Frugal Living: 25 new messages in 8 topics

Friday, August 15, 2008

25 new messages in 8 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Ethanol mileage
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/853d8ae76431e232?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Aug 14 2008 11:51 pm
From: "Bay Area Holdout"

>
> No disagreement from me. Mindlessly pushing the idea of using ethanol (no
> planning where the corn will come from, huge subsidies needed etc) to keep
> the SUVs going instead of optimizing fleet fuel economy will go down as
> one of the dumber moves in history.

This is right up there with planned government mandates eliminating
incandescent light bulbs in favor of flourescent(CFL) ones.
Totally insane, these CFL bulbs are considered toxic as they contain mercury
vapor. How many people will put them aside and take them to their hazardous
waste site for disposal? 10% maybe 35% tops. Then factor in the gas burned
to drive to the waste site. Ours moves around the county but it's alwasy
been at least a 15 mile each way drive and we live in a major urban area.

Add to the CFL waste issue, slow to light to full intensity, flicker
factors, you can't dim them, potential unknows in the circuitry to generate
the high voltages to arc the light. This was fine for a light fixture on a
ceiling but now it could be a fixture right next to your brain! Some say
they get headaches.

Now this is great stuff for certain applications and if people want to use
them great,
but to make it a mandatory thing!?? Give me a break!

Right up there with MBTE which was suppose to help air quality and ended up
causing huge SOIL and WATER pollution issues when it ate through hundreds of
inground gas tanks. Also car fires in older cars whose rubber fuel hose
couldn't handle it either. OPPS! Billions in clean-up and still counting.

Lord help us between the enviro's looking to stop global warming and save
the whales and clean the air and big industry looking to make a buck,
they'll end up killing us one way or the other. But the enviro's will be
happy as they feel there are too many people(especially we greedy, fat
Americans) now and industry will have all our money before they kill us off!

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 12:02 am
From: "AllEmailDeletedImmediately"

"Bay Area Holdout" <Linear54@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:6I9pk.19296$89.9880@nlpi069.nbdc.sbc.com...
>
>>
>> No disagreement from me. Mindlessly pushing the idea of using ethanol (no
>> planning where the corn will come from, huge subsidies needed etc) to
>> keep the SUVs going instead of optimizing fleet fuel economy will go down
>> as one of the dumber moves in history.
>
> This is right up there with planned government mandates eliminating
> incandescent light bulbs in favor of flourescent(CFL) ones.
> Totally insane, these CFL bulbs are considered toxic as they contain
> mercury vapor. How many people will put them aside and take them to their
> hazardous waste site for disposal? 10% maybe 35% tops. Then factor in the
> gas burned to drive to the waste site. Ours moves around the county but
> it's alwasy been at least a 15 mile each way drive and we live in a major
> urban area.

hmmm, i see a money-making scheme for the govt(s). just institute a hefty
fine for
not taking them to the hw site and then go pawing thru the trash to get info
on whose
trash it is.
>
> Add to the CFL waste issue, slow to light to full intensity, flicker
> factors, you can't dim them, potential unknows in the circuitry to
> generate the high voltages to arc the light. This was fine for a light
> fixture on a ceiling but now it could be a fixture right next to your
> brain! Some say they get headaches.
>
> Now this is great stuff for certain applications and if people want to use
> them great,
> but to make it a mandatory thing!?? Give me a break!
>
> Right up there with MBTE which was suppose to help air quality and ended
> up causing huge SOIL and WATER pollution issues when it ate through
> hundreds of inground gas tanks. Also car fires in older cars whose rubber
> fuel hose couldn't handle it either. OPPS! Billions in clean-up and still
> counting.
>
> Lord help us between the enviro's looking to stop global warming and save
> the whales and clean the air and big industry looking to make a buck,
> they'll end up killing us one way or the other. But the enviro's will be
> happy as they feel there are too many people(especially we greedy, fat
> Americans) now and industry will have all our money before they kill us
> off!
>
>
>
>
>

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Should I buy a gas gussler?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/fabb5d064cc35efb?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 9 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 3:34 am
From: clams_casino

Jeff wrote:

>
> There has never been anything frugal about buying a new car. And the
> drive off the lot devaluation for an SUV is particularly harsh.
>

You obviously have a lot to learn about cost of driving. While that is
probably true true for low mileage drivers, it's often times the
opposite for high mileage drivers.

Example - When I bought my Pilot back in 1/05, the Edmunds / Kelly blue
book values were actually higher vs. the price I paid, a year later.

You really need to word that as buying a new car "may not" always be
frugal & the depreciation "can be" harsh (particularly if one does not
consider depreciation of the life of their car).

Saying depreciation is "harsh" as you drive off the lot is much like
saying the first mile driven after filling a gas tank costs $50.

As they say, one size does not fit all.

== 2 of 9 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 3:37 am
From: Shawn Hirn

In article <ZdadnWO8XOpguDjVnZ2dnUVZ_rHinZ2d@earthlink.com>,
"Nicik Name" <orbits@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

> "Shawn Hirn" <srhi@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:srhi-7C7EEF.22582214082008@comcast.dca.giganews.com...
> > In article
> > <cbcdfdc7-542d-45fb-879c-7926b9159015@2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com>,
> > James <j0069bond@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> I haven't shop cars but if dealers are trying to rid their big cars
> >> with big discounts I might get one. I only drive 8000 miles a year so
> >> it's only about 300 gallons of gas. A big car using twice as much gas
> >> would cost $1200 more in gas. Wouldn't it be frugal to get a big
> >> comfortable car and get the savings up front?
> >
> > How long do you expect to own this vehicle? Keep in mind that the price
> > of gas one year from now, then two years down the road, and three, four,
> > and five years will only go up.
> Nope.............the high peaked late June 2008.

It is foolish to expect the price of gas to remain steady. I guarantee,
the price of gas in the United States will go up during the lifetime of
any car, and drilling off the coast of the United States won't prevent
that from happening. Anyone who is looking at the total cost of
ownership of a car had better factor increased gas prices into their
calculations, or they will end up making a big mistake.

== 3 of 9 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 5:35 am
From: James

On Aug 14, 8:54 pm, "Dave" <no...@nohow.not> wrote:
> "James" <j0069b...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:cbcdfdc7-542d-45fb-879c-7926b9159015@2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com...
>
> > I haven't shop cars but if dealers are trying to rid their big cars
> > with big discounts I might get one. I only drive 8000 miles a year so
> > it's only about 300 gallons of gas. A big car using twice as much gas
> > would cost $1200 more in gas. Wouldn't it be frugal to get a big
> > comfortable car and get the savings up front?
>
> No. But here's a real frugal tip...craigslist has lots of gas guzzlers for
> next to nothing right now. Saving several thousand dollars on the purchase
> of a new car is not frugal. -Dave

How do you avoid the crooks when shopping craigslist?

== 4 of 9 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 5:47 am
From: James

On Aug 14, 10:58 pm, Shawn Hirn <s...@comcast.net> wrote:
> In article
> <cbcdfdc7-542d-45fb-879c-7926b9159...@2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com>,
>
> James <j0069b...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > I haven't shop cars but if dealers are trying to rid their big cars
> > with big discounts I might get one. I only drive 8000 miles a year so
> > it's only about 300 gallons of gas. A big car using twice as much gas
> > would cost $1200 more in gas. Wouldn't it be frugal to get a big
> > comfortable car and get the savings up front?
>
> How long do you expect to own this vehicle? Keep in mind that the price
> of gas one year from now, then two years down the road, and three, four,
> and five years will only go up. If you are a low mileage driver, it
> might be better for you to rent a car once a week and consolidate your
> driving or perhaps join a car share service or maybe split the cost of a
> car with a neighbor or relative who also is an infrequent driver.

If I spend $60 a weekend on rentals it would be around $3000 a year.
If I lived in NYC I wouldn't own a car but just take the taxi.

== 5 of 9 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 5:49 am
From: Jeff

clams_casino wrote:
> Jeff wrote:
>
>>
>> There has never been anything frugal about buying a new car. And the
>> drive off the lot devaluation for an SUV is particularly harsh.
>>
>
> You obviously have a lot to learn about cost of driving. While that is
> probably true true for low mileage drivers,

Isn't the OP a low mileage driver?

it's often times the
> opposite for high mileage drivers.
>
> Example - When I bought my Pilot back in 1/05, the Edmunds / Kelly blue
> book values were actually higher vs. the price I paid, a year later.

A lot has changed since 2005/2006. The price of oil is about double.
And I think we are talking about buying an SUV versus a smaller car.

And if you read the link I posted before, you'd see that KBB values
of used SUVs are too high compared to actual market prices. Thh prices
are falling faster than they can keep up with.
>
> You really need to word that as buying a new car "may not" always be
> frugal & the depreciation "can be" harsh (particularly if one does not
> consider depreciation of the life of their car).
>
> Saying depreciation is "harsh" as you drive off the lot is much like
> saying the first mile driven after filling a gas tank costs $50.

Drive any new car off the lot and it's immediately worth
substantially less.

http://www.bankrate.com/brm/news/auto/20011226a.asp

Essentially, you've bought at retail and your vehicle is now worth
wholesale. Many vehicles depreciate little from the first to third year
after the initial drop.
>
> As they say, one size does not fit all.

If there ever was a great time for buying a low mileage gas guzzler,
this is it. Let someone else take the drive off the lot depreciation.
Unless you are doing tax magic to depreciate your assets.

I have friends with gas guzzlers and they are basically trapped. It
just costs too much to replace them, and it costs too much to drive
them. People that drive gas guzzlers have the money to buy them new and
want brand new guzzlers, not used but very nice condition ones. The OP
is no different. If you want a two ton status symbol, you want a brand
new one.

Jeff

== 6 of 9 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 5:53 am
From: James

On Aug 14, 11:58 pm, Jeff <jeff@spam_me_not.com> wrote:
> James wrote:
> > I haven't shop cars but if dealers are trying to rid their big cars
> > with big discounts I might get one. I only drive 8000 miles a year so
> > it's only about 300 gallons of gas. A big car using twice as much gas
> > would cost $1200 more in gas. Wouldn't it be frugal to get a big
> > comfortable car and get the savings up front?
>
> There has never been anything frugal about buying a new car. And the
> drive off the lot devaluation for an SUV is particularly harsh.
>
> http://calculatedrisk.blogspot.com/2008/05/severely-underwater-vehicl...
>
> But hey, if you want to drive a brand new road hog, then go buy one.
> It really isn't a question of economics is it?
>
> Jeff

I bought my brand new 02 Ford Focus with the rebates and dealer
discount. Two years later people were selling them for more than what
I paid. So you can't tell me it wasn't frugal buying a new car.
Years ago people thought big cars were dead but they made a come
back. When the economy recovers Americans will be driving monsters
again.

== 7 of 9 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 7:06 am
From: Ken Lay

In article <YNqdne-BN6DL5jjVnZ2dnUVZ_qninZ2d@earthlink.com>,
Jeff <jeff@spam_me_not.com> wrote:

> Drive any new car off the lot and it's immediately worth
> substantially less.

Average loss immediately upon leaving the dealer's lot: 15%
--
Everybody lies. George W. Bush and Dick Cheney just suck at it.

== 8 of 9 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 7:29 am
From: Jeff

James wrote:
> On Aug 14, 11:58 pm, Jeff <jeff@spam_me_not.com> wrote:
>> James wrote:
>>> I haven't shop cars but if dealers are trying to rid their big cars
>>> with big discounts I might get one. I only drive 8000 miles a year so
>>> it's only about 300 gallons of gas. A big car using twice as much gas
>>> would cost $1200 more in gas. Wouldn't it be frugal to get a big
>>> comfortable car and get the savings up front?
>> There has never been anything frugal about buying a new car. And the
>> drive off the lot devaluation for an SUV is particularly harsh.
>>
>> http://calculatedrisk.blogspot.com/2008/05/severely-underwater-vehicl...
>>
>> But hey, if you want to drive a brand new road hog, then go buy one.
>> It really isn't a question of economics is it?
>>
>> Jeff
>
> I bought my brand new 02 Ford Focus with the rebates and dealer
> discount.

Right car for the times.

Two years later people were selling them for more than what
> I paid.

Were they really selling them, or trying to sell them at that price?

It is true the Manufacturers had really screwed themselves with
pushing out inventory at any cost just to keep up market share. That is
largely a discarded tactic as insane incentives have proven to be, well
"insane".

Edmunds guide to current incentives:

http://www.edmunds.com/incentives/RebateController?step=0&tid=edmunds.n.incentivesindex.incentives.1.1.*

So you can't tell me it wasn't frugal buying a new car.
> Years ago people thought big cars were dead but they made a come
> back. When the economy recovers Americans will be driving monsters
> again.

I think they have gone the way of the Mini Van.

Jeff

== 9 of 9 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 8:18 am
From: "Brad Naylor"

"James" <j0069bond@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:d74028db-a2c9-41cd-8c3f-b71a45e38f24@b1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>Years ago people thought big cars were dead but they made a come
>back. When the economy recovers Americans will be driving monsters
>again.

There will always be a market for "monsters". It will just be very small.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Cottage Cheese - $2.69 for 24 oz. - good deal?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/c7b787cde7611a6b?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 4:51 am
From: curly'q

OhioGuy wrote:
>> I don't know if they are available in all stores, but the Walmart by us
>> sells a ten pound bag of leg quarters(leg and thigh attached) for 58 a
>> pound up from 47 a pound six months ago.
>
> Thanks, Curly! Do you know if this is the every day price, or just a sale
> price? If it is their regular price, then I guess I should make a trip to
> Wal-Mart and stock up the freezer.
>
>

Everyday price.

Curly

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Health benefits of green vegetables
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/f2827ba1aca04efb?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 5:25 am
From: David

Health benefits of green vegetables
http://foodone.blogspot.com/2007/08/green-vegitables-good-for-health.html

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 5:32 am
From: clams_casino

David wrote:

>Health benefits of green vegetables
>
>
>

I never knew spam was a vegetable.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Please help Burnham RSM-126 oil furnace won't heat hot water after
vacation
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/eef6515a0b25337e?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 7 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 5:13 am
From: "J. Clarke"

Donita Luddington wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 11:22:21 -0700 (PDT), mkirsch1@rochester.rr.com
> wrote:
>> Now call a professional for God's sake!
>
> How hard can this thing be?
> All it does is boil water.
>
> What does a professional know that I can't learn in a few weeks?
> Is there a book out there on boilers?

Repairing an oil burner is one of those deals where if you have to ask
online for advice you probably shouldn't be doing it. It isn't
difficult particularly but there's more than one way that you can
screw it up in a fashion that is dangerous or that can result in
expensive damage. It's one of those jobs that you really want to
learn hands-on from someone who knows what they are doing rather than
reading about it in a book.

If you are absolutely determined to do it after reading about it in a
book, going to amazon and searching on '"oil burner" repair' (use the
double-quotes) will find several trade-school texts.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

== 2 of 7 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 6:19 am
From: Mark

On Aug 15, 1:38 am, Donita Luddington <donil...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 11:22:21 -0700 (PDT), mkirs...@rochester.rr.com wrote:
> > Now call a professional for God's sake!
>
> How hard can this thing be?
> All it does is boil water.
>
> What does a professional know that I can't learn in a few weeks?
> Is there a book out there on boilers?

when the burner tries to start, do you get a flame or not..

the problem is either

1) you get no flame and the saftey kicks out in which case you need to
determine why the flame won't ignite i.e. lack of fuel or lack of
ignition, lack of air etc.

2) you get a flame but the control system thinks that you are not
getting a flame... then you need to troubleshoot the control system,
i.e. a dirty flame sensor, bad relay etc...

But the other guys are correct, if you screw up, you could cause big
trouble ...the main danger is everytime you press the red button, if
there is no flame, unburned fuel collects in the fire box, when you do
finally get it to light, all that accumulated fuel will light all at
once and that can be very bad...

the other danger is don't do anything to defeat any saftey system,
they are there for a reason..

I think Audels has some good books. Be careful

Mark

== 3 of 7 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 6:52 am
From: dpb

Donita Luddington wrote:
...
> How hard can this thing be?
> All it does is boil water.
...
That's "all" a nuclear reactor does, too...

== 4 of 7 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 8:09 am
From: Donita Luddington

On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 06:19:28 -0700 (PDT), Mark wrote:

> On Aug 15, 1:38 am, Donita Luddington <donil...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 11:22:21 -0700 (PDT), mkirs...@rochester.rr.com wrote:
>>> Now call a professional for God's sake!
>>
>> How hard can this thing be?
>> All it does is boil water.
>>
>> What does a professional know that I can't learn in a few weeks?
>> Is there a book out there on boilers?
>
> when the burner tries to start, do you get a flame or not..
>
> the problem is either
>
> 1) you get no flame and the saftey kicks out in which case you need to
> determine why the flame won't ignite i.e. lack of fuel or lack of
> ignition, lack of air etc.
>
> 2) you get a flame but the control system thinks that you are not
> getting a flame... then you need to troubleshoot the control system,
> i.e. a dirty flame sensor, bad relay etc...

Thank you. I was hoping for something like this.
I mean, take a car, admittedly a simple affair, but, let's take a car
engine.

If the engine isn't running, it's ALWAYS one of four things. It's never not
one of those four things. So, you go down, one by one, and you see if the
combustion chamber is getting each of those four things, in the right ratio
and the right time.

Sure, the ratio is 14:1, which is hard to measure, but, the point is that a
combustion chamber needs only a very few things to work, and, when it
doesn't work, there are usually simple diagnosis procedures that determine
if those very few simple things are there or not.

Am I making this clear or did I just muddy it all up (sometimes I think
it's clearer when I don't ramble on) .........

== 5 of 7 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 8:27 am
From: Mark

>
> Am I making this clear or did I just muddy it all up (sometimes I think
> it's clearer when I don't ramble on) .........- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

so which is it..

1 or 2

when the burner tries to start, do you get a flame or not?

Mark

== 6 of 7 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 8:31 am
From: Donita Luddington

On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 08:27:36 -0700 (PDT), Mark wrote:

>>
>> Am I making this clear or did I just muddy it all up (sometimes I think
>> it's clearer when I don't ramble on) .........- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> so which is it..
>
> 1 or 2
>
> when the burner tries to start, do you get a flame or not?
>
> Mark

Hi Mark,
I should have mentioned that I'm currently at work. Hopefully I'll leave
early tonight as I have, for the first time in a while, a date so I have to
pretty myself up.

I will try tonight but if I don't have time, depending on how the date goes
I guess, LOL, I will certainly be able to try it out by the morning
Saturday.

THANK YOU for your help. I wish everyone were as helpful as you!

== 7 of 7 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 8:59 am
From: Donita Luddington

On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 08:31:40 -0700, Donita Luddington wrote:

>> when the burner tries to start, do you get a flame or not?

BTW, after I cleaned it, I certainly got a flame (it heated the water) but
it goes out after a while.

Does that help?

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Pet NOT SO Smart
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/9c41a37d189d4ea9?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 6:18 am
From: clams_casino

Received a $9 off coupon in the mail which was good at Petsmart for any
purchase > $20, charged to a particular charge card. Not having pets,
I almost tossed it. Then it dawned on me that they might carry
sunflower seeds for feeding the birds, so I decided to stop by.

Sure enough, they had a big bag for $29.99 which was $4.99 more than
what I recently paid elsewhere. With the $9 discount, I bought the bag.

When I got home, I realized their bag only contained 40 lbs of seed vs.
the 50 lb bag of similar dimensions that I have typically bought elsewhere.

Net savings = 1 cent, but I do admire their bait & switch packaging
gimmick. I should have noticed something when I was able to easily
carry the bag to my car.

Fortunately, I was driving by the store when I stopped in (not a special
trip), but considering the cost of gas to turn off the road into their
parking lot, I obviously lost on the "deal".

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 7:44 am
From: jdoe

On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 09:18:15 -0400, clams_casino
<PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:

>Received a $9 off coupon in the mail which was good at Petsmart for any
>purchase > $20, charged to a particular charge card. Not having pets,

hmmm, if your bird isn't a pet what is it?

__________________________________________
Never argue with an idiot.
They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Got a great deal on life insurance - feeling great!
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/df250846838b8820?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 6:40 am
From: "OhioGuy"

> Thats arguable. Both are likely sufficient for such an unlikely
> event which should see you covered by other insurance

What other insurance? As far as I know, people only get insurance payouts
if they have paid for insurance coverage.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: there ain't no such thing such thing as a free media.
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/37ba09fbe1e543ae?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 8:42 am
From: PaPaPeng

panchatantram wrote:
August 15, 2008 11:07
http://www.economist.com/opinion/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID=11920701&mode=comment&intent=readBottom
Maeglin:

With due respect, the term 'free media' is misleading. It costs a lot
of money to support the media, so it's not free in a monetary sense.

Secondly, the media will always offer a viewpoint / slant that will
appeal to bulk of its readers, or it risks losing them, which leads to
loss of advertising revenue. Therefore, it is not free of bias either.

The only thing that media in democratic countries may APPARENTLY be
free of, is censorship or Government influence. However, watching BBC
or CNN, one is often in serious doubt whether these channels can
really present an independent viewpoint.

Sadly, to misuse a popular American saying: as a free mthere ain't no
such thing as a free media.

And while media is supposed to help expose the truth, to me it seems
that it is impossible to find out what the truth is once the media
gets hold of it. At least that's how it works in India.

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Friday, August 15, 2008

25 new messages in 8 topics - digest

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