Frugal Living: Nov 27, 2007

Tuesday, November 27, 2007

25 new messages in 9 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Frugal XP
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/46f7727bbba8a63a?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Tues, Nov 27 2007 10:29 am
From: Dennis

On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 17:04:31 -0800 (PST), sarge137
<rbooth9858@yahoo.com> wrote:

>The way it was explained to me is that licenses can be transferred to
>another machine, so long as the original machine is taken out of
>service. That's all part of the validation program that's required to
>get updates - it compares hardware profiles to activated licenses. If
>it's been over 180 days since the original installation was activated,
>you can reactivate online. If it's less time than that you have to
>call a 800 number where they'll ask if the os has been removed from
>the old computer before they give you an activation code. Of course
>if the old machine reaches out to Microsoft for any reason it'll be
>deactivated in favor of the newer installation. I guess it would be
>possible to use two or more machines on one license so long as only
>one is connected to the Internet, but what's the point?

My understanding was that is true for retail licenses, but not OEMs.
OEM licenses are meant for integrators who put together hardware and
software and resell it as a package. For example, if you buy a PC
from Dell or HP with a copy of Windows installed on it, it comes with
an OEM license. I thought the OEM licenses came with the restriction
that the SW cannot be moved to another PC . Perhaps I was wrong.

Dennis (evil)
--
I'm a hands-on, footloose, knee-jerk head case. -George Carlin

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Tues, Nov 27 2007 12:34 pm
From: sarge137

On Nov 27, 11:29 am, Dennis <dg...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 17:04:31 -0800 (PST), sarge137
>
> <rbooth9...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >The way it was explained to me is that licenses can be transferred to
> >another machine, so long as the original machine is taken out of
> >service. That's all part of the validation program that's required to
> >get updates - it compares hardware profiles to activated licenses. If
> >it's been over 180 days since the original installation was activated,
> >you can reactivate online. If it's less time than that you have to
> >call a 800 number where they'll ask if the os has been removed from
> >the old computer before they give you an activation code. Of course
> >if the old machine reaches out to Microsoft for any reason it'll be
> >deactivated in favor of the newer installation. I guess it would be
> >possible to use two or more machines on one license so long as only
> >one is connected to the Internet, but what's the point?
>
> My understanding was that is true for retail licenses, but not OEMs.
> OEM licenses are meant for integrators who put together hardware and
> software and resell it as a package. For example, if you buy a PC
> from Dell or HP with a copy of Windows installed on it, it comes with
> an OEM license. I thought the OEM licenses came with the restriction
> that the SW cannot be moved to another PC . Perhaps I was wrong.
>
> Dennis (evil)
> --
> I'm a hands-on, footloose, knee-jerk head case. -George Carlin

Good point, Dennis.

No, you aren't wrong. That was/is Microsoft's intent with OEM
licenses. The language in the license of the OEM copy I have says
it's to be distributed with hardware. A rather broad and nonspecific
requirement, that left a loop hole open. My copy came with a small
chip of unknown origin and no value whatsoever. Technically it was
"hardware".

The source I bought from was openly doing so on eBay for several
months before I bought mine, and still is (or was as recently as two
months ago). He even explained the disc would come with that chip to
fulfill the hardware condition of the license. If they cared, I'm
sure they would have shut him down in short order. I suspect
Microsoft isn't thrilled with this practice, but so long as they're
selling legitimate licenses they're still making plenty of money on
them. They could fix it easily enough by simply rewriting the license
to limit distribution to fully functional computers rather than just
"hardware". They'd probably rather spend their time keeping hackers
from using the same copy on multiple computers.

Another aspect of OEM software is that the publisher has no after
market support responsibility If I had needed some sort of tech
support they'd have told me get in touch with the people who sold it
to me. If one is the type who needs tech support to get software
installed, configured and kept running, OEM is certainly not the way
to go.

Regards,
Sarge

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Tues, Nov 27 2007 12:48 pm
From: sarge137

On Nov 27, 1:34 pm, sarge137 <rbooth9...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Nov 27, 11:29 am, Dennis <dg...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 17:04:31 -0800 (PST), sarge137
>
> > <rbooth9...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >The way it was explained to me is that licenses can be transferred to
> > >another machine, so long as the original machine is taken out of
> > >service. That's all part of the validation program that's required to
> > >get updates - it compares hardware profiles to activated licenses. If
> > >it's been over 180 days since the original installation was activated,
> > >you can reactivate online. If it's less time than that you have to
> > >call a 800 number where they'll ask if the os has been removed from
> > >the old computer before they give you an activation code. Of course
> > >if the old machine reaches out to Microsoft for any reason it'll be
> > >deactivated in favor of the newer installation. I guess it would be
> > >possible to use two or more machines on one license so long as only
> > >one is connected to the Internet, but what's the point?
>
> > My understanding was that is true for retail licenses, but not OEMs.
> > OEM licenses are meant for integrators who put together hardware and
> > software and resell it as a package. For example, if you buy a PC
> > from Dell or HP with a copy of Windows installed on it, it comes with
> > an OEM license. I thought the OEM licenses came with the restriction
> > that the SW cannot be moved to another PC . Perhaps I was wrong.
>
> > Dennis (evil)
> > --
> > I'm a hands-on, footloose, knee-jerk head case. -George Carlin
>
> Good point, Dennis.
>
> No, you aren't wrong. That was/is Microsoft's intent with OEM
> licenses. The language in the license of the OEM copy I have says
> it's to be distributed with hardware. A rather broad and nonspecific
> requirement, that left a loop hole open. My copy came with a small
> chip of unknown origin and no value whatsoever. Technically it was
> "hardware".
>
> The source I bought from was openly doing so on eBay for several
> months before I bought mine, and still is (or was as recently as two
> months ago). He even explained the disc would come with that chip to
> fulfill the hardware condition of the license. If they cared, I'm
> sure they would have shut him down in short order. I suspect
> Microsoft isn't thrilled with this practice, but so long as they're
> selling legitimate licenses they're still making plenty of money on
> them. They could fix it easily enough by simply rewriting the license
> to limit distribution to fully functional computers rather than just
> "hardware". They'd probably rather spend their time keeping hackers
> from using the same copy on multiple computers.
>
> Another aspect of OEM software is that the publisher has no after
> market support responsibility If I had needed some sort of tech
> support they'd have told me get in touch with the people who sold it
> to me. If one is the type who needs tech support to get software
> installed, configured and kept running, OEM is certainly not the way
> to go.
>
> Regards,
> Sarge- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

P.S.

Never had any problems from Microsoft in transferring OEM Windows
licenses to newly built, or subtantially rebuilt computers so long as
the old one is out of service. Don't know about brand name desktops
as I haven't owned one of those since early Windows 95 days. I think
they mainly come with recovery discs which don't work on anything but
the hardware they were shipped with.

Regards again,
Sarge

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Tues, Nov 27 2007 2:24 pm
From: Dennis

On Tue, 27 Nov 2007 12:48:21 -0800 (PST), sarge137
<rbooth9858@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Never had any problems from Microsoft in transferring OEM Windows
>licenses to newly built, or subtantially rebuilt computers so long as
>the old one is out of service.

Good to know. I like to keep legal (my paycheck comes from software
too), but sometimes following the licenses to the letter seems too
restrictive for normal legitimate use.

>Don't know about brand name desktops
>as I haven't owned one of those since early Windows 95 days. I think
>they mainly come with recovery discs which don't work on anything but
>the hardware they were shipped with.

I once used the Windows XP OS disk that came with a Dell PC to install
on another (model, year) Dell PC when I misplaced the disk that
originally came with the second PC. Worked fine with no complaints.
It would not install on another non-Dell PC, however (I was curious
:-).

Dennis (evil)
--
I'm behind the eight ball, ahead of the curve, riding the wave,
dodging the bullet and pushing the envelope. -George Carlin

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Space heaters?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/f26d977f5b136ec1?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Nov 27 2007 10:31 am
From: "Don K"

"Jeff" <dont_bug_me@all.uk> wrote in message news:13kole9r3bb3eaf@corp.supernews.com...
>
> The radiator type are the safest. The heat is the most comfortable.

Comfortable? Not for me.

My in-laws had one of those quartz radiant heaters and I remember
I'd be warm on one side and cold on the other. Maybe you can be
comfortable if you sit on a rotating chair or spit so it can heat evenly.

> And any radiant heater will be superior if it is drafty as it heats the contents rather
> than the air which in a drafty room is on the way out!

I disagree.

I've got a big old boxy-type heater from Montgomery Wards that is a
combination of radiant and forced air heat. The thermostat works
fine. Unlike teeny-tiny heaters, its fan isn't noisy. It warms both the
room and the air in it. IMO the warm air is essential to comfort.

> If you need quicker heat (or a small heater), as in a bathroom, then the ceramic
> heaters (in a ground fault receptical}. I like my Titans. Ceramics don't have exposed
> hot wires. You have to be more carefull though than a radiator.
>
> Put any other kind of fan forced heater off your list.

I have no axe to grind, but I'd say use your own common sense
and prefenences when evaluating the pros and cons of various heaters..

Don

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Nov 27 2007 11:22 am
From: Jeff

Don K wrote:

> "Jeff" <dont_bug_me@all.uk> wrote in message news:13kole9r3bb3eaf@corp.supernews.com...
>
>> The radiator type are the safest. The heat is the most comfortable.
>
>
> Comfortable? Not for me.
>
> My in-laws had one of those quartz radiant heaters and I remember
> I'd be warm on one side and cold on the other.

And if you were outside with that then at least half of yourself would
be warm.

But no one is recommending a quartz tube heater. The radiant area is
too small and the temperature is too high. You need surface area. Note
"radiator", not "radiant".

Ever been in a room with radiant floor heating? The radiators are as
close to that as you can get with a space heater.

Maybe you can be
> comfortable if you sit on a rotating chair or spit so it can heat evenly.
>
>
>> And any radiant heater will be superior if it is drafty as it heats the contents rather
>>than the air which in a drafty room is on the way out!
>
>
> I disagree.
>
> I've got a big old boxy-type heater from Montgomery Wards that is a
> combination of radiant and forced air heat. The thermostat works
> fine. Unlike teeny-tiny heaters, its fan isn't noisy. It warms both the
> room and the air in it. IMO the warm air is essential to comfort.

Most people prefer a stratified heat where it cools slightly as you rise
from floor to ceiling. Warm feet, cool head. Fan forced heaters tend to
be much warmer on top. Even my radiators yield a slight warming from
bottom to top, but it is not as severe.

>
>
>> If you need quicker heat (or a small heater), as in a bathroom, then the ceramic
>>heaters (in a ground fault receptical}. I like my Titans. Ceramics don't have exposed
>>hot wires. You have to be more carefull though than a radiator.
>>
>> Put any other kind of fan forced heater off your list.
>
>
> I have no axe to grind, but I'd say use your own common sense
> and prefenences when evaluating the pros and cons of various heaters..

Most people don't know, which is why asking is good as it gives you a
little background to go on. And in a bedroom situation, saftey should
rise to the top of your list. Kids, pets and spouses do unpredictable
things.

I agree with you about quartz tube heaters, BTW.

Jeff
>
> Don
>
>

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Mad at my fridge
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/c77ad846603c825a?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Tues, Nov 27 2007 10:43 am
From: Dennis

On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 17:53:00 -0700, timeOday
<timeOday-UNSPAM@theknack.net> wrote:

>My Kenmore fridge just broke, it was only 5 years old. There goes $800.
>
>It fell to a broken compressor, which apparently is the #1 cause of
>fridge death. Why don't they make it easier to replace the compressor?
> Shouldn't be that much harder than replacing the power steering pump on
>my car, should it? But apparently it is, everybody says just throw it out.

I had a similar experience with my KitchenAid refrigerator -- the
compressor failed just outside of the full coverage period of the
warranty. The KitchenAid came with a longer parts-only warranty, but
warranty repair required a "factory authorized" repair shop. The
quote for the in-warranty repair from the authorized shop and the
non-warranty repair from the local guy were both right around US$450.
I went for the repair rather than replacing the whole refrigerator
(which we were otherwise happy enough with). Maybe that will turn out
to be a mistake -- time will tell.

BTW, replacing the compressor is fairly involved. They have to purge
(and properly contain and dispose of) the old refrigerant, replace the
compressor, including cutting and replumbing the lines without leaks,
and recharge the refrigerant.

Dennis (evil)
--
My output is down, my income is up, I take a short position on the long bond and
my revenue stream has its own cash flow. -George Carlin

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Tues, Nov 27 2007 2:14 pm
From: timeOday

Jeff wrote:
>> I would pay a couple hundred extra for something with a
>> 10 year warranty though.
>
> How will you know?

How would I know if it came with a 10 year warranty?

> And in the case of Sears, people with warranties
> still had to pay substantial labor costs.

I hadn't thought of that; sounds like the "parts only" portion of the
warranty should be ignored.

> It sounds like your plan is to
> spend even more money. I'd try to get over being pissed off and do
> something frugal, since this is what this group is about.

The only money I'm spending is:
1) paid a repairman $50 to read the old fridge its last rites (I debated
this, but it was still partially working - only about 7 degrees too hot
for several days - so I thought it might be fixed).

2) Buy a new fridge. It's no better than the old one, but figure $750 +
tax + delivery, and you're easily over $800.

3) Replace all the ruined food. (I was going to eat all those frozen
leftovers any day now, honest).

What could I avoid? I checked craigslist for used options, but the only
people selling decent fridges were overcharging by far.

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Tues, Nov 27 2007 4:39 pm
From: Dennis

On Tue, 27 Nov 2007 15:14:44 -0700, timeOday
<timeOday-UNSPAM@theknack.net> wrote:

>Jeff wrote:
>>> I would pay a couple hundred extra for something with a
>>> 10 year warranty though.
>>
>> How will you know?
>
>How would I know if it came with a 10 year warranty?
>
>> And in the case of Sears, people with warranties
>> still had to pay substantial labor costs.
>
>I hadn't thought of that; sounds like the "parts only" portion of the
>warranty should be ignored.
>
>> It sounds like your plan is to
>> spend even more money. I'd try to get over being pissed off and do
>> something frugal, since this is what this group is about.
>
>The only money I'm spending is:
>1) paid a repairman $50 to read the old fridge its last rites (I debated
>this, but it was still partially working - only about 7 degrees too hot
>for several days - so I thought it might be fixed).
>
>2) Buy a new fridge. It's no better than the old one, but figure $750 +
>tax + delivery, and you're easily over $800.
>
>3) Replace all the ruined food. (I was going to eat all those frozen
>leftovers any day now, honest).
>
>What could I avoid? I checked craigslist for used options, but the only
>people selling decent fridges were overcharging by far.

Did you get a quote for replacing the compressor?
Dennis (evil)
--
The honest man is the one who realizes that he cannot
consume more, in his lifetime, than he produces.

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Tues, Nov 27 2007 6:03 pm
From: Jeff

timeOday wrote:

> Jeff wrote:
>
>>> I would pay a couple hundred extra for something with a
>>>10 year warranty though.
>>
>> How will you know?
>
>
> How would I know if it came with a 10 year warranty?
>
>
>>And in the case of Sears, people with warranties
>>still had to pay substantial labor costs.
>
>
> I hadn't thought of that; sounds like the "parts only" portion of the
> warranty should be ignored.
>
>
>>It sounds like your plan is to
>>spend even more money. I'd try to get over being pissed off and do
>>something frugal, since this is what this group is about.
>
>
> The only money I'm spending is:
> 1) paid a repairman $50 to read the old fridge its last rites (I debated
> this, but it was still partially working - only about 7 degrees too hot
> for several days - so I thought it might be fixed).

That surprises me, compressors tend to either leak or just not run or
run way too hot. Partially running is odd unless the valves went bad.
There's lots of other things that can go wrong with a fridge that keep
it from cooling correctly.
>
> 2) Buy a new fridge. It's no better than the old one, but figure $750 +
> tax + delivery, and you're easily over $800.
>
> 3) Replace all the ruined food. (I was going to eat all those frozen
> leftovers any day now, honest).
>
> What could I avoid? I checked craigslist for used options, but the only
> people selling decent fridges were overcharging by far.

Check the local paper or even a used appliance store. Refrigerators tend
to get left behind during moves and breakups.

You might also google your model number and see what is said about
your model. It may be that an after market compressor could have put you
back on the road to cool.

Jeff

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Coinstar Warning
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/0a78df299577cc2f?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Nov 27 2007 11:53 am
From: val189

On Nov 25, 3:50 pm, sarge137 <rbooth9...@yahoo.com> wrote:

I think next time I'll waste an hour or
> so of my time and count them before I go. I don't think they'd
> deliberately cheat me, but are these machines ever calibrated? A
> dollar here, a dollar there...

Exactly why I don't fool around with saving personal change. One big
hassle to count, roll, schlep...

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Nov 27 2007 5:24 pm
From: krw

In article <13kn2gsaj21nj44@corp.supernews.com>, gheston@hiwaay.net
says...
> In article <QZudnaaoIa8LSdfanZ2dnUVZ_oSnnZ2d@comcast.com>,
> Goomba38 <Goomba38@comcast.net> wrote:
> [ ... ]
> >Well.. just recently while cleaning my deceased mother in law's
> >apartment (out of state) out we found multiple jars and bags of coins
> >she'd been stashing. Time was at a premium so coinstar machine certainly
> >was the best option for us. We ended up with $397.00 that we didn't have
> >to haul or carry out of state. Try carrying that much coin in carry on
> >luggage at the airport....
>
> Wonder how many rare/silver coins were in those jars and bags...

Just drop them on the counter and it'll be immediately obvious if
there are any silver coins in the bunch. They're pretty easy to spot
too. The chances of finding a rare coin these days is pretty small.

> I'd have shipped them home UPS ground and gone through them.

Do you often ship ballast via UPS?

--
Keith

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Thank China for cheap Thanksgiving Black Friday shopping
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/7d50a01415e1d485?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 7 ==
Date: Tues, Nov 27 2007 1:11 pm
From: david_huang2007@hotmail.com

All you American consumers should reflect on the post-Thanksgiving
week on the fact, that the "cheap Chinese" your gov't complains about
all the time fuels your economy. I bet you wouldn't pay as cheap for
a home-made product. Just think about it when your government seeks to
limit investments by Chinese companies in US assets. Just bear in mind
that your government owes us 2 trillion dollars in T-bonds; squeak
about trade deficit, but it's us that are ascending. So have a merry
Christmas , but always remember at the back of your collective heads
who really is the master of your economy.

David Huang

== 2 of 7 ==
Date: Tues, Nov 27 2007 2:19 pm
From: Brablo

It's not $2T, but more like $1.4T.

Oh yeah, why do the Chinese buy our bonds when it appears that our
currency is over-valued? Why don't they buy Euros, Rupees, or even
Yens? I realize that the Japanese pay very little in rates, but the
Fisher Parity Laws are at work.

Finally, there was something in macroeconomics that I never could
understand regarding China and trade deficits. I realize that the
trade imbalance with China is about $200B. But what if the exports to
China are very profitable (i.e. 30% profit margins) compared to China,
who are selling at losses (i.e. -5% proft margins, let's say for
example). So China is losing money to the USA, and this is, in a way,
has the same net-effect as a charity to the USA from China. Am I
missing something here?

I know why China sells at a loss to the USA: To capture market share,
and so foreigners like USA can help set up industries there and teach
them best practices of an industry/corporation.

On Nov 27, 4:11 pm, david_huang2...@hotmail.com wrote:
> All you American consumers should reflect on the post-Thanksgiving
> week on the fact, that the "cheap Chinese" your gov't complains about
> all the time fuels your economy. I bet you wouldn't pay as cheap for
> a home-made product. Just think about it when your government seeks to
> limit investments by Chinese companies in US assets. Just bear in mind
> that your government owes us 2 trillion dollars in T-bonds; squeak
> about trade deficit, but it's us that are ascending. So have a merry
> Christmas , but always remember at the back of your collective heads
> who really is the master of your economy.
>
> David Huang

== 3 of 7 ==
Date: Tues, Nov 27 2007 2:28 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

Brablo <gestureofrespect@yahoo.com> wrote

> It's not $2T, but more like $1.4T.

> Oh yeah, why do the Chinese buy our bonds when
> it appears that our currency is over-valued? Why
> don't they buy Euros, Rupees, or even Yens?

Because those arent running the deficits that the US is, and so
dont have bonds available in anything like the volume they need.

Some countrys dont even have deficits currently
and arent selling bonds anymore because they dont.

> I realize that the Japanese pay very little in rates,

Which might just be why no one is interested in their bonds.

> but the Fisher Parity Laws are at work.

Nope.

> Finally, there was something in macroeconomics that I never could
> understand regarding China and trade deficits. I realize that the
> trade imbalance with China is about $200B. But what if the exports to
> China are very profitable (i.e. 30% profit margins) compared to China,
> who are selling at losses (i.e. -5% proft margins, let's say for example).

That aint what is happening on either count.

> So China is losing money to the USA,

No they arent.

> and this is, in a way, has the same net-effect
> as a charity to the USA from China.

No it aint.

> Am I missing something here?

Yep, china isnt selling at a loss to the US for starters.

> I know why China sells at a loss to the USA:

They dont.

> To capture market share, and so foreigners like USA can help set up
> industries there and teach them best practices of an industry/corporation.

That isnt what is happening either.

> On Nov 27, 4:11 pm, david_huang2...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> All you American consumers should reflect on the post-Thanksgiving
>> week on the fact, that the "cheap Chinese" your gov't complains about
>> all the time fuels your economy. I bet you wouldn't pay as cheap for
>> a home-made product. Just think about it when your government seeks
>> to limit investments by Chinese companies in US assets. Just bear in
>> mind that your government owes us 2 trillion dollars in T-bonds;
>> squeak about trade deficit, but it's us that are ascending. So have
>> a merry Christmas , but always remember at the back of your
>> collective heads who really is the master of your economy.
>>
>> David Huang

== 4 of 7 ==
Date: Tues, Nov 27 2007 4:02 pm
From: James

On Nov 27, 5:19 pm, Brablo <gestureofresp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> It's not $2T, but more like $1.4T.
>
> Oh yeah, why do the Chinese buy our bonds when it appears that our
> currency is over-valued? Why don't they buy Euros, Rupees, or even
> Yens? I realize that the Japanese pay very little in rates, but the
> Fisher Parity Laws are at work.
>
> Finally, there was something in macroeconomics that I never could
> understand regarding China and trade deficits. I realize that the
> trade imbalance with China is about $200B. But what if the exports to
> China are very profitable (i.e. 30% profit margins) compared to China,
> who are selling at losses (i.e. -5% proft margins, let's say for
> example). So China is losing money to the USA, and this is, in a way,
> has the same net-effect as a charity to the USA from China. Am I
> missing something here?
>
> I know why China sells at a loss to the USA: To capture market share,
> and so foreigners like USA can help set up industries there and teach
> them best practices of an industry/corporation.
>
It's the yankee trader who's making China sell at no profit. If the
Chinese factory owner tries to charge a penny more a piece, Walmart
will just order from someone else or maybe buy from Vietnam or India.
The Chinese government allows this because an underpaid Chinese is
better than an unemployed Chinese.

== 5 of 7 ==
Date: Tues, Nov 27 2007 4:22 pm
From: rst0wxyz

On Nov 27, 4:02 pm, James <j0069b...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Nov 27, 5:19 pm, Brablo <gestureofresp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > It's not $2T, but more like $1.4T.
>
> > Oh yeah, why do the Chinese buy our bonds when it appears that our
> > currency is over-valued? Why don't they buy Euros, Rupees, or even
> > Yens? I realize that the Japanese pay very little in rates, but the
> > Fisher Parity Laws are at work.
>
> > Finally, there was something in macroeconomics that I never could
> > understand regarding China and trade deficits. I realize that the
> > trade imbalance with China is about $200B. But what if the exports to
> > China are very profitable (i.e. 30% profit margins) compared to China,
> > who are selling at losses (i.e. -5% proft margins, let's say for
> > example). So China is losing money to the USA, and this is, in a way,
> > has the same net-effect as a charity to the USA from China. Am I
> > missing something here?
>
> > I know why China sells at a loss to the USA: To capture market share,
> > and so foreigners like USA can help set up industries there and teach
> > them best practices of an industry/corporation.
>
> It's the yankee trader who's making China sell at no profit. If the
> Chinese factory owner tries to charge a penny more a piece, Walmart
> will just order from someone else or maybe buy from Vietnam or India.
> The Chinese government allows this because an underpaid Chinese is

"underpaid" depends on "cost of living standard". If this Chinese
worker can live relatively well and still able to put away some money
in a savings account, then this worker is not underpaid.

American people have a tendency to compare our pay-scale to China's
average worker's pay-scale. Earlier, someone bitterly complained
about Nike paying Chinese workers $1,50/hr, and yet sell their shoes
for US$120.00 per pair. I did the calculation for 1.50 x 40 hours per
week x 52 weeks a year x USdollar to RMB conversion, and it came out
to 24,960RMB per year. This is good income for a Chinese worker in
China.

> better than an unemployed Chinese.

== 6 of 7 ==
Date: Tues, Nov 27 2007 5:48 pm
From: mercuryinfestedyingyang@gmail.com

Reflect on the massive, polluted shithole your country is becoming.
Putrid water, lakes so thick with algae you could walk across them,
coal plants spewing tons of mercury into your air that your children
ingest while thousands of miners die underground. Have a Merry
Christmas while you choke on your polluted air, drink from your
polluted water supplies and eat your chemical and insecticide laden
food.

== 7 of 7 ==
Date: Tues, Nov 27 2007 5:56 pm
From: mercuryinfestedyingyang@gmail.com

Of the 20 most polluted cities in the world, 16 are in China. Enjoy.

http://en.epochtimes.com/news/6-6-10/42510.html

"Environmental problems have become a main factor affecting China's
national security and social stability."

The most polluted city in the world is Linfen, China

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Dump the Dollar, China State TV Tells Viewers
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/7ae0cbeede57b9a7?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Nov 27 2007 1:36 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

CycleSurfer <homerunstrategy@yahoo.com> wrote

> Can We Achieve Peace in the Middle East?
> By Ron Paul...

> January 22, 2007

> Former President Carter's new book about the ongoing conflict between
> Israel and Palestine has raised the ire of Americans on two sides of
> the debate. I say "two sides" rather than "both sides," because there
> is another perspective that is never discussed in American politics.
> That perspective is the perspective of our founding fathers, namely
> that America should not intervene in the internal affairs of other nations.

> Everyone assumes America must play the leading role in crafting
> some settlement or compromise between the Israelis and the
> Palestinians. But Jefferson, Madison, and Washington explicitly
> warned against involving ourselves in foreign conflicts.

Using that mindless line, the US wouldnt have gotten involved in WW1 or
WW2 and the world would be a VERY different place now if it had not.

> The conflict in Gaza and the West Bank is almost like a schoolyard
> fight: when America and the world stand watching, neither side will
> give an inch for fear of appearing weak. But deep down, the people
> who actually have to live there desperately want an end to the violence.
> They don't need solutions imposed by outsiders. It's easy to sit here
> safe in America and talk tough, but we're not the ones suffering.

> Practically speaking, our meddling in the Middle East has only
> intensified strife and conflict. American tax dollars have
> militarized the entire region. We give Israel about $3 billion each
> year, but we also give Egypt $2 billion. Most other Middle East
> countries get money too, some of which ends up in the hands of
> Palestinian terrorists. Both sides have far more military weapons as
> a result. Talk about adding fuel to the fire! Our foolish and
> unconstitutional foreign aid has produced more violence, not less.
>
> Congress and each successive administration pledge their political,
> financial, and military support for Israel. Yet while we call
> ourselves a strong ally of the Israeli people, we send billions in
> foreign aid every year to some Muslim states that many Israelis regard
> as enemies. From the Israeli point of view, many of the same Islamic
> nations we fund with our tax dollars want to destroy the Jewish state.
> Many average Israelis and American Jews see America as hypocritically
> hedging its bets.
>
> This illustrates perfectly the inherent problem with foreign aid: once
> we give money to one country, we have to give it to all the rest or
> risk making enemies. This is especially true in the Middle East and
> other strife-torn regions, where our financial support for one side is
> seen as an act of aggression by the other. Just as our money never
> makes Israel secure, it doesn't buy us any true friends elsewhere in
> the region. On the contrary, millions of Muslims hate the United
> States.
>
> It is time to challenge the notion that it is our job to broker peace
> in the Middle East and every other troubled region across the globe.
> America can and should use every diplomatic means at our disposal to
> end the violence in the West Bank, but we should draw the line at any
> further entanglement. Third-party outsiders cannot impose political
> solutions in Palestine or anywhere else. Peace can be achieved only
> when self-determination operates freely in all nations. "Peace plans"
> imposed by outsiders or the UN cause resentment and seldom produce
> lasting peace.
>
> The simple truth is that we cannot resolve every human conflict across
> the globe, and there will always be violence somewhere on earth. The
> fatal conceit lies in believing America can impose geopolitical
> solutions
>
> ================
>
> The REAL REASON RON PAUL IS ATTACKED. ONLY HE , KUCINICH AND DODD ARE
> NOT CFR MEMBERS OR CONTROLLED. EVEN THE CHRISTIAN FURHER HEIL
> HUCKSTER IS ENDORSED BY THE CFR..
>
> THE ONE WORLD CABAL..

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Web site for product reviews?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/9ca40f50a5635d0d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Tues, Nov 27 2007 3:17 pm
From: "Shawn H."

In article <Xns99F542AAED5B0kenkderucom@130.133.1.4>,
Ken Knecht <kenk6600@gmail.com> wrote:

> Is there a trustworthy web site like Consumer Reports magazine that
> covers less expensive items, like heaters, to help make buying decisions?

Why not check Consumer Reports' web site? They review a wide range of
products, including less expensive items such as space heaters.

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Tues, Nov 27 2007 4:03 pm
From: me@privacy.net

>Why not check Consumer Reports' web site?

Speaking of which..... does anyone have a subscription
to the CR web site and think it worth it?

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Tues, Nov 27 2007 4:44 pm
From: "John Weiss"

<me@privacy.net> wrote...
> >Why not check Consumer Reports' web site?
>
> Speaking of which..... does anyone have a subscription
> to the CR web site and think it worth it?

Had one; dropped it. It wasn't worth the $$ they charged for piss-poor tech
support and a Microsoft-dependent site. To add even more insult, they continued
the "auto-renewal" on my credit card even after I cancelled!

CR is getting to be too much like some of the "bad" companies they report on!

==============================================================================
TOPIC: check out this site!
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/21916699998dbd57?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Nov 27 2007 4:19 pm
From: sjyh4bije5qjp47gdn75@gmail.com

it has all the latest music, ringtones and jokes! http://ringtones.c-o.in

==============================================================================
TOPIC: 4Front Investigations Inc. 888-248-4004 Full Service Nationwide Offices
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Nov 27 2007 4:58 pm
From: 4frontinvestigations@gmail.com

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==============================================================================

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25 new messages in 16 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

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TOPIC: Happy Thanksgiving MCFL
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/6eb202bfcb25db33?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Nov 27 2007 12:44 am
From: Jon v Leipzig

root wrote:
> The Real Bev <bashley101+usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I can't figure out whether I'm a blessing or a jinx.
>>
>
> A blessing.

Ditto that
(if it's the Real one....not a cheap Chinese imitation)

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Nov 27 2007 10:03 am
From: Dennis

On Tue, 27 Nov 2007 03:44:12 -0500, Jon v Leipzig <JVL@myday.com>
wrote:

>root wrote:
>> The Real Bev <bashley101+usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I can't figure out whether I'm a blessing or a jinx.
>>>
>>
>> A blessing.
>
>Ditto that
>(if it's the Real one....not a cheap Chinese imitation)

Maybe she's a curse-inside-a-blessing, like: "May you live in
interesting times."

Dennis (evil)
--
"There is a fine line between participation and mockery" - Wally

==============================================================================
TOPIC: ##### Make Money Online Without Investing Single Dollar #####
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/393353a695e25f42?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Nov 27 2007 12:52 am
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== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Nov 27 2007 2:17 am
From: Jeff

timeOday wrote:

I was little surprised about that not being feasable to fix so I did
some looking.

<URL: http://www.consumeraffairs.com/homeowners/sears_refrig.html/>

It looks like sears is buying some dogs.

You can find out who made it here:

<URL: http://www.appliance411.com/purchase/sears.shtml />

Now, I would normally think that you should just find an appliance
repair place that was able to deal with whatever problem your fridge
had, but it may make more sense to not pour money into a pit.

> Shouldn't be that much harder than replacing the power steering pump on
> my car, should it? But apparently it is, everybody says just throw
it out.

I don't know about the "new" refrigerators (they have become much
more efficient), but the in the old ones the compressor was always easy
to get to. They do have to be brazed in and evacuated and refilled so
it's not a home type repair. Unless you are fearless.
>
> The companies think they are getting off scot free because their
> warranties are short, but I tell you, I'm never buying an expensive
> fridge with a fancy fascia or features, so long as they put short-lived
> mechanicals in them. Neither will I spend more blindly hoping to get
> what I pay for. I would pay a couple hundred extra for something with a
> 10 year warranty though.

How will you know? And in the case of Sears, people with warranties
still had to pay substantial labor costs. It sounds like your plan is to
spend even more money. I'd try to get over being pissed off and do
something frugal, since this is what this group is about.

Jeff

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Nov 27 2007 4:26 am
From: Derald

Jeff <dont_bug_me@all.uk> wrote:

>I'd try to get over being pissed off
...often and act of frugality ;-)

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Tues, Nov 27 2007 3:29 am
From: Goomba38

Gary Heston wrote:
> In article <QZudnaaoIa8LSdfanZ2dnUVZ_oSnnZ2d@comcast.com>,
> Goomba38 <Goomba38@comcast.net> wrote:
> [ ... ]
>> Well.. just recently while cleaning my deceased mother in law's
>> apartment (out of state) out we found multiple jars and bags of coins
>> she'd been stashing. Time was at a premium so coinstar machine certainly
>> was the best option for us. We ended up with $397.00 that we didn't have
>> to haul or carry out of state. Try carrying that much coin in carry on
>> luggage at the airport....
>
> Wonder how many rare/silver coins were in those jars and bags...
>
> I'd have shipped them home UPS ground and gone through them.
>
>
> Gary
>
No...the cost of shipping that poundage wouldn't make it worth our
while. In this case ignorance is bliss.

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Tues, Nov 27 2007 6:48 am
From: "Evelyn C. Leeper"

Goomba38 wrote:
> Gary Heston wrote:
>> In article <QZudnaaoIa8LSdfanZ2dnUVZ_oSnnZ2d@comcast.com>,
>> Goomba38 <Goomba38@comcast.net> wrote:
>> [ ... ]
>>> Well.. just recently while cleaning my deceased mother in law's
>>> apartment (out of state) out we found multiple jars and bags of coins
>>> she'd been stashing. Time was at a premium so coinstar machine
>>> certainly was the best option for us. We ended up with $397.00 that
>>> we didn't have to haul or carry out of state. Try carrying that much
>>> coin in carry on luggage at the airport....
>>
>> Wonder how many rare/silver coins were in those jars and bags...
>>
>> I'd have shipped them home UPS ground and gone through them.
>>
> No...the cost of shipping that poundage wouldn't make it worth our
> while. In this case ignorance is bliss.

I suspect very few. My mother used to check through the coins from the
machines owned by my brother's newspaper before he rolled and deposited
them. She found only a few silver coins back in the 1970s. by the
1980s, there were none. (How many do *you* see in all the change you
handle?)

--
Evelyn C. Leeper
I believe I found the missing link between animal
and civilized man. It is us. -Konrad Lorenz

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Tues, Nov 27 2007 7:12 am
From: Goomba38

Evelyn C. Leeper wrote:
> Goomba38 wrote:
>> Gary Heston wrote:

>>> Wonder how many rare/silver coins were in those jars and bags...
>>>
>>> I'd have shipped them home UPS ground and gone through them.
>>>
>> No...the cost of shipping that poundage wouldn't make it worth our
>> while. In this case ignorance is bliss.
>
> I suspect very few. My mother used to check through the coins from the
> machines owned by my brother's newspaper before he rolled and deposited
> them. She found only a few silver coins back in the 1970s. by the
> 1980s, there were none. (How many do *you* see in all the change you
> handle?)
>
When I was a teenager in the 80's,I used to work for Maryland National
Bank's Cash Processing Center and we'd often get bags of coins which
when counted we'd find silver. We were allowed to buy those coins at
face value and I'd collected hundreds of dollars (at face value) of
silver which was increasing in price. We sold the silver to dealers for
a nice bit of money.. but silver dropped in price and I've never cared
to play that way again. I don't have the patience or ability to store or
haul coins about waiting for silver to go up.

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Tues, Nov 27 2007 9:16 am
From: "Chloe"

"Evelyn C. Leeper" <eleeper@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:y6W2j.18$UA1.7@newsfe10.lga...
>>> Wonder how many rare/silver coins were in those jars and bags...
>>>
>>> I'd have shipped them home UPS ground and gone through them.
>>>
>> No...the cost of shipping that poundage wouldn't make it worth our while.
>> In this case ignorance is bliss.
>
> I suspect very few. My mother used to check through the coins from the
> machines owned by my brother's newspaper before he rolled and deposited
> them. She found only a few silver coins back in the 1970s. by the 1980s,
> there were none. (How many do *you* see in all the change you handle?)

They're rare because they're...well....rare. When DH and I settled several
relatives' estates we found coins that people had saved for one reason or
another, thinking they were worth something or should be valuable someday. I
made a couple fruitless trips to dealers, only to be told that my coins with
a face value of, say, $6.00 were worth a whole $10.00. It definitely wasn't
worth the trouble.

Unless you're an expert, it's pretty difficult to figure out if stuff is
valuable, in general. In the estates I was involved with--where quite a few
run-of-the-mill antique items were involved--I only recall one big surprise.
My MIL, who came from a farming background in a small town in the Midwest,
had somehow acquired an antique children's book that according to the
dealers who came to the estate auction was quite rare. They bid the box
containing the book up to over $100, as I recall. To us, the contents looked
interesting and quaint, but that was all. I'd have guessed a value of
probably $5 for the works.

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Nov 27 2007 4:00 am
From: Just A User

Logan Shaw wrote:
> Just A User wrote:
>> It might not be as frugal as XP, but I seriously recommend Vista over
>> XP. I used to run an XP powered desktop, but switched to a Vista
>> powered laptop aand it's a much more stable operating system. I have
>> been running the laptop now for about 10 months and have not had a
>> single issue. Where as on my XP desktop I had it crash (hard) every
>> couple of months.
>
> That's sort of an apples and oranges comparison. Not just the OS is
> different but also the hardware. Even if the desktop hardware was fine,
> it could easily be that a device driver for the desktop hardware was
> buggy, causing crashes. Since the laptop would have different devices
> (almost entirely -- different motherboard chipset, different video card,
> etc., etc.) you wouldn't be running the same device drivers on the
> laptop as on the desktop.
>
> As much as I despise Microsoft[1], I have to credit them with finally
> developing a stable operating system that doesn't really crash unless
> something other than the operating system is faulty. XP is basically
> stable. Vista may be stable as well, but I think if you had problems
> with XP, it might not have been XP itself, but some other related issue.
>
> - Logan
>
> [1] and for that reason have not bought and do not use Windows,
> at least at home.

Well the desktop was all original, no hardware was ever changed, and it
was 5+ years old, but I had problems with it from the day it was bought.
After doing price checks on new / upgraded hardware for the desktop, I
decided it was more cost effective to move to a new pc rather than fix /
upgrade the pc, but now that I have done it, I don't regret it at all.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Nov 27 2007 10:22 am
From: Dennis

On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 21:13:07 -0500, Jeff <dont_bug_me@all.uk> wrote:

> Dennis, here is where I'm at with the HDTV. Fry's had some specials.
>
> Avermedia AverTVHD Volar ($9 after rebate)
> BE-2300 AMD dual core (boxed with fan) with a ECS NFORCE6M MB - $58 -
>no rebate
> VisionTek X1550 with 512 of DDR2 ($39 after rebate)
> 2Gb DDR2 Corsair 800MHz ($35 after rebate)
>
> I think that's all mid range stuff. The CPU is on the lower end of
>current (3 Gig Intel dual core rough equivalent ~2 gig clock) but might
>be hackable as it is a low power chip.
>
> I think that should do 780P and 1080i. What do you think?

Looks like it should fine for HDTV (IMHO). Let us know how it works
out.

Dennis (evil)
--
I'm behind the eight ball, ahead of the curve, riding the wave,
dodging the bullet and pushing the envelope. -George Carlin

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Tues, Nov 27 2007 5:26 am
From: Ken Knecht

Any recommendations for an electric space heater? In the past those I've
purchased had or soon had noisy fans and sometimes inaccurate thermostats
(shut off too soon even at maximum heat setting (Holmes). I need it for
an approximately 12 x 12' bedroom.

TIA

--
When you choose the lesser of two evils, always
remember that it is still an evil.

Max Lerner

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Tues, Nov 27 2007 6:01 am
From: Anthony Matonak

Ken Knecht wrote:
> Any recommendations for an electric space heater? In the past those I've
> purchased had or soon had noisy fans and sometimes inaccurate thermostats
> (shut off too soon even at maximum heat setting (Holmes). I need it for
> an approximately 12 x 12' bedroom.

You could go with one of those oil filled radiator style heaters.
As I recall, they don't have fans and they don't get hot enough
to catch anything on fire. You might add a ceiling fan, if you
don't have one already, to stir up the air a little.

One thing I've noticed about those little fan heaters is that they
usually have an internal thermal cut-off that turns them off when
they overheat. If the fan isn't blowing good enough or it's got a
lot of dust blocking it, it'll overheat long before it gets the
room up to the thermostat temperature. Cleaning them out with a
vac every now and then helps a lot.

Anthony

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Tues, Nov 27 2007 6:29 am
From: James

On Nov 27, 9:01 am, Anthony Matonak
<anthony...@nothing.like.socal.rr.com> wrote:
> Ken Knecht wrote:
> > Any recommendations for an electric space heater? In the past those I've
> > purchased had or soon had noisy fans and sometimes inaccurate thermostats
> > (shut off too soon even at maximum heat setting (Holmes). I need it for
> > an approximately 12 x 12' bedroom.
>
> You could go with one of those oil filled radiator style heaters.
> As I recall, they don't have fans and they don't get hot enough
> to catch anything on fire. You might add a ceiling fan, if you
> don't have one already, to stir up the air a little.
>
> One thing I've noticed about those little fan heaters is that they
> usually have an internal thermal cut-off that turns them off when
> they overheat. If the fan isn't blowing good enough or it's got a
> lot of dust blocking it, it'll overheat long before it gets the
> room up to the thermostat temperature. Cleaning them out with a
> vac every now and then helps a lot.
>
I second that.

I bought a house with an add on room built by the previous owner as a
laundry room. Its very poorly constructed and insulated. While I've
done a lot to try and fix this, it still gets very cold.

I tried many types of heaters and the best is the oil filled radiator.
It seems to be a more constant heat, though it takes longer to heat
up. Its silent. No moving parts to break.

James

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Tues, Nov 27 2007 9:42 am
From: Jeff

James wrote:

> On Nov 27, 9:01 am, Anthony Matonak
> <anthony...@nothing.like.socal.rr.com> wrote:
>
>>Ken Knecht wrote:
>>
>>>Any recommendations for an electric space heater? In the past those I've
>>>purchased had or soon had noisy fans and sometimes inaccurate thermostats
>>>(shut off too soon even at maximum heat setting (Holmes). I need it for
>>>an approximately 12 x 12' bedroom.
>>
>>You could go with one of those oil filled radiator style heaters.
>>As I recall, they don't have fans and they don't get hot enough
>>to catch anything on fire. You might add a ceiling fan, if you
>>don't have one already, to stir up the air a little.
>>
>>One thing I've noticed about those little fan heaters is that they
>>usually have an internal thermal cut-off that turns them off when
>>they overheat. If the fan isn't blowing good enough or it's got a
>>lot of dust blocking it, it'll overheat long before it gets the
>>room up to the thermostat temperature. Cleaning them out with a
>>vac every now and then helps a lot.
>>
>
> I second that.

And, I'll third that.

The radiator type are the safest. The heat is the most comfortable.

And any radiant heater will be superior if it is drafty as it heats
the contents rather than the air which in a drafty room is on the way out!

If you need quicker heat (or a small heater), as in a bathroom, then
the ceramic heaters (in a ground fault receptical}. I like my Titans.
Ceramics don't have exposed hot wires. You have to be more carefull
though than a radiator.

Put any other kind of fan forced heater off your list.

The thermostat on my Soleus radiator crapped out, so I would look at
the other radiators (my DeLonghi is fine). There's minor tweaks from one
to another, but all space heaters deliver the same amount of heat out
for the same input in.

Jeff
>
> I bought a house with an add on room built by the previous owner as a
> laundry room. Its very poorly constructed and insulated. While I've
> done a lot to try and fix this, it still gets very cold.
>
> I tried many types of heaters and the best is the oil filled radiator.
> It seems to be a more constant heat, though it takes longer to heat
> up. Its silent. No moving parts to break.
>
> James
>

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Nov 27 2007 5:33 am
From: Ken Knecht

Is there a trustworthy web site like Consumer Reports magazine that
covers less expensive items, like heaters, to help make buying decisions?

TIA

--
When you choose the lesser of two evils, always
remember that it is still an evil.

Max Lerner

==============================================================================
TOPIC:

www.globwholesale.com

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Nov 27 2007 6:00 am
From: globwholesale@126.com

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30.5
31

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==============================================================================
TOPIC: What Would Jesus Buy?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/e2d6a98943947158?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Nov 27 2007 6:09 am
From: Britty

wow!!!! amazing.

n Nov 26, 11:45 am, "Rod Speed" <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote:
> ultim...@hotmail.com wrote
>
>
>
>
>
> > Rod Speed <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote
> >> ultim...@hotmail.com wrote
> >>> Rod Speed <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote
> >>>>> Especially considering that his execution was partly about
> >>>>> punishment for that incident at the temple, where he was...
> >>>> No it wasnt.
> >>> I love gifts just as much as the next person,
> >> More fool you.
> >>> but when you start seeing Christmas displays being put out
> >>> enmasse weeks before Halloween, or in *September*, and the
> >>> media is pumping out endless commercialized sludge (and very
> >>> sickening in it's blatancy), then something is seriously wrong.
> >> You should do the decent thing and set fire to the ads in 'protest', my lord and master
> >>> Maybe they should have "gift day" or something to separate
> >>> the commercialism from Christmas, as it should be.
> >> It was always a pagan ceremony, fuckwit child.
> > I think the pagans would be just as disgusted.
>
> You clearly wouldnt know what a real pagan was if one bit you on your lard arse, child.
>
> And you clearly arent even capable of thought.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Make Money With GOOGLE- Free To Join
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/74edc72541a5755c?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Nov 27 2007 6:49 am
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==============================================================================
TOPIC: VACATION TIPS OF THE DAY.....
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/4b42bbf5cd6760ff?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Nov 27 2007 7:27 am
From: ati

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TOPIC: Free Online TV And Radio Streams - Enjoy Best Internet TV And Radio
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http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/8b1c4770263a1e1b?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Nov 27 2007 7:58 am
From: cakapgold

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TOPIC: Earn Over A Million Dollars Without Even Owning A Website!
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/325be3a4a6539bb0?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
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== 1 of 1 ==
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http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/098025a7c58a8ecf?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Nov 27 2007 10:15 am
From: globwholesale@126.com

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Website : http://www.globwholesale.com
Yahoo ID:globwholesale@yahoo.com.cn
Michael
Fashion Footwear Industrial Co.,Ltd.(Fujian,CHINA)

==============================================================================

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007

25 new messages in 9 topics - digest

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