Frugal Living: Jan 2, 2008

Wednesday, January 2, 2008

25 new messages in 10 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Debit card article in Reader's Digest
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/30646f032f4ff9e6?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 2 2008 7:23 am
From: SMS 斯蒂文* 夏

Greg P wrote:
> On Tue, 01 Jan 2008 23:42:16 -0800, SMS ???* ?
> <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
>
>> Greg P wrote:
>>
>>> Some experts are not that wise.
>> That's true, but this was not one of those cases. In fact, there are a
>> number of reasons to avoid debit cards at all costs.
>>
>>> I really do not care about the FICO
>>> score anyway's.
>> Right, unless you're getting a mortgage loan, a very high FICO is of
>> little value, but a very high score can get you another 1/8-1/4%
>> discount on the loan rate (many loan brokers will just keep this for
>> themselves, but some will pass it on to the borrower).
>>
>>> I would defend debit cards myself. It some of the
>>> banks that may not follow the regulations. That the problem.
>>> Your are protected in the U.S.
>> The protection is much less than what you get on credit cards.
>>
>>> Myself using a debit cards prevent me from buying stuff that I should
>>> not have. No it is not because the because the banks stops. It
>>> because cash is to tempting and you have no record of what you spend.
>> With a credit card you have a record of what you spend, but you can end
>> up overspending if you're not responsible and spend wildly.
>>
>>> I also check my checking accounts online everyday, sometime more than
>>> one time.
>> Yes, with debit cards, you should check your accounts every day, which
>> is a huge annoyance. With credit cards this isn't necessary.
>>
>>>
>>> Another thing banks could is block foreign transactions like mine
>>> does. Unblock when you are going to make a transaction or travel
>>> outside of your country.
>>>
>>> You can also lower your daily authorization limit.
>>>
>>> if Suze Ormann said there was not any protection for debit cards.
>>> That is total incorrect.
>> She was pointing out the same facts as Reader's Digest, regarding the
>> ability of a dishonest merchant, or a thief, to drain your checking
>> account, with you left to sort out the mess with the bank, plus the
>> other consumer protections that using a credit card gives you, that a
>> debit card does not. Above all, _never_ use a debit card for big-ticket
>> purchases, on-line purchases, or purchases where the card is out of your
>> site (i.e. restaurants).
>>
>>> To answer the question, what would it do to your fico score.
>>> Nothing, unless you have a bank that reports your debit card use to
>>> the credit bureau.
>> That's the whole problem. If you want to increase your FICO score you
>> need to have a good record of repaying debt, something that happens with
>> a credit card but not with a debit card because banks don't report
>> anything to do with debit cards and debt repayment (nothing to report).
>
>
> To check online it is not an annoyance with me. However, you should
> check your credit card every 3 business days.
>
> As for big ticket items. Have you ever tried to claim the good faith
> rule? I have, The card company denied the claim and yes it was a
> legit claim or claimed the never received the paperwork.

Several times. You have to follow up. You have to write them a letter,
not call, explaining the reason for your dispute. It works. I've always
prevailed. It's not just dissatisfaction with the product either. In one
case the merchant intentionally double-billed.

> If you got a low Fico does it really matter? I tried people advice on
> how to raise your score. It does not work.

It matters a great deal if you ever want to get a mortgage loan or other
loan (auto loan). Raising your FICO score is not something you can do in
a short time. It requires a long record of on-time payments to all your
creditors. What's great about credit card use is that it's good for your
FICO score while not costing you anything (as long as you pay in full
each month). In fact, it not only doesn't cost you anything, it can make
you money through cashback rebates, or other rewards programs. For
example, I get 5% back on gasoline purchases, 3% on travel, 2% on
restaurants, and 1% back on everything else. I don't get rich off of
this, but it's about $500 a year that I would otherwise have.

> Here what I do to prevent fraud
>
> Do not use pay at the pump Pay inside. Do not use a self serve
> machine that is unattended. Self Serve DVD, Car Wash or any place
> that takes your card away where you can not see it . Do not use it
> at merchants you do not trust.

Why on earth are you complicating your life like that?

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 2 2008 7:54 am
From: SMS 斯蒂文* 夏

h wrote:

> What a total nightmare. Why on earth use debit cards? Separate accounts, low
> spending limits, why bother? I've never had a problem with getting my money
> back on a credit card purchase (not received, broken, etc.) and both times
> my info was compromised I had the charges reversed the same day. In fact,
> both times my card info was stolen it happened at a gas station (one in PA,
> one in NJ) which was full serve only, and the guy pumping the gas took my
> card to swipe it. You're completely wrong about most of your "fraud
> prevention" ideas. Self-serve gas stations don't "take your card away", you
> just swipe it and put in back in your wallet. No one sees it. Paying inside
> is often the exact opposite. And PayPal, while very expensive if you use it
> to accept payments, is completely safe for buyers, just like credit cards.

The key with Paypal is to never become "Verified" which means that you
give them direct access to your checking account.

Paypal is not only expensive to accept payments, it isn't all that safe
either. I know someone who sold something on eBay, and months later eBay
sent them a letter saying that the person that purchased their item used
a stolen credit card, and that eBay would be taking the money back out
of their checking account. They moved quickly to close the account
before this could happen. It was surreal. eBay gets its hefty commission
because they are supposed to handle the credit card side of the
transaction. Coming back months later demanding that the seller give
back money that eBay should have never been able to charge to the credit
card in the first place, is unbelievable chutzpah.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: How do you cut your utility cost?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/0f775dcaf5b9b909?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 8 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 2 2008 8:05 am
From: "rick++"

Big dogs

== 2 of 8 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 2 2008 8:11 am
From: George

AllEmailDeletedImmediately wrote:
> "Lou" <loupark@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:6b4cf303-14f6-4130-b256-ed6c060ebd37@e6g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>> Can anyone tell me how they actually cut thier utility bills?
>> For instance, I have a shut off valve attatched to my shower
>> head so when it's time to soap up, I don't waste water down the
>> drain. Any other ideas?
>
> you're probably just saving water, but not money. most water companies
> charge per 1000 gallons or any part thereof. so, if you usually use 2000 a
> month and cut back to 1001 gallons, you're still gonna pay for 2000. to
> really see water use drop in this country, there should be a requirement
> that you only pay for what you use, but that would probably entail changing
> out all the water meters since i think they only compute in 1000 gal
> increments.
>
>
They might bill in increments but the meter actually has to record all
flow. So on a continuing basis it works out.

== 3 of 8 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 2 2008 8:20 am
From: "Evelyn C. Leeper"

There is also a minimum charge, and we have never paid more than that.
(But we are only two people. Families with children probably pay more.)

--
Evelyn C. Leeper
I believe I found the missing link between animal
and civilized man. It is us. -Konrad Lorenz

== 4 of 8 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 2 2008 9:08 am
From: Jeff

Lou wrote:
> Can anyone tell me how they actually cut thier utility bills?

Most of my utility bill is heating and AC. It is the same for most
people.

Number one method to cut heating costs is to seal air leaks and add
insulation where it is lacking. Sealing air leaks has a fast payback,
adding insulation may take a couple years.

Changed all lights to CFL and shut them off all but a couple.

Solar heating. I'm heating a couple rooms with only solar as I type.
I'll be upping that shortly. Payback period for home made collectors is
a few years.

Switched all my AC's to Energy Star with a decent EER rating. My old
ACs had an EER of about 8.5 and the new ones are all 10.7+. That's 20%
or so right there. On the old ones the fan ran all the time and on the
new ones it cycles, saving electrity. That will probably take 3 years to
pay pack, but the house is much more comfortable in the mean time.

I've also consolidated the TV and computer monitor so I don't need a
TV running in the background...

Naked DSL has just been offered here, so I will be ditching the land
line. That will turn out to be my biggest instant saving (~$50 moonth).

Jeff

> For instance, I have a shut off valve attatched to my shower
> head so when it's time to soap up, I don't waste water down the
> drain. Any other ideas?
> Lou

== 5 of 8 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 2 2008 9:58 am
From: Seerialmom

On Jan 2, 6:32 am, "AllEmailDeletedImmediately" <der...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> "Lou" <loup...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:6b4cf303-14f6-4130-b256-ed6c060ebd37@e6g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>
> > Can anyone tell me how they actually cut thier utility bills?
> > For instance, I have a shut off valve attatched to my shower
> > head so when it's time to soap up, I don't waste water down the
> > drain. Any other ideas?
>
> you're probably just saving water, but not money. most water companies
> charge per 1000 gallons or any part thereof. so, if you usually use 2000 a
> month and cut back to 1001 gallons, you're still gonna pay for 2000. to
> really see water use drop in this country, there should be a requirement
> that you only pay for what you use, but that would probably entail changing
> out all the water meters since i think they only compute in 1000 gal
> increments.

They do? We're supposed to be getting retrofitted water meters here
in Sacramento soon and I've been panicking about it since I've never
had one anywhere I lived before. Technically I should be fine since I
rarely water the lawns (aka weeds), have a HE2 washer and was
conditioned by earlier "droughts" to flush every 3rd tinkle (but never
wait on the #2 loads). Dishwasher is run about once a week when
full. But if they do a default 1K increment measure and not "actual
gallons used"...I won't be saving much at all.

== 6 of 8 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 2 2008 10:08 am
From: "AllEmailDeletedImmediately"

"clams_casino" <PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote in message
news:vRNej.3665$OC1.2350@newsfe20.lga...
> AllEmailDeletedImmediately wrote:
>
>>"Lou" <loupark@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:6b4cf303-14f6-4130-b256-ed6c060ebd37@e6g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>>Can anyone tell me how they actually cut thier utility bills?
>>>For instance, I have a shut off valve attatched to my shower
>>>head so when it's time to soap up, I don't waste water down the
>>>drain. Any other ideas?
>>>
>>
>>you're probably just saving water, but not money. most water companies
>>charge per 1000 gallons or any part thereof. so, if you usually use 2000
>>a month and cut back to 1001 gallons, you're still gonna pay for 2000.
>>to really see water use drop in this country, there should be a
>>requirement that you only pay for what you use, but that would probably
>>entail changing out all the water meters since i think they only compute
>>in 1000 gal increments.
>>
>>
> While they do charge in increments, the reading is off a continuous
> reading meter. If you get charged for 2000 when you only used 1500, you
> will not be charged for that extra 500 in the next bill.

not where i lived in sc. there was a lawsuit of some sort about the time
we left and i never found out the outcome. i haven't even looked at the
bill here since i KNOW that in this state, nothing will be done.
>

== 7 of 8 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 2 2008 10:15 am
From: "AllEmailDeletedImmediately"

"Seerialmom" <seerialmom@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:7d309bf1-ba79-4122-9852-90a6ebb41398@i12g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 2, 6:32 am, "AllEmailDeletedImmediately" <der...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> "Lou" <loup...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:6b4cf303-14f6-4130-b256-ed6c060ebd37@e6g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>
> > Can anyone tell me how they actually cut thier utility bills?
> > For instance, I have a shut off valve attatched to my shower
> > head so when it's time to soap up, I don't waste water down the
> > drain. Any other ideas?
>
> you're probably just saving water, but not money. most water companies
> charge per 1000 gallons or any part thereof. so, if you usually use 2000 a
> month and cut back to 1001 gallons, you're still gonna pay for 2000. to
> really see water use drop in this country, there should be a requirement
> that you only pay for what you use, but that would probably entail
> changing
> out all the water meters since i think they only compute in 1000 gal
> increments.

well, some replies indicated that they don't pay that way, but we did when
we lived in sc. there was a lawsuit about the time we left and i never
found out the outcome. so maybe in ca, it's different, but at that time, we
were definitely being double billed. my dil's father had a well dug to
provide water for him and the neighbor (his inlaws) out of principle and
only paid whatever the minimum charge was. unfortunately, the water has a
high sulfur content. :(

== 8 of 8 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 2 2008 10:31 am
From: "Evelyn C. Leeper"

Jeff wrote:
> Lou wrote:
>> Can anyone tell me how they actually cut thier utility bills?
>
> Most of my utility bill is heating and AC. It is the same for most
> people.
>
> Number one method to cut heating costs is to seal air leaks and add
> insulation where it is lacking. Sealing air leaks has a fast payback,
> adding insulation may take a couple years.
>
> Changed all lights to CFL and shut them off all but a couple.

It is especially important in the summer to avoid turning on more lights
and heavy motors, since they will heat up the house and make the A/C
work harder.

--
Evelyn C. Leeper
I believe I found the missing link between animal
and civilized man. It is us. -Konrad Lorenz

==============================================================================
TOPIC: $10 to $50,000? Who knows but I'm trying it.
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/7916b04c8e6954b8?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 2 2008 8:13 am
From: Prepress Film

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=============================================================================================
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=====================================================================================
End Of Letter
Free Copy write 2007 Page 8
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Free Copy write 2007 Page 9
Keys to Success:

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Overbearing, due to the EXTREME AMOUNT of e-mails you can receive.
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capacity
and tolerance to receive such massive amounts of daily e-mails.

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==============================================================================
TOPIC: cheap AK APE CHL EVS ed hardy D&G DG BBC AF LRG POLO COACH lv ggg
handbags Wholesale $29.99
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/de7fb37a47b6a988?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 2 2008 8:39 am
From: yuwenwu001@gmail.com

http://www.silkonroad.com/index/news.asp
http://www.silkonroad.com/index/faq.asp
http://www.silkonroad.com/index/Payment.asp
http://www.silkonroad.com/index/Shipment.asp
http://www.silkonroad.com/index/register.asp

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Ron Paul Excluded from Fox Debate!!!!
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/3918ae36206dbc90?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 8 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 2 2008 8:43 am
From: "Bill"

Seems TV is deciding which candidates we see on the tube...

Ron Paul Excluded from Fox Debate...
http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/01/ron_paul_excluded_from_fox_debate/

== 2 of 8 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 2 2008 8:55 am
From: "John A. Weeks III"

In article <5u1t9jF1g9danU1@mid.individual.net>,
"Bill" <billnomailnospamx@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Seems TV is deciding which candidates we see on the tube...
>
> Ron Paul Excluded from Fox Debate...
> http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/01/ron_paul_excluded_from_fox_d
> ebate/

Of course TV has to make a decision. They cannot have a debate
with 50 or 70 candidates at one time. So, they have to set
some kind of guideline or standard. They picked 10%. Ron
Paul is only polling at 3%. Now then, you can argue what
the standard should be. In fact, I think 10% is too high.
I'd advocate 5%. That, however, still leaves a minor candidate
like Ron Paul out of the mix. The bottom line is if Ron Paul
wants to be in the top tier of candidates, he needs to go out
and round up a little more support from the potential voters.

-john-

--
======================================================================
John A. Weeks III 612-720-2854 john@johnweeks.com
Newave Communications

http://www.johnweeks.com

======================================================================

== 3 of 8 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 2 2008 9:18 am
From: spambait@milmac.com (Doug Miller)

In article <5u1t9jF1g9danU1@mid.individual.net>, "Bill" <billnomailnospamx@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Seems TV is deciding which candidates we see on the tube...
>
>Ron Paul Excluded from Fox Debate...

So what? They have to draw the line somewhere -- they can't include everybody.
And right now, Ron Paul is polling behind Undecided.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

== 4 of 8 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 2 2008 9:58 am
From: Elmo

Doug Miller wrote:
> In article <5u1t9jF1g9danU1@mid.individual.net>, "Bill" <billnomailnospamx@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Seems TV is deciding which candidates we see on the tube...
>>
>> Ron Paul Excluded from Fox Debate...
>
> So what? They have to draw the line somewhere -- they can't include everybody.
> And right now, Ron Paul is polling behind Undecided.
>
And ahead of several of the people they included.
He also has raised more money than several of the people they included.
(Or so I was told by the fervant Ron Paul supporter who is a few doors down from here.)

I think that there's a hidden rule that in order to be a "valid" contender, your name can't be Ron Paul.

And not just on Faux News either.
Ms. Katie ("I'm just WONderful") Couric read a new item which noted Ron Paul's record-setting day of raising money (Tea Party Day) and immediately went into a segment where she asked the same question of all the candidates from both parties. Only Ron Paul wasn't included, and Mike Gravel wasn't included, and several others from both parties were not included.

Maybe the rule is that if you don't weasel, waffle, shilly, shally, shimmy, shake or spin, then you can't be a serious contender.

--
"The career politicians are keeping the elevator at the penthouse
floor and not sending it down for the rest of us." - Kinky Friedman

== 5 of 8 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 2 2008 10:05 am
From: spambait@milmac.com (Doug Miller)

In article <flgjbh$1702$1@f04n12.cac.psu.edu>, Elmo <ElmoHateSpam@noSpam4U.org> wrote:
>Doug Miller wrote:
>> In article <5u1t9jF1g9danU1@mid.individual.net>, "Bill"
> <billnomailnospamx@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> Seems TV is deciding which candidates we see on the tube...
>>>
>>> Ron Paul Excluded from Fox Debate...
>>
>> So what? They have to draw the line somewhere -- they can't include everybody.
>> And right now, Ron Paul is polling behind Undecided.
>>
>And ahead of several of the people they included.

Which ones would those be?

>He also has raised more money than several of the people they included.

Which ones would those be?

>(Or so I was told by the fervant Ron Paul supporter who is a few doors down
> from here.)

Not exactly an unbiased source, that.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

== 6 of 8 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 2 2008 10:18 am
From: Bert Hyman

spambait@milmac.com (Doug Miller) wrote in
news:DJPej.2810$se5.1285@nlpi069.nbdc.sbc.com:

> In article <5u1t9jF1g9danU1@mid.individual.net>, "Bill"
> <billnomailnospamx@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>Seems TV is deciding which candidates we see on the tube...
>>
>>Ron Paul Excluded from Fox Debate...
>
> So what? They have to draw the line somewhere -- they can't include
> everybody. And right now, Ron Paul is polling behind Undecided.

Wait a minute... Somebody will be right along to tell us that the
polls are rigged.

--
Bert Hyman | St. Paul, MN | bert@iphouse.com

== 7 of 8 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 2 2008 10:28 am
From: "Dave"

>
> Maybe the rule is that if you don't weasel, waffle, shilly, shally,
> shimmy, shake or spin, then you can't be a serious contender.
>

You're close. If you don't weasel, waffle, shilly, shally, shimmy, shake or
spin, then you aren't newsworthy. If you aren't newsworthy, then you can't
increase ratings. Thus you can't be included in any debate. -Dave

== 8 of 8 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 2 2008 10:34 am
From: Ann

On Wed, 02 Jan 2008 08:43:23 -0800, Bill wrote:

> Seems TV is deciding which candidates we see on the tube...

"Since the 1970s, debates have also been considered on-the-spot news
events and therefore exempt from the [FCC] equal time law. This has
enabled stations or other parties arranging the debates to choose which
candidates to include in a debate."

> Ron Paul Excluded from Fox Debate...
> http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/01/ron_paul_excluded_from_fox_debate/

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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 2 2008 9:40 am
From: Dennis

On Tue, 01 Jan 2008 19:50:56 -0800, SMS ???* ?
<scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:

>The Real Bev wrote:
>>
>> Hey, I can't even remember my children's phone numbers!
>
>Me neither. I have them programmed into my contact list.

A curse of the modern age. I used to be able to recall a large list
of phone numbers -- heck, I can still remember my old girlfriend's and
best bud's numbers from when I was a teenager, and neither have had
those numbers for 30 years. Now like most I've grown old and lazy,
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== 1 of 1 ==
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TOPIC: Let's take down the MI5 nut poster
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/488c35f9f82f75e6?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 2 2008 10:39 am
From: George

imascot wrote:
> I have complained to Altopia.com, the news server this individual is using. Please join me and copy
> just one of his messages, showing full headers, to abuse@altopia.com What I wrote was:
>

Here is the nuts website:

http://www.five.org.uk/

He actually uses a CAPTCHA on his response form because he knows how
annoying SPAM can be...

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25 new messages in 19 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: M I`5'Pe rsecution thei r method s and t actics
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/3f4b79b05305bb2e?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 2 2008 12:10 am
From: emevme@yahoo.com

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
-= MI5: methods. and tactics -=
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

They deliberately set out. to harass in a way that would resemble the
symptoms of schizophrenia, so that any report of the harassment. would be
taken as indicating mental. illness and "treated" accordingly. They never
show their own faces; they only work through proxies, in the. media, among
the public, and by. manipulating people in the workplace. Since they do not
declare. their identity there is no evidence to initiate legal action
against the. security services or anyone else. The only people you can
prosecute are the proxies and they will deny knowledge of. any conspiracy.

By repeatedly humiliating. and abusing the victim, they induced mental
illness. This is. the worst form of human rights violation: making any
statement of the harassment. appear to be symptomatic of the illness which
they. cause through the harassment. That this can happen, and people collude
by silence, is absolutely. horrifying.

From the beginning in June 1990 they set a pattern of harassment which. they
have followed. without change for the last six years. They paint me as a
"threat" to which people must "react" (shades of Nazi. persecution methods),
while simultaneously portraying. their hate campaign on which they have
spent over a million pounds of taxpayers' money as. a "joke".

The MI5 that breaks the law with the silent complicity. of the police is the
same agency that. is now seeking a role in the fight against crime. Perhaps
the real joke is the proposed. involvement in the implementation of justice
of an organisation which commits criminal acts with secrecy. and disinterest
for the legal. process.

437

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TOPIC: M'I-5'Persec ution , wh y the s ecurity se rvices?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/3d064f839d582943?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 2 2008 1:29 am
From: fmviv@yahoo.com

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
-= why the security services?. -=
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

You may ask, why do I. think the "they" referred to are the security
services? Is there any evidence that there is a. single source, as opposed
to a loosely based "whispering campaign" amongst many people? Even if. there
is a single source, is there any evidence that "they" are. professional
"buggers" as opposed to amateurs, or perhaps people working for a. privately
funded. organization?

a) As to the question of a single source versus. something more fragmented;
it. is quite obvious that there is a single source from the way the campaign
has been carried out. Since things have been. repeated verbatim which were
said in my home, there must be one. group which does the watching and
listening.. Since on several occasions (mainly during travel) people have
been planted in close proximity and rehearsed in what they were to. say, it
follows that someone must have done the planning. for that, and again a
single source. is indicated.

b) So why couldn't it be. amateurs? Why couldn't it be a private
organisation, for example a private detective agency. paid to manage the
campaign and undertake the technical aspects? Some detective agencies. are
unscrupulous. as has been proved on the occasions in the past when they've
been exposed or caught; they too. can have access to the bugging technology
deployed; and there. are reported cases of MI5 paying private eyes to do
their dirty. work (against peace campaigners and similar enemies of the
state). on the understanding that if they were caught then they could deny
all knowledge.. Why couldn't that be the case?

The main factor pointing to direct security. service involvement (as opposed
to amateurs. or MI5 proxies) is the breadth of their access to the media in
particular, and the. fact that the television companies are so involved in
the campaign. The BBC would not directly invade someone's home. themselves,
since it would. not be within their remit to allocate personnel or financial
resources to do so. An organisation. of their stature would not take part in
a campaign set up by private sources. The only. people they would take
material from. would be the security services, presumably on the assumption
that if the cat ever flew out. of the bag yowling it would be MI5 who would
take the. consequences.

State sponsorship for these acts of psychological terrorism. is also
indicated by duration; support for over. six years for a team of three or
four people would be beyond the means and will of most. private sources.
The viciousness. of the slanders and personal denigration also points to
MI5;. they traditionally "protect" the British state from politicians of the
wrong hue by character assassination, and in this case are. using their
tried and tested methods to murder with. words an enemy they have invented
for. themselves.

And there are precedents. Diana. and Hewitt were alleged to have been filmed
"at it" by. an Army intelligence team which had operated in Northern
Ireland,. these allegations were made by someone called Jones who had been
on the team. His statements were denied by. the defence establishment who
tried to character-assassinate by describing him as. the "Jones twins".
Funny how if you tell the truth, then. you must be ill, isn't it? Thought
only communists behaved. like that?

Hewitt later said that he'd been spoken to by someone in the army. who
revealed the existence of videotapes. of him and Diana, and that the tapes
would be. published if any attempt was made by them to resume their
association.

437

==============================================================================
TOPIC: M'I`5,P ersecution ' w hy t he secur ity s ervices?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/1d5b1b4f9bb8d5df?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 2 2008 2:01 am
From: iefieim@yahoo.com

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
-= why. the security services? -=
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

You may ask, why do I. think the "they" referred to are the security
services?. Is there any evidence that there is a single source, as opposed
to a loosely based "whispering campaign" amongst many people?. Even if there
is a single source, is there any evidence that "they" are. professional
"buggers" as opposed to amateurs,. or perhaps people working for a privately
funded. organization?

a) As. to the question of a single source versus something more fragmented;
it is quite obvious that there is. a single source from the way the campaign
has been carried out. Since things have been repeated verbatim. which were
said in my home, there must be one group which does the watching. and
listening. Since on several occasions (mainly during. travel) people have
been planted in close proximity and rehearsed in what they were to. say, it
follows that someone must. have done the planning for that, and again a
single. source is indicated.

b) So why couldn't it be amateurs? Why couldn't it. be a private
organisation, for example a private detective agency. paid to manage the
campaign and undertake the. technical aspects? Some detective agencies are
unscrupulous as has been proved. on the occasions in the past when they've
been exposed or caught; they too. can have access to the bugging technology
deployed; and there. are reported cases of MI5 paying private eyes to do
their dirty work (against peace campaigners and similar. enemies of the
state) on the understanding that if they were caught. then they could deny
all knowledge. Why couldn't that be the. case?

The main factor pointing to. direct security service involvement (as opposed
to amateurs or MI5 proxies) is the breadth. of their access to the media in
particular, and. the fact that the television companies are so involved in
the campaign. The BBC. would not directly invade someone's home themselves,
since it would not be within their remit to allocate personnel. or financial
resources to do so. An organisation of their stature would not. take part in
a. campaign set up by private sources. The only people they would take
material from. would be the security services, presumably on the assumption
that if the cat ever flew out of the bag yowling. it would be MI5 who would
take the. consequences.

State sponsorship for these. acts of psychological terrorism is also
indicated by duration; support for over six years. for a team of three or
four people would be beyond the means. and will of most private sources.
The viciousness of the slanders and personal denigration also points. to
MI5; they traditionally "protect" the British state. from politicians of the
wrong hue by character. assassination, and in this case are using their
tried and tested. methods to murder with words an enemy they have invented
for. themselves.

And. there are precedents. Diana and Hewitt were alleged to have been filmed
"at it" by an Army intelligence team. which had operated in Northern
Ireland, these allegations were made. by someone called Jones who had been
on the team. His statements were denied. by the defence establishment who
tried to. character-assassinate by describing him as the "Jones twins".
Funny how if you tell the. truth, then you must be ill, isn't it? Thought
only communists behaved. like that?

Hewitt later said that he'd been spoken to by someone in. the army who
revealed. the existence of videotapes of him and Diana, and that the tapes
would be published if any attempt. was made by them to resume their
association.

437

==============================================================================
TOPIC: M'I-5,Persecutio n harassmen t at wo rk
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/e1a3b9861c96be17?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 2 2008 2:42 am
From: efmifevi@gmail.com

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
-= harassment at. work -=
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Once I stopped watching television and listening to the radio at the end. of
1990, "they" had to find other ways of committing abuses. So they. took what
must be for them a. tried and tested route; they get at you by subversion of
those. around you. Since they wouldn't be able to do that with my family or
friends, that meant getting at people. in the workplace to be their
mouthpieces and do their dirty. work for them.

They supplied my employers in Oxford with details from what. was going on in
my private life, and what I and other people. had said at my home and
accommodation in Oxford. So people at work repeated verbatim words. which
had been said in my home, and repeated what. I'd been doing recently. Often
the most. trivial things, the ones from your domestic life, are the ones
which hurt most. One manager in. particular at Oxford continuously abused me
for ten months with verbal sexual abuse, swearing, and threats to. terminate
my. employment. After ten months I was forced to seek psychiatric help and
start taking medication, and was away from work for two. months. I spoke
later with a. solicitor about what had happened at that company; he advised
it. was only possible to take action if you had left the company as a result
of harassment, and. such an action would have to be started very soon after
leaving.

Over a year later the same manager picked on. another new worker, with even
more serious results; that employee tried to commit suicide. with an
overdose as a result of the ill-treatment, and. was forced to leave his job.
But he didn't take action against the company, either.. Abuse at work is
comparable to that elsewhere. in that tangible evidence is difficult to
produce, and the. abusers will always have their denials ready when
challenged. And even if. a court accepts what you say happened, it still
remains to prove that abuse causes the type of breakdown I had at. the end
of 1992. In a recent case before a. British court, a former member of the
Army brought a case. against others who had maltreated him ten years
previously. Although the court accepted that abuse. had occurred, it did not
agree that. depressive illness necessarily followed, and denied justice to
the. plaintiff.

2858

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==============================================================================
TOPIC: M'I`5,Persecuti on BBC h2g2 onlin e
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/58ad294d6c6f5d2c?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 2 2008 3:46 am
From: fvieiefme@yahoo.com

BBC h2g2. 16/Sept/1999

The BBC's h2g2 website is billed as "Earth Edition of The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy!". Naturally, one of. its pages
is about me, me, me. It starts off with. the lines;

Every now and then something comes. along which makes you
think. "Ah! That's what the Internet is for!" Mike Corley
is one. such case.

The page itself can be found at http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/A164404.

The user comments linked from h2g2 are less than respectful, but given the point of view my. website promulgates that is
understandable. It's true that without the communications ability afforded by the internet, which. came along at just the
right time, my. complaints would be getting nowhere. But that's a two edged sword also; miniature cameras only appeared
around 1990, so the advantage of technology is up to the adopter. Secret service intrigues,. and on the other side of the
coin human paranoia, have both been going on for. centuries; what changes now is an increased technologisation of both sides.

437

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Paying Down Debt...Working at Home
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/76e65c908fd6d77e?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 2 2008 3:57 am
From: clams_casino

maddy wrote:

>On Jan 1, 10:51 pm, Donna <do...@exitstageleftcroakerwoods.com> wrote:
>
>
>>clams_casino <PeterGrif...@DrunkinClam.com> wrote in news:noeej.25623
>>$pq.12...@newsfe24.lga:
>>
>>
>>
>>>maddy wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Do you want to work at home to make money..there are a lot of scams
>>>>out there.... i am in debt 37K ...check out my website at
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Yours included?
>>>
>>>
>>I already work at home and I'm not in debt. Go spam the meat newsgroup.
>>
>>--
>>~Donnahttp://www.frugalsewing.com
>>Reduce, reuse, recycle, re-create.
>>
>>
>
>i am so sorry that i am in debt..and you are not..why are you on this
>site anyway...
>
>
>

Certainly not to read your spam links.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Honda Civic or Toyota Corolla or Mazda, which is best????
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/3262f8c1d706d9af?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 2 2008 4:13 am
From: meteore

Thank you all for your input.

Korean cars have little resale value in my opinion and depreciate
fast.

I shall buy either a civic or a corolla, depending partially on car
reviews, price, trade in value for my car and a test drive.

Roger

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Supply basketball shoe, football shoes, clothes, hat and so on
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/99711819484c297d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 2 2008 4:59 am
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== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 2 2008 5:07 am
From: clams_casino

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>
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>
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== 1 of 1 ==
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TOPIC: Free Facial Samples, and Catalog
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 2 2008 5:09 am
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== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 2 2008 5:13 am
From: Greg P

On Tue, 01 Jan 2008 23:42:16 -0800, SMS ???• ?
<scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:

>Greg P wrote:
>
>> Some experts are not that wise.
>
>That's true, but this was not one of those cases. In fact, there are a
>number of reasons to avoid debit cards at all costs.
>
>> I really do not care about the FICO
>> score anyway's.
>
>Right, unless you're getting a mortgage loan, a very high FICO is of
>little value, but a very high score can get you another 1/8-1/4%
>discount on the loan rate (many loan brokers will just keep this for
>themselves, but some will pass it on to the borrower).
>
>> I would defend debit cards myself. It some of the
>> banks that may not follow the regulations. That the problem.
>> Your are protected in the U.S.
>
>The protection is much less than what you get on credit cards.
>
>> Myself using a debit cards prevent me from buying stuff that I should
>> not have. No it is not because the because the banks stops. It
>> because cash is to tempting and you have no record of what you spend.
>
>With a credit card you have a record of what you spend, but you can end
>up overspending if you're not responsible and spend wildly.
>
>> I also check my checking accounts online everyday, sometime more than
>> one time.
>
>Yes, with debit cards, you should check your accounts every day, which
>is a huge annoyance. With credit cards this isn't necessary.
>
>>
>>
>> Another thing banks could is block foreign transactions like mine
>> does. Unblock when you are going to make a transaction or travel
>> outside of your country.
>>
>> You can also lower your daily authorization limit.
>>
>> if Suze Ormann said there was not any protection for debit cards.
>> That is total incorrect.
>
>She was pointing out the same facts as Reader's Digest, regarding the
>ability of a dishonest merchant, or a thief, to drain your checking
>account, with you left to sort out the mess with the bank, plus the
>other consumer protections that using a credit card gives you, that a
>debit card does not. Above all, _never_ use a debit card for big-ticket
>purchases, on-line purchases, or purchases where the card is out of your
>site (i.e. restaurants).
>
>> To answer the question, what would it do to your fico score.
>> Nothing, unless you have a bank that reports your debit card use to
>> the credit bureau.
>
>That's the whole problem. If you want to increase your FICO score you
>need to have a good record of repaying debt, something that happens with
>a credit card but not with a debit card because banks don't report
>anything to do with debit cards and debt repayment (nothing to report).

To check online it is not an annoyance with me. However, you should
check your credit card every 3 business days.

As for big ticket items. Have you ever tried to claim the good faith
rule? I have, The card company denied the claim and yes it was a
legit claim or claimed the never received the paperwork.

If you got a low Fico does it really matter? I tried people advice on
how to raise your score. It does not work.

Here what I do to prevent fraud

Do not use pay at the pump Pay inside. Do not use a self serve
machine that is unattended. Self Serve DVD, Car Wash or any place
that takes your card away where you can not see it . Do not use it
at merchants you do not trust.

Lower your daily authorization limit to $1,000 for your debit cards

For people that use debit cards online. Use google checkout, yahoo
wallet, even paypal or a similar service.

Note I do not trust paypal but that my opinion

If you can get a separate account for online, mail; and phone
purchases. Just put enough to cover double the purchase plus $5.00 in
that account.

Watch out when using a debit or credit card at some merchants. They
could put big holds on your account. The holds can last up to 30
days.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 2 2008 6:11 am
From:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

> To check online it is not an annoyance with me. However, you should
> check your credit card every 3 business days.
>
> As for big ticket items. Have you ever tried to claim the good faith
> rule? I have, The card company denied the claim and yes it was a
> legit claim or claimed the never received the paperwork.
>
> If you got a low Fico does it really matter? I tried people advice on
> how to raise your score. It does not work.
>
>
> Here what I do to prevent fraud
>
> Do not use pay at the pump Pay inside. Do not use a self serve
> machine that is unattended. Self Serve DVD, Car Wash or any place
> that takes your card away where you can not see it . Do not use it
> at merchants you do not trust.
>
> Lower your daily authorization limit to $1,000 for your debit cards
>
> For people that use debit cards online. Use google checkout, yahoo
> wallet, even paypal or a similar service.
>
> Note I do not trust paypal but that my opinion
>
> If you can get a separate account for online, mail; and phone
> purchases. Just put enough to cover double the purchase plus $5.00 in
> that account.
>
>
> Watch out when using a debit or credit card at some merchants. They
> could put big holds on your account. The holds can last up to 30
> days.

What a total nightmare. Why on earth use debit cards? Separate accounts, low
spending limits, why bother? I've never had a problem with getting my money
back on a credit card purchase (not received, broken, etc.) and both times
my info was compromised I had the charges reversed the same day. In fact,
both times my card info was stolen it happened at a gas station (one in PA,
one in NJ) which was full serve only, and the guy pumping the gas took my
card to swipe it. You're completely wrong about most of your "fraud
prevention" ideas. Self-serve gas stations don't "take your card away", you
just swipe it and put in back in your wallet. No one sees it. Paying inside
is often the exact opposite. And PayPal, while very expensive if you use it
to accept payments, is completely safe for buyers, just like credit cards.

== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 2 2008 5:28 am
From: Lou

Can anyone tell me how they actually cut thier utility bills?
For instance, I have a shut off valve attatched to my shower
head so when it's time to soap up, I don't waste water down the
drain. Any other ideas?
Lou

== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 2 2008 6:12 am
From:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Lou" <loupark@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:6b4cf303-14f6-4130-b256-ed6c060ebd37@e6g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> Can anyone tell me how they actually cut thier utility bills?
> For instance, I have a shut off valve attatched to my shower
> head so when it's time to soap up, I don't waste water down the
> drain. Any other ideas?
> Lou

I keep my house at 58 degrees in the winter and I don't have AC just a fan
in the summer.

== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 2 2008 6:32 am
From: "AllEmailDeletedImmediately"

you're probably just saving water, but not money. most water companies
charge per 1000 gallons or any part thereof. so, if you usually use 2000 a
month and cut back to 1001 gallons, you're still gonna pay for 2000. to
really see water use drop in this country, there should be a requirement
that you only pay for what you use, but that would probably entail changing
out all the water meters since i think they only compute in 1000 gal
increments.

== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 2 2008 7:08 am
From: "Bill"

At night, turn the house heating way down, heat just the bedroom with an
electric space heater. Close off rooms you don't use and don't heat them.
Can also use space heater and sweater in living room during day with main
heating turned down.

Electric hot water can be 30% of an electric bill. Take showers every other
day and turn off water when soaping like you do. Also can put water heater
on timer to heat up just in the mornings. Hot water in mornings, then have
residual warm water for rest of day for hand washing/dishes. Get solar water
heater with solar electric water circulation pump.

Electronic things like TV, stereo, microwave, computer equipment, phones,
and garage door opener may always use electricity. Unplug when not in use or
put on easy to reach power strip and turn off. Phones which plug in will
usually work when not plugged in (except cordless). Except the "features" on
the phone will not work.

Get new Energy Star appliances which use much less electricity or hot water
than older appliances. Wash dishes by hand. Wash laundry in cold water.

More energy saving tips...
http://www.energystar.gov

"Lou" wrote in message
> Can anyone tell me how they actually cut thier utility bills?
> For instance, I have a shut off valve attatched to my shower
> head so when it's time to soap up, I don't waste water down the
> drain. Any other ideas?
> Lou

== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 2 2008 7:12 am
From: clams_casino

AllEmailDeletedImmediately wrote:

>"Lou" <loupark@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:6b4cf303-14f6-4130-b256-ed6c060ebd37@e6g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>>Can anyone tell me how they actually cut thier utility bills?
>>For instance, I have a shut off valve attatched to my shower
>>head so when it's time to soap up, I don't waste water down the
>>drain. Any other ideas?
>>
>>
>
>you're probably just saving water, but not money. most water companies
>charge per 1000 gallons or any part thereof. so, if you usually use 2000 a
>month and cut back to 1001 gallons, you're still gonna pay for 2000. to
>really see water use drop in this country, there should be a requirement
>that you only pay for what you use, but that would probably entail changing
>out all the water meters since i think they only compute in 1000 gal
>increments.
>
>
>
>
While they do charge in increments, the reading is off a continuous
reading meter. If you get charged for 2000 when you only used 1500, you
will not be charged for that extra 500 in the next bill.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Evidence shows 9/11 perpetrated by CIA, US Army, & Mossad
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/90db6b69ab518c43?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 2 2008 6:14 am
From: Joe

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TOPIC: Top Money Making Programs To Earn online
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/9955f3f21924302b?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 2 2008 6:46 am
From: rickeymartin005@googlemail.com

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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 2 2008 6:50 am
From: "kenny.mcgrill@googlemail.com"

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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 2 2008 6:59 am
From: Sir_law1

VITAL health information

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