Saturday, August 14, 2010

misc.consumers.frugal-living - 25 new messages in 8 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

* 37 Days To Clean My Credit! - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/02fd06f9597c4fbb?hl=en
* Leaking Parker ball pen - 9 messages, 7 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/541de4e96f70cb4f?hl=en
* GERMAN GIRLS HOT SEX VIDEOS. - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/b01c74ee2885af27?hl=en
* Discount cheapsale Artful Dodger Jeans <free shipping paypal payment> - 1
messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/6e8f80263e12463a?hl=en
* What type of cyclist are you? - 4 messages, 2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/7ceb57ef5a29c258?hl=en
* $14.50 to pick up my mail ??!!? bogus, or not? - 3 messages, 3 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/8acb8ab6c8c79e7a?hl=en
* How to cook corn meal fine - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/404810c22fe27559?hl=en
* Cycling Copenhagen through American eyes - 5 messages, 2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/85edac9c2ebe5d06?hl=en

==============================================================================
TOPIC: 37 Days To Clean My Credit!
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/02fd06f9597c4fbb?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 13 2010 11:39 pm
From: bambang riwanto

Learn how I deleted 19 negative items and
boosted my credit score 135 in 19 days!
http://gettycredit.com/37-days-to-clean-credit-review


Cheer :)

b4mb4nku
Supervisor
http://www.gogonai.info/?id:b4mb4nku

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Leaking Parker ball pen
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/541de4e96f70cb4f?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 9 ==
Date: Sat, Aug 14 2010 2:02 am
From: "michael adams"

"geoff" <troll@uk-diy.org> wrote in message news:ZF$ubxf0vdZMFwwF@demon.co.uk...
> In message <8cm3umFe4gU1@mid.individual.net>, michael adams
> <mjadams25@ukonline.co.uk> writes
> >/
> >"geoff" <troll@uk-diy.org> wrote in message
> >news:C3FI3rPfybZMFwxp@demon.co.uk...
> >> In message <8clpjnFne4U1@mid.individual.net>, michael adams
> >> <mjadams25@ukonline.co.uk> writes
> >> >
> >> >"john hamilton" <bluestar95@mail.invalid> wrote in message
> >> >news:i448pu$qjp$1@news.eternal-september.org...
> >> >> I thought Parker ball pens were not supposed to leak, mine has even though
> >> >> it's not been stored upside down.
> >> >>
> >> >> It's very sticky inside. Is there any good way to clean it out?
> >> >>Thanks for
> >> >> advice.
> >> >
> >> >Isopropyl alcohol, obtainable from a store chemist but quite expensive.
> >>
> >> About £5/litre
> >
> >
> >The last time I bought any it cost £6.99 for 500ml, well over twice
> >that. The label is still on the bottle. With store chemists who
> >actually stock it being thin on the ground, you have to take what
> >you can find.
> >
> >While it may be cheaper in bulk, isopropyl alcohol is highly
> >inflammable. And so buying a litre or more for occasional use
> >in cleaning tape heads and the like, is not only hazardous
> >but probably a false economy as well. Unless that is, additional
> >uses can be found for it.
> >
> It is the only other alcohol, other than ethyl, that is not poisonous to
> drink

Handy Hint no 387:

"Isopropyl alcohol is oxidized by the liver into acetone by alcohol dehydrogenase."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isopropyl_alcohol

So if you're clean out of acetone but have plenty of IPA handy
you can always make your own. Just make sure you wear gloves
when handling the stuff, and don't spill any on anything plastic
- such as vinyl floor tiles and toilet seats.


>
> 12 litres last me about 3 months
>
> Ah £5.61/l for 12 litres


>
> http://cpc.farnell.com/pro-power/ppc104/ipa-cleaning-solvent/dp/SA01885?i
> n_merch=Featured%20Products&MER=e-bb45-00001001


Ah, but us ordinary punters can't reclaim the VAT and would only be buying
one at a time so that makes it £7.23/ per litre plus a £5.95 handling charge
which comes out at £14.18 per litre. Which in total works out at exactly 20p
more than...guess what ?


michael adams

...

>
>
>
> --
> geoff

== 2 of 9 ==
Date: Sat, Aug 14 2010 2:18 am
From: "michael adams"

"michael adams" <mjadams25@ukonline.co.uk> wrote in message
news:8cn4a1Fbd6U1@mid.individual.net...
>
> "geoff" <troll@uk-diy.org> wrote in message news:ZF$ubxf0vdZMFwwF@demon.co.uk...
> > In message <8cm3umFe4gU1@mid.individual.net>, michael adams
> > <mjadams25@ukonline.co.uk> writes
> > >/
> > >"geoff" <troll@uk-diy.org> wrote in message
> > >news:C3FI3rPfybZMFwxp@demon.co.uk...
> > >> In message <8clpjnFne4U1@mid.individual.net>, michael adams
> > >> <mjadams25@ukonline.co.uk> writes
> > >> >
> > >> >"john hamilton" <bluestar95@mail.invalid> wrote in message
> > >> >news:i448pu$qjp$1@news.eternal-september.org...
> > >> >> I thought Parker ball pens were not supposed to leak, mine has even though
> > >> >> it's not been stored upside down.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> It's very sticky inside. Is there any good way to clean it out?
> > >> >>Thanks for
> > >> >> advice.
> > >> >
> > >> >Isopropyl alcohol, obtainable from a store chemist but quite expensive.
> > >>
> > >> About £5/litre
> > >
> > >
> > >The last time I bought any it cost £6.99 for 500ml, well over twice
> > >that. The label is still on the bottle. With store chemists who
> > >actually stock it being thin on the ground, you have to take what
> > >you can find.
> > >
> > >While it may be cheaper in bulk, isopropyl alcohol is highly
> > >inflammable. And so buying a litre or more for occasional use
> > >in cleaning tape heads and the like, is not only hazardous
> > >but probably a false economy as well. Unless that is, additional
> > >uses can be found for it.
> > >
> > It is the only other alcohol, other than ethyl, that is not poisonous to
> > drink
>
> Handy Hint no 387:
>
> "Isopropyl alcohol is oxidized by the liver into acetone by alcohol dehydrogenase."
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isopropyl_alcohol
>
> So if you're clean out of acetone but have plenty of IPA handy
> you can always make your own. Just make sure you wear gloves
> when handling the stuff, and don't spill any on anything plastic
> - such as vinyl floor tiles and toilet seats.
>
>
> >
> > 12 litres last me about 3 months
> >
> > Ah £5.61/l for 12 litres
>
>
> >
> > http://cpc.farnell.com/pro-power/ppc104/ipa-cleaning-solvent/dp/SA01885?i
> > n_merch=Featured%20Products&MER=e-bb45-00001001
>
>
> Ah, but us ordinary punters can't reclaim the VAT and would only be buying
> one at a time so that makes it £7.23/ per litre plus a £5.95 handling charge
> which comes out at £14.18 per litre.

Er no. That comes to £13.18 per litre


> Which in total works out at exactly 20p
> more than...guess what ?


Something costing £12.98 per litre ?


michael adams

...

>
>
> michael adams
>
> ...
>
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > geoff
>
>
>


== 3 of 9 ==
Date: Sat, Aug 14 2010 2:23 am
From: Clams <"Clams"@drunkenclam.com>


Smitty Two wrote:
> In article <8clpjnFne4U1@mid.individual.net>,
> "michael adams" <mjadams25@ukonline.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>>Isopropyl alcohol, obtainable from a store chemist but quite expensive.
>
>
> IPA is a dollar a pint in the U.S. IOW, about the same as bottled water.


You must be buying some really special water.

I've been getting my Poland Springs water at less than $0.13 per pint
bottle - 24 pints for $3 (not taxed here & no bottle deposit).


== 4 of 9 ==
Date: Sat, Aug 14 2010 8:00 am
From: Smitty Two


In article <i45n9q$p8u$1@news.eternal-september.org>,
Clams <"Clams"@drunkenclam.com> wrote:

> Smitty Two wrote:
> > In article <8clpjnFne4U1@mid.individual.net>,
> > "michael adams" <mjadams25@ukonline.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Isopropyl alcohol, obtainable from a store chemist but quite expensive.
> >
> >
> > IPA is a dollar a pint in the U.S. IOW, about the same as bottled water.
>
>
> You must be buying some really special water.
>
> I've been getting my Poland Springs water at less than $0.13 per pint
> bottle - 24 pints for $3 (not taxed here & no bottle deposit).

Actually, I buy drinking water for $0.35/gallon, IOW ~ $0.04/pint. But,
in the typical convenience store, a single bottle runs about $1. My
point, of course, isn't that water is expensive, but that IPA is cheap.


== 5 of 9 ==
Date: Sat, Aug 14 2010 11:22 am
From: info_at_1-script_dot_com@foo.com (DA)


responding to
http://www.homeownershub.com/cleaning/Leaking-Parker-ball-pen-10625-.htm
DA wrote:

john hamilton wrote:


> I thought Parker ball pens were not supposed to leak, mine has even
> though it's not been stored upside down.

Could have been a bad OEM cartridge i.e. Parker-compatible instead of
Parker. That or you can no longer trust anyone's quality [sigh] Toyota's
recent debacle comes to mind.

> It's very sticky inside. Is there any good way to clean it out? Thanks
> for advice.

Pen itself should clean nicely with alcohol, as others suggested. But if
you are trying to clean a fabric it stained rather than the pen itself -
alcohol will make even a bigger mess than it already is. The alcohol will
make the stain just larger albeit less dense in color. Might as well just
throw the item out.

-------------------------------------
/\_/\
((@v@)) NIGHT
():::() OWL
VV-VV

== 6 of 9 ==
Date: Sat, Aug 14 2010 12:06 pm
From: "Spamlet"

"john hamilton" <bluestar95@mail.invalid> wrote in message
news:i448pu$qjp$1@news.eternal-september.org...
>I thought Parker ball pens were not supposed to leak, mine has even though
>it's not been stored upside down.
>
> It's very sticky inside. Is there any good way to clean it out? Thanks
> for advice.

Whilst not wishing to spoil the enthusiastic discussion of the properties
and prices of IPA - which is less flammable than meths, and to me used to be
cheaper than chips as I used to pump it into 25L drums, as a general cleaner
in the print trade - I should point out that, as ballpoint ink is *oil
based*, readers probably already have a cheaper cleaner in their cupboard
already: white spirit. I think the preference for IPA in 'the trade' is as
much for its quick evaporation as anything. It does dissolve both polar and
non polar substances, but I doubt if it is as effective, for an oil based
(non-polar) ink, as a non polar solvent (white spirit, paraffin, petrol etc)
would be. As I've noted before, every DIYer should keep a selection of the
various types of solvent to hand, so you can always find the right 'tool'
for the job.

S


== 7 of 9 ==
Date: Sat, Aug 14 2010 4:21 pm
From: Frank Erskine


On Sat, 14 Aug 2010 18:22:25 +0000, info_at_1-script_dot_com@foo.com
(DA) wrote:

>responding to
>http://www.homeownershub.com/cleaning/Leaking-Parker-ball-pen-10625-.htm
>DA wrote:
>
>john hamilton wrote:
>
>
>> I thought Parker ball pens were not supposed to leak, mine has even
>> though it's not been stored upside down.
>
>Could have been a bad OEM cartridge i.e. Parker-compatible instead of
>Parker. That or you can no longer trust anyone's quality [sigh] Toyota's
>recent debacle comes to mind.

I believe Parker 'ink' pens are now made in France 8-(((

I don't know about their cartridges since I use a refillable (from an
ink bottle!) insert-thing, but Quink is also French, according a quick
glance under the bottle.

--
Frank Erskine


== 8 of 9 ==
Date: Sat, Aug 14 2010 4:44 pm
From: geoff


In message <4n8e665o9tqi6obvbl7qp7dd7p703dh4tf@4ax.com>, Frank Erskine
<frank.erskine@btinternet.com> writes
>On Sat, 14 Aug 2010 18:22:25 +0000, info_at_1-script_dot_com@foo.com
>(DA) wrote:
>
>>responding to
>>http://www.homeownershub.com/cleaning/Leaking-Parker-ball-pen-10625-.htm
>>DA wrote:
>>
>>john hamilton wrote:
>>
>>
>>> I thought Parker ball pens were not supposed to leak, mine has even
>>> though it's not been stored upside down.
>>
>>Could have been a bad OEM cartridge i.e. Parker-compatible instead of
>>Parker. That or you can no longer trust anyone's quality [sigh] Toyota's
>>recent debacle comes to mind.
>
>I believe Parker 'ink' pens are now made in France 8-(((
>
Le sabotage

--
geoff


== 9 of 9 ==
Date: Sat, Aug 14 2010 5:05 pm
From: "Spamlet"

"Frank Erskine" <frank.erskine@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:4n8e665o9tqi6obvbl7qp7dd7p703dh4tf@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 14 Aug 2010 18:22:25 +0000, info_at_1-script_dot_com@foo.com
> (DA) wrote:
>
>>responding to
>>http://www.homeownershub.com/cleaning/Leaking-Parker-ball-pen-10625-.htm
>>DA wrote:
>>
>>john hamilton wrote:
>>
>>
>>> I thought Parker ball pens were not supposed to leak, mine has even
>>> though it's not been stored upside down.
>>
>>Could have been a bad OEM cartridge i.e. Parker-compatible instead of
>>Parker. That or you can no longer trust anyone's quality [sigh] Toyota's
>>recent debacle comes to mind.
>
> I believe Parker 'ink' pens are now made in France 8-(((
>
> I don't know about their cartridges since I use a refillable (from an
> ink bottle!) insert-thing, but Quink is also French, according a quick
> glance under the bottle.
>
> --
> Frank Erskine

If, like most people nowadays, you are doing most of your writing via a
keyboard, and adopt a pen only for cards and signatures, you will probably
find your fountain pen, and even good old Rotring, need cleaning out every
time you want to use them. You may find, as I have, that good old fashioned
dip pens with a good selection of nibs, and a range of small bottles of
coloured inks, are actually more convenient and fun to write with. They
only need a wipe with a tissue between uses. A dip mapping pen is still
excellent for fine lines too.

S

==============================================================================
TOPIC: GERMAN GIRLS HOT SEX VIDEOS.
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/b01c74ee2885af27?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Aug 14 2010 6:10 am
From: Hot Hot


GERMAN GIRLS HOT SEX VIDEOS At http://simpletoget.co.cc

Due to high sex content, i have hidden the videos in an image.in that
website on Right side below search box click on image and watch
videos in all angles.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Discount cheapsale Artful Dodger Jeans <free shipping paypal payment>
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/6e8f80263e12463a?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Aug 14 2010 6:53 am
From: "www.sneaker-shop08.com"


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==============================================================================
TOPIC: What type of cyclist are you?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/7ceb57ef5a29c258?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Sat, Aug 14 2010 8:15 am
From: "His Highness the TibetanMonkey, Creator of the Movement of Tantra-
Hammock"


Not all cyclists are created equal, of course, and some are "surviving
on sidewalks" (90% around here), some are flying by on carbon bikes
(the weekend warriors), and some are into UTILITY/FUN BICYCLING. I
think often the first two types are the archetypal image in the public
mind, and some of their vices vitiate the image of the whole cycling
community. How far from the truth, huh? The problem is compounded when
those at the top of the cycling chain, speak for all as if their
reality was the only reality. I remember someone who honestly said,
"I'm an elite rider, but not elitist." Big difference, huh?

There's some difference also in the utility-fun class itself. Some
people are happy with 1 mile of pavement and can do it 10 times, while
others want to make it to the market. Let's say the first is more
selfish oriented while the second is unselfish and it's committed to
saving the planet, etc.

Then there's another breed who stay indoors and get a workout without
"the stresses of the road." I hope things will change around here or I
may be forced to join the latter group...

"Spinning was born in 1987, when Jonathan Goldberg (a k a Johnny G), a
South African-born cyclist, was training for a cross-country bike
race. His wife was pregnant at the time, and he didn't want to be away
for long stints. So he installed a handful of stationary bikes in his
garage, devised a training program to simulate outdoor terrain and
invited cycling buddies to join him.

... it was a workout for determined cyclists who wanted to train
without the perils of outdoor riding."

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/24/fashion/24Fitness.html

***

Oh, before I forget, I think the survivors should be sent to the road.
The sidewalk, of course, is for pedestrians.


-------------------------------------------------------------

THE WISE TIBETAN MONKEY SAYS

"Not all species are created equal but they all need space"

http://webspawner.com/users/BANANAREVOLUTION

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Sat, Aug 14 2010 9:47 am
From: "His Highness the TibetanMonkey, Creator of the Movement of Tantra-
Hammock & the Stationary Bicycle to burn the calories"


On Aug 14, 9:20 am, "Tom" <t...@comcast.net> wrote:
> "His Highness the TibetanMonkey, Creator of the Movement of Tantra-Hammock &
> the Stationary Bicycle to burn the calories" <comandante.ban...@yahoo.com>
> wrote in messagenews:d72a100b-bf42-4436-ae7e-d366e0f8602d@x25g2000yqj.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > Not all cyclists are created equal, of course, and some are "surviving
> > on sidewalks" (90% around here), some are flying by on carbon bikes
> > (the weekend warriors), and some are into UTILITY/FUN BICYCLING. I
> > think often the first two types are the archetypal image in the public
> > mind, and some of their vices vitiate the image of the whole cycling
> > community. How far from the truth, huh? The problem is compounded when
> > those at the top of the cycling chain, speak for all as if their
> > reality was the only reality. I remember someone who honestly said,
> > "I'm an elite rider, but not elitist." Big difference, huh?
>
> > There's some difference also in the utility-fun class itself. Some
> > people are happy with 1 mile of pavement and can do it 10 times, while
> > others want to make it to the market. Let's say the first is more
> > selfish oriented while the second is unselfish and it's committed to
> > saving the planet, etc.
>
> > Then there's another breed who stay indoors and get a workout without
> > "the stresses of the road." I hope things will change around here or I
> > may be forced to join the latter group...
>
> > "Spinning was born in 1987, when Jonathan Goldberg (a k a Johnny G), a
> > South African-born cyclist, was training for a cross-country bike
> > race. His wife was pregnant at the time, and he didn't want to be away
> > for long stints. So he installed a handful of stationary bikes in his
> > garage, devised a training program to simulate outdoor terrain and
> > invited cycling buddies to join him.
>
> > ... it was a workout for determined cyclists who wanted to train
> > without the perils of outdoor riding."
>
> >http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/24/fashion/24Fitness.html
>
> > ***
>
> > Oh, before I forget, I think the survivors should be sent to the road.
> > The sidewalk, of course, is for pedestrians.
>
> > -------------------------------------------------------------
>
> > THE WISE TIBETAN MONKEY SAYS
>
> > "Not all species are created equal but they all need space"
>
> >http://webspawner.com/users/BANANAREVOLUTION
>
> There are 3 kinds of cyclist
> the first rides on safe trails and enjoys the day
> the second rides on highways dodging autos and creating unsafe conditions
> and the third are old enough to buy autos and enjoy traveling in comfort

The latter only produces a couch potato and feeds war, pollution, etc.

The second may lead to the revolution.

The first is neither good nor bad.

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Sat, Aug 14 2010 11:01 am
From: "His Highness the TibetanMonkey, Creator of the Movement of Tantra-
Hammock & the Stationary Bicycle to burn the calories"


On Aug 14, 9:53 am, "JoeSpareBedroom" <newstr...@frontiernet.net>
wrote:
> I'm the kind that won't use public roads. When we stop allowing blind or
> dead people to drive automobiles, I'll be happy to bike more often.

Blind and brain dead people are happy consumers of this society and
they must be pampered and aided by smart cars loaded with computers,
air bags and anti-lock brakes as well as armored SUVs.

Such is the fate of the roads out there.

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Sat, Aug 14 2010 12:31 pm
From: "His Highness the TibetanMonkey, Creator of the Movement of Tantra-
Hammock"


On Aug 14, 11:33 am, "Timothy 1:4a" <canfanor...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I used to ride in the street and travel between cities on a bicycle.
> Once, thanks to a detour, I was riding on the Trans-Canada highway
> beside the trucks.
>
> Nowadays, I live in a car-friendly suburb and am forced to keep to the
> sidewalks :-( It's illegal, but the only safe place to be. I yield
> to pedestrians and go slow around them.

Welcome to the "Survivor's Club of North America"...

Yep, you are not alone. I've been there, done that, but it irritates
me that cars coming out of driveways block me pretending not to see
me, and it's not even safer, besides other safety issues like hitting
a pole head on. My girlfriend is a little clumsy and has fallen a
couple of times, one almost onto the road.

Have you considered a SPINNING BIKE? I've got a tremendous price on
one for under $300, and got another RECUMBENT for my partner for under
$100 (regular $200). I guess we can call this last club "Cyclists
Anonymous."


==============================================================================
TOPIC: $14.50 to pick up my mail ??!!? bogus, or not?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/8acb8ab6c8c79e7a?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Sat, Aug 14 2010 8:41 am
From: rvanson


On Fri, 23 Jul 2010 12:42:43 -0400, "Lou" <lpogoda@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
>"rvanson" <rvanson@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:fbch469k5ikrqrq4c56b4cpt9l99j9vlmj@4ax.com...
>> On Thu, 1 Jul 2010 21:27:10 -0400, "The Henchman" <yup@yup.org> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Sorry I have no answer for you. It seems we are required to do
>>>> everyone else's jobs nowadays. Hence, all the self-checkouts (which I
>>>> refuse to use). Remember when people pumped your gas, checked out and
>>>> BAGGED your groceries, and delivered and picked up your mail? Oh it
>>>> was so long ago. Welcome to America.
>>>
>>>Oddly enuf they got rid of self checkouts at the walmart near my work.
>>>It's
>>>a 190 000 square foot building. They had 10 self checkouts and all of
>>>them
>>>are now gone. Theft, inability of customers to work the machines and the
>>>cost of maintence on the machines.
>>
>> What else did they expect? Walmart shoppers, most of whom dont even
>> have a GED, are going to use something as simple as a self-checkout
>> machine?
>>
>> It just proves how stupid most humans are.
>
>Talk about jumping to conclusions. Maybe most people don't use the machines
>because they realize it would eliminate jobs.
>

The internet has eliminated jobs. Most people are too lazy to check
thier groceries.


== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Sat, Aug 14 2010 9:41 am
From: Clams <"Clams"@drunkenclam.com>


rvanson wrote:
>>
>>Talk about jumping to conclusions. Maybe most people don't use the machines
>>because they realize it would eliminate jobs.
>>
>
>
> The internet has eliminated jobs. Most people are too lazy to check
> thier groceries.


Next you'll be expected to sweep the floor while shopping and clean the
toilets on your way out of the store.

Self checkout is a good reason to boycott stores that have limited lines
with cashiers (Home Depot being a prime example).


== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Sat, Aug 14 2010 10:17 am
From: "Clincher"


"Clams" <"Clams"@drunkenclam.com> wrote in message
news:i46h0f$pcn$1@news.eternal-september.org...
> rvanson wrote:
>>>
>>>Talk about jumping to conclusions. Maybe most people don't use the
>>>machines because they realize it would eliminate jobs.
>>
>>
>> The internet has eliminated jobs. Most people are too lazy to check
>> thier groceries.
>
>
> Next you'll be expected to sweep the floor while shopping and clean the
> toilets on your way out of the store.
>
> Self checkout is a good reason to boycott stores that have limited lines
> with cashiers (Home Depot being a prime example).

Nah, I applaud any reason to eliminate unnecessary face-time with surly
min-wage clerks (or worse, clerks that try to engage in phony friendly small
talk about your purchases.) Makes shopping much more pleasant.
Unfortunately, my usual grocery outlet doesn't have self-checkout but I do
enjoy the difference when buying online.

Floor-sweeping and toilet-cleaning don't involve customer face-time so they
don't count.


==============================================================================
TOPIC: How to cook corn meal fine
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/404810c22fe27559?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Aug 14 2010 11:31 am
From: noel888


No d irections at all on how to prepare this. Googled it and all i got
were places where they want all your personal info before giving a
recipe. I'm looking for the easiest and simplest way, if there is such
a way. Thanks

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Cycling Copenhagen through American eyes
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/85edac9c2ebe5d06?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Sat, Aug 14 2010 1:15 pm
From: Jim A


On 08/14/2010 12:04 AM, His Highness the TibetanMonkey, Creator of the
Movement of Tantra-Hammock wrote:
> On Aug 13, 12:15 pm, Jim A<j...@averyjim.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>> I wouldn't recommend /holding/ the lane - just take it for as long as
>> you need it then give it back for a bit.
>
> This sounds like the war of the trenches. How can I give back a
> position I just earned? ;)

With good grace.


--
www.slowbicyclemovement.org - enjoy the ride


== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Sat, Aug 14 2010 1:23 pm
From: "His Highness the TibetanMonkey, Creator of the Movement of Tantra-
Hammock"


On Aug 14, 1:15 pm, Jim A <j...@averyjim.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On 08/14/2010 12:04 AM, His Highness the TibetanMonkey, Creator of the
>
> Movement of Tantra-Hammock wrote:
> > On Aug 13, 12:15 pm, Jim A<j...@averyjim.myzen.co.uk>  wrote:
> >> I wouldn't recommend /holding/ the lane - just take it for as long as
> >> you need it then give it back for a bit.
>
> > This sounds like the war of the trenches. How can I give back a
> > position I just earned? ;)
>
> With good grace.

Over my dead body. ;)

I think we should either take the lane or take up indoor cycling.

Taking the lane doesn't need to be more dangerous than fighting a
bull.

== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Sat, Aug 14 2010 1:27 pm
From: Jim A


On 08/14/2010 09:23 PM, His Highness the TibetanMonkey, Creator of the
Movement of Tantra-Hammock wrote:
> On Aug 14, 1:15 pm, Jim A<j...@averyjim.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 08/14/2010 12:04 AM, His Highness the TibetanMonkey, Creator of the
>>
>> Movement of Tantra-Hammock wrote:
>>> On Aug 13, 12:15 pm, Jim A<j...@averyjim.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> I wouldn't recommend /holding/ the lane - just take it for as long as
>>>> you need it then give it back for a bit.
>>
>>> This sounds like the war of the trenches. How can I give back a
>>> position I just earned? ;)
>>
>> With good grace.
>
> Over my dead body. ;)
>
> I think we should either take the lane or take up indoor cycling.
>
> Taking the lane doesn't need to be more dangerous than fighting a
> bull.
>

I hope you enjoy your indoor cycling. One thing is for sure - it's even
slower than any other kind. 0 mph all the way ...

--
www.slowbicyclemovement.org - enjoy the ride


== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Sat, Aug 14 2010 1:42 pm
From: "His Highness the TibetanMonkey, Creator of the Movement of Tantra-
Hammock"


On Aug 14, 1:27 pm, Jim A <j...@averyjim.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On 08/14/2010 09:23 PM, His Highness the TibetanMonkey, Creator of the
>
>
>
> Movement of Tantra-Hammock wrote:
> > On Aug 14, 1:15 pm, Jim A<j...@averyjim.myzen.co.uk>  wrote:
> >> On 08/14/2010 12:04 AM, His Highness the TibetanMonkey, Creator of the
>
> >> Movement of Tantra-Hammock wrote:
> >>> On Aug 13, 12:15 pm, Jim A<j...@averyjim.myzen.co.uk>    wrote:
> >>>> I wouldn't recommend /holding/ the lane - just take it for as long as
> >>>> you need it then give it back for a bit.
>
> >>> This sounds like the war of the trenches. How can I give back a
> >>> position I just earned? ;)
>
> >> With good grace.
>
> > Over my dead body. ;)
>
> > I think we should either take the lane or take up indoor cycling.
>
> > Taking the lane doesn't need to be more dangerous than fighting a
> > bull.
>
> I hope you enjoy your indoor cycling.  One thing is for sure - it's even
> slower than any other kind.  0 mph all the way ...
>
> --www.slowbicyclemovement.org- enjoy the ride

If you take "slow is better" to the end, then not moving makes sense.
What's the point of going to the market anyway? Call the delivery boy.


== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Sat, Aug 14 2010 2:34 pm
From: Jim A


On 08/14/2010 09:42 PM, His Highness the TibetanMonkey, Creator of the
Movement of Tantra-Hammock wrote:
> On Aug 14, 1:27 pm, Jim A<j...@averyjim.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 08/14/2010 09:23 PM, His Highness the TibetanMonkey, Creator of the
>>
>>
>>
>> Movement of Tantra-Hammock wrote:
>>> On Aug 14, 1:15 pm, Jim A<j...@averyjim.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 08/14/2010 12:04 AM, His Highness the TibetanMonkey, Creator of the
>>
>>>> Movement of Tantra-Hammock wrote:
>>>>> On Aug 13, 12:15 pm, Jim A<j...@averyjim.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> I wouldn't recommend /holding/ the lane - just take it for as long as
>>>>>> you need it then give it back for a bit.
>>
>>>>> This sounds like the war of the trenches. How can I give back a
>>>>> position I just earned? ;)
>>
>>>> With good grace.
>>
>>> Over my dead body. ;)
>>
>>> I think we should either take the lane or take up indoor cycling.
>>
>>> Taking the lane doesn't need to be more dangerous than fighting a
>>> bull.
>>
>> I hope you enjoy your indoor cycling. One thing is for sure - it's even
>> slower than any other kind. 0 mph all the way ...
>>
>> --www.slowbicyclemovement.org- enjoy the ride
>
> If you take "slow is better" to the end, then not moving makes sense.
> What's the point of going to the market anyway? Call the delivery boy.

He's riding a stationary bicycle too!

--
www.slowbicyclemovement.org - enjoy the ride


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misc.consumers.frugal-living - 22 new messages in 6 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

* Leaking Parker ball pen - 12 messages, 10 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/541de4e96f70cb4f?hl=en
* Spamming eBay auctions - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/fb1640cca76a4699?hl=en
* SSN for Job Applications - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/20cfbcd56071ad93?hl=en
* Cycling Copenhagen through American eyes - 6 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/85edac9c2ebe5d06?hl=en
* "Is God ever bored" and other tough questions - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/3ec442123446a5a6?hl=en
* 37 Days To Clean My Credit! - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/02fd06f9597c4fbb?hl=en

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Leaking Parker ball pen
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/541de4e96f70cb4f?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 12 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 13 2010 2:11 pm
From: AZ Nomad


On Fri, 13 Aug 2010 21:09:21 +0100, john hamilton <bluestar95@mail.invalid> wrote:
>I thought Parker ball pens were not supposed to leak, mine has even though
>it's not been stored upside down.

>It's very sticky inside. Is there any good way to clean it out? Thanks for
>advice.


soak it in gasoline
light it


== 2 of 12 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 13 2010 2:16 pm
From: "Ed Pawlowski"

"john hamilton" <bluestar95@mail.invalid> wrote in message
news:i448pu$qjp$1@news.eternal-september.org...
> I thought Parker ball pens were not supposed to leak, mine has even though
> it's not been stored upside down.
>
> It's very sticky inside. Is there any good way to clean it out? Thanks
> for advice.
>

Used to be that they would repair them. Try contacting Parker.

Never had one leak in the 45+ years I've used them, but it can happen, I
guess. If it was not upside down, I can't imagine what would cause it to
happen. I'd look for a crack in the refill.

Service Department
2333 N. Sumac Drive
Janesville WI 53545

email them at: SAS.US@newellco.com <SAS.US@newellco.com>

This warranty is granted by PARKER and applies in the US and Canada.
Your PARKER® writing instrument is guaranteed for two years from the date of
original purchase against defects in materials or workmanship. If found to
be defective
within the warranty period, your PARKER® product will be repaired or
replaced free of
charge. This warranty may be extended by registering your PARKER® writing
instrument at www.parkerpen.com

== 3 of 12 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 13 2010 2:43 pm
From: geoff


In message <8clpjnFne4U1@mid.individual.net>, michael adams
<mjadams25@ukonline.co.uk> writes
>
>"john hamilton" <bluestar95@mail.invalid> wrote in message
>news:i448pu$qjp$1@news.eternal-september.org...
>> I thought Parker ball pens were not supposed to leak, mine has even though
>> it's not been stored upside down.
>>
>> It's very sticky inside. Is there any good way to clean it out? Thanks for
>> advice.
>
>Isopropyl alcohol, obtainable from a store chemist but quite expensive.

About £5/litre

>
>At current prices vodka from the local Tesco should work out cheaper it
>should be equally effective and can be put to other uses.
>
>Methylated spirit would do equally well is it wasn't for the smell
>which again is why vodka is so popular.
>

--
geoff


== 4 of 12 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 13 2010 4:12 pm
From: Sjouke Burry


john hamilton wrote:
> I thought Parker ball pens were not supposed to leak, mine has even though
> it's not been stored upside down.
>
> It's very sticky inside. Is there any good way to clean it out? Thanks for
> advice.
>
>
Alcohol(dont drink it).


== 5 of 12 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 13 2010 4:30 pm
From: "Stormin Mormon"


I've found alcohol "dry gas" works nicely on ball pen ink. You can
either try to swab it out with Q-tips, or soak the pen barrel in
alcohol.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.


"john hamilton" <bluestar95@mail.invalid> wrote in message
news:i448pu$qjp$1@news.eternal-september.org...
I thought Parker ball pens were not supposed to leak, mine has even
though
it's not been stored upside down.

It's very sticky inside. Is there any good way to clean it out?
Thanks for
advice.

== 6 of 12 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 13 2010 4:50 pm
From: "michael adams"


/
"geoff" <troll@uk-diy.org> wrote in message news:C3FI3rPfybZMFwxp@demon.co.uk...
> In message <8clpjnFne4U1@mid.individual.net>, michael adams
> <mjadams25@ukonline.co.uk> writes
> >
> >"john hamilton" <bluestar95@mail.invalid> wrote in message
> >news:i448pu$qjp$1@news.eternal-september.org...
> >> I thought Parker ball pens were not supposed to leak, mine has even though
> >> it's not been stored upside down.
> >>
> >> It's very sticky inside. Is there any good way to clean it out? Thanks for
> >> advice.
> >
> >Isopropyl alcohol, obtainable from a store chemist but quite expensive.
>
> About £5/litre


The last time I bought any it cost £6.99 for 500ml, well over twice
that. The label is still on the bottle. With store chemists who
actually stock it being thin on the ground, you have to take what
you can find.

While it may be cheaper in bulk, isopropyl alcohol is highly
inflammable. And so buying a litre or more for occasional use
in cleaning tape heads and the like, is not only hazardous
but probably a false economy as well. Unless that is, additional
uses can be found for it.


michael adams

...

>
> >
> >At current prices vodka from the local Tesco should work out cheaper it
> >should be equally effective and can be put to other uses.
> >
> >Methylated spirit would do equally well is it wasn't for the smell
> >which again is why vodka is so popular.
> >
>
> --
> geoff


== 7 of 12 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 13 2010 4:57 pm
From: geoff


In message <8cm3umFe4gU1@mid.individual.net>, michael adams
<mjadams25@ukonline.co.uk> writes
>/
>"geoff" <troll@uk-diy.org> wrote in message
>news:C3FI3rPfybZMFwxp@demon.co.uk...
>> In message <8clpjnFne4U1@mid.individual.net>, michael adams
>> <mjadams25@ukonline.co.uk> writes
>> >
>> >"john hamilton" <bluestar95@mail.invalid> wrote in message
>> >news:i448pu$qjp$1@news.eternal-september.org...
>> >> I thought Parker ball pens were not supposed to leak, mine has even though
>> >> it's not been stored upside down.
>> >>
>> >> It's very sticky inside. Is there any good way to clean it out?
>> >>Thanks for
>> >> advice.
>> >
>> >Isopropyl alcohol, obtainable from a store chemist but quite expensive.
>>
>> About £5/litre
>
>
>The last time I bought any it cost £6.99 for 500ml, well over twice
>that. The label is still on the bottle. With store chemists who
>actually stock it being thin on the ground, you have to take what
>you can find.
>
>While it may be cheaper in bulk, isopropyl alcohol is highly
>inflammable. And so buying a litre or more for occasional use
>in cleaning tape heads and the like, is not only hazardous
>but probably a false economy as well. Unless that is, additional
>uses can be found for it.
>
It is the only other alcohol, other than ethyl, that is not poisonous to
drink

12 litres last me about 3 months

Ah £5.61/l for 12 litres

http://cpc.farnell.com/pro-power/ppc104/ipa-cleaning-solvent/dp/SA01885?i
n_merch=Featured%20Products&MER=e-bb45-00001001

--
geoff


== 8 of 12 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 13 2010 5:37 pm
From: The Natural Philosopher


michael adams wrote:
> /
> "geoff" <troll@uk-diy.org> wrote in message news:C3FI3rPfybZMFwxp@demon.co.uk...
>> In message <8clpjnFne4U1@mid.individual.net>, michael adams
>> <mjadams25@ukonline.co.uk> writes
>>> "john hamilton" <bluestar95@mail.invalid> wrote in message
>>> news:i448pu$qjp$1@news.eternal-september.org...
>>>> I thought Parker ball pens were not supposed to leak, mine has even though
>>>> it's not been stored upside down.
>>>>
>>>> It's very sticky inside. Is there any good way to clean it out? Thanks for
>>>> advice.
>>> Isopropyl alcohol, obtainable from a store chemist but quite expensive.
>> About £5/litre
>
>
> The last time I bought any it cost £6.99 for 500ml, well over twice
> that. The label is still on the bottle. With store chemists who
> actually stock it being thin on the ground, you have to take what
> you can find.
>
> While it may be cheaper in bulk, isopropyl alcohol is highly
> inflammable. And so buying a litre or more for occasional use
> in cleaning tape heads and the like, is not only hazardous
> but probably a false economy as well. Unless that is, additional
> uses can be found for it.
>

Its the main constituent in windscreen antifreeze IIRC.
Its not that inflammable, and there are dozens of DIY uses for it.

Cleaning computer keyboards is one. :-)


>


== 9 of 12 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 13 2010 5:38 pm
From: The Natural Philosopher


geoff wrote:

>>
> It is the only other alcohol, other than ethyl, that is not poisonous to
> drink
>
> 12 litres last me about 3 months
>

So, have you been to AA yet?

:-)


== 10 of 12 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 13 2010 5:51 pm
From: Ericp


On Sat, 14 Aug 2010 00:50:16 +0100, "michael adams"
<mjadams25@ukonline.co.uk> wrote:

>/
>"geoff" <troll@uk-diy.org> wrote in message news:C3FI3rPfybZMFwxp@demon.co.uk...
>> In message <8clpjnFne4U1@mid.individual.net>, michael adams
>> <mjadams25@ukonline.co.uk> writes
>> >
>> >"john hamilton" <bluestar95@mail.invalid> wrote in message
>> >news:i448pu$qjp$1@news.eternal-september.org...
>> >> I thought Parker ball pens were not supposed to leak, mine has even though
>> >> it's not been stored upside down.
>> >>
>> >> It's very sticky inside. Is there any good way to clean it out? Thanks for
>> >> advice.
>> >
>> >Isopropyl alcohol, obtainable from a store chemist but quite expensive.
>>
>> About £5/litre
>
>
>The last time I bought any it cost £6.99 for 500ml, well over twice
>that. The label is still on the bottle. With store chemists who
>actually stock it being thin on the ground, you have to take what
>you can find.
>
>While it may be cheaper in bulk, isopropyl alcohol is highly
>inflammable. And so buying a litre or more for occasional use
>in cleaning tape heads and the like, is not only hazardous
>but probably a false economy as well. Unless that is, additional
>uses can be found for it.
>
buy from ebay. The postage is more than the cost of 5L of IPA. 99%
stuff.

We use it for cleaning and it is good for killing flies at the moment.

== 11 of 12 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 13 2010 6:06 pm
From: Smitty Two


In article <8clpjnFne4U1@mid.individual.net>,
"michael adams" <mjadams25@ukonline.co.uk> wrote:

> Isopropyl alcohol, obtainable from a store chemist but quite expensive.

IPA is a dollar a pint in the U.S. IOW, about the same as bottled water.


== 12 of 12 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 13 2010 8:15 pm
From: mm


On Sat, 14 Aug 2010 00:50:16 +0100, "michael adams"
<mjadams25@ukonline.co.uk> wrote:

>/
>"geoff" <troll@uk-diy.org> wrote in message news:C3FI3rPfybZMFwxp@demon.co.uk...
>> In message <8clpjnFne4U1@mid.individual.net>, michael adams
>> <mjadams25@ukonline.co.uk> writes
>> >
>> >"john hamilton" <bluestar95@mail.invalid> wrote in message
>> >news:i448pu$qjp$1@news.eternal-september.org...
>> >> I thought Parker ball pens were not supposed to leak, mine has even though
>> >> it's not been stored upside down.
>> >>
>> >> It's very sticky inside. Is there any good way to clean it out? Thanks for
>> >> advice.
>> >
>> >Isopropyl alcohol, obtainable from a store chemist but quite expensive.
>>
>> About £5/litre
>
>
>The last time I bought any it cost £6.99 for 500ml, well over twice
>that. The label is still on the bottle. With store chemists who

That's amazing. The last time I bought some it was 70% isopropyl
alcohol and it was about 2 dollars for a pint, 473 ml.

That was about 2 months ago. I thought I would need to get the oil
soot out of my computer, but the stuff turned out to not be sticky,
and will blow right off what ever it is sitting on, or be sucked off
with a vacuum cleaner.

>actually stock it being thin on the ground, you have to take what
>you can find.
>
>While it may be cheaper in bulk, isopropyl alcohol is highly
>inflammable. And so buying a litre or more for occasional use
>in cleaning tape heads and the like, is not only hazardous
>but probably a false economy as well. Unless that is, additional
>uses can be found for it.
>michael adams

Don't they make little stoves or lamps that run on this stuff?

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Spamming eBay auctions
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/fb1640cca76a4699?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 13 2010 2:25 pm
From: Clams <"Clams"@drunkenclam.com>


ClothesOut wrote:
> Just listed over 20 items for new and gently-used merchandise.
> I'm PayPal verified and have a 100% feedback rating.

You are also a confirmed spammer. If enough readers complaint to eBay,
your account can be terminated.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: SSN for Job Applications
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/20cfbcd56071ad93?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 13 2010 2:46 pm
From: The Real Bev


On 08/12/10 22:44, rvanson wrote:

> They are doing alot more then that.
>
> There is a company called Hireright that is a huge datbase for
> informtaion on many individuals.
>
> Once you are on the database your info is almost impossible to have
> removed or altered. Welcome to the Brave New World of the USSA.

Perhaps the US could earn money by renting out the FBI database. Or
maybe they already have...

--
Cheers, Bev
==================================================================
"Don't sweat it -- it's not real life. It's only ones and zeroes."
-- spaf (1988?)

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Cycling Copenhagen through American eyes
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/85edac9c2ebe5d06?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 6 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 13 2010 3:54 pm
From: "His Highness the TibetanMonkey, Creator of the Movement of Tantra-
Hammock"


On Aug 13, 8:36 am, Peter Cole <peter_c...@verizon.net> wrote:
> His Highness the TibetanMonkey, Creator of the Movement of
>
>
>
> Tantra-Hammock wrote:
> > On Aug 13, 5:46 am, Peter Cole <peter_c...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >> Frank Studt wrote:
> >>> Am 12.08.2010 14:22, schrieb Peter Cole:
> >>>> Frank Studt wrote:
> >>>>> Am 11.08.2010 18:36, schrieb TibetanMonkey
> >>>>>> It's a hopeful video and also sad.
> >>>>> The sadest thing in the video are the bike lanes and the cycle paths
> >>>>> and the damn fools who believe they make cycling saver and better. Its
> >>>>> a lie. A before-after study for the city of Copenhagen shows that the
> >>>>> building of separated bicycle facilities worsened the safety of
> >>>>> cyclists.
> >>>>>http://www.trafitec.dk/pub/bicycle%20tracks%20and%20lanes.pdf
> >>>>> Actually there is no kind of scientific evidence that separated
> >>>>> bicycle facilities have a positive impact on the safety of cyclists.
> >>>>> The opposite is true (the study above is not the first that shows the
> >>>>> negative effects of cyling facilities on riders safety). There isnt
> >>>>> even a prove that more people ride bikes if you built bike lanes.
> >>>> This is a biased interpretation of that study.
> >>> Not at all.
> >>>> Just from the abstract,
> >>> did you even read further?
> >> Yes. I've read this study before.
>
> >>>> "tracks" caused an increase of 10% in crashes
> >>>> and injuries, and a 20% increase in cycling.
> >>> Actually the question what has increased the bicycle traffic mileage
> >>> isn't really the question asked in the study.
> >> Apparently it was, explicitly.
>
> >> The study, according to the author, examined 3 issues: safety, effect on
> >> traffic (motor and bicycle), and cyclist's "perceived risk and
> >> satisfaction". That is stated clearly.
>
> >>> The author didnt even
> >>> check for different reasons for the increase in cycling. The core
> >>> question of the study asks for the road safety of cyclists before and
> >>> after building bicycle facilities and the answer speaks against
> >>> separation. Road safety has worsened.
> >> Yes, that is clearly stated.
>
> >>> The data used in the study isnt adequate to check for a causal
> >>> connection between infrastructure and mileage.
> >> So you claim.
>
> >>> Here some important
> >>> factors you need to consider if you are testing for such hypothesis (and
> >>> the author did not).
> >>> - In other studies it is shown that the building of bicycle lanes
> >>> changed the route choices of cyclists without resulting in more mileage.
> >> ???
>
> >>> - General Trends in choice of Transport have to be considered (he just
> >>> uses data from a sample of roads).
> >> Why the capitalization? Is "GT&T" some sort of recognized discipline?
>
> >>> - Copenhagen had a big image campaign for cyclist.
> >> What's a "big image campaign"?
>
> >>> - A lot of safe parking places for bicycles have been built in
> >>> Copenhagen during sample period.
> >> Causality?
>
> >>> - The removal of parking spaces for cars reduces car use.
> >> That's possible, I suppose, but in this case there's no indication that
> >> the parking changes were other than removal from on-street on those
> >> streets where lanes and tracks had been added. Whether that was enough
> >> to actually discourage driving is speculation.
>
> >>> Just to name a few.
> >> You seem to have left out the more compelling ones.
>
> >>>> A significant factor in the
> >>>> increase of crashes was blamed on the removal of on-street parking and
> >>>> the higher volume of turning motorists.
> >>> The problem that separated cycle facilities and right turning vehicles
> >>> dont mix, is well known since decades. Read the Wikipedia-Article about
> >>> it and you will find tons of primary research about the topic.
> >>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segregated_cycle_facilities#Safety_issues
> >> I agree with comments in the "discussion" section. The article reads
> >> like a polemic -- an unfortunate and common occurrence in Wikipedia.
>
> >>>> On the whole it was felt that
> >>>> the positive effects of increased cycling more than compensated for the
> >>>> safety problems.
> >>> To trade off the worsening of road safety with the supposed health
> >>> benefits of cycle lanes (by increasing mileage) should not be the issue
> >>> here.
> >> Why not?
>
> >>> The author is just speculating and again he has no data to prove
> >>> his speculations.
> >> This issue has been extensively studied in Denmark and elsewhere.
>
> >>> Im almost exclusively riding my bike in urban areas, why the fuck should
> >>> I care about the supposed health benefits on the collective scale when
> >>> my individual safety is actually worsened.
> >> Perhaps because it's a social cost borne by all of us to some degree.
>
> >> In any case, it's not a requirement for you to use facilities, except
> >> where mandatory sidepath laws exist. I'm vehemently opposed to those,
> >> myself, but that's a separate issue.
>
> > I agree with you, but I'd further argue that we should do WHATEVER
> > GETS THE JOB DONE, ie. gets the riders out.
>
> Yes, but the issues around that are much more complicated than safety. I
> remember the feeling I had 15 or so years ago when I dusted off my old
> bike boom Raleigh and started riding on the streets again after a
> perhaps 15 year hiatus. My first reaction was: Does anyone do this
> anymore? Has it become illegal? On my first outing I found myself
> squeezed off the road by my own insecurity and indecision.
>
> It wasn't that I was a stranger to "vehicular cycling", I had ridden
> thousands of street miles in the 60's and 70's in urban areas, at time
> when facilities weren't even a gleam in an urban planner's eye. I was
> used to "negotiating" with traffic, dodging hazards (vehicular and
> otherwise) and "taking the lane", I was no gutter rider.
>
> The big factor often left out in these debates over facilities is the
> degree of (dis)pleasure that various cycling environments create. A lot
> of streets may be (arguably) statistically safe, but subjectively
> unpleasant. I don't fear motor traffic for the most part, but loathe it
> at my elbow. I can safely negotiate it, but it sets my teeth on edge.
>
> When people cite "safety" as a reason for not cycling, my impression is
> that it's an umbrella term that encompasses many things other than
> strict statistical safety. There's perceived safety, which facility
> opponents blithely dismiss as ignorance, but humans, other than perhaps
> dyed-in-the wool vehicularists, aren't particularly natural
> statisticians. There's social acceptance -- face it, in this country
> utility cyclists are taken as eccentric at best. There's the
> socio-economic stigma, too, but that's drifting off the subject a bit.
>
> Safety issues aside, when you ride on a facility, there's a sense of
> official/societal sanction, which is important to many when they're in a
> minority. Physical separation lowers the physical intrusion of motor
> traffic. This is not only the threat of collision, but the spray of
> water and slush, the stir of dust and debris, the stink of exhaust, the
> sonic assault of broken or deliberately loud mufflers and massive
> subwoofers, and the summertime wash of heat from oversize engines and
> roaring air conditioners. I prefer to be as far away from all that as
> possible, and I think most people share that sentiment.
>
> > Obviously the status quo is awful for America and other Western
> > nations, judging by the people who commute by bicycle. One solution
> > would be to ban/tax cars to a degree or another going to city centers
> > and let nature take over the void. London did it, and I think it's
> > coming together with the Velib program, right?
>
> Bicycling in the city is kind of the low hanging fruit. It ameliorates
> many vexing traffic and congestion problems at a low cost and has
> attendant recognized improvements in quality of life. It's a no-brainer,
> which is why it's being taken seriously in most major US cities. I think
> it makes sense for the cities to lead by example in the US, and they, in
> turn, be led by success stories abroad. The biggest obstacles are the
> adherents to the car culture and their cycling comrades. Both groups are
> basically still living in the Eisenhower administration.
>
> Motor vehicles are indispensable in remote areas, a practical necessity
> in most suburbs, but a general misfit in urban areas. There's a huge
> effective subsidy, mostly in externalized economic costs. The older the
> city, in general, the worse the automobile works. In my view, perhaps
> the most important change that can be made in urban districts is to
> lower the speeds of cars and restrict trucks. If our culture weren't so
> blinded by autocentricism I think these would be obvious.

I agree with the above viewpoint down to the punctuation. It takes an
OVERHAUL of the system, including:

1- Taming traffic,

2- Giving respect and space to cyclists,

3- Bringing cyclists out, which is the measure of success or failure.


== 2 of 6 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 13 2010 3:56 pm
From: "His Highness the TibetanMonkey, Creator of the Movement of Tantra-
Hammock"


On Aug 13, 8:41 am, Frank Studt <frank.st...@gmx.net> wrote:
> Am 13.08.2010 15:28, schrieb the TibetanMonkey
>
>
>
> > I agree with you, but I'd further argue that we should do WHATEVER
> > GETS THE JOB DONE, ie. gets the riders out.
>
> So you think its ok to worsen the Road Safety of cyclists if measures
> are taken that get riders out (BTW there isnt any proof that segregated
> bicycle facilities do such a thing). In other words if a few cyclists
> get killed or mutilated in the process you think its acceptable? Why
> dont we just randomly shoot some car drivers every day? A suppose it
> will get the job done too, ie. gets riders out.
>
> Frank

Only a very stupid party sustains a war where the casualties are
unsustainable. We need the surge first and then see what happens. It's
fair war anyway.


== 3 of 6 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 13 2010 4:02 pm
From: "His Highness the TibetanMonkey, Creator of the Movement of Tantra-
Hammock"


On Aug 13, 10:28 am, Frank Studt <frank.st...@gmx.net> wrote:
> Am 13.08.2010 14:46, schrieb Peter Cole:
>
>
>
> > Frank Studt wrote:
> >> Am 12.08.2010 14:22, schrieb Peter Cole:
> >>> Frank Studt wrote:
> >>>> Am 11.08.2010 18:36, schrieb TibetanMonkey
>
> >>>>> It's a hopeful video and also sad.
>
> >>>> The sadest thing in the video are the bike lanes and the cycle paths
> >>>> and the damn fools who believe they make cycling saver and better. Its
> >>>> a lie. A before-after study for the city of Copenhagen shows that the
> >>>> building of separated bicycle facilities worsened the safety of
> >>>> cyclists.
>
> >>>>http://www.trafitec.dk/pub/bicycle%20tracks%20and%20lanes.pdf
>
> >>>> Actually there is no kind of scientific evidence that separated
> >>>> bicycle facilities have a positive impact on the safety of cyclists.
> >>>> The opposite is true (the study above is not the first that shows the
> >>>> negative effects of cyling facilities on riders safety). There isnt
> >>>> even a prove that more people ride bikes if you built bike lanes.
>
> >>> This is a biased interpretation of that study.
>
> >> Not at all.
>
> >>> Just from the abstract,
>
> >> did you even read further?
>
> > Yes. I've read this study before.
>
> >>> "tracks" caused an increase of 10% in crashes
> >>> and injuries, and a 20% increase in cycling.
>
> >> Actually the question what has increased the bicycle traffic mileage
> >> isn't really the question asked in the study.
>
> > Apparently it was, explicitly.
>
> > The study, according to the author, examined 3 issues: safety, effect on
> > traffic (motor and bicycle), and cyclist's "perceived risk and
> > satisfaction". That is stated clearly.
>
> According to the author they just counted cars and bikes ... This is not
> appropriate method to explain travel mode choice. Studies that seriously
> deal with travel mode choice use relatively complex models. Again he has
> no data to proof the hypothesis that the building of facilities
> increases bicycle traffic mileage. BTW. I think you are confusing two
> papers of the same author (but they a kind of similar). The one I linked
> does not deal with "percived risk...". Here a both links:
>
> http://www.trafitec.dk/pub/bicycle%20tracks%20and%20lanes.pdf
>
> http://www.trafitec.dk/pub/cycle%20tracks%20and%20lanes%20in%20chp.pdf
>
> >> The author didnt even check for different reasons for the increase in
> >> cycling. The core question of the study asks for the road safety of
> >> cyclists before and after building bicycle facilities and the answer
> >> speaks against separation. Road safety has worsened.
>
> > Yes, that is clearly stated.
>
> >> The data used in the study isnt adequate to check for a causal
> >> connection between infrastructure and mileage.
>
> > So you claim.
>
> He doesnt use any kind of explanatory model for travel mode choice he
> just crosstabs taffic volumes and before/after building of facilities.
> He even writes "A considerable amount of these effects were already
> visible during the construction period,.....The effects of cycle lanes
> are not statistically significant".
>
> >> Here some important factors you need to consider if you are testing
> >> for such hypothesis (and the author did not).
> >> - In other studies it is shown that the building of bicycle lanes
> >> changed the route choices of cyclists without resulting in more mileage.
>
> > ???
>
> You dont believe? You dont understand? Im talking about the relocation
> of bicycle traffic and car traffic. Many riders who can choose between
> routes with or without facilities will use the one with facilities. But
> it has to be said that route choice is not directly connected to travel
> mode choice.
>
>
>
> >> - General Trends in choice of Transport have to be considered (he just
> >> uses data from a sample of roads).
>
> > Why the capitalization? Is "GT&T" some sort of recognized discipline?
>
> What I meant to say is, if cycling is booming in the hole city of
> Copenhagen or Denmark its no surprise if the volume of cyclists
> increases in the sample of streets the author examined.
>
>
>
> >> - Copenhagen had a big image campaign for cyclist.
>
> > What's a "big image campaign"?
>
> They are promoting cycling big time. Just read this idiots blog:
>
> http://www.copenhagenize.com/
>
> and you will find some stuff about promotion of cycling in Copenhagen.
>
>
>
> >> - A lot of safe parking places for bicycles have been built in
> >> Copenhagen during sample period.
>
> > Causality?
>
> It just has to be considered as a explanatory factor.
>
>
>
> >> - The removal of parking spaces for cars reduces car use.
>
> > That's possible, I suppose, but in this case there's no indication that
> > the parking changes were other than removal from on-street on those
> > streets where lanes and tracks had been added. Whether that was enough
> > to actually discourage driving is speculation.
>
> Reducing spaces for car parking reduces driving. Its just a proposal
> what kind of factors should be checked if you want to explain the mode
> of travel. Of course you have to look at transport policy at a whole for
> possible effects.
>
> >> Just to name a few.
>
> > You seem to have left out the more compelling ones.
>
> Yes, he didn't even check for weather or oil prices.
>
> >>> A significant factor in the
> >>> increase of crashes was blamed on the removal of on-street parking and
> >>> the higher volume of turning motorists.
>
> >> The problem that separated cycle facilities and right turning vehicles
> >> dont mix, is well known since decades. Read the Wikipedia-Article
> >> about it and you will find tons of primary research about the topic.
>
> >>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segregated_cycle_facilities#Safety_issues
>
> > I agree with comments in the "discussion" section. The article reads
> > like a polemic -- an unfortunate and common occurrence in Wikipedia.
>
> Why dont the people busy commenting about polemic articles come up with
> a study which proofs positive safety effects of cycling facilities.
> Maybe you can name a few. BTW I did not tell you to read the article, I
> said you can find tons of primary research about the topic.
> Im from Germany, even the Federal Highway Research Institute (BASt),
> came to the conclusion that segregation worsens the safety of cyclists.
>
> >>> On the whole it was felt that
> >>> the positive effects of increased cycling more than compensated for the
> >>> safety problems.
>
> >> To trade off the worsening of road safety with the supposed health
> >> benefits of cycle lanes (by increasing mileage) should not be the
> >> issue here.
>
> > Why not?
>
> I think its more than cynical to let people be killed or mutilated for
> the sake of more cyclists. And of course there are better ways to get
> more people on bikes than killing cyclists. Best way is to make car use
> unattractive and built parking places for bikes.
>
> >> The author is just speculating and again he has no data to prove his
> >> speculations.
>
> > This issue has been extensively studied in Denmark and elsewhere.
>
> What issue, that cycling improves health, I dont argue that. But his
> data is more then unsuited to make a serious cost-benefit analysis
>
> >> Im almost exclusively riding my bike in urban areas, why the fuck
> >> should I care about the supposed health benefits on the collective
> >> scale when my individual safety is actually worsened.
>
> > Perhaps because it's a social cost borne by all of us to some degree.
>
> Sounds very individual cost to me if you lose a leg or get you head
> crushed by a right turning lorry cause the driver didn't see you in his
> blind spot. And of course there a ways to increase cycling without
> worsening road safety. If they want to push cycling they should do it right.
>
> > In any case, it's not a requirement for you to use facilities, except
> > where mandatory sidepath laws exist.
>
> That's BS (pardon my french). First of all what kind of choice do you
> have with cycle lanes, they are mandadory by principle. BTW cycle lanes,
> they reduce the distance of overtaking cars:
>
> http://digitalcommons.bolton.ac.uk/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1006&c...
>
> Second, car drivers don't really like it if you dont use the nice cycle
> path they paid for with hard earned tax money. They are honking,
> yelling, overtaking very close and so on. So Im very much effected by
> those facilities. Its gone that far that many people (even cyclists)
> think cyclist dont belong on the road they are better of on the footpath.
> And last they are not only worsening the safety of cyclists they are
> slowing them down aka make cycling unattractive.
>
> Frank

I think an elite group (those riding carbon bikes and wearing lycra)
are doing a disfavor to the mundane cyclists who want to use bicycle
as utility vehicles.

I have nothing against those elites but they are better prepared to
deal with traffic, often riding when traffic is light, and THEY GO IN
PACKS, which makes a big difference.

Even wolves in packs can bring down a big moose. ;)


== 4 of 6 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 13 2010 4:04 pm
From: "His Highness the TibetanMonkey, Creator of the Movement of Tantra-
Hammock"


On Aug 13, 12:15 pm, Jim A <j...@averyjim.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On 08/13/2010 12:37 AM, His Highness the TibetanMonkey, Creator of the
> Movement of Tantra-Hammock & the Stationary Bicycle to burn the calories
> wrote:
>
> > Sometimes to you can say something in a single paragraph...
>
> > "This book opened my eyes and explained that often the safest place
> > to ride is in the path of cars simply because you are more visible to
> > motorists. At first I didn't believe that it would be safer but having
> > tried
> > it (and some of the other ideas in the book) I would recommend it."
>
> >http://www.cyclecraft.org/book_reviews.html
>
> > Beautiful, now HOW DO WE TAKE --AND HOLD-- THE LANE? What kind of
> > grinding war are you ready to wage? Where is the organization to hold
> > this effort together and not fall apart one cyclist at a time?
>
> I wouldn't recommend /holding/ the lane - just take it for as long as
> you need it then give it back for a bit.

This sounds like the war of the trenches. How can I give back a
position I just earned? ;)

== 5 of 6 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 13 2010 4:06 pm
From: "His Highness the TibetanMonkey, Creator of the Movement of Tantra-
Hammock"


On Aug 13, 1:32 pm, Peter Cole <peter_c...@verizon.net> wrote:
> Frank Studt wrote:
> > Am 13.08.2010 14:46, schrieb Peter Cole:
> >> Frank Studt wrote:
> >>> Am 12.08.2010 14:22, schrieb Peter Cole:
> >>>> Frank Studt wrote:
> >>>>> Am 11.08.2010 18:36, schrieb TibetanMonkey
>
> >>>>>> It's a hopeful video and also sad.
>
> >>>>> The sadest thing in the video are the bike lanes and the cycle paths
> >>>>> and the damn fools who believe they make cycling saver and better. Its
> >>>>> a lie. A before-after study for the city of Copenhagen shows that the
> >>>>> building of separated bicycle facilities worsened the safety of
> >>>>> cyclists.
>
> >>>>>http://www.trafitec.dk/pub/bicycle%20tracks%20and%20lanes.pdf
>
> >>>>> Actually there is no kind of scientific evidence that separated
> >>>>> bicycle facilities have a positive impact on the safety of cyclists.
> >>>>> The opposite is true (the study above is not the first that shows the
> >>>>> negative effects of cyling facilities on riders safety). There isnt
> >>>>> even a prove that more people ride bikes if you built bike lanes.
>
> >>>> This is a biased interpretation of that study.
>
> >>> Not at all.
>
> >>>> Just from the abstract,
>
> >>> did you even read further?
>
> >> Yes. I've read this study before.
>
> >>>> "tracks" caused an increase of 10% in crashes
> >>>> and injuries, and a 20% increase in cycling.
>
> >>> Actually the question what has increased the bicycle traffic mileage
> >>> isn't really the question asked in the study.
>
> >> Apparently it was, explicitly.
>
> >> The study, according to the author, examined 3 issues: safety, effect on
> >> traffic (motor and bicycle), and cyclist's "perceived risk and
> >> satisfaction". That is stated clearly.
>
> > According to the author they just counted cars and bikes ... This is not
> > appropriate method to explain travel mode choice. Studies that seriously
> > deal with travel mode choice use relatively complex models. Again he has
> > no data to proof the hypothesis that the building of facilities
> > increases bicycle traffic mileage. BTW. I think you are confusing two
> > papers of the same author (but they a kind of similar). The one I linked
> > does not deal with "percived risk...". Here a both links:
>
> >http://www.trafitec.dk/pub/bicycle%20tracks%20and%20lanes.pdf
>
> >http://www.trafitec.dk/pub/cycle%20tracks%20and%20lanes%20in%20chp.pdf
>
> >>> The author didnt even check for different reasons for the increase in
> >>> cycling. The core question of the study asks for the road safety of
> >>> cyclists before and after building bicycle facilities and the answer
> >>> speaks against separation. Road safety has worsened.
>
> >> Yes, that is clearly stated.
>
> >>> The data used in the study isnt adequate to check for a causal
> >>> connection between infrastructure and mileage.
>
> >> So you claim.
>
> > He doesnt use any kind of explanatory model for travel mode choice he
> > just crosstabs taffic volumes and before/after building of facilities.
> > He even writes "A considerable amount of these effects were already
> > visible during the construction period,.....The effects of cycle lanes
> > are not statistically significant".
>
> He said more than that, you should reread it.
>
>
>
> >>> Here some important factors you need to consider if you are testing
> >>> for such hypothesis (and the author did not).
> >>> - In other studies it is shown that the building of bicycle lanes
> >>> changed the route choices of cyclists without resulting in more mileage.
>
> >> ???
>
> > You dont believe? You dont understand? Im talking about the relocation
> > of bicycle traffic and car traffic. Many riders who can choose between
> > routes with or without facilities will use the one with facilities. But
> > it has to be said that route choice is not directly connected to travel
> > mode choice.
>
> It doesn't see to be a great leap of faith to suspect that the same
> facilities preferred by cyclists would also attract non-cyclists.
>
>
>
> >>> - General Trends in choice of Transport have to be considered (he just
> >>> uses data from a sample of roads).
>
> >> Why the capitalization? Is "GT&T" some sort of recognized discipline?
>
> > What I meant to say is, if cycling is booming in the hole city of
> > Copenhagen or Denmark its no surprise if the volume of cyclists
> > increases in the sample of streets the author examined.
>
> OK, but a much more direct approach is just to ask the cyclists what
> they like.
>
> >>> - Copenhagen had a big image campaign for cyclist.
>
> >> What's a "big image campaign"?
>
> > They are promoting cycling big time. Just read this idiots blog:
>
> >http://www.copenhagenize.com/
>
> > and you will find some stuff about promotion of cycling in Copenhagen.
>
> I subscribe to it. I find it inspiring.
>
>
>
> >>> - A lot of safe parking places for bicycles have been built in
> >>> Copenhagen during sample period.
>
> >> Causality?
>
> > It just has to be considered as a explanatory factor.
>
> >>> - The removal of parking spaces for cars reduces car use.
>
> >> That's possible, I suppose, but in this case there's no indication that
> >> the parking changes were other than removal from on-street on those
> >> streets where lanes and tracks had been added. Whether that was enough
> >> to actually discourage driving is speculation.
>
> > Reducing spaces for car parking reduces driving. Its just a proposal
> > what kind of factors should be checked if you want to explain the mode
> > of travel. Of course you have to look at transport policy at a whole for
> > possible effects.
>
> >>> Just to name a few.
>
> >> You seem to have left out the more compelling ones.
>
> > Yes, he didn't even check for weather or oil prices.
>
> I think you're reaching. Again, the simple approach is just to ask
> people what they like. Personally, I don't think you have to do even
> that, just watch what they use.
>
>
>
>
>
> >>>> A significant factor in the
> >>>> increase of crashes was blamed on the removal of on-street parking and
> >>>> the higher volume of turning motorists.
>
> >>> The problem that separated cycle facilities and right turning vehicles
> >>> dont mix, is well known since decades. Read the Wikipedia-Article
> >>> about it and you will find tons of primary research about the topic.
>
> >>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segregated_cycle_facilities#Safety_issues
>
> >> I agree with comments in the "discussion" section. The article reads
> >> like a polemic -- an unfortunate and common occurrence in Wikipedia.
>
> > Why dont the people busy commenting about polemic articles come up with
> > a study which proofs positive safety effects of cycling facilities.
> > Maybe you can name a few.
>
> http://www.ehjournal.net/content/8/1/47#B20
>
>
>
> > BTW I did not tell you to read the article, I
> > said you can find tons of primary research about the topic.
> > Im from Germany, even the Federal Highway Research Institute (BASt),
> > came to the conclusion that segregation worsens the safety of cyclists.
>
> >>>> On the whole it was felt that
> >>>> the positive effects of increased cycling more than compensated for the
> >>>> safety problems.
>
> >>> To trade off the worsening of road safety with the supposed health
> >>> benefits of cycle lanes (by increasing mileage) should not be the
> >>> issue here.
>
> >> Why not?
>
> > I think its more than cynical to let people be killed or mutilated for
> > the sake of more cyclists. And of course there are better ways to get
> > more people on bikes than killing cyclists. Best way is to make car use
> > unattractive and built parking places for bikes.
>
> >>> The author is just speculating and again he has no data to prove his
> >>> speculations.
>
> >> This issue has been extensively studied in Denmark and elsewhere.
>
> > What issue, that cycling improves health, I dont argue that. But his
> > data is more then unsuited to make a serious cost-benefit analysis
>
> I'm not so sure. If multiple studies show an overwhelming benefit to
> cycling from a health POV, including injury & fatalities, then a 10%
> increase in injuries and fatalities for a 20% increase in cycling would
> be an ethical trade-off. Your insistence on keeping cycling unpopular
> and elite is killing people -- if you choose to put it in that light.
>
>
>
> >>> Im almost exclusively riding my bike in urban areas, why the fuck
> >>> should I care about the supposed health benefits on the collective
> >>> scale when my individual safety is actually worsened.
>
> >> Perhaps because it's a social cost borne by all of us to some degree.
>
> > Sounds very individual cost to me if you lose a leg or get you head
> > crushed by a right turning lorry cause the driver didn't see you in his
> > blind spot. And of course there a ways to increase cycling without
> > worsening road safety. If they want to push cycling they should do it
> > right.
>
> And facilities can be improved. The point becomes completely academic
> when nobody except a hard core participates.
>
> >> In any case, it's not a requirement for you to use facilities, except
> >> where mandatory sidepath laws exist.
>
> > That's BS (pardon my french). First of all what kind of choice do you
> > have with cycle lanes, they are mandadory by principle. BTW cycle lanes,
> > they reduce the distance of overtaking cars:
>
> >http://digitalcommons.bolton.ac.uk/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1006&c...
>
> Not in the wildest dreams of cycling advocates would all streets be
> marked with lanes or divided with tracks. There is absolutely no need
> for that expense or bother. Simply providing those facilities on routes
> is all that's desired. If you don't like the "facilitated" route, choose
> another. Why inflict your choice on the rest of the world?
>
> > Second, car drivers don't really like it if you dont use the nice cycle
> > path they paid for with hard earned tax money.
>
> Most cyclists are also drivers. Most roads in the US are paid for out of
> general revenue, not auto-specific taxes and fees. Even the gas tax and
> usage fees only pay about 50% of the highway system.
>
> > They are honking,
> > yelling, overtaking very
>
> ...
>
> read more »

Again I totally agree with you, and you mention the elite that holds
other cyclists back I just talked about.


== 6 of 6 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 13 2010 4:21 pm
From: "His Highness the TibetanMonkey, Creator of the Movement of Tantra-
Hammock"


On Aug 13, 12:01 pm, Bolwerk <bolw...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 8/12/2010 4:49 PM, Roland Perry wrote:
>
> > In message <nLudndvOk8gL2_nRnZ2dnUVZ_sydn...@earthlink.com>, at 15:08:05
> > on Thu, 12 Aug 2010, Bolwerk <bolw...@gmail.com> remarked:
> >>>> SUVs are probably of limited practicality almost anywhere.
>
> >>> The number of seats, and luggage capacity, is useful anywhere.
>
> >> Even when SUVs do confer those features, they are useful so rarely to
> >> be of limited practicality.
>
> > We'll have to agree to disagree about that.
>
> It's not really a matter of opinion. A typical car trip in the United
> States is fewer than two passengers for almost any type of vehicle.
> (SUVs achieve almost 2 passengers.)
>
> http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/facts/2010_fotw613.html
>
> I couldn't find a cite for this with a cursory Google search, but IIRC,
> most trips don't include cargo, and what cargo they do sometimes include
> are things like groceries.
>
> Of course, none of this means such vehicles serve no purpose whatsoever,
> but it's hard to make a case they have features the bulk of the people
> who own them depend on.
>
> _Most_ people in rural America just need a car.

Half the cars at the local supermarket are SUVs, so the distance
traveled is probably under two miles, something doable by bicycle.

I have a campaign going called 'BIKE LOCALLY BUY LOCALLY." We must
emphasize this particular use of the bike, not commuting.


==============================================================================
TOPIC: "Is God ever bored" and other tough questions
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/3ec442123446a5a6?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 13 2010 5:11 pm
From: "His Highness the TibetanMonkey, Creator of the Movement of Tantra-
Hammock"


Amazing, truly amazing...

On Aug 13, 5:00 pm, Walt <wka...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> He keeps it fresh by two-timing us with other universes.

Of course, the can bend the laws of physics. It is said he can travel
faster than the speed of light, which shows how ignorant Einstein
was.

>
> Hell keeps the angels honest.

Or else. Any opposition goes to hell.

>
> God is ambidextrous of course.

That's when he bothers to his hands. His brain power can down an
airplane or make an Empire fall or rise.

>
> Omniscience blows the whole secret ballot thing. God just gets
> reelected on voice votes (heaven has really good acoustics). Even
> though almost nobody says "nay", God makes their feathers itchy just
> to be catty. Deep down, he's still that nasty smite-on-a-whim old
> testament guy.

I thought he would relinquish his power to Jesus someday to create a
nice world based on love, not rage. You never know what he got in the
bag.


==============================================================================
TOPIC: 37 Days To Clean My Credit!
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/02fd06f9597c4fbb?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 13 2010 11:39 pm
From: bambang riwanto

Learn how I deleted 19 negative items and
boosted my credit score 135 in 19 days!
http://gettycredit.com/37-days-to-clean-credit-review


Cheer :)

b4mb4nku
Supervisor
http://www.gogonai.info/?id:b4mb4nku


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