Frugal Living: Dec 21, 2007

Friday, December 21, 2007

25 new messages in 13 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Debit card article in Reader's Digest
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/30646f032f4ff9e6?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 21 2007 11:35 am
From: "M.L."

>> I'd love to know any reason that someone would use a MC/Visa logo
>> debit card rather than an actual credit card, because I can't think
>> of any good reasons.

No possible risk to their credit status due to spending beyond one's
means.

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 21 2007 1:35 pm
From: George Grapman

M.L. wrote:
>>> I'd love to know any reason that someone would use a MC/Visa logo
>>> debit card rather than an actual credit card, because I can't think
>>> of any good reasons.
>
>
> No possible risk to their credit status due to spending beyond one's
> means.
>
Also useful to people with bad credit who can not get a regular card.

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 21 2007 5:16 pm
From: imascot

=?UTF-8?B?U01TIOaWr+iSguaWh+KAoiDlpI8=?=
<scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote in news:476beee3$0$84174
$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net:

> email.is.ignored@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> A lot of the discussion in this thread is about debit vs. credit
>> cards, but the real discussion should be about credit-enabled debit
>> cards. Your financial risk from a credit-enabled debit card is so
>> much greater than a normal ATM card. So if debit cards are the right
>> choice for you, by all means continue using them, just contact your
>> bank and get a debit card which *always* requires PIN entry.
>
> That really is the key point. Readers Digest should have distinguished
> between a PIN based ATM card, and debit card that can be used like a
> credit card with only a signature (or no signature in many cases). You
> want to avoid the latter at all costs, but the pin-based ATM card is
> pretty safe.

Banks have done a great job of not mentioning the existence of plain vanilla
PIN-based ATM cards, to the extent that many people, probably including the
RD author, do not even know that they are an option (USENET readers
excepted, of course).

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 21 2007 5:19 pm
From: imascot

George Grapman <sfgeorge@paccbell.net> wrote in news:0lWaj.704$se5.697
@nlpi069.nbdc.sbc.com:

> M.L. wrote:
>>>> I'd love to know any reason that someone would use a MC/Visa logo
>>>> debit card rather than an actual credit card, because I can't think
>>>> of any good reasons.
>>
>>
>> No possible risk to their credit status due to spending beyond one's
>> means.
>>
> Also useful to people with bad credit who can not get a regular card.

Coincidentally, there is a real life problem with a debit card just down the
article list here under "Do Not Buy From Circuit City"

==============================================================================
TOPIC: More Selective reporting from Limbaugh
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/306db91f018962b9?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 21 2007 11:46 am
From: jdoe

On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 17:18:32 GMT, George Grapman
<sfgeorge@paccbell.net> wrote:

> Opens the show by talking about the increase in consumer spending.
>Omits these details:
>
> Consumer confidence at its lowest in three years (when it goes up
>Limbaugh boasts about while ignoring the general downward trend, when it
>drops he ignores it).
>
> Retail sales dropped for the third straight week.
>
> Inflation exceeds the Feds "comfort level" for inflation.
do you mean that you expect him to report the BS propaganda that the
MSM is pushing versus the real facts outlets like the NY Times and the
major networks suppress?
__________________________________________
Never argue with an idiot.
They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 21 2007 12:31 pm
From: clams casino

George Grapman wrote:

Leads me to believe Rod Speed is really Rush.

Everyone knows today's stock market climb is all due to GW's 2002 tax cut..

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 21 2007 1:07 pm
From: George Grapman

Sorry, wrong group. My New Years resolution is to check where I am
before posting. My punishment will consist of removing Rod Speed from my
kill file for 24 hours each time I fail to do that.

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 21 2007 1:31 pm
From: George Grapman

jdoe wrote:
> On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 17:18:32 GMT, George Grapman
> <sfgeorge@paccbell.net> wrote:
>
>> Opens the show by talking about the increase in consumer spending.
>> Omits these details:
>>
>> Consumer confidence at its lowest in three years (when it goes up
>> Limbaugh boasts about while ignoring the general downward trend, when it
>> drops he ignores it).
>>
>> Retail sales dropped for the third straight week.
>>
>> Inflation exceeds the Feds "comfort level" for inflation.
> do you mean that you expect him to report the BS propaganda that the
> MSM is pushing versus the real facts outlets like the NY Times and the
> major networks suppress?
> __________________________________________
> Never argue with an idiot.
> They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
Which "real facts " would that be? The same AP story that had the
increase in consumer spending also had the figures that I cited.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Will an oil-filled radiator save me money?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/f6eb6f9a24be546e?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 21 2007 12:16 pm
From: "** Frank **"

"Joe" <joe5345@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:fcf54fe3-975b-44e5-ad3b-12942a8c4171@d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> I'm running through around 132 gallons of oil per month in my 1300 sq
> ft Cape Cod house. At $3 per gallon that's $400 to heat my house! I've
> been reading about oil filled radiators and I read one person's acct
> that he was using it to heat a 600 sq foot area and it only cost him
> 10kwh a day. At my extremely high electricity rate of .22/kwh I would
> seemingly still be saving a ton to heat my house if I bought two of
> these heaters and ran them all day. ($66x2=$132.) Is that possible?
> What am I missing?

Shouldn't be too much of a problem to fine free firewood. A free standing or
fireplace insert with forced air would heat up 1,300sf area in a few hours.
I wonder if your system could (or if its legal) run on used engine oil? You
could go around and collect all the used engine oil, maybe they even pay you
to hall it away. We have people use old kitchen grease to run diesel cars.
You could have free electricity with a modified diesel generator set on used
kitchen grease, so go buy a few oil filled radiators.

Attic insulation would get the best bang for the dollar. I would use a heavy
sheet (like 6 mil) of clear plastic over the windows until you get some
funds for double or triple pane windows.

Hey you could forget the whole thing and move to sunny Southern California,
like San Diego, and enjoy the good weather all year long. Houses are much
cheaper now in California.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 21 2007 5:13 pm
From: "Lou"

"Joe" <joe5345@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:5067ab38-704f-4252-a51e-136a07493642@q77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> On Dec 21, 1:06 pm, "Rod Speed" <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Joe <joe5...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Dec 21, 6:32 am, Shawn Hirn <s...@comcast.net> wrote:
> >
> > >> Impossible to say. Each person's house is unique. How warm do you
> > >> prefer your home to be?
> >
> > > right now I'm wearing two fleece jackets, fleece pants and fleece
> > > socks just so I can keep my thermostat at 65
> >
> > > How well insulated is your home?
> > > It's a 50 year old home that I bought last year. the Windows are 50
> > > years old and although there are no real breezes coming through I
> > > thinnk their full insulative properties went bye bye long ago. I've
> > > somewhat eliminated all the breezes coming from outlets and doors but
> > > the outside walls are still too cold to the touch for warm air to
> > > stick around too long. That combined with the cold windows seem to cut
> > > down on the residual heat circulation.
> > >> How's the air circulation?
> > > Not great. The upstairs is consistently colder than the downstairs by
> > > 2-3 degrees, that's why I'm thinking a space heater upstairs (2 rooms)
> > > would save me money because I wouldn't have to heat up the whole
> > > downstairs to stay warm at night.
> >
> > Makes a lot more sense to do the bed better for that.
> >
> > > The best way to find out is to try it. The cost of a couple
> > >> of good oil-filled space heaters is a lot less than $400,
> > >> so give it a try and see how it works out for you.
> > > $200? I've notices there are some well rated models in the
> > > $40-$70 rannge. Should I stay away from going so cheap?
> >
> > Makes a lot more sense to heat the bed with an electric pad etc.
>
> Yeah well, I have a couple of children that have a penchant for
> knocking their covers off in the middle of the night so I have to keep
> the heat in the low sixties in case.

No you don't - it's more likely that they're knocking the covers off because
they're too warm than it is that they'll freeze because they've knocked the
covers off in a cold bedroom.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: cheap wholesale discount sneakers,clothes...
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/c66005fb836491b6?hl=en
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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Guardian: Carbon myths
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/22b3fd65a2728a83?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 21 2007 2:21 pm
From: Bill Rider

Anthony Matonak wrote:
> Bill Rider wrote:
>> Now I'm curious about my monitor. When I get a chance I'll measure
>> the watts dim and bright. One energy-saving design scheme for
>> handheld devices is to sense the ambient light and adjust the
>> backlight accordingly.
>>
>> This document says some LCD TVs allow an adjustment of of the
>> backlight, which can save 25%:
>>
>> http://www.energystar.gov/ia/partners/prod_development/revisions/downloads/tv_vcr/Ecos_Presentation.pdf

>
>
> It would depend on the source of the light. Big LCD displays typically
> use cold cathode fluorescent lights that can't be dimmed. Small LCD,
> like cell phones and PDAs, use LED backlights. LED backlights have
> started to surface in some high end LCD monitors because they produce
> better colors.
>
> Anthony

I hadn't thought about it so I looked it up. This page says
cold-cathode fluorescents are ideal for dimming. It takes a ballast
that can be adjusted to skip pulses.
http://www.sailboatstuff.com/lt_cold_cathode_linear.html

==============================================================================
TOPIC: buy cheap shoes ( www.shoes-ec.com)
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/0613407ee3d880e1?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 21 2007 2:59 pm
From: Al Bundy

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==============================================================================
TOPIC: So quiet in here. Everyone Chrismas shopping?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/14ff3a2698c21c95?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 6 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 21 2007 3:08 pm
From: Dennis

On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 22:32:05 -0500, Marsha <mas@xeb.net> wrote:

>Oh, stop it. If demand outpaces supply, then you will eventually run
>out, right? You have 100 trees and 50 get cut down. You can only
>replace the 50 that were cut down. These 50 will not be mature for
>years. I really do need someone to explain this to me in simple English.

Suppose it takes 8 years for a tree seedling to mature to a saleable
Christmas tree. Further, say you plan to sell 100 trees per season.
The first year you plant 100 seedlings (plus maybe some extra to
account for loss). The next year you plant the same number, repeating
this each successive year. In the eighth year, you harvest the first
100 trees and plant new trees to replace them. In the ninth year, you
harvest and replace the next 100 to mature, and so on. As long as you
keep this up, there will always be about 100 mature trees to harvest
each Christmas.

Of course, the numbers can be adjusted as necessary each year.

BTW, most of the smaller woodlot operations that I am familiar with
(including mine) do it for tax purposes. Most of the property taxes
on the land in production are deferred until the sale of the wood
product (Christmas trees, timber, firewood, etc.). In the case of a
timber woodlot like mine, that can be 15-20 years until the first
commercial thinning harvest.

Dennis (evil)
--
The honest man is the one who realizes that he cannot
consume more, in his lifetime, than he produces.

== 2 of 6 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 21 2007 4:15 pm
From: Marsha

Dennis wrote:
> Suppose it takes 8 years for a tree seedling to mature to a saleable
> Christmas tree. Further, say you plan to sell 100 trees per season.
> The first year you plant 100 seedlings (plus maybe some extra to
> account for loss). The next year you plant the same number, repeating
> this each successive year. In the eighth year, you harvest the first
> 100 trees and plant new trees to replace them. In the ninth year, you
> harvest and replace the next 100 to mature, and so on. As long as you
> keep this up, there will always be about 100 mature trees to harvest
> each Christmas.
>
> Of course, the numbers can be adjusted as necessary each year.
>
> BTW, most of the smaller woodlot operations that I am familiar with
> (including mine) do it for tax purposes. Most of the property taxes
> on the land in production are deferred until the sale of the wood
> product (Christmas trees, timber, firewood, etc.). In the case of a
> timber woodlot like mine, that can be 15-20 years until the first
> commercial thinning harvest.
>
>
> Dennis (evil)
> --
> The honest man is the one who realizes that he cannot
> consume more, in his lifetime, than he produces.

Okay, I get it now. This was just one of those things that needed an
explanation or example different than what I was thinking. Enjoy your tree!

Marsha/Ohio

== 3 of 6 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 21 2007 4:17 pm
From: Marsha

clams casino wrote:
> Marsha wrote:
>>
>> I'll admit my thinking processes are not normal, but if more people
>> want live trees than what are planted, won't the demand eventually
>> exceed supply? For example, if you have a tree farm with 100 trees
>> and 50 people take trees, you re-plant 50 trees. The next year, you
>> only have 50 trees to offer because it's going to take years for your
>> newly-planted trees to develop, but 50 or more people want your trees,
>> well you eventually won't have any trees ready. I'm really trying to
>> understand this processs, honestly.
>>
>> Marsha/Ohio
>>
>
> Hint - DON'T attempt to start any businesses.

I'm a much better indian than a chief.

Marsha/Ohio

== 4 of 6 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 21 2007 4:30 pm
From: Marsha

barbie gee wrote:
>> "Marsha" <mas@xeb.net> wrote in message
>>> I'll admit my thinking processes are not normal, but if more people want
>>> live trees than what are planted, won't the demand eventually exceed
>>> supply?
>>
>>
>> Yes, and if fewer people want live trees than what are planted, the
>> supply
>> will exceed the demand. I recall more than once driving by tree farms
>> here
>> in the Midwest where there are fields and fields full of trees that have
>> obviously matured past the point of being practical to harvest. I
>> think it's
>> a good bet they were not harvested in order to avoid glutting the
>> market and
>> driving the price down.
>
>
> and, I've yet to see a tree lot "sell out", and I live in a major
> metropolis, not a podunk with a limited market. Maybe those last trees
> are rejects, but they remain unsold, whatever the reason.
>
> Marsha's thinking is painfully linear. There are the different
> varieties of trees, trees of different sizes (meaning ages) and so
> forth. There is NOT simple cut one-replace one system going on here.

Painfully linear? That hurts :-) It was just a simple "I don't quite
understand business" statement. Obviously I don't belong to Mensa in
that department.

Marsha/Ohio

== 5 of 6 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 21 2007 4:34 pm
From: Marsha

Derald wrote:

> Marsha <mas@xeb.net> wrote:
>>I don't mean to offend anyone, but to
>>cut down a live tree and then discard it when you're done just does not
>>make sense to me, even if it is from a "tree farm".
>
> Funny, that's exactly how some folks feel about commercially grown
> flowers.

Flowers that die and get thrown away are not a practical gift, IMO. It
makes more sense to get something that can be re-planted, so you can
enjoy it for years.

Marsha/Ohio

== 6 of 6 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 21 2007 5:20 pm
From: "Lou"

"Marsha" <mas@xeb.net> wrote in message news:fkhm3f$qd9$1@news.datemas.de...
> Derald wrote:
>
> > Marsha <mas@xeb.net> wrote:
> >>I don't mean to offend anyone, but to
> >>cut down a live tree and then discard it when you're done just does not
> >>make sense to me, even if it is from a "tree farm".
> >
> > Funny, that's exactly how some folks feel about commercially grown
> > flowers.
>
> Flowers that die and get thrown away are not a practical gift, IMO. It
> makes more sense to get something that can be re-planted, so you can
> enjoy it for years.

Cut flowers aren't meant to be practical. They're meant to be pretty.
Sometimes they're meant to show that the giver is well enough off that every
decision doesn't have to be ruled by strict practicality. Even when the
whatever could be replanted, that doesn't necessarily mean that you could
enjoy flowers in the middle of winter, a time when some people might
appreciate them the most. And oh yeah, a good many flowers are annuals, and
even if replanted, wouldn't last beyond one season anyway.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: RodSpeed, how is gold doing in your neck of the woods?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/f2ad60336cac92ae?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 21 2007 3:13 pm
From: Dennis

On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 08:06:50 -0800 (PST), Quality_is_job_one
<kwokx2@hotmail.com> wrote:

>I think we should all start collecting copper. Not as valuable per ounce
>as gold, but has a huge market for a lot of folks and used in
>electrical and plumbing and cookware.

Not to mention ammunition.

Dennis (evil)
--
What government gives, it must first take away.

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http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/877cf890999019c5?hl=en
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TOPIC: Pond's vs Rite Aid
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/25ec786d4a77b5a5?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 21 2007 4:48 pm
From: James

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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Fashion Emporio Armani Replica Watches
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/9a25f69ab229816b?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 21 2007 5:37 pm
From: Wholesale Replica watches

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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Luxury Swiss Replica Watches
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/48bddffce69523d2?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 21 2007 5:37 pm
From: Wholesale Replica watches

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watches, Fake Watches and so on. brands like Rolex, Audemars Piguet,
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and get same as 100% original watches from our high quality and lowest
price of luxury Swiss Replica Watches. If you are watches
wholesalers,you could order from our online wholesale watches and if
you are personal watch wearing you may go to our online shop to chose
watch you like including luxury,fashion,classical Swiss Replica
Watches.

==============================================================================

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Google Groups: http://groups.google.com?hl=en

24 new messages in 7 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

* Will an oil-filled radiator save me money? - 8 messages, 4 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/f6eb6f9a24be546e?hl=en
* Debit card article in Reader's Digest - 6 messages, 4 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/30646f032f4ff9e6?hl=en
* RodSpeed, do you think major inflation is imminent globally? - 5 messages, 5
authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/07987411c86cacd3?hl=en
* web capable phones - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/848900c8eb438654?hl=en
* RodSpeed, how is gold doing in your neck of the woods? - 2 messages, 2
authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/f2ad60336cac92ae?hl=en
* More Selective reporting from Limbaugh - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/306db91f018962b9?hl=en
* Exploding television... - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/354f162529b27d4f?hl=en

== 1 of 8 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 21 2007 7:00 am
From: Joe

On Dec 21, 9:35 am, freeisbest

>
> At first reading, it appears that consulting with your local
> utilities company and also experiment in the real world are missing.
> We don't have enough information to be very helpful. For instance,
> are your house walls insulated? Do you have storm windows? Do you
> live in on a heavily forested north slope in Maine?

Yes I believe my walls are insulated yet there seems to have been some
obvious settling over the years? Can I blow in extra insulation? How
does that work? The house is located in lower CT. It gets cold but
rarely lower than the 20's although it can spend a whole month there.

I wasn't thinking I'd be able to turn off my oil heat, but maybe I
could lower it to the mid 50's at night and part of the day so it
cycles less, just wondering if anyone else has used oil heaters to
augment and save.

== 2 of 8 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 21 2007 7:19 am
From: "Lou"

"Joe" <joe5345@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:566833c7-3dc2-4d8d-8584-e179d4615977@p1g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
> On Dec 21, 6:32 am, Shawn Hirn <s...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> >
> > Impossible to say. Each person's house is unique. How warm do you prefer
> > your home to be?
>
> right now I'm wearing two fleece jackets, fleece pants and fleece
> socks just so I can keep my thermostat at 65
>
> How well insulated is your home?
> It's a 50 year old home that I bought last year. the Windows are 50
> years old and although there are no real breezes coming through I
> thinnk their full insulative properties went bye bye long ago. I've
> somewhat eliminated all the breezes coming from outlets and doors but
> the outside walls are still too cold to the touch for warm air to
> stick around too long. That combined with the cold windows seem to cut
> down on the residual heat circulation.
>
> How's the air
> > circulation?
>
> Not great. The upstairs is consistently colder than the downstairs by
> 2-3 degrees, that's why I'm thinking a space heater upstairs (2 rooms)
> would save me money because I wouldn't have to heat up the whole
> downstairs to stay warm at night.

My Dad grew up in a farmhouse in central Massachusetts in the 1920's. There
was no heat on the second floor where the bedrooms are, and he says he used
to sleep with the window open even in midwinter. I don't know how much of
that is hyperbole, but if you're cold at night, there are alternatives to
running the furnace.

The first is pyjamas. The next is a quilt on the bed. The next (my
favorite) is an electric blanket with a light cover over it to keep cold air
from seeping in at the edges. Combine your choice of these with a
programmable thermostat so that you don't get up to a freezing cold house in
the morning. The effect of cold windows can be mitigated with well fitted
shades and closeable curtains.

> The best way to find out is to try it. The cost of a couple
> > of good oil-filled space heaters is a lot less than $400, so give it a
> > try and see how it works out for you.
>
> $200? I've notices there are some well rated models in the $40-$70
> rannge. Should I stay away from going so cheap?
>

== 3 of 8 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 21 2007 7:30 am
From: Jeff

Joe wrote:
> On Dec 21, 6:32 am, Shawn Hirn <s...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> Impossible to say. Each person's house is unique. How warm do you prefer
>> your home to be?
>
> right now I'm wearing two fleece jackets, fleece pants and fleece
> socks just so I can keep my thermostat at 65
>
> How well insulated is your home?
> It's a 50 year old home that I bought last year. the Windows are 50
> years old and although there are no real breezes coming through I
> thinnk their full insulative properties went bye bye long ago.

Single pane windows never had much insulative properties. Seal any air
leaks you feel, whether with caulk or tape. If you don't need
transparency on a window consider a layer of bubble wrap. Otherwist
heatshrink. If you have money, storm windows.

And do what freeisbest has suggested.

If you have no insulation in the walls, put some in. Blown in
cellulose is cheap and very effective.

Now consider where all your heat is going out. It's going out big
time in any drafts. It's going out through your windows. It's going out
through your walls. It's going out through the ceiling and also through
the floor. Anywhere that the other side is colder than the inside heat
is travelling to.

A layer of bubble wrap or heatshrink (if you need transparency) will
cut the heat loss through your windows in half.

Blowing in cellulose in your walls will cut heat loss by 80% over
uninsulated walls. You'll need to drill 1" holes between every stud,
details are here:

<URL: http://www.cocooninsulation.com//>

Two people can insulate the walls in a house in two days.

You can not make an uninsulated house comfortable adding heat. Trust
me on that!

I live in a house built in 1920 with additions in 70's. Even in the
70's wall insulation was not used. I remember standing *over* my gas
floor heater and shivering. Now that I've insulated the walls and
insulated the windows I heat that same room with a electric radiator and
it is much more comfortable. One fifth the heat, five times the comfort
level.

BTW, radiant type heaters will work better in drafty rooms than
forced air. The heat from the forced air leaves with the drafts.

I've
> somewhat eliminated all the breezes coming from outlets and doors but
> the outside walls are still too cold to the touch for warm air to
> stick around too long. That combined with the cold windows seem to cut
> down on the residual heat circulation.
>
> How's the air
>> circulation?
>
> Not great. The upstairs is consistently colder than the downstairs by
> 2-3 degrees, that's why I'm thinking a space heater upstairs (2 rooms)
> would save me money because I wouldn't have to heat up the whole
> downstairs to stay warm at night.
> The best way to find out is to try it. The cost of a couple
>> of good oil-filled space heaters is a lot less than $400, so give it a
>> try and see how it works out for you.
>
> $200? I've notices there are some well rated models in the $40-$70
> rannge. Should I stay away from going so cheap?

My $35 Delonghi (from Lowes) work well and appear to be well rated.
My Soleous from Frys has had to have it's thermostat replaced.

Jeff
>

== 4 of 8 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 21 2007 7:57 am
From: Joe

On Dec 21, 10:30 am, Jeff <jeff@spam_me_not.com> wrote:

> I live in a house built in 1920 with additions in 70's. Even in the
> 70's wall insulation was not used. I remember standing *over* my gas
> floor heater and shivering. Now that I've insulated the walls and
> insulated the windows I heat that same room with a electric radiator and
> it is much more comfortable. One fifth the heat, five times the comfort
> level.
>

How can I tell by touch that my walls need more insulation? I thought
last year that my walls suffered from inadequate insulation but then I
felt the walls of my front hallway which are definitely not insulated
and they were freezing. My inside walls were just cold. But I've felt
the walls of newer houses and they were cold too, not as cold as mine
but still cold to the touch. I did some cursory research on blown in
insulation last year and I remember reading that it is only
recommended for use in uninsulated walls. Is that true?

== 5 of 8 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 21 2007 8:15 am
From: Jeff

Joe wrote:
> On Dec 21, 10:30 am, Jeff <jeff@spam_me_not.com> wrote:
>
>> I live in a house built in 1920 with additions in 70's. Even in the
>> 70's wall insulation was not used. I remember standing *over* my gas
>> floor heater and shivering. Now that I've insulated the walls and
>> insulated the windows I heat that same room with a electric radiator and
>> it is much more comfortable. One fifth the heat, five times the comfort
>> level.
>>
>
> How can I tell by touch that my walls need more insulation?

Chances are that you do not have any kind of blown in insulation in
the walls. That didn't exist 50 years ago. Hence no settling. You may
have settled insulation in the attic though. Blowing in insulation in
the attic is very easy.

You may have fiberglass batts, in which case you do nothing, or you
may have nothing.

Look in your walls. Take out an outlet box if need be and see what is
in there. It's hard to tell by touch, even with an IR thermometer it is
not always obvious what is uninsulated.

50 years ago adding a layer of fiberboard underneath the siding was
considered insulating your walls, trust me on this, it is not.

I thought
> last year that my walls suffered from inadequate insulation but then I
> felt the walls of my front hallway which are definitely not insulated
> and they were freezing. My inside walls were just cold. But I've felt
> the walls of newer houses and they were cold too, not as cold as mine
> but still cold to the touch.

Don't go by touch.

Jeff

I did some cursory research on blown in
> insulation last year and I remember reading that it is only
> recommended for use in uninsulated walls. Is that true?

== 6 of 8 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 21 2007 10:06 am
From: "Rod Speed"

Joe <joe5345@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Dec 21, 6:32 am, Shawn Hirn <s...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> Impossible to say. Each person's house is unique. How warm do you
>> prefer your home to be?
>
> right now I'm wearing two fleece jackets, fleece pants and fleece
> socks just so I can keep my thermostat at 65
>
> How well insulated is your home?
> It's a 50 year old home that I bought last year. the Windows are 50
> years old and although there are no real breezes coming through I
> thinnk their full insulative properties went bye bye long ago. I've
> somewhat eliminated all the breezes coming from outlets and doors but
> the outside walls are still too cold to the touch for warm air to
> stick around too long. That combined with the cold windows seem to cut
> down on the residual heat circulation.

>> How's the air circulation?

> Not great. The upstairs is consistently colder than the downstairs by
> 2-3 degrees, that's why I'm thinking a space heater upstairs (2 rooms)
> would save me money because I wouldn't have to heat up the whole
> downstairs to stay warm at night.

Makes a lot more sense to do the bed better for that.

> The best way to find out is to try it. The cost of a couple
>> of good oil-filled space heaters is a lot less than $400,
>> so give it a try and see how it works out for you.

> $200? I've notices there are some well rated models in the
> $40-$70 rannge. Should I stay away from going so cheap?

Makes a lot more sense to heat the bed with an electric pad etc.

== 7 of 8 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 21 2007 10:11 am
From: Joe

On Dec 21, 1:06 pm, "Rod Speed" <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote:
> Joe <joe5...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Dec 21, 6:32 am, Shawn Hirn <s...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> >> Impossible to say. Each person's house is unique. How warm do you
> >> prefer your home to be?
>
> > right now I'm wearing two fleece jackets, fleece pants and fleece
> > socks just so I can keep my thermostat at 65
>
> > How well insulated is your home?
> > It's a 50 year old home that I bought last year. the Windows are 50
> > years old and although there are no real breezes coming through I
> > thinnk their full insulative properties went bye bye long ago. I've
> > somewhat eliminated all the breezes coming from outlets and doors but
> > the outside walls are still too cold to the touch for warm air to
> > stick around too long. That combined with the cold windows seem to cut
> > down on the residual heat circulation.
> >> How's the air circulation?
> > Not great. The upstairs is consistently colder than the downstairs by
> > 2-3 degrees, that's why I'm thinking a space heater upstairs (2 rooms)
> > would save me money because I wouldn't have to heat up the whole
> > downstairs to stay warm at night.
>
> Makes a lot more sense to do the bed better for that.
>
> > The best way to find out is to try it. The cost of a couple
> >> of good oil-filled space heaters is a lot less than $400,
> >> so give it a try and see how it works out for you.
> > $200? I've notices there are some well rated models in the
> > $40-$70 rannge. Should I stay away from going so cheap?
>
> Makes a lot more sense to heat the bed with an electric pad etc.

Yeah well, I have a couple of children that have a penchant for
knocking their covers off in the middle of the night so I have to keep
the heat in the low sixties in case.

== 8 of 8 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 21 2007 10:47 am
From: "Rod Speed"

Joe <joe5345@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Dec 21, 1:06 pm, "Rod Speed" <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Joe <joe5...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Dec 21, 6:32 am, Shawn Hirn <s...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>>> Impossible to say. Each person's house is unique. How warm do you
>>>> prefer your home to be?
>>
>>> right now I'm wearing two fleece jackets, fleece pants and fleece
>>> socks just so I can keep my thermostat at 65
>>
>>> How well insulated is your home?
>>> It's a 50 year old home that I bought last year. the Windows are 50
>>> years old and although there are no real breezes coming through I
>>> thinnk their full insulative properties went bye bye long ago. I've
>>> somewhat eliminated all the breezes coming from outlets and doors
>>> but the outside walls are still too cold to the touch for warm air
>>> to stick around too long. That combined with the cold windows seem
>>> to cut down on the residual heat circulation.
>>>> How's the air circulation?
>>> Not great. The upstairs is consistently colder than the downstairs
>>> by 2-3 degrees, that's why I'm thinking a space heater upstairs (2
>>> rooms) would save me money because I wouldn't have to heat up the
>>> whole downstairs to stay warm at night.
>>
>> Makes a lot more sense to do the bed better for that.
>>
>>> The best way to find out is to try it. The cost of a couple
>>>> of good oil-filled space heaters is a lot less than $400,
>>>> so give it a try and see how it works out for you.
>>> $200? I've notices there are some well rated models in the
>>> $40-$70 rannge. Should I stay away from going so cheap?
>>
>> Makes a lot more sense to heat the bed with an electric pad etc.
>
> Yeah well, I have a couple of children that have a penchant for
> knocking their covers off in the middle of the night so I have to keep
> the heat in the low sixties in case.

Just do the covers better so that doesnt happen.

== 1 of 6 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 21 2007 7:03 am
From: George Grapman

Scott in SoCal wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Dec 2007 20:54:22 GMT, George Grapman
> <sfgeorge@paccbell.net> wrote:
>
>> Before opening my account I checked the rules on how my credit union
>> dealt with those issues.
>
> Rules which can (and often do) change at any time without notice.
>
> I hope you're keeping current with the little disclosure pamplets that
> they include with your statement every month. :)

My credit union spells everything out in clear, east to read type.

== 2 of 6 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 21 2007 7:06 am
From: George Grapman

Scott in SoCal wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Dec 2007 18:43:31 -0800, George Grapman
> <sfgeorge@paccbell.net> wrote:
>
>> Wonder if you also think it is abnormal to check my stocks a few times
>> a day.
>
> It is unless you're some kind of day-trader. Some of us invest for the
> long term, and don't need to look more than once a day.
>
> Schwab sends me a closing summary via email every day, and some days I
> don't even look at it.

I generally invest for the long term but one time I checked during
mid-day and saw an unusual drop on one stock. Further checking revealed
a major lawsuit. I sold and the stock continued to plummet. I lost money
but not as much as if I had waited until the end of the day.

== 3 of 6 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 21 2007 7:41 am
From: Scott in SoCal

On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 15:06:15 GMT, George Grapman
<sfgeorge@paccbell.net> wrote:

>Scott in SoCal wrote:
>> On Wed, 19 Dec 2007 18:43:31 -0800, George Grapman
>> <sfgeorge@paccbell.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Wonder if you also think it is abnormal to check my stocks a few times
>>> a day.
>>
>> It is unless you're some kind of day-trader. Some of us invest for the
>> long term, and don't need to look more than once a day.
>>
>> Schwab sends me a closing summary via email every day, and some days I
>> don't even look at it.
>
> I generally invest for the long term but one time I checked during
>mid-day and saw an unusual drop on one stock. Further checking revealed
>a major lawsuit. I sold and the stock continued to plummet. I lost money
>but not as much as if I had waited until the end of the day.

A stop-loss order would have saved you even more and you still
wouldn't have had to look at your stock prices more than once a day.

== 4 of 6 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 21 2007 8:13 am
From: email.is.ignored@gmail.com

On Dec 19, 2:31 pm, George Grapman <sfgeo...@paccbell.net> wrote:
> As I have already noted the one time I disputed adebitcard charge
> the funds were back in my account the next day. I can not address the
> policies of other financial institutions.

That's good that the bank did that, but the bank will not refund other
fees from the external companies from the bounced transactions. For
example, if you pay for your credit card and the transaction bounced,
the CC company will assess a bounced check fee. In addition, the
timing of the bounce may mean you don't make your payment in time,
thus incurring late fees and maybe finance charges. The same goes for
your mortgage payment, phone bill, etc. You may be able to contact
those companies and have the fees reversed, but that would be a hassle
to contact each individual company. Getting the money returned to
your bank account may just be the first step.

None of those negative situations happen with lost credit card. And a
lost PIN-only debit card will likely not be able to drain your
checking account.

A lot of the discussion in this thread is about debit vs. credit
cards, but the real discussion should be about credit-enabled debit
cards. Your financial risk from a credit-enabled debit card is so
much greater than a normal ATM card. So if debit cards are the right
choice for you, by all means continue using them, just contact your
bank and get a debit card which *always* requires PIN entry.

== 5 of 6 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 21 2007 8:50 am
From: SMS 斯蒂文* 夏

Shawn Hirn wrote:
> In article
> <e4e6c3e5-2b89-42c6-b1dd-854dc27f5cc1@c4g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
> "rick++" <rick303@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> The RD article is deceptive.
>> All the their debit cards I've been given have the same
>> protections as their credit card according the bank policy.
>> They are combo ATM-Debit Cards, which may be the reason.
>
> Right. I have two debit cards and the maximum exposure for me is $50 if
> either is lost or stolen. Still, I only use them for purchases at
> businesses I trust and have a long history of dealing with.

Right, this is actually federal protection, $50 if reported within two
days, much worse than credit card protection. Plus you lose all the
protections in the Fair Credit Billing Act, which the bank or credit
union can choose to offer (or at least claim that they offer), but they
have no legal requirement to duplicate these protections. Of course you
lose all the other benefits of paying with a credit card, versus cash,
check, or debit card, as well.

== 6 of 6 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 21 2007 8:52 am
From: SMS 斯蒂文* 夏

email.is.ignored@gmail.com wrote:

> A lot of the discussion in this thread is about debit vs. credit
> cards, but the real discussion should be about credit-enabled debit
> cards. Your financial risk from a credit-enabled debit card is so
> much greater than a normal ATM card. So if debit cards are the right
> choice for you, by all means continue using them, just contact your
> bank and get a debit card which *always* requires PIN entry.

That really is the key point. Readers Digest should have distinguished
between a PIN based ATM card, and debit card that can be used like a
credit card with only a signature (or no signature in many cases). You
want to avoid the latter at all costs, but the pin-based ATM card is
pretty safe.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: RodSpeed, do you think major inflation is imminent globally?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/07987411c86cacd3?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 21 2007 7:55 am
From: Quality_is_job_one

Trying to determine what is best to invest in. If inflation rampages,
then bonds will be useless. What is worth buying? Metals and
commodities? I am thinking real estate will sell off and sell off
drastically in the upcoming years. The question is, how do you get a
good cash flow from real estate? At this point, I am thinking the
global mantra will be all about cash flow and making payments on time
and keeping creditors from taking away assets for pennies on the
dollars. Thing is, I swear I think we have over capacity here in the
USA. Anything we want or need is obtainable rather easily if you think
about it. Whether you can hold on to it or find some one willing to
pay you more money for what you bought, well that is another question.

== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 21 2007 8:08 am
From: Just A User

Quality_is_job_one wrote:
> Trying to determine what is best to invest in. If inflation rampages,
> then bonds will be useless. What is worth buying? Metals and
> commodities? I am thinking real estate will sell off and sell off
> drastically in the upcoming years. The question is, how do you get a
> good cash flow from real estate? At this point, I am thinking the
> global mantra will be all about cash flow and making payments on time
> and keeping creditors from taking away assets for pennies on the
> dollars. Thing is, I swear I think we have over capacity here in the
> USA. Anything we want or need is obtainable rather easily if you think
> about it. Whether you can hold on to it or find some one willing to
> pay you more money for what you bought, well that is another question.

I HOPE you are not seeking serious financial advise from someone in a
usenet news group. And if you do take advise from someone, I hope that
it is backed up by a professional opinion and not just based on what
R.S. recommends.

== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 21 2007 8:32 am
From: clams casino

Just A User wrote:

> Quality_is_job_one wrote:
>
>> Trying to determine what is best to invest in. If inflation rampages,
>> then bonds will be useless. What is worth buying? Metals and
>> commodities? I am thinking real estate will sell off and sell off
>> drastically in the upcoming years. The question is, how do you get a
>> good cash flow from real estate? At this point, I am thinking the
>> global mantra will be all about cash flow and making payments on time
>> and keeping creditors from taking away assets for pennies on the
>> dollars. Thing is, I swear I think we have over capacity here in the
>> USA. Anything we want or need is obtainable rather easily if you think
>> about it. Whether you can hold on to it or find some one willing to
>> pay you more money for what you bought, well that is another question.
>
>
> I HOPE you are not seeking serious financial advise from someone in a
> usenet news group. And if you do take advise from someone, I hope that
> it is backed up by a professional opinion and not just based on what
> R.S. recommends.

but Rod Speed is the ultimate reverse advisor. He's most always on the
wrong side of every issue (98.73%).

== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 21 2007 10:02 am
From: "Rod Speed"

Depends on how you define major, but no, not
unless you have a very unusual definition of major.

Quality_is_job_one <kwokx2@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Trying to determine what is best to invest in. If inflation rampages,

That isnt going to happen.

> then bonds will be useless. What is worth buying? Metals and commodities?

Nope, having your money where inflation isnt rampaging.

Thats what those in places like South America and Zimbabwe
do. They're the only ones that see rampaging inflation anymore.

> I am thinking real estate will sell off and sell off drastically in the upcoming years.

I dont believe that in the modern first world except in citys that
end up ghost towns because their single industry evaporates.

> The question is, how do you get a good cash flow from real estate?

Usual way, decide which areas are going to benefit from what you think will happen
in the future. Real estate isnt anything like as flexible as most other areas tho.

> At this point, I am thinking the global mantra will be all
> about cash flow and making payments on time and keeping
> creditors from taking away assets for pennies on the dollars.

Just avoid those industrys that can get into that situation.

> Thing is, I swear I think we have over capacity here in the USA.

Only in houses. Yes, due to the sub prime fiasco that will be true for a while.

> Anything we want or need is obtainable rather easily if you think about it.

Some things arent like the entire populace eating sensibly.

> Whether you can hold on to it or find some one willing to pay you
> more money for what you bought, well that is another question.

Corse you always can, even in a recession. Its just harder then.

== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 21 2007 10:44 am
From: "** Frank **"

"Quality_is_job_one" <kwokx2@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:23a4ac4b-c5f4-4725-bb31-b53972680566@b1g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
> Trying to determine what is best to invest in. If inflation rampages,
> then bonds will be useless. What is worth buying? Metals and
> commodities? I am thinking real estate will sell off and sell off
> drastically in the upcoming years. The question is, how do you get a
> good cash flow from real estate? At this point, I am thinking the
> global mantra will be all about cash flow and making payments on time
> and keeping creditors from taking away assets for pennies on the
> dollars. Thing is, I swear I think we have over capacity here in the
> USA. Anything we want or need is obtainable rather easily if you think
> about it. Whether you can hold on to it or find some one willing to
> pay you more money for what you bought, well that is another question.

The best to invest in is dumb luck - only if I know how to do that
consistently. Dumb luck getting AAPL at $17, sold some today at $192. I
guess that makes up for WorldCom and some of the $100 high tech stocks I got
into during 1999-2000 and riding it down to penny stocks. Everything so
clear looking backwards.

I'm overweight in real estate and I'm getting out of it, not because its in
a down market, but I'm too tired doing the three "T" thing - tenants,
toilets and trash. Been through a few cycles before, and it looks like a
good real estate buying opportunity between now and the next couple of years
for the long term. I think you could double your money in about four years
if you buy right, i.e., 50% foreclosure discount. Cash flow should be good
as the rental market has gone up.

CNBC has been talking about China, Russia and India - Brazil is doing pretty
good too. But I feel more comfortable with US companies with foreign
components.

2008 would be another crazy and volatile year, best of luck to you.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: web capable phones
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/848900c8eb438654?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 21 2007 7:57 am
From: Jeff

Shawn Hirn wrote:
> In article <13mlt9eausu6388@corp.supernews.com>,
> Jeff <jeff@spam_me_not.com> wrote:
>
>> I'll be changing my cellphone service sometime in the near future.
>> I've switched jobs and will not be travelling, so I'm thinking of Metro
>> PCS (not a great service but cheap).
>>
>> I'm thinking of getting a phone with some web capability. Here is
>> their list:
>>
>> <URL: http://www.metropcs.com/phones/ />
>>
>> Anyone have any experience with any of these?
>>
>> Jeff
>
> What's your budget?

The budget is not much.

Where do you intend to use the phone most? Why do
> you need a web enabled cell phone? Have you considered A&T and an
> iPhone, or a Blackberry from Verizon or Cingular?

Those are out of my reach. It's the cost of the repetitive service
more that the cost of the phone.

I don't need great web phone capability. But if it lousy than I will
do without. I know what an iphone looks like, I know what a blackberry
looks like. I do not know what any of these second or third tier phones
do on a second tier system.

I'm more or less unemployed since two days ago and do not want to
spend $100+/month. You may love your AT&T iphone, I can not afford it
now. I need about 1800 minutes/month, with most of the services you
mention that is $100 without web access. At metro pcs that is $45 for
unlimited, that is good enough for me now and if the web phone is not a
joke then I will spend the extra money *once* for the phone, else I will
buy a cheaper phone.

Jeff

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 21 2007 8:06 am
From: Quality_is_job_one

On Dec 20, 3:44 pm, "Rod Speed" <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote:
> Quality_is_job_one <kwo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >http://www.lvrj.com/news/9893062.html
>
> Nothing special.

I find it interesting that gold is treated so bi-polarly. I think it
useless save industrial/technical applications but people around the
world have been drawn to it because of its luster and symbolism. I
think we should all start collecting copper. Not as valuable per ounce
as gold, but has a huge market for a lot of folks and used in
electrical and plumbing and cookware.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 21 2007 10:15 am
From: "Rod Speed"

Quality_is_job_one <kwokx2@hotmail.com> wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote
>> Quality_is_job_one <kwo...@hotmail.com> wrote

>>> http://www.lvrj.com/news/9893062.html

>> Nothing special.

> I find it interesting that gold is treated so bi-polarly.

Only by a tiny minority. Anyone who understands
the basics just treats it like any other commodity that
sometimes has some advantages and often doesnt.

> I think it useless save industrial/technical applications but people around
> the world have been drawn to it because of its luster and symbolism.

Its not that so much as it has real advantages when the political system
is so completely off the rails that the currency is a complete dud.

Its also much more portable if you are a refugee on a small boat
leaving SE Asia etc from a country where you cant use the usual
ways of moving your savings out of that country as you leave etc.

> I think we should all start collecting copper.

Its never worth collecting any commodity now. People like us are
in a situation were we dont need to collect any commodity anymore.

> Not as valuable per ounce as gold, but has a huge market for
> a lot of folks and used in electrical and plumbing and cookware.

Thats not what determines the value of any commodity.
Its always the supply/demand that matters.

The world economy aint gunna collapse, you watch.

The US economy isnt going to either.

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 21 2007 9:18 am
From: George Grapman

Opens the show by talking about the increase in consumer spending.
Omits these details:

Consumer confidence at its lowest in three years (when it goes up
Limbaugh boasts about while ignoring the general downward trend, when it
drops he ignores it).

Retail sales dropped for the third straight week.

Inflation exceeds the Feds "comfort level" for inflation.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Exploding television...
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/354f162529b27d4f?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 21 2007 10:16 am
From: "Rod Speed"

PaPaPeng <PaPaPeng@yahoo.com> wrote

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25 new messages in 14 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 21 2007 12:13 am
From: Jeff

Joe wrote:
> I'm running through around 132 gallons of oil per month in my 1300 sq
> ft Cape Cod house. At $3 per gallon that's $400 to heat my house! I've
> been reading about oil filled radiators and I read one person's acct
> that he was using it to heat a 600 sq foot area and it only cost him
> 10kwh a day. At my extremely high electricity rate of .22/kwh I would
> seemingly still be saving a ton to heat my house if I bought two of
> these heaters and ran them all day. ($66x2=$132.) Is that possible?
> What am I missing?

The calculation

If 1 gallon of heating oil has 139,000 BTU and your furnace is 880%
efficient then you are getting 111,000 BTU heat per gallon. That's
37,000 BTU/$

For electricity you get 3340 BTU/kWh One dollar buys you 15,181 BTU,
more than twice the cost of your oil.

Now, electric heaters are great for spot heating, if you can turn
down the heat elsewhere it may work out for you.

With all things heating, insulate, cover your windows and eliminate
any air leaks.

Jeff

== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 21 2007 3:32 am
From: Shawn Hirn

In article
<fcf54fe3-975b-44e5-ad3b-12942a8c4171@d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
Joe <joe5345@gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm running through around 132 gallons of oil per month in my 1300 sq
> ft Cape Cod house. At $3 per gallon that's $400 to heat my house! I've
> been reading about oil filled radiators and I read one person's acct
> that he was using it to heat a 600 sq foot area and it only cost him
> 10kwh a day. At my extremely high electricity rate of .22/kwh I would
> seemingly still be saving a ton to heat my house if I bought two of
> these heaters and ran them all day. ($66x2=$132.) Is that possible?
> What am I missing?

Impossible to say. Each person's house is unique. How warm do you prefer
your home to be? How well insulated is your home? How's the air
circulation? The best way to find out is to try it. The cost of a couple
of good oil-filled space heaters is a lot less than $400, so give it a
try and see how it works out for you.

== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 21 2007 6:21 am
From: Joe

On Dec 21, 6:32 am, Shawn Hirn <s...@comcast.net> wrote:

>
> Impossible to say. Each person's house is unique. How warm do you prefer
> your home to be?

right now I'm wearing two fleece jackets, fleece pants and fleece
socks just so I can keep my thermostat at 65

How well insulated is your home?
It's a 50 year old home that I bought last year. the Windows are 50
years old and although there are no real breezes coming through I
thinnk their full insulative properties went bye bye long ago. I've
somewhat eliminated all the breezes coming from outlets and doors but
the outside walls are still too cold to the touch for warm air to
stick around too long. That combined with the cold windows seem to cut
down on the residual heat circulation.

How's the air
> circulation?

Not great. The upstairs is consistently colder than the downstairs by
2-3 degrees, that's why I'm thinking a space heater upstairs (2 rooms)
would save me money because I wouldn't have to heat up the whole
downstairs to stay warm at night.
The best way to find out is to try it. The cost of a couple
> of good oil-filled space heaters is a lot less than $400, so give it a
> try and see how it works out for you.

$200? I've notices there are some well rated models in the $40-$70
rannge. Should I stay away from going so cheap?

== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 21 2007 6:35 am
From: freeisbest

On Dec 21, 2:05 am, Joe <joe5...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm running through around 132 gallons of oil per month in my 1300 sq
> ft Cape Cod house.

If you live alone, have more than one thermostat, and have sliding
glass doors anywhere, I imagine you've already moved your winter
quarters to the easiy-to-heat part of the house, and turned down the
thermostats on the heat-wasting rooms. So that's done.

> At $3 per gallon that's $400 to heat my house! I've
> been reading about oil filled radiators and I read one person's acct
> that he was using it to heat a 600 sq foot area and it only cost him
> 10kwh a day. At my extremely high electricity rate of .22/kwh I would
> seemingly still be saving a ton to heat my house if I bought two of
> these heaters and ran them all day. ($66x2=$132.) Is that possible?
> What am I missing?

At first reading, it appears that consulting with your local
utilities company and also experiment in the real world are missing.
We don't have enough information to be very helpful. For instance,
are your house walls insulated? Do you have storm windows? Do you
live in on a heavily forested north slope in Maine?
When we used two oil-fired radiatiors some years ago (in NC), we
found that any kind of blown-in or pumped-in wall insulation saves on
your heat bill by as much as 50%.
When we used two oil-fired radiators some years ago (in NC), they
added some heat to a room already at least moderately heated by other
means, but there was no way the ones we had could have heated an
ordinary room, let alone a whole house.

== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 21 2007 6:57 am
From: clams casino

Joe wrote:

>On Dec 21, 6:32 am, Shawn Hirn <s...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>>Impossible to say. Each person's house is unique. How warm do you prefer
>>your home to be?
>>
>>
>
>right now I'm wearing two fleece jackets, fleece pants and fleece
>socks just so I can keep my thermostat at 65
>
>

I'm in a short sleeve T shirt - 66F - very well insulated (2x6
construction).

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== 1 of 1 ==
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== 1 of 1 ==
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== 1 of 1 ==
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== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 21 2007 3:32 am
From: clams casino

Marsha wrote:

>
> I'll admit my thinking processes are not normal, but if more people
> want live trees than what are planted, won't the demand eventually
> exceed supply? For example, if you have a tree farm with 100 trees
> and 50 people take trees, you re-plant 50 trees. The next year, you
> only have 50 trees to offer because it's going to take years for your
> newly-planted trees to develop, but 50 or more people want your trees,
> well you eventually won't have any trees ready. I'm really trying to
> understand this processs, honestly.
>
> Marsha/Ohio
>

Hint - DON'T attempt to start any businesses.

== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 21 2007 3:35 am
From: clams casino

Marsha wrote:

> Derald wrote:
>
>> Marsha <mas@xeb.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> I'm really trying to understand this processs, honestly.
>>
>>
>> Well, exactly what parts of demand, supply and price elude you?
>
>
> Oh, stop it. If demand outpaces supply, then you will eventually run
> out, right? You have 100 trees and 50 get cut down. You can only
> replace the 50 that were cut down. These 50 will not be mature for
> years. I really do need someone to explain this to me in simple English.
>
> Marsha/Ohio
>
For a start, one does not have all their trees of the same age.

== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 21 2007 5:16 am
From: "Chloe"

"Marsha" <mas@xeb.net> wrote in message news:fkf94c$eic$1@news.datemas.de...
>
> I'll admit my thinking processes are not normal, but if more people want
> live trees than what are planted, won't the demand eventually exceed
> supply?

Yes, and if fewer people want live trees than what are planted, the supply
will exceed the demand. I recall more than once driving by tree farms here
in the Midwest where there are fields and fields full of trees that have
obviously matured past the point of being practical to harvest. I think it's
a good bet they were not harvested in order to avoid glutting the market and
driving the price down.

Sorry, but this is a tough one to try to make into a major environmental
issue.

== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 21 2007 6:11 am
From: max

In article <fkf8r1$eal$1@news.datemas.de>, Marsha <mas@xeb.net> wrote:

> max wrote:
> >>>On Mon, 17 Dec 2007 21:04:47 -0500, Marsha <mas@xeb.net> wrote:
> >>I'm all for helping support small farmers, but correct me if this is
> >>wrong. New trees can't grow as fast as the old ones are cut down, right?
> >>
> >>Marsha/Ohio
> >
> > Correct, you are wrong. You need to read up on sustainable
> > silvaculture, and forrestry. Hell, you're posting from a german
> > server, which suggests you're in germany. A german should know better.
>
> Apparently you have a reading comprehension problem (see signature
> line). You might want to check out datemas.de, which is a free
> newsgroup server for anyone, even subhumans, including you.

Marsha, Marsha, Marsha...

are you in mensa? Go to a lot of science fiction conventions? how's
the clutter management going? Got those newspapers lined up in nice
little canyons?

>
> Marsha/Ohio

is that what that meant? oh. I stopped reading after the body of your
text, Marsha. Of course, you're arguing with a garden gnome, so what do
you expect?

Ok, Marsha, Christmas trees have been a sustainable production business
in this country (the united states, which is where you live) for at
least two to three generations.

You might want to read up on sustainable forrestry and silvaculture.
Stop being such an ignorant American. All domestically harvested forest
products are sustainably harvested, to the 99% level, if for no other
reason than there isn't any (significant) old-growth left.

I'm surprised at your ignorance, Marsha. Clearly, you're a product of
the American education system, and everything we've come to expect from
modern American pedagogical techniques.

I just wonder, are you innumerate, of just can't think very well?

.max

--
The part of betatron @ earthlink . net was played by a garden gnome

== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 21 2007 6:24 am
From: barbie gee

On Fri, 21 Dec 2007, Chloe wrote:

> "Marsha" <mas@xeb.net> wrote in message news:fkf94c$eic$1@news.datemas.de...
>>
>> I'll admit my thinking processes are not normal, but if more people want
>> live trees than what are planted, won't the demand eventually exceed
>> supply?
>
> Yes, and if fewer people want live trees than what are planted, the supply
> will exceed the demand. I recall more than once driving by tree farms here
> in the Midwest where there are fields and fields full of trees that have
> obviously matured past the point of being practical to harvest. I think it's
> a good bet they were not harvested in order to avoid glutting the market and
> driving the price down.

and, I've yet to see a tree lot "sell out", and I live in a major
metropolis, not a podunk with a limited market. Maybe those last trees
are rejects, but they remain unsold, whatever the reason.

Marsha's thinking is painfully linear. There are the different varieties
of trees, trees of different sizes (meaning ages) and so forth. There is
NOT simple cut one-replace one system going on here.

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 21 2007 3:36 am
From: Shawn Hirn

In article <13mlt9eausu6388@corp.supernews.com>,
Jeff <jeff@spam_me_not.com> wrote:

> I'll be changing my cellphone service sometime in the near future.
> I've switched jobs and will not be travelling, so I'm thinking of Metro
> PCS (not a great service but cheap).
>
> I'm thinking of getting a phone with some web capability. Here is
> their list:
>
> <URL: http://www.metropcs.com/phones/ />
>
> Anyone have any experience with any of these?
>
> Jeff

What's your budget? Where do you intend to use the phone most? Why do
you need a web enabled cell phone? Have you considered A&T and an
iPhone, or a Blackberry from Verizon or Cingular?

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 21 2007 3:36 am
From: Shawn Hirn

In article <13mmslj8h7h2n98@corp.supernews.com>,
Jeff <jeff@spam_me_not.com> wrote:

> jdoe wrote:
> > On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 18:05:15 -0500, Jeff <jeff@spam_me_not.com> wrote:
> >
> >> I'll be changing my cellphone service sometime in the near future.
> >> I've switched jobs and will not be travelling, so I'm thinking of Metro
> >> PCS (not a great service but cheap).
> >>
> >> I'm thinking of getting a phone with some web capability. Here is
> >> their list:
> >>
> >> <URL: http://www.metropcs.com/phones/ />
> >>
> >> Anyone have any experience with any of these?
> >>
> >> Jeff
> > afaik the iphone has the best web capabilities
>
> Yes, but if I bought an iphone I wouldn't be frugal!

Frugal has nothing to do with price; its more to do with value; what you
get for your money.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 21 2007 4:58 am
From: jdoe

On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 03:00:49 -0500, Jeff <jeff@spam_me_not.com> wrote:

>jdoe wrote:
>> On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 18:05:15 -0500, Jeff <jeff@spam_me_not.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I'll be changing my cellphone service sometime in the near future.
>>> I've switched jobs and will not be travelling, so I'm thinking of Metro
>>> PCS (not a great service but cheap).
>>>
>>> I'm thinking of getting a phone with some web capability. Here is
>>> their list:
>>>
>>> <URL: http://www.metropcs.com/phones/ />
>>>
>>> Anyone have any experience with any of these?
>>>
>>> Jeff
>> afaik the iphone has the best web capabilities
>
> Yes, but if I bought an iphone I wouldn't be frugal!

frugal is not about being cheap or getting things cheap, it's about
getting things you need to do a job at the least possible cost.
There isn't a tool out there that is cheaper or does a better job as a
mobile web browser and cell phone, so buying it might be considered a
frugal purchase, ymmv
__________________________________________
Never argue with an idiot.
They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Supply NIKE running shoes, basketball shoes super
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/61c38e3e5c141052?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 21 2007 3:39 am
From: Shawn Hirn

In article
<e4e6c3e5-2b89-42c6-b1dd-854dc27f5cc1@c4g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
"rick++" <rick303@hotmail.com> wrote:

> The RD article is deceptive.
> All the their debit cards I've been given have the same
> protections as their credit card according the bank policy.
> They are combo ATM-Debit Cards, which may be the reason.

Right. I have two debit cards and the maximum exposure for me is $50 if
either is lost or stolen. Still, I only use them for purchases at
businesses I trust and have a long history of dealing with.

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 21 2007 3:47 am
From: PaPaPeng

On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 13:48:09 +1100, "Rod Speed"
<rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:

>PaPaPeng <PaPaPeng@yahoo.com> wrote
>
><reams of your desperate attempts at puerile racist insults that
>any 2 year old could leave for dead flushed where they belong>
>

You could have saved yourself a lot of trouble by saying "Uncle."

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== 1 of 1 ==
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== 1 of 1 ==
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Friday, December 21, 2007

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