Frugal Living: 25 new messages in 12 topics

Friday, February 15, 2008

25 new messages in 12 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Miss Manners on mooching
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/2df47c14e1b1f6a5?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 15 2008 9:15 am
From: lenona321@yahoo.com

It's the second letter, about elderly singles clubs.

http://www.contracostatimes.com/living/ci_8270178

I found this interesting:

"Miss Manners understands that the time in which domestic work was
assigned by gender is past. But so is the time right afterward, when
both genders were supposed to take turns doing all the exact same
tasks.

"Sensible people have, Miss Manners hopes, come around to realizing
that everyone is happier if allowed to contribute what he or she does
best."

On the one hand, of course, she's right. Plus, bean counting never
makes families (though family is not the subject here) happy.

Unfortunately, one thing she seldom talks about is how it's often a
difference of HOURS spent on work that causes domestic resentment, not
necessarily the type of work done, whether paid or unpaid. Assuming
we're not talking about the expectations of an antiseptic freak, for
example.

Lenona.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Dollar Tree, Victor NY, worst customer service ever
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/afd0336a0edfead1?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 15 2008 9:16 am
From: Steve

Damn, and here I just scheduled a 3-week vacation to Victor, NY. Gotta
run, see if I can cancel those plane tickets...

Even he, to whom most things that most people
would think were pretty smart were pretty dumb,
thought it was pretty smart.

...Douglas Adams

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 15 2008 2:14 pm
From: "Stormin Mormon"

They still have a Copy Max, and one of the last remaining K-Mart. I'd keep
the tickets. You'll have to check with your tour guide, and change the
schedule around a bit. Find something else to do with the four days you'd
scheduled at Dollar Tree.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus

www.lds.org
.

"Steve" <hgd@wsx.inv> wrote in message
news:f6ibr352dmq1ivtq110ovqso968jli9sf2@4ax.com...

Damn, and here I just scheduled a 3-week vacation to Victor, NY. Gotta
run, see if I can cancel those plane tickets...

Even he, to whom most things that most people
would think were pretty smart were pretty dumb,
thought it was pretty smart.

...Douglas Adams

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Calendar downloads?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/200a513c0b463960?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 15 2008 9:37 am
From: Tony Sivori

pc wrote:
>
> I'm working in Linux now,

Hey, me too.

> on this computer, and I'm a total n00b. I

I've been at it four or five years now.

> suppose I could fire up the MS computer and look into the word
> processing part. But, with searches..I didn't find much on the web that
> would fit my needs no matter what operating system I use.
>
> It just galls me that Day Runner type inserts are so expensive.
>
> I had hoped with my new eeepc, I would have been able to use the
> Thunderbird calendar extension. This is almost like using a PDA, like
> someone else suggested. But, it's not quite sufficient for me.
>
> So, if anybody has any further ideas I'm all ears.

Not what you're looking for, since there is no space to write, but you may
not have seen this: open a shell / console, type "cal" (no quotes) and
press enter. For a calendar of any year, type "cal" followed by the
desired year. Example: cal 2008.

[user@**** user]$ cal 2008
2008

January February March
Su Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa Su Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa Su Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa
1 2 3 4 5 1 2 1
6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
13 14 15 16 17 18 19 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 9 10 11 12 13 14 15
20 21 22 23 24 25 26 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 16 17 18 19 20 21 22
27 28 29 30 31 24 25 26 27 28 29 23 24 25 26 27 28 29
30 31
April May June
Su Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa Su Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa Su Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa
1 2 3 4 5 1 2 3 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
6 7 8 9 10 11 12 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 8 9 10 11 12 13 14
13 14 15 16 17 18 19 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 15 16 17 18 19 20 21
20 21 22 23 24 25 26 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 22 23 24 25 26 27 28
27 28 29 30 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 29 30

July August September
Su Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa Su Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa Su Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa
1 2 3 4 5 1 2 1 2 3 4 5 6
6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 7 8 9 10 11 12 13
13 14 15 16 17 18 19 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
20 21 22 23 24 25 26 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 21 22 23 24 25 26 27
27 28 29 30 31 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 28 29 30
31
October November December
Su Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa Su Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa Su Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa
1 2 3 4 1 1 2 3 4 5 6
5 6 7 8 9 10 11 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 7 8 9 10 11 12 13
12 13 14 15 16 17 18 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
19 20 21 22 23 24 25 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 21 22 23 24 25 26 27
26 27 28 29 30 31 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 28 29 30 31
30

The above calendar may be badly mangled by the line wrap.

Keep in mind the with the Linux command line, you can easily cut, copy,
paste and print.

Moving on to suggestions that may actually suit your needs, Google has a
calendar application:

www.google.com/calendar

Have you tried KOrganizer? It is already installed with the distro I'm
using, under Time Management in the system menu.

http://kontact.kde.org/korganizer/

How to make a custom calendar with Open Office (looks rather time
consuming to me):

http://www.linux.com/feature/122265

If none of the above suits you, it shouldn't take too long to find
something that suits your needs here:

http://tinyurl.com/ytfzq2

Just look for a web page based application that lets you print. I did that
a couple of years ago when I needed a calendar with Julian dates.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 15 2008 9:37 am
From: Tony Sivori

pc wrote:

> Hi group ..
>
> I am looking for free calendars that I can download. I am looking for
> things similar to the Dayminder, Dayrunner options.
>
> I went to a couple of stores recently and they all wanted a minimum of
> 15 dollars. This seems outrageous to me. Especially because none of
> them were exactly what I wanted.

I've had good luck getting nice calendars for $1 at The Dollar Tree, if
you happen to have one near you. Big squares with plenty of room to
write. Likely it is too late for this year, I'd guess they are sold out by
now.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/e565eaf98e0e70b6?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 15 2008 10:17 am
From: jakdedert

Lou wrote:
<snip>
> And let's not forget that in order to drive, s/he needs a vehicle, one that
> is probably more or less dedicated to the business, and that has to be paid
> for also.
>
> According to http://www.careeroverview.com/plumbing-careers.html the median
> wage for a plumber in 2002 was $19.30/hour. Assuming a 40 hour work week
> for 50 weeks a year, that comes to $38,600/year. Doesn't sound like a way
> to get rich quick.
>
The wage to the technician is just a starting point, since few are
independent contractors. Most work for larger concerns who also must
pay ancillary personnel.

> A question on the cost of the permit - how much would it cost if you went to
> the town office and got the permit yourself?
>
>
A cost that nobody seems to have factored in, is removal and disposal of
the old water heater. In some areas of this country, that can be
substantial. In others...well, I've seen a lot of old water heaters
littering the countryside.

Also, access is a serious issue in many structures; and this applies
equally to both removal and installation. I could easily replace the
unit in my basement; but I once had a shop where the heater was mounted
in the attic. That one would have required a couple of guys for a
couple of hours to replace--involving ropes & pulleys, not to mention a
significant amount of risk--in addition to the normal procedures.

jak

== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 15 2008 10:26 am
From: "hallerb@aol.com"

On Feb 15, 1:17�pm, jakdedert <jakded...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> Lou wrote:
>
> <snip>> And let's not forget that in order to drive, s/he needs a vehicle, one that
> > is probably more or less dedicated to the business, and that has to be paid
> > for also.
>
> > According tohttp://www.careeroverview.com/plumbing-careers.htmlthe median
> > wage for a plumber in 2002 was $19.30/hour. �Assuming a 40 hour work week
> > for 50 weeks a year, that comes to $38,600/year. �Doesn't sound like a way
> > to get rich quick.
>
> The wage to the technician is just a starting point, since few are
> independent contractors. �Most work for larger concerns who also must
> pay ancillary personnel.
>
> > A question on the cost of the permit - how much would it cost if you went to
> > the town office and got the permit yourself?
>
> A cost that nobody seems to have factored in, is removal and disposal of
> the old water heater. �In some areas of this country, that can be
> substantial. �In others...well, I've seen a lot of old water heaters
> littering the countryside.
>
> Also, access is a serious issue in many structures; and this applies
> equally to both removal and installation. �I could easily replace the
> unit in my basement; but I once had a shop where the heater was mounted
> in the attic. �That one would have required a couple of guys for a
> couple of hours to replace--involving ropes & pulleys, not to mention a
> significant amount of risk--in addition to the normal procedures.
>
> jak

scrap steel has value everywhere, minimial but still a little money.
so you haul the junk heater and get candy bar money. around here trash
takes them but they often get picked up before that

== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 15 2008 10:40 am
From: "James Sweet"

>>
> The wage to the technician is just a starting point, since few are
> independent contractors. Most work for larger concerns who also must pay
> ancillary personnel.
>

I understand a business has to make money, but I don't, I have a fulltime
job, I do this stuff as a favor for friends, hence the substantially lower
price.

>>
> A cost that nobody seems to have factored in, is removal and disposal of
> the old water heater. In some areas of this country, that can be
> substantial. In others...well, I've seen a lot of old water heaters
> littering the countryside.
>

Cost? I get money for the old units at the recycler, it's an insignificant
amount, but probably enough to cover the fuel spent getting it there.

== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 15 2008 11:16 am
From: jakdedert

James Sweet wrote:
>> The wage to the technician is just a starting point, since few are
>> independent contractors. Most work for larger concerns who also must pay
>> ancillary personnel.
>>
>
> I understand a business has to make money, but I don't, I have a fulltime
> job, I do this stuff as a favor for friends, hence the substantially lower
> price.
>
I understand that, in your case. The thread had to do with commercial
installers. If we all had a 'buddy named James' there would be no need
for businesses which do this day in/out. In fact, that's the way most
things were done, 'back when', but it's not the norm anymore.
>
>> A cost that nobody seems to have factored in, is removal and disposal of
>> the old water heater. In some areas of this country, that can be
>> substantial. In others...well, I've seen a lot of old water heaters
>> littering the countryside.
>>
>
> Cost? I get money for the old units at the recycler, it's an insignificant
> amount, but probably enough to cover the fuel spent getting it there.
>
>
That's because you have access to the recycler, know where it is, and
have a vehicle suitable to transport...also the time. I know it's
trivial to many--but monumental to others. I'd be hard-pressed to get a
50 gallon water heater in my old Corolla, although it could be done
(it's a station wagon). I'd want to put in several layers of padding
and some waterproofing. Many would not want to do so in their late
model Whizzmobiles.

Like I said, I've seen a lot of discarded water heaters....

jak

== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 15 2008 2:03 pm
From: "hallerb@aol.com"

Funny the title of this discussion was quick basic advice and now has
over 160 posts:)

yep er quick and basic:) Lots of useful info!!

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Bringing families together!
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/3ae2c0262cafb624?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 15 2008 10:36 am
From: afmtruck

Free* long distance calls for your family and friends across the
globe: they now can call you free*.

No computer, no internet, no hardware to buy and no expertise
required... access to a regular phone is all that's needed! And yes, you
can return their calls overseas for a fraction of the cost and
establish your local presence at the same time. Get your own local
number with MyLocalCall(tm).

Sign-up (it's easy and free) for more details and to see the amazing
rates!

http://www.mylocalcall.com/?ng0215

==============================================================================
TOPIC: WORK FROM HOME WITH INTRNET,HOW?HERE THE ANSWER
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/dbb050e1fa89349e?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 15 2008 11:48 am
From: "mezdek1@gmail.com"

http://glycoblug.webs.com/makemoneywithadsense.htm

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 15 2008 11:48 am
From: "mezdek1@gmail.com"

http://glycoblug.webs.com/makemoneywithadsense.htm

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Flea Marketing
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/d8f649f613287972?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 15 2008 11:58 am
From: ai9kwsvz

I feel that the best way for you to start out is by selling all of the
items around your house that you no longer want. Please share your
comments.
George
http://www.flea-marketing-secrets.com

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 15 2008 2:23 pm
From: Al Bundy

ai9kwsvz wrote:
> I feel that the best way for you to start out is by selling all of the
> items around your house that you no longer want. Please share your
> comments.
> George

Saves a lot of time to just throw junk out, part it out, or give it
away. I don't need any $30 book for the purpose.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Stamps to Cost a Penny More
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/729cf5df8392523c?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 15 2008 12:41 pm
From: Terry

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hjB4Dif5oP6LbcPH0zPJAIy37EugD8UOAH8O6

== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 15 2008 12:48 pm
From: clams_casino

Terry wrote:

>http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hjB4Dif5oP6LbcPH0zPJAIy37EugD8UOAH8O6
>
>

A way to make a million dollars - buy up ten million stamps at 41 cents
each & resell them at 42 cents.

vs. the ebay way - start with 2M & end up with 1M.

== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 15 2008 12:56 pm
From: Terry Terry

On Feb 15, 3:48 pm, clams_casino <PeterGrif...@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:
> Terry wrote:
> >http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hjB4Dif5oP6LbcPH0zPJAIy37EugD8UOAH8O6
>
> A way to make a million dollars - buy up ten million stamps at 41 cents
> each & resell them at 42 cents.
>
> vs. the ebay way - start with 2M & end up with 1M.

That would work except for the postage costs. :)

== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 15 2008 2:31 pm
From: Al Bundy

On Feb 15, 3:56 pm, Terry Terry <kilow...@charter.net> wrote:
> On Feb 15, 3:48 pm, clams_casino <PeterGrif...@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:
>
> > Terry wrote:
> > >http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hjB4Dif5oP6LbcPH0zPJAIy37EugD8UOAH8O6
>
> > A way to make a million dollars - buy up ten million stamps at 41 cents
> > each & resell them at 42 cents.
>
> > vs. the ebay way - start with 2M & end up with 1M.
>
> That would work except for the postage costs. :)

The way this usually works here is that you won't be able to buy
"forever" stamps or the new 41¢ stamps until after they are needed.
All we will see is the old stamps and a 1¢ "make-up" stamp until they
purge the inventory of the old stuff.

== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 15 2008 2:34 pm
From: clams_casino

Terry Terry wrote:

>On Feb 15, 3:48 pm, clams_casino <PeterGrif...@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Terry wrote:
>>
>>
>>>http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hjB4Dif5oP6LbcPH0zPJAIy37EugD8UOAH8O6
>>>
>>>
>>A way to make a million dollars - buy up ten million stamps at 41 cents
>>each & resell them at 42 cents.
>>
>>vs. the ebay way - start with 2M & end up with 1M.
>>
>>
>
>That would work except for the postage costs. :)
>
>

True. The eBay return will likely be only about 1/2M after postage costs.,

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Use patio furniture as front room furniture?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/f67d143f0a103614?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 15 2008 1:10 pm
From: me@privacy.net

Am on a very tight budget

anyone ever think abt using patio furniture indoors as
front room furniture?

You can buy a well made set of patio furniture....
chair, love seat, coffee table, end table... for abt
$500 total. It is lightweight and sturdy and made of
plastic "wicker".

Anyone doing it? Work ok?

see link

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=2519819

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 15 2008 1:46 pm
From: "rox"

<me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:fmvbr31bo4bnsfu3eng45gng5arc9v2cd1@4ax.com...
> Am on a very tight budget
>
> anyone ever think abt using patio furniture indoors as
> front room furniture?
>
> You can buy a well made set of patio furniture....
> chair, love seat, coffee table, end table... for abt
> $500 total. It is lightweight and sturdy and made of
> plastic "wicker".
>
> Anyone doing it? Work ok?
>
> see link
>
> http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=2519819

Buying furniture that's cheap but uncomfortable (and be honest no one wants
to lay on wicker patio furniture and watch TV on a lazy Sunday afternoon) is
not frugal as you will have to replace it for something more functional and
comfortable. And patio furniture is rarely "sturdy" at that price.

You can buy a full set of real living room furniture at a second hand or
thrift shop for under $200. Or you can go to yard sales. I live 14 miles
outside of New York City, one of the most--if not the most--expensive areas
to live in and I paid $50 for a couch that was in perfect condition. I
found a sturdy "This End Up" chair at the curb--they are all wood, no
cushions, and look like packing crates--very easy to clean. I bought 2 new
pillows for it, so that cost me $20. Even with the cost/time to clean a
used set you'll be better off in the long run.

If you are not in a hurry, you can be selective about what set you buy. You
might even find one for free on craigslist or freecycle

==============================================================================
TOPIC: New Low Cost Jewels Make Luxury Affordable For All
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/f4f42cc215a86516?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 15 2008 1:36 pm
From: xikom03@yeah.net

For centuries sparkling, beautiful jewels have been THE sign of wealth
and luxury the world over. Wearing quality jewelry makes just about
everyone feel special and look better. Jewels have had such a long and
lasting importance in our world that we give them as a sign of our
most treasured possession -- a long-term relationship.

Increasingly, wearing fine jewelry can be a noticeable sign of your
success and achievement. Walk into a business meeting wearing an eye-
catching ring, bracelet, or watch and your stature immediately rises
as perceived by those around you. Your ideas seem more important and
your power to prevail increases.

Centuries ago only Kings and Queens could afford jewels. Even in
recent years, only the well-healed could afford a nice selection of
quality jewels.

You could expect to pay anywhere from $800 to $5,000 for a nice piece
of jewelry. That meant either wiping out your retirement account or
making monthly payments, sometimes for years.

Today all that has changed for the better. Recent changes and
discoveries in the jewelry market have made wearing fine jewelry more
affordable than ever in history. Gold rings with genuine stones can
now be purchased online and elsewhere for well under $100. I recently
found a genuine white gold diamond ring for just $129.99.

Another option that is used today to keep the costs affordable is to
use a sterling silver base and coat it with gold. Prior to this
method, the only affordable jewelry was to use sterling silver but it
had the disadvantage of tarnishing. This new method offers many
advantages. It does not tarnish because it is gold plated, it is more
beautiful than sterling silver and it is certainly more affordable.

Those kinds of prices put fine jewelry in a whole new light. For many
of us, the $100 to $150 range falls into the realm of an easy
purchase. You can buy it just because it makes you feel good without
having any impact on your budget.

New much lower jewelry prices mean you can have a different style or
color of jewelry to go with each of your suits. You can have a several-
piece collection of similar designs to go with

http://www.dontplayplay.com/html/Bothsexes/20061002/46985.html

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Sewing Machines: Making A Comeback?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/04891ec8941a20e8?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 15 2008 2:06 pm
From: rota6566@yahoo.com.tw

While we don't have to rely on sewing machines to satisfy our basic
clothing needs, more and more people today turn to sewing to create
unique, luxurious, one-of-a-kind pieces. Every family has that hand
embroidered grandmother's table cloth or a hand-made quilt, and these
pieces are as cherished as the most sophisticated haute couture
creations. And instead of paying hefty sums to someone for creating
these little pieces of luxury for you, you can develop the easy skills
of making your own monograms, embroideries or even hand-sewn button-
holes - all the little luxuries that make the difference.

With the help of a reliable sewing machine, you can instantly
personalize a lot of everyday necessities. For example, you can create
a set of unique napkins or add a classy touch to your bed linen and
bath towels with a monogram. And with a little practice you can even
alter and mend your clothes.

When choosing your first sewing machine, make sure you understand how
much sewing you plan to do. The honest answer will save you money and
time, as you will not pick a too complex and upscale sewing machine
for your basic sewing needs.

If you plan to study sewing and even recreate expensive designer
clothes to save money, you will need a more upscale sewing machine.
Sewing your own clothes makes sense only if your sewing skills are
high enough to recreate high-end clothes, such as suits, jackets and
dresses. You won't save money on sewing your own jeans, because the
pattern, fabric, buttons, and the time spent will make this pair of
jeans more expensive than any of the designer creations. However,
sewing children's clothes does make sense, because you need little
fabric, and you don't really need complicated patterns.

A sewing machine is a great investment for those who have a passion
for clothes design and like to wear one-of-a-kind pieces and don't
want to limit their clothing choices to what they see in department
stores. With a sewing machine and a little patience you have full
control on where the pockets go, what kind of buttons you use, and
where the hemline stops. You should be aware that creating clothes
from scratch or even amending the existing pattern requires

http://www.dontplayplay.com/html/Bothsexes/20061002/46970.html

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Sorta Off Topic - Looking For Ideas...
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/74df284a95a4127a?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 15 2008 3:34 pm
From: "Joe"

> You could auction it off at a charity event. If you do it right, you can
> make money on the event itself in addition to the auction.

Not a bad idea... We are having a beefsteak dinner as part of the event...
Maybe there.

Thank you.
--

Joe in Northern, NJ - V#8013-R

Currently Riding The "Mother Ship"
http://yunx.com/valk.htm

Ride a motorcycle in or near NJ?
http://tinyurl.com/hmzj
http://tinyurl.com/5apkg

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Friday, February 15, 2008

25 new messages in 12 topics - digest

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