty....
>
> number of installed months, vs number of warranteed months, gives a
> percentage, thats then applied to a brand new similiar heater at full
> list price
>
> on that one heater the sale price was less than the pro rata price,
> kinda mad i bought my new one somewhere else........
>
> warrantys are sales tools, they rarely help the purchaser much. wheres
> your original invoice? company like sears might no longer be in
> business in 8 years.........
>
> just look at all the retailers who have goine out of business over the
> years.....
>
> a warranty from builders square or hechinger isnt worth the paper its
> written on........
>
> the BTU # is from the manufacturer, they vary from under 30,000 BTU to
> 75,000 BTU on my current tank.
>
> higher btus cost more to build, better stronger burner and heavier
> tank to take the added heat.
>

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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 14 2008 6:34 am
From: "SpiveyBusiness@gmail.com"

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TOPIC: Dollar Tree, Victor NY, worst customer service ever
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/afd0336a0edfead1?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 14 2008 7:24 am
From: Jeff

Stormin Mormon wrote:
> I don't know your def'n of "so far nothing". But I did talk with the store
> manager, and this morning a rep from the regional office called.
>
> What's so intolerant about reporting bad service? I didn't ask if he was
> Catholic, and then try to shoot him.
>
Aren't we talking of firing some kid over using 3 minutes or so of
your time? I just don't see the return on investment. If a waitress kept
you waiting 3 minutes you wouldn't call the regional manager. Just
seems to me that you have a short fuse.

Jeff

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 14 2008 8:30 am
From: Seerialmom

On Feb 11, 5:47 pm, George Grapman <sfgeo...@paccbell.net> wrote:
> Until recently the local Safeway was was regularly understocked. On
> several occasions I walked in and walked out. One time I got the
> checkout and there were only two lines each with about 10 customers. I
> found a manager and told him I had abandoned my cart. He apologized and
> said he was advising customers to call the corporate 800 number to tell
> them the dollar amount of the lost business. It might have worked as
> they are rarely understaffed now.

did you mean "understaffed"?

==============================================================================
TOPIC: for chickpea: hfcs info
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/f6db4b1c8ae41d4f?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 14 2008 8:34 am
From: "AllEmailDeletedImmediately"

http://www.westonaprice.org/modernfood/highfructose.html

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/76/5/911

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/79/4/537

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/559344

(signup required, so here it
is):

Fructose but Not Glucose Consumption Linked to Atherogenic Lipid Profile
Emma Hitt, PhD

July 5, 2007 - Fructose, a sugar used for sweetening most soft drinks in the
United States and elsewhere, has been linked to an increased atherogenic
profile relative to glucose in a short-term study of overweight/obese adults
Peter J. Havel, DVM, PhD, a research professor from the Department of
Nutrition at the University of California, Davis, and colleagues presented
the findings at the American Diabetes Association 67th Scientific Sessions
in Chicago, Illinois.

"Soft drink consumption is, for most people, the largest source of dietary
fructose," Dr. Havel told Medscape. "Of course, fructose is present in fruit
too, but at much lower levels, and...fruit contains many other nutrients."
Dr. Havel and colleagues studied 23 subjects with a body mass index of 23 to
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moderate (30%) level of fat and 55% complex carbohydrates. Baseline blood
measurements were made.

Subjects then began an 8-week outpatient intervention, consuming drinks that
made up 25% of their daily energy needs. The drinks were sweetened with
either fructose (n = 13) or glucose (n = 10). The rest of the participants'
diet was self-selected.

At the end of the 8-week intervention, subjects returned to the clinical
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Relative to baseline, 24-hour postprandial triglyceride profiles were
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Fructose-consuming participants also demonstrated increased plasma
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"Consumption of sugar-sweetened beverages containing fructose has increased
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"It is known that fructose, after being metabolized by the liver, is more
likely to go into a lipogenic pathway than glucose," Dr. Havel noted. "So
these results were not surprising to us, but the magnitude of some of the
changes was striking," he added.

"While this is an interim report, the findings do suggest that persons at
risk for cardiovascular disease, diabetes, or hyperlipidemia should limit
consumption of fructose-sweetened beverages. It is unclear, however, whether
a nonatherogenic level of fructose consumption exists, and what that might
be."
According to Amy Hess-Fischl, MS, RD, LDN, BC-ADM, CDE, diabetes
educator/coordinator from the Adolescent and Teen Diabetes Program,
University of Chicago Comprehensive Diabetes Center, Chicago, Illinois, who
moderated the session at the meeting, although this study was conducted in
overweight and obese individuals, other studies indicate that the
atherogenic effect of fructose may extend to normal-weight individuals as
well.

However, Ms. Fischl told Medscape that controversy exists over the extent of
atherogenicity associated with fructose consumption: "On the basis of these
findings, fructose consumed at 25% of total energy had a negative effect,
while another study found that 17% of total energy had a negative impact."

"Finding the safe limit will be key, and more research is needed to identify
those persons most at risk," noted Ms. Fischl. "Until then, healthcare
professionals can recommend that, based on several studies, limiting
consumption of fructose-containing beverages is probably beneficial."
American Diabetes Association 67th Scientific Sessions: Abstract 0062-OR.
Presented June 23, 2007

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TOPIC: Free video rentals
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== 1 of 1 ==
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TOPIC: cheap phones
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 14 2008 9:00 am
From: rogergoose@googlemail.com

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TOPIC: The unfolding insurance nightmare fraud from hell.
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/59fb8ddfdc9f93fa?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 14 2008 9:05 am
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TOPIC: Was my home purchase in 2006 frugal?
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== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 14 2008 10:37 am
From: Joe

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so I justified my purchase at the time thinking the worst case
scenario is that my house value will drop around 5% a year, well it
did, but I still figure that I'm ahead of the game considering 5% of
my purchase price is still less than I would have paid in rent for
2007. That money would have been thrown away never to be seen again
anyway. Now I know I am still on the hook for taxes and upkeep of the
house but my quality of life is drastically different than living in
an apartment so I consider that expense a wash. Am I wrong in
justifying my purchase this way? Can anyone point out if my thinking
is off on this?

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 14 2008 10:43 am
From: Joe

I forgot to post the link to the article

http://biz.yahoo.com/cnnm/080214/021408_home_prices_fall_for_year.html

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 14 2008 10:46 am
From: "Rod Speed"

Joe <joe5345@gmail.com> wrote:

> I just read this article detailing how home prices in the Northeast
> dropped 4.8% from 2006-2007. I purchased my home in Aug 2006 and knew
> prices were going to drop but our situation left me very little choice
> so I justified my purchase at the time thinking the worst case
> scenario is that my house value will drop around 5% a year, well it
> did, but I still figure that I'm ahead of the game considering 5% of
> my purchase price is still less than I would have paid in rent for
> 2007. That money would have been thrown away never to be seen again
> anyway. Now I know I am still on the hook for taxes and upkeep of the
> house but my quality of life is drastically different than living in
> an apartment so I consider that expense a wash. Am I wrong in
> justifying my purchase this way? Can anyone point out if my thinking
> is off on this?

The main area you are off on is the upkeep of the house. You
pay that when you are paying rent. And you pay the landlord's
taxes too unless the property is being rented out at a loss by
the landlord. That last can happen, but it isnt very common.

So the basics in your logic are correct.

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 14 2008 10:53 am
From: "rox"

"Joe" <joe5345@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:dd07afed-9e4e-49b7-a94a-515efe282466@u10g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
>I just read this article detailing how home prices in the Northeast
> dropped 4.8% from 2006-2007. I purchased my home in Aug 2006 and knew
> prices were going to drop but our situation left me very little choice
> so I justified my purchase at the time thinking the worst case
> scenario is that my house value will drop around 5% a year, well it
> did, but I still figure that I'm ahead of the game considering 5% of
> my purchase price is still less than I would have paid in rent for
> 2007. That money would have been thrown away never to be seen again
> anyway. Now I know I am still on the hook for taxes and upkeep of the
> house but my quality of life is drastically different than living in
> an apartment so I consider that expense a wash. Am I wrong in
> justifying my purchase this way? Can anyone point out if my thinking
> is off on this?

If you bought it to live in, don't worry about it. Prices will rebound over
time and you are building equity. If you don't plan to sell in the next 5
years you'll be fine. I live in the Northeast too and while prices have
dropped the demand for housing overall hasn't. It's just shifted because
marginal buyers are no longer able to find loans that they really can't pay
on houses that were overvalued to begin with.

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17 new messages in 10 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

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Today's topics:

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 13 2008 4:20 pm
From: hchickpea@hotmail.com

On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 15:54:03 GMT, "AllEmailDeletedImmediately"
<derjda@hotmail.com> wrote:

>here's what i found:
>
>This form of fructose is metabolized differently converts to fat more than
>any other sugar.
>
>It does not stimulate insulin secretion or enhance leptin, both of which act
>as key signals in
>regulating how much food you eat and your bodyweight.
>
>Fructose in HFCS has no enzymes, vitamins or minerals, so it takes these
>micronutrients
>from your body while it assimilates itself for use. By comparison, other
>sources of fructose,
>such as fruit, do not create a problem for most people when used moderately
>(unless they
>already have insulin resistance), because they contain those micronutrients.
>
I'll admit to having forgotten the initial conversation, but this post
tweaked me into doing some more research on my own. The first
discovery was that the google archives of the group are now no longer
consistent in their search by date function. This is disappointing to
me, because the archives of usenet used to be a great resource for
people.

Secondly, I was aware of the mix of sugars in fruits, but had thought
that the purity of fructose, sucrose, malt sugar and the other
packaged sugars was greater than it is. High fructose corn syrup can
have a variation in mix, where as long as the fructose is more than in
the basic corn syrup, it can be labeled as "high fructose."

Reviewing then, the discussion really isn't just about fructose, the
sugar, but about the issues with processing and removing (or not) the
other variations of sugars and impurities from high fructose corn
syrup.

Some of what you state makes little sense on the surface and could
benefit from cites. I think I found an online article that does that,
I'll reference it later. But, IMO, the statements above suffer from
shorthand where cause and effect are at best related by a chain of
events and not directly.

Looking at the info available, it appears that much of the proposed
damage from a diet high in sugars can be mitigated by slightly
increasing the ingestion of minerals, especially copper. It also is
important to recognize that any diet that is not mixed stands a
greater chance of being deleterious than one where a variety of food
groups are eaten moderately.

To review, sugars are generally converted into either glucose
(immediate use) or glycogen (temporary storage) by the body. While
enzymes may help in the conversion, vitamins and minerals don't appear
to be directly involved in the processes required. For example, the
common problem of lactose intolerance is a lack of the lactase enzyme
in the gut, but any effect on mineral use or depletion occurs outside
of that primary conversion. Similarly, but different in location,
hereditary fructose intolerance is a condition in which the liver
enzymes that break up fructose are deficient.

Digging a little deeper, I found some cites that both explain some of
the issues you bring up and partly contradict what you have just
written.

Source of the following paragraph:
http://chemed.chem.purdue.edu/genchem/topicreview/bp/1biochem/carbo5.html

The substance most people refer to as "sugar" is the disaccharide
sucrose, which is extracted from either sugar cane or beets. Sucrose
is the sweetest of the disaccharides. It is roughly three times as
sweet as maltose and six times as sweet as lactose. In recent years,
sucrose has been replaced in many commercial products by corn syrup,
which is obtained when the polysaccharides in cornstarch are broken
down. Corn syrup is primarily glucose, which is only about 70% as
sweet as sucrose. Fructose, however, is about two and a half times as
sweet as glucose. A commercial process has therefore been developed
that uses an isomerase enzyme to convert about half of the glucose in
corn syrup into fructose.

(side note- this half glucose/half fructose mix is roughly a
proportion that emulates the sweetness in fruity drinks, like apple
juice. However, apple juice contains a mix low in glucose and
relatively high in fructose and sucrose, which can lead to a more even
digestion of sugars than the HFCS - first the small amounts of
glucose, then the split sucrose, then the fructose)

High-fructose corn sweetener is just as sweet as sucrose and has found
extensive use in soft drinks.

So, if I read this right. HFCS contains fructose AND glucose AND
whatever byproducts the conversion process and corn make, including
some sucrose and/or partly converted disaccharide chains. It might be
prudent to remember that corn starch can be an allergy sensitizer for
some people. Example; the link between latex allergies and corn
starch as a lubricant in latex gloves seems fairly well accepted.

Now, referencing and doing a little re-arranging of:
http://recipes.howstuffworks.com/food2.htm

Glucose, fructose and galactose are monosaccharides and are the only
carbohydrates that can be absorbed into the bloodstream through the
intestinal lining.

The simplest carbohydrate is glucose. Glucose, also called "blood
sugar" and "dextrose," flows in the bloodstream so that it is
available to every cell in your body. Your cells absorb glucose and
convert it into energy to drive the cell. Specifically, a set of
chemical reactions on glucose creates ATP (adenosine triphosphate),
and a phosphate bond in ATP powers most of the machinery in any human
cell. If you drink a solution of water and glucose, the glucose passes
directly from your digestive system into the bloodstream.

Simple sugars require little digestion, and when a child eats a sweet
food, such as a candy bar or a can of soda, the glucose level of the
blood rises rapidly. In response, the pancreas secretes a large amount
of insulin to keep blood glucose levels from rising too high. This
large insulin response in turn tends to make the blood sugar fall to
levels that are too low 3 to 5 hours after the candy bar or can of
soda has been consumed. This tendency of blood glucose levels to fall
may then lead to an adrenaline surge, which in turn can cause
nervousness and irritability... The same roller-coaster ride of
glucose and hormone levels is not experienced after eating complex
carbohydrates or after eating a balanced meal because the digestion
and absorption processes are much slower.

Next, from:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fructose_malabsorption

In patients with fructose malabsorption, the small intestine fails to
absorb fructose properly. In the large intestine the unabsorbed
fructose osmotically reduces the absorption of water and is
metabolized by normal colonic bacteria to short chain fatty acids and
the gases hydrogen, carbon dioxide and methane. (IOW, the runs and
farts)

There is a tremendous amount of other information out there, some of
it contradictory, but again, the issues for most otherwise healthy
people are more with their unbalanced diets, which can lead to
deficiencies, which then cascade into more serious problems and
diseases.

The online article I mentioned at the top is:
http://www.westonaprice.org/modernfood/highfructose.html

Is HFCS a boogie-man? For some folks, I now think it probably is a
danger (a change from my previous thoughts). For others, who might
have a single soft drink every day or two, and eat right otherwise, or
who may just not like a lot of sweets, it probably is less so. In all
cases, it seems like the effects of mineral deficiencies in modern
diets may be an underlying problem that could be much worse than
passing vitamin deficiencies or even a moderate amount of increased
sugars intake.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: $45us/pc H.I.D Conversion Kit
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/fa00c095b81a2ef4?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 13 2008 4:26 pm
From: purplezone@126.com

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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 13 2008 4:27 pm
From: "Dave"

<jenkins419@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:a6d8c56d-f295-4e79-a756-1d0f5afb35e5@n20g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> Were would I find drivers for the emachine modem 56K ITU v.92-ready
> Fax/Modem, Model T2742, check wedsite unable to get the drivers, does
> anyone have them out there?
>

What operating system? What chipset is on the MODEM? You might not need a
specific driver for that particular modem, a generic driver for the modem
chipset might work. If running windows, what does windows identify the
modem as? (without a driver installed) -Dave

== 1 of 8 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 13 2008 4:32 pm
From: trader4@optonline.net

On Feb 13, 6:34 pm, "Only Just" <ifixit2@hotmail(dot)com> wrote:
> "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" <donna....@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
> messagenews:isDsj.931$fX7.433@nlpi061.nbdc.sbc.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 22:14:39 +1100, Only Just wrote:
> >> This is all very good but can you trust the figures given by the
> >> manufacturers as these are often derived by engineer calculations and
> >> marketing guru's and are manipulated to suit their agenda.
>
> > Hi Only Just,
>
> > I *think* you *can* trust these numbers (FHR & ER) ... but I'm just going
> > by the written facts. You have the experience I don't have.
>
> > The facts are that there are *independent* labs paid to *verify* that
> > these
> > FHR and ER numbers are accurate, for example, OSHA recognizes ITSNA whose
> > numbers I quoted throughout the latter half of this thread.
>
> >http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_id=16637&p_ta...
>
> > Gama says, as of December 12, 2007, "Intertek Testing Services of
> > Cortland,
> > New York (http://www.intertek.com/) has been retained as the program
> > administrator and *independent* testing laboratory responsible for
> > conducting efficiency *verification* tests on water heaters" (emphasis
> > mine).
>
> > If Intertek is truly "independent", and if they do randomly select units
> > as
> > their product literature says, then I think you *can* trust these numbers.
>
> > Donna
>
> The reason I brought up about the tests is that I have been informed that
> the manufactures of refrigerators here in Aus have been using "Energy Star"
> ratings for quite a while, The way they now measure these results is also
> based on "Peak" start-up current so now the manufactures stagger the start
> of all the motors in a refrig, eg, compressor starts then after a set period
> the inner fan will start then the outside fan will start thus reducing that
> start-up peak so it "Reduces" the energy rating so making it a more
> desirable unit for the "Greenies" and the power saving conscious people but
> only hiding the true power consumed, Also there has been numerous letters
> written into the newspaper tech here about people not getting the same fuel
> economy in their new vehicle that they bought and the result that they were
> replied to was that they are only figures supplied by the manufacturer that
> some test results came up with so they can compare different vehicles as set
> by an industry standard. Remember that these tests are designed by the
> industry and no matter who carries out the same tests providing that they
> are using the same standards and criteria they will also receive the same
> results to match.
> Justy.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I don't believe it's accurate to say these tests were designed by the
industry. The manufacturers of water heaters certainly gave there
opinions and suggestions, but the actual test standards were arrived
at by the EPA. And different manufacturers have different opinions
of how the various water heaters should be tested. They were not even
close to being all in agreement.

However, I do agree with most of what you posted. Tests have to
assume some type of typical usage to come up with a way to do the
tests. And just like with cars, your mileage may vary, especially
if your usage is substantially different than the tests. And once
the tests are set in place, manufacturers will start to tweak there
designs to play the spec game. That's why I wouldn't go crazy trying
to figure this out to the last decimal place.

When I needed a new water heater, I went with another 50 gal unit,
which was what I already had. I did look at the energy efficieny
ratings and concluded that for my usage an average unit would be
fine. I went down to HD, bought it and installed it in one day. It
has a eff rating of .56, and cost me I think about $300 7 years ago.
I wasn't gonna lose sleep worrying over whether a .58 or .61 was gonna
make enough difference to be worth it.

I did get a 10 year warranty, which came in handy about 2 years ago.
The thermocouple went and State, who was the manufacturer, had a new
one here in 2 days for free.

== 2 of 8 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 13 2008 5:17 pm
From: "Lou"

"James Sweet" <jamessweet@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:xAxsj.159$sh.74@trnddc07...
>
> "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote
in
> message news:SOvsj.404$Mh2.256@nlpi069.nbdc.sbc.com...
> > On Tue, 12 Feb 2008 21:02:20 GMT, Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
> >> Permits can very , but probably closer to $25 if you actually get one.
> >
> > You must get a plumbing permit in my town:
> > Home Depot charges $77
> > Lowes charges almost $90
> > Sears charges $95 for that same permit.
> >
> > The overall installation fee (includes all sans tax & straps) is:
> > $400 Home Depot 877-467-0542
> > $410 Lowes 877-465-6937
> > $433 Sears 800-877-6420
> >
> > What would a typical plumber have charged for the permit and
installation?
> >
> > Donna
>
> Jeez.
>
> I'd feel like I was ripping someone off if I charged more than 100 bucks
to
> install a water heater, but then I'm not licensed or bonded so I don't do
> this for random people, but still, last one I did took less than an hour,
> it's literally 3 threaded pipes and a flue vent.

So, how are you counting your time? The work itself may take an hour or so,
but the plumber also has to drive to and from the installation site, and
that takes time. Sometimes the plumber will also have to drive to the store
or warehouse and pick up the heater.

And let's not forget that in order to drive, s/he needs a vehicle, one that
is probably more or less dedicated to the business, and that has to be paid
for also.

According to http://www.careeroverview.com/plumbing-careers.html the median
wage for a plumber in 2002 was $19.30/hour. Assuming a 40 hour work week
for 50 weeks a year, that comes to $38,600/year. Doesn't sound like a way
to get rich quick.

A question on the cost of the permit - how much would it cost if you went to
the town office and got the permit yourself?

== 3 of 8 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 13 2008 5:46 pm
From: "Lou"

"Only Just" <ifixit2@hotmail(dot)com> wrote in message
news:47b2d11e$1@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
((snip))

>
> This is all very good but can you trust the figures given by the
> manufacturers as these are often derived by engineer calculations and
> marketing guru's and are manipulated to suit their agenda.
> an example of this is how many people ever get the rated fuel consumption
as
> stated by any vehicle manufacturers, also appliance manufactures have
> devised ways of confusing the figures to get a better rating that it
> actually uses. The best way to purchase the water system is to get one
that
> suits your requirements as in size and water capacity.

Vehicle mileage estimates, or for that matter any estimates, are based on a
load of assumptions. Your actual experience will vary according to how
closely your situation matches the assumptions. By the way, vehicle
manufacturers follow a standard test procedure specified by federal law, and
the EPA confirms 10%-15% of the results by conducting its own tests.

I agree that the rated fuel consumption for motor vehicles is off - I
haven't averaged that low for at least 15 years. For instance, my car is
rated 20/29 for city/highway - last week I averaged 33.2 mpg in about 440
miles of mixed driving according to the car's odometer and the reading on
the pump when I gassed up on Friday evening. According the average mileage
display on the dashboard of the car, I got 34.1 mpg, and I suppose the
difference could be due to the attendant (no self service gas in NJ) filling
the tank right up to the gas cap and/or inaccuracies in the pump or
odometer, or even simply to the fact that I fill up the tank at the end of
the day (when the car and the gas is at its warmest) but do about half my
driving in the morning (when the gas is the coolest). Which means simply
that a full measured gallon on a Friday afternoon is probably less than a
gallon on Monday morning simply due to the expansion and contraction that go
with changes in temperature.

== 4 of 8 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 13 2008 6:00 pm
From: "Lou"

"Bob Shuman" <reshuman@removethis.alcatel-lucent.com> wrote in message
news:47b301a4$1@news.alcatel.com...
> A quick comment on warranty period and the AVERAGE home gas water heater
> life.
>
> The AVERAGE is exactly that: an average or mean calculation of the life
for
> all units shipped/sold. The real life span is affected by many things,
> including the water quality/hardness (it consumes the anode quicker), the
> temperature setting you select (hotter means it builds more internal
> pressure and you get a shorter life) and the amount of hot water that you
> use (more cycles of the burner mean a shorter life).
>
> I am on my third gas HWH and purchased the house new in 1991. The first
> heater lasted about 7 years and the second 6.5 years. I had a 7-year
> warranty on the tank from Sears and they gave me a replacement free of
> charge which has been in now for over 5 years. I believe that I will get
a
> longer life this time around since two of my children are no longer living
> at home.
>
> The bottom line here is that the warranty period may be important
depending
> on your circumstances. It is basically a cheap insurance policy that
covers
> only the cost of a replacement heater. For me, that was important since I
> do the installation myself, but for someone hiring a plumber, the material
> cost could easily be less than the labor and associated miscellaneous
> expenses (permits).

I think it matters no matter who does the installation - either way, you
didn't have pay for a new heater.

== 5 of 8 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 13 2008 6:10 pm
From: "Lou"

<hallerb@aol.com> wrote in message
news:d8313227-a022-497b-89ef-8cdca898a02e@s37g2000prg.googlegroups.com...

> warrantys are sales tools, they rarely help the purchaser much. wheres
> your original invoice?

You keep all of that stuff, and not just in case you ever need to invoke the
warranty - you keep it for tax or insurance purposes.

You keep this stuff in a file folder in a drawer - it takes a few second to
put it there when you buy something new. Or in the case of something like a
water heater, you put it in a plastic bag and tape it to the appliance.

== 6 of 8 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 13 2008 6:26 pm
From: "Lou"

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
message news:9wxsj.5939$xq2.1758@newssvr21.news.prodigy.net...
> On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 21:49:53 -0700, Rick Blaine wrote:
> >>What's the easiest way to compare heat leakage between two water
heaters?
> >
> > Look at the yellow energy label on the heaters. The annual cost to
operate
> > printed there can be compared on different models.
>
> Actually, since my cost per therm is far from the average used for those
> stickers, the sticker numbers are innacurate in my situation.

The labels show the estimated annual energy usage AND the estimated annual
cost, based on an average cost of fuel. Take the energy usage and multiply
by your own fuel cost assumptions.

> The sticker numbers might work to roughly compare two models in
performance
> but they don't work to calculate the true payback period for two models.
>
> For that, the math I've posted today should be sufficient (assuming the
> calculations hold water under scrutiny of this esteemed group).

I doubt that your calculations are "true" - in the way that you initially
didn't account for the time value of money, I didn't see that you took into
account the changing cost of fuel. What is today a $25.00 annual saving
could be a $50.00, $75.00, $100.00 (make your own assumptions) annual saving
a year or three down the line. Nor did you account for general inflation,
or even the normal tendency for people's income to rise over time - today's
annual payback might mean an hour or two of work a year, but assuming
constant fuel costs, it'll probably be less work time a year or two down the
line.

You can estimate payback periods only by making a cat's cradle of
assumptions.

== 7 of 8 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 13 2008 7:21 pm
From: "James Sweet"

> I agree that the rated fuel consumption for motor vehicles is off - I
> haven't averaged that low for at least 15 years. For instance, my car is
> rated 20/29 for city/highway - last week I averaged 33.2 mpg in about 440
> miles of mixed driving according to the car's odometer and the reading on
> the pump when I gassed up on Friday evening. According the average
> mileage
> display on the dashboard of the car, I got 34.1 mpg, and I suppose the
> difference could be due to the attendant (no self service gas in NJ)
> filling
> the tank right up to the gas cap and/or inaccuracies in the pump or
> odometer, or even simply to the fact that I fill up the tank at the end of
> the day (when the car and the gas is at its warmest) but do about half my
> driving in the morning (when the gas is the coolest). Which means simply
> that a full measured gallon on a Friday afternoon is probably less than a
> gallon on Monday morning simply due to the expansion and contraction that
> go
> with changes in temperature.
>
>

The expansion and contraction based on temperature for a volume as small as
a tank of fuel in a car are so tiny that you'd never be able to measure them
with anything around the house, and certainly not the odometer in your car.
The fuel temperature varies over a range of perhaps 60F max, usually much
less.

== 8 of 8 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 13 2008 10:07 pm
From: John Robertson

Bob Shuman wrote:
> A quick comment on warranty period and the AVERAGE home gas water heater
> life.
>
> The AVERAGE is exactly that: an average or mean calculation of the life for
> all units shipped/sold. The real life span is affected by many things,
> including the water quality/hardness (it consumes the anode quicker), the
> temperature setting you select (hotter means it builds more internal
> pressure and you get a shorter life) and the amount of hot water that you
> use (more cycles of the burner mean a shorter life).
>
> I am on my third gas HWH and purchased the house new in 1991. The first
> heater lasted about 7 years and the second 6.5 years. I had a 7-year
> warranty on the tank from Sears and they gave me a replacement free of
> charge which has been in now for over 5 years. I believe that I will get a
> longer life this time around since two of my children are no longer living
> at home.
>

The gas water heater in my house was old when I bought the place in
1998...and it is still running fine. I think it is about twenty years
old - no leaks so far! And I had three teenagers living here for a
number of years...

John :-#)#

> The bottom line here is that the warranty period may be important depending
> on your circumstances. It is basically a cheap insurance policy that covers
> only the cost of a replacement heater. For me, that was important since I
> do the installation myself, but for someone hiring a plumber, the material
> cost could easily be less than the labor and associated miscellaneous
> expenses (permits).
>
> Good luck in whatever you choose.
>
> Bob
>
> "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
> message news:bIxsj.57494$Pv2.13701@newssvr23.news.prodigy.net...
>> On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 21:20:35 -0700, Rick Blaine wrote:
>>>> Heating less water costs less, even with equally efficient heaters.
>>> Sigh. Absolutely true and totally meaningless within the context of this
>>> discussion.
>>> Hint: Direct energy cost is based on _use_ and efficiency, not _capacity_
>>> and
>>> efficiency.
>> It turns out Rick is right.
>>
>> The size of the home water heater (e.g., 40 gallons, 50 gallons, etc.) is
>> nearly meaningless, as is the warranty period.
>>
>> The only way the tank size plays any role in the selection process for
>> purely physical reasons. Why? Because both the EF and the FHR already take
>> into account the size of the holding tank so there is no need to even
>> bother to look at tank size (other than for purely physical reasons).
>>
>> Likewise, the warranty is always less than the average lifetime of a home
>> water heater, which, at 13 years, is vastly greater than the 1-year labor
>> warrantees all the heaters I looked at (from Sears, Lowes, and Home Depot)
>> provided. (Note: The 12yr/9yr/6yr/etc. warranty figures often quoted by
>> Sears/Lowes/HomeDepot are for PARTS! Not labor).
>>
>> Thanks everyone for enlightening me ... If I didn't know better, I'd buy
>> by
>> the size of the tank and the warranty but now I know they are meaningless
>> figures. The manufacturer WANTS you to look there but in reality, the
>> truthy lies in the FHV, EF, and cost/therm.
>>
>> I didn't realize you guys knew so much about home water heaters ... but
>> I'm
>> glad you do. In only two days, I was able to take my knowledge level, with
>> your help, from absolutely nothing to being able make basic lifetime cost
>> comparisons given any two home heaters.
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> Donna
>
>

--
(Please post followups or tech inquiries to the newsgroup)
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)

www.flippers.com

"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."

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http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/6ee953e58ab532e4?hl=en
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TOPIC: Skilled Nursing Homes - What Are They?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/3d58f9d2c84502ae?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 13 2008 5:54 pm
From: The Real Bev

pingtion@126.com wrote:

> A skilled nursing home is a medical facility providing services
> similar to a hospital. The homes are staffed with licensed nurses,
> shared rooms, hospital beds, regular scheduled doctor rounds, meals
> and housekeeping. Skilled nursing homes often provide a more pleasant
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They can also be a dumping ground for patients too sick to go home, not
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--
Cheers, Bev
=====================================================================
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is it such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet?

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 13 2008 6:29 pm
From: pc

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I had hoped with my new eeepc, I would have been able to use the
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So, if anybody has any further ideas I'm all ears.

..PC

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