Frugal Living: 01/01/2009

Saturday, January 31, 2009

misc.consumers.frugal-living - 25 new messages in 8 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

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TOPIC: Aspirin May be an Inexpensive Tonic for the Liver
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/27090c8fb854fd3a?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 30 2009 9:50 pm
From: westom1@gmail.com

On Jan 30, 5:50 pm, "Bob F" <bobnos...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Do you really expect complainers to read the science?

Death always cures such complainers. Simple science.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: feds want your medical records
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/453e01859e9f99b0?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Jan 31 2009 4:54 am
From: George

BigDog1 wrote:
> On Jan 30, 11:40 am, George <geo...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>> BigDog1 wrote:
>>> On Jan 28, 1:38 pm, clams_casino <PeterGrif...@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:
>>>> AllEmailDeletedImmediately wrote:
>>>>> http://worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=87322
>>>> I'm not sure what all the concern is about. Our family doctor has
>>>> recorded all our records on his laptop / office computer setup for at
>>>> least five years. It was quite handy when he was on vacation last year
>>>> and I needed to see a substitute doctor last year.
>>>> Along that line, I recall all sorts of problems / obviously excessive
>>>> costs when my mother had a half dozen doctors some eight years ago in
>>>> her last years with excessive medical problems. They had little idea
>>>> what each was doing and she was surely not in a position to keep them
>>>> all updated.
>>>> Electronic records are the only way to significantly reduce medical
>>>> costs. Hopefully they will reduce record keeping costs about half has
>>>> they have done in most all other industries.
>>> Correct. If electronic records do nothing more than eliminate
>>> unnecessary repetitive tests when a patient changes providers, it will
>>> save millions of dollars a year. And that's just the tip of the
>>> iceberg. To say nothing of the ability to track fraud and abuse in
>>> the system. Long overdue, given the number of years we've been in the
>>> information age.
>>> Of course, there will always be the "big brother is watching" crowd
>>> who will piss and moan; but they're either paranoid or are already
>>> gaming the system and are afraid they'll get caught. Who cares what's
>>> in somebody else's files? I don't!
>> Really? They just couldn't be folks who like the idea of personal
>> liberty and freedom (its an interesting idea and a core reason upon
>> which our country was founded) and don't care for the idea of a strong
>> government anything?
>
> Or, they could be whacked out paranoid idiots, who will construct a
> conspiracy theory for just about any program their government comes up
> with.

Your argument would be a lot more effective if it wasn't ad hominem.
Essentially you are saying "If I don't agree with someone's thinking
they must be an idiot..."

>
> If think your government can't already find out everything they want
> to about you, including your medical history, you're kidding
> yourself. The real question is, why would they care? Got something
> to hide?
>
> If I'm on the road a thousand miles from home (which I frequently am),
> and have some sort of medical crisis or am involved in an accident and
> can't cogently communicate with a care provider, I like the idea that
> they could quickly access a database that would allow them to give me
> proper treatment.

Perhaps you would want to look at getting one of those medical ID tags?

==============================================================================
TOPIC: FS: Nike Air Jordan 1 Black Basketball shoes - size 8
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/bfda1b54fce1cad2?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Jan 31 2009 6:07 am
From: ClothesOut

Buy a pair of black high-top basketball shoes from Nike. New in the
box. White laces. Great to wear for exercising, running, shooting
hoops or casual wear. Comes from a smoke-free home. Asking price is
$85 and includes FREE shipping via USPS Priority Mail.

For pictures and more details, email me.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Breathe Rite nasal strips
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/affd6583ec4f642b?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Jan 31 2009 7:58 am
From: finding z0

On Jan 29, 11:55 am, Dave <djense...@cox.net> wrote:
> On Jan 28, 7:55 pm, finding z0 <j...@excite.com> wrote:
>
> > I use them occassionally and they help me breathe and not snore. It
> > would be pricey to use them every night. I've always wondered if the
> > secret to reusing them would be to find the right glue to reapply. I
> > found these 2 products and wondered if anyone has tried them?
>
> >http://www.ameswalker.com/accessories.html?iorb=4764&utm_source=Spons...
>
> >http://www.exmed.net/dept.asp?dept_id=491
> > (first 2 products)
>
> I recently spotted the Breathe Right strips in Sam's Club, with their
> 37-count package reduced dramatically, as they are expecting a new 50-
> count box. They were blowing the old sizwe out for $3 plus change, and
> that makes them very affordable. Last I looked, they still had some.
> They are really a great product,
>
> Dave

Not in my neighborhood.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Jan 31 2009 8:01 am
From: finding z0

I was looking for an answer to my question, not a debate on whether
they work or not. I did check out Sam's club and found only the 50
pack.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Boost Mobile: May have to try it
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/349d16161b538880?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 14 ==
Date: Sat, Jan 31 2009 8:27 am
From: me@privacy.net

Gordon <gonzo@alltomyself.com> wrote:

> That's why I was
>disapointed to hear that Boost uses the iDen network.

How come?

Its not a good network?

== 2 of 14 ==
Date: Sat, Jan 31 2009 9:52 am
From: SMS

me@privacy.net wrote:
> http://clarkhoward.com/liveweb/shownotes/2009/01/15/14921
>
> what you think?
>
> I'm looking for new cell carrier in
> 63401 area

You'll get the same abysmal coverage that Nextel subscribers enjoy.

== 3 of 14 ==
Date: Sat, Jan 31 2009 9:59 am
From: SMS

Mr Bungle 34 wrote:
> A boost prepaid is my only phone. I ararely need to use a phone. At
> anyrate, I spend less than 10 bucks a month on it...

Boost is the perfect phone when you rarely need to use a phone because
you'll rarely be able to use it!

The best deal in prepaid, by far, is PagePlus which uses the Verizon
network. As little as $10 every four months (a bit less since the
refills are often discounted a few percent). As little as 5.3 cents per
minute. But it's not just the low cost, it's that you get excellent
coverage. With any prepaid provider on the iDEN or Sprint networks
you'll get poor coverage outside of urban areas. Regular Sprint phones
can roam onto other CDMA networks in areas with no Sprint coverage, but
Virgin, which is on the Sprint network, can't roam. With Boost, there is
nowhere to roam onto, as Nextel has about the only iDEN network in the
U.S. (there are a couple of other very small iDEN networks, but none of
any size).

See "http://prepaiduswireless.com"

The prepaid providers to avoid are:

Boost
Tracfone
Virgin
Net10
Jitterbug
InPulse (Verizon)
GoPhone (AT&T)

== 4 of 14 ==
Date: Sat, Jan 31 2009 10:01 am
From: SMS

me@privacy.net wrote:
> Mr Bungle 34
> <michael_grove34@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> A boost prepaid is my only phone. I ararely need to use a phone. At
>> anyrate, I spend less than 10 bucks a month on it...
>
> Ok but what abt this new unlimited plan
> in original post?

It's unlimited, but don't ever plan to use the phone outside the core of
very urban areas. Not even on the fringes of very urban areas.

See "http://prepaiduswireless.com/".

== 5 of 14 ==
Date: Sat, Jan 31 2009 10:03 am
From: SMS

Gordon wrote:
> George <george@nospam.invalid> wrote in
> news:glvf4u$b2l$1@news.motzarella.org:
>
>> me@privacy.net wrote:
>>> Brian Elfert <belfert@visi.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Boost has a new $50 unlimited plan, but the review I saw said it is
>>>> awful and the reviewer's wife went back to another phone before the
>>>> 30 day review period was up. The main complaint was dropped calls.
>>> have a link to this review?
>> Just ask someone in your area who happens to be stuck on Sprints
>> crappy iDEN network which they tried to sell and no one wanted and you
>> will know what boost is about.
>
> Sprint actually has two networks, Their CDMA network that they deployed,
> and the iDen network that they acquired from Nextel. That's why I was
> disapointed to hear that Boost uses the iDen network. I have a Sprint
> CDMA Phone.

Well if Sprint offered $50 unlimited voice and data on their CDMA
network they'd have more customers than they could handle, rather than
hemorrhaging customers like they are now. If Sprint wants to reverse
their downward spiral, they could think about something similar. Maybe
limit data during peak times to avoid overwhelming their 3G network, and
keep higher ARPU customers from changing to the lower cost plan. More
likely that they'll just shut down completely and sell off their spectrum.

== 6 of 14 ==
Date: Sat, Jan 31 2009 10:08 am
From: SMS

me@privacy.net wrote:
> Gordon <gonzo@alltomyself.com> wrote:
>
>> That's why I was
>> disapointed to hear that Boost uses the iDen network.
>
> How come?
>
> Its not a good network?

Look at the January Consumer Reports for the results for Nextel in each
market. That's the coverage you'll get. But it's misleading, because
coverage in urban areas is _all_ you'll get. No roaming in rural areas
(nothing to roam onto).

A publication in my area (SF Bay area) did their own survey of coverage
and quality. Nextel wa always second to last, just ahead of MetroPCS,
except they beat two other carriers in sound quality.

The unlimited data is what's attractive about that offer. $50 would buy
you 934 voice minutes a month on PagePlus.

== 7 of 14 ==
Date: Sat, Jan 31 2009 5:03 pm
From: me@privacy.net

SMS <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:

>See "http://prepaiduswireless.com/".

Wow!

Excellent web page above! Is it yours?

Question..... what abt buying a wifi enabled cell phone
and somehow using Skype for calls when in wifi hotspot
to save on the prepaid minutes usage?

That doable?

== 8 of 14 ==
Date: Sat, Jan 31 2009 5:08 pm
From: me@privacy.net

SMS <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:

>
>The prepaid providers to avoid are:
>
>Boost
>Tracfone
>Virgin
>Net10
>Jitterbug
>InPulse (Verizon)
>GoPhone (AT&T)

OK thanks

I currently have T Mobile to go sim pack being used in
older GSM phone from another carrier that I dropped.
The phone is an unlocked Nokia 6010

I'm thinking of buying the Nokia E51 which is an
unlocked smart phone that has symbian and wifi built in

Have a Skype account but only setup for skype to skype
use right now. If I buy Skype credit to use so as to
call other people when my E51 is an a hotspot.... will
THAT strategy help keep my minutes usage down?

Also, T Mobile doesn't have the best of coverage
here..... works in town but poor outside of 63401.

I know you said Page Plus is best for rural areas but
I'm already into T Mobile for 30 bucks so may go ahead
and buy the $100 refill card.... if using wifi can help
keep costs down

== 9 of 14 ==
Date: Sat, Jan 31 2009 5:49 pm
From: SMS

me@privacy.net wrote:

> I'm thinking of buying the Nokia E51 which is an
> unlocked smart phone that has symbian and wifi built in

I know some wi-fi enabled phones can't run the Skype software, so be
careful with what you buy. Not sure about the E51. See
"http://forum.skype.com/index.php?showtopic=148391".

== 10 of 14 ==
Date: Sat, Jan 31 2009 6:01 pm
From: me@privacy.net

SMS <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:

>> I'm thinking of buying the Nokia E51 which is an
>> unlocked smart phone that has symbian and wifi built in
>
>I know some wi-fi enabled phones can't run the Skype software, so be
>careful with what you buy. Not sure about the E51. See
>"http://forum.skype.com/index.php?showtopic=148391".

I'm sorry.... I didn't mean to use Skype on the phone
itself

What I should have said was to use this:

http://www.fring.com/

== 11 of 14 ==
Date: Sat, Jan 31 2009 6:32 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

me@privacy.net wrote:
> SMS <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote

>> See "http://prepaiduswireless.com/".

> Wow!

> Excellent web page above! Is it yours?

> Question..... what abt buying a wifi enabled cell phone
> and somehow using Skype for calls when in wifi hotspot
> to save on the prepaid minutes usage?

Or use voip over wifi instead.

> That doable?

Yes, thats what I do myself.

== 12 of 14 ==
Date: Sat, Jan 31 2009 6:35 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

me@privacy.net wrote:
> SMS <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:

>>> I'm thinking of buying the Nokia E51 which is an
>>> unlocked smart phone that has symbian and wifi built in

>> I know some wi-fi enabled phones can't run the Skype software,
>> so be careful with what you buy. Not sure about the E51. See
>> "http://forum.skype.com/index.php?showtopic=148391".

> I'm sorry.... I didn't mean to use Skype on the phone itself

> What I should have said was to use this:

> http://www.fring.com/

Yes, it works fine.

I use the builtin voip on a Nokia N95 8GB.

== 13 of 14 ==
Date: Sat, Jan 31 2009 7:13 pm
From: Mr Bungle 34

On Jan 31, 12:59 pm, SMS <scharf.ste...@geemail.com> wrote:
> Mr Bungle 34 wrote:
> > A boost prepaid is my only phone. I ararely need to use a phone. At
> > anyrate, I spend less than 10 bucks a month on it...
>
> Boost is the perfect phone when you rarely need to use a phone because
> you'll rarely be able to use it!
>
> The best deal in prepaid, by far, is PagePlus which uses the Verizon
> network. As little as $10 every four months (a bit less since the
> refills are often discounted a few percent). As little as 5.3 cents per
> minute. But it's not just the low cost, it's that you get excellent
> coverage. With any prepaid provider on the iDEN or Sprint networks
> you'll get poor coverage outside of urban areas. Regular Sprint phones
> can roam onto other CDMA networks in areas with no Sprint coverage, but
> Virgin, which is on the Sprint network, can't roam. With Boost, there is
> nowhere to roam onto, as Nextel has about the only iDEN network in the
> U.S. (there are a couple of other very small iDEN networks, but none of
> any size).
>
> See "http://prepaiduswireless.com"
>
> The prepaid providers to avoid are:
>
> Boost
> Tracfone
> Virgin
> Net10
> Jitterbug
> InPulse (Verizon)
> GoPhone (AT&T)

I have almost no trouble with my phone but I do live in a metro area
(Raleigh, NC). If I ever switch up I'll be following your
advice...thanks...

== 14 of 14 ==
Date: Sat, Jan 31 2009 8:07 pm
From: Mark Anderson

On Sat, 31 Jan 2009 09:59:14 -0800, SMS wrote:

> The best deal in prepaid, by far, is PagePlus which uses the Verizon
> network. As little as $10 every four months (a bit less since the
> refills are often discounted a few percent). As little as 5.3 cents per
> minute. But it's not just the low cost, it's that you get excellent
> coverage. With any prepaid provider on the iDEN or Sprint networks
> you'll get poor coverage outside of urban areas. Regular Sprint phones
> can roam onto other CDMA networks in areas with no Sprint coverage, but
> Virgin, which is on the Sprint network, can't roam. With Boost, there is
> nowhere to roam onto, as Nextel has about the only iDEN network in the
> U.S. (there are a couple of other very small iDEN networks, but none of
> any size).
>
> See "http://prepaiduswireless.com"
>
> The prepaid providers to avoid are:
>
> Boost
> Tracfone
> Virgin
> Net10
> Jitterbug
> InPulse (Verizon)
> GoPhone (AT&T)

Thank you so much for this info. I've been looking into prepaid phones
and they all seem like a ripoff (greater than 20 cents/minute plus setup
charges). This site laid everything out pretty clearly and I've decided
to try PagePlus.

Now I just need to find a phone.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: STIMULUS AIDS ILLEGALS ALIENS
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/a3b3b6cea14ee4d2?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Sat, Jan 31 2009 11:46 am
From: Keith

On Jan 30, 4:47 am, "John A. Weeks III" <j...@johnweeks.com> wrote:
> In article
> <13136e26-f770-4ae1-bbb2-5fa55616d...@k19g2000yqg.googlegroups.com>,
>
> hp...@lycos.com wrote:
> > Vote-grubbing congressional scumbags pander to their beloved illegal
> > aliens.
>
> How is that pandering? The illegals cannot get tax refunds now, so
> they are over-paying into the system. This simply lets them get
> their money back. There are valid places to catch and return
> illegals, but stealing their money should not be one of those
> methods.
>
> -john-
>
> --
> ======================================================================
> John A. Weeks III 612-720-2854 j...@johnweeks.com
> Newave Communications http://www.johnweeks.com
> ======================================================================

Let it be known right now that they are not overpaying into the
system. For every dollar they pay in taxes, they get more than a
dollar in services. The millions of uneducated, unskilled peasants
get free health care as well as their millions of children who also
get free education. Don't give me that crap...

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Sat, Jan 31 2009 1:17 pm
From: SMS

Keith wrote:

> Let it be known right now that they are not overpaying into the
> system. For every dollar they pay in taxes, they get more than a
> dollar in services. The millions of uneducated, unskilled peasants
> get free health care as well as their millions of children who also
> get free education. Don't give me that crap...

This is often the case. The problem is that the federal government gets
the tax money, but the states provide the education and health care.
It's a boondoggle that benefits the federal government, while states
struggle under the burden.

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Sat, Jan 31 2009 5:13 pm
From: "h"

"SMS" <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote in message
news:yc3hl.19322$Ws1.10934@nlpi064.nbdc.sbc.com...
> Keith wrote:
>
>> Let it be known right now that they are not overpaying into the
>> system. For every dollar they pay in taxes, they get more than a
>> dollar in services. The millions of uneducated, unskilled peasants
>> get free health care as well as their millions of children who also
>> get free education. Don't give me that crap...
>
> This is often the case. The problem is that the federal government gets
> the tax money, but the states provide the education and health care. It's
> a boondoggle that benefits the federal government, while states struggle
> under the burden.

Ok, maybe I don't get it. How does any uninsured person get free health
care? I've been self-employed for 15 years and finally had to drop my health
insurance when the premium hit $4,000 with a $2,500 deductible every year.
On a gross income of less than $25,000 (about 60% less than I made under
Clinton, thanks, Bush) I simply couldn't afford it. Hell, even in a great
economy I only go to the doctor when I'm bleeding, so $2,500 is more than
twice what I've ever spent on health care in one year.

My point is, if I go to the hospital or a doctor, I get a bill that I have
to pay. It's not like the gubmint's going to pick up the tab. How am I any
different from any other uninsured person? Ok, so maybe they don't pay and
since they don't own anything they can skate on it, but I still don't see
how the taxpayer is picking it up. What am I missing?

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Sat, Jan 31 2009 5:45 pm
From: SMS

h wrote:
> "SMS" <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote in message
> news:yc3hl.19322$Ws1.10934@nlpi064.nbdc.sbc.com...
>> Keith wrote:
>>
>>> Let it be known right now that they are not overpaying into the
>>> system. For every dollar they pay in taxes, they get more than a
>>> dollar in services. The millions of uneducated, unskilled peasants
>>> get free health care as well as their millions of children who also
>>> get free education. Don't give me that crap...
>> This is often the case. The problem is that the federal government gets
>> the tax money, but the states provide the education and health care. It's
>> a boondoggle that benefits the federal government, while states struggle
>> under the burden.
>
> Ok, maybe I don't get it. How does any uninsured person get free health
> care?

In California kids go on Medical. Everyone else simply goes to the
emergency room. You have assets that the hospital can go after to get
paid. An illegal typically has nothing, yet the hospital must provide care.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Nazi t-shirt sold at Walmart
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/b367e5bdf9d178bd?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Jan 31 2009 6:49 pm
From: The Real Bev

Jon von Leipzig@myday.com wrote:

> On Dec 14 2008, 11:11 am, ultim...@gmail.com wrote:
>> http://consumerist.com/348776/walmart-nazi-tshirt-watch-week-62
>>
>> Just when you thought all of the Walmart tshirts bearing the exact
>> replica of an infamous Nazi symbol were recalled, or sold to a
>> discount store and burned, a Walmart in Palmdale, California has them
>> on sale for $3.00 a pop. 62 weeks after Walmart pledged to remove the
>> shirts from its shelves, and 50 weeks after getting a letter from
>> Congress demanding the shirts removal, they're still out there.
>
> I've never heard of this b4. Thanks for the frugal tip. $3 for a t-
> shirt is good. Wasn't aware this deaths head w/bones was a nazi
> symbol. I'd guess 0 per cent of Walmart shoppers would connect this
> symbol with the nazis.

My first thought was pirates (sacred to the Flying Spaghetti Monster), or the
t-shirt that one of the Simpsons hoodlums wears.

Actually, there is a Nazi skull+crossbones symbol
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_symbols> but it's a 3/4 view.

> Wish they had one with the swastika or those kewl SS lightning bolts.

Shouldn't be difficult to make with black duct tape!

--
Cheers,
Bev
==================================================
Is the Pope Catholic? Do bears shit in the woods?
Does Rose Kennedy have a black dress?

==============================================================================
TOPIC: wholesale cheap nfl jerseys nhl jerseys nba and mlb discounty jerseys
www.jerseysnews.com
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/b3bd8f7a98025811?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Jan 31 2009 7:39 pm
From: "www.jerseysnews.com"

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==============================================================================

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Google Groups: http://groups.google.com/?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living - 7 new messages in 5 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

* STIMULUS AIDS ILLEGALS ALIENS - 2 messages, 2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/a3b3b6cea14ee4d2?hl=en
* Annie's Mailbox: How NOT to teach kids to save money - 2 messages, 2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/5152ca4cf0fae9b1?hl=en
* Boost Mobile: May have to try it - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/349d16161b538880?hl=en
* Non-Dairy Creamer - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/45428b9e1af54564?hl=en
* Aspirin May be an Inexpensive Tonic for the Liver - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/27090c8fb854fd3a?hl=en

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 30 2009 5:35 pm
From: SMS

bat wrote:
>> The illegals cannot get tax refunds now, so
>> they are over-paying into the system.
>
> They are paying tax without having SSN?

Yes. They have fictitious SSNs. The money goes in, but it never is
refunded. We're talking about illegals that have jobs in places
(factories, farms, hotels, etc.) where the employer takes money out of
their pay for taxes. The employer could easily verify that the SSNs are
invalid, but they don't want to.

What's extremely unfair about this is not that the taxes get taken out,
but that the federal government keeps all the money, while the state
governments have the mandate to provide education, health care, etc..
The states have no power to crack down on illegal immigration, that's
the feds job, yet the states bear all the costs.

In 2002, Social Security collected $56 billion from SSNs that didn't
belong to anyone.

There's an article you can read at
"http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/business/05immigration.html".

There's a big incentive for the feds to not crack down on illegal
immigration. Besides the fact that a lot of well-connected companies
depend on illegals for cheap labor, the government is collecting a lot
of money from illegals.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 30 2009 5:57 pm
From: "bat"

S> Yes. They have fictitious SSNs. The money goes in, but it never is
S> refunded. We're talking about illegals that have jobs in places
S> (factories, farms, hotels, etc.) where the employer takes money out of
S> their pay for taxes. The employer could easily verify that the SSNs are
S> invalid, but they don't want to.

I see. Thanks for clarification.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Annie's Mailbox: How NOT to teach kids to save money
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/5152ca4cf0fae9b1?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 30 2009 7:35 pm
From: im.1.maxaluminum@xoxy.net

lenona...@yahoo.com wrote:
> http://www.creators.com/lifestylefeatures/annies-mailbox/annie-s-mailbox-r-2009-01-28.html
>
> Dear Annie: I recently noticed that my grandson spends his allowance
> and gift money as soon as he gets it. In fact, he is almost frantic to
> spend it. I wondered why, and then found out that instead of timeouts
> or having privileges rescinded, he is disciplined by having his money
> taken away. That explains why he wants to exchange it for tangible
> goods as quickly as possible.
>
> I am concerned that this method of discipline is setting him up for
> financial failure later in life. He is only 8 years old, but early
> experiences with money can be very significant.
>
> My input would be seen as unwelcome interference.
> Is there anything I can do to help my grandchild learn money
> management skills in this type of environment? Are there more
> effective forms of discipline? — Observant Granny
>
> Dear Granny: Most discipline involves taking away something the child
> values, such as toys, television time or interacting with friends and
> family members. In your grandson's case, it's money. Essentially, he
> is being fined for bad behavior. That would be OK if it's a specific
> amount. However, if a large or arbitrary amount is taken when he
> misbehaves, it teaches him to spend immediately and not save anything,
> both of which are terrible habits to learn.
>
> Offer to set up a savings account for your grandson, in his name and
> yours, where he can put aside some of the gift money you (and others)
> give him. Let him see the balance grow, and encourage him to save up
> for something specific. That might help.
>
> (end)
>
> Regarding what the parents are doing, it seems to me that even if it
> ISN'T a large or arbitrary amount, the effect would likely be the
> same!
>
> Lenona.

Sounds like the kid has a financial future. He has learned that money
is not worth as much tomorrow so he's investing in commodities. That's
a real world lesson. Now if granny comes along and bails him out,
that's a very current real world lesson.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 30 2009 7:37 pm
From: josejarvie@ssnet.net

Do they take the kid's money away after they have given it to him or before they
give it to him?

On Fri, 30 Jan 2009 19:35:06 -0800 (PST), in misc.consumers.frugal-living
im.1.maxaluminum@xoxy.net wrote:

>
>
>lenona...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> http://www.creators.com/lifestylefeatures/annies-mailbox/annie-s-mailbox-r-2009-01-28.html
>>
>> Dear Annie: I recently noticed that my grandson spends his allowance
>> and gift money as soon as he gets it. In fact, he is almost frantic to
>> spend it. I wondered why, and then found out that instead of timeouts
>> or having privileges rescinded, he is disciplined by having his money
>> taken away. That explains why he wants to exchange it for tangible
>> goods as quickly as possible.
>>
>> I am concerned that this method of discipline is setting him up for
>> financial failure later in life. He is only 8 years old, but early
>> experiences with money can be very significant.
>>
>> My input would be seen as unwelcome interference.
>> Is there anything I can do to help my grandchild learn money
>> management skills in this type of environment? Are there more
>> effective forms of discipline? — Observant Granny
>>
>> Dear Granny: Most discipline involves taking away something the child
>> values, such as toys, television time or interacting with friends and
>> family members. In your grandson's case, it's money. Essentially, he
>> is being fined for bad behavior. That would be OK if it's a specific
>> amount. However, if a large or arbitrary amount is taken when he
>> misbehaves, it teaches him to spend immediately and not save anything,
>> both of which are terrible habits to learn.
>>
>> Offer to set up a savings account for your grandson, in his name and
>> yours, where he can put aside some of the gift money you (and others)
>> give him. Let him see the balance grow, and encourage him to save up
>> for something specific. That might help.
>>
>> (end)
>>
>> Regarding what the parents are doing, it seems to me that even if it
>> ISN'T a large or arbitrary amount, the effect would likely be the
>> same!
>>
>> Lenona.
>
>Sounds like the kid has a financial future. He has learned that money
>is not worth as much tomorrow so he's investing in commodities. That's
>a real world lesson. Now if granny comes along and bails him out,
>that's a very current real world lesson.

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 30 2009 7:39 pm
From: Gordon

George <george@nospam.invalid> wrote in
news:glvf4u$b2l$1@news.motzarella.org:

> me@privacy.net wrote:
>> Brian Elfert <belfert@visi.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Boost has a new $50 unlimited plan, but the review I saw said it is
>>> awful and the reviewer's wife went back to another phone before the
>>> 30 day review period was up. The main complaint was dropped calls.
>>
>> have a link to this review?
>
> Just ask someone in your area who happens to be stuck on Sprints
> crappy iDEN network which they tried to sell and no one wanted and you
> will know what boost is about.

Sprint actually has two networks, Their CDMA network that they deployed,
and the iDen network that they acquired from Nextel. That's why I was
disapointed to hear that Boost uses the iDen network. I have a Sprint
CDMA Phone.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Non-Dairy Creamer
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/45428b9e1af54564?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 30 2009 9:34 pm
From: SMS

Vic Smith wrote:
> This is only for those who use it.
> Don't want to argue about half & half or black or how to make coffee.
> For those who use a lot of liquid Coffee-Mate or one of its
> equivalents, it can get expensive.
> Around here it's over 3 bucks a quart.

Wow, more than 2x the cost of 1/2 & 1/2 for Glucose Syrup and
Hydrogenated vegetable fat.

> If you like the creamer at your company cafeteria you might ask the
> manager to order a case of the powder used to make it.
> Or find some way to get it. Just don't break the law.
> Your creamer cost goes down to about 50 cents a quart.
> For us that's about $10 a week savings.

You're better off buying Nestle Nido at the Mexican or Asian
supermarket, then adding your own sugar.

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 30 2009 9:50 pm
From: westom1@gmail.com

On Jan 30, 5:50 pm, "Bob F" <bobnos...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Do you really expect complainers to read the science?

Death always cures such complainers. Simple science.

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Friday, January 30, 2009

misc.consumers.frugal-living - 25 new messages in 10 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: "Expect Massive Layoffs In 2009", say top economists. Let's see if
Obama pushes amnesty for ILLEGAL ALIENS in spite of this.
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/fef115bd17c9d06a?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Jan 29 2009 10:08 pm
From: "Long Ranger"

"." <RhiannonX@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:7ac23ebb-0517-4b80-aa62-5cf52ac7560d@t26g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 29, 9:07 pm, "Long Ranger" <worpylorpk...@comcast.net> wrote:

> So, you don't buy the theory that we started paying our own people, and
> especially blacks, to stay home and live on welfare? Take a look at the
> rise
> of the welfare state, and you will notice that Mexican immigration follows
> right on it's heels, especially from the 1950s onward. Liberal social
> policy
> debased our native work force, and the only place to get cheap labor was
> Mexico. Or am I missing something?

Yes, you're missing the larger history of Mexican illegal immigration.

Mexicans living on Spanish/Mexican land grants in the ceded
territories after the War with Mexico were poor managers. They were
illiterate and proud of that fact, because it proved that they were
*Old Christians*, not Jew or Muslims who had converted to Roman
Catholicism in the mid-16th century.

The Mexicans failed to register their land grant paperwork with the
territorial governments and the cow hide and tallow market also
collapsed, so they had no way of paying their taxes to the state
governments.

The Mexicans who didn't give up and return to Mexico gradually died
off in the next half century after the War with Mexico.

In the interim, California growers brought in Chinese and Japanese
peasants to
farm their land, but this was undesireable to White agricultural
workers who thought that California was going to be overrun with
Asians.

The cheap Mexican farm labor began flooding into the southwestern USA
about 1915, during the power struggle between Mexican political
leaders after the last revolution, the one that brought the
Institutional Revolutionary Party (PRI) to power.

There was also an infuenza epidemic and famine in Mexico. I know an 80
year old Mexican man whose parents *walked* from Sonora to central
California in the early part of the 20th century to get jobs picking
fruit.

He picked fruit with them until the Great Depression, when Mexicans
were repatriated (with the consent of the Mexican consulates under the
aegis of an organization called the Comision Honorifica) in order to
open up jobs for Americans.

He and his family were among those who stayed in California by moving
to the barrios of East Los Angeles and working as laborers.

During WW2, there were 16 million Americans in uniform, so America
started the Bracero program to bring in contract temporary farm
laborers. But some of the Mexicans didn't want to live on the farms as
they were contracted to do, they snuck away to the towns and found
humble jobs as they could.

The Mexicans complained, "We're good enough to work in your fields,
but not good enough to live in your towns."

Gradually the Mexican population built up and the ex-GI's who had
worked on farms before WW2 didn't go back to their old jobs, they took
factory jobs and lived in the larger towns.

== 1 of 7 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 30 2009 3:34 am
From: hpope@lycos.com

On Jan 29, 3:38 pm, AnAmericanCitizen <NoAmne...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Hill Republican: Stimulus aids illegal immigrants
>
> Jan 29 12:02 PM US/Eastern
>
> By JULIE HIRSCHFELD DAVIS
> Associated Press Writer
>
> House OKs $819 Billion Stimulus Bill Without One GOP Vote
>
> Pelosi Stammers Through Defense Of $335 Million For STD Education In Stimulus Bill
>
> Proposal: 'Obama-Limbaugh Bipartisan Stimulus Plan of 2009'
>
> WASHINGTON (AP) - The $800 billion-plus economic stimulus measure making its way
> through Congress could steer government checks to illegal immigrants, a top
> Republican congressional official asserted Thursday.
>
> The legislation, which would send tax credits of $500 per worker and $1,000 per
> couple, expressly disqualifies nonresident aliens, but it would allow people who
> don't have Social Security numbers to be eligible for the checks.
>
> Undocumented immigrants who are not eligible for a Social Security number can file
> tax returns with an alternative number. A House-passed version of the economic
> recovery bill and one making its way through the Senate would allow anyone with such
> a number, called an individual taxpayer identification number, to qualify for the tax
> credits.
>
> A revolt among GOP conservatives to similar provisions of a 2008 economic stimulus
> bill, which sent rebate checks to most wage earners, forced Democratic congressional
> leaders to add stricter eligibility requirements. That legislation, enacted in
> February 2008, required that people have valid Social Security numbers in order to
> get checks.
>
> The GOP official voiced concerns about the latest economic aid measure on condition
> of anonymity because he was not authorized to discuss it publicly.
>
> Republicans have already blasted the package for including what they argue is
> wasteful spending and omitting tax cuts for wealthier people and businesses they say
> are needed to jump-start the anemic economy.
>
> Not a single Republican voted for an $819 billion version of the plan when it passed
> the House on Wednesday.
>
> GOP senators arranged a midday news conference to voice their concerns.

Vote-grubbing congressional scumbags pander to their beloved illegal
aliens.

mitch

http://www.wvwnews.net/ Western Voices World News

== 2 of 7 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 30 2009 4:47 am
From: "John A. Weeks III"

In article
<13136e26-f770-4ae1-bbb2-5fa55616d680@k19g2000yqg.googlegroups.com>,
hpope@lycos.com wrote:

> Vote-grubbing congressional scumbags pander to their beloved illegal
> aliens.

How is that pandering? The illegals cannot get tax refunds now, so
they are over-paying into the system. This simply lets them get
their money back. There are valid places to catch and return
illegals, but stealing their money should not be one of those
methods.

-john-

--
======================================================================
John A. Weeks III 612-720-2854 john@johnweeks.com
Newave Communications http://www.johnweeks.com
======================================================================

== 3 of 7 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 30 2009 5:18 am
From: "Scout"

"John A. Weeks III" <john@johnweeks.com> wrote in message
news:john-72F26C.06472230012009@news-3.octanews.net...
> In article
> <13136e26-f770-4ae1-bbb2-5fa55616d680@k19g2000yqg.googlegroups.com>,
> hpope@lycos.com wrote:
>
>> Vote-grubbing congressional scumbags pander to their beloved illegal
>> aliens.
>
> How is that pandering? The illegals cannot get tax refunds now, so
> they are over-paying into the system. This simply lets them get
> their money back. There are valid places to catch and return
> illegals, but stealing their money should not be one of those
> methods.

Why not?

It is the proceeds of crime, and thus subject to forfeiture like any other
proceeds of crime....

If anything we should be taking MORE of their money.

== 4 of 7 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 30 2009 8:37 am
From: James

"Scout" <me4guns@verizon.removeme.this2.nospam.net> wrote in
news:z6Dgl.877$N5.291@nwrddc01.gnilink.net:

>
> "John A. Weeks III" <john@johnweeks.com> wrote in message
> news:john-72F26C.06472230012009@news-3.octanews.net...
>> In article
>> <13136e26-f770-4ae1-bbb2-5fa55616d680@k19g2000yqg.googlegroups.com>,
>> hpope@lycos.com wrote:
>>
>>> Vote-grubbing congressional scumbags pander to their beloved illegal
>>> aliens.
>>
>> How is that pandering? The illegals cannot get tax refunds now, so
>> they are over-paying into the system. This simply lets them get
>> their money back. There are valid places to catch and return
>> illegals, but stealing their money should not be one of those
>> methods.
>
> Why not?
>
> It is the proceeds of crime, and thus subject to forfeiture like any
> other proceeds of crime....
>
> If anything we should be taking MORE of their money.
>

Exactly right. If we can punish the masses with unfair taxes
for smoking cigarettes and, rightfully, discourage drunk driving
with the enormous human and financial costs associated with this
activity, there's no reason not to attack illegal immigration
with the same harsh methods. But, oops, there's that word again,
'racism'. Oh my ....

== 5 of 7 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 30 2009 8:46 am
From: "bat"

> The illegals cannot get tax refunds now, so
> they are over-paying into the system.

They are paying tax without having SSN?

The way I read the article is: most likely, those illegals who were not
filing any tax returns up to date because they did not have SSN, and who
consequently did not pay taxes, now will file them with alternative tax id
in order to receive the stimulus credit.

== 6 of 7 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 30 2009 11:28 am
From: Tony

Why it was these same low life bastards that caused the predicament America is in now. I
declare it open season for peeing in public on illegal aliens.

hpope@lycos.com wrote:

> On Jan 29, 3:38 pm, AnAmericanCitizen <NoAmne...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > Hill Republican: Stimulus aids illegal immigrants
> >
> > Jan 29 12:02 PM US/Eastern
> >
> > By JULIE HIRSCHFELD DAVIS
> > Associated Press Writer
> >
> > House OKs $819 Billion Stimulus Bill Without One GOP Vote
> >
> > Pelosi Stammers Through Defense Of $335 Million For STD Education In Stimulus Bill
> >
> > Proposal: 'Obama-Limbaugh Bipartisan Stimulus Plan of 2009'
> >
> > WASHINGTON (AP) - The $800 billion-plus economic stimulus measure making its way
> > through Congress could steer government checks to illegal immigrants, a top
> > Republican congressional official asserted Thursday.
> >
> > The legislation, which would send tax credits of $500 per worker and $1,000 per
> > couple, expressly disqualifies nonresident aliens, but it would allow people who
> > don't have Social Security numbers to be eligible for the checks.
> >
> > Undocumented immigrants who are not eligible for a Social Security number can file
> > tax returns with an alternative number. A House-passed version of the economic
> > recovery bill and one making its way through the Senate would allow anyone with such
> > a number, called an individual taxpayer identification number, to qualify for the tax
> > credits.
> >
> > A revolt among GOP conservatives to similar provisions of a 2008 economic stimulus
> > bill, which sent rebate checks to most wage earners, forced Democratic congressional
> > leaders to add stricter eligibility requirements. That legislation, enacted in
> > February 2008, required that people have valid Social Security numbers in order to
> > get checks.
> >
> > The GOP official voiced concerns about the latest economic aid measure on condition
> > of anonymity because he was not authorized to discuss it publicly.
> >
> > Republicans have already blasted the package for including what they argue is
> > wasteful spending and omitting tax cuts for wealthier people and businesses they say
> > are needed to jump-start the anemic economy.
> >
> > Not a single Republican voted for an $819 billion version of the plan when it passed
> > the House on Wednesday.
> >
> > GOP senators arranged a midday news conference to voice their concerns.
>
> Vote-grubbing congressional scumbags pander to their beloved illegal
> aliens.
>
> mitch
>
> http://www.wvwnews.net/ Western Voices World News

--
The Grandmaster of the CyberFROG

Come get your ticket to CyberFROG city

Nay, Art thou decideth playeth ye simpleton games. *Some* of us know proper manners

Very few. I used to take calls from *rank* noobs,

Hamster isn't a newsreader it's a mistake!

El-Gonzo Jackson FROGS both me and Chuckcar

Master Juba was a black man imitating a white man imitating a black man

Using my technical prowess and computer abilities to answer questions beyond the realm of
understandability

Regards Tony... Making usenet better for everyone everyday

== 7 of 7 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 30 2009 5:35 pm
From: SMS

bat wrote:
>> The illegals cannot get tax refunds now, so
>> they are over-paying into the system.
>
> They are paying tax without having SSN?

In 2002, Social Security collected $56 billion from SSNs that didn't
belong to anyone.

There's an article you can read at
"http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/business/05immigration.html".

==============================================================================
TOPIC: The IRS, viabilty and the perfection of no resistance
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/bec600159a8cbc04?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 30 2009 5:02 am
From: phil scott

There is no lasting economic or other viability without a moral/
ethical base...

debunkable as merely a respect for Life generally, and humanity,
including oneself (not to be mistaken for blind arrogance, thats
fatal)...

A prerequisite to morality and ethics however is intelligence,
Intelligence only occurs with abject honesty.

Stepping though that in reverse, beginning with abject honesty, you
can bail yourself out of a degraded condition.... pay your karmic and
other debts and be graciously viable... (takes decades in my
experience) ....Yer girl friend catching fish for you off the poop
deck as you panay them in the galley...

with a few hundred yards between you and the vicious morons working
for the IRS... who are now forced to give up globally .... btw....
their ruthlessness had indeed produced their desired result, no
resistance,,, in fact the perfection of no resistance, death,

smart those folk.

no money honey, and their attempts to collect from the collapsing
economy merely destroying the last viable vestigages of their own
interests, their own personal sit on their ass 'job' ..... and their
own sit on their ass retirements....total wastes to the end.

. pooooof.

we had been discussing this eventuality for a while you know.

Phil scott

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 30 2009 10:10 am
From: Cindy Hamilton

On Jan 30, 8:02 am, phil scott <p...@philscott.net> wrote:
> There is no lasting economic or other viability without a moral/
> ethical base...
>
> debunkable as merely a respect for Life generally, and humanity,
> including oneself (not to be mistaken for blind arrogance, thats
> fatal)...
>
> A prerequisite to morality and ethics however is intelligence,
> Intelligence only occurs with abject honesty.
>
> Stepping though that in reverse, beginning with abject honesty, you
> can bail yourself out of a degraded condition.... pay your karmic and
> other debts and be graciously viable... (takes decades in my
> experience) ....Yer girl friend catching fish for you off the poop
> deck as you panay them in the galley...
>
> with a few hundred yards between you and the vicious morons working
> for the IRS... who are now forced to give up globally .... btw....
> their ruthlessness had indeed produced their desired result, no
> resistance,,, in fact the perfection of no resistance, death,
>
> smart those folk.
>
> no money honey, and their attempts to collect from the collapsing
> economy merely destroying the last viable vestigages of their own
> interests, their own personal sit on their ass 'job' ..... and their
> own sit on their ass retirements....total wastes to the end.
>
> . pooooof.
>
> we had been discussing this eventuality for a while you know.
>
> Phil scott

Dude, don't post while you're high.

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 30 2009 5:04 am
From: Vic Smith

This is only for those who use it.
Don't want to argue about half & half or black or how to make coffee.
For those who use a lot of liquid Coffee-Mate or one of its
equivalents, it can get expensive.
Around here it's over 3 bucks a quart.
If you like the creamer at your company cafeteria you might ask the
manager to order a case of the powder used to make it.
Or find some way to get it. Just don't break the law.
Your creamer cost goes down to about 50 cents a quart.
For us that's about $10 a week savings.
$520 a year.
Long live Frugality!

--Vic

== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 30 2009 8:58 am
From: "AllEmailDeletedImmediately"

<NoSpamForMe@LousyISP.gov> wrote in message
news:so52o4pie0kb7h6i4m6fn34317gjkiolfr@4ax.com...
> BigDog1 <bigdog811@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Jan 28, 1:38 pm, clams_casino <PeterGrif...@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:
>>> AllEmailDeletedImmediately wrote:
>>> >http://worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=87322
>
>>> Electronic records are the only way to significantly reduce medical
>>> costs.
>
> The only way? I don't think so. The savings in medical costs are
> likely to be trivial. Try reducing end-of-life (especially surgical)
> interventions to save the really big bucks.
>
>> Hopefully they will reduce record keeping costs about half has
>>> they have done in most all other industries.
>
> And just where do you get the "about half" from? And what are "most
> all" other industries? I'd contend that some industries like insurance
> and mail order couldn't even function without computerized record
> keeping. Others like your local pizza stand have little need.
>
> The real advantage to electronic record keeping is the ease and
> accuracy of the process especially in a hospital environment.
>
>>Correct. If electronic records do nothing more than eliminate
>>unnecessary repetitive tests when a patient changes providers, it will
>>save millions of dollars a year.
>
> Aw, bullshit! I'm trying to work out exactly what axe you have to
> grind. Do you sell computers? Medical software?
>
> If a patient changes providers it's likely that the tests, while
> perhaps of the same thing, are so that the next provider can see how
> the patients condition has changed. It's rare that there's not some
> intervening time between the two.
>
>> And that's just the tip of the
>>iceberg. To say nothing of the ability to track fraud and abuse in
>>the system. Long overdue, given the number of years we've been in the
>>information age.
>
>>Of course, there will always be the "big brother is watching" crowd
>>who will piss and moan; but they're either paranoid or are already
>>gaming the system and are afraid they'll get caught. Who cares what's
>>in somebody else's files? I don't!
>
> I guess I fall into the paranoid category. Just what "gaming the
> system" do you think would be averted by computerized record keeping?
> Remember that things like overuse of schedule II drugs are already
> dealt with at the pharmacy level.
>
> Let's see. I'm male and old and I have trouble peeing so I go to my
> friendly PCP who says, "BPH, just take these pills and we'll look
> again in six months." I'm not too happy with that conclusion and I
> want to have another opinion so I go off to some urologist who I want
> to start from the beginning. I don't want him to know what the first
> guy said (or recorded) because the natural human tendency is to be
> influenced by that first decision. I don't want him to have any access
> to my records.
>
> He can order another PSA test perhaps even from another lab. A
> repetitive test you'd like to cut out? In any event the time between
> the PCP test and the urologist test is likely to be a couple of months
> and the velocity and quantity of change can be significant.
>
> These two guys might be the greatest MD's since Lister (or whoever you
> want to pick) but what about the speed-speaker aka the "wham bam,
> thank you ma'am" practitioner? He asks you questions so quickly and
> explains so little that nuances that can be significant are lost and
> never recorded or are recorded but aren't what you would have said had
> you known the significance of them.
>
> And then there's the correction of errors. My wife had a heart attack
> a couple of years ago resulting in lots of testing and costs or so her
> insurance company records say. Really she had no heart attack but
> another woman of about the same age and exactly the same name did. The
> insurance company got its electronic hands crossed. Because the heart
> attack victim and my wife both have pay-everything policies it didn't
> cost anything but the insurance company now has my wife as a heart
> attack victim. We've tried for the last two years to have this
> corrected but according to everyone we're allowed to speak to at the
> insurance company (various bimbettes who assert that they can't make
> any decision themselves) it doesn't matter since we didn't pay
> anything. What about prior health care problems if we change
> companies? You see the Kafkaesque nightmare computerized records and
> non-responsive (that's all of them) companies can create. Sure you
> want more computerization?
>
and once all this stuff is in big brother's hands, and available for
compiling, who's to say you won't be denied medical care because you're too
expensive? or you only get an allotted lifetime amount of dollars before
you're no longer allowed medical care. that's with nationalized health
care.

or how about employers denying you employment because you'll cause their
rates to rise? they already do that now via age discrimination since
insurance companies base the premiums on the ages of the workers. too many
fertile age females? cost goes up. too many old farts? cost goes up.
that's happening right now. if they could delve into yours and your
family's medical records and discover that you have a child with an
expensive medical condition, do you think you'll get hired?

== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 30 2009 10:05 am
From: George

AllEmailDeletedImmediately wrote:
>

>> corrected but according to everyone we're allowed to speak to at the
>> insurance company (various bimbettes who assert that they can't make
>> any decision themselves) it doesn't matter since we didn't pay
>> anything. What about prior health care problems if we change
>> companies? You see the Kafkaesque nightmare computerized records and
>> non-responsive (that's all of them) companies can create. Sure you
>> want more computerization?
>>
> and once all this stuff is in big brother's hands, and available for
> compiling, who's to say you won't be denied medical care because you're
> too expensive? or you only get an allotted lifetime amount of dollars
> before you're no longer allowed medical care. that's with nationalized
> health care.

Exactly, knowledge is power. I for one don't want any more national
databases.

>
> or how about employers denying you employment because you'll cause their
> rates to rise? they already do that now via age discrimination since
> insurance companies base the premiums on the ages of the workers. too
> many fertile age females? cost goes up. too many old farts? cost
> goes up. that's happening right now. if they could delve into yours
> and your family's medical records and discover that you have a child
> with an expensive medical condition, do you think you'll get hired?

== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 30 2009 10:40 am
From: George

BigDog1 wrote:
> On Jan 28, 1:38 pm, clams_casino <PeterGrif...@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:
>> AllEmailDeletedImmediately wrote:
>>> http://worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=87322
>> I'm not sure what all the concern is about. Our family doctor has
>> recorded all our records on his laptop / office computer setup for at
>> least five years. It was quite handy when he was on vacation last year
>> and I needed to see a substitute doctor last year.
>>
>> Along that line, I recall all sorts of problems / obviously excessive
>> costs when my mother had a half dozen doctors some eight years ago in
>> her last years with excessive medical problems. They had little idea
>> what each was doing and she was surely not in a position to keep them
>> all updated.
>>
>> Electronic records are the only way to significantly reduce medical
>> costs. Hopefully they will reduce record keeping costs about half has
>> they have done in most all other industries.
>
> Correct. If electronic records do nothing more than eliminate
> unnecessary repetitive tests when a patient changes providers, it will
> save millions of dollars a year. And that's just the tip of the
> iceberg. To say nothing of the ability to track fraud and abuse in
> the system. Long overdue, given the number of years we've been in the
> information age.
>
> Of course, there will always be the "big brother is watching" crowd
> who will piss and moan; but they're either paranoid or are already
> gaming the system and are afraid they'll get caught. Who cares what's
> in somebody else's files? I don't!

Really? They just couldn't be folks who like the idea of personal
liberty and freedom (its an interesting idea and a core reason upon
which our country was founded) and don't care for the idea of a strong
government anything?

== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 30 2009 2:47 pm
From: BigDog1

On Jan 30, 11:40 am, George <geo...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> BigDog1 wrote:
> > On Jan 28, 1:38 pm, clams_casino <PeterGrif...@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:
> >> AllEmailDeletedImmediately wrote:
> >>>http://worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=87322
> >> I'm not sure what all the concern is about. Our family doctor has
> >> recorded all our records on his laptop / office computer setup for at
> >> least five years. It was quite handy when he was on vacation last year
> >> and I needed to see a substitute doctor last year.
>
> >> Along that line, I recall all sorts of problems / obviously excessive
> >> costs when my mother had a half dozen doctors some eight years ago in
> >> her last years with excessive medical problems. They had little idea
> >> what each was doing and she was surely not in a position to keep them
> >> all updated.
>
> >> Electronic records are the only way to significantly reduce medical
> >> costs. Hopefully they will reduce record keeping costs about half has
> >> they have done in most all other industries.
>
> > Correct. If electronic records do nothing more than eliminate
> > unnecessary repetitive tests when a patient changes providers, it will
> > save millions of dollars a year. And that's just the tip of the
> > iceberg. To say nothing of the ability to track fraud and abuse in
> > the system. Long overdue, given the number of years we've been in the
> > information age.
>
> > Of course, there will always be the "big brother is watching" crowd
> > who will piss and moan; but they're either paranoid or are already
> > gaming the system and are afraid they'll get caught. Who cares what's
> > in somebody else's files? I don't!
>
> Really? They just couldn't be folks who like the idea of personal
> liberty and freedom (its an interesting idea and a core reason upon
> which our country was founded) and don't care for the idea of a strong
> government anything?

Or, they could be whacked out paranoid idiots, who will construct a
conspiracy theory for just about any program their government comes up
with.

If think your government can't already find out everything they want
to about you, including your medical history, you're kidding
yourself. The real question is, why would they care? Got something
to hide?

If I'm on the road a thousand miles from home (which I frequently am),
and have some sort of medical crisis or am involved in an accident and
can't cogently communicate with a care provider, I like the idea that
they could quickly access a database that would allow them to give me
proper treatment.

== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 30 2009 4:33 pm
From: BigDog1

On Jan 28, 8:31 pm, NoSpamFo...@LousyISP.gov wrote:
> BigDog1 <bigdog...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Jan 28, 1:38 pm, clams_casino <PeterGrif...@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:
> >> AllEmailDeletedImmediately wrote:
> >> >http://worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=87322
> >> Electronic records are the only way to significantly reduce medical
> >> costs.
>
> The only way? I don't think so. The savings in medical costs are
> likely to be trivial. Try reducing end-of-life (especially surgical)
> interventions to save the really big bucks.
>
> > Hopefully they will reduce record keeping costs about half has
> >> they have done in most all other industries.
>
> And just where do you get the "about half" from? And what are "most
> all" other industries? I'd contend that some industries like insurance
> and mail order couldn't even function without computerized record
> keeping. Others like your local pizza stand have little need.
>
> The real advantage to electronic record keeping is the ease and
> accuracy of the process especially in a hospital environment.
>
> >Correct. If electronic records do nothing more than eliminate
> >unnecessary repetitive tests when a patient changes providers, it will
> >save millions of dollars a year.
>
> Aw, bullshit! I'm trying to work out exactly what axe you have to
> grind. Do you sell computers? Medical software?

Neither. Nor am am I in any way connected with any health care
delivery or support business. Don't know why you'd make such an
assumption. Paranoid?
>
> If a patient changes providers it's likely that the tests, while
> perhaps of the same thing, are so that the next provider can see how
> the patients condition has changed. It's rare that there's not some
> intervening time between the two.
>
That, as you like to say, is BULLSHIT! I have a life long chronic
health problem. Not life threatening so long as I'm careful with my
medication, and get my semi-annual tests to keep them balanced. I've
had occasion to change jobs and health care providers twice in the
past 8 years. No time lags of any kind. Both times my new primary
care provider put me through the full series of very expensive
diagnostic tests, as if I was a patient who walked in with symptoms
and no idea what was causing them. For "confirmation" as they said.
A comprehensive computer database would have avoided that; saved two
insurance companies lots of money; and me a lot of time and
discomfort. My requests that they simply ask my prior provider for
copies of my records fell on deaf ears.

> > And that's just the tip of the
> >iceberg. To say nothing of the ability to track fraud and abuse in
> >the system. Long overdue, given the number of years we've been in the
> >information age.
> >Of course, there will always be the "big brother is watching" crowd
> >who will piss and moan; but they're either paranoid or are already
> >gaming the system and are afraid they'll get caught. Who cares what's
> >in somebody else's files? I don't!
>
> I guess I fall into the paranoid category. Just what "gaming the
> system" do you think would be averted by computerized record keeping?
> Remember that things like overuse of schedule II drugs are already
> dealt with at the pharmacy level.
>
> Let's see. I'm male and old and I have trouble peeing so I go to my
> friendly PCP who says, "BPH, just take these pills and we'll look
> again in six months." I'm not too happy with that conclusion and I
> want to have another opinion so I go off to some urologist who I want
> to start from the beginning. I don't want him to know what the first
> guy said (or recorded) because the natural human tendency is to be
> influenced by that first decision. I don't want him to have any access
> to my records.
>
> He can order another PSA test perhaps even from another lab. A
> repetitive test you'd like to cut out? In any event the time between
> the PCP test and the urologist test is likely to be a couple of months
> and the velocity and quantity of change can be significant.
>
> These two guys might be the greatest MD's since Lister (or whoever you
> want to pick) but what about the speed-speaker aka the "wham bam,
> thank you ma'am" practitioner? He asks you questions so quickly and
> explains so little that nuances that can be significant are lost and
> never recorded or are recorded but aren't what you would have said had
> you known the significance of them.
>
> And then there's the correction of errors. My wife had a heart attack
> a couple of years ago resulting in lots of testing and costs or so her
> insurance company records say. Really she had no heart attack but
> another woman of about the same age and exactly the same name did. The
> insurance company got its electronic hands crossed. Because the heart
> attack victim and my wife both have pay-everything policies it didn't
> cost anything but the insurance company now has my wife as a heart
> attack victim. We've tried for the last two years to have this
> corrected but according to everyone we're allowed to speak to at the
> insurance company (various bimbettes who assert that they can't make
> any decision themselves) it doesn't matter since we didn't pay
> anything. What about prior health care problems if we change
> companies? You see the Kafkaesque nightmare computerized records and
> non-responsive (that's all of them) companies can create. Sure you
> want more computerization?

That's a serious, and I'm sure very frustrating situation. But it has
nothing to do with the fact the records are electronic. They're being
maintained by idiots. If it's truly as simple as you claim (same name
- different patients), and you can't get it fixed, you're talking to
the wrong people, or saying the wrong things to them.

Yes, I want everything computerized!!!!

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 30 2009 9:56 am
From: George

me@privacy.net wrote:
> http://clarkhoward.com/liveweb/shownotes/2009/01/15/14921
>
> what you think?
>
> I'm looking for new cell carrier in
> 63401 area

I think Clark Howards days have past. He just seems to pimp stuff
whether it makes sense or not.

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 30 2009 9:58 am
From: George

me@privacy.net wrote:
> Brian Elfert <belfert@visi.com> wrote:
>
>> Boost has a new $50 unlimited plan, but the review I saw said it is awful
>> and the reviewer's wife went back to another phone before the 30 day
>> review period was up. The main complaint was dropped calls.
>
> have a link to this review?

Just ask someone in your area who happens to be stuck on Sprints crappy
iDEN network which they tried to sell and no one wanted and you will
know what boost is about.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 30 2009 12:00 pm
From: Brian Elfert

George <george@nospam.invalid> writes:

>Just ask someone in your area who happens to be stuck on Sprints crappy
>iDEN network which they tried to sell and no one wanted and you will
>know what boost is about.

My friend still has Nextel because he has lots of other friends with
Nextel for the walkie-talkie feature. I have never been dropped while
talking to him even for 30 minutes.

This doesn't mean that others aren't having trouble.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Outrage; stimulus package would give checks to illegal aliens.
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/c7f4da370de8791e?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 30 2009 10:21 am
From: WBYeats@Ireland.com

On Thu, 29 Jan 2009 15:34:52 -0500, "Woody" <email@munged.com> wrote:

>
>"Major Debacle" <Major_Debacle@the_pentagon.mil> wrote in message
>news:u7ogl.12577$as4.6808@nlpi069.nbdc.sbc.com...
>> ricok987 wrote:
>>> By undocumented you mean illegal right? You know people that higher the
>>> "undocumented" are also breaking the law and if found guilty should be
>>> punished to the maimum allowable.
>>
>> By undocumented you mean illegal *comma* right? You know *comma* people
>> that higher *hire* the "undocumented" are also breaking the law and if
>> found guilty should be punished to the maimum *maximum* allowable.
>
>Actually, I think he meant "maimum." What "maimum" means is another
>question.

It's from a little known admonition in Prince Hal's speech just before
Agincourt. "If you can't killum then maimum."

WB Yeats

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 30 2009 11:13 am
From: "Woody"

<WBYeats@Ireland.com> wrote in message
news:10h6o4tv0lp0g4jlj4sgerlcc397dflvkv@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 29 Jan 2009 15:34:52 -0500, "Woody" <email@munged.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Major Debacle" <Major_Debacle@the_pentagon.mil> wrote in message
>>news:u7ogl.12577$as4.6808@nlpi069.nbdc.sbc.com...
>>> ricok987 wrote:
>>>> By undocumented you mean illegal right? You know people that higher
>>>> the
>>>> "undocumented" are also breaking the law and if found guilty should be
>>>> punished to the maimum allowable.
>>>
>>> By undocumented you mean illegal *comma* right? You know *comma* people
>>> that higher *hire* the "undocumented" are also breaking the law and if
>>> found guilty should be punished to the maimum *maximum* allowable.
>>
>>Actually, I think he meant "maimum." What "maimum" means is another
>>question.
>
> It's from a little known admonition in Prince Hal's speech just before
> Agincourt. "If you can't killum then maimum."
>
> WB Yeats

Holy shit, we have a famous deceased poet in our midst! Kin I have yer
autograph?

Woody

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Joulusauna on käyty
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/7fe12c33f645f378?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 30 2009 12:53 pm
From: Pekka Malin

*On suorastaan mielenkintoista huomata muuten miten juuri SUPO:n
poliisivaltuuksia, nettivakoilua, puhelinsalaisuuksia ja urkintalupia yhän
laajemmin erityisesti Holmlundin toimesta lisätään ydinhallinnollemma
merittäin.. .Mutta, mutta???

*Koskaan ei sen tarkemmin sanota MITEN tätä urkintaa ihan OIKEASTI
suoritetaan ja toimeenpannaan sitten näillä perustuslakirikomuksin
konkretisoiden. On tosiaan aika oleellista, että näin estetään kaikin
mahdollisin keinoin ihmisuhreja tajuamasta miten tämä vakoilemisen sähköinen
muoto toteutetaan "katutasolla". Vain kaltaiseni alan ammattilainen
toisaalta osaa hakea niitä systeemiin liittyviä "akilleen kantapäitä"! On
sanomatta selvää, että kannettaviensa akunpoisto ilman, että koneen
fyysiseen toimintaedellytykseen tulee minkäänlaista ongelmaa haittaa
SUPO/NSA porukkojen kaukolukujensa jne. toimia niinpaljon ettei sellaisia
faktoja saa julkituoda! On totta, ettei tällaisia faktoja sallittaisi sitten
suin surmin levittää kansan tietoisuuksiin, esim tänne nettiin.

*Ja koska kivaa vastaanottoa tuntuu piisaavan niin tässä lisää: Eli usein
ihmisillä on harhakäsitys siitä, että kopioimalla saa ID-koodit
häippäsemään. Kopioikaa kaksi perussivua, tai ajakaa printteriin. Siirtäkää
ne päällekkäin. Ja liu-uttakaa tuuman verran. Huomaatte miten molemmissa
kuvien reunoissa on kuin hyttysen paskapisteitä miltei samanlaisesti
sikinsokin. Nykyään ne voi olla myös esim. vain UV_valossa näkyviä
valkoisia!! Joka reunassa ja kuvan keskialueilla tämä sama CIA-koodeksi
loistaa mukanaolollaan. Siinä on siis päivämääriä, maatunuksia, koneen
omistajia ja kopiomääreitä ja vastaavia kokonaistietokirjoja. Näillä sitten
vielä vaikka kymmenkertaisísta kopioinneista kyetään täsmähakemaan koko
kirjamateriaalin reitti salaisista arkistoista flaierreihin asti.. .Eli
rakkaat lukijat muistakaa nyt myös tällaisten faktojen olemassaaolot.
Nykyinen teknikan maailma on täynään tämän tyyppisiä ydinalan
sudenkuoppameriä. Toki näihin on erinäisiä "kiertoreittejä" mutta ne osaavat
kiertää lähinnä aniharvat alan huippuosaajat.. ..!

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 30 2009 2:50 pm
From: "Bob F"

Dave wrote:
> On Jan 29, 5:14 pm, west...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Jan 29, 6:18 pm, meow2...@care2.com wrote:
>>
>>> OTOH that sort of research is usually limited to patented drugs.
>>> But then again, if it allows release of some things too toxic now,
>>> the aspirin research would be a remarkably high return investment
>>> for any pharm co.
>>
>> If one is taking aspirin, then one is not taking Tylenol. Problem
>> was known even in the early 1970s. Acetaminophen causes liver damage
>> if taken with drinking alcohol. Is aspirin protecting the liver, or
>> just causing the user to not damage his liver by taking
>> Acetaminophen? Without first viewing the numbers, speculation would
>> easily promote aspirin as a solution rather than address
>> Acetaminophen as the problem. Well call that propaganda or spin.
>
> Reading the science, it appears that one daily, tiny aspirin (St.
> Joseph's baby aspirin, as one example) can protect the liver from the
> large doses of acetaminophen that people tend to pop without even
> thinking about it.
>

Do you really expect complainers to read the science? Get real!

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 30 2009 3:23 pm
From: lenona321@yahoo.com

http://www.creators.com/lifestylefeatures/annies-mailbox/annie-s-mailbox-r-2009-01-28.html

Dear Annie: I recently noticed that my grandson spends his allowance
and gift money as soon as he gets it. In fact, he is almost frantic to
spend it. I wondered why, and then found out that instead of timeouts
or having privileges rescinded, he is disciplined by having his money
taken away. That explains why he wants to exchange it for tangible
goods as quickly as possible.

I am concerned that this method of discipline is setting him up for
financial failure later in life. He is only 8 years old, but early
experiences with money can be very significant.

My input would be seen as unwelcome interference.
Is there anything I can do to help my grandchild learn money
management skills in this type of environment? Are there more
effective forms of discipline? — Observant Granny

Dear Granny: Most discipline involves taking away something the child
values, such as toys, television time or interacting with friends and
family members. In your grandson's case, it's money. Essentially, he
is being fined for bad behavior. That would be OK if it's a specific
amount. However, if a large or arbitrary amount is taken when he
misbehaves, it teaches him to spend immediately and not save anything,
both of which are terrible habits to learn.

Offer to set up a savings account for your grandson, in his name and
yours, where he can put aside some of the gift money you (and others)
give him. Let him see the balance grow, and encourage him to save up
for something specific. That might help.

(end)

Regarding what the parents are doing, it seems to me that even if it
ISN'T a large or arbitrary amount, the effect would likely be the
same!

Lenona.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 30 2009 4:02 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

lenona321@yahoo.com wrote:
> http://www.creators.com/lifestylefeatures/annies-mailbox/annie-s-mailbox-r-2009-01-28.html
>
> Dear Annie: I recently noticed that my grandson spends his allowance
> and gift money as soon as he gets it. In fact, he is almost frantic to
> spend it. I wondered why, and then found out that instead of timeouts
> or having privileges rescinded, he is disciplined by having his money
> taken away. That explains why he wants to exchange it for tangible
> goods as quickly as possible.
>
> I am concerned that this method of discipline is setting him up for
> financial failure later in life. He is only 8 years old, but early
> experiences with money can be very significant.
>
> My input would be seen as unwelcome interference.
> Is there anything I can do to help my grandchild learn money
> management skills in this type of environment? Are there more
> effective forms of discipline? — Observant Granny
>
> Dear Granny: Most discipline involves taking away something the child
> values, such as toys, television time or interacting with friends and
> family members. In your grandson's case, it's money. Essentially, he
> is being fined for bad behavior. That would be OK if it's a specific
> amount. However, if a large or arbitrary amount is taken when he
> misbehaves, it teaches him to spend immediately and not save anything,
> both of which are terrible habits to learn.
>
> Offer to set up a savings account for your grandson, in his name and
> yours, where he can put aside some of the gift money you (and others)
> give him. Let him see the balance grow, and encourage him to save up
> for something specific. That might help.
>
> (end)
>
> Regarding what the parents are doing, it seems to me that even if it
> ISN'T a large or arbitrary amount, the effect would likely be the same!

Likely. Be interesting to see how he turns out.

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Frugal Living

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Saturday, January 31, 2009

misc.consumers.frugal-living - 25 new messages in 8 topics - digest

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Friday, January 30, 2009

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