Frugal Living: 25 new messages in 12 topics

misc.consumers.frugal-living
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Today's topics:

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TOPIC: Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/e565eaf98e0e70b6?hl=en
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== 1 of 13 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 7:30 am
From: "Edwin Pawlowski"

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
message
>
> Let's learn from this half-day job.
> Would this hot water heater R&R pass your inspection?
> Why or why not?
>
> Donna & Bill

I appears that you re-used the flex gas line. That should be replaced with
any new installation and would be a code violation in most, if not all,
places.

From the photo, it looks as though you used on SS line and one copper line.
If so, that is a sure sign of a hack job. Meantime, start thinking about
replacing all of that galvanized pip with either copper or pex.

== 2 of 13 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 7:45 am
From: "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"

On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 06:54:10 -0800 (PST), hallerb@aol.com wrote:

> all your galvanized needs replaced, when corroded that bad soon it
> will leak:(

Hi Hallerb,

It was disgusting how corroded the *inside* of the galvanized pipes were!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2273250265/

We had to reuse the 3/4 inch galvanized elbows.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2273268515/

Why? Because we just couldn't get them off no matter how much we twisted!

We had to put Jack's stands against the wall just to hold it back.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2273268509/

The horizontal pipe kept bending and twisting with every application of
force.

Three questions came up that we'd like to ask:

1. We could easily twist the horizontal galvanized pipe; but how would we
replace this corroded pipe since it apparently connects to an elbow
*inside* the wall?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2273268515/

2. Could/should we have just hack sawed the horizontal galvanized pipe and
rethreaded somehow (it's leaking very slightly from where the corroded
threads meet the new steel nipple)?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2273262551/

3. Is our cold water shut off valve too close to the hot vent flue for
safety?
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2385/2274079134_7986c459d6_m.jpg

Please advise as this job brought up more questions than answers!
Donna
http://www.flickr.com/donnaohl

== 3 of 13 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 7:06 am
From: "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"

On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 06:55:46 -0800 (PST), hallerb@aol.com wrote:
> the intricate baffels are there to help efficency.

Hi Hallerb,

That was another question we had in the queue!

1. What exactly do these intricate baffles actually do?
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2040/2273991351_1cb7542339_m.jpg

I'm guessing they slow down the heated air so that it has more time to heat
up the water by passive convection. Is that true?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2273276725/

Donna

== 4 of 13 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 7:22 am
From: "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"

On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 06:55:46 -0800 (PST), hallerb@aol.com wrote:
> on energy costs, this heater was designed after the energy guide label
> specs were created, thats why its energy use is under the lowest.

Interesting!

The Energy Guide label for this 0.63 Energy Factor water heater:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2274085480/

Says the thermal energy factor comparison is:
This model uses 238 therms per year.
Uses least energy: 242 therms
Uses most energy: 272 therms
Only models with FHRs of 87 to 99 gallons are used in this scale.
This model's estimated yearly operating cost is: $216 dollars
Based on a 2004 US Government national average cost of 0.9100 per therm.
(41,045 btu/0.63)($0.9100/therm * 1 therm/100,000 btu) x 365 = $216/year

However, my estimated thermal energy factor is closer to:
(41,045 btu/0.63)($1.21106/therm * 1 therm/100,000 btu) x 365 = $288/year

So, the Energy Guide label is off on energy costs by a whopping 75 percent!
(I think.)

Donna
PS: I never know whether the best calculation is this way or that?
$216 / $288 * 100 = 75%
or
$288 / $216 * 100 = 133%

== 5 of 13 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 8:26 am
From: "Edwin Pawlowski"

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
message
>
> Can anyone really expect to remove the anode when it needs inspection?
> Why don't they provide TWO HOLES so you can add a second anode when
> needed?

! Cost
2 How would you know if a new one is needed if you cant get the first one
out?
3 That plug would not come out either after years of use

== 6 of 13 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 7:31 am
From: "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"

On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 15:30:03 GMT, Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
> I appears that you re-used the flex gas line. That should be replaced with
> any new installation and would be a code violation in most, if not all,
> places.

Hi Edwin,

Thank you! That was another of my questions!
(strangely I have more questions after the job than before).

Looking at the nicely packaged yellow gas lines, we asked EVERYONE in the
stores if we should replace and they all (multiple stores) said nobody
replaces the gas line. They said leave it so we don't introduce a leak.

So, purely for safety reasons, we didn't replace the gas line (using the
store logic).

But, we would have been happy to replace the gas line as the costs for
quality parts is miniscule in this job, given the major cost for the heater
itself.

Where do I look up our local code requirements anyway?
I went to our town site and saw they have an office but nothing on the web.

Donna

== 7 of 13 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 8:44 am
From: "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"

On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 15:30:03 GMT, Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
> From the photo, it looks as though you used on SS line and one copper line.
> If so, that is a sure sign of a hack job.

Hi Edwin,

Again, thanks for the review of the job!

We had to make many compromises we felt a plumber would make also!
(tell us if they would have done this differently after reading why below)

The reason for the flex copper cold water input is that there wasn't room
for anything else. Given the shortest copper flex line we could find, we
couldn't fit the dialectric unions. The shortest stainless steel lines we
could find at multiple stores wouldn't bend enough.

We had to mate the cold water inlet's galvanized steel elbow to a steel
nipple to a bronze ball valve to the copper flex line to the dialectric
nipple screwed into the inlet of teh steel tank.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2274079134/

On the hot water side, likewise, there wasn't room for the copper flex plus
two dialectric unions, but at least we could mate steel directly to steel
by going from the galvanized steel elbow to a steel nipple to the steel
pipe to the dialectric nipple screwed into the steel tank.

KEY QUESTION: Would a plumber have done it differently? How?

MINOR QUESTION: Why do some stainless steel lines have brass fittings yet
they all say they are for mating steel to steel?

Donna

== 8 of 13 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 8:47 am
From: "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"

On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 15:30:03 GMT, Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

> Start thinking about replacing all of that galvanized pipe
> with either copper or pex.

Hi Edwin,

Given how corroded the steel pipes were (I can't believe my kids drank
water from those pipes!), maybe we'll try to replace all our plumbing when
the weather warms up (Bill is on the roof right now doing the shingles
which blew off in the last storm).

It seems like an easy job for the piping under the crawl space.

But it seems difficult for the piping hidden in the wall.
(Do we have to rip the walls apart?)

And the pipes under the driveway to the main water meter.
(Do we have to break open the driveway?)

Is replacing the galvanized pipes with copper a do-it-yourself job Billa nd
I can do together?

Donna

== 9 of 13 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 8:50 am
From: Vic Smith

On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 15:45:12 GMT, "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer
Coordinator" <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 06:54:10 -0800 (PST), hallerb@aol.com wrote:
>
>> all your galvanized needs replaced, when corroded that bad soon it
>> will leak:(
>
>Hi Hallerb,
>
>It was disgusting how corroded the *inside* of the galvanized pipes were!
>http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2273250265/
>
That's not corrosion. It's mineral scale. Stone, basically.

>We had to reuse the 3/4 inch galvanized elbows.
>http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2273268515/
>
>Why? Because we just couldn't get them off no matter how much we twisted!
>
>We had to put Jack's stands against the wall just to hold it back.
>http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2273268509/
>
>The horizontal pipe kept bending and twisting with every application of
>force.
>
An 18" or 24"pipe wrench taking a bite on that pipe would have
prevented that. You need to see how a plumber does it. Those ells
would come off easily enough. Don't need jackstands, though that was
creative, I must say. Good for you. You have initiative.
BTW, older pipes were sometimes assembled with a hardening dope.
Whacking the joint repeatedly with a hammer usually breaks the bond.

>Three questions came up that we'd like to ask:
>
>1. We could easily twist the horizontal galvanized pipe; but how would we
>replace this corroded pipe since it apparently connects to an elbow
>*inside* the wall?
>http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2273268515/
>
If the flow is ok, don't worry about it. You never saw inside that
pipe, and it may very well be fairly unrestricted. Scale forms more
at fittings, where the water changes direction, or becomes turbulent.
If the pipe connects to an ell inside the wall, you would have to
knock out the wall to get a bite on the ell with a wrench to prevent
the possibility of breaking a pipe. If the pipe goes into a tee (for
example the run continues to feed elsewhere) you can probably just
twist it out. Just remember that one has to continue replacing if
anything screws up.

>2. Could/should we have just hack sawed the horizontal galvanized pipe and
>rethreaded somehow (it's leaking very slightly from where the corroded
>threads meet the new steel nipple)?
>http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2273262551/
>
Most likely you didn't crank it in enough, or the ell threads were
fouled with hardened dope. That's a good reason to replace ells.
OTOH the external pipe threads can often be cleaned of old dope and
inserted further than before into the fitting, making up for any
corrosion.
If the leak doesn't stop, you'll have to redo that. There may be
remedies for the leak, but I can't recommend any.

>3. Is our cold water shut off valve too close to the hot vent flue for
>safety?
>http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2385/2274079134_7986c459d6_m.jpg
>
Still don't know why you used a lever valve. The least you could have
done was to install the valve with lever away from the vent, 90
degrees rotated from where it is.
I doubt it's an issue though, unless the valve has plastic that can
melt. See how hot it gets after a heater run.

>Please advise as this job brought up more questions than answers!
>Donna
>http://www.flickr.com/donnaohl

Except for the leak, you did fine. Don't overthink it. Galvanized
pipes can easily last 50 years. The pipes in my house are that old
and in fine shape, but perhaps restricted a bit with scale.
If you decide to replace them with copper or PEX, you can no doubt do
that yourself, since you are willing to study how. It will be tougher
than a water heater though.
Somebody mentioned the gas flex you used, and you should be absolutely
certain you've done that safely. I have used only black pipe for gas,
so don't know about the flex fittings, except I use the new, certified
ones when I replace a range. There was a batch of faulty gas flex
hoses installed on ranges that caused some explosions/deaths, so check
into that too.

--Vic

== 10 of 13 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 8:58 am
From: "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"

On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 16:26:18 GMT, Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
> 3 That plug would not come out either after years of use

Hi Edwin,

Good point! It's almost impossible to remove the sacrificial anode!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2274085498/

Another question we had was whether or not to buy a new anode TODAY so that
we'd have it in stock.

Is it hard to find a new anode for any particular water heater, years after
it's built?

I would guess the length is all that really matters (shorter than the tank)
and not necessarily the specific model of the water heater per se.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2274079124/

Do most people just buy a replacement anode by length?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2273991351/

Donna

== 11 of 13 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 8:16 am
From: "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"

On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 10:50:04 -0600, Vic Smith wrote:

>>(it's leaking very slightly from where the corroded
>>threads meet the new steel nipple)?
>>http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2273262551/
>>
> Most likely you didn't crank it in enough...
> If the leak doesn't stop, you'll have to redo that.

I watched Bill crank it like crazy so it's certainly tight enough! :)

We think the threads on the 50-year old galvanized steel elbow are clogged
up and that's what is causing the slow dribble out of the cold water inlet
pipe.

We now have the confidence to tackle this job - we just were unsure how to
remove the elbow or cut the pipe or remove the pipe from the wall.

> install the valve with lever away from the vent, 90
> degrees rotated from where it is.
We'll do that when we figure out how to fix the slight leak above.

> See how hot it gets after a heater run.
It's cold.

> Galvanized pipes can easily last 50 years.
Our house was built in 1958!

> Somebody mentioned the gas flex you used
We feel confident in swapping out the gas flex if that's what we should do.
Do others feel we must do that (we don't mind as parts costs are
miniscule).

We just want to do the job right.

Thanks for the advice.
One thing that is still undone is the overflow vent (we'll ask separately).

Donna

== 12 of 13 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 9:18 am
From: N8N

On Feb 18, 11:58 am, "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"
<donna....@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 16:26:18 GMT, Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
> > 3 That plug would not come out either after years of use
>
> Hi Edwin,
>
> Good point! It's almost impossible to remove the sacrificial anode!http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2274085498/

If you try to remove it next year, you should be able to do it
easily. It might be a two person job, but even on my 20-year old old
water heater I could do it. I did need an appropriately sized socket
(I think 1-1/16" or 1-1/8"? I forget) a heavy 3/4" drive breaker bar
and a 36" long "cheater pipe," but it came out. The second person is
to hold the tank while you're reefing on it, and it helps to leave the
tank mostly full of water to add weight (but make sure that the water
is below the level of the T&P valve, so it doesn't shoot out when you
finally remove the anode.) I did have some concerns about cracking
the bung off the tank, but I figured it was one of those things, if it
broke it needed to be replaced anyway. I got lucky and it didn't. A
new tank should not have this issue.

Putting some pipe dope or pipe tape on the anode's threads will help
keep it from corroding so between that and R&Ring it every year it
shouldn't be a major issue. The dope/tape will not cause any problems
with nonconductivity, enough of the threads will bite through the dope/
tape to provide a solid electrical connection.

>
> Another question we had was whether or not to buy a new anode TODAY so that
> we'd have it in stock.
>
> Is it hard to find a new anode for any particular water heater, years after
> it's built?
>

Nope, there are only a couple basic styles. I wouldn't worry about it
until it shows signs of getting close to the wire.

> I would guess the length is all that really matters (shorter than the tank)
> and not necessarily the specific model of the water heater per se.http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2274079124/
>
> Do most people just buy a replacement anode by length?http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2273991351/
>
> Donna

yes. There are two considerations - whether you have a hex head or
combo style anode and whether or not you have restricted overhead
space. If you have enough room to pull the anode completely out
without bending it you can use a standard one. If you don't you will
need to buy a slightly more expensive segmented one (basically just a
standard anode turned down every foot or so to allow it to be bent and
straightened) I bought mine from waterheaterrescue.com simply because
the only other source I could find for magnesium replacement anodes
was direct from Rheem and WHR had a better price.

nate

== 13 of 13 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 9:26 am
From: Meat Plow

On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 16:26:18 +0000, Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

>
> "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
> message
>>
>> Can anyone really expect to remove the anode when it needs inspection?
>> Why don't they provide TWO HOLES so you can add a second anode when
>> needed?
>
> ! Cost
> 2 How would you know if a new one is needed if you cant get the first one
> out?
> 3 That plug would not come out either after years of use

I can't believe this thread is still going after what three weeks?

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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Walmart Nothern VA - Wii
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/cadc8cd3f533d8a1?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 7:55 am
From: George

rox wrote:
> "Mike" <yard22192@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:69681128-84bc-4f23-b7eb-19263820e9e6@p43g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
>> Anyone know if Walmart will sell Wii? I went to the Walmart in
>> Woodbridge by Potomac Mills Mall and 4 Walmart employees said they
>> don't know. Plus they won't credit my son's Wii console gift card.
>> Thanks
>> Mike
>
> If the employees don't know, and can't credit your gift card you should call
> the Walmart home office. I'm sure you can google that. Many people calling
> themselves "store managers" really aren't in charge of anything larger than
> the shift they work.
>
>
Big box places like walmart like to name as many people as possible
"managers" because it exempts that employee from wage and hour laws. So
as you said the "manager" may be in charge of next to nothing.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: ? for landlords
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/648f8a4eebe4a886?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 8:26 am
From: "AllEmailDeletedImmediately"

"Bill" <billnomailnospamx@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:61tc0uF1vr5fkU1@mid.individual.net...
> >
>> how do you vet your tenants?
>
> These days you can get a tenant who sets up a drug lab and this can result
> in a toxic waste clean-up which can cost a small fortune or result in the
> need to demolish the property!
>
> Basically a landlord is loaning a property worth $100,000.00 and up to a
> total stranger. So a good idea to get to know the tenant real good BEFORE
> renting to them...
>
> Can do a rental check to check the renters prior experiences with other
> landlords. (Paid on time, left property in good condition, etc.)
>
> Can do a driver's license check. (The thinking being that a responsible
> person would also obey traffic laws. Also if driving under influence
> charge(s), this can be an indication of drug use and/or irresponsibility.)
>
> Can run credit check. (If person has paid other bills on time it is an
> indication that the person will also pay their rent on time.)
>
> Can run criminal background check. (Looking for drug charges here mostly.)

so how do i go about doing these checks?

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 8:54 am
From: George Grapman

barbie gee wrote:
>
>
> On Mon, 18 Feb 2008, AllEmailDeletedImmediately wrote:
>
>> how do you vet your tenants?
>
> Use a standard application form for all tenants. Screen further with a
> credit check and work verification and 2 previous landlords, done by a
> tenant screening agency. Prospective tenant(s) pay $30 screening fee
> upfront. Call the 2 landlords yourself, as well.
>
An unscrupulous landlord could take many applications and simply
pocket the fees. I would tell the landlord that fees are part of their
cost of doing business (would you pay a bank to run a check when you
apply for a credit card?) or, at the very least, I would offer a
separate check made out to the reporting.
On the other side of the coin a tenant can screen a landlord.Assuming
it is a multi-unit building go there in the late afternoon when people
are returning from work and ask about things like repairs and maintenance.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: How many therms (natural gas) do you use per day (per month)?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/99d004d38152f87d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 8:34 am
From: Bill Ghrist

Anthony Matonak wrote:
> Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator wrote:
>>> I used 120 therms in the past 30 days (about 4 therms per day).
>>> HOW MANY THERMS DID YOU USE LAST MONTH?
> ...
>> Does ANYONE actually use just 2 therms per day for their gas furnace and
>> hot-water heater for two people living in a small 1,500 sqft house?
>
> I'm only one person but I average about 5 therms a month.
> In the winter it's slightly more.
>
> Anthony

Last year we used a total of 71.5 MCF (734 therms at 10.27 therm/MCF).
That's an average of 61.2 therms/month. Highest monthly usage was 17.4
MCF (178.7 therms) for 1/23/2007~2/22/2007 for which the average
temperature was 22 deg. F. Most recent monthly usage (33 days:
12/21/2007~1/24/2008) was 13.3 MCF (136.6 therms) with an average
temperature of 32 deg. F. In the summer months the usage was 1.2 MCF
(12.3 therms) per month.

This is a 1750 sq. foot, 53 year old brick and stone ranch style house
with fairly new double pane windows. We are in Pittsburgh, PA. Gas is
used for heating (forced air), hot water, and cooking, for two people.
We keep the thermostat at 58 degrees at night and 68 degrees in the
daytime in the winter.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Use patio furniture as front room furniture?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/f67d143f0a103614?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 8:37 am
From: me@privacy.net

<h> wrote:

>Although...if you're planning to have an outside patio or deck and are in a
>temporary need for inside furniture, there's nothing wrong with buying for
>the outside and then waiting until the snow melts to move it from the living
>room to the deck

yeah that was one idea... to move the patio furniture
outside when I can finally afford better furniture

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http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/6667099bbb25c8e3?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
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==============================================================================
TOPIC: when does the tripling of grain prices "hit the fan"?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/b7ba2eeecb9059a7?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 9:35 am
From: larry

Don Klipstein wrote:
> In <slrnfrh47d.pm5.don@manx.misty.com>, I, Don Klipstein wrote:
>
>
>> Wheat recently hit a high of $10.93 per bushel for March delivery:
>>
>>http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080208/usda_wheat_commodities_wrap.html?.v=1
>>
>> A bushel of weight is 60 pounds of wheat.
>>
>>http://www.cyberspaceag.com/kansascrops/whatsinabushel.htm
>>
>> So wheat costs about 18 cents per pound. The wheat in a $2-plus 22-ounce
>>loaf of bread costs about 25 cents at the latest high prices of wheat.
>
>
> Make that less than 25 cents - bread is roughly half water, much of it
> added.
>
> - Don Klipstein (don@misty.com)

Using/confusing food stock for fuel is never a good idea.

The history of the Easter Islands is a good example. You
don't cut down all the trees, when your existence depends on
them. There is a similar Cree Indian saying.

-- larry / dallas

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Monday, February 18, 2008

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