Frugal Living: 25 new messages in 18 topics

Wednesday, November 21, 2007

25 new messages in 18 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

* Where did the 400 billion USD in subprime mortgage losses go - 6 messages, 4
authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/4b5ad94e9eb8e056?hl=en
* !!!!!!! Genuine Way To Permanently Enlarge Your Penis At Home !!!!!!! - 1
messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/ff76db5c5285419a?hl=en
* Free Condoms - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/949bf237375d9666?hl=en
* ~!!~ 100% - FREE GUIDE To Make Money Online Without Single Dollar Investment
~!!~ - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/edf7ac476ac5b206?hl=en
* Balance Transfer Credit Cards - 2 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/c9f5c888f2a8cb2e?hl=en
* hot selling sports shoes ,sneakers, trains shoes

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Where did the 400 billion USD in subprime mortgage losses go
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/4b5ad94e9eb8e056?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 6 ==
Date: Wed, Nov 21 2007 12:12 am
From: "Bill Reid"

Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:5qhqriF104g7eU1@mid.individual.net...
> Bill Reid <hormelfree@happyhealthy.net> wrote:
> > FrediFizzx <fredifizzx@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:5qhfkiFvj35pU1@mid.individual.net...
> >> "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >> news:5qgub4F103pskU1@mid.individual.net...
> >>> FrediFizzx <fredifizzx@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>>> Good example. The money is still out there. The people that sold
> >>>> at the top have the money.
> >>>
> >>> No they dont when the whole market drops significantly due to the
> >>> large
> >>> oversupply of houses that are the result of mortgage defaults with
> >>> those
> >>> who should never have been given that mortgage in the first place.
> >>
> >> What the heck does that have to do with people that sold at the top?
> >> This totally answers the OP's original question as to where the money
> >> went. It doesn't just vaporize.
> >
> > Oh, but it does, eventually. Last time this question came
> > up, I mentioned my brother-in-law and sister kind of sold
> > at the top in one of the most expensive real-estate markets
> > and moved to the same size house in a much less expensive
> > market and pocketed the difference. So THAT'S where the
> > money went...first.
> >
> > Then of course they bought a boat, and then they needed a
> > new giant truck to haul it around, so the boat dealer and the
> > truck dealer got it, and so on. So everybody wound up getting
> > a little piece of it.
> >
> > But now THAT well is dry, so where is the NEXT $400billion
> > gonna come from? I think my brother-in-law and sister and their
> > boat and truck dealers deserve an answer to that question...as do
> > we all, or at least those of us who are smart enough to even ask
> > the question (and answer it)...
>
> If it was that easy to predict, it wouldnt happen.

WRONG!!!

> You dont get fiascos like that very often at all.

Just frequently enough to be part of the "historical record"...but
certainly not frequently enough for individuals operating at selfish
greedy cross-purposes to realize en masse the hole they're digging...

Look, there HAVE been some real winners in these periodic
blowouts; I'm not holding my breath waiting for Mark Cuban
to go bankrupt after selling out right at the peak of the dot-com
craze, and I'm hanging on to MY pennies...and oh yeah, that
was what, a whole six years ago?

---
William Ernest Reid
Post count: 855

== 2 of 6 ==
Date: Wed, Nov 21 2007 12:12 am
From: "Bill Reid"

FrediFizzx <fredifizzx@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:5qhn1sF106e2qU1@mid.individual.net...
> "Bill Reid" <hormelfree@happyhealthy.net> wrote in message
> news:nKM0j.123036$kj1.50673@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> > FrediFizzx <fredifizzx@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:5qhfkiFvj35pU1@mid.individual.net...
> >> "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >> news:5qgub4F103pskU1@mid.individual.net...
> >> > FrediFizzx <fredifizzx@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >> Good example. The money is still out there. The people that sold
> >> >> at
> >> >> the top have the money.
> >> >
> >> > No they dont when the whole market drops significantly due to the
> >> > large
> >> > oversupply of houses that are the result of mortgage defaults with
> >> > those
> >> > who should never have been given that mortgage in the first place.
> >>
> >> What the heck does that have to do with people that sold at the top?
> >> This totally answers the OP's original question as to where the money
> >> went. It doesn't just vaporize.
> >
> > Oh, but it does, eventually. Last time this question came
> > up, I mentioned my brother-in-law and sister kind of sold
> > at the top in one of the most expensive real-estate markets
> > and moved to the same size house in a much less expensive
> > market and pocketed the difference. So THAT'S where the
> > money went...first.
> >
> > Then of course they bought a boat, and then they needed a
> > new giant truck to haul it around, so the boat dealer and the
> > truck dealer got it, and so on. So everybody wound up getting
> > a little piece of it.
> >
> > But now THAT well is dry, so where is the NEXT $400billion
> > gonna come from? I think my brother-in-law and sister and their
> > boat and truck dealers deserve an answer to that question...as do
> > we all, or at least those of us who are smart enough to even ask
> > the question (and answer it)...
>
> <Sigh> I really thought that perhaps you were "smarter than a fifth
> grader". ;-)

Reminds of the joke about how smart you have to be to train
a dog...

> The money is still out there circulating, isn't it?

Might be getting a little limp and frayed at this point, but
even if it's ripped in half you can get a new bill from the bank
if you have the larger half...

> Your
> sister's family have some assets they didn't have before, don't they?

Yeah, a truck that lost 20% when they drove it off the lot, only an
idiot would ask about the boat's value, and a house that's depreciating
in value...

> The next $400 billion comes from working for it

BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Thanks, my sinuses were a little clogged, that really hit the spot!

> and for time that passes
> to make real estate worth more.

You mean "inflation"? Or a thousand years from now when it
is under water from global warming maybe it will be really valuable
as an exotic vacation destination time-share?

> Sure, real estate is kind of like a
> pyramid scheme but it has always been that way and will continue barring
> some major catastrophic event.

Like "deflation"?

What's really fun, as usual, is to go back and read the discussions
on this group concerning real estate a few years back, compared to
the constant drumbeat of bad news today. As usual, only a VERY
few had it right, could somehow "magically" predict the future...how'd
dey do dat?

---
William Ernest Reid
Post count: 856

== 3 of 6 ==
Date: Wed, Nov 21 2007 12:48 am
From: "Rod Speed"

Bill Reid <hormelfree@happyhealthy.net> wrote:
> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:5qhqriF104g7eU1@mid.individual.net...
>> Bill Reid <hormelfree@happyhealthy.net> wrote:
>>> FrediFizzx <fredifizzx@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:5qhfkiFvj35pU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>> "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:5qgub4F103pskU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>>> FrediFizzx <fredifizzx@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> Good example. The money is still out there. The people that
>>>>>> sold at the top have the money.
>>>>>
>>>>> No they dont when the whole market drops significantly due to the
>>>>> large
>>>>> oversupply of houses that are the result of mortgage defaults with
>>>>> those
>>>>> who should never have been given that mortgage in the first place.
>>>>
>>>> What the heck does that have to do with people that sold at the
>>>> top? This totally answers the OP's original question as to where
>>>> the money went. It doesn't just vaporize.
>>>
>>> Oh, but it does, eventually. Last time this question came
>>> up, I mentioned my brother-in-law and sister kind of sold
>>> at the top in one of the most expensive real-estate markets
>>> and moved to the same size house in a much less expensive
>>> market and pocketed the difference. So THAT'S where the
>>> money went...first.
>>>
>>> Then of course they bought a boat, and then they needed a
>>> new giant truck to haul it around, so the boat dealer and the
>>> truck dealer got it, and so on. So everybody wound up getting
>>> a little piece of it.
>>>
>>> But now THAT well is dry, so where is the NEXT $400billion
>>> gonna come from? I think my brother-in-law and sister and their
>>> boat and truck dealers deserve an answer to that question...as do
>>> we all, or at least those of us who are smart enough to even ask
>>> the question (and answer it)...
>>
>> If it was that easy to predict, it wouldnt happen.

> WRONG!!!

RIGHT!!!!!!

Have fun explaining how come even Greenspan who was
paid to see that sort of thing coming, didnt manage to do that.

Yeah, yeah, I know, he's a jew in on the conspiracy to shaft us all...

>> You dont get fiascos like that very often at all.

> Just frequently enough to be part of the "historical record"...but
> certainly not frequently enough for individuals operating at selfish
> greedy cross-purposes to realize en masse the hole they're digging...

Or they didnt have enough information about exactly
what was going on to be able to predict the fiasco
soon enough to avoid any consequences for themselves.

> Look, there HAVE been some real winners in these periodic
> blowouts; I'm not holding my breath waiting for Mark Cuban
> to go bankrupt after selling out right at the peak of the dot-com
> craze, and I'm hanging on to MY pennies...and oh yeah, that
> was what, a whole six years ago?

See above on Greenspan.

== 4 of 6 ==
Date: Wed, Nov 21 2007 1:43 am
From: "Mike M."

"<RJ>" <baranick@localnet.com> wrote in message
news:2s97k313ojj48hmi8lqpgvti47ifrhfku4@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 09:36:44 -0800, Wilson <davewilson69@sbcglobal.net>
> wrote:
>
>>I keep reading about the 400 billion us dollars in subprime losses to
>>date,
>>e.g, see this bloomberg article http://tinyurl.com/2vjgq7
>>
>>Where there is a 400 billion dollar loss there is a 400 billion dollar
>>gain.
>>
>>I don't understand WHO gained from this 400 billion dollars?
>>
>>Who wins here? How?
>>I'm cash rich - can I benefit by taking some action?
>
>
> You buy a house for $500,000 ( with a full mortgage )
>
> In theory, your bank is holding papers on a $500,000 asset.
>
> You lose your job and can't make payments.
> Meanwhile. demand for half-million houses has dried up.
> You try to sell your house for a half-mil... can't.
>
> You default on your mortgage. Bank forecloses.
> But now, the best they can sell the house for is...... $250,000
>
> Where did the other quarter-mil go ?
>
> The only person who got away clean is the original seller.
> They walked away with a check for $500,000 minus closing costs.

Not necessarily. Let's take a closer look at fictional Pedro, mentioned
earlier in this thread.

Him and others of his kind who sold at or near the top for a huge windfall
still, of course, need a place to live. If they were wise and willing/able
to relocate to an area with lower housing costs - or even downsize to say a
condo/less expensive home - they may indeed have managed to hang on to a
large chunk of their windfall.

But, after factoring in greed/false sense of wealth/poor spending habits,
such cases are probably more the exception than rule. The following
scenario seems more likely:

(circa early 2005) Flush with $400K in cash after the sale of his former
home, which he purchased several years earlier for only $100K, Pedro chooses
to upgrade to new construction and purchases a beautiful new townhouse in a
trendy new development.

Although the new home is quite pricey at $600K ($100K more than the sale
price his former home), Pedro's monthly mortgage payment seems reasonable
enough - thanks to a 50% down payment and an incredibly low interest rate
his mortgage broker somehow managed to secure (only 3.9%* Wow!)

Pedro and family settle in to their new home. No point in having $100K
excess cash or "disposable income" sit around and gather dust, so Pedro
starts spending a bit of it on items such as: new furniture; a jumbo-sized
plasma TV; fun-filled vacations to Florida, Disney World, Vegas and so on.
(Very patriotic of him as well - spend, spend, spend helps keep the economic
machine well lubricated.)

(circa early 2007) With cash reserves running dangerously low, and troubled
by the number of "For Sale by Owner/Foreclosure/Bank-Owned Sale" signs
popping up all over his development, Pedro painfully recalls what his
mortgage broker had told him just two years earlier:

"Sure, your monthly payment may go up a little <cough> in two years' time.
But don't worry about it. Just refinance the loan. After all, your $600K
townhouse will be worth at least $800K by then. How can you go wrong?
Trust me, these exotic adjustable rate products are the greatest thing since
sliced bread. A win-win situation, I tells ya. Can't lose. No worries at
all. Just sign here."

(circa late 2007) Broke* (*refer to details concerning incredibly low
3.9%* interest rate) and unable to awake from his self-inflicted year-long
nightmare, Pedro, now divorced and paying $200/wk. in alimony/child support,
once again lowers the asking price of his supposed "dream" home: $449K.

Then salvation arrives in the form of an offer received: $400K - take it or
leave it, so says the buyer.

Cash-strapped and desperate, Pedro bows his head in defeat and accepts the
low-ball offer. After paying off the mortgage, Pedro returns to his old
neighborhood with $100K in his pocket. Right back where he started from?
Not even close. The vanishing of such money is just the beginning of poor
Pedro's woes.

Mike
-- the guy who took Pedro's money, who in turn lost it to some guy named
Joe. Don't know if Joe still has it, but rumor has it he lost it to another
guy named...

== 5 of 6 ==
Date: Wed, Nov 21 2007 8:42 am
From: "Bill Reid"

Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:5qi9neF100h2rU1@mid.individual.net...
> Bill Reid <hormelfree@happyhealthy.net> wrote:
> > Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:5qhqriF104g7eU1@mid.individual.net...
> >> Bill Reid <hormelfree@happyhealthy.net> wrote:
> >>> FrediFizzx <fredifizzx@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >>> news:5qhfkiFvj35pU1@mid.individual.net...
> >>>> "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >>>> news:5qgub4F103pskU1@mid.individual.net...
> >>>>> FrediFizzx <fredifizzx@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>>> Good example. The money is still out there. The people that
> >>>>>> sold at the top have the money.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> No they dont when the whole market drops significantly due to the
> >>>>> large
> >>>>> oversupply of houses that are the result of mortgage defaults with
> >>>>> those
> >>>>> who should never have been given that mortgage in the first place.
> >>>>
> >>>> What the heck does that have to do with people that sold at the
> >>>> top? This totally answers the OP's original question as to where
> >>>> the money went. It doesn't just vaporize.
> >>>
> >>> Oh, but it does, eventually. Last time this question came
> >>> up, I mentioned my brother-in-law and sister kind of sold
> >>> at the top in one of the most expensive real-estate markets
> >>> and moved to the same size house in a much less expensive
> >>> market and pocketed the difference. So THAT'S where the
> >>> money went...first.
> >>>
> >>> Then of course they bought a boat, and then they needed a
> >>> new giant truck to haul it around, so the boat dealer and the
> >>> truck dealer got it, and so on. So everybody wound up getting
> >>> a little piece of it.
> >>>
> >>> But now THAT well is dry, so where is the NEXT $400billion
> >>> gonna come from? I think my brother-in-law and sister and their
> >>> boat and truck dealers deserve an answer to that question...as do
> >>> we all, or at least those of us who are smart enough to even ask
> >>> the question (and answer it)...
> >>
> >> If it was that easy to predict, it wouldnt happen.
>
> > WRONG!!!
>
> RIGHT!!!!!!
>
> Have fun explaining how come even Greenspan who was
> paid to see that sort of thing coming, didnt manage to do that.

He was paid to see "irrational exuberance" in the stock market,
and he saw it...only problem, he saw it years before the market
finally DID decline disasterously after first rising tremendously...

I bring up this particular Greenspan prognostication not just
because it is so well-known but so typical. The trick is not to
"see them coming", that's just a matter of common sense, simple
math, and public information and data. The IMPOSSIBILITY
is to "predict" EXACT tops and bottoms, dates and prices...

> >> You dont get fiascos like that very often at all.
>
> > Just frequently enough to be part of the "historical record"...but
> > certainly not frequently enough for individuals operating at selfish
> > greedy cross-purposes to realize en masse the hole they're digging...
>
> Or they didnt have enough information about exactly
> what was going on to be able to predict the fiasco
> soon enough to avoid any consequences for themselves.

In some cases, some people may have been "duped", but in ALL
cases their greed exceeded their caution...and common sense...

> > Look, there HAVE been some real winners in these periodic
> > blowouts; I'm not holding my breath waiting for Mark Cuban
> > to go bankrupt after selling out right at the peak of the dot-com
> > craze, and I'm hanging on to MY pennies...and oh yeah, that
> > was what, a whole six years ago?
>
> See above on Greenspan.

Exactly. I think Cuban has taken some sort of credit for his
apparent prescience, but really how smart do you have to be
to take a $billion for a company with virtually no revenues? The
real question is about the other side of the transaction: how
STUPID do you have to be to PAY a $billion for a company
with no revenues? And how thick do you have to be to not
recognize this kind of activity as a problem? But you brag
that YOU can't "see them coming"...

That's probably because you NEVER heard a word about
mortgage issuers loaning money to people without ANY
documentation of their income or credit history, loaning amounts
up to and OVER 100% of any realistic "appraisal" of the
home value (and of course, an "appraisal" is no different
than looking at the prices of all the other dot-coms and
deciding that a company with no revenues really IS worth
a $billion)...

---
William Ernest Reid
Post count: 858

== 6 of 6 ==
Date: Wed, Nov 21 2007 9:43 am
From: "BillGross@gmail.ca"

The only thing we can agree on is everyone hates america & George
"PugFucker" Bush.

A war against america is held daily . . . in the FX arena. And
each day america loses
the battle . . . the dollar is weak, weak as a little girl. It is
hated by the world and will soon
go to zero or lower.
If you consider the actual value of a USeless dollar, it is worth what
scrap paper will fetch,
you are a nation of fat debtors. And the worst educated in the
industrial world.

As an example, it is expected that 10.000 yanks will choke on the
turkey they are deep
throating this thanxgiving . . . . and you wonder why your army full
of fags and weak as
little girls cannot prevail in iraq.

Visit my site and see why EVERYONE hates america, the weak little girl
country of fat debtors.

www.GodHatesAmerica.com

==============================================================================
TOPIC: !!!!!!! Genuine Way To Permanently Enlarge Your Penis At Home !!!!!!!
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/ff76db5c5285419a?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Nov 21 2007 12:30 am
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TOPIC: Free Condoms
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/949bf237375d9666?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Nov 21 2007 12:40 am
From: Anthony Matonak

Cheapo Groovo wrote:
> Free Condoms
...
Do they also offer free pregnancy and paternity tests?

Anthony

==============================================================================
TOPIC: ~!!~ 100% - FREE GUIDE To Make Money Online Without Single Dollar
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http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/edf7ac476ac5b206?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Nov 21 2007 2:22 am
From: "robclark10@gmail.com"

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TOPIC: Balance Transfer Credit Cards
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/c9f5c888f2a8cb2e?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Wed, Nov 21 2007 2:58 am
From: lianzhaowei888

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== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Wed, Nov 21 2007 2:59 am
From: lianzhaowei888

==============================================================================
TOPIC: hot selling sports shoes ,sneakers, trains shoes

www.globwholesale.
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http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/aeb3bb157848540c?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Nov 21 2007 3:57 am
From: globwholesale@126.com

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==============================================================================
TOPIC: The world according to Rod Speed
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/07750d05eafd4cb3?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Nov 21 2007 4:08 am
From: Just A User

Logan Shaw wrote:
> William Souden wrote:
>> The yuan is still linked to the dollar.
>> There is no need to write checks. Even if you rent your landlord
>> will take credit/debit cards.
>> The First Amendment does not apply to non-citizens who are in the US.
>> In the US the number of weekly new job losses only exceeded the
>> monthly number of new jobs one time over the last few years.
>> Online editions of newspapers have the same content as print versions.
>
> OK, we get that you're fascinated with Rod and devote a lot of time to
> thinking about him. No need to remind us in the future.
>
> - Logan

I had almost forgotten about R.S. if it weren't for this thread. Filters
are your friend.

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TOPIC: Milenko Kindl hohjdfioejdwedj[0edjkw0e
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/8b48d78e723cfc59?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Nov 21 2007 4:30 am
From: Milenko Kindl

NEW YORK - Millions of Americans began hitting the roads, skies and
train tracks early Wednesday in what was predicted to be the largest
Thanksgiving pilgrimage ever -- despite rising gas prices and fears of
air delays.
ADVERTISEMENT

A record 38.7 million U.S. residents were expected to travel 50 miles
or more for the holiday. Some were hoping to beat the evening rush on
what is often called the busiest travel day of the year.

At LaGuardia Airport, the lines to check-in were beginning to build
shortly before daybreak. Joe Vizzari, a teacher from Port Chester,
N.Y., was resigned to the crowds.

"It's part of flying," he said, en route to Raleigh, N.C., to visit
friends. "I just stay calm and cool and call my loved ones on my cell
and tell them not to worry, `I'm on the way.'"

At the Salt Lake City airport, Dennis Tos made sure to try to avoid
delays and crowds by boarding a redeye flight shortly before midnight.

"I specifically chose this hour to not get stuck in an airport. The
horror stories kind of bothered me," he said en route to a family
reunion near Buffalo, N.Y. "I've never missed a Thanksgiving in the 58
years I've been alive."

About 31.2 million travelers were expected to drive to holiday
celebrations in spite of gas prices that were nearly 85 cents more per
gallon than they were a year earlier, according to AAA. The national
average for regular gasoline on Nov. 16 was $3.09 a gallon, up from
$2.23 on Nov. 17, 2006.

"Wednesday ends up getting hairy," AAA spokeswoman Christine Brown
said. "Many people have to wait until after work to leave, and they're
competing with commuters as well."

At New York's Pennsylvania Station, hundreds of travelers were already
heading out of town Tuesday night, wrangling their bags and sprawling
on the floor as they waited for their trains to arrive.

Robert Kaldenboch, 18, dressed in his uniform from the U.S. Merchant
Marine Academy on Long Island, looked around wide-eyed at the crowd.

"There are more cows than people where I'm from," the Texas native
said as he waited for his train. "So this is quite a change."

Milenko Kindl
Banja Luka
Banjaluka

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TOPIC: Milenko Kindl hohjdfioejdwedj[0edjkw0
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/fedfb84028cec284?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Nov 21 2007 4:31 am
From: Milenko Kindl