Frugal Living: Sep 29, 2007

Saturday, September 29, 2007

9 new messages in 6 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

* How Marketing Manipulates You - 3 messages, 2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/2d9db3821c2b5972?hl=en
* Get Instant Life And Health Insurance Quotes! - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/7c5e83b55a4beb96?hl=en
* nike cheap sell wholesale shoes jordan shox air max force one gucci prada -
1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/70d3f3fc3f640ae5?hl=en
* Basic Bare Bones ISP ?? - 2 messages, 2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/60e9d2967289daf6?hl=en
* Free Ribs, Burrito, and Sub - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/adba6b456b271d8c?hl=en
* Cast Iron cookware hint; - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/4f802aea583b0d19?hl=en

==============================================================================
TOPIC: How Marketing Manipulates You
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/2d9db3821c2b5972?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 29 2007 7:41 pm
From: Too_Many_Tools

On Sep 29, 12:40 pm, Logan Shaw <lshaw-use...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
> Too_Many_Tools wrote:
> > Here is an example of how marketing will try to manipulate you to buy.
>
> > And when buying an used car overwhelmingly is a better deal in almost
> > all cases, the article chips away at that fact to push you into buying
> > new.
>
> I don't think the writer from The Motley Fool is a marketing person trying
> to get you to buy a new car rather than a used one. Instead, I think it's
> an article about the fact rules have exceptions. In this case, the rule
> that buying a late-model used car is a better deal than buying new is the
> rule with exceptions.
>
> And, as far as I can tell, it's a bona fide exception. In recent years,
> some hybrids have been just as expensive used as they have been new. In
> that case, buying used means getting an inferior product for the same price.
> Not a good deal, and definitely an exception to the rule.
>
> Of course, when used prices are the same as new, it does make things sound
> a little fishy, so what's going on? Well, personally, I think it's a matter
> of pricing quirks. Pricing is a complex thing. Think of supply and demand,
> but there are also a bunch of other variables, many of them psychological,
> that influence prices.
>
> The important thing in this case is that hybrid vehicles were an unexpected
> hit for the auto industry. They sold way more than they projected. So, what
> happens in the auto industry when a model is in much more demand than projected?
>
> Well, a couple of things. First, the auto industry works in such a way that
> the products (cars) almost always sell for less than the price on the sticker.
> There is some room for negotiation built in to the sticker price, and
> negotiating is the norm. Second, the auto industry is a pretty stable
> industry. Automakers stand to lose millions or billions if they introduce
> a model that's a flop, so they are pretty conservative with things. They
> usually have a pretty good idea in advance how well something is going to
> sell.
>
> So, in the auto industry, if a product is in strong demand, the automaker
> doesn't need to do all that much to adjust the sticker price. The leeway
> that's already built in for negotiating will generally take care of that;
> the dealers just get less flexible on how much they'll be talked down.
> And because prices are stable, not only do they not need to do much to
> the sticker price, but there is also not that much precedent for it.
> Automakers will adjust the sticker price by $500 or even $1000 sometimes
> during the course of a model-year, but not much more than that.
>
> The net result, I think, is that the demand went up but the prices stayed
> the same. And since the demand went up, the actual selling price rose.
> And since the demand went up spectacularly (by auto industry standards),
> the actual selling price rose to the point where it actually matched the
> sticker price. And when the sticker price is the actual selling price,
> you sell out of the cars. And if you're the auto industry, apparently
> you don't respond by raising the sticker price. You just let the cars
> get back-ordered. (And maybe you have reasons for doing this, like that
> the volume of orders is low and you stand to lose more in public relations
> than you gain in profits by raising the prices.)
>
> So what that amounts to is that the sticker price didn't budge (much?),
> and the prices on new hybrid cars became artificially low.
>
> But the same did not happen with used hybrid vehicles. The prices there
> weren't set by automakers but by individual used car lots. So they were
> free to set the price how they wanted. So the prices were not artificially
> low on used vehicles.
>
> So basically, the point is this: if prices are artificially low on new
> vehicles but aren't artificially low on used ones, then maybe it DOES make
> sense to buy a new vehicle.
>
> - Logan

Good discussion but....

Consider who paid this writer to write the article?

And why is Yahoo repeatily posting it?

I smell marketing attempting to make a sale.

TMT

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 29 2007 8:04 pm
From: Too_Many_Tools

Good discussion but....

Consider who paid this writer to write the article?

And why is Yahoo repeatily posting it?

I smell marketing attempting to make a sale.

TMT

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 29 2007 11:55 pm
From: Anthony Matonak

timeOday wrote:
> It's not just hybrids that keep their value, either.
> When I was looking at minivans, a 1-2 year old Honda or Toyota with up
> to 25K miles cost virtually as much used as new.

It's not just those either. Try pricing a used Lamborghini.

Anthony

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Get Instant Life And Health Insurance Quotes!
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/7c5e83b55a4beb96?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 29 2007 8:24 pm
From: DevBasic Marketing Support

If you are interested in buying a life insurance policy
you probably want to save as much money as you can.

Free life insurance quotes today.

http://www.illinois.devbasic.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=38&Itemid=46

==============================================================================
TOPIC: nike cheap sell wholesale shoes jordan shox air max force one gucci
prada
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/70d3f3fc3f640ae5?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 29 2007 9:00 pm
From: cheapestsell

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5.Shoes/Shoes/Shoes/rift/Sports shoes
6.fashion branded hoodies/jeans/caps/handbag/t-shirts and
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our msn : cheapestsell@hotmail.com

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Basic Bare Bones ISP ??
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/60e9d2967289daf6?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 29 2007 9:25 pm
From: "unreelistuk@aol.com"

Hi,

I used to have USA Datanet for an ISP, but they are getting out of
the ISP business, and sent us all over to Peoplepc. I don't like
Peoplepc so far. Too many ads I am paying $9.95 per month to watch,
and also too much banner on top using up the screen. no thanks.

USA Datanet was much better. Any ideas for a new bare bones / no ads
ISP ??

Thanks

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 29 2007 9:53 pm
From: aice

http://www.5dx.net

OHOH

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Free Ribs, Burrito, and Sub
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/adba6b456b271d8c?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 29 2007 10:13 pm
From: "TheBestFreebies.com"

--
The Best Freebies
All freebies are available at http://TheBestFreebies.com

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Cast Iron cookware hint;
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/4f802aea583b0d19?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 29 2007 10:32 pm
From: A Veteran

If you heat up a cast iron pan slowly it saves energy. try it!

--
when you believe the only tool you have is a hammer.
All problems look like nails.

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Google Groups: http://groups.google.com?hl=en

25 new messages in 15 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Crowd cheers as Tancredo blasts illegal -- and legal -- immigration in
U.S.
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/defc6d96c0bb0533?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 29 2007 11:45 am
From: "Sanders Kaufman"

"Thanatos" <tn113@imac.com> wrote in message
news:tn113-008D80.14242229092007@news.giganews.com...

> Ah, so if one doesn't choose to align themselves with either of
> big-money corrupt-a-thon political parties, they should be insulted and
> denigrated?

It's interesting to see Libertarians - who overwhelmingly voted FOR Bush -
to now claim that they are not aligned with any party.

The problem is not that you Libertarians don't align with the two parties.
It's more that you don't align with any principles, either.
The only thing the Libertarians uniformly believe is that the US government
is something to be hated, feared, and fought against.

If y'all actually stood FOR something, you could probably whip both parties
in every race.

== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 29 2007 12:49 pm
From: Thanatos

In article <C3xLi.37521$RX.14861@newssvr11.news.prodigy.net>,
"Sanders Kaufman" <bucky@kaufman.net> wrote:

> "Thanatos" <tn113@imac.com> wrote in message
> news:tn113-008D80.14242229092007@news.giganews.com...
>
> > Ah, so if one doesn't choose to align themselves with
> > either of big-money corrupt-a-thon political parties,
> > they should be insulted and denigrated?

> It's interesting to see Libertarians - who overwhelmingly
> voted FOR Bush - to now claim that they are not aligned
> with any party.

I never claimed to be a Libertarian. Nor did I vote for Bush. I'm merely
disdainful of the idea that there's any real difference between the two
political parties. They both operate on one overriding principle: the
acquisition of power and the $$$ it takes to do it.

> The problem is not that you Libertarians don't align
> with the two parties.

"You" Libertarians? Where did I ever claim to be such?

== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 29 2007 1:36 pm
From: "Bill Walker"

"Sanders Kaufman" <bucky@kaufman.net> wrote in message
news:C3xLi.37521$RX.14861@newssvr11.news.prodigy.net...
> "Thanatos" <tn113@imac.com> wrote in message
> news:tn113-008D80.14242229092007@news.giganews.com...
>
>> Ah, so if one doesn't choose to align themselves with either of
>> big-money corrupt-a-thon political parties, they should be insulted and
>> denigrated?
>
> It's interesting to see Libertarians - who overwhelmingly voted FOR Bush -
> to now claim that they are not aligned with any party.
>
> The problem is not that you Libertarians don't align with the two parties.
> It's more that you don't align with any principles, either.
> The only thing the Libertarians uniformly believe is that the US
> government is something to be hated, feared, and fought against.
>
> If y'all actually stood FOR something, you could probably whip both
> parties in every race.

There you go.. making another "libel".. Jeez, Kaufman.. you are
incorrigible..
>
>

== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 29 2007 1:38 pm
From: "Bill Walker"

"Thanatos" <atropos@mac.com> wrote in message
news:atropos-455113.15494429092007@news.giganews.com...
> In article <C3xLi.37521$RX.14861@newssvr11.news.prodigy.net>,
> "Sanders Kaufman" <bucky@kaufman.net> wrote:
>
>> "Thanatos" <tn113@imac.com> wrote in message
>> news:tn113-008D80.14242229092007@news.giganews.com...
>>
>> > Ah, so if one doesn't choose to align themselves with
>> > either of big-money corrupt-a-thon political parties,
>> > they should be insulted and denigrated?
>
>> It's interesting to see Libertarians - who overwhelmingly
>> voted FOR Bush - to now claim that they are not aligned
>> with any party.
>
> I never claimed to be a Libertarian. Nor did I vote for Bush. I'm merely
> disdainful of the idea that there's any real difference between the two
> political parties. They both operate on one overriding principle: the
> acquisition of power and the $$$ it takes to do it.
>
>> The problem is not that you Libertarians don't align
>> with the two parties.
>
> "You" Libertarians? Where did I ever claim to be such?

tsk.. tsk.. I apologize for Kaufman.. <sigh> I've been talking to him
about making a "libel" against all you Bushwores.. He just won't
listen..

== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 29 2007 2:45 pm
From: Thanatos

In article <UIyLi.661$P06.18@trnddc05>,
"Bill Walker" <bill.walker2@verizon.net> wrote:

> "Thanatos" <atropos@mac.com> wrote in message
> news:atropos-455113.15494429092007@news.giganews.com...
> > In article <C3xLi.37521$RX.14861@newssvr11.news.prodigy.net>,
> > "Sanders Kaufman" <bucky@kaufman.net> wrote:
> >
> >> "Thanatos" <tn113@imac.com> wrote in message
> >> news:tn113-008D80.14242229092007@news.giganews.com...
> >>
> >> > Ah, so if one doesn't choose to align themselves with
> >> > either of big-money corrupt-a-thon political parties,
> >> > they should be insulted and denigrated?
> >
> >> It's interesting to see Libertarians - who overwhelmingly
> >> voted FOR Bush - to now claim that they are not aligned
> >> with any party.
> >
> > I never claimed to be a Libertarian. Nor did I vote for
> > Bush. I'm merely disdainful of the idea that there's any
> > real difference between the two political parties. They
> > both operate on one overriding principle: the acquisition
> > of power and the $$$ it takes to do it.
> >
> >> The problem is not that you Libertarians don't align
> >> with the two parties.
> >
> > "You" Libertarians? Where did I ever claim to be such?
>
> tsk.. tsk.. I apologize for Kaufman.. <sigh> I've been
> talking to him about making a "libel" against all you
> Bushwores.. He just won't listen..

Yeah, he's a real jerk to you Bushwhores. He oughta stop that.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: The loan website is uploaded
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/7db052d26104a480?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 29 2007 11:48 am
From: scxrpvblor0xwupd3edli@googlemail.com

Hi,
The loan website has been uploaded to www.loans-website.com
thanks

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 29 2007 12:13 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

Logan Shaw <lshaw-usenet@austin.rr.com> wrote
> Too_Many_Tools wrote:

>> Here is an example of how marketing will try to manipulate you to buy.
>>
>> And when buying an used car overwhelmingly is a better deal in almost
>> all cases, the article chips away at that fact to push you into buying
>> new.
>
> I don't think the writer from The Motley Fool is a marketing person trying
> to get you to buy a new car rather than a used one. Instead, I think it's
> an article about the fact rules have exceptions. In this case, the rule
> that buying a late-model used car is a better deal than buying new is the
> rule with exceptions.
>
> And, as far as I can tell, it's a bona fide exception. In recent years,
> some hybrids have been just as expensive used as they have been new. In
> that case, buying used means getting an inferior product for the same price.
> Not a good deal, and definitely an exception to the rule.
>
> Of course, when used prices are the same as new, it does make things sound
> a little fishy, so what's going on? Well, personally, I think it's a matter
> of pricing quirks. Pricing is a complex thing. Think of supply and demand,
> but there are also a bunch of other variables, many of them psychological,
> that influence prices.

> The important thing in this case is that hybrid vehicles were an unexpected
> hit for the auto industry. They sold way more than they projected.

It was more that they produce much less profit per car for the manufacturers
and they chose to restrict the number they produced for that reason.

There's a reason that so few manufacturers even bother to produce them at all.

> So, what happens in the auto industry when a model is in much more demand than projected?

> Well, a couple of things. First, the auto industry works in such a way that
> the products (cars) almost always sell for less than the price on the sticker.
> There is some room for negotiation built in to the sticker price, and
> negotiating is the norm. Second, the auto industry is a pretty stable
> industry. Automakers stand to lose millions or billions if they introduce
> a model that's a flop, so they are pretty conservative with things. They
> usually have a pretty good idea in advance how well something is going to
> sell.
>
> So, in the auto industry, if a product is in strong demand, the automaker
> doesn't need to do all that much to adjust the sticker price. The leeway
> that's already built in for negotiating will generally take care of that;
> the dealers just get less flexible on how much they'll be talked down.
> And because prices are stable, not only do they not need to do much to
> the sticker price, but there is also not that much precedent for it.
> Automakers will adjust the sticker price by $500 or even $1000 sometimes
> during the course of a model-year, but not much more than that.
>
> The net result, I think, is that the demand went up but the prices stayed
> the same. And since the demand went up, the actual selling price rose.
> And since the demand went up spectacularly (by auto industry standards),
> the actual selling price rose to the point where it actually matched the
> sticker price. And when the sticker price is the actual selling price,
> you sell out of the cars. And if you're the auto industry, apparently
> you don't respond by raising the sticker price. You just let the cars
> get back-ordered. (And maybe you have reasons for doing this, like that
> the volume of orders is low and you stand to lose more in public relations
> than you gain in profits by raising the prices.)
>
> So what that amounts to is that the sticker price didn't budge (much?),
> and the prices on new hybrid cars became artificially low.
>
> But the same did not happen with used hybrid vehicles. The prices there
> weren't set by automakers but by individual used car lots. So they were
> free to set the price how they wanted. So the prices were not artificially
> low on used vehicles.
>
> So basically, the point is this: if prices are artificially low on new
> vehicles but aren't artificially low on used ones, then maybe it DOES make
> sense to buy a new vehicle.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 29 2007 12:19 pm
From: timeOday

It's not just hybrids that keep their value, either.
When I was looking at minivans, a 1-2 year old Honda or Toyota with up
to 25K miles cost virtually as much used as new.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Free Power Mall
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/bf38242ad18685ac?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 29 2007 12:32 pm
From: tate.fred@gmail.com

For a FREE Power Mall that is totally different.Turn up your speakers
and go to:http://www.mypowermall.com/biz/home/32027

==============================================================================
TOPIC: ONLINE SCIENCE AND MATH TEXTBOOKS
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/40c19701b5a5bf16?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 29 2007 12:52 pm
From: "AllEmailDeletedImmediately"

http://spot.colorado.edu/~dubin/bookmarks/b/1240.html

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Fortune tiring of bailouts
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/e68d266a9407e7d9?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 29 2007 12:57 pm
From: timeOday

"The reckless are getting relief from Bernanke while the prudent are
paying the price, argues Fortune's Allan Sloan."

I feel this is true. Our economic policy seems centered around
promoting inflation for stocks and housing, thus transferring wealth
from those who work to create it, into the pockets of those who "earn"
money by already having it.

<http://money.cnn.com/2007/09/28/news/economy/sloan_bernanke.fortune/index.htm?cnn=yes>

"If you look at the financial markets' overall reaction to the Fed move
- not at just the stock market's reaction - you realize that as a result
of the cut, those of us who keep score in dollars and didn't need to be
bailed out are less wealthy than we were in terms of anything other than
our home currency.

Why? Because the rate cut contributed heavily to the dollar's recent
sharp drop in the currency markets - parity with the Canadian dollar,
for God's sake! - and to the price spike in hard assets like gold,
silver, copper, and oil. So our wealth, relative to these other things,
has diminished.

And wait, there's more. Even though the Fed has cut short-term rates,
long-term rates, which it doesn't control, have risen in reaction to the
cut. So whatever economic benefits may flow from lower shortterm rates
will be partly offset by the rise in long rates, which are at least as
important to the economy as short rates.

Finally, consider this. Even though Bernanke's cut may mean that some
junk mortgages will reset at lower rates, the cost of large,
high-quality fixed-rate mortgages, which are tied to long rates, will be
higher than they'd otherwise be. (Yeah, penalize the people who are
prudent - way to go!)"

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 29 2007 1:45 pm
From: amsmith85@gmail.com

On Sep 29, 2:57 pm, timeOday <timeOday-UNS...@theknack.net> wrote:
> "The reckless are getting relief from Bernanke while the prudent are
> paying the price, argues Fortune's Allan Sloan."
>
> I feel this is true. Our economic policy seems centered around
> promoting inflation for stocks and housing, thus transferring wealth
> from those who work to create it, into the pockets of those who "earn"
> money by already having it.
>
> <http://money.cnn.com/2007/09/28/news/economy/sloan_bernanke.fortune/i...>
>
> "If you look at the financial markets' overall reaction to the Fed move
> - not at just the stock market's reaction - you realize that as a result
> of the cut, those of us who keep score in dollars and didn't need to be
> bailed out are less wealthy than we were in terms of anything other than
> our home currency.
>
> Why? Because the rate cut contributed heavily to the dollar's recent
> sharp drop in the currency markets - parity with the Canadian dollar,
> for God's sake! - and to the price spike in hard assets like gold,
> silver, copper, and oil. So our wealth, relative to these other things,
> has diminished.
>
> And wait, there's more. Even though the Fed has cut short-term rates,
> long-term rates, which it doesn't control, have risen in reaction to the
> cut. So whatever economic benefits may flow from lower shortterm rates
> will be partly offset by the rise in long rates, which are at least as
> important to the economy as short rates.
>
> Finally, consider this. Even though Bernanke's cut may mean that some
> junk mortgages will reset at lower rates, the cost of large,
> high-quality fixed-rate mortgages, which are tied to long rates, will be
> higher than they'd otherwise be. (Yeah, penalize the people who are
> prudent - way to go!)"

I hear ya, but I'm sure Bernanke took all of that into consideration
when making the rate cut. Even all of that being true, it's probably
better than the alternative which is recession and lots and lots and i
mean lots of extra houses. Lots of people are living above their
means in order to achieve some kind of "American Dream" scenario. In
reality, they are destroying it.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 29 2007 1:52 pm
From: "345ddd"

timeOday <timeOday-UNSPAM@theknack.net> wrote:

> "The reckless are getting relief from Bernanke while the
> prudent are paying the price, argues Fortune's Allan Sloan."

> I feel this is true.

Yes, but the alternative is to let the fools that were reckless
suffer the consequences of their recklessness and wear the
damage to the economy that that would produce in the process.

> Our economic policy seems centered around
> promoting inflation for stocks and housing,

Nope, the effect of the low interest rates is largely an
undesirable consequence, not a deliberately intended outcome.

> thus transferring wealth from those who work to create it, into
> the pockets of those who "earn" money by already having it.

Yes, but just as welfare rewards the improvident at a real cost
to those who make their own provision for their retirement, that
sort of result is essentially unavoidable and is basically the
inevitable result of interest rates being a very crude way to adjust
the economy. The problem is that there is no real alternative.

Its an approach which has ensured that we havent seen another
great depression in what is getting on for a full century now.
There were lots of them in the century before the last one.

> <http://money.cnn.com/2007/09/28/news/economy/sloan_bernanke.fortune/index.htm?cnn=yes>

> "If you look at the financial markets' overall reaction to the Fed
> move - not at just the stock market's reaction - you realize that
> as a result of the cut, those of us who keep score in dollars and
> didn't need to be bailed out are less wealthy than we were in
> terms of anything other than our home currency.

Sure, but if the economy had been allowed to collapse
instead, those would be much less wealthy again.

> Why? Because the rate cut contributed heavily to the
> dollar's recent sharp drop in the currency markets -

Something which doesnt have much real effect on the wealth of most.

> parity with the Canadian dollar, for God's sake! - and to the
> price spike in hard assets like gold, silver, copper, and oil.

Those arent mostly the result of the fed move, they are mostly
the result of it becoming clear that the economy wont collapse.

> So our wealth, relative to these other things, has diminished.

Which again isnt really that significant for most people.

The economy collapsing would have had a MUCH more dramatic effect.

> And wait, there's more. Even though the Fed has cut short-term rates,
> long-term rates, which it doesn't control, have risen in reaction to the cut.

Thats happened before too.

> So whatever economic benefits may flow from lower shortterm
> rates will be partly offset by the rise in long rates, which are at
> least as important to the economy as short rates.

Sure, but a collapse of the economy would have a much worse effect.

> Finally, consider this. Even though Bernanke's cut may mean
> that some junk mortgages will reset at lower rates, the cost
> of large, high-quality fixed-rate mortgages, which are tied to
> long rates, will be higher than they'd otherwise be.

Again, that only affects those with variable rates.

And if the economy was allowed to collapse, and they lose their jobs instead, that
would have a MUCH more dramatic effect on their personal financial circumstances.

> (Yeah, penalize the people who are prudent - way to go!)"

The problem is that there isnt any viable alternative.

What should have happened was that Greenspan should have seen the problem with
non prime mortage securitization and didnt until it was too late to do anything about it.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Bestellen Zigaretten
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/81fe2aa52b75f78d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 29 2007 1:46 pm
From: milis69@gmail.com

Bestellen Zigaretten

http://www.cigarettes--online.com/zigaretten.html

Bestellen Zigaretten - Willkommen zu Billige Zigaretten Bestellen
Cigarettes--online.com ist ein firma, das in die Europäische Union
Zigaretten und Tabak online verkauft. Es freut uns, Sie als Kunden
begrüßen zu dürfen und wir garantieren Ihnen, dass Sie zufrieden sein
werden mit unseren Produkten. Diese sind immer frisch und von
allerbester Qualität.

http://www.cigarettes--online.com/zigaretten.html

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Zigaretten Shop
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/c751c4b62cef985a?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 29 2007 1:52 pm
From: milis69@gmail.com

Zigaretten Shop

http://www.cigarettes--online.com/zigaretten.html

Zigaretten Shop - Willkommen zu Billige Zigaretten Bestellen
Cigarettes--online.com ist ein firma, das in die Europäische Union
Zigaretten und Tabak online verkauft. Es freut uns, Sie als Kunden
begrüßen zu dürfen und wir garantieren Ihnen, dass Sie zufrieden sein
werden mit unseren Produkten. Diese sind immer frisch und von
allerbester Qualität.

http://www.cigarettes--online.com/zigaretten.html

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 29 2007 2:00 pm
From: milis69@gmail.com

Aufgrund des günstigen Steuerklimasn, wo das firma seinen Sitz hat,
können Sie bei Zigaretten und Tabak viel Geld sparen. Alle
Bestellungen werden per Einschreiben nach Hause geliefert. Wir
garantieren Ihnen, dass Sie zufrieden sein werden mit unseren
Zigaretten. Diese sind immer frisch und von allerbester Qualität.

Es ist gesetzlich (Widerruf) Sie werden erlaubt, eine gewisse
Quantität oder gewisser Tabak online ebenso lang zu kaufen, als es hat
innerhalb der internationalen postalischen Regelungen Sie werden nicht
geladen werden für irgendeine Pflichtsteuer für Kaufen und Importieren
bis zu 8 Packe (160 Zigaretten) auf einmal an einigen Ländern
ausgeführt. Wenn Sie mehr als 160 Zigaretten anordnen, die Sie die
Packe in getrennten Päckchen empfangen werden.

Sie können alle bekannten Zigarettenmarken und Tabak wie Marlboro,
Camel, Lucky Strike, L&M, Pall Mall, Kent und mehr in unserem online
shop bestellen.

Alle bei unserem online shop angebotenen Produkte sind von der
höchsten erhältlichen Qualität. Sie entsprechen den Zigaretten, die
Sie bei Ihrem eigenen Tabakwarenhändler kaufen. Das werden Sie, sobald
Sie die erste Zigarette rauchen, feststellen.

Wir versprechen Ihnen, dass Sie keine tax free Zigaretten erhalten
werden, die älter als 30 Tage sind. Wenn Sie auf anderen Webseiten
billigere Zigaretten finden, kann es sein, dass diese mindestens 180
Tage alt sind und einen abgestandenen Geschmack haben. Bei
Billigezigaretten.de erhalten Sie stets tax free Zigaretten mit
maximaler Frische.

Sie können unbegrenzt Stangen zugleich bestellen. Diese werden, im
Hinblick auf die Gesetzgebung, einzeln verpackt und verschickt. Es
kann also vorkommen, dass Sie die Sendungen an verschiedenen Tagen
erhalten. Alle Bestellungen werden innerhalb von drei Arbeitstagen
verarbeitet. Die Versandzeit beträgt, in Abhängigkeit von der Distanz
und der nationalen Post, ungefähr 18 bis 30 tage.

Warum muss man wegen der höhen Preise mit dem Rauchen aufhören? Mit
uns können Sie 60% von den Zigarettenkosten sparen! Wir bieten Ihnen
die Möglichkeit, Ihnen täglich die Zollfreie Zigaretten zu schicken!
Man muss nicht jeden Tag ausgehen, um Zigaretten billig einkaufen. Sie
können sie bei uns bestellen, soweit es um Ihren persönlichen Gebrauch
geht. Die Zigaretten werden Ihnen ohne Risiken geliefert.

Das Mindestalter, von dieser Stelle billige zigaretten zu kaufen, ist
18 Jahre

http://www.cigarettes--online.com/zigaretten.html

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Free Nutro Dog and Cat Food
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/2ede957ba11ae496?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 29 2007 2:06 pm
From: "TheBestFreebies.com"

Get a coupon for a free 5 lb. bag of any Natural Choice Dog Food and a free 4
lb. bag of any Natural Choice Complete Care Cat Food. Plus a coupon for $1 off
and $3 off your next purchase. Allow 3-6 weeks for delivery. United States and
Canada residents only.

--
The Best Freebies
All freebies are available at http://TheBestFreebies.com

==============================================================================
TOPIC: loan website has been uploaded
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/a4c3408a0207fe05?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 29 2007 2:08 pm
From: n3hl7oyf

Hi, the website url is www.loans-website.com
thanks

441 google adsense websites only at www.louisneill.com

==============================================================================
TOPIC: :: ::
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/cdfa5bd109bec89c?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 29 2007 2:51 pm
From: "m.k.h666@gmail.com"

http://alluth.jeun.fr/

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Free Sample of New NutraSweet
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/4db6aeabddd9d4d4?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 29 2007 3:15 pm
From: "TheBestFreebies.com"

Swirl is the New Sweet! For a sample of the pure, delicious sweetness of the
New NutraSweet, fill out a simple survey. No calories, No unpleasant
aftertaste. Give it a Swirl!

--
The Best Freebies
All freebies are available at http://TheBestFreebies.com

==============================================================================
TOPIC: LEGITIMATE AND PAYPAL APPROVED
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/82fe395ea3984f28?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 29 2007 4:20 pm
From: wasylbrytan

PLEASE DISREGARD MY POSTING OF LEGITIMATE AND PAYPAL APPROVED. I WAS
DUPED INTO SENDING OUT BEFORE I FOUND OUT IT WAS NOT LEGITIMATE OR
LEGAL.

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 29 2007 4:23 pm
From: wasylbrytan

PLEASE DISREGARD MY POSTING OF LEGITIMATE AND PAYPAL APPROVED. I WAS
DUPED INTO SENDING OUT BEFORE I FOUND OUT IT WAS NOT LEGITIMATE OR
LEGAL.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 29 2007 4:24 pm
From: wasylbrytan

PLEASE DISREGARD MY POSTING OF LEGITIMATE AND PAYPAL APPROVED. I WAS
DUPED INTO SENDING OUT BEFORE I FOUND OUT IT WAS NOT LEGITIMATE OR
LEGAL.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Free Whiskas Kitten Care Pack (UK)
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/6bdaf9bb2a5a2f3a?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 29 2007 5:34 pm
From: "TheBestFreebies.com"

It's great having an adorable, inquisitive kitten running around amusing
himself (and you) with his antics. One day, he's going to grow into an
adorable, inquisitive and healthy cat, and we've put together a free WHISKAS
Kitten Care Pack to help him on his way.

So what's in it? WHISKAS Kitten Pouches, money-off coupons to get you started
and an indispensable guide to all things kitten - "Start Happy".

--
The Best Freebies
All freebies are available at http://TheBestFreebies.com

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Free Piano Sheet Music & Audio Files
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/897d814d4b331662?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 29 2007 6:31 pm
From: "TheBestFreebies.com"

Play familiar tunes arranged especially for beginners with our free piano
sheet music & MIDI audio files. No fees, no memberships, no passwords.

--
The Best Freebies
All freebies are available at http://TheBestFreebies.com

==============================================================================

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==============================================================================
Google Groups: http://groups.google.com?hl=en

25 new messages in 18 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Free 7-Day Supply of Coffee-Mate
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/e1459843c032723d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 29 2007 4:57 am
From: "TheBestFreebies.com"

Enhance your coffee-drinking experience. It won't cost you a dime. Sign up now
to receive a coupon for free Coffee-Mate (a $3.99 value) and discover for
yourself why Coffee-Mate is coffee's perfect mate.

--
The Best Freebies
All freebies are available at http://TheBestFreebies.com

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Free Arabic Bible Book
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/57d28dd0a3f59a49?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 29 2007 5:05 am
From: "TheBestFreebies.com"

Receive a free New Testament Arabic Bible Book. Allow 10-12 weeks for delivery.

--
The Best Freebies
All freebies are available at http://TheBestFreebies.com

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Free New Believer's Bible
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/a2b37c3e031fdd69?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 29 2007 5:14 am
From: "TheBestFreebies.com"

Receive a free copy of the New Believer's New Testament Bible in
easy-to-understand English with notes by Pastor Greg Laurie. You
will receive this, along with other materials, to help you grow
in your relationship with Christ. (NLT, Softcover)

--
The Best Freebies
All freebies are available at http://TheBestFreebies.com

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Disney Mobile calls it Quits
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/db605ad0907838b0?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 29 2007 5:46 am
From: zeez

On Sep 28, 10:45 am, Larry <no...@home.com> wrote:
> SMS <scharf.ste...@geemail.com> wrote innews:46fc7353$0$27199$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net:
>
> >http://www.thestreet.com/s/signal-fades-for-disney-mobile/newsanalysis/
> > techtelecom/10381822.html?puc=googlefi
>
> Of much greater interest from the webpage is the one on Vonage's demise:http://www.thestreet.com/s/vonages-vanishing-
> act/newsanalysis/techtelecom/10381531.html?
>
> They're TOAST! My condolences to Vonage users stuck with useless equipment
> once the company goes dark.
>

Which ultimately ends up in a land fill along with the toxic metals
and materials it contains :\

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 29 2007 6:00 am
From: BTR1701

In article <KykLi.884$6Y5.271@trnddc07>,
"Bill Walker" <bill.walker2@verizon.net> wrote:

> "William December Starr" <wdstarr@panix.com> wrote in message
> news:fdkhvn$mff$1@panix3.panix.com...
> > In article <VhcKi.3758$Wo4.906@trnddc03>,
> > "Bill Walker" <bill.walker2@verizon.net> said:
> >
> >> I have to admit to being sadly disappointed in this crop of
> >> Democrat leaders that are running our Party, though.. They are
> >> certainly not doing the job they were elected to do, last year..
> >
> > To a large extent they can't. These days you need _sixty_ votes in
> > the Senate to accomplish anything, not just fifty-one. And that's
> > just to _pass_ legislation -- if there's a veto then of course it
> > takes 2/3 of each house to override it.
>
> Leadership.. that's the clue.. When we've got genuine leadership
> instead of a bunch of apologists, we'll see some movement rather
> than hearing all the excuses coming out of Washington..
>
> When Pelosi publicly took impeachment off the table .. that was
> the first clue that Americans had been bamboozled, again..

LOL! You Bushwhore...

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 29 2007 6:51 am
From: tomcervo

On Sep 25, 9:02?pm, BTR1701 <btr1...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> Republican, Democrats, just two sides of the same tarnished coin.

Libertarian?
Tell me, do you do that with one hand or two?

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 29 2007 7:30 am
From: "Bill Walker"

"BTR1701" <btr1702@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:btr1702-7DCBFC.09000929092007@news.giganews.com...
> In article <KykLi.884$6Y5.271@trnddc07>,
> "Bill Walker" <bill.walker2@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> "William December Starr" <wdstarr@panix.com> wrote in message
>> news:fdkhvn$mff$1@panix3.panix.com...
>> > In article <VhcKi.3758$Wo4.906@trnddc03>,
>> > "Bill Walker" <bill.walker2@verizon.net> said:
>> >
>> >> I have to admit to being sadly disappointed in this crop of
>> >> Democrat leaders that are running our Party, though.. They are
>> >> certainly not doing the job they were elected to do, last year..
>> >
>> > To a large extent they can't. These days you need _sixty_ votes in
>> > the Senate to accomplish anything, not just fifty-one. And that's
>> > just to _pass_ legislation -- if there's a veto then of course it
>> > takes 2/3 of each house to override it.
>>
>> Leadership.. that's the clue.. When we've got genuine leadership
>> instead of a bunch of apologists, we'll see some movement rather
>> than hearing all the excuses coming out of Washington..
>>
>> When Pelosi publicly took impeachment off the table .. that was
>> the first clue that Americans had been bamboozled, again..
>
> LOL! You Bushwhore...

You must be very new around here.. <chuckle>

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 29 2007 11:24 am
From: Thanatos

In article <1191073907.471632.151430@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
tomcervo <tomcervo@aol.com> wrote:

> On Sep 25, 9:02?pm, BTR1701 <btr1...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

> > Republican, Democrats, just two sides of the same
> > tarnished coin.
>
> Libertarian?
> Tell me, do you do that with one hand or two?

Ah, so if one doesn't choose to align themselves with either of
big-money corrupt-a-thon political parties, they should be insulted and
denigrated?

Interesting...

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Cheap/free dining on your birthday
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/48b6d8a6b225456a?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 29 2007 6:43 am
From: FluorideFreeMN

Just having had a birthday a couple weeks ago, I hunted for some free
stuff around the net.

If you are already familiar with the site, I apologize (just found and
joined this group today).

Go to http://www.birthdayfreebies.com/ and enter your state. I didn't
pay as much attention to the search results as the sponsored links to
the right hand side of the page. It listed probably 12 different
restaurants and links to their various birthday clubs.

Needless to say, I enjoyed a DQ Blizzard, a Cold Stone Creamery
dessert, $10 off at Timberlodge, and some Red Lobster freebies as well.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: What (rodent?) did this???
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/6860ccc82111612e?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 29 2007 6:54 am
From: Gene S. Berkowitz

In article <1191035924.408023.10800@y42g2000hsy.googlegroups.com>,
condor_222@yahoo.com says...
> Hello,
>
> Recently I found something odd had happened to
> the anttraps in my finished basement. The traps
> were under the hot water radiator pipes.
>
>
> You can see some pictures I took here:
>
> http://www.geocities.com/condor_222/anttrap/
>
> http://www.geocities.com/condor_222/anttrap/dsc_2289.jpg
> http://www.geocities.com/condor_222/anttrap/dsc_2290.jpg
> http://www.geocities.com/condor_222/anttrap/dsc_2291.jpg
> http://www.geocities.com/condor_222/anttrap/dsc_2292.jpg
> - as I found them
>
>
> http://www.geocities.com/condor_222/anttrap/dsc_2293.jpg
> http://www.geocities.com/condor_222/anttrap/dsc_2294.jpg
> - One corner was chewed out on each of the traps
>
>
> http://www.geocities.com/condor_222/anttrap/dsc_2296.jpg
> - there were lots of pieces of plastic remaining.
> - note the size and round shape.
>
>
> I thought this was really odd. What would be going for
> an ant trap? What would chew out the corners, and leave
> pieces the shape of crescent moons? A snake?
>
>
> Any ideas??

Mice. Ant traps typically use sugar as bait mixed with boric acid or
something nastier. Like all rodents, mice need to chew to keep their
incisors from getting too long.

--Gene

==============================================================================
TOPIC: An Allentown house
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/9a111237f5724e25?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 29 2007 7:04 am
From: nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu

>The radiator and its fans could be at the top of a vertical duct that
>returns sunspace air to the lower sunspace without mixing with room air.
>On cloudy days, pump water up through the radiator to warm the house...

Air might flow as below, with no room air fan, just the 2 radiator fans
in series and an upper motorized sdamper, hinged at the bottom, with
a windshield wiper motor with limit switches that opens inwards up to 90
degrees (moving counterclockwise) to block room airflow in the horizontal
position, like this, viewed in a fixed font:

top 2' top
---------------------------- -----------
| r motor s. | | |
| a <--> d. | | |
| fd a. | | |
| <== ai <== m. 2' | | sdamper | 2'
| na p. | | |
| st e. | | |
| o 2' r. s | | (sdamper) |
| r-........-| u | |-----------|
| | ^ | n | s | ^ | cool
| | | | s | o | | | room
| | cool room| p | u 20' | --- | air east
| | air inlet| a | t | | inlet
| ----------| c | h |-----------|
| | e | | |
| | | | |
. .s | | |
. sunspace .d | | |
. air .a ^ | | |
.<== warm room ==> .m | | | sdamper |
. air outlet .p | | | |
. .e | | |
. .r | | |
---------------------------- -----------

cool room 12'
air inlet
| Drawing not to scale.
v
----------------------------
| r top s|s |
| fa view d|d |
| d a|a |
| <== ai <== m|m 4' | 12' south
| a p|p |
| nt e|e |
| o r|r |
----------r------------------
west
Modes:

1. To heat the tank, pull sunspace air through the radiator with its fans
and return it to the sunspace below, with the motorized sdamper horizontal
and Grainger's 4PC93 pump on if the tank is less than 140 F and the sunspace
is warmer than the tank. A lower one-way lightweight vertical plastic film
convection sdamper opens over a hardware cloth grate when the fan runs and
prevents reverse sunspace thermosyphoning at night.

2. To heat the house, pull room air through the radiator and back into
the room via the lower room air grate, with the upper sdamper horizontal
and the pump off if the sunspace is warmer than the room, and the upper
sdamper vertical and the pump on if the sunspace is colder.

3. To do both, alternate modes 1 and 2, moving the damper slowly, with
full action in about 5 minutes at a 1% PWM duty cycle. At full speed,
our '97 Ford Taurus wiper motor opened a 1' damper with a 3" pulley in
about 3 seconds. We put a 10 ohm resistor in series to reduce coasting.

house tank sunspace
<70? <140? >70? >tank? | damper fans pump notes
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
0 0 - - | up off off default
0 1 1 1 | down on on heat tank
1 0 0 - | up on on heat house with tank
1 0 1 - | down on off heat house with sunspace
1 1 1 1 | down on on heat house and tank

The room air temp might be 70 F during the day and 60 at night, with
a setback thermostat. The damper motor circuit might look like this,
with the damper normally down:

+12 --------------------------------------
| |
- opens when up, - opens when down,
| to limit travel | to limit travel
| |
| |
x close to raise - open to raise
| |
| lower |
| <------ |
| ----- |
|--------------|motor|-------------|
| ----- |
| |
| |
- open to raise x close to raise
| |
| |
| |
|--------------------------------------
--
The damper might look like this, in a fixed font: / \
/|motor&|
/ |pulley|
/ \ /
/ | -- |
-----------------------------------------------------------------
| . / |
| . / o|
| . / \
| . / |-
| r . / |s| upper limit
| . / f| | roller leaf
F | . / e|s| switch
| a . / l|-
| . / t|
| . / |
| d . / (up) |
| . <== / | <-- sunspace
A | . / | air
| i . / |
| . / | ~2'
| . / h |
| a . / i |
| . / n |
N | . / g |
| t . | (down) strape |
| . ---------------------------------------- |
| .| 1/2" plywood | |
| o .|----------------------------------------| |
| .| | |
S | .| 2" foil-polyiso board | |
| r .| | |
| .|----------------------------------------| |
| .| 1/2" plywood | |
| . ---------------------------------------- |
| . |
| . ~~~~~~~~~~~felt weatherstripping~o~~~~~~~~|
---------------------------------------\---------------------
^ |s s|
| ---- lower limit
room air roller leaf switch
Nick

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Loan website has been uploaded
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/c33a5f7f21b9a501?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 29 2007 7:09 am
From: e922nmwt

hi al,
the loan website has been uploaded to www.loans-website.com
thanks
Louis

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 29 2007 7:48 am
From: ejn14ls6

hi al,
the loan website has been uploaded to www.loans-website.com
thanks
Louis

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Free Pantene PRO-V Color Expressions Shampoo Sample!
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/e19750c5b3575215?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 29 2007 7:39 am
From: eHDMI

Free Pantene PRO-V Color Expressions Shampoo Sample!

Pantene is by far my favorite shampoo! Now you can get a Free Sample!
http://www.FreebiesPl.us/?p=108

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 29 2007 8:36 am
From: Too_Many_Tools

Here is an example of how marketing will try to manipulate you to buy.

And when buying an used car overwhelmingly is a better deal in almost
all cases, the article chips away at that fact to push you into buying
new.

TMT

Motley Fool
When a New Car Beats a Used Car
Tuesday August 7, 10:10 am ET

By Mary Dalrymple

You've probably heard the maxim of car-buying, which warns you that a
new vehicle will lose 20% to 30% of its value the moment it's driven
off the dealer's lot. Beware the heady and intoxicating perfume of new
car smell, all ye car-crazy Fools. You'll end up with a sorry hangover
dragging down your bank account.
Well, rules were meant to be broken, right? Even this rule of car
depreciation doesn't always hold true when you look more closely at
reality. Both buyers and sellers need to get specific about vehicle
depreciation. Let's start with buyers.

A guaranteed money-loser
All car buyers should first remember that a car isn't an investment.
It won't appreciate in value and leave a Fool richer than when he or
she started. That's why personal finance columnists, myself included,
often equate new vehicles and car loans with moldy old cheese. They
stink.

Even though cars, trucks, and monster SUVs tend to lose a lot of value
during their first few years, some lose that value faster than others.
In fact, a few hardly lose much value at all. If you've tried shopping
for a hybrid, or an especially trendy car, you've probably found out
that a used car won't be the bargain you had hoped.

As an experiment, I took a look at some typical cars from
DaimlerChrysler (NYSE: DCX - News), Toyota (NYSE: TM - News), and
Honda (NYSE: HMC - News) to see how prices fell as you go back several
model years. I used the Kelley Blue Book, but there are plenty of
other resources you can use, including the Edmunds website, Internet
sites like eBay Motors or Cars.com, or even just patrolling local used
car lots and private-party ads to get a better feel for the market in
your neighborhood.

What's hot, what's not
The first vehicle I looked at was a kid-friendly Dodge Grand Caravan.
The price of a 2008 model starts at $22,470, according to the
company's website. Kelley Blue Book says I can find a 2006 Grand
Caravan in excellent condition with standard features selling for
about $16,345 at my local used car dealership.

While I'm sure a 2008 will have some extra bells and whistles that
won't appear on the 2006 used car, the comparison suggests I can save
over $6,000 just by buying a slightly used minivan.

Not so, however, if you're looking for something, say, smaller and
greener. You won't find such bargains when shopping for a Toyota Prius
or a Honda Civic Hybrid. A new Prius starts at $22,175. A 2006 Prius
in excellent condition, according to Kelley Blue Book, might carry a
retail value of $22,570.

Yep, you read that correctly. The used hybrid retails for just as much
as a new one. That's a major drawback of shopping for a scarce or a
popular car. You just won't find the same bargains by shopping used.

The fuzzy math of taxes
Let's make the math even trickier. What happens when you factor in
other things, like the hybrid car tax credit? That can knock a sizable
chunk of change off the purchase of certain new hybrids, but it's not
available for used cars. Or, what if you get special financing for a
new car, which narrows the cost gap between a new and a slightly used
one?

These factors may make it worth your time and money to consider buying
new. For the same price, or just a tiny bit more, you'll get a brand-
new vehicle with all the bells and whistles you want. Or, it may be
time to reconsider whether you need that trendy Mini Cooper after all.

Buyers aren't the only ones who should ponder the nature of
depreciation. Sellers should take a moment for reflection, too.

Fool contributor Mary Dalrymple does not own stock in any company
mentioned in this article. She welcomes your feedback. The Motley Fool
disclosure policy drives a convertible.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 29 2007 10:40 am
From: Logan Shaw

Too_Many_Tools wrote:
> Here is an example of how marketing will try to manipulate you to buy.
>
> And when buying an used car overwhelmingly is a better deal in almost
> all cases, the article chips away at that fact to push you into buying
> new.

I don't think the writer from The Motley Fool is a marketing person trying
to get you to buy a new car rather than a used one. Instead, I think it's
an article about the fact rules have exceptions. In this case, the rule
that buying a late-model used car is a better deal than buying new is the
rule with exceptions.

And, as far as I can tell, it's a bona fide exception. In recent years,
some hybrids have been just as expensive used as they have been new. In
that case, buying used means getting an inferior product for the same price.
Not a good deal, and definitely an exception to the rule.

Of course, when used prices are the same as new, it does make things sound
a little fishy, so what's going on? Well, personally, I think it's a matter
of pricing quirks. Pricing is a complex thing. Think of supply and demand,
but there are also a bunch of other variables, many of them psychological,
that influence prices.

The important thing in this case is that hybrid vehicles were an unexpected
hit for the auto industry. They sold way more than they projected. So, what
happens in the auto industry when a model is in much more demand than projected?

Well, a couple of things. First, the auto industry works in such a way that
the products (cars) almost always sell for less than the price on the sticker.
There is some room for negotiation built in to the sticker price, and
negotiating is the norm. Second, the auto industry is a pretty stable
industry. Automakers stand to lose millions or billions if they introduce
a model that's a flop, so they are pretty conservative with things. They
usually have a pretty good idea in advance how well something is going to
sell.

So, in the auto industry, if a product is in strong demand, the automaker
doesn't need to do all that much to adjust the sticker price. The leeway
that's already built in for negotiating will generally take care of that;
the dealers just get less flexible on how much they'll be talked down.
And because prices are stable, not only do they not need to do much to
the sticker price, but there is also not that much precedent for it.
Automakers will adjust the sticker price by $500 or even $1000 sometimes
during the course of a model-year, but not much more than that.

The net result, I think, is that the demand went up but the prices stayed
the same. And since the demand went up, the actual selling price rose.
And since the demand went up spectacularly (by auto industry standards),
the actual selling price rose to the point where it actually matched the
sticker price. And when the sticker price is the actual selling price,
you sell out of the cars. And if you're the auto industry, apparently
you don't respond by raising the sticker price. You just let the cars
get back-ordered. (And maybe you have reasons for doing this, like that
the volume of orders is low and you stand to lose more in public relations
than you gain in profits by raising the prices.)

So what that amounts to is that the sticker price didn't budge (much?),
and the prices on new hybrid cars became artificially low.

But the same did not happen with used hybrid vehicles. The prices there
weren't set by automakers but by individual used car lots. So they were
free to set the price how they wanted. So the prices were not artificially
low on used vehicles.

So basically, the point is this: if prices are artificially low on new
vehicles but aren't artificially low on used ones, then maybe it DOES make
sense to buy a new vehicle.

- Logan

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Steps to Stop ID Theft
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/65de15d8749bb944?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 29 2007 9:08 am
From: Joe

If you think your identity has been stolen, take these steps ASAP:

__ Contact the fraud departments of any one of the three major credit
bureaus to place a fraud alert on your credit file. The fraud alert
requests creditors to contact you before opening any new accounts or
making any changes to your existing accounts. (As soon as the credit
bureau confirms your fraud alert, the other two credit bureaus will be
automatically notified to place fraud alerts.)

To read all these steps, please go to or click on:
http://www.contactomagazine.com/articles/stopidtheft0907.htm

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 29 2007 9:52 am
From: aice

my blog

very good
http://www.5dx.net

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Free Virtual Hairstyles
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/22eb14ca3d6a82b9?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 29 2007 9:43 am
From: "TheBestFreebies.com"

Get a free Virtual Hairstyle. Just upload your photograph, choose a hair style,
print the picture for your hairdresser, or e-mail your new look to a friend.
Dozens of celebrity haircuts!

--
The Best Freebies
All freebies are available at http://TheBestFreebies.com

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 29 2007 9:52 am
From: aice

my blog

very good
http://www.5dx.net

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Are you Waiting for Google Smart Phone
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/6d56456586631245?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 29 2007 9:53 am
From: aice

my blog

very good
http://www.5dx.net

==============================================================================
TOPIC: FREE HEALTH CARE QUOTE
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/4215d497b4a967ce?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 29 2007 9:55 am
From: DevBasic Marketing Support

We are affiliated with a network of participating insurance
professionals
across the United States. With health care costs going up, you need
to
find cheap medical insurance.

Once you have completed our online form, our system instantly finds
partners who will provide you with the best coverage at best rates.
Get the information you need to make good decisions today.

http://www.illinois.devbasic.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=38&Itemid=46

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Regaining lost money per cutting back?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/ca7f020e84a4c00b?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 29 2007 10:17 am
From: difdrummer@webtv.net (Bob Young)

Rick wrote:

"Yeah - that's called "spaving" - spending on deals, markdowns, sales,
closeouts etc. thinking you save money in the process. The trap in
thinking that way is you end up fearing that "X" won't ever be seen for
such a good price again. And you end up buying way too much of "X" just
because it's at a sales price.

One obvious and easy reality check you can do is start marking the
month/year you buy your grocery items on the package. And then see how
long you have that item before you finally use it up. Some things turn
over real fast. But if you find two years later that you still have cans
of tomato products or canned soups in your pantry you marked "03/2005"
it's gonna cause you to think about how much of what you are buying that
you don't end up using in a reasonable time frame.

Adjust your purchasing accordingly. If you keep buying bargain after
bargain just because it's a good price, and the stuff just sits there
beyond expiration dates, you are wasting money buying bargains, not
saving it."
-------------------------
__________________
Thanks Rick. I think you're the only one that understood my situation
and gave me the proper diagnoses: "spaving". I think I am back in
remission now.

I was not in a financial emergency , but mad at myself for the
'spaving'. I did not see the extent of it til about a month later. It
is so easy to fall into...."2 for the price of one", "buy one, get one
FREE." "Rebate if you tear this coupon off" etc. Garage sales, resale
shops etc.

I sort of see it as part of the emotional adjustment period of
being retired only 2 years. I have a working budget and I have an
income that covers that budget and I often save money on my electric
bill certain months and groceries.

But I was spending money like I had a job. And Gawd knows I
would rather starve to death than to go back to work. Not to blame
anyone else, but I had a buddy who was showing me how to save money here
and there. We spent the morning running here and there. Well it all
looked great at the time, but it came back to bite me in the ass later.

I am grateful for what I do have and am happy being retired and I
have always lived a simple life style, so it wasn't like I wanted to
keep up with the Jones. But I have to always keep my 'actual' income
in mind. I created my monthly budget for my Edward Jones folks and they
helped me supplement it with two federal bonds, who pay me so much per
month, so my budget is realistic.

I think part of it was the fun of running around with a friend
too and it seemed so 'harmless' til my chronic flare of 'spaving' hit
me. :)

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 29 2007 10:51 am
From: szl5f9v7z4xu8yxeoyd1@gmail.com

Hi, the url is www.loans-website.com
thanks
louis

==============================================================================
TOPIC: accept paypal [c h e a p e s t s e l l ] the web url had been change

www.cheapest-sell.net or.com and .cn,please chose the web which you like( our
company wholesales jordan shoes,air max,AF1,bape hoodie,gucci,parada,lv,evisu)
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/b58b75bc6902142f?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 29 2007 11:26 am
From: cheapestsell

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5.Shoes/Shoes/Shoes/rift/Sports shoes
6.fashion branded hoodies/jeans/caps/handbag/t-shirts and
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