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Today's topics:
* MAKE MONEY AS SEEN IN THE MEDIA! - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/46a23e78cc3356ac?hl=en
* Where did the 400 billion USD in subprime mortgage losses go - 9 messages, 7
authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/4b5ad94e9eb8e056?hl=en
* Just for Kids bySantaShop.com - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/1f21874a08045c2d?hl=en
* Arab and Asian Indian Stores And The Risks They Encounter - 2 messages, 1
author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/1dfdeb9e8ca8dc31?hl=en
* China Cheap Wholesale Discount Gucci Sneakers & Handbag, Nike Jordan
Sneakers Adidas NBA Shoes Smith Shoes Dior Shoes Dirk Bikkembergs - 1 messages,
1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/de5095fdfb0e6b44?hl=en
* china discount wholesale air max ,AF1,ari jordans, nike dunk, women shoes,
gucci purses,handbag,T-shirt, boots,juicy, coat,MP3,PS2 PS3 Nokia N95,LV Bape
Sta Children Shoes D&G Shoes Evisu Shoes Ice Cream Shoes,Sneakers, women shoes
- 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/b679f43e3943d1a7?hl=en
* buy shop price air nike jordan adidas www.netfashion2008.cn - 1 messages, 1
author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/eb1473df71fda485?hl=en
* ########### WONTERFUL SEX STILL BOObS SEX VIDEO FREE ##ENJOY########## - 1
messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/d24c35568849415f?hl=en
* Supply basketball shoe, football shoes, clothes, hat and so on - 1 messages,
1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/d33ae188f00eb708?hl=en
* Free Arthritis Today Magazine - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/68f45b41246ab842?hl=en
* 11% inflation - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/305989c06e5c1309?hl=en
* Happy Thanksgiving MCFL - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/6eb202bfcb25db33?hl=en
* >>>>> Make BILLIONS Online Without Investment <<<<<< - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/0855440dc496ea6a?hl=en
* Bush To Let Illegal Aliens Get $40 Digital TV Coupons - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/f941e4a655a77d3f?hl=en
* Antique Photo Gallery - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/8cba3b21286a68bf?hl=en
==============================================================================
TOPIC: MAKE MONEY AS SEEN IN THE MEDIA!
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/46a23e78cc3356ac?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Nov 21 2007 11:13 am
From: heathernherrig
As Seen On OPRAH & 20/20 - TURN $6 into $24,600!
Earn money using PAYPAL as seen on Oprah & 20/20.
THE PAYPAL $6 MONEY-MAKING METHOD
AS SEEN ON OPRAH EARNS HUGE $$$$$$$$!
All you need is:
1) An email address
2) A PayPal account
3) $6.00
THIS IS A 2007, CURRENT EMAIL LIST
Ever since the internet became popular, the word "scam" has become a
daily term. I have never once tried any money making "system" outside
of this because of that very reason. However, after reading reports
on the validity and reputation of this money making system (seen on
Oprah, CNN, and other media forums) I decided to give this one a
shot...
especially since the so called "risk" is only $6.00. I mean, for the
chance, what a joke right? Anyway, only hours after implementing this
exact system I about fell out of my chair as money ACTUALLY started
rolling in. I couldn't believe it and for that reason, I wrote this
intro and became a believer in this system.
WHAT IS IT?
The idea is that of a system that takes advantage of the power of
compounding. And in a big way, let me tell you. First and foremost
understand that there are countless spin-offs of this system that try
to make a "quick buck"
off of people. Long lists, the 5 & 10 dollar trees, the birthday
systems,
etc...Those spin-offs do make money because of the ease of
implementation
of the idea, but they do NOT use the compounding advantage. This
system
is THE legit and profitable one. Here is how it works... There is a
list of 6 email addresses (you'll see it as you read further). Each
of these people has already taken part in this system. When someone
new
comes along (such as yourself) he/she removes #1 off of the list,
moves the other five email addresses up one position (i.e. #6 goes to
#5,
#5 to #4, etc.), and places their PayPal email address in the #6
position. This process is what develops the power of compounding. The
bottom
line is this... Honesty and Integrity creates Profitability. Following
this EXACT process is what creates the money, and that is why this
system
has been raved about in the media. Altering the system creates weak
results. The legality of this system comes from the idea that you are
of course creating a mailing list, and a "service" is being provided
(more on that later.) Now on to how your $6.00 creates BIG money...
INSTRUCTIONS:
STEP 1:
The first thing to do is highlight and SAVE this entire post in word
or notepad on your computer so you can come back to it later.
After that, if you are not already a PayPal user you need to go to
the PayPal website at 1. https://www.paypal.com/au/mrb/pal=CW4RHQW7BQJKC
and
SIGN UP. If you want to be able to receive credit card payments from
other people then you will need to sign up for a PREMIER or BUSINESS
account (not just a PERSONAL
account). This is highly recommended to allow others easy payment
options. In order to place the initial $6 into your account, you will
have to verify your bank account with PAYPAL (which may take a few
days). PAYPAL is 100% secure and is used by millions of people
worldwide.
STEP 2:
Here is where the action occurs. The first thing to do is to send a
$1.00 payment to each of the 6 email addresses on the current list
from
your PayPal account. To do this quickly and successfully, follow
these
simple steps:
1. Login to PayPal and click on the "Send Money" tab near the top of
the screen
2. In the "Recipient's Email" field enter the email address
3. In the "Amount" field enter "1" (This is your $1.00 payment)
4. In the "Category" field select "Service" (Keeping it legal)
5. In the "Subject" field type "EMAIL LIST", and in the "NOTE" field
enter "PLEASE PUT ME ON YOUR EMAIL LIST". By doing this, you are
creating a service and maintaining the legality of the system by
"paying" for the service.
6. Finally, click on the "Continue" button to complete the payment.
Repeat these steps for each of the 6 email addresses. That's it! By
sending the $1.00 payment to each address, you are implementing the
compounding POWER of the system. You will reap what you sow!
Here is the current e-mail list:
*************************************************
The email list:
1)veemarti...@gmail.com
2) cor...@bigpond.net.au
3) apriladela...@yahoo.com
4) smudger...@hotmail.co.uk
5) gregory886i@yahoo.com
6) heathernherrig@yahoo.com
2.
3. ************************************************
STEP 2:
Now take the #1 email off of the list that you see above (from your
saved file), move the other addresses up (6 becomes 5, 5 becomes 4,
etc.) and add YOUR email address (the one used for your PayPal
account)
as number 6 on the list. This is the only part of the document that
should be changed. ** Make sure your email address is the one you
have
registered with PayPal **STEP 3:
Post your amended article to at least 200 newsgroups or message
boards.
Keep in mind that there are tens of thousands of groups online! All
you
need is 200, but remember the more you post the more money you make -
as well as everyone else on the list! I've began to see money roll in
before I even hit 100 posts, but try to hit around 200 to allow
maximum exposure. Use Netscape, Internet Explorer, Firefox, Safari,
or
whatever your internet browser is to search for various news groups,
on-line forums, message boards, bulletin boards, chat sites,
discussions, discussion groups, on-line communities, etc. For
example,
log on to any search engine like yahoo.com or google.com and type in
a
subject like 'MILLIONAIRE MESSAGE BOARD', 'MONEY MAKING DISCUSSIONS',
'MONEY MAKING FORUMS', or 'BUSINESS MESSAGE BOARD', etc. You will
find
thousands and thousands of message boards. Click them one by one and
you will find the option to post a new message. Fill in the subject
which will be the header that everyone sees as they scroll through
the
list of postings in a particular group, and post the article with the
NEW list of email addresses included. THAT'S IT!!! All you have to do
is jump to different newsgroups and post away. After you get the hang
of it, it will take about 30 seconds for each newsgroup.
HOW THE MONEY WORKS:
When you post 200 messages in various forums, it is estimated that at
LEAST 15 people will respond and send you a $1.00 ($15.00). Those 15
will Post 200 Posts each and 225 people send you $1.00 ($225.00),
etc.
through 6 levels of email addresses. For comprehension purposes, here
is an easy viewing chart:
1) 15(1) = 15 people ($1) = $15
2) 15(15) = 225 people ($1) = $225
3) 15(225) = 3375 people ($1) = $3375
4) 15(3375) = 50625 people ($1) = $50625
5) 15(50625) = 759375 people ($1) = $759375
As you can see, your $6.00 has multiplied exponentially. What other
opportunity that is as simple as this can cash in the way this can?!
I'm not going to say this is going to make everyone over $800,000,
but
within a few WEEKS you begin to see results, thanks to the speed of
the
internet!
When your name is no longer on the list, take the latest posting inthe
newsgroups and begin the process again. Simply amazing...
One other tip to speed up the process even more:
You can send out your amended post (after you complete the process
and
add your PAYPAL email address to the list) to the contacts you
already
have in YOUR email address book! It is AMAZING how fast this works.
Be
cautious though with your emailing (don't spam hundreds of people you
don't know). Combine this idea with the steps above to MAXIMIZE your
profits. I can't stress enough how this system works wonders. There
is
something to be said when an idea is internationally publicized, just
make sure you take advantage of it (especially for only $6.00!)
Follow the system as described, and enjoy your PROFITS!!!
REMEMBER... HONESTY AND INTEGRITY = PROFITABILITY
YOUR NAME COULD CYCLE FOR A LONG TIME! THIS MAKES IT THE GIFT THAT
KEEPS ON GIVING.
This is excellent seed money to start or expand a business, buy your
dream home, car and pay off whatever bills you may have. Good luck!
HOW TO POST TO NEWS GROUPS?
Use Netscape or Internet Explorer and try searching for various
newsgroups (on-line forums, message boards, chat sites, discussions.)
Log on any search engine like yahoo.com, google.com, altavista.com,
excite.com, etc., then search with the subject "millionaire message
board; or; money making message board; or; employment message board;
or making discussions; or ''money making forum; or; business message
board; etc. You will find thousands & thousands of message boards.
Click on them one by one and you will find
the option 'post a new message'. Then Post this article as a 'new
message' by highlighting the text of this letter and selecting copy
then paste from the edit menu. Fill in the Subject, this will be the
header that everyone sees as they scroll through the list of postings
in a particular group, click the post message button. You're done
with
your first one! It only takes about 60 seconds to complete postings
on
message boards after you catch on.
REMEMBER, THE MORE NEWSGROUPS YOU POST IN, THE MORE MONEY YOU WILL
MAKE!!
GOOD LUCK!!!!
2)************************************************
STEP 2:
Now take the #1 email off of the list that you see above (from your
saved file), move the other addresses up (6 becomes 5, 5 becomes
4,etc.) and add YOUR email address (the one used for your PayPal
account)
as number 6 on the list. This is the only part of the document that
should be changed. ** Make sure your email address is the one you
have
registered with PayPal **
STEP 3:
Post your amended article to at least 200 newsgroups or message
boards.
Keep in mind that there are tens of thousands of groups online! All
you
need is 200, but remember the more you post the more money you make -
as well as everyone else on the list! I've began to see money roll in
before I even hit 100 posts, but try to hit around 200 to allow
maximum exposure. Use Netscape, Internet Explorer, Firefox, Safari,
or
whatever your internet browser is to search for various news groups,
on-line forums, message boards, bulletin boards, chat sites,
discussions, discussion groups, on-line communities, etc. For
example,
log on to any search engine like yahoo.com or google.com and type in
a
subject like 'MILLIONAIRE MESSAGE BOARD', 'MONEY MAKING DISCUSSIONS',
'MONEY MAKING FORUMS', or 'BUSINESS MESSAGE BOARD', etc. You will
find
thousands and thousands of message boards. Click them one by one and
you will find the option to post a new message. Fill in the subject
which will be the header that everyone sees as they scroll through
the
list of postings in a particular group, and post the article with the
NEW list of email addresses included. THAT'S IT!!! All you have to do
is jump to different newsgroups and post away. After you get the hang
of it, it will take about 30 seconds for each newsgroup.
HOW THE MONEY WORKS:
When you post 200 messages in various forums, it is estimated that at
LEAST 15 people will respond and send you a $1.00 ($15.00). Those 15
will Post 200 Posts each and 225 people send you $1.00 ($225.00),
etc.
through 6 levels of email addresses. For comprehension purposes, here
is an easy viewing chart:
1) 15(1) = 15 people ($1) = $15
2) 15(15) = 225 people ($1) = $225
3) 15(225) = 3375 people ($1) = $3375
4) 15(3375) = 50625 people ($1) = $50625
5) 15(50625) = 759375 people ($1) = $759375
As you can see, your $6.00 has multiplied exponentially. What other
opportunity that is as simple as this can cash in the way this can?!
I'm not going to say this is going to make everyone over $800,000,
but
within a few WEEKS you begin to see results, thanks to the speed of
the
internet!
When your name is no longer on the list, take the latest posting in
the
newsgroups and begin the process again. Simply amazing...
One other tip to speed up the process even more:
You can send out your amended post (after you complete the process
and
add your PAYPAL email address to the list) to the contacts you
already
have in YOUR email address book! It is AMAZING how fast this works.
Be
cautious though with your emailing (don't spam hundreds of people you
don't know). Combine this idea with the steps above to MAXIMIZE your
profits. I can't stress enough how this system works wonders. There
is
something to be said when an idea is internationally publicized, just
make sure you take advantage of it (especially for only $6.00!)
Follow the system as described, and enjoy your PROFITS!!!
REMEMBER... HONESTY AND INTEGRITY = PROFITABILITY
YOUR NAME COULD CYCLE FOR A LONG TIME! THIS MAKES IT THE GIFT THAT
KEEPS ON GIVING.
This is excellent seed money to start or expand a business, buy your
dream home, car and pay off whatever bills you may have. Good luck!
HOW TO POST TO NEWS GROUPS?
Use Netscape or Internet Explorer and try searching for various
newsgroups (on-line forums, message boards, chat sites, discussions.)
Log on any search engine like yahoo.com, google.com, altavista.com,
excite.com, etc., then search with the subject "millionaire message
board; or; money making message board; or; employment message board;
or making discussions; or ''money making forum; or; business message
board; etc. You will find thousands & thousands of message boards.
Click on them one by one and you will find
the option 'post a new message'. Then Post this article as a 'new
message' by highlighting the text of this letter and selecting copy
then paste from the edit menu. Fill in the Subject, this will be the
header that everyone sees as they scroll through the list of postings
in a particular group, click the post message button. You're done
with
your first one! It only takes about 60 seconds to complete postings
on
message boards after you catch on.
REMEMBER, THE MORE NEWSGROUPS YOU POST IN, THE MORE MONEY YOU WILL
MAKE!!GOOD LUCK!!!!
==============================================================================
TOPIC: Where did the 400 billion USD in subprime mortgage losses go
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/4b5ad94e9eb8e056?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 9 ==
Date: Wed, Nov 21 2007 11:16 am
From: val189
On Nov 20, 1:58 pm, Shaun Eli <missingch...@brainchampagne.com> wrote:
> An example:
>
> Pedro bought a house ten years ago for $100,000. Last year it was
> worth $500,000 ('worth' because someone was willing to pay that much).
>
> Pedro takes his $400,000 gain by selling the house to Joe.
>
> Now-- Joe wasn't actually qualified for his mortgage, and defaults,
> owing, let's say, $490,000.
>
> Because there are a lot of these circumstances, and more sellers than
> buyers, the house is now worth only $300,000.
>
> Joe defaults on his mortgage, loses his $10,000 down payment. The
> bank sells the house for $300,000, losing $190,000.
>
> Where'd the money go? Into Pedro's new house, or his bank account, or
> whatever. But it's not Pedro's fault that someone was willing to pay
> $500,000 for his house last year. It's also not Joe's fault that the
> house is worth only $300,000 today. Of course if Joe hadn't defaulted
> it wouldn't have mattered, because he'd still be living in the house
> and making payments on it, regardless of what it's actually worth at
> any random point in time. And you could say that it's maybe Joe's
> fault that he took a mortgage he couldn't really afford, as well as
> maybe the bank's (and/or mortgage broker's) fault for lending him the
> money. There's plenty of blame to go around but the one who may have
> ended up with the money isn't necessarily the culprit, if there is any
> in any particular case.
>
> Shaun Eliwww.BrainChampagne.com
> Brain Champagne: Clever Comedy for Smart Minds (sm)
Don't forget the guy on the sidelines who neither bought, nor sold, -
his local govt. decides his house is now worth a lot more because of
market value and taxes him accordingly. Just cuz the city THINKS my
house is suddenly worth a lot more doesn't put the money in my pocket,
but I sure get to pay the extra tax bite.
== 2 of 9 ==
Date: Wed, Nov 21 2007 11:19 am
From: "Rod Speed"
Bill Reid <hormelfree@happyhealthy.net> wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>> Bill Reid <hormelfree@happyhealthy.net> wrote
>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>>>> Bill Reid <hormelfree@happyhealthy.net> wrote
>>>>> FrediFizzx <fredifizzx@hotmail.com> wrote
>>>>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>>>>>>> FrediFizzx <fredifizzx@hotmail.com> wrote
>>>>>>>> Good example. The money is still out there.
>>>>>>>> The people that sold at the top have the money.
>>>>>>> No they dont when the whole market drops significantly due to the large
>>>>>>> oversupply of houses that are the result of mortgage defaults with those
>>>>>>> who should never have been given that mortgage in the first place.
>>>>>> What the heck does that have to do with people that sold
>>>>>> at the top? This totally answers the OP's original question
>>>>>> as to where the money went. It doesn't just vaporize.
>>>>> Oh, but it does, eventually. Last time this question came
>>>>> up, I mentioned my brother-in-law and sister kind of sold
>>>>> at the top in one of the most expensive real-estate markets
>>>>> and moved to the same size house in a much less expensive
>>>>> market and pocketed the difference. So THAT'S where the
>>>>> money went...first.
>>>>> Then of course they bought a boat, and then they needed a
>>>>> new giant truck to haul it around, so the boat dealer and the
>>>>> truck dealer got it, and so on. So everybody wound up getting
>>>>> a little piece of it.
>>>>> But now THAT well is dry, so where is the NEXT $400billion
>>>>> gonna come from? I think my brother-in-law and sister and their
>>>>> boat and truck dealers deserve an answer to that question...as do
>>>>> we all, or at least those of us who are smart enough to even ask
>>>>> the question (and answer it)...
>>>> If it was that easy to predict, it wouldnt happen.
>>> WRONG!!!
>> RIGHT!!!!!!
>> Have fun explaining how come even Greenspan who was
>> paid to see that sort of thing coming, didnt manage to do that.
> He was paid to see "irrational exuberance"
And that is precisely what the sub prime fiasco was...
> in the stock market,
He his paid to cover a hell of a lot more than just the stock market.
Try the entire economy.
> and he saw it...
Like hell he ever did with the sub prime fiasco.
> only problem, he saw it years before the market finally
> DID decline disasterously after first rising tremendously...
Pity about the sub prime fiasco that he never did see coming.
> I bring up this particular Greenspan prognostication not
> just because it is so well-known but so typical. The trick
> is not to "see them coming", that's just a matter of common
> sense, simple math, and public information and data.
How odd that you didnt manage to predict the sub prime fiasco yourself if its that easy.
> The IMPOSSIBILITY is to "predict" EXACT tops and bottoms, dates and prices...
No one is talking about those, what is being discussed is the sub prime fiasco,
lending immense amounts of money to those who couldnt possibly repay those
loans and securitizing those loans and flogging them off to institutions etc etc etc.
THATS the problem that no one saw coming, even operations like S&P that
are paid to rate those securitys and failed completely to rate them properly,
essentially because they had a financial interest in seeing them flogged off.
>>>> You dont get fiascos like that very often at all.
>>> Just frequently enough to be part of the "historical record"...but
>>> certainly not frequently enough for individuals operating at selfish
>>> greedy cross-purposes to realize en masse the hole they're digging...
>> Or they didnt have enough information about exactly
>> what was going on to be able to predict the fiasco
>> soon enough to avoid any consequences for themselves.
> In some cases, some people may have been "duped", but in ALL
> cases their greed exceeded their caution...and common sense...
You're talking about those taking out the loans. I was talking about
the institutions and hedge funds etc that were actually stupid enough
to buy those securitized sub prime loans. It just wasnt possible to
work out that Bear Stearns etc had actually been that stupid to such
an extent that when those loan defaulted, as was absolutely guaranteed,
that that would produce billions of losses IN THOSE FUNDS.
>>> Look, there HAVE been some real winners in these periodic
>>> blowouts; I'm not holding my breath waiting for Mark Cuban
>>> to go bankrupt after selling out right at the peak of the dot-com
>>> craze, and I'm hanging on to MY pennies...and oh yeah, that
>>> was what, a whole six years ago?
>> See above on Greenspan.
> Exactly. I think Cuban has taken some sort of credit for his
> apparent prescience, but really how smart do you have to be
> to take a $billion for a company with virtually no revenues?
Irrelevant to the sub prime fiasco.
> The real question is about the other side of the
> transaction: how STUPID do you have to be to
> PAY a $billion for a company with no revenues?
Have fun explaining google since then.
> And how thick do you have to be to not
> recognize this kind of activity as a problem?
Have fun explaining google since then.
> But you brag that YOU can't "see them coming"...
You cant with the terminal stupidity of operations like Bear
Stearns and Shittybank actually being stupid enough to get
sucked in on the sub prime fiasco, when there is no way of
knowing just how much they have poured into such dud securitys.
> That's probably because you NEVER heard a word about
> mortgage issuers loaning money to people without ANY
> documentation of their income or credit history, loaning amounts
> up to and OVER 100% of any realistic "appraisal" of the
> home value (and of course, an "appraisal" is no different
> than looking at the prices of all the other dot-coms and
> deciding that a company with no revenues really IS worth
> a $billion)...
Irrelevant to operations like Bear Stearns and Shittybank actually
being stupid enough to get sucked in on the sub prime fiasco.
They and S&P in spades should have been able to work out what
was happening with those loans on that detail. Greenspan in spades.
== 3 of 9 ==
Date: Wed, Nov 21 2007 12:17 pm
From: "FrediFizzx"
"val189" <gwehrenb@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:d442d239-e613-46d6-abe6-4b29c9c21019@y43g2000hsy.googlegroups.com...
> On Nov 20, 1:58 pm, Shaun Eli <missingch...@brainchampagne.com> wrote:
>> An example:
>>
>> Pedro bought a house ten years ago for $100,000. Last year it was
>> worth $500,000 ('worth' because someone was willing to pay that
>> much).
>>
>> Pedro takes his $400,000 gain by selling the house to Joe.
>>
>> Now-- Joe wasn't actually qualified for his mortgage, and defaults,
>> owing, let's say, $490,000.
>>
>> Because there are a lot of these circumstances, and more sellers than
>> buyers, the house is now worth only $300,000.
>>
>> Joe defaults on his mortgage, loses his $10,000 down payment. The
>> bank sells the house for $300,000, losing $190,000.
>>
>> Where'd the money go? Into Pedro's new house, or his bank account,
>> or
>> whatever. But it's not Pedro's fault that someone was willing to pay
>> $500,000 for his house last year. It's also not Joe's fault that the
>> house is worth only $300,000 today. Of course if Joe hadn't
>> defaulted
>> it wouldn't have mattered, because he'd still be living in the house
>> and making payments on it, regardless of what it's actually worth at
>> any random point in time. And you could say that it's maybe Joe's
>> fault that he took a mortgage he couldn't really afford, as well as
>> maybe the bank's (and/or mortgage broker's) fault for lending him the
>> money. There's plenty of blame to go around but the one who may have
>> ended up with the money isn't necessarily the culprit, if there is
>> any
>> in any particular case.
>>
>> Shaun Eliwww.BrainChampagne.com
>> Brain Champagne: Clever Comedy for Smart Minds (sm)
>
> Don't forget the guy on the sidelines who neither bought, nor sold, -
> his local govt. decides his house is now worth a lot more because of
> market value and taxes him accordingly. Just cuz the city THINKS my
> house is suddenly worth a lot more doesn't put the money in my pocket,
> but I sure get to pay the extra tax bite.
Yep, if you are unfortunate enough to own a house where there is nothing
like California's prop. 13. The home owner voters should organize and
pass a law limiting real estate tax increases based on valuation. Over
the long term your house being worth more will put money in your pocket
even with a bigger tax bite. Most people suck it up because they
realize that.
Fred
== 4 of 9 ==
Date: Wed, Nov 21 2007 1:18 pm
From: "Mike M."
"val189" <gwehrenb@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:d442d239-e613-46d6-abe6-4b29c9c21019@y43g2000hsy.googlegroups.com...
> Don't forget the guy on the sidelines who neither bought, nor sold, -
> his local govt. decides his house is now worth a lot more because of
> market value and taxes him accordingly. Just cuz the city THINKS my
> house is suddenly worth a lot more doesn't put the money in my pocket,
> but I sure get to pay the extra tax bite.
And speaking of property taxes, or so-called tax reform to be more specific,
the end result of my state's (FL) supposed tax "cut" somehow morphed into a
tax INCREASE. One way or another, falling property values of not (Enron
style accounting practices?) the greedy bastards always find a way to
increase revenue.
My property tax bill arrived in the mail just a few days ago. Expecting to
see the fruits of the much-publicized tax reduction legislation (only a
modest bill reduction, in fairness, as the assessed value of my home is
already artificially low due to $25K homestead exemption/3% assessment
increase cap.), I wasn't too surprised to my bill had actually gone up
slightly. It only took a couple seconds to spot the trickery.
Sure, the ad valorem portion dropped ~$80. compared to last year. But my
city has its own fire and solid waste services, and the amount billed for
such services shows up in the non-ad valorem portion of the tax bill. For
about the past 20 years, the rate increase concerning that particular
category usually fell in the 0 - 20% range. But this year's rate increase
<surprise-surprise> amounted to more than 30%, or about $120. ($526.
compared to last year's bill of just over $400.)
End result of the property tax"cut": a bill that is ~$40.00 higher than last
year! Just the same old switcharoo/slight of hand shenanigans...
Mike
== 5 of 9 ==
Date: Wed, Nov 21 2007 2:24 pm
From: "Bill Reid"
Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:5qjemvFtk6pqU1@mid.individual.net...
> Bill Reid <hormelfree@happyhealthy.net> wrote
> > Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
> >> Bill Reid <hormelfree@happyhealthy.net> wrote
> >>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
> >>>> Bill Reid <hormelfree@happyhealthy.net> wrote
> >>>>> FrediFizzx <fredifizzx@hotmail.com> wrote
> >>>>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
> >>>>>>> FrediFizzx <fredifizzx@hotmail.com> wrote
>
> >>>>>>>> Good example. The money is still out there.
> >>>>>>>> The people that sold at the top have the money.
>
> >>>>>>> No they dont when the whole market drops significantly due to the
large
> >>>>>>> oversupply of houses that are the result of mortgage defaults with
those
> >>>>>>> who should never have been given that mortgage in the first place.
>
> >>>>>> What the heck does that have to do with people that sold
> >>>>>> at the top? This totally answers the OP's original question
> >>>>>> as to where the money went. It doesn't just vaporize.
>
> >>>>> Oh, but it does, eventually. Last time this question came
> >>>>> up, I mentioned my brother-in-law and sister kind of sold
> >>>>> at the top in one of the most expensive real-estate markets
> >>>>> and moved to the same size house in a much less expensive
> >>>>> market and pocketed the difference. So THAT'S where the
> >>>>> money went...first.
>
> >>>>> Then of course they bought a boat, and then they needed a
> >>>>> new giant truck to haul it around, so the boat dealer and the
> >>>>> truck dealer got it, and so on. So everybody wound up getting
> >>>>> a little piece of it.
>
> >>>>> But now THAT well is dry, so where is the NEXT $400billion
> >>>>> gonna come from? I think my brother-in-law and sister and their
> >>>>> boat and truck dealers deserve an answer to that question...as do
> >>>>> we all, or at least those of us who are smart enough to even ask
> >>>>> the question (and answer it)...
>
> >>>> If it was that easy to predict, it wouldnt happen.
>
> >>> WRONG!!!
>
> >> RIGHT!!!!!!
>
> >> Have fun explaining how come even Greenspan who was
> >> paid to see that sort of thing coming, didnt manage to do that.
>
> > He was paid to see "irrational exuberance"
>
> And that is precisely what the sub prime fiasco was...
Taking a brief look at his purported statements on the subject
and what I "seem to remember", it does appear as if he blew his
prognostications six ways to Sunday. But he did that a lot; he
apparently used to date Barbara Walters, and she says he advised
her NOT to buy a Manhattan condo back in the '70s because
he thought it would be a bad investment, but the condos she was
looking at then for like $200K now sell for something like
$8million...
Anyway, nice dodge trying to get me to defend Alan Greenspan,
they guy who said the stock market was wildly over-inflated but then
proceeded to cut rates everytime somebody in Asia sneezed or
LTCM barfed...
> > in the stock market,
>
> He his paid to cover a hell of a lot more than just the stock market.
>
> Try the entire economy.
Yeah, at the very macro "big picture" level, but right now you
have further dodged away from your original statement by obsessing
on the details of something now known as "sub-prime"; Alan
apparently (incorrectly in my opinion) confined his analysis of
the real estate market to AVERAGES of owner equity and
indebtedness.
This is a classic mistake, because markets always move AT THE
MARGIN, and what you call "sub-prime" was a known quantity
of loan originations for MARGINAL borrowers, but this quantity
only somewhat nudged the AVERAGES in the wrong direction.
This is equivalent to saying that AVERAGE person didn't own the
dot-coms at their most ridiculous levels; this is both true and misleading
as a practical prognosticatory metric at the same time...
> > and he saw it...
>
> Like hell he ever did with the sub prime fiasco.
There you go again, all obsessed with the specifics of "sub-prime".
If somebody didn't use that precise term in 2002 while predicting
the exact day in 2007 that Citigroup would write down a few $billion,
nobuddy nose nuttin 'bout nuttin...
> > only problem, he saw it years before the market finally
> > DID decline disasterously after first rising tremendously...
>
> Pity about the sub prime fiasco that he never did see coming.
Yeah, a friggin' shame...exactly what could he have done about
it in the first place? I mean, I could tell you EXACTLY how to
fix the problem now and forever in the future, but it would 1) take
an act of Congress, and 2) collapse the US real estate market
by up to 80% in a matter of months...
> > I bring up this particular Greenspan prognostication not
> > just because it is so well-known but so typical. The trick
> > is not to "see them coming", that's just a matter of common
> > sense, simple math, and public information and data.
>
> How odd that you didnt manage to predict the sub prime fiasco yourself if
its that easy.
I posted several times in the early 'oughties about the real estate
market "boom" and it's relationship to an ill-advised credit bubble,
which really is a situation that has developed over decades of time.
Sorry though, don't think I used the current headline term "sub-prime
fiasco" WHATEVER THE HELL THAT IS, so my "common
sense" is to be discarded...as is all "common sense" the moment
most people encounter the "chaos" of the markets: NOBUDDY
NOSE NUTTIN 'BOUT NUTTIN!!!
> > The IMPOSSIBILITY is to "predict" EXACT tops and bottoms, dates and
prices...
>
> No one is talking about those, what is being discussed is the sub prime
fiasco,
> lending immense amounts of money to those who couldnt possibly repay those
> loans and securitizing those loans and flogging them off to institutions
etc etc etc.
This was all known years ago...what's your point?
> THATS the problem that no one saw coming, even operations like S&P that
> are paid to rate those securitys and failed completely to rate them
properly,
> essentially because they had a financial interest in seeing them flogged
off.
Again, what was your point again? What did you say to set off this
"discussion":
> >>>> If it was that easy to predict, it wouldnt happen.
So your point is that nobody could predict any problems with loans
to unworthy debtors for amounts up to and over the size of the collateral
based on a constantly rising market fueled by said type of loans?
I merely disagreed with that...but was THAT your point?
> >>>> You dont get fiascos like that very often at all.
>
> >>> Just frequently enough to be part of the "historical record"...but
> >>> certainly not frequently enough for individuals operating at selfish
> >>> greedy cross-purposes to realize en masse the hole they're digging...
>
> >> Or they didnt have enough information about exactly
> >> what was going on to be able to predict the fiasco
> >> soon enough to avoid any consequences for themselves.
>
> > In some cases, some people may have been "duped", but in ALL
> > cases their greed exceeded their caution...and "common sense"...
>
> You're talking about those taking out the loans.
WRONG!!! Man, are you a slave to the popular press on this
subject! I WAS talking about the large financial institutions that
bought the CDOs; the stuff about "predatory loan practices" against
"innocent" home-buyers and re-financers is a bunch of media
hooey...
> I was talking about
> the institutions and hedge funds etc that were actually stupid enough
> to buy those securitized sub prime loans.
Right, me too...
> It just wasnt possible to
> work out that Bear Stearns etc had actually been that stupid to such
> an extent that when those loan defaulted, as was absolutely guaranteed,
> that that would produce billions of losses IN THOSE FUNDS.
Me, I'm a "big picture" guy...if bad loans are out there,
SOMEBODY'S taking a loss; names like "Bear Stearns",
"Citigroup", "sub-prime fiasco" mean NOTHING to me...once
again, you're obsessed with the media-supplied "details"...
> >>> Look, there HAVE been some real winners in these periodic
> >>> blowouts; I'm not holding my breath waiting for Mark Cuban
> >>> to go bankrupt after selling out right at the peak of the dot-com
> >>> craze, and I'm hanging on to MY pennies...and oh yeah, that
> >>> was what, a whole six years ago?
>
> >> See above on Greenspan.
>
> > Exactly. I think Cuban has taken some sort of credit for his
> > apparent prescience, but really how smart do you have to be
> > to take a $billion for a company with virtually no revenues?
>
> Irrelevant to the sub prime fiasco.
How smart do you have to be to pawn off your crappy loans
to Citigroup and pocket the origination fees for your irresponsible
behavior? If they get away with it, it appears that humans of
presumably ordinary intelligence will do it again and again and again...
> > The real question is about the other side of the
> > transaction: how STUPID do you have to be to
> > PAY a $billion for a company with no revenues?
>
> Have fun explaining google since then.
What's your point? Google(TM) is a giant money-making machine...
> > And how thick do you have to be to not
> > recognize this kind of activity as a problem?
>
> Have fun explaining google since then.
I'm glad that you want me to have so much fun...however,
I would be having more fun right now if I understood what
your point is...
> > But you brag that YOU can't "see them coming"...
>
> You cant with the terminal stupidity of operations like Bear
> Stearns and Shittybank actually being stupid enough to get
> sucked in on the sub prime fiasco, when there is no way of
> knowing just how much they have poured into such dud securitys.
OK, maybe we can't know those details, but that there was a
large market in CDOs WAS known years ago...but apparently
that's not good enough for you, you want names and social
security numbers as well...
> > That's probably because you NEVER heard a word about
> > mortgage issuers loaning money to people without ANY
> > documentation of their income or credit history, loaning amounts
> > up to and OVER 100% of any realistic "appraisal" of the
> > home value (and of course, an "appraisal" is no different
> > than looking at the prices of all the other dot-coms and
> > deciding that a company with no revenues really IS worth
> > a $billion)...
>
> Irrelevant to operations like Bear Stearns and Shittybank actually
> being stupid enough to get sucked in on the sub prime fiasco.
Of course, irrelevant; as I said before, "common sense" is the
first casualty of market "warfare"...if we can't know the exact
amount of CDOs bought by Citigroup, NOBUDDY NOSE
NUTTIN 'BOUT NUTTIN!!!
And that's part of why these "mistakes" keep happening again
and again and again; since NOBUDDY NOSE NUTTIN BOUT
NUTTIN, maybe it really DOES make sense to buy a dot-com
with no revenues or a CDO consisting of a bunch of "sub-prime"
mortgages...hey, let's just "roll the dice" and see what happens,
I've always been lucky, how 'bout you?
> They and S&P in spades should have been able to work out what
> was happening with those loans on that detail. Greenspan in spades.
Well, yeah, you're right, they (particularly the big financial houses)
blew it. Some of the "bad actors" have "fallen on the sword" (with
a giant severance package, boo-hoo) if that makes you feel any
better.
Look, it's always a debate about whether something is a good
investment or not, and as I've said, "common sense" tends to fly
out the window at certain times (a LOT of the time). For me,
I just try not to fall victim to the mentality of surrender to the
craziness of the markets, but it looks like you are a typical
POW of helplessness...
---
William Ernest Reid
Post count: 860
== 6 of 9 ==
Date: Wed, Nov 21 2007 2:40 pm
From: Thurston Howell IV
Real Estate bubble burst...prices too high...loans too high to buy the
properties. When defaults occurred, the properties asking price is
much lower.....hence hugh eliminations of money out of the market.
This is just starting.
On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 11:21:33 +1100, "Rod Speed"
<rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:
>It had nothing to do with rising interest rates, everything to do with
>loans to fools that should never have got the loans in the first place
>who were absolutely guaranteed to default on those loans.
>
>Nothing to do with the media either.
== 7 of 9 ==
Date: Wed, Nov 21 2007 4:42 pm
From: "Rod Speed"
Thurston Howell IV <thowellIv@later.com> wrote:
> Real Estate bubble burst...prices too high...loans too high to buy the
> properties. When defaults occurred, the properties asking price is
> much lower.....hence hugh eliminations of money out of the market.
> This is just starting.
Nope, its been going on for quite a while now and wont get a lot worse except
with the ARMs that are still to bite the stupids that have them on the bum.
> On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 11:21:33 +1100, "Rod Speed"
> <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> It had nothing to do with rising interest rates, everything to do
>> with loans to fools that should never have got the loans in the
>> first place who were absolutely guaranteed to default on those loans.
>>
>> Nothing to do with the media either.
== 8 of 9 ==
Date: Wed, Nov 21 2007 5:22 pm
From: "Rod Speed"
Bill Reid <hormelfree@happyhealthy.net> wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>> Bill Reid <hormelfree@happyhealthy.net> wrote
>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>>>> Bill Reid <hormelfree@happyhealthy.net> wrote
>>>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>>>>>> Bill Reid <hormelfree@happyhealthy.net> wrote
>>>>>>> FrediFizzx <fredifizzx@hotmail.com> wrote
>>>>>>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>>>>>>>>> FrediFizzx <fredifizzx@hotmail.com> wrote
>>>>>>>>>> Good example. The money is still out there.
>>>>>>>>>> The people that sold at the top have the money.
>>>>>>>>> No they dont when the whole market drops significantly
>>>>>>>>> due to the large oversupply of houses that are the result
>>>>>>>>> of mortgage defaults with those who should never have
>>>>>>>>> been given that mortgage in the first place.
>>>>>>>> What the heck does that have to do with people that sold
>>>>>>>> at the top? This totally answers the OP's original question
>>>>>>>> as to where the money went. It doesn't just vaporize.
>>>>>>> Oh, but it does, eventually. Last time this question came
>>>>>>> up, I mentioned my brother-in-law and sister kind of sold
>>>>>>> at the top in one of the most expensive real-estate markets
>>>>>>> and moved to the same size house in a much less expensive
>>>>>>> market and pocketed the difference. So THAT'S where the
>>>>>>> money went...first.
>>>>>>> Then of course they bought a boat, and then they needed a
>>>>>>> new giant truck to haul it around, so the boat dealer and the
>>>>>>> truck dealer got it, and so on. So everybody wound up getting
>>>>>>> a little piece of it.
>>>>>>> But now THAT well is dry, so where is the NEXT $400billion
>>>>>>> gonna come from? I think my brother-in-law and sister and their
>>>>>>> boat and truck dealers deserve an answer to that question...as
>>>>>>> do we all, or at least those of us who are smart enough to even
>>>>>>> ask the question (and answer it)...
>>>>>> If it was that easy to predict, it wouldnt happen.
>>>>> WRONG!!!
>>>> RIGHT!!!!!!
>>
>>>> Have fun explaining how come even Greenspan who was
>>>> paid to see that sort of thing coming, didnt manage to do that.
>>> He was paid to see "irrational exuberance"
>> And that is precisely what the sub prime fiasco was...
> Taking a brief look at his purported statements on the subject
> and what I "seem to remember", it does appear as if he blew his
> prognostications six ways to Sunday. But he did that a lot; he
> apparently used to date Barbara Walters, and she says he advised
> her NOT to buy a Manhattan condo back in the '70s because he
> thought it would be a bad investment, but the condos she was
> looking at then for like $200K now sell for something like $8million...
Irrelevant to being able to see the sub prime fiasco coming.
> Anyway, nice dodge trying to get me to defend Alan Greenspan,
Just another of your pathetic little drug crazed fantasys on both counts.
> they guy who said the stock market was wildly over-inflated but then
> proceeded to cut rates everytime somebody in Asia sneezed or LTCM barfed...
He role has always been about a hell of a lot more tha just the stock market.
>>> in the stock market,
>> He was paid to cover a hell of a lot more than just the stock market.
>> Try the entire economy.
> Yeah, at the very macro "big picture" level, but right now you have
> further dodged away from your original statement by obsessing
> on the details of something now known as "sub-prime";
Its what was being discussed, you pathetic excuse for a bullshit artist.
Not predicting the stock market, what you proceeded to irrelevant rabbit on about.
> Alan apparently (incorrectly in my opinion) confined his analysis of the
> real estate market to AVERAGES of owner equity and indebtedness.
> This is a classic mistake, because markets always move AT THE MARGIN,
We aint talking about predicting the market, you fool.
What is being discussed is being aware of the SECURITIZATION
OF SUB PRIME MORTGAGES THAT ARE GUARANTEED TO
SEE A HELL OF A LOT OF DEFAULTS BECAUSE NO ONE
BOTHERED TO CHECK IF THE BORROWER COULD EVER
HOPE TO PAY OFF THAT MORTGAGE, AND THE EFFECT
THAT WOULD HAVE ON THE ENTIRE ECONOMY AS THE
OPERATION THAT GOT INVOLVED IN THAT SCAN LOST
BILLIONS OF BUCKS IN THE PROCESS.
> and what you call "sub-prime" was a known quantity of loan
> originations for MARGINAL borrowers, but this quantity only
> somewhat nudged the AVERAGES in the wrong direction.
Wrong.
> This is equivalent to saying that AVERAGE person didn't own
> the dot-coms at their most ridiculous levels; this is both true and
> misleading as a practical prognosticatory metric at the same time...
Thanks for that completely superfluous proof that you have never
ever had a fucking clue about what the sub prime fiasco is about.
>>> and he saw it...
>> Like hell he ever did with the sub prime fiasco.
> There you go again, all obsessed with the specifics of "sub-prime".
Pity it happens to be what was actually being discussed, fool.
> If somebody didn't use that precise term in 2002 while
> predicting the exact day in 2007 that Citigroup would write
> down a few $billion, nobuddy nose nuttin 'bout nuttin...
No one is talking about predicting the day, you terminal fuckwit.
He didnt even see the massive write downs that were the
inevitable result of securitization of sub prime loans coming
at all, let alone exactly when they would be announced.
>>> only problem, he saw it years before the market finally
>>> DID decline disasterously after first rising tremendously...
>> Pity about the sub prime fiasco that he never did see coming.
> Yeah, a friggin' shame...exactly what could
> he have done about it in the first place?
Exposed the terminal stupidity of the ratings that operations
like S&P was putting on those securitized loans for starters.
That alone would have caused a massive stink and got the
fools that just took the S&P ratings at face value to pause
and see whether S&P could bullshit their way out of their
predicament. Of course they wouldnt be able to do that.
> I mean, I could tell you EXACTLY how to fix the problem now
> and forever in the future, but it would 1) take an act of Congress,
No it wouldnt for Greenspan to have pointed out the terminal stupidity of
the S&P ratings and why S&P was doing that for their own financial benefit.
> and 2) collapse the US real estate market by up to 80% in a matter of months...
Wouldnt have done a damned thing to the US real
estate market if it had been done early enough.
And it would do a lot less damage to the US real estate market than
not doing anything until operations like Bear Stearns and Shittybank
hand to announce the predicament they had got themselves into.
>>> I bring up this particular Greenspan prognostication not
>>> just because it is so well-known but so typical. The trick
>>> is not to "see them coming", that's just a matter of common
>>> sense, simple math, and public information and data.
>> How odd that you didnt manage to predict
>> the sub prime fiasco yourself if its that easy.
> I posted several times in the early 'oughties about the real estate
> market "boom" and it's relationship to an ill-advised credit bubble,
Nothing to do with the sub prime fiasco.
> which really is a situation that has developed over decades of time.
Nothing to do with the sub prime fiasco.
> Sorry though, don't think I used the current headline term
> "sub-prime fiasco" WHATEVER THE HELL THAT IS,
Thanks for that completely superfluous proof that you STILL havent
even managed to grasp what that is actually about even now.
Hint: have a look at what has happened to Bear Stearns and Shittybank and S&P some time.
Doesnt have a damned thing to do with US real estate property values
except that once the sub prime loans were no longer readily available,
because no one would actually be stupid enough to buy those securitized
sub prime loans anymore, that inevitably resulted in heaps of loan defaults
and that had a significant effect on real estate property values.
> so my "common sense" is to be discarded...as is all "common
> sense" the moment most people encounter the "chaos" of the
> markets: NOBUDDY NOSE NUTTIN 'BOUT NUTTIN!!!
Never ever could bullshit its way out of a wet paper bag.
>>> The IMPOSSIBILITY is to "predict" EXACT tops and bottoms, dates and prices...
>> No one is talking about those, what is being discussed is the sub
>> prime fiasco, lending immense amounts of money to those who couldnt
>> possibly repay those loans and securitizing those loans and flogging
>> them off to institutions etc etc etc.
> This was all known years ago...
How odd that we didnt see the results Bear Stearns and Shittybank got at that time.
> what's your point?
>> THATS the problem that no one saw coming, even operations like S&P
>> that are paid to rate those securitys and failed completely to rate
>> them properly, essentially because they had a financial interest in
>> seeing them flogged off.
> Again, what was your point again? What did you say to set off this "discussion":
Never ever could bullshit its way out of a wet paper bag.
>>>>>> If it was that easy to predict, it wouldnt happen.
> So your point is that nobody could predict any problems with loans
> to unworthy debtors for amounts up to and over the size of the collateral
> based on a constantly rising market fueled by said type of loans?
Nope.
> I merely disagreed with that...
No you didnt.
> but was THAT your point?
Nope.
>>>>>> You dont get fiascos like that very often at all.
>>>>> Just frequently enough to be part of the "historical record"...but
>>>>> certainly not frequently enough for individuals operating at
>>>>> selfish greedy cross-purposes to realize en masse the hole
>>>>> they're digging...
>>>> Or they didnt have enough information about exactly
>>>> what was going on to be able to predict the fiasco
>>>> soon enough to avoid any consequences for themselves.
>>> In some cases, some people may have been "duped", but in ALL
>>> cases their greed exceeded their caution...and "common sense"...
>> You're talking about those taking out the loans.
> WRONG!!!
RIGHT!!!!!
> Man, are you a slave to the popular press on this subject!
How odd that I dont even read the popular press, fuckwit.
> I WAS talking about the large financial institutions that bought
> the CDOs; the stuff about "predatory loan practices" against
> "innocent" home-buyers and re-financers is a bunch of media hooey...
Pity I didnt even mention any of that.
>> I was talking about the institutions and hedge funds etc that were
>> actually stupid enough to buy those securitized sub prime loans.
> Right, me too...
Lying, again. You were mindlessly rabbiting on about predicting the market.
A different matter entirely.
>> It just wasnt possible to work out that Bear Stearns etc had
>> actually been that stupid to such an extent that when those
>> loan defaulted, as was absolutely guaranteed, that that
>> would produce billions of losses IN THOSE FUNDS.
> Me, I'm a "big picture" guy...if bad loans
> are out there, SOMEBODY'S taking a loss;
In the past that was whoever was actually stupid enough to be writing the loans.
The difference with the sub prime fiasco IS THE SECURITIZATION
OF THOSE LOANS WITH S&P RATINGS ON THOSE LOANS THAT
SAW HORDES STUPID ENOUGH TO BUY THE S&P RATINGS
AND DECIDE THAT THEY WERE A SAFE INVESTMENT.
> names like "Bear Stearns", "Citigroup", "sub-prime fiasco" mean NOTHING to me...
No surprises there.
> once again, you're obsessed with the media-supplied "details"...
Never ever could bullshit its way out of a wet paper bag.
>>>>> Look, there HAVE been some real winners in these periodic
>>>>> blowouts; I'm not holding my breath waiting for Mark Cuban
>>>>> to go bankrupt after selling out right at the peak of the dot-com
>>>>> craze, and I'm hanging on to MY pennies...and oh yeah, that
>>>>> was what, a whole six years ago?
>>>> See above on Greenspan.
>>> Exactly. I think Cuban has taken some sort of credit for his
>>> apparent prescience, but really how smart do you have to be
>>> to take a $billion for a company with virtually no revenues?
>> Irrelevant to the sub prime fiasco.
> How smart do you have to be to pawn off your crappy loans to Citigroup
> and pocket the origination fees for your irresponsible behavior?
Smart enough to get S&P to rate them in a way that would
get fools to believe that they were safe investments.
> If they get away with it, it appears that humans of presumably
> ordinary intelligence will do it again and again and again...
You wont be doing it now.
>>> The real question is about the other side of the
>>> transaction: how STUPID do you have to be to
>>> PAY a $billion for a company with no revenues?
>> Have fun explaining google since then.
> What's your point?
That that mindlessly superficial way of deciding what might fly
would have seen you decide that google was never going to fly.
> Google(TM) is a giant money-making machine...
It wasnt at float time revenue wise.
>>> And how thick do you have to be to not
>>> recognize this kind of activity as a problem?
>> Have fun explaining google since then.
> I'm glad that you want me to have so much fun...however, I would
> be having more fun right now if I understood what your point is...
Not even possible, you've got that problem with ear to ear dog shit.
>>> But you brag that YOU can't "see them coming"...
>> You cant with the terminal stupidity of operations like Bear
>> Stearns and Shittybank actually being stupid enough to get
>> sucked in on the sub prime fiasco, when there is no way of
>> knowing just how much they have poured into such dud securitys.
> OK, maybe we can't know those details,
No maybe about it.
> but that there was a large market in CDOs WAS known years ago...
Not with SUB PRIME LOANS there wasnt.
Which might just be why its called the sub prime fiasco, stupid.
> but apparently that's not good enough for you, you
> want names and social security numbers as well...
Nope, just the basic information that its sub prime loans that will
be defaulting in huge numbers thats the 'assets' being securitized.
Thats what the S&P rating was supposed to be about, but wasnt, essentially
because it was in S&P's interest for those to be completely misleading.
>>> That's probably because you NEVER heard a word about
>>> mortgage issuers loaning money to people without ANY
>>> documentation of their income or credit history, loaning amounts
>>> up to and OVER 100% of any realistic "appraisal" of the
>>> home value (and of course, an "appraisal" is no different
>>> than looking at the prices of all the other dot-coms and
>>> deciding that a company with no revenues really IS worth
>>> a $billion)...
>> Irrelevant to operations like Bear Stearns and Shittybank actually
>> being stupid enough to get sucked in on the sub prime fiasco.
> Of course, irrelevant; as I said before, "common sense" is the
> first casualty of market "warfare"...if we can't know the exact
> amount of CDOs bought by Citigroup, NOBUDDY NOSE
> NUTTIN 'BOUT NUTTIN!!!
It aint the amount of CDOs that matters, its the quality of the loans that were securitized, fool.
> And that's part of why these "mistakes" keep happening again
> and again and again; since NOBUDDY NOSE NUTTIN BOUT
> NUTTIN, maybe it really DOES make sense to buy a dot-com
> with no revenues or a CDO consisting of a bunch of "sub-prime"
> mortgages...
Pity that fact wasnt available to the market.
> hey, let's just "roll the dice" and see what happens,
> I've always been lucky, how 'bout you?
Thats not what the S&P rating is about.
>> They and S&P in spades should have been able to work out what
>> was happening with those loans on that detail. Greenspan in spades.
> Well, yeah, you're right, they (particularly the big financial houses)
> blew it. Some of the "bad actors" have "fallen on the sword" (with
> a giant severance package, boo-hoo) if that makes you feel any better.
And that fool Greenspan hasnt hung himself.
> Look, it's always a debate about whether something is a good
> investment or not, and as I've said, "common sense" tends to
> fly out the window at certain times (a LOT of the time).
The problem aint common sense flying out the window, the problem
was that it wasnt visible that the CDOs were sub prime loans that
didnt qualify for anything like the rating that S&P was giving them.
> For me, I just try not to fall victim to the mentality
> of surrender to the craziness of the markets, but
> it looks like you are a typical POW of helplessness...
Time for new glasses. I havent lost even a cent due to the sub prime fiasco.
And wasnt actually stupid enough to use your approach with regard to google either.
== 9 of 9 ==
Date: Wed, Nov 21 2007 5:54 pm
From: George Grapman
Rod Speed wrote:
>
>
> Time for new glasses. I havent lost even a cent due to the sub prime fiasco.
What could you lose? Your only asset is your welfare stipend.
>
> And wasnt actually stupid enough to use your approach with regard to google either.
>
>
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TOPIC: Just for Kids bySantaShop.com
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/1f21874a08045c2d?hl=en
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TOPIC: Arab and Asian Indian Stores And The Risks They Encounter
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/1dfdeb9e8ca8dc31?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Wed, Nov 21 2007 2:16 pm
From: BrotherSandMonkey
On Nov 19, 11:03 pm, "** Frank **" <noem...@xyz.net> wrote:
> "George Grapman" <sfgeo...@paccbell.net> wrote in message
> San Francisco mom and pop store use to be white own, Chinese took over
> during the late 50s, than the Arabs came in during the early 70s. Don't know
> when the Asian Indians took over as I was out of the City by than. I use to
> work in one - long hours, low profit and dangerous. Most days all you could
> do is break even. We use to buy from union, United Grocers, and have the
> trucks deliver the products and can goods to the front door. Our cost of
> goods were more than what Safeway sells down the street. Tough to make a
> living that way. We use to extend credit to everyone in the neighborhood,
> even little kids for candy money. Suprisingly we didn't get burn too often.
> Bums/winos come in and we make them a free sandwich and a soft drink and
> send them off. Got rob couple of times but only once at gun point - too
> dangerous now.
Thank you, George. You're quite right. It is dangerous these days.
And there is ongoing
hatred for these Asian Indians and Arabs; the hatred can be exhibited
when certain customers get
nasty with them, police may be called in. This can occur on weekends
when the local bar scene is
quite active with suburbanites who decide to come to the city to
party. The mix can get hectic at these
24 hour A-Plus Mini-Marts which charge a lot for food and other items
while their best sales are lottery
tickets, malt liquor/alcohol, cigarettes and gasoline.
== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Wed, Nov 21 2007 2:17 pm
From: BrotherSandMonkey
On Nov 20, 9:46 am, jdoe <j...@aol.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 19 Nov 2007 14:24:18 -0800 (PST), BrotherSandMonkey
>
> <blin...@volcanomail.com> wrote:
> >As you well know, Mom and Pop stores are really much a thing of the
> >past when it comes to inner cities and urban areas. This has been
> >dominated by owners of Arab descent. While it can be understood these
> >Arab- and even Asian Indian- owned stores encounter risks if they are
> >located in urban areas ansd if they are 24 hour operated. Thus you may
> >at times read of a shooting or robbery taking place involving a store
> >of this type. Not to mention that these stores may mark up goods which
> >they purchased at stores primarily catering to the average consumer
> >(eg Aldi, Save A Lot, et al).
>
> your point is?
You reap what you sow. You often deserve what you get if you get
greedy.
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TOPIC: Free Arthritis Today Magazine
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TOPIC: 11% inflation
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==============================================================================
== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Nov 21 2007 7:35 pm
From: "** Frank **"
<nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:mndvj31raq5jfbv84tin5k0ilnd2ug61f9@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 17 Nov 2007 13:55:37 -0800, in misc.consumers.frugal-living "**
> Frank
> **" <noemall@xyz.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>"timeOday" <timeOday-UNSPAM@theknack.net> wrote in message
>>news:07OdnUOchozp0qPanZ2dnUVZ_gmdnZ2d@comcast.com...
>>>
>>> <http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSN1532573220071115>
>>>
>>> WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. consumers will pay 11 percent more for the
>>> traditional Thanksgiving meal this year, due in part to higher energy
>>> costs, the American Farm Bureau Federation said on Thursday.
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> How do the official inflation figures stay so low? Food, gas, health
>>> care, travel, all shooting up in price.
>>
>>
>>
>>Isn't core inflation something like 2% excluding housing, food and
>>whatever
>>else? Not too much inflation is good to impede recession.
>>
>>I'm sick of having turkey year after year, so we're going to the in-laws
>>for
>>Thanksgiving, German ox tail stew. Today wife did Asian deli takeout -
>>flat
>>white noodle, roast duck and pork, Korean ribs, deep fried shrimps, BBQ
>>chicken, including a can of soda, etc. - all this for a whopping $8! This
>>would feed both of us for lunch and dinner, $2 per person per meal - how's
>>that for inflation?
>>
>
>
> How about $1.14 for a 33cent can of evaporated milk.
>
Not concern with evaporated milk even if it goes to $20 a can. What concern
me more is crude oil going above $100 per barrel, huge deflation in the
housing market with the subprime fiasco dragging everything down with it,
resetting 52 week lows in so many stocks, mutual funds and benchmarks.
Frightening to witness so many billions of dollars disappeared just
overnight. 11% for the special, natural turkey doesn't look too bad, as
everything is relative. Next year would be interesting, perhaps more pain.
==============================================================================
TOPIC: Happy Thanksgiving MCFL
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/6eb202bfcb25db33?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Nov 21 2007 7:48 pm
From: "** Frank **"
"pc" <pc@somewhere.com> wrote in message
news:h4%0j.4595$Os.2656@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
>I just thought I'd post a note to the group to wish you all a Happy
>Thanksgiving.
>
> I've learned a lot from you all over the past decade +.
> During both lean times and good times, on my part, this group has been a
> wealth of knowledge, innovation and inspiration.
>
> Thank you all.
>
> ..PC
>
Happy turkey day to you too. Looking forward to pick up some tools at Lowe's
on Black Friday - cashier said they have many items at 60% off. Like to go
to Best Buys too but its too crazy and lines too long - only tough
housewives could slug it through.
==============================================================================
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TOPIC: Bush To Let Illegal Aliens Get $40 Digital TV Coupons
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==============================================================================
== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Nov 21 2007 8:58 pm
From: garrethhume@yahoo.com
On Nov 20, 8:50 pm, web...@polaris.net (Ubiquitous) wrote:
> It is simply breathtaking to watch the glee and abandon with which
> the liberal media and the Angry Left have been attempting to turn
> our military victory in Iraq into a second Vietnam quagmire. Too bad
> for them, it's failing.
It is simply breathtaking to watch the malice and negligence with
which the Bush Administration and the Angry Right have been
attempting to turn their criminal blunder in Iraq into a victory.
Too bad for all of us, Bush is a failure.
==============================================================================
TOPIC: Antique Photo Gallery
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Nov 21 2007 9:16 pm
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