Frugal Living: Aug 15, 2008

Friday, August 15, 2008

25 new messages in 9 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Should I buy a gas gussler?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/fabb5d064cc35efb?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 13 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 1:32 pm
From: "Bob"

"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:6gm66hFgma7sU1@mid.individual.net...
> clams_casino <PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote
>> Bob wrote
>
>>> Gas prices have Not peaked, but oil production has.
>
> Nope.
>
>>> And developing countries such as China want more. The U.S. invaded Iraq
>>> for the oil.
>
> Nope.
>
>>> Russia invaded Georgia for the oil.
>
> Nope. And they didnt invade, they've pulled out now.
>
>> Russia didn't invade Georgia for their oil so much as they want to
>> prevent competing natural gas pipelines from being b built through
>> Georgia..
>
> Wrong, as always. The pipeline thru Georgia ALREADY moves russian oil.

Rod, you little stinker.
If you ever had an original idea, your head would explode.

Better shut up and be thought a fool,
than be Rod Speed and remove all doubt.

== 2 of 13 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 1:45 pm
From: clams_casino

Bob wrote:

>
> Rod, you little stinker.
>If you ever had an original idea, your head would explode.
>
>Better shut up and be thought a fool,
>than be Rod Speed and remove all doubt.
>
>
>
>
>
Rod has intelligence of a garden slug. What can you expect?

== 3 of 13 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 1:58 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

Some pig ignorant gutless fuckwit desperately cowering behind
Bob <ma@trix.net> wrote just what you'd expect from
a pig ignorant desperately cowering gutless fuckwit.

== 4 of 13 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 1:59 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

clams_casino <PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote

> Rod has intelligence of a garden slug. What can you expect?

Never ever could bullshit its way out of a wet paper bag.

== 5 of 13 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 2:08 pm
From: clams_casino

Rod not-so-up-to Speed wrote:

>
>
>>>Russia invaded Georgia for the oil.
>>>
>>>
>
>Nope. And they didnt invade, they've pulled out now.
>
>

Only in your mind

>
>
>>Russia didn't invade Georgia for their oil so much as they want to prevent competing natural gas pipelines from being
>> built through Georgia..
>>
>>
>
>Wrong, as always. The pipeline thru Georgia ALREADY moves russian oil.
>
>
>
>
Next time, wait for the meds to take hold before you reply.

"There have been plans to take the same Georgia route (current oil
pipeline) for a Caspian natural-gas pipeline ending in Europe. Such a
pipeline would offer serious competition to Gazprom, the giant Russian
oil-and-gas conglomerate. Russia supplies one-quarter of the oil and
half the natural gas consumed in Europe, and the revenue is seen as key
to Russian prosperity. The European Union has been keen on the Georgia
plan as a way to gain bargaining power and reduce the risk of supply
cutoffs."

== 6 of 13 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 2:16 pm
From: William Souden

clams_casino wrote:
> Bob wrote:
>
>>
>> Rod, you little stinker.
>> If you ever had an original idea, your head would explode.
>>
>> Better shut up and be thought a fool,
>> than be Rod Speed and remove all doubt.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
> Rod has intelligence of a garden slug. What can you expect?

You can always tell when the fact have failed Rod when you see the
paper bag or fuckwit bots. When he is totally humiliated you get the
flushing bot.

== 7 of 13 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 2:18 pm
From: William Souden

Bob wrote:
> "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:6gm66hFgma7sU1@mid.individual.net...
>> clams_casino <PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote
>>> Bob wrote
>>>> Gas prices have Not peaked, but oil production has.
>> Nope.
>>
>>>> And developing countries such as China want more. The U.S. invaded Iraq
>>>> for the oil.
>> Nope.
>>
>>>> Russia invaded Georgia for the oil.
>> Nope. And they didnt invade, they've pulled out now.
>>
>>> Russia didn't invade Georgia for their oil so much as they want to
>>> prevent competing natural gas pipelines from being b built through
>>> Georgia..
>> Wrong, as always. The pipeline thru Georgia ALREADY moves russian oil.
>
>
> Rod, you little stinker.
> If you ever had an original idea, your head would explode.
>
> Better shut up and be thought a fool,
> than be Rod Speed and remove all doubt.
>
>
>
Why do you think his entire adult work history consists of a menial
job that fired him before lunch?

== 8 of 13 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 2:57 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

clams_casino <PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote
> Rod Speed wrote

>>>> Russia invaded Georgia for the oil.

>> Nope. And they didnt invade, they've pulled out now.

> Only in your mind

Nope, got the news footage too.

>>> Russia didn't invade Georgia for their oil so much as they want to prevent competing natural gas pipelines from
>>> being built through Georgia..

>> Wrong, as always. The pipeline thru Georgia ALREADY moves russian oil.

> Next time, wait for the meds to take hold before you reply.

Never ever could bullshit its way out of a wet paper bag.

> "There have been plans to take the same Georgia route (current oil
> pipeline) for a Caspian natural-gas pipeline ending in Europe. Such a
> pipeline would offer serious competition to Gazprom, the giant Russian
> oil-and-gas conglomerate. Russia supplies one-quarter of the oil and
> half the natural gas consumed in Europe, and the revenue is seen as
> key to Russian prosperity. The European Union has been keen on the
> Georgia plan as a way to gain bargaining power and reduce the risk of
> supply cutoffs."

Pity the russians cant stop that with the russian troops back in South Ossetia now, fuckwit.

== 9 of 13 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 3:31 pm
From: Seerialmom

On Aug 15, 12:23 pm, jdoe <j...@aol.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 13:06:16 -0500, "Bob" <m...@trix.net> wrote:
>
> >"James" <j0069b...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >news:cbcdfdc7-542d-45fb-879c-7926b9159015@2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com...
> >>I haven't shop cars but if dealers are trying to rid their big cars
> >> with big discounts I might get one. I only drive 8000 miles a year so
> >> it's only about 300 gallons of gas. A big car using twice as much gas
> >> would cost $1200 more in gas. Wouldn't it be frugal to get a big
> >> comfortable car and get the savings up front?
>
> > A gas "guzzler"?
>
> > If you mean SUVs; most SUVs are car bodies on a truck frame (done so
> >manufacturers could get around the CAFE m.p.g. restrictions.) So they handle
> >poorly, and ride badly. SUVs are expensive, and dangerous for the owner and
> >others on the road.
>
> > Gas prices have Not peaked, but oil production has. And developing
> >countries such as China want more. The U.S. invaded Iraq for the oil. Russia
> >invaded Georgia for the oil. There will be more wars for what little oil is
> >left.
>
> oil in georgia? that's news
> __________________________________________
> Never argue with an idiot.
> They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

the "other" Georgia next door to Russia :D

== 10 of 13 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 4:11 pm
From: phil scott

On Aug 14, 11:45 pm, "Nicik Name" <orb...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> "Shawn Hirn" <s...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>
> news:srhi-7C7EEF.22582214082008@comcast.dca.giganews.com...> In article
> > <cbcdfdc7-542d-45fb-879c-7926b9159...@2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com>,
> > James <j0069b...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> I haven't shop cars but if dealers are trying to rid their big cars
> >> with big discounts I might get one. I only drive 8000 miles a year so
> >> it's only about 300 gallons of gas. A big car using twice as much gas
> >> would cost $1200 more in gas. Wouldn't it be frugal to get a big
> >> comfortable car and get the savings up front?
>
> > How long do you expect to own this vehicle? Keep in mind that the price
> > of gas one year from now, then two years down the road, and three, four,
> > and five years will only go up.
>
> Nope.............the high peaked late June 2008.

you mean it will never.. ever...go back up...or even to 10 dollars a
gallon? not even if there is war in the middle east, or the indians
and chinese get more cars?

recent peak was only recent.

== 11 of 13 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 4:15 pm
From: phil scott

On Aug 15, 5:35 am, James <j0069b...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Aug 14, 8:54 pm, "Dave" <no...@nohow.not> wrote:
>
> > "James" <j0069b...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> >news:cbcdfdc7-542d-45fb-879c-7926b9159015@2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com...
>
> > > I haven't shop cars but if dealers are trying to rid their big cars
> > > with big discounts I might get one. I only drive 8000 miles a year so
> > > it's only about 300 gallons of gas. A big car using twice as much gas
> > > would cost $1200 more in gas. Wouldn't it be frugal to get a big
> > > comfortable car and get the savings up front?
>
> > No. But here's a real frugal tip...craigslist has lots of gas guzzlers for
> > next to nothing right now. Saving several thousand dollars on the purchase
> > of a new car is not frugal. -Dave
>
> How do you avoid the crooks when shopping craigslist?

first its not common...but it happens... you look at their history and
any complaints filed..no history is a red flag, complaints may be or
not, read them... then inspect the goods and pay with a cc card or
cash, or money order.

ebay is better, their rating system almost guarantees any problems get
worked out.

phil scott

== 12 of 13 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 4:47 pm
From: "Lou"

"George" <george@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:0padnU-ihoMddTnVnZ2dnUVZ_ovinZ2d@comcast.com...
> James wrote:
> > I haven't shop cars but if dealers are trying to rid their big cars
> > with big discounts I might get one. I only drive 8000 miles a year so
> > it's only about 300 gallons of gas. A big car using twice as much gas
> > would cost $1200 more in gas. Wouldn't it be frugal to get a big
> > comfortable car and get the savings up front?
>
> Not a treehugger by any means but waste is waste. I always thought the
> idea of driving a fluffed up truck for personal transportation was silly
> even when the fuel prices were 20% of what they are now.

There's waste, and then there's waste. What people are trying to not waste
here is money. That often translates into not wasting other stuff, because
it takes money to buy that other stuff.

But everyone's situation is different, and it may be that buying a cheap
vehicle that get 20 miles to a gallon has a less overall cost (purchase plus
operate costs) than buying a more expensive vehicle that gets 30 miles to a
gallon, at least for some people.

As far as the James' question is concerned, the only reasonable answer is
that you have to make your assumptions and run the numbers. For what it's
worth, every time I try to justify buying a super-efficient car like a Prius
over keeping my present car, the gas savings not only don't justify the
cost, even at $4/gallon, but the overall 4 or 5 year cost is higher than
continuing to drive my present car.

And I'll bet that unless George has a pair of shoes to wear for short walks,
roller skates for nearby destinations, a bicycle for around town use, and
the latest and greatest high miles per gallon car available to use for
longer trips (and drives it using so-called hypermilage techniques), has
come to much the same conclusion.

== 13 of 13 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 5:01 pm
From: "Lou"

"Ken Lay" <livin_la_vida_morte@skilling.the.whipping.boy> wrote in message
news:livin_la_vida_morte-C47E75.09060015082008@news.supernews.com...
> In article <YNqdne-BN6DL5jjVnZ2dnUVZ_qninZ2d@earthlink.com>,
> Jeff <jeff@spam_me_not.com> wrote:
>
> > Drive any new car off the lot and it's immediately worth
> > substantially less.
>
> Average loss immediately upon leaving the dealer's lot: 15%

And how's that any different from buying say, a new pair of shoes, or a
suit? I don't think cars are anything special in that regard.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: URGENT - Pls help...pls recommend - laptop purchase
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/3677a124728a8cc8?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 2:20 pm
From: "ares"

Do you know for sure it can't be fixed?
ares

<irfansmith@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:5df93b4f-a6b8-4e05-846a-0b2a75a5bea0@z72g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
> URGENT - Pls help...pls recommend - laptop purchase
> **********************************************
>
>
> I am in the SF Bay Area, California.
>
> My laptop died suddenly so I am in need of a new laptop urgently -
> like today if poss.
> I cannot wait for more than a week or so for delivery etc.
> Windows laptop preferably ( not mac)
>
> Please let me know your recommendations for a RELIABLE, Sturdy
> laptop...
>
>
> My main requirements are as follows:
> ***********************************************
> - as fast as poss ( I hate it when it hangs or runs slowly)
> - as lightweight as poss
>
>
> The following are the main programs I use
> ****************************************************
> - gmail, yahoo mail etc
> - MS Word, Notepad or pdf doc
> - MS Outlook
>
> Typically I have about 6 to 7 Mozilla/ Firefox pages open and MS
> Outlook and Word or Notepad open - all day - open all at once- at any
> point in time.
> So I use quite a bit of resources.
>
>
> My Budget is as follows:
> ******************************
> prefer around US $1000 ( if the laptop is on sale)
>
> But could go as high as US $1500 or so
>
>
>
> Simplicity
> ****************
> Since I am not a techie, I would prefer a very simple plug and play
> laptop.
>
>
> Would like a well known sturdy branded laptop.
> ***************************************************
>
>
> Do not need the following
> ********************************
> I do not need features for games, graphics, entertainment etc. etc.
> Just a fast, lightweight sturdy laptop.
>
>
> Would any one pls recommend a laptop based on the above.
> Which brand ? What model #? Approx price ? Where to buy it ?
>
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Irfan Smith

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 5:09 pm
From: "Lou"

I've bought every computer I've ever owned at a local mom and pop computer
shop. You go in and talk with them - they ask you what you'll be using it
for and make recommendations based on your replies. They assemble the
machine, and a couple of days later you drop in and pick it up.

Surely there are places like that in your area.

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 5:21 pm
From: Seerialmom

On Aug 15, 5:09 pm, "Lou" <lpog...@verizon.net> wrote:
> <irfansm...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:5df93b4f-a6b8-4e05-846a-0b2a75a5bea0@z72g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > URGENT - Pls help...pls recommend - laptop purchase
> > **********************************************
>
> > I am in the SF Bay Area, California.
>
> > My laptop died suddenly so I am in need of a new laptop urgently -
> > like today if poss.
> > I cannot wait for more than a week or so for delivery etc.
> > Windows laptop preferably ( not mac)
>
> > Please let me know your recommendations for a RELIABLE, Sturdy
> > laptop...
>
> > My main requirements are as follows:
> > ***********************************************
>
> I've bought every computer I've ever owned at a local mom and pop computer
> shop. You go in and talk with them - they ask you what you'll be using it
> for and make recommendations based on your replies. They assemble the
> machine, and a couple of days later you drop in and pick it up.
>
> Surely there are places like that in your area.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

After speculating about the OP, checked the history and I almost get
the impression it's more of a "consumer survey" than someone really
needing a new laptop. See below via the link provided.

http://groups.google.com/groups/search?enc_author=RNdORBQAAACDUUjfLEQpSIS-sn2ga-7nOPANdqfI6prRsqjc7uCt1A&scoring=d

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 5:39 pm
From: Samantha Hill - remove TRASH to reply

I haven't found a mom-and-pop built-it-themselves laptop place yet.

Lou wrote:
>
> I've bought every computer I've ever owned at a local mom and pop computer
> shop. You go in and talk with them - they ask you what you'll be using it
> for and make recommendations based on your replies. They assemble the
> machine, and a couple of days later you drop in and pick it up.
>
> Surely there are places like that in your area.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Things you never see in a Rod Speed post
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/5a8798d403a6dd99?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 2:21 pm
From: William Souden

My job.
My friends.
My family.
My vacation.
My favorite restaurant.
My hobbies.
My disposable income.
My education.

Come on welfare boy, prove me right by doing the paper bag or fuckwit
bots. Better yet give me the flushing bot to show how ashamed you are of
yourself.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Ethanol mileage
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/853d8ae76431e232?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 3:35 pm
From: don@manx.misty.com (Don Klipstein)

In <6I9pk.19296$89.9880@nlpi069.nbdc.sbc.com>, Bay Area Holdout wrote:
>
>>
>> No disagreement from me. Mindlessly pushing the idea of using ethanol (no
>> planning where the corn will come from, huge subsidies needed etc) to keep
>> the SUVs going instead of optimizing fleet fuel economy will go down as
>> one of the dumber moves in history.
>
>This is right up there with planned government mandates eliminating
>incandescent light bulbs in favor of flourescent(CFL) ones.

As the USA Federal ones scheduled for 2012-2014, there are exceptions for:

* Ones of light output at least that of better current 150W incandescents
* Ones with light output near or below that of "standard" 25W incand.
* Ones metting an energy efficiency standard that Philips 40W and 70W
Halogena "Energy Saver" (available at Home Depot) already meet
* Rough Service, appliance, home oven
* Decorative globe, flame, etc.
* Silver bowl reflector
* Colored, blacklight

Pointed out earlier this year by Paul Eldridge.

- Don Klipstein (don@misty.com)

==============================================================================
TOPIC: there ain't no such thing such thing as a free media.
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/37ba09fbe1e543ae?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 3:55 pm
From: Al Bundy

On Aug 15, 11:42 am, PaPaPeng <PaPaP...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> panchatantram wrote:
>
> August 15, 2008 11:07http://www.economist.com/opinion/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID=11920701&m...
> Maeglin:
>
> With due respect, the term 'free media' is misleading. It costs a lot
> of money to support the media, so it's not free in a monetary sense.
>
> Secondly, the media will always offer a viewpoint / slant that will
> appeal to bulk of its readers, or it risks losing them, which leads to
> loss of advertising revenue. Therefore, it is not free of bias either.
>
> The only thing that media in democratic countries may APPARENTLY be
> free of, is censorship or Government influence. However, watching BBC
> or CNN, one is often in serious doubt whether these channels can
> really present an independent viewpoint.
>
> Sadly, to misuse a popular American saying: as a free mthere ain't no
> such thing as a free media.
>
> And while media is supposed to help expose the truth, to me it seems
> that it is impossible to find out what the truth is once the media
> gets hold of it. At least that's how it works in India.

Gee, this sure looks like yet another off topic post by PPP posting to
the wrong group.
What the hell is a "free mthere?"
Never mind. Just admit it again and you are forgiven-provisionally.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Please help Burnham RSM-126 oil furnace won't heat hot water after
vacation
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/eef6515a0b25337e?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 4:55 pm
From: "Lou"

"Donita Luddington" <doniludd@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:1s6xc47ag2jn9.mdgfk0xrjmex.dlg@40tude.net...
> On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 11:22:21 -0700 (PDT), mkirsch1@rochester.rr.com wrote:
> > Now call a professional for God's sake!
>
> How hard can this thing be?
> All it does is boil water.
>
> What does a professional know that I can't learn in a few weeks?
> Is there a book out there on boilers?

I don't know what a professional knows that I don't. But several years ago
a co-worker came in one morning without any hair on his head - no eyebrows
even. Seems his furnace wasn't working, and he thought he could fix it
himself. Lucky the only thing really injured was his pride. Oh yeah, he
wasn't able to fix the thing and ended up calling a professional.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Underlying the pandemic off idiocy in America....
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/8c192fa5a6b9b846?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 6:17 pm
From: "ares"

Too many decisions in one day,
without time for the brain to process the data

This is why I refuse to talk with telemarketers on the phone any more.....
ares

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 6:35 pm
From: "ares"

And in addition, yes, I am noticing this and am surprised that not many
people seem bothered by it; it's like it's
insidious and nobody really realizes what is going on. Many people
including myself are having memory problems.
A big part of it is fueled by capitalism. And it's the deluge of junk mail,
the email spam, the fine print, the privacy policies, the consent forms, the
having to be PC, burying anything that needs to be accomplished under piles
of beaurocracy, the introduction of a new operating system when you're
finally getting used to the current one, the rapid changing and
introductions of other high tech products, the squeeze on workers to work
longer hours and produce more in those hours.......
ares

==============================================================================
TOPIC: EARN MONEY $1000-25000 PER MONTH
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/3d4abf5f13045ec4?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 7:26 pm
From: site

EARN MONEY $1000-25000 PER MONTH
TAKE SIMPLE ONLINE SURVEYS
CREATE FREE ACCOUNT OTHER DETAILS LOG ON
TO*******************************************************************
http://www.AWSurveys.com/HomeMain.cfm?RefID=sureshsyp

*********************************************************************

==============================================================================
TOPIC: DIY Hybrid auto? Hydrogen generator on board
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/b24cc1001c2432c5?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 7:39 pm
From: A VFW

http://humboldt.craigslist.org/pts/797891851.html
breaks down water into H & O.
does this work?
$399
--
If guns are out-lawed. Only the Out-laws & politicians will have guns.

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25 new messages in 6 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

* Please help Burnham RSM-126 oil furnace won't heat hot water after vacation -
1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/eef6515a0b25337e?hl=en
* Should I buy a gas gussler? - 13 messages, 7 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/fabb5d064cc35efb?hl=en
* there ain't no such thing such thing as a free media. - 2 messages, 2
authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/37ba09fbe1e543ae?hl=en
* Pet NOT SO Smart - 5 messages, 2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/9c41a37d189d4ea9?hl=en
* URGENT - Pls help...pls recommend - laptop purchase - 3 messages, 3 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/3677a124728a8cc8?hl=en
* Got a great deal on life insurance - feeling great! - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/df250846838b8820?hl=en

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 8:59 am
From: Donita Luddington

On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 08:31:40 -0700, Donita Luddington wrote:

>> when the burner tries to start, do you get a flame or not?

BTW, after I cleaned it, I certainly got a flame (it heated the water) but
it goes out after a while.

Does that help?

== 1 of 13 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 9:31 am
From: clams_casino

Ken Lay wrote:

>In article <YNqdne-BN6DL5jjVnZ2dnUVZ_qninZ2d@earthlink.com>,
> Jeff <jeff@spam_me_not.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>>Drive any new car off the lot and it's immediately worth
>>substantially less.
>>
>>
>
>Average loss immediately upon leaving the dealer's lot: 15%
>
>

That's equivalent to saying the first ten feet out of the gas station
just cost you $50. The next 400 miles costs nothing in fuel cost.

== 2 of 13 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 9:46 am
From: Seerialmom

On Aug 14, 5:37 pm, James <j0069b...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Aug 14, 7:56 pm, Seerialmom <seerial...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > On Aug 14, 3:59 pm, James <j0069b...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > I haven't shop cars but if dealers are trying to rid their big cars
> > > with big discounts I might get one. I only drive 8000 miles a year so
> > > it's only about 300 gallons of gas. A big car using twice as much gas
> > > would cost $1200 more in gas. Wouldn't it be frugal to get a big
> > > comfortable car and get the savings up front?
>
> > How did you do your math on the MPG? I took your 8K and divided by
> > 16mpg, answer was 500 gal. Multiplied that by $4 and came out with
> > $2K. Technically, if you can get the gas guzzler for "less" than a
> > car that gets 30mpg or more and don't drive much...economically it
> > might work. Now ask this question over at treehugger.com and see what
> > kind of answer you get :p
>
> $2K and 500 gal was your total. I said 300 gallons more or $1200 more
> than a wind up toy car. Treehuggers can kiss my u no watt.

I was giving you the benefit of the doubt; obviously I know conserving
oil wasn't the priority and throwing treehuggers into it was done
tongue in cheek. I think it's silly to toss a fully paid vehicle out
to save $300 a year on gas but pay $25K or more to replace it. Just
like my son would like me to ditch my 27in CRT TV which works just
fine to replace it with a 40+ or larger HDTV costing anywhere from
$699 and up. My TV is paid for, when it "dies" I'll consider it.

== 3 of 13 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 11:06 am
From: "Bob"

"James" <j0069bond@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:cbcdfdc7-542d-45fb-879c-7926b9159015@2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com...
>I haven't shop cars but if dealers are trying to rid their big cars
> with big discounts I might get one. I only drive 8000 miles a year so
> it's only about 300 gallons of gas. A big car using twice as much gas
> would cost $1200 more in gas. Wouldn't it be frugal to get a big
> comfortable car and get the savings up front?

A gas "guzzler"?

If you mean SUVs; most SUVs are car bodies on a truck frame (done so
manufacturers could get around the CAFE m.p.g. restrictions.) So they handle
poorly, and ride badly. SUVs are expensive, and dangerous for the owner and
others on the road.

Gas prices have Not peaked, but oil production has. And developing
countries such as China want more. The U.S. invaded Iraq for the oil. Russia
invaded Georgia for the oil. There will be more wars for what little oil is
left.

== 4 of 13 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 11:20 am
From: jakdedert

Bob wrote:
> "James" <j0069bond@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:cbcdfdc7-542d-45fb-879c-7926b9159015@2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com...
>> I haven't shop cars but if dealers are trying to rid their big cars
>> with big discounts I might get one. I only drive 8000 miles a year so
>> it's only about 300 gallons of gas. A big car using twice as much gas
>> would cost $1200 more in gas. Wouldn't it be frugal to get a big
>> comfortable car and get the savings up front?
>
> A gas "guzzler"?
>
> If you mean SUVs; most SUVs are car bodies on a truck frame (done so
> manufacturers could get around the CAFE m.p.g. restrictions.) So they handle
> poorly, and ride badly. SUVs are expensive, and dangerous for the owner and
> others on the road.
>
> Gas prices have Not peaked, but oil production has. And developing
> countries such as China want more. The U.S. invaded Iraq for the oil. Russia
> invaded Georgia for the oil. There will be more wars for what little oil is
> left.
>
>
>
Bob, did you x-post this from somewhere else? I don't see the OP in
n.gen...only your reply?

That reply is somewhat ill-informed, in that 'most' SUVs are different.
There are a number which are built on automobile platforms, which
perhaps is what you meant to say. Nevertheless, there are some built on
truck platforms as well. Most handle 'differently' from cars; but
'badly' is a blanket statement that is way too general.

But more to the point, the OP asked about buying one because the prices
have *dropped* due to decreased demand. You reply that SUVs are
'expensive'....?

jak

== 5 of 13 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 11:33 am
From: MrWonderful

On Aug 15, 1:06�pm, "Bob" <m...@trix.net> wrote:
> "James" <j0069b...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:cbcdfdc7-542d-45fb-879c-7926b9159015@2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com...
>
> >I haven't shop cars but if dealers are trying to rid their big cars
> > with big discounts I might get one. �I only drive 8000 miles a year so
> > it's only about 300 gallons of gas. �A big car using twice as much gas
> > would cost $1200 more in gas. �Wouldn't it be frugal to get a big
> > comfortable car and get the savings up front?
>
> �A gas "guzzler"?
>
> �If you mean SUVs; most SUVs are car bodies on a truck frame (done so
> manufacturers could get around the CAFE m.p.g. restrictions.) So they handle
> poorly, and ride badly. SUVs are expensive, and dangerous for the owner and
> others on the road.
>
> �Gas prices have Not peaked, but oil production has. And developing
> countries such as China want more. The U.S. invaded Iraq for the oil. Russia
> invaded Georgia for the oil. There will be more wars for what little oil is
> left.

Not only that, but the dufus thinks he'll get almost *30* mpg~!:

"8000 miles / 300 gallons"

I saw a diesel tech report that shows modern clean-tech diesels in
Mercedes cars (etc) will get *45*mpg - nice~!

But as certain as muffy and kent are dog-stupid, "Detroit" and "the
financial indusrty," as well as 20% of amurca are now bankrupt due to
following president peewee bushit down his uneducated primrose path to
destruction~!

<Wait until you get the GNP/GDP #s for 2008/2009~!> Oh, yes,
rupublucuns can't draw rational conclusions~! Nevermind.

kiss my ass - you toothless trailer park trash dumpublucun, supply-
side, pro-business, pro-growth, uneducatred, gub-bubba, evangelical
nitwits~!

In conclusion....,
uck you. <not you, Bob>
: ) Lala

== 6 of 13 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 12:02 pm
From: clams_casino

Bob wrote:

>
> If you mean SUVs; most SUVs are car bodies on a truck frame (done so
>manufacturers could get around the CAFE m.p.g. restrictions.) So they handle
>poorly, and ride badly. SUVs are expensive, and dangerous for the owner and
>others on the road.
>
>

Certainly NOT been our experience. Our Pilot has averaged over 22 mpg,
it rides smother & as quiet as any car I've ever owned / driven (except
with the windows open, the rumble noise is amazingly annoying) and its
four wheel drive / stability control system makes for a secure drive in
rain & snow storms. Our next vehicle will likely be a smaller, more
fuel efficient car, but we've been VERY pleased with this vehicle.
We'll probably never use the third row seat, but the head room,
internal space & driving comfort is just not available in that (or a
lower) priced vehicle.

> Gas prices have Not peaked, but oil production has. And developing
>countries such as China want more. The U.S. invaded Iraq for the oil. Russia
>invaded Georgia for the oil.
>
>
>
>
>
Russia didn't invade Georgia for their oil so much as they want to
prevent competing natural gas pipelines from being b built through
Georgia..

== 7 of 13 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 12:23 pm
From: jdoe

On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 13:06:16 -0500, "Bob" <ma@trix.net> wrote:

>
>"James" <j0069bond@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:cbcdfdc7-542d-45fb-879c-7926b9159015@2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com...
>>I haven't shop cars but if dealers are trying to rid their big cars
>> with big discounts I might get one. I only drive 8000 miles a year so
>> it's only about 300 gallons of gas. A big car using twice as much gas
>> would cost $1200 more in gas. Wouldn't it be frugal to get a big
>> comfortable car and get the savings up front?
>
> A gas "guzzler"?
>
> If you mean SUVs; most SUVs are car bodies on a truck frame (done so
>manufacturers could get around the CAFE m.p.g. restrictions.) So they handle
>poorly, and ride badly. SUVs are expensive, and dangerous for the owner and
>others on the road.
>
> Gas prices have Not peaked, but oil production has. And developing
>countries such as China want more. The U.S. invaded Iraq for the oil. Russia
>invaded Georgia for the oil. There will be more wars for what little oil is
>left.
>
>
oil in georgia? that's news
__________________________________________
Never argue with an idiot.
They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

== 8 of 13 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 1:10 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

clams_casino <PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote
> Bob wrote

>> Gas prices have Not peaked, but oil production has.

Nope.

>> And developing countries such as China want more. The U.S. invaded Iraq for the oil.

Nope.

>> Russia invaded Georgia for the oil.

Nope. And they didnt invade, they've pulled out now.

> Russia didn't invade Georgia for their oil so much as they want to prevent competing natural gas pipelines from being
> b built through Georgia..

Wrong, as always. The pipeline thru Georgia ALREADY moves russian oil.

== 9 of 13 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 1:24 pm
From: "Bob"

> oil in georgia? that's news
> __________________________________________
> Never argue with an idiot.

== 10 of 13 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 1:26 pm
From: "Bob"

"jakdedert" <jakdedert@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:wKjpk.10313$rD2.7050@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
> Bob wrote:

>>
>>
> Bob, did you x-post this from somewhere else? I don't see the OP in
> n.gen...only your reply?

You can trim misc.consumers.frugal-living from your reply if desired.

>
> That reply is somewhat ill-informed, in that 'most' SUVs are different.
> There are a number which are built on automobile platforms, which perhaps
> is what you meant to say.

Maybe shoulda said up until the last few years, all SUVs were built on
truck frames. Now if an SUV is on a much better handling, smoother riding,
safer car frame, then it has to meet CAFE (m.p.g) standards for a car.

>Nevertheless, there are some built on truck platforms as well. Most handle
>'differently' from cars; but 'badly' is a blanket statement that is way too
>general.

I don't think so. The last few years, some SUVs have gotten better, but
most still handle like a tank, less responsive, roll over easily, etc.

>
> But more to the point, the OP asked about buying one because the prices
> have *dropped* due to decreased demand. You reply that SUVs are
> 'expensive'....?

Correct. Sellers can drop the price so much because SUVs have an
extraordinary profit margin to begin with. SUVs are generally impractical,
unsafe, expensive to buy and maintain.

== 11 of 13 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 1:26 pm
From: "Bob"

"MrWonderful"

>In conclusion....,
>uck you. <not you, Bob>
>: ) Lala

Well.. do, and you'll never go back to wimmen!

jest kidding.. really..

== 12 of 13 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 1:26 pm
From: "Bob"

"clams_casino" <PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote in message
news:rpkpk.27025$KZ.12222@newsfe03.iad...
> Bob wrote:
> ...

>> Gas prices have Not peaked, but oil production has. And developing
>> countries such as China want more. The U.S. invaded Iraq for the oil.
>> Russia invaded Georgia for the oil.
>>
>>
>>
> Russia didn't invade Georgia for their oil so much as they want to prevent
> competing natural gas pipelines from being b built through Georgia..

Oh. But the motivation was about the same.

== 13 of 13 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 1:32 pm
From: "Bob"

Rod, you little stinker.
If you ever had an original idea, your head would explode.

Better shut up and be thought a fool,
than be Rod Speed and remove all doubt.

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 9:35 am
From: clams_casino

PaPaPeng wrote:

>
>With due respect, the term 'free media' is misleading. It costs a lot
>of money to support the media, so it's not free in a monetary sense.
>
>Secondly, the media will always offer a viewpoint / slant that will
>appeal to bulk of its readers, or it risks losing them, which leads to
>loss of advertising revenue. Therefore, it is not free of bias either.
>
>The only thing that media in democratic countries may APPARENTLY be
>free of, is censorship or Government influence. However, watching BBC
>or CNN, one is often in serious doubt whether these channels can
>really present an independent viewpoint.
>
>
>

Thank goodness we have that "Fair and Balanced" network.

Now, if only there was a network that could balance out CNN.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 11:32 am
From: "Rod Speed"

PaPaPeng <PaPaPeng@yahoo.com> wrote:
> panchatantram wrote:
> August 15, 2008 11:07
> http://www.economist.com/opinion/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID=11920701&mode=comment&intent=readBottom
> Maeglin:

> With due respect, the term 'free media' is misleading. It costs a lot
> of money to support the media, so it's not free in a monetary sense.

Its free in the sense that you dont pay to use it, stupid.

> Secondly, the media will always offer a viewpoint / slant that will
> appeal to bulk of its readers, or it risks losing them, which leads to
> loss of advertising revenue. Therefore, it is not free of bias either.

Some of it has no advertising, so that doesnt arise with them.

> The only thing that media in democratic countries may APPARENTLY
> be free of, is censorship or Government influence. However, watching
> BBC or CNN, one is often in serious doubt whether these channels can
> really present an independent viewpoint.

Irrelevant to whether its free media or not.

> Sadly, to misuse a popular American saying: as a free mthere ain't no
> such thing as a free media.

Wrong, as always.

> And while media is supposed to help expose the truth, to me
> it seems that it is impossible to find out what the truth is once
> the media gets hold of it. At least that's how it works in India.

No it doesnt, and there is a hell of a lot more than just India anyway.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Pet NOT SO Smart
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/9c41a37d189d4ea9?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 9:53 am
From: Seerialmom

On Aug 15, 6:18 am, clams_casino <PeterGrif...@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:
> Received a $9 off coupon in the mail which was good at Petsmart for any
> purchase > $20, charged to a particular charge card. Not having pets,
> I almost tossed it. Then it dawned on me that they might carry
> sunflower seeds for feeding the birds, so I decided to stop by.
>
> Sure enough, they had a big bag for $29.99 which was $4.99 more than
> what I recently paid elsewhere. With the $9 discount, I bought the bag.
>
> When I got home, I realized their bag only contained 40 lbs of seed vs.
> the 50 lb bag of similar dimensions that I have typically bought elsewhere.
>
> Net savings = 1 cent, but I do admire their bait & switch packaging
> gimmick. I should have noticed something when I was able to easily
> carry the bag to my car.
>
> Fortunately, I was driving by the store when I stopped in (not a special
> trip), but considering the cost of gas to turn off the road into their
> parking lot, I obviously lost on the "deal".

Still...you got a good price on that seed. I was paying $3.50 at
BigLots for Woody Woodpecker sunflower seeds, they just raised it to
$4.00 (4lb bag).

== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 9:53 am
From: Seerialmom

On Aug 15, 7:44 am, jdoe <j...@aol.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 09:18:15 -0400, clams_casino
>
> <PeterGrif...@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:
> >Received a $9 off coupon in the mail which was good at Petsmart for any
> >purchase > $20, charged to a particular charge card. Not having pets,
>
> hmmm, if your bird isn't a pet what is it?
>
> __________________________________________
> Never argue with an idiot.
> They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Wildlife. Like the house finches.

== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 10:26 am
From: clams_casino

jdoe wrote:

>On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 09:18:15 -0400, clams_casino
><PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>>Received a $9 off coupon in the mail which was good at Petsmart for any
>>purchase > $20, charged to a particular charge card. Not having pets,
>>
>>
>
>
>hmmm, if your bird isn't a pet what is it?
>
>__________________________________________
>
>
So would that make the squirrels my pets as well? How about the fox
that picks off the squirrels? and the Coyote that likes to feast on
the fox?

== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 10:31 am
From: clams_casino

Seerialmom wrote:

>On Aug 15, 6:18 am, clams_casino <PeterGrif...@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Received a $9 off coupon in the mail which was good at Petsmart for any
>>purchase > $20, charged to a particular charge card. Not having pets,
>>I almost tossed it. Then it dawned on me that they might carry
>>sunflower seeds for feeding the birds, so I decided to stop by.
>>
>>Sure enough, they had a big bag for $29.99 which was $4.99 more than
>>what I recently paid elsewhere. With the $9 discount, I bought the bag.
>>
>>When I got home, I realized their bag only contained 40 lbs of seed vs.
>>the 50 lb bag of similar dimensions that I have typically bought elsewhere.
>>
>>Net savings = 1 cent, but I do admire their bait & switch packaging
>>gimmick. I should have noticed something when I was able to easily
>>carry the bag to my car.
>>
>>Fortunately, I was driving by the store when I stopped in (not a special
>>trip), but considering the cost of gas to turn off the road into their
>>parking lot, I obviously lost on the "deal".
>>
>>
>
>Still...you got a good price on that seed. I was paying $3.50 at
>BigLots for Woody Woodpecker sunflower seeds, they just raised it to
>$4.00 (4lb bag).
>
>

If you have the room for a 50-lb bag (best stored in a metal trash can),
may want to check out feed dealers in your area such as Agway.

Walmart is an alternative for 20-lb bags with a compromise in price.

== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 11:03 am
From: Seerialmom

On Aug 15, 10:31 am, clams_casino <PeterGrif...@DrunkinClam.com>
wrote:
> Seerialmom wrote:
> >On Aug 15, 6:18 am, clams_casino <PeterGrif...@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:
>
> >>Received a $9 off coupon in the mail which was good at Petsmart for any
> >>purchase > $20, charged to a particular charge card. Not having pets,
> >>I almost tossed it. Then it dawned on me that they might carry
> >>sunflower seeds for feeding the birds, so I decided to stop by.
>
> >>Sure enough, they had a big bag for $29.99 which was $4.99 more than
> >>what I recently paid elsewhere. With the $9 discount, I bought the bag.
>
> >>When I got home, I realized their bag only contained 40 lbs of seed vs.
> >>the 50 lb bag of similar dimensions that I have typically bought elsewhere.
>
> >>Net savings = 1 cent, but I do admire their bait & switch packaging
> >>gimmick. I should have noticed something when I was able to easily
> >>carry the bag to my car.
>
> >>Fortunately, I was driving by the store when I stopped in (not a special
> >>trip), but considering the cost of gas to turn off the road into their
> >>parking lot, I obviously lost on the "deal".
>
> >Still...you got a good price on that seed. I was paying $3.50 at
> >BigLots for Woody Woodpecker sunflower seeds, they just raised it to
> >$4.00 (4lb bag).
>
> If you have the room for a 50-lb bag (best stored in a metal trash can),
> may want to check out feed dealers in your area such as Agway.
>
> Walmart is an alternative for 20-lb bags with a compromise in price.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I've bought a couple of 10lb bags at Lowes since I had some gift cards
for them anyway. I currently store the seed in an old clumping kitty
litter bucket (5gal?). I'm not replenishing the feeder often because
the finches tend to be wasteful, with much of the seed laying on the
patio directly under it. I let them "cleanup" the seeds on the
ground for a few days first (the squirrels do, too) before refilling.

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 10:08 am
From: irfansmith@gmail.com

URGENT - Pls help...pls recommend - laptop purchase
**********************************************

I am in the SF Bay Area, California.

My laptop died suddenly so I am in need of a new laptop urgently -
like today if poss.
I cannot wait for more than a week or so for delivery etc.
Windows laptop preferably ( not mac)

Please let me know your recommendations for a RELIABLE, Sturdy
laptop...

My main requirements are as follows:
***********************************************
- as fast as poss ( I hate it when it hangs or runs slowly)
- as lightweight as poss

The following are the main programs I use
****************************************************
- gmail, yahoo mail etc
- MS Word, Notepad or pdf doc
- MS Outlook

Typically I have about 6 to 7 Mozilla/ Firefox pages open and MS
Outlook and Word or Notepad open - all day - open all at once- at any
point in time.
So I use quite a bit of resources.

My Budget is as follows:
******************************
prefer around US $1000 ( if the laptop is on sale)

But could go as high as US $1500 or so

Simplicity
****************
Since I am not a techie, I would prefer a very simple plug and play
laptop.

Would like a well known sturdy branded laptop.
***************************************************

Do not need the following
********************************
I do not need features for games, graphics, entertainment etc. etc.
Just a fast, lightweight sturdy laptop.

Would any one pls recommend a laptop based on the above.
Which brand ? What model #? Approx price ? Where to buy it ?

Thanks in advance,

Irfan Smith

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 11:28 am
From: Samantha Hill - remove TRASH to reply

Since you are in the bay area, I would check Craigslist
(www.craigslist.org) to see if anybody is selling one there. The San
Francisco Bay Area location is quite busy.

irfansmith@gmail.com wrote:
> URGENT - Pls help...pls recommend - laptop purchase
> **********************************************
>
>
> I am in the SF Bay Area, California.
>
> My laptop died suddenly so I am in need of a new laptop urgently -
> like today if poss.
> I cannot wait for more than a week or so for delivery etc.
> Windows laptop preferably ( not mac)

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 11:46 am
From: Seerialmom

On Aug 15, 10:08 am, irfansm...@gmail.com wrote:
> URGENT - Pls help...pls recommend - laptop purchase
> **********************************************
>
> I am in the SF Bay Area, California.
>
> My laptop died suddenly so I am in need of a new laptop urgently -
> like today if poss.
> I cannot wait for more than a week or so for delivery etc.
> Windows laptop preferably ( not mac)
>
> Please let me know your recommendations for a RELIABLE, Sturdy
> laptop...
>
> My main requirements are as follows:
> ***********************************************
> - as fast as poss ( I hate it when it hangs or runs slowly)
> - as lightweight as poss
>
> The following are the main programs I use
> ****************************************************
> - gmail, yahoo mail etc
> - MS Word, Notepad or pdf doc
> - MS Outlook
>
> Typically I have about 6 to 7 Mozilla/ Firefox pages open and MS
> Outlook and Word or Notepad open - all day - open all at once- at any
> point in time.
> So I use quite a bit of resources.
>
> My Budget is as follows:
> ******************************
> prefer around US $1000 ( if the laptop is on sale)
>
> But could go as high as US $1500 or so
>
> Simplicity
> ****************
> Since I am not a techie, I would prefer a very simple plug and play
> laptop.
>
> Would like a well known sturdy branded laptop.
> ***************************************************
>
> Do not need the following
> ********************************
> I do not need features for games, graphics, entertainment etc. etc.
> Just a fast, lightweight sturdy laptop.
>
> Would any one pls recommend a laptop based on the above.
> Which brand ? What model #? Approx price ? Where to buy it ?
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Irfan Smith

Sony Vaio, latest model w/Centrino Core Duo, $1200, Best Buy.

Lenovo Thinkpad latest model w/Centrino Core Duo, $999, Costco

Right now there's tons of sales at various office and electronics
retailers related to "back to school". Walk in and look, they do say
"best for" on them as well. Seems like you already know what needs
you have and budget. Most of us probably don't have the latest
systems since we're frugal and inclined to make our iMac G3 fruit
flavored computers run until they die?

I will say, however, I prefer the Lenovo over the HP laptops, I have
one of each at work.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Got a great deal on life insurance - feeling great!
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/df250846838b8820?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 11:39 am
From: "Rod Speed"

OhioGuy <none@none.net> wrote:

>> Thats arguable. Both are likely sufficient for such an unlikely
>> event which should see you covered by other insurance

> What other insurance?

Most obviously the car insurance.

> As far as I know, people only get insurance
> payouts if they have paid for insurance coverage.

You chopped my etc that was after the word insurance.

That was to cover what the airline would have to payout if you both died in a plane crash etc.

And if you both were simultaneously killed by someone else's negligence, say when
a retail operation went up in flames, it would be their insurance etc that would pay.

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25 new messages in 8 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Aug 14 2008 11:51 pm
From: "Bay Area Holdout"

>
> No disagreement from me. Mindlessly pushing the idea of using ethanol (no
> planning where the corn will come from, huge subsidies needed etc) to keep
> the SUVs going instead of optimizing fleet fuel economy will go down as
> one of the dumber moves in history.

This is right up there with planned government mandates eliminating
incandescent light bulbs in favor of flourescent(CFL) ones.
Totally insane, these CFL bulbs are considered toxic as they contain mercury
vapor. How many people will put them aside and take them to their hazardous
waste site for disposal? 10% maybe 35% tops. Then factor in the gas burned
to drive to the waste site. Ours moves around the county but it's alwasy
been at least a 15 mile each way drive and we live in a major urban area.

Add to the CFL waste issue, slow to light to full intensity, flicker
factors, you can't dim them, potential unknows in the circuitry to generate
the high voltages to arc the light. This was fine for a light fixture on a
ceiling but now it could be a fixture right next to your brain! Some say
they get headaches.

Now this is great stuff for certain applications and if people want to use
them great,
but to make it a mandatory thing!?? Give me a break!

Right up there with MBTE which was suppose to help air quality and ended up
causing huge SOIL and WATER pollution issues when it ate through hundreds of
inground gas tanks. Also car fires in older cars whose rubber fuel hose
couldn't handle it either. OPPS! Billions in clean-up and still counting.

Lord help us between the enviro's looking to stop global warming and save
the whales and clean the air and big industry looking to make a buck,
they'll end up killing us one way or the other. But the enviro's will be
happy as they feel there are too many people(especially we greedy, fat
Americans) now and industry will have all our money before they kill us off!

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 12:02 am
From: "AllEmailDeletedImmediately"

"Bay Area Holdout" <Linear54@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:6I9pk.19296$89.9880@nlpi069.nbdc.sbc.com...
>
>>
>> No disagreement from me. Mindlessly pushing the idea of using ethanol (no
>> planning where the corn will come from, huge subsidies needed etc) to
>> keep the SUVs going instead of optimizing fleet fuel economy will go down
>> as one of the dumber moves in history.
>
> This is right up there with planned government mandates eliminating
> incandescent light bulbs in favor of flourescent(CFL) ones.
> Totally insane, these CFL bulbs are considered toxic as they contain
> mercury vapor. How many people will put them aside and take them to their
> hazardous waste site for disposal? 10% maybe 35% tops. Then factor in the
> gas burned to drive to the waste site. Ours moves around the county but
> it's alwasy been at least a 15 mile each way drive and we live in a major
> urban area.

hmmm, i see a money-making scheme for the govt(s). just institute a hefty
fine for
not taking them to the hw site and then go pawing thru the trash to get info
on whose
trash it is.
>
> Add to the CFL waste issue, slow to light to full intensity, flicker
> factors, you can't dim them, potential unknows in the circuitry to
> generate the high voltages to arc the light. This was fine for a light
> fixture on a ceiling but now it could be a fixture right next to your
> brain! Some say they get headaches.
>
> Now this is great stuff for certain applications and if people want to use
> them great,
> but to make it a mandatory thing!?? Give me a break!
>
> Right up there with MBTE which was suppose to help air quality and ended
> up causing huge SOIL and WATER pollution issues when it ate through
> hundreds of inground gas tanks. Also car fires in older cars whose rubber
> fuel hose couldn't handle it either. OPPS! Billions in clean-up and still
> counting.
>
> Lord help us between the enviro's looking to stop global warming and save
> the whales and clean the air and big industry looking to make a buck,
> they'll end up killing us one way or the other. But the enviro's will be
> happy as they feel there are too many people(especially we greedy, fat
> Americans) now and industry will have all our money before they kill us
> off!
>
>
>
>
>

== 1 of 9 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 3:34 am
From: clams_casino

Jeff wrote:

>
> There has never been anything frugal about buying a new car. And the
> drive off the lot devaluation for an SUV is particularly harsh.
>

You obviously have a lot to learn about cost of driving. While that is
probably true true for low mileage drivers, it's often times the
opposite for high mileage drivers.

Example - When I bought my Pilot back in 1/05, the Edmunds / Kelly blue
book values were actually higher vs. the price I paid, a year later.

You really need to word that as buying a new car "may not" always be
frugal & the depreciation "can be" harsh (particularly if one does not
consider depreciation of the life of their car).

Saying depreciation is "harsh" as you drive off the lot is much like
saying the first mile driven after filling a gas tank costs $50.

As they say, one size does not fit all.

== 2 of 9 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 3:37 am
From: Shawn Hirn

In article <ZdadnWO8XOpguDjVnZ2dnUVZ_rHinZ2d@earthlink.com>,
"Nicik Name" <orbits@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

> "Shawn Hirn" <srhi@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:srhi-7C7EEF.22582214082008@comcast.dca.giganews.com...
> > In article
> > <cbcdfdc7-542d-45fb-879c-7926b9159015@2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com>,
> > James <j0069bond@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> I haven't shop cars but if dealers are trying to rid their big cars
> >> with big discounts I might get one. I only drive 8000 miles a year so
> >> it's only about 300 gallons of gas. A big car using twice as much gas
> >> would cost $1200 more in gas. Wouldn't it be frugal to get a big
> >> comfortable car and get the savings up front?
> >
> > How long do you expect to own this vehicle? Keep in mind that the price
> > of gas one year from now, then two years down the road, and three, four,
> > and five years will only go up.
> Nope.............the high peaked late June 2008.

It is foolish to expect the price of gas to remain steady. I guarantee,
the price of gas in the United States will go up during the lifetime of
any car, and drilling off the coast of the United States won't prevent
that from happening. Anyone who is looking at the total cost of
ownership of a car had better factor increased gas prices into their
calculations, or they will end up making a big mistake.

== 3 of 9 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 5:35 am
From: James

On Aug 14, 8:54 pm, "Dave" <no...@nohow.not> wrote:
> "James" <j0069b...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:cbcdfdc7-542d-45fb-879c-7926b9159015@2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com...
>
> > I haven't shop cars but if dealers are trying to rid their big cars
> > with big discounts I might get one. I only drive 8000 miles a year so
> > it's only about 300 gallons of gas. A big car using twice as much gas
> > would cost $1200 more in gas. Wouldn't it be frugal to get a big
> > comfortable car and get the savings up front?
>
> No. But here's a real frugal tip...craigslist has lots of gas guzzlers for
> next to nothing right now. Saving several thousand dollars on the purchase
> of a new car is not frugal. -Dave

How do you avoid the crooks when shopping craigslist?

== 4 of 9 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 5:47 am
From: James

On Aug 14, 10:58 pm, Shawn Hirn <s...@comcast.net> wrote:
> In article
> <cbcdfdc7-542d-45fb-879c-7926b9159...@2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com>,
>
> James <j0069b...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > I haven't shop cars but if dealers are trying to rid their big cars
> > with big discounts I might get one. I only drive 8000 miles a year so
> > it's only about 300 gallons of gas. A big car using twice as much gas
> > would cost $1200 more in gas. Wouldn't it be frugal to get a big
> > comfortable car and get the savings up front?
>
> How long do you expect to own this vehicle? Keep in mind that the price
> of gas one year from now, then two years down the road, and three, four,
> and five years will only go up. If you are a low mileage driver, it
> might be better for you to rent a car once a week and consolidate your
> driving or perhaps join a car share service or maybe split the cost of a
> car with a neighbor or relative who also is an infrequent driver.

If I spend $60 a weekend on rentals it would be around $3000 a year.
If I lived in NYC I wouldn't own a car but just take the taxi.

== 5 of 9 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 5:49 am
From: Jeff

clams_casino wrote:
> Jeff wrote:
>
>>
>> There has never been anything frugal about buying a new car. And the
>> drive off the lot devaluation for an SUV is particularly harsh.
>>
>
> You obviously have a lot to learn about cost of driving. While that is
> probably true true for low mileage drivers,

Isn't the OP a low mileage driver?

it's often times the
> opposite for high mileage drivers.
>
> Example - When I bought my Pilot back in 1/05, the Edmunds / Kelly blue
> book values were actually higher vs. the price I paid, a year later.

A lot has changed since 2005/2006. The price of oil is about double.
And I think we are talking about buying an SUV versus a smaller car.

And if you read the link I posted before, you'd see that KBB values
of used SUVs are too high compared to actual market prices. Thh prices
are falling faster than they can keep up with.
>
> You really need to word that as buying a new car "may not" always be
> frugal & the depreciation "can be" harsh (particularly if one does not
> consider depreciation of the life of their car).
>
> Saying depreciation is "harsh" as you drive off the lot is much like
> saying the first mile driven after filling a gas tank costs $50.

Drive any new car off the lot and it's immediately worth
substantially less.

http://www.bankrate.com/brm/news/auto/20011226a.asp

Essentially, you've bought at retail and your vehicle is now worth
wholesale. Many vehicles depreciate little from the first to third year
after the initial drop.
>
> As they say, one size does not fit all.

If there ever was a great time for buying a low mileage gas guzzler,
this is it. Let someone else take the drive off the lot depreciation.
Unless you are doing tax magic to depreciate your assets.

I have friends with gas guzzlers and they are basically trapped. It
just costs too much to replace them, and it costs too much to drive
them. People that drive gas guzzlers have the money to buy them new and
want brand new guzzlers, not used but very nice condition ones. The OP
is no different. If you want a two ton status symbol, you want a brand
new one.

Jeff

== 6 of 9 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 5:53 am
From: James

On Aug 14, 11:58 pm, Jeff <jeff@spam_me_not.com> wrote:
> James wrote:
> > I haven't shop cars but if dealers are trying to rid their big cars
> > with big discounts I might get one. I only drive 8000 miles a year so
> > it's only about 300 gallons of gas. A big car using twice as much gas
> > would cost $1200 more in gas. Wouldn't it be frugal to get a big
> > comfortable car and get the savings up front?
>
> There has never been anything frugal about buying a new car. And the
> drive off the lot devaluation for an SUV is particularly harsh.
>
> http://calculatedrisk.blogspot.com/2008/05/severely-underwater-vehicl...
>
> But hey, if you want to drive a brand new road hog, then go buy one.
> It really isn't a question of economics is it?
>
> Jeff

I bought my brand new 02 Ford Focus with the rebates and dealer
discount. Two years later people were selling them for more than what
I paid. So you can't tell me it wasn't frugal buying a new car.
Years ago people thought big cars were dead but they made a come
back. When the economy recovers Americans will be driving monsters
again.

== 7 of 9 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 7:06 am
From: Ken Lay

In article <YNqdne-BN6DL5jjVnZ2dnUVZ_qninZ2d@earthlink.com>,
Jeff <jeff@spam_me_not.com> wrote:

> Drive any new car off the lot and it's immediately worth
> substantially less.

Average loss immediately upon leaving the dealer's lot: 15%
--
Everybody lies. George W. Bush and Dick Cheney just suck at it.

== 8 of 9 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 7:29 am
From: Jeff

James wrote:
> On Aug 14, 11:58 pm, Jeff <jeff@spam_me_not.com> wrote:
>> James wrote:
>>> I haven't shop cars but if dealers are trying to rid their big cars
>>> with big discounts I might get one. I only drive 8000 miles a year so
>>> it's only about 300 gallons of gas. A big car using twice as much gas
>>> would cost $1200 more in gas. Wouldn't it be frugal to get a big
>>> comfortable car and get the savings up front?
>> There has never been anything frugal about buying a new car. And the
>> drive off the lot devaluation for an SUV is particularly harsh.
>>
>> http://calculatedrisk.blogspot.com/2008/05/severely-underwater-vehicl...
>>
>> But hey, if you want to drive a brand new road hog, then go buy one.
>> It really isn't a question of economics is it?
>>
>> Jeff
>
> I bought my brand new 02 Ford Focus with the rebates and dealer
> discount.

Right car for the times.

Two years later people were selling them for more than what
> I paid.

Were they really selling them, or trying to sell them at that price?

It is true the Manufacturers had really screwed themselves with
pushing out inventory at any cost just to keep up market share. That is
largely a discarded tactic as insane incentives have proven to be, well
"insane".

Edmunds guide to current incentives:

http://www.edmunds.com/incentives/RebateController?step=0&tid=edmunds.n.incentivesindex.incentives.1.1.*

So you can't tell me it wasn't frugal buying a new car.
> Years ago people thought big cars were dead but they made a come
> back. When the economy recovers Americans will be driving monsters
> again.

I think they have gone the way of the Mini Van.

Jeff

== 9 of 9 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 8:18 am
From: "Brad Naylor"

"James" <j0069bond@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:d74028db-a2c9-41cd-8c3f-b71a45e38f24@b1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>Years ago people thought big cars were dead but they made a come
>back. When the economy recovers Americans will be driving monsters
>again.

There will always be a market for "monsters". It will just be very small.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Cottage Cheese - $2.69 for 24 oz. - good deal?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/c7b787cde7611a6b?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 4:51 am
From: curly'q

OhioGuy wrote:
>> I don't know if they are available in all stores, but the Walmart by us
>> sells a ten pound bag of leg quarters(leg and thigh attached) for 58 a
>> pound up from 47 a pound six months ago.
>
> Thanks, Curly! Do you know if this is the every day price, or just a sale
> price? If it is their regular price, then I guess I should make a trip to
> Wal-Mart and stock up the freezer.
>
>

Everyday price.

Curly

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Health benefits of green vegetables
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/f2827ba1aca04efb?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 5:25 am
From: David

Health benefits of green vegetables
http://foodone.blogspot.com/2007/08/green-vegitables-good-for-health.html

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 5:32 am
From: clams_casino

David wrote:

>Health benefits of green vegetables
>
>
>

I never knew spam was a vegetable.

== 1 of 7 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 5:13 am
From: "J. Clarke"

Donita Luddington wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 11:22:21 -0700 (PDT), mkirsch1@rochester.rr.com
> wrote:
>> Now call a professional for God's sake!
>
> How hard can this thing be?
> All it does is boil water.
>
> What does a professional know that I can't learn in a few weeks?
> Is there a book out there on boilers?

Repairing an oil burner is one of those deals where if you have to ask
online for advice you probably shouldn't be doing it. It isn't
difficult particularly but there's more than one way that you can
screw it up in a fashion that is dangerous or that can result in
expensive damage. It's one of those jobs that you really want to
learn hands-on from someone who knows what they are doing rather than
reading about it in a book.

If you are absolutely determined to do it after reading about it in a
book, going to amazon and searching on '"oil burner" repair' (use the
double-quotes) will find several trade-school texts.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

== 2 of 7 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 6:19 am
From: Mark

On Aug 15, 1:38 am, Donita Luddington <donil...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 11:22:21 -0700 (PDT), mkirs...@rochester.rr.com wrote:
> > Now call a professional for God's sake!
>
> How hard can this thing be?
> All it does is boil water.
>
> What does a professional know that I can't learn in a few weeks?
> Is there a book out there on boilers?

when the burner tries to start, do you get a flame or not..

the problem is either

1) you get no flame and the saftey kicks out in which case you need to
determine why the flame won't ignite i.e. lack of fuel or lack of
ignition, lack of air etc.

2) you get a flame but the control system thinks that you are not
getting a flame... then you need to troubleshoot the control system,
i.e. a dirty flame sensor, bad relay etc...

But the other guys are correct, if you screw up, you could cause big
trouble ...the main danger is everytime you press the red button, if
there is no flame, unburned fuel collects in the fire box, when you do
finally get it to light, all that accumulated fuel will light all at
once and that can be very bad...

the other danger is don't do anything to defeat any saftey system,
they are there for a reason..

I think Audels has some good books. Be careful

Mark

== 3 of 7 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 6:52 am
From: dpb

Donita Luddington wrote:
...
> How hard can this thing be?
> All it does is boil water.
...
That's "all" a nuclear reactor does, too...

== 4 of 7 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 8:09 am
From: Donita Luddington

On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 06:19:28 -0700 (PDT), Mark wrote:

> On Aug 15, 1:38 am, Donita Luddington <donil...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 11:22:21 -0700 (PDT), mkirs...@rochester.rr.com wrote:
>>> Now call a professional for God's sake!
>>
>> How hard can this thing be?
>> All it does is boil water.
>>
>> What does a professional know that I can't learn in a few weeks?
>> Is there a book out there on boilers?
>
> when the burner tries to start, do you get a flame or not..
>
> the problem is either
>
> 1) you get no flame and the saftey kicks out in which case you need to
> determine why the flame won't ignite i.e. lack of fuel or lack of
> ignition, lack of air etc.
>
> 2) you get a flame but the control system thinks that you are not
> getting a flame... then you need to troubleshoot the control system,
> i.e. a dirty flame sensor, bad relay etc...

Thank you. I was hoping for something like this.
I mean, take a car, admittedly a simple affair, but, let's take a car
engine.

If the engine isn't running, it's ALWAYS one of four things. It's never not
one of those four things. So, you go down, one by one, and you see if the
combustion chamber is getting each of those four things, in the right ratio
and the right time.

Sure, the ratio is 14:1, which is hard to measure, but, the point is that a
combustion chamber needs only a very few things to work, and, when it
doesn't work, there are usually simple diagnosis procedures that determine
if those very few simple things are there or not.

Am I making this clear or did I just muddy it all up (sometimes I think
it's clearer when I don't ramble on) .........

== 5 of 7 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 8:27 am
From: Mark

>
> Am I making this clear or did I just muddy it all up (sometimes I think
> it's clearer when I don't ramble on) .........- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

so which is it..

1 or 2

when the burner tries to start, do you get a flame or not?

Mark

== 6 of 7 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 8:31 am
From: Donita Luddington

On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 08:27:36 -0700 (PDT), Mark wrote:

>>
>> Am I making this clear or did I just muddy it all up (sometimes I think
>> it's clearer when I don't ramble on) .........- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> so which is it..
>
> 1 or 2
>
> when the burner tries to start, do you get a flame or not?
>
> Mark

Hi Mark,
I should have mentioned that I'm currently at work. Hopefully I'll leave
early tonight as I have, for the first time in a while, a date so I have to
pretty myself up.

I will try tonight but if I don't have time, depending on how the date goes
I guess, LOL, I will certainly be able to try it out by the morning
Saturday.

THANK YOU for your help. I wish everyone were as helpful as you!

== 7 of 7 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 8:59 am
From: Donita Luddington

On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 08:31:40 -0700, Donita Luddington wrote:

>> when the burner tries to start, do you get a flame or not?

BTW, after I cleaned it, I certainly got a flame (it heated the water) but
it goes out after a while.

Does that help?

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 6:18 am
From: clams_casino

Received a $9 off coupon in the mail which was good at Petsmart for any
purchase > $20, charged to a particular charge card. Not having pets,
I almost tossed it. Then it dawned on me that they might carry
sunflower seeds for feeding the birds, so I decided to stop by.

Sure enough, they had a big bag for $29.99 which was $4.99 more than
what I recently paid elsewhere. With the $9 discount, I bought the bag.

When I got home, I realized their bag only contained 40 lbs of seed vs.
the 50 lb bag of similar dimensions that I have typically bought elsewhere.

Net savings = 1 cent, but I do admire their bait & switch packaging
gimmick. I should have noticed something when I was able to easily
carry the bag to my car.

Fortunately, I was driving by the store when I stopped in (not a special
trip), but considering the cost of gas to turn off the road into their
parking lot, I obviously lost on the "deal".

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 7:44 am
From: jdoe

On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 09:18:15 -0400, clams_casino
<PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:

>Received a $9 off coupon in the mail which was good at Petsmart for any
>purchase > $20, charged to a particular charge card. Not having pets,

hmmm, if your bird isn't a pet what is it?

__________________________________________
Never argue with an idiot.
They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 6:40 am
From: "OhioGuy"

> Thats arguable. Both are likely sufficient for such an unlikely
> event which should see you covered by other insurance

What other insurance? As far as I know, people only get insurance payouts
if they have paid for insurance coverage.

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 8:42 am
From: PaPaPeng

panchatantram wrote:
August 15, 2008 11:07
http://www.economist.com/opinion/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID=11920701&mode=comment&intent=readBottom
Maeglin:

With due respect, the term 'free media' is misleading. It costs a lot
of money to support the media, so it's not free in a monetary sense.

Secondly, the media will always offer a viewpoint / slant that will
appeal to bulk of its readers, or it risks losing them, which leads to
loss of advertising revenue. Therefore, it is not free of bias either.

The only thing that media in democratic countries may APPARENTLY be
free of, is censorship or Government influence. However, watching BBC
or CNN, one is often in serious doubt whether these channels can
really present an independent viewpoint.

Sadly, to misuse a popular American saying: as a free mthere ain't no
such thing as a free media.

And while media is supposed to help expose the truth, to me it seems
that it is impossible to find out what the truth is once the media
gets hold of it. At least that's how it works in India.

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