Frugal Living: misc.consumers.frugal-living - 25 new messages in 8 topics

Saturday, December 13, 2008

misc.consumers.frugal-living - 25 new messages in 8 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Purchase All Available US Autos
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/8da7acb0e572db51?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 17 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 4:19 pm
From: lorad

On Dec 13, 4:13 pm, lorad <lorad...@cs.com> wrote:
> On Dec 13, 7:20 am, wis...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> Asian auto-maker propaganda [snipped]
>
> Rather than sending your dollars to Tokyo or Seoul, try to help your
> neighbors and yourself by buying a US made automobile. As is well
> known.. keeping one dollar in your local economy, generates even more
> dollars as that money recirculates creating compounded wealth.
>
> The PRIMARY reason that the US economy is failing is due to the
> reduction of US manufacturing capability which results in fewer
> exports and more imports over the last 15 years.
> The US's wealth has been drained away.
>
> If we lose the auto industry in America, we also lose 1/7th of all US
> jobs.
> Think about that.
>
> The wall-street giveaway of 800 BILLION to a crook business sector
> might keep the house of cards aloft (and the super-rich richer) for a
> year or two... but ultimately matters will become EVEN WORSE when that
> money runs out.
>
> We will never solve our current economic problem by shuffling paper
> and pretending that paper shuffling actually creates wealth.. it
> doesn't.. it just re-distributes wealth upward to a select few.
>
> America needs to re-industrialize itself. It's the only way out.
> And there's no time start but NOW.. and by saving the US auto
> industry.

(bumped up)

== 2 of 17 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 4:25 pm
From: Nate Nagel

lorad wrote:
> On Dec 13, 4:13 pm, lorad <lorad...@cs.com> wrote:
>> On Dec 13, 7:20 am, wis...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>
>> Asian auto-maker propaganda [snipped]
>>
>> Rather than sending your dollars to Tokyo or Seoul, try to help your
>> neighbors and yourself by buying a US made automobile. As is well
>> known.. keeping one dollar in your local economy, generates even more
>> dollars as that money recirculates creating compounded wealth.
>>
>> The PRIMARY reason that the US economy is failing is due to the
>> reduction of US manufacturing capability which results in fewer
>> exports and more imports over the last 15 years.
>> The US's wealth has been drained away.
>>
>> If we lose the auto industry in America, we also lose 1/7th of all US
>> jobs.
>> Think about that.
>>
>> The wall-street giveaway of 800 BILLION to a crook business sector
>> might keep the house of cards aloft (and the super-rich richer) for a
>> year or two... but ultimately matters will become EVEN WORSE when that
>> money runs out.
>>
>> We will never solve our current economic problem by shuffling paper
>> and pretending that paper shuffling actually creates wealth.. it
>> doesn't.. it just re-distributes wealth upward to a select few.
>>
>> America needs to re-industrialize itself. It's the only way out.
>> And there's no time start but NOW.. and by saving the US auto
>> industry.
>
> (bumped up)

I'd consider it, but my local mechanic tells me he has all the business
he can handle, so I don't feel the need to help him out.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

== 3 of 17 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 4:37 pm
From: russotto@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew Russotto)

In article <gi13bn03ft@news4.newsguy.com>,
SoCalMike <mikein562athotmail@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>from what ive read, theyre asking for "loan guarantees". no one said
>jack squat when the bankers flew to DC in THEIR jets and walked away
>with $700B.

You must have missed all the screaming and the failure of the first vote
on the bailout package.

>And then when they GOT it, they promptly gave each other
>bonuses and vacation retreats for the "job well done".

Actually that was AIG, which got a separate deal. Personally I think
they need to be sent to a retreat in Leavenworth, KS...

--
It's times like these which make me glad my bank is Dial-a-Mattress

== 4 of 17 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 4:38 pm
From: russotto@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew Russotto)

In article <ZxU0l.3912$jr1.1931@newsfe05.iad>,
clams_casino <PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:
>SoCalMike wrote:
>
>> clams_casino wrote:
>>
>>> servicing goes a long ways to extend the life of a relatively
>>> expensive investment.
>>
>>
>> cars are NEVER an investment. theyre appliances.
>
>Agreed. I was using that term loosely. Relatively expensive
>"expenditure" would probably have been a better description considering
>they are most always a (money) losing "investment".

Cars are durable goods, like large appliances. Unless they're from GM
or Chrysler.
--
It's times like these which make me glad my bank is Dial-a-Mattress

== 5 of 17 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 4:43 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote
> Rod Speed wrote
>> Brent <tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com> wrote

>>> Perception is the game these days

>> Like hell it is. The reality these days is that any decently designed car
>> will last for decades with no maintenance whatever apart from tyres etc.

> A little more than just tyres maybe.

The word etc was included for a reason.

> Brake discs / rotors, pads and shoes,

You wouldnt necessarily need any of those in a single decade, particularly with normal mileage.

> windscreen wipers, fluids,

Those were obviously included in the etc.

> a change of good synthetic oil every 12,000 mi,

You can get away with not bothering with that with an OHC engine.

> miscellaneous oddball bits.

There arent any of those with a properly designed car.

> Don't forget the exhaust if not stainless.

Thats covered by the properly designed.

> But yes, you are fundamentally right. I've had no trouble getting 180k mi out of European cars.

Me too, kraut cars in my case.

> And they were still basically decent runners at that point.

Yep, the only reason I replaced the Golf after 35+ years was because I was stupid
enough to not do anything about the known windscreen rubber leak with a car that
had never seen a home garage in its entire life which eventually rusted the floor.

Only did a couple of very minor repairs, one alternator regulator, one distributor button, one petrol hose replacement.

Didnt ever bother to change the oil at all and it didnt give a damn.

== 6 of 17 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 4:43 pm
From: "Dave"

"lorad" <lorad474@cs.com> wrote in message
news:1632a96d-2982-4282-8688-7248db34659d@t39g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
On Dec 13, 7:20 am, wis...@yahoo.com wrote:

>Asian auto-maker propaganda [snipped]

>Rather than sending your dollars to Tokyo or Seoul, try to help your
>neighbors and yourself by buying a US made automobile.

OK, I'll go buy a 2009 Toyota Camry. I'll get my wife a 2009 Acura RDX.
I'll buy my son a 2009 Hyundai Sonata. All made with pride by U.S. workers
in U.S. factories. :) -Dave

== 7 of 17 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 4:50 pm
From: The Real Bev

Alan Baker wrote:
>
>>> You're really stretching the matter to avoid reality, aren't you?
>> No, just pointing out that there are vehicle types your chosen makes
>> ignore.
>
> Nope. Just trying to ignore that the S2000 is a better vehicle than
> *any* american made RWD vehicle. Yes: including the Corvette.

I thought that the Corvette was thought to be cheaply made and that the
Camaro was an even cheaper version. Still, Camaros strike some chord
deep within my soul...

--
Cheers, Bev
==============================
All bleeding eventually stops.

== 8 of 17 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 5:00 pm
From: clams_casino

Brent wrote:

>
>
>You've had 3 cars since 2000? Holy crap. I've had the same ford since
>1996.
>

We average over 30k miles/ year.

My newest car - 2005 Pilot just hit 95k. Next year will be the
expensive year. I'll need to replace the original tires plus replace
the timing gear & water pump as recommended along with a 105k tune-up, etc.

Other than gas, oil changes & routine Honda servicing at 30k and 60k
miles, my only repair expenses so far have been $15 to repair a flat,
three sets of windshield wipers and perhaps $4 for window wash.

The 2000 Accord is still running very well at 180k - still running a
second set of tires, one brake change, one alternator change, one gas &
water pump change and two headlight replacements plus one pollution
device repair / replacement. We briefly owned a 2004 Pilot for nearly
a year when it was declared totaled after a drunk 16 year old (
licensed for two weeks) hit it 45 degrees head on while it was parked
(legally / unoccupied) on the street. His Ford Explorer was also
declared totaled. He rammed it across the granite curbing which
collapsed the four wheel assemblies and into two cars parked in a
driveway, damaging the side & back as it was spun around & sandwiched
between the cars.

My previous vehicles included a 1984 Caravan that required two
transmissions before I junked it at 120k (amongst other problems) when a
third one was needed, a 1986 GMC van that went through a set of tires
every 25k miles due to poor alignment (and numerous short circuit
problems), which had to be junked at 125k since it would not pass state
pollution testing without extensive engine repair and a 1994 Chrysler
Lebrun convertible which I still own at 105k that required $2k in
repairs this past year and $1k in 2007. It's my fun car - used only
about 4k miles / year in recent years, primarily in the summer. The $3K
is much more than I've put into the three Honda cars, but considering it
is 15 years old, I can accept the fact that some repairs are age rather
than mileage related (new belts, hoses, etc).

Yes, I have owned a number of cars.

== 9 of 17 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 5:12 pm
From: clams_casino

Brent wrote:

>So was the cimmeron but dressing up a cavalier didn't make it so.
>
>
>
>
Owned an 82 Cavalier wagon. Steering went out at 52k, at which time I
learned that it was covered by a recall only until 50k. Engine died at
85k - only 4 cylinder I ever owned. Mileage was poor from what I
recall, although it wasn't as bad as the 8 mpg I averaged in my 74 Ford
Torino. That had a 27.5 gallon tank. Otherwise, I'd probably have had
to fill it up every other day. Actually put over 26 gallons into it one
cold morning during the gas rationing.. It had the famous Firestone
tires that failed by 20k miles (radials ate through the side walls).
Unfortunately, Ford didn't have a recall until six months later and
would only replace them pay) if the originals were made available. So
much for being a high mileage driver. So much for Firestone products -
and yes, I enjoyed seeing them go bankrupt.

== 10 of 17 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 5:18 pm
From: clams_casino

lorad wrote:

>
>If we lose the auto industry in America, we also lose 1/7th of all US
>jobs.
>Think about that.
>
>

I am - Does that include all the US plants run by Honda, Toyota, BMW,
Mercedes, etc? Does that figure also include all the car dealers who
provide more jobs than the car companies?

Does that assume all production will go overseas and no one will be
driving (buying cars) in the US?

Sounds like propaganda to me.

== 11 of 17 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 6:00 pm
From: edward ohare

On Sat, 13 Dec 2008 14:48:30 -0800, "'nam vet."
<georgewkspam@humboldt1.com> wrote:

>In article <03c8k41i1u31md3dklk706579b2ugli0rp@4ax.com>,
> edward ohare <edward_ohare@nospam.yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 13 Dec 2008 08:20:34 -0700, wismel@yahoo.com wrote:
>>
>> Don't buy a Big 3 vehicle in 2009?
>>
>> Why not? They'll be real cheap at the bankruptcy sale.
>
>some car manufacturers keep the repair codes secret. like only
>authorized dealers can fix your car.
>be aware ! be very aware !

Someone will buy the repair information at the bankruptcy sale. And
parts that they'll sell. Etc.

== 12 of 17 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 6:00 pm
From: "Daniel T."

lorad <lorad474@cs.com> wrote:

> On Dec 13, 7:20 am, wis...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> If we lose the auto industry in America, we also lose 1/7th of all US
> jobs.
> Think about that.

Really? How do you figure that? What does "losing the auto industry"
even mean?

== 13 of 17 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 6:06 pm
From: Harold Burton

In article <0ck7k4lhdjqmlmma7ehulutbp40jg0cunl@4ax.com>,
wismel@yahoo.com wrote:

> It's time to teach the Big 3 and their UAW co-conspirators* that the
> American public does not need their products or companies as now
> constructed....

I've been teaching GM, Ford, and Chrysler that for over 30 years. They
sold me shit twice and I've been telling them to fuck off ever since.
Thank you Honda and Toyota for providing quality products. That's why I
keep buying from them rather than the "big 3 (soon to the be small 3)".

== 14 of 17 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 6:07 pm
From: Harold Burton

In article <03c8k41i1u31md3dklk706579b2ugli0rp@4ax.com>,
edward ohare <edward_ohare@nospam.yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:

> On Sat, 13 Dec 2008 08:20:34 -0700, wismel@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> Don't buy a Big 3 vehicle in 2009?
>
> Why not? They'll be real cheap at the bankruptcy sale.

Not in the long run.

== 15 of 17 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 6:16 pm
From: Alan Baker

In article <gi1l86$ppm$3@news.motzarella.org>,
The Real Bev <bashley101+M@gmail.com> wrote:

> Alan Baker wrote:
> >
> >>> You're really stretching the matter to avoid reality, aren't you?
> >> No, just pointing out that there are vehicle types your chosen makes
> >> ignore.
> >
> > Nope. Just trying to ignore that the S2000 is a better vehicle than
> > *any* american made RWD vehicle. Yes: including the Corvette.
>
> I thought that the Corvette was thought to be cheaply made and that the
> Camaro was an even cheaper version. Still, Camaros strike some chord
> deep within my soul...

Early Lotuses strike a chord with me...

...but it doesn't mean that they weren't POS when it came to quality.

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
<http://gallery.me.com/alangbaker/100008/DSCF0162/web.jpg>

== 16 of 17 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 6:18 pm
From: Alan Baker

In article
<1632a96d-2982-4282-8688-7248db34659d@t39g2000prh.googlegroups.com>,
lorad <lorad474@cs.com> wrote:

> On Dec 13, 7:20 am, wis...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> Asian auto-maker propaganda [snipped]
>
> Rather than sending your dollars to Tokyo or Seoul, try to help your
> neighbors and yourself by buying a US made automobile. As is well
> known.. keeping one dollar in your local economy, generates even more
> dollars as that money recirculates creating compounded wealth.
>
> The PRIMARY reason that the US economy is failing is due to the
> reduction of US manufacturing capability which results in fewer
> exports and more imports over the last 15 years.
> The US's wealth has been drained away.
>
> If we lose the auto industry in America, we also lose 1/7th of all US
> jobs.
> Think about that.
>
> The wall-street giveaway of 800 BILLION to a crook business sector
> might keep the house of cards aloft (and the super-rich richer) for a
> year or two... but ultimately matters will become EVEN WORSE when that
> money runs out.
>
> We will never solve our current economic problem by shuffling paper
> and pretending that paper shuffling actually creates wealth.. it
> doesn't.. it just re-distributes wealth upward to a select few.
>
> America needs to re-industrialize itself. It's the only way out.
> And there's no time start but NOW.. and by saving the US auto
> industry.

Instead of doing that, just give me $20.

That will keep your money in the local economy, too, right?

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
<http://gallery.me.com/alangbaker/100008/DSCF0162/web.jpg>

== 17 of 17 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 6:35 pm
From: Brent

On 2008-12-14, clams_casino <PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:
> Brent wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>You've had 3 cars since 2000? Holy crap. I've had the same ford since
>>1996.

> We average over 30k miles/ year.

So?

> My newest car - 2005 Pilot just hit 95k. Next year will be the
> expensive year. I'll need to replace the original tires plus replace
> the timing gear & water pump as recommended along with a 105k tune-up, etc.

95K on one set of tires sounds irresponsible.

> Other than gas, oil changes & routine Honda servicing at 30k and 60k
> miles, my only repair expenses so far have been $15 to repair a flat,
> three sets of windshield wipers and perhaps $4 for window wash.

It's 3 years old I wouldn't expect anything more.

> The 2000 Accord is still running very well at 180k - still running a
> second set of tires, one brake change, one alternator change, one gas &
> water pump change and two headlight replacements plus one pollution
> device repair / replacement.

It's only 8 years old.

You're piling on milage but not the time and environmental damage.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Are name-brand low-energy fluorescent "Green" bulbs any brighter than
store brand?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/16514de0eabde21c?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 4:19 pm
From: "Macuser"

As far as I know, they're ALL made in China, but I said I prefer the bulbs
be name brand because they tend to have a more attractive glow. GE and other
brands tend to be much warmer as far as I have seen. One bulb I have fires
up as a dim colored rose bulb, and then it brightens to be a full spectrum
bulb. It's pretty weird.

--
http://cashcuddler.com

"Thrift is sexy."

>
> Even the "name brand" ones are made in China, though some are better than
> others. The spectrum is determined by the color temperature, not by the
> brand that makes them. 2700K is incandescent lookalike, 3100K is often
> referred to as soft white, occasionally you see 3500K which are a bit
> cooler, and then 5500K-6000K is referred to as "daylight". A few companies
> charge exorbitant prices for daylight fluorescents marketing them as some
> sort of magical sunlight substitute, they're no different than the
> daylight cfls you can buy at most hardware stores for a few dollars.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 4:19 pm
From: "Macuser"

--
http://cashcuddler.com

"Thrift is sexy."

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Your favorite free e-card?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/8bf2062ff2236938?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 4:47 pm
From: The Real Bev

Bob F wrote:
> "The Real Bev" <bashley101+M@gmail.com> wrote:
>> James wrote:
>>> Have you found a really good one that you would recommend?
>> Maybe. What's an e-card?
>
> I think it is a way to give your friends e-mail addresses to companies so they
> can sell them to spammers.

I'd guess they'd all be equally good, then. Or maybe a better one would
actually pay US for the addresses, eliminating the middleman.

--
Cheers, Bev
==============================
All bleeding eventually stops.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Selling artwork in a bad market
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/d3b0c99328f52aea?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 4:58 pm
From: The Real Bev

Macuser wrote:
> Oy, not good! This is fine art and I won't put it outside with the castoff
> knick-knacks.

People who say that end up at the end of the day with a lot of "fine
art" on their hands that not even the Salvation Army is interested in.

> I think I will contact several dealers about the stuff. Maybe the art market
> will recover at bit in late 2009.

Perhaps, but Id be willing to bet that yours won't be in the
upwardly-mobile group.

Why not test the waters with ebay?

--
Cheers, Bev
==============================
All bleeding eventually stops.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Pennies on the street
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/d8ebb8d9fdd5bbd9?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 5:02 pm
From: The Real Bev

Macuser wrote:
> For years, I saw lots of pennies on the side because they were no longer of
> interest. Now, I hardly ever see them. It seems that people have returned to
> picking up pennies. Do you pick up coins? I prefer they be five cents or
> higher before I'll bend down.

I'll pick up any coin if I'm walking, but I won't get off my bicycle for
less than a nickel, and not even that if I have to stop in the middle of
an intersection.

I once found a $10 bill in the gutter. Sure I picked it up.

I used to pick up aluminum cans. When I had enough I turned them in and
bought a nifty Miyata bicycle.

--
Cheers, Bev
==============================
All bleeding eventually stops.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Why not a holiday from auto buying?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/9e36c73bdf3daf50?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 5:04 pm
From: aemeijers

bhanwaram@netscape.net wrote:
> On Dec 6, 8:59 pm, "hall...@aol.com" <hall...@aol.com> wrote:
>> big 3 saw customers wanted SUVs so they built them, gasoline cost
>> skyrocketed, fiancials tanked SUV sales dried up. big 3 now on edge of
>> bankruptcy.
>>
>
> Well put.
>
> Now the big 3 are run by people who make 400+ times
> more than the basic worker, so they are roughly 400+
> times wiser, smarter, more ruthless, etc than a basic
> human person.
>
> Clearly, they should have seen what would happen when
> the gasoline price started to spike. (For that matter,
> shouldn't all other CEO's whose companies eventually
> suffer from a chain reaction to the price spike, also
> see that in advance?)
>
> The gasoline price spike was not a natural demand-supply
> thing, it was some sort of a weird unnatural freakish thing.
>
> So the big 3's management, who are 400+ times wiser,
> smarter, more ruthless, etc, than a normal human,
> should have gotten together and killed this gasoline
> price spike before it grew big enough to start killing
> their companies. That would have been the time to
> go to the congress, kick and screan, hire investigators,
> whatever they needed to use their 400+ super-human
> abilities to stop the gasoline price spike in its tracks.
>
> Why didn't they?
Feds share part of the blame here- a big reason SUVs happened is that
the CAFE rules made it impossible to sell full-size station wagons
(which is what most early SUV buyers had previously bought, and what
they really needed), without charging the gas guzzler tax. What is an
SUV (most of which never go off-road) but a tall, ugly, bad-handling
station wagon, that gets even crappier gas mileage than the vehicle that
it replaced? For people that tow stuff, or thought they might need to
someday, no FWD vehicle cut the mustard- that sold more SUVs. Then SUVs
became trendy, and the downward spiral started...

The law of unintended consequences, etc.

--
aem sends...

==============================================================================
TOPIC: when/where are the Christmas sales?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/1e540ad7239f670a?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 5:22 pm
From: "Macuser"

I shopped at the Wal-Mart where the poor guy got stomped to death, and found
two excellent DVDs for $2 each. All appeared normal at the location, except
for the candles out front and the memorial attendant....

Target took a while to start lowering their electronics prices, and I was
able to get a really nice camera for $89.

--
http://cashcuddler.com

"Thrift is sexy."

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Saving Money on Calendars
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/9b326729403ee2be?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 13 2008 6:39 pm
From: Dave Garland

SoCalMike wrote:
> Evelyn Leeper wrote:
>> The year 2009 is a non-leap-year starting on a Thursday. The most
>> recent identical year was 1998 if you want to recycle an old calendar.
>> If not, you can, as you can any year, use May of the previous year for
>> January. Then about mid- to late January you can get a new calendar
>> at a half or a quarter of what they cost now.
>
> i just buy one at the 99 cent store. works great for me!

I just pick up a few at the hardware store, another few at the liquor
store, the clothing store, the Chinese grocery. Plus there's the one
I get in the mail from the college I didn't graduate from but that
dreams that I'll leave them a lot of money when I die. Even in these
hard times, there are plenty of places giving them away.

And there's Sunbird (free) for my computer, so I get a calendar when I
boot up.

I like the idea of saving them, but then I wouldn't find the right one
until too late, and would have to wait another 11 years to use it.
Maybe that works for somebody who's more organized than me.

Dave

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Saturday, December 13, 2008

misc.consumers.frugal-living - 25 new messages in 8 topics - digest

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