Frugal Living: 25 new messages in 15 topics

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: (www.globwholesale.com) Wholesale Lacoste Trainers, Adidas NBA Shoes,
Uqq Designers Boots,Artful Dodqer Jeans-Hoody,ED Hardy Jeans-Hoodies- Tshirts,
Anya Hindmarch Bags, Discout Gucci Sneakers&Handbags, Prada Juicy Purses,Nokia
N76/N93/95/7500 Mobile Phone, MP3/MP4
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/312df702bd13a404?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 2 2007 12:09 am
From: globwholesale@126.com

Dear my friend
It is our pleasure to meet you here.
we are wholesaler sport shoes,clothing,electrons in Fujian of China.
our website: http://www.globwholesale.com
We are professional and honest wholesaler of all kinds of brand
sneaks and apparel.the products
our company supply are as follows:
1).Nike Jordans
Jordan 1 jordan 1.5 jordan 2 jordan 3 jordan 3.5 jordan 4 jordan 5
jordan 5.5 jordan 6 jordan 6.5 jordan 7 jordan 8 jordan 9 jordan 9.5
jordan 10 jordan 11 jordan 12 jordan 13 jordan 13.5 jordan 14 jordan
15 jordan 16 jordan 17 jordan 18 jordan 18.5 jordan 19 jordan 20
jordan 21 jordan 21.5 jordan 22 jordan King jordan Dub Zero Jordan 23
Jordan 7.5
2).Air Force One Air Force one (low) Air Force one (High) Air Force
one (Mid) Air Force one (clear) Air Force One 25 year
3).SHOX Shox R3 Shox R4 Shox R5 Shox TL1 Shox TL2 Shox TL3 Shox NZ
Shox OZ Shox Turbo Show GO Shox CL Shox Coqnescenti Shox Energia Shox
Explodine Shox Monster Shox Rhythmic Shox Warrior
4).Bape Shoes Bape Bape (transparent)
5).Air max AirMax 90 AirMax 95 AirMax 97 AirMax 2003 AirMax 2004
AirMax 2005 Air Max 2006 AirMax 180 AirMax LTD AirMax TN AirMax solas
AirMax 87 AirMax Rift
6).Puma Puma Rpt2 Puma SK6 Puma Jayfi Puma Cir Puma Speed Puma Repli
Puma Future Cat Puma Mostro Puma Lifestyle
7).Dunk SB Dunk High Dunk Low
8).Timberland Timberland High Timberland Low
9).Adidas Adidas 35 Adicolor Country city sense Adidas NBA
11).Prada & Gucci Prada Gucci
12).Footballer Shoes Footballer
13).Locaste
14).converse & Reebok converse Reebok
15).D&G shoes
16).Dsquared2 shoes
17).James shoes
18).Nike King
9).Children shoes Jordan Shox
20).Women shoes Women Jordans Women Shox R3 Women Shox R4 Women
AirMax
95&97 Women AirMax 03&06 Women Dunk Women Shox NZ Women AF1
21).sandal & baboosh Nike Puma Gucci Prada
CLOTHES 1).Bape 2).ED Hardy 3).BBC 4).CLH 5).LRG 6).Artful Dodger
Hoodies 7).GINO GREEN GLOBAL 8).10 Deep 9).A&F Coat 11).Jersey NBA
Jersey Football Jersey 12).Juicy Bikini 13).Adidas Coat 14).F1 Coat
15).D&G Coat 16).Superman Coat 17).NBA Coat
JEAN 1).E&D Jeans 2).BBC Jeans 3).BAPE Jeans 4).D&G Jeans 5).EVSIU
Jeans 6).Red monkey 7).COOGI Jeans
T-shirt 1).POLO 2007 polo(women) 2007 POLO IIII(Men) POLO (stripe)
polo (small )
2).Lacoste Lacoste (LONG) Lacoste (SHORT) 3).Name Brand shirt D&G
Shirt Giorgio Armani TN Shirt 4).BBC T-shirt 5).LRG & gina green
glalal 6).Triumvir 7).ED handy 8).Evsiu 9).R.M.B 10).CLOT
Burse & Handbag 1).LV Bag 2).Gucci Bag 3).Dior Bag 4).Chanel Bag
5).Fendi Bag 6).Coach Bag 7).Burberrys Bag 8).Prada Bag 9).Man
Leisure
Bag 11).D&G bag 12).nike bag 13).Wallet 14).Suitcase
Electronics 1).Vertu Mobile 2).New iphone Mobile 3).Nokia Mobile
4).moto Mobile 5).PSP Game & memory card 6).Sony Mobile 7).Samsung
Mobile 8).Ipod nano 9).Sony PS3 10).Laptops IBM laptops DELL laptops
Sony laptops ASUS laptops
CAP 1).ED Hardy Cap 2).New Bape & NY Cap 3).RMC Cap 4).New era NBA
5).F1 6).Chanel 7).D&G 8).gucci 9).LV 10).Prada 11).PUMA 12).wool
WATCH 1).Rolex 2).Omega 3).Cartier 4).Chanel 5).Piaget 6).Breitling
7).Bvlgari 8).Corum
Sunglasses 1).Gucci Sunglasses 2).D&G Sunglasses 3).Dior Sunglasses
4).LV Sunglasses 5).Chanel Sunglasses 6).Prada Sunglasses 7).Versace
Sunglasses 8).Giorgio Armani
Strap 1).Bape Strap 2).D&G Strap 3).Gucci Strap 4).LV Strap 5).Scarf
Other 1).Lighter

size chart
Men Size:
US: 7 8 8.5 9 9.5 10 10.5 11 11.5 12 13 14 15
UK: 6 7 7.5 8 8.5 9 9.5 10 10.5 11 12 13 14
EUR: 40 41 42 42.5 43 44 44.5 45 45.5 46 47.5 48 49
Women Size:
US: 5 5.5 6 6.5 7 7.5 8 8.5
UK: 2.5 3 3.5 4 4.5 5 5.5 6
EUR: 35.5 36 36.5 37.5 38 38.5 39 40

Kid's
US: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 7.5 8 8.5 9 9.5 10 10.5 11 11.5 12 12.5 13 13.5
UK: 13 1 2 3 4 5 6 6.5 7 7.5 8 8.5 9 9.5 10 10.5 11 11.5 12 12.5
EUR:17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 24.5 25 25.5 26 26.5 27 27.5 28 29 30
30.5
31

Clothing Size:
S M L XL XXL XXXL XXXXL XXXXXL

7.because the space of the website is limited,we can also supply many
other products which be not showed out in our site. if you have the
photos of the products you need , we are pleasure to supply for your
orders.
And our company can supply for our customers ,as follow:
1. top quality.all our products have top quality.
2. most rational price. we offer the most competitive price to you
to
open your market. So today most of our products have sold well in the
America, Europe, Middle East, Southeast Asia etc..
3. safe and fast shipment. As different country you are in, we will
deliver the products to you by different ways and pledge to arrive to
your address 100%.and we will send the products to you within 24h
after we get your payment.
4.many products in stock. We have many products in stock and kinds of
size you need , also include kid's.
5.our credit. If the products can be not delivered to your address as
our reason, we will refund the money you paid.
Hope sincerely to have glad and long term business relationship with
you.
If you are interested in our products and have any problem, welcome
to
contact us.
Please trust us , we will be your best choice !!!

Website : http://www.globwholesale.com
Yahoo ID:globwholesale@yahoo.com.cn
Michael
Fashion Footwear Industrial Co.,Ltd.(Fujian,CHINA)

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Black Friday scams
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/d88b4ca08eaef9f9?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 2 2007 12:09 am
From: The Trucker

On Sat, 01 Dec 2007 15:15:28 -0800, The Real Bev wrote:

> The Trucker wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 09:35:22 -0800, Steve wrote:
>>
>>> The Real Bev <bashley101+usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> This is an old argument. I'll do rebates because you can't get the
>>>> same or equivalent stuff at a better price without the rebates. I
>>>> pay attention to what I'm doing and have been burned for less than
>>>> $10 over a 10-year+ period.
>>>
>>> Same here, have saved literally thousands of dollars, and always wait
>>> at least 4 months before following up.
>
> I guess we can crab about SOMEBODY using our money for free until we cash
> the rebate check, but the current return on such amounts isn't worth
> worrying about -- the truly observant can make up the difference just by
> picking up change on the ground.

Sorry, but that one doesn't fly either. It is a question of scale.

>> All either one of you has actually done is to participate in the scam.
>> People normally attempt to take advantage of the rebate. They then find
>> that it is more trouble than it is worth or that the sales people and the
>> manufacturers have already stuck it in em by making the window of filing
>> opportunity to short.
>
> OTOH, it's extremely gratifying that stupidity and/or carelessness SOMETIMES
> have actual penalties. It's even more gratifying to find that *I* profit
> from those penalties.

Ahh... A Republican.

> BTW, the "short window" provided by Staples recently was 60 days after
> purchase. I can gripe about the design of Staples' 'easy rebate' program,
> but it's certainly easier and cheaper than filling in, xeroxing and mailing
> all those forms.

This would be an example of the RETAILER taking responsibility for the
rebate and in that case we may see a legitimate rebate program.

>> If it was a legitimate sales activity it could be done by the retailers
>> and/or the wholesale price could be cut and these practices would be
>> much more efficient.
>
> If it was NOT a legitimate sales activity, surely there would be lawyers
> filing class-action suits against the companies involved. Seen any of
> those?

I will not be retaining legal counsel in my fight for the $5 that the
manufacturer of my pci network card screwed my out of.

>> Why would the manufacturer suffer the overhead of dealing with the
>> rebates if he could just lower the price and get the same gross
>> margins?
>
> Because the current system is more profitable?

Yes... Exactly correct. The profit is made on the scam.

>> The answer is that it is a scam that depends on deception concerning
>> the amount of customer effort required to obtain the rebate.
>
> What deception? I understand how it works and act accordingly. What
> part of "Follow the instructions TO THE LETTER" do you not understand?
> Is it MY fault that you have reading comprehension problems?

I don't have a problem any longer. I don't participate.

>> It really is very much like private health insurance.
>
> Actually, no. You are punished for using private health insurance; you
> are rewarded for using rebates.

No. You are punished with a lot of paper work crap. You can just keep
the #$#_($%& product, Mr. Republican.

--
"I know no safe depository of the ultimate powers
of society but the people themselves; and
if we think them not enlightened enough to
exercise their control with a wholesome
discretion, the remedy is not to take it from
them, but to inform their discretion by
education." - Thomas Jefferson
http://GreaterVoice.org/extend

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 2 2007 7:15 am
From: Scott in SoCal

On Sat, 1 Dec 2007 19:39:26 -0500, krw <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:

>In article <r_l4j.624$Mb.486@newsfe07.lga>, bashley101
>+usenet@gmail.com says...
>> Steve wrote:
>>
>> > "Evelyn C. Leeper" <eleeper@optonline.net> wrote:
>> >>Has anyone mentioned that the rebates are also pretty useless if you
>> >>want to give the item as a gift? (I don't know about you, but I would
>> >>not feel right about giving a gift with the UPC code cut out!)
>> >
>> > I've seen people cut the UPC off another box in the store. Just goes
>> > to show ya...
>>
>> I know somebody who used to switch price tags at the Goodwill store.
>
>You've *got* to be kidding. Does he take money out of the Salvation
>Army kettles when the ringers aren't looking too?

Naw... He takes the entire kettle.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Crucial Criteria for choosing equipment.
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/ee8cb2f81c0d6b16?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 2 2007 12:18 am
From: "Brian Gaff"

I think laptops is a bad thing to look at if its only the processor which is
considered. There is quality of build, susceptibility to muck and rubbish
causing overheating, and of course the hardware inside attached to the
processor, ie, how much ram is pinched by other parts rather than having
dedicated ram, and does it slow down on battery to keep battery life
artificially high.

With TVs, and although I can no longer see enough to tell, I'm a great fan
of actually watching them first.

Depends on which sort of flat display you go for of course as well.

I'm told by those who have bought, that to them, Panasonic and Sony seem
the best lcd, but I have no idea who actually makes the panels.

Brian

--
Brian Gaff....Note, this account does not accept Bcc: email.
graphics are great, but the blind can't hear them
Email: briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

"johngood_____" <time.dream95@REMOOVEvirgin.net> wrote in message
news:RH_3j.103$jy3.24@newsfe7-win.ntli.net...
> Recently I saw in a newsgroup topic about 'choosing' a new laptop
> computer, I saw that somebody cut through the endless, "thats a good make
> or that's not a good make" by what looked like to me as going to the
> heart of the matter.
>
> That is, by considering from their relevant web sites; what the
> 'specification' of specific computer chips of either of the two main
> makers, AMD or Intel, the laptop computer had inside it. Then after that
> perhaps other criterion can be looked at like customer service, etc, etc.
>
> When it comes to buying a new flat screen television is there an
> insightful way to give priority to one or two criterion for choosing a new
> set from the massive and bewildering array of new models now on the
> market?
>
> I am a novice in this area, but I have heard that there a only a very few
> makers of the actual flat screens, who then go on to supply most of the
> famous brands. So might that be a crucial area to consider first?
>
> Any information around this I would be grateful for. Also I've heard that
> the sound of the set is relatively uninportant, since it will be
> drastically improved by feeding the sound out through and audio
> amplifier?
>
> Grateful for any advice on the above and the few criteria you yourself
> would consider first. Thanks
>
>

== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 2 2007 12:22 am
From: "Brian Gaff"

Normally, your rights are with the retailer not the manufacturer. I'd be
onto whoever sold it and get a new one.

Brian

"tony sayer" <tony@bancom.co.uk> wrote in message
news:$HDM$$NnfKUHFwBW@bancom.co.uk...
> In article <13l115osvnamed6@corp.supernews.com>, super <MR@spark.com>
> scribeth thus
>>
>>"David" <david.park@tesco.net> wrote in message
>>news:i2%3j.28$ov2.5@newsfe5-win.ntli.net...
>>>
>>> "super" <MR@spark.com> wrote in message
>>> news:13l0udroo1orl15@corp.supernews.com...
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Go to WHSmith and browse or buy some review mags.
>>>>
>>> Not too sure on that.
>>> When I bought my laptop it was £399 and all stores had that price on
>>> thier
>>> lowest one. But the mags. seemed to only mention laptops of £600/700 +,
>>> I
>>> think they written by people with pots of money.
>>>
>>
>>I was really talking with respect to the TV monitor screens in the post.
>>
>>Up until a week ago I thought Samsung equipment was good. I was about to
>>buy
>>250 of their laptops for work, but a stunningly nightmarish support call
>>to
>>them recently means I won't EVER purchase anything from them again. I used
>>to be impressed by them too.
>>
>>Their Scottish helpdesk told me to get lost over a faulty monitor, even
>>though it was only 6 months old and displayed a vertical line with 4
>>different computers (2 new Vista, 2 oldish XP). Monitor had to go in bin,
>>as
>>the user couldn't work with it.
>>
>>Caveat Emptor.
>>
>>
>
> Same here sam can go and get sung!! not again!..
>
>
> --
> Tony Sayer
>
>
>

== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 2 2007 1:26 am
From: Marky P

On Sat, 01 Dec 2007 22:58:02 GMT, "AllEmailDeletedImmediately"
<derjda@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
>"johngood_____" <time.dream95@REMOOVEvirgin.net> wrote in message
>news:RH_3j.103$jy3.24@newsfe7-win.ntli.net...
>> Recently I saw in a newsgroup topic about 'choosing' a new laptop
>> computer, I saw that somebody cut through the endless, "thats a good make
>> or that's not a good make" by what looked like to me as going to the
>> heart of the matter.
>>
>> That is, by considering from their relevant web sites; what the
>> 'specification' of specific computer chips of either of the two main
>> makers, AMD or Intel, the laptop computer had inside it. Then after that
>> perhaps other criterion can be looked at like customer service, etc, etc.
>>
>> When it comes to buying a new flat screen television is there an
>> insightful way to give priority to one or two criterion for choosing a new
>> set from the massive and bewildering array of new models now on the
>> market?
>>
>> I am a novice in this area, but I have heard that there a only a very few
>> makers of the actual flat screens, who then go on to supply most of the
>> famous brands. So might that be a crucial area to consider first?
>
>do not buy a plasma. they will run up your electric bill way high.
>i'll check with dh, a broadcast engineer and see what he has to say.
>
That's what worried me about owning a plasma, but I can't say I've
noticed much difference when the bill came through.

Marky P.

== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 2 2007 2:02 am
From: Adrian C

Roderick Stewart wrote:
I'm certainly
> not snobbish about revolutionary designs that actually improve things.
>

That will be you. The shiny shiny technophone and elderly set are a
different breed ...

--
Adrian C

== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 2 2007 2:46 am
From: "Dave Saville"

On Sat, 1 Dec 2007 10:53:33 UTC, "Brian" <blecnospam@tesco.net> wrote:

> > Their Scottish helpdesk told me to get lost over a faulty monitor, even
> > though it was only 6 months old and displayed a vertical line with 4
> > different computers (2 new Vista, 2 oldish XP). Monitor had to go in bin,
> as
> > the user couldn't work with it.
> >
> > Caveat Emptor.
> >
>
> Well you should not have given up. If the monitor was not more than 6 months
> old, the sale of goods act - specifically the "provision of goods and
> services regulations 2002" specifically state that any fault which manifests
> itself within the first 6 months is deemd to have been there when supplied
> new, and it is up to the supplier to PROVE that it was not.

Ah but does the SOG and Distance regs cover *company* purchases? -
which I gather this was given the OP mentioned buying 250 laptops!

--
Regards
Dave Saville

NB Remove nospam. for good email address

==============================================================================
TOPIC: frugal Microsoft Vista option -- Home Basic edition
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/c902a3c61145a3f2?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 2 2007 1:05 am
From: Binyamin Dissen

On Thu, 29 Nov 2007 16:20:56 -0800 JL <noone@nowheresville.biz> wrote:

:> It recognized all of my hardware
:>(4 year old Compaq Evo 2.4 gig P4 with 768mb RAM, onboard
:>video/sound/USB 2.0 card, etc.).

Vista with only 768M? And it runs OK?

--
Binyamin Dissen <bdissen@dissensoftware.com>
http://www.dissensoftware.com

Should you use the mailblocks package and expect a response from me,
you should preauthorize the dissensoftware.com domain.

I very rarely bother responding to challenge/response systems,
especially those from irresponsible companies.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Sewing Machine: Repair or replace
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/8dc420a167e31d49?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 2 2007 1:19 am
From: Melinda Meahan - take out TRASH to reply

I can't tell you if it's worth repairing without knowing the model
number and what the repair is. If you think you wanted to try to handle
it youself, you could try the Wefixit Yahoo group for people who repair
their own sewing machines.

If you only need a simple machine for mending, check thrift stores,
classifieds, Craigslist, ask all your friends and neighbors, etc., for a
good machine from the 50s, 60s, or 70s in good condition. There are
many still out there, you can usually get them for cheap, and with
regular care they will still being sewing for your grandchildren or
great-grandchildren long after the electronic and computerized models
sold today have hit the scrap heap because they don't make the
electronic parts to repair it with any more.

I own or have owned Singer 15, 66, 99, 187 (a modified 99), 198 (another
modified 99), 301, 400, and 500 machines, none of which cost me over
$150 and most of which cost me about $20, along with a nice 70s era
reconditioned 30-stitch New Home machine that I got from the local
sewing machine store for $120, several Kenmores of 60s and 70s vintage
that were workhorses, and a New Home and an Eldredge treadle. I hope
never to touch a computerized machine (partly for reasons stated above
and partly becuase I am in an older house and don't trust the electrical
system not to ruin the sewing machine's electronics like it has an
auto-shut-off iron and a few other things in my stay here).

To replace an older basic sewing machine with a new one *of comparable
quality* (and you don't want the cheapest quality machines out there
these days -- they don't hold their tension and have other problems),
you will probably need to spend about $250-300 for a basic machine. But
the older used machines are wonderful and inexpensive.

--
Every job is a self-portrait of the person who does it. Autograph your
work with excellence.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 2 2007 5:25 am
From: Pat in NJ

Chloe wrote:
> Any experts out there? Our seldom-used, ca. 30-year-old, portable Singer
> needs a repair that will probably run $125 or so. ($50 minimum just to have
> the repair shop look at it.) For now and in the foreseeable future, the
> machine is/will be only used for simple mending, but it does come in handy.
> And at our age, DH and I only need something that'll last another 20 years
> or so <g>.
>
> Can someone tell me what a decent quality, very basic machine will cost if
> we want to replace this one?
>
>
You could watch for the same model sewing machine that you have to come
up on eBay. I recently purchased the same model Singer that I've had
for 35 years for a beginner teen to use. The machine had hardly been
used but did need to be oiled. She lives 50 miles from me so if she
calls with problems with the machine, I can usually solve them. Buying
the same model eliminates the learning curve. I also bought a low end
Kenmore machine 2 years ago. I alternate between the 2 machines. Both
machines have different features that I really like. The old one has
the bobbin rewinder built in which is really nice. The new one has a
buttonholer that makes the buttonholes to the exact size of the button.

If you buy a new one, try it out first on fabric that you bring to the
store. Keep in mind that to sew over heavier fabric you will need the
proper size needle for the task. A size 11 needle is not meant to sew
denim.

Pat in NJ

==============================================================================
TOPIC: nokia N95,8800,iphone,ipod mp4
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/9696c3bc52ddc22c?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 2 2007 1:39 am
From: daisha52018@gmail.com

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==============================================================================
TOPIC: http://www.googleeclub.com/
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/2935479e2105fa34?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 2 2007 4:02 am
From: raniltheswa@yahoo.com

Joint with www.Google e Club.com Its fun

==============================================================================
TOPIC: cheap nike jordan jordan shoes jordan7 jordan22 www.worldshoessell.com
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/ae6303fd67994ba5?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 2 2007 4:08 am
From: shoessos@hotmail.com

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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Living without a credit card
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/1543df3db7e868b6?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 2 2007 5:06 am
From: Neil Jones

Hello,

I have problem with credit cards. I flash them for gas, sometimes for
lunch, groceries etc. They are the small ticket items but are
accumulating on my balance. Now that I have accepted that I have a
problem, I want to really wean out of this reliance on credit card.
Please share with me if anyone in this forum had this problem and have
successfully detached from the credit card. The balance is really
stressing me out.

Thank you in advance for any help.

NJ
---------------------
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== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 2 2007 5:12 am
From: Shawn Hirn

In article <_aWdnVQwb7GKM8_anZ2dnUVZ_gqdnZ2d@comcast.com>,
Neil Jones <castellan2004-atnews@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I have problem with credit cards. I flash them for gas, sometimes for
> lunch, groceries etc. They are the small ticket items but are
> accumulating on my balance. Now that I have accepted that I have a
> problem, I want to really wean out of this reliance on credit card.
> Please share with me if anyone in this forum had this problem and have
> successfully detached from the credit card. The balance is really
> stressing me out.

Cut up your credit cards or take them out of your wallet and stash them
at home where they are not within easy reach.

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 2 2007 5:23 am
From: "Daniel T."

Neil Jones <castellan2004-atnews@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I have problem with credit cards. I flash them for gas, sometimes for
> lunch, groceries etc. They are the small ticket items but are
> accumulating on my balance. Now that I have accepted that I have a
> problem, I want to really wean out of this reliance on credit card.
> Please share with me if anyone in this forum had this problem and have
> successfully detached from the credit card. The balance is really
> stressing me out.

The credit card is not the problem, rather it is the fact that you are
spending more than you make that is the problem.

1) Plan your spending before you spend your money. At the beginning of
the month, decide how much you are going to spend and what you are going
to spend it on. Don't spend more than you are going to make that month.
If you have a variable income, then don't spend more than you made last
month. Try to aim for spending about 10% less.

2) Track your credit card balance as carefully as you track your
checkbook balance. It's a good idea to even keep an extra check register
on hand for credit card purchases and write them in the register when
you make a purchase.

3) Make sure that your monthly statement balance is less this month than
it was last month, do that every month and you *will* pay off the pesky
card.

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 2 2007 6:31 am
From: clams casino

Neil Jones wrote:

Can't help - Since I always pay all balance every month when due every
month, I don't have any problems. In fact, by paying them off every
month, I realize a good $500+ gain every year in rebates.

Credit cards can be quite advantageous - provided they are paid off
entirely when due each month.

Actually, your problem is not the credit cards. Your problem is
spending more than you can afford to pay. With very, very few
exceptions, there is essentially NO valid reason to ever carry a credit
card balance.

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== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 2 2007 6:50 am
From: aassime abdellatif

Christ in Islam

by Ahmed Deedat

Chapter One : Christian Muslim Responses

Debate on TV

At the end of the debate - "Christianity and Islam" - which appeared
on the SABC-TV program "Cross Questions" on Sunday 5th June 1983, the
Chairman, Mr. Bill Chalmers commented: "I think it can be said from
this discussion that there is, at present, somewhat more accommodation
on the Islamic side for the founder of Christianity than there is on
the Christian side for the founder of Islam. What the significance of
that is, we leave it to you, the viewer, to determine, but I do think
you will agree that it is a good thing that we are talking together."

"Bill" as he is popularly addressed, without any formalities, on all
his programs, by all his panelists, is extremely charming and
stupendous in his humility. He is a picture of what the Holy Quran
portrays of a good Christian:

"...And nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find
those who say: 'We are Christians': because among these are men
devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world. And they are
not arrogant." (The Holy Quran 5:82)

Jesus - His Status

Were the Muslims on the panel trying to placate the viewers out
policy, deceit or diplomacy? Nothing of the kind! They were only
articulating what God Almighty had commanded them to say in the Holy
Quran. As Muslims, they had no choice. They had said in so many words:
"We Muslims believe, that Jesus was one of the mightiest messengers of
God that he was the Christ, that he was born miraculously without any
male intervention (which many modern-day Christians do not believe
today), that he gave life to the dead by God's permission and that he
healed those born blind and the lepers by god's permission. In fact,
no Muslim is a Muslim if he or she does not believe in Jesus!"

Pleasant Surprise

Over 90% of the people who witnessed this debate must have been
pleasantly, but skeptically, surprised. They might have not believed
their ears. They must have surmised that the Muslims were playing to
the gallery - that they were trying to curry favor with their fellow
Christian countrymen; that if the Muslims would say a few good words
about Jesus, then in reciprocation the Christians might say a few good
words about Muhammed (may the peace and the blessings of God be upon
all His righteous servants, Moses, Jesus, Muhammed...etc.); that I
scratch your back and you scratch my back - which would be a sham or
hypocrisy.

Hate Cultivated

We cannot blame the Christians for their skepticism. They have been so
learned for centuries. They were trained to think the worst of the man
Muhammed, salla Allah u alihi wa sallam, and his religion. How aptly
did Thomas Carlyle say about his Christian brethren over a hundred and
fifty years ago: "The lies which well-meaning zeal has heaped round
this man (Muhammed) are disgraceful to ourselves only." We Muslims are
partly responsible for this. We have not done anything substantial to
remove the cobwebs.

Ocean of Christianity

South Africa is an ocean of Christianity. If Libya boasts the highest
percentage of Muslims on the continent of Africa, then the Republic of
South Africa would also be entitled to boast the highest percentage of
Christians. In this ocean of Christianity the R.S.A. - the Muslims are
barely 2% of the total population. We are a voteless minority -
numerically, we count for nothing; politically, we count for nothing;
and economically, one white man, as Oppenheimer, could buy out the
whole lot of us, lock, stock and barrel.

So if we had feigned to appease, we might be excused. But no! We must
proclaim our Master's Will; we must declare the Truth, whether we
liked it or not. In the words of Jesus: "Seek ye the truth, and the
truth shall set you free" (John 8:32).

Chapter Two : Jesus in the Quran

Christians Unaware

The Christian does not know that the true spirit of charity which the
Muslim displays, always, towards Jesus and his mother Mary spring from
the fountainhead of his faith - the Holy Quran. He does not know that
the Muslim does not take the holy name of Jesus, in his own language,
without saying Eesa, alaihi assalam ("Jesus, peace be upon him")

The Christian does not know that in the Holy Quran Jesus is mentioned
twenty five times. For example:

"We gave Jesus, the son of Mary, clear signs and strengthened him with
the Holy Spirit" (The Holy Quran 2:87)

"O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name
will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary..." (3:45)

"...Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of
god..." (4:171)

"...And in their foot steps we sent Jesus the son of Mary..." (5:46)

"And Zakariya and John, and Jesus and Elias: all in the ranks of the
righteous." (6:85)

Jesus - His Titles

Though Jesus is mentioned by name in twenty-five places in the Holy
Quran, he is also addressed with respect as: Ibn Maryam, meaning "The
son of Mary"; and as the Maseeh (in Hebrew it is the Messiah), which
is translated as "Christ". He is also known as Abdullah, "The servant
of Allah"; and as Rasul u Allah, the messenger of Allah.

He is spoken of as "The Word of God", as "The Spirit of God", as a
"Sign of God", and numerous other epithets of honor spread over
fifteen different chapters. The Holy Quran honors this mighty
messenger of God, and the Muslims have not fallen short over the past
fourteen hundred years in doing the same. There is not a single
disparaging remark in the entire Quran to which even the most
jaundiced among the Christians can take exception.

Eesa Latinised to "Jesus"

The Holy Quran refers to Jesus as Eesa, and this name is used more
times than any other title, because this was his "Christian" name.
Actually, his proper name was Eesa (Arabic), or Esau (Hebrew);
classical Yeheshua, which the Christian nations of the West latinised
as Jesus. Neither the "J" nor the second "s" in the name Jesus is to
be found in the original tongue - they are not found in the Semitic
languages.

The word is very simply "E S A U" a very common Jewish name, used more
than sixty times in the very first booklet alone of the Bible, in the
part called "Genesis". There was at least one "Jesus" sitting on the
"bench" at the trial of Jesus before the Sanhedrin. Josephus the
Jewish historian mentions some twenty five Jesus' in his "Book of
Antiquities". The New Testament speaks of "Bar-Jesus" a magician and a
sorcerer, a false prophet (Acts 13:6); and also "Jesus-Justus" a
Christian missionary, a contemporary of Paul (Colossians 4:11). These
are distinct from Jesus the son of Mary. Transforming "Esau" to
(J)esu(s) - Jesus - makes it unique. This unique (?) name has gone out
of currency among the Jews and the Christians from the 2nd century
after Christ. Among the Jews, because it came to be a name of ill -
repute, the name of one who blasphemed in Jewry; and among the
Christians because it came to be the proper name of their God. The
Muslim will not hesitate to name his son Eesa because it is an honored
name, the name of a righteous servant of the Lord.

Chapter Three : Mother And Son

Mary Honored

The birth of Jesus Christ is described in two places of the Quran -
chapter 3 and chapter 19. Reading from the beginning of his birth, we
come across the story of Mary, and the esteemed position which she
occupies in the House of Islam, before the actual annunciation of the
birth of Jesus is given:

"'Behold'! the angels said: 'O Mary! God hath chosen thee and purified
thee, and chosen thee above the women of all nations" (3:42)

"Chosen thee above the women of all nations." Such an honor is not to
be found given to Mary even in the Christian Bible! The verse
continues:

"O Mary! Worship thy Lord devoutly: prostrate thyself, and bow down
(in prayer) with those who bow down." (3:43)

Divine Revelation

What is the source of this beautiful and sublime recitation which, in
its original Arabic, moves men to ecstasy and tears? verse 44 below
explains:

"This is part of the tidings, of the things unseen, which We reveal
unto thee (O Muhammad!) by inspiration: Thou wast not with them when
they cast lots with arrows, as to which of them should be charged with
the care of Mary: nor wast thou with them when they disputed (the
point)." (3:44)

Mary's Birth

The story is that the maternal grandmother of Jesus, Hannah, had
hitherto been barren. She poured out her heart to God: If only God
will grant her a child, she would surely dedicate such a child for the
service of God in the temple.

God granted her prayer and Mary was born. Hannah was disappointed. She
was yearning for a son, but instead she delivered a daughter; and in
no way is the female like the male, for what she had in mind. What was
she to do? She had made a vow to God. She waited for Mary to be big
enough to fend for herself.

When the time came, Hannah took her darling daughter to the temple, to
hand over for temple services. Every priest wanted to be the god-
father of this child. They cast lots with arrows for her - like the
tossing of the coin - head or tail?
eventually she fell to the lot of Zakariya, but not without a dispute.

The Source of His Message

This was the story. But where did Muhammed, salla Allah u alihi wa
sallam, get this knowledge from? He was an Ummi, Arabic for
"unlettered". He did not low how to read or write. He is made by God
Almighty to answer this very question in the verse above, by saying
that it was all by divine inspiration. "No!", says the
controversialist. "This is Muhammed's own concoction. He copied his
revelations from the Jews and Christians. He plagiarized it. He forged
it."

Knowing full-well, and believing as we do, that the whole Quran is the
veritable Word of God, we will nevertheless agree, for the sake of
argument, with the enemies of Muhammed, salla Allah u alihi wa sallam,
for a moment, that he wrote it. We can now expect some cooperation
from the unbelievers.

Ask him: "Have you any qualms in agreeing that Muhammed was an Arab?"
Only an ignorant will hesitate to agree. In that case there is no
sense in pursuing any discussion. Cut short the talk. Close the book!

With the man of reason, we proceed. "That this Arab, in the first
instance, was addressing other Arabs. He was not talking to Indian
Muslims, Chinese Muslims, or Nigerian Muslims. He was addressing his
own people, the Arabs. Whether they agreed with him or not, he told
them in the most sublime form, words that were seared into the hearts
and minds of his listeners that Mary the mother of Jesus, a Jewess,
was chosen above the women of all nations. Not his own mother, nor his
wife nor his daughter, nor any other Arab woman, but a Jewess! Can one
explain this? Because to everyone his own mother or wife, or daughters
would come before other women.

Why would the prophet of Islam honor a woman from his opposition! and
a Jewess at that! belonging to a race which had been looking down upon
his people for three thousand years? Just as they still look down upon
their Arab brethren today."

Sarah and Hagar

The Jews learn, from the Bible, that their father, Abraham, had two
wives Sarah and Hagar. They say that they are the children of Abraham
through Sarah his legitimate wife; that their Arab brethren have
descended through Hagar, a "bondwoman", and that as such, the Arabs
are an inferior breed.

Will anyone please explain the anomaly as to why Muhammed, salla Allah
u alihi wa sallam, if he is the author, chose this Jewess for such
high honor? The answer is simple, he had no choice he had no right to
speak of his own desire. "It is no less than an inspiration sent down
to him." (53:4)

The Chapter of Maryam

There is a Chapter in the Holy Quran, named Surat u Maryam "Chapter
Mary", named in honor of Mary the mother of Jesus Christ, peace and
blessings of Allah be upon him; again, such an honor is not to be
found given to Mary in the Christian Bible. Out of the 66 books of the
Protestants and 73 of the Roman Catholics, not one is named after Mary
or her son. You will find books named after Matthew, Mark, Luke, John,
Peter, Paul and two score more obscure names, but not a single one is
that of Mary!

If Muhammed, salla Allah u alihi wa sallam, was the author of the Holy
Quran, then he would not have failed to include in it with Mary, the
mother of Jesus, his own mother Aamina, his dear wife Khadija, or his
beloved daughter Fatima. But No! No! This can never be. The Quran is
not his handiwork!.

Chapter Four : The Good News

" 'Behold!' the angels said: 'O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings
of a word from him: his name will be Jesus, the son of Mary; held in
honor in this world and the hereafter; and (of the company of) those
nearest to Allah." (3:45)

"Nearest to God," not physically nor geographically, but spiritually.
Compare this with "And (Jesus) sat on the right hand of God." (Mark
16:19). The bulk of Christendom has misunderstood this verse as well
as many others in the Bible. They imagine the Father (God) sitting on
a throne, a glorified chair, and His Son, Jesus, sitting on His right
hand side. Can you conjure up the picture? If you do, you have strayed
from the true knowledge of God. He is no old Father Christmas. He is
beyond the imagination of the mind of man. He exists. He is real, but
He is not like anything we can think of, or imagine.

In eastern languages "right hand" meant a place of honor, which the
Holy Quran more fittingly describes as "In the company of those
nearest to Allah." The above verse confirms that Jesus is the Christ.
and that he is the Word which God bestowed upon Mary. Again, the
Christian reads into these words, a meaning which they do not carry.
They equate the word "Christ" with the idea of a god-incarnate; and
the "Word" of God to be God.

"Christ" Not a Name

The word "Christ" is derived from the Hebrew word Messiah, Arabic
Maseeh. Root word masaha, meaning "to rub", "to massage", "to anoint".
Priests and kings were anointed when being consecrated to their
offices. But in its translated Grecian form, "Christ" seems unique:
befitting Jesus only.

Christians like to translate names into their own language; like
Cephas to "Peter" , Messiah to "Christ". How do they do that? Very
easily. Messiah in Hebrew means "Anointed". The Greek word for
anointed is Christos. Just lop off the 'os' from Christos, and you are
left with "Christ"; a unique name!

Christos means "Anointed", and anointed means appointed in its
religious connotation. Jesus, peace and blessing be upon him, was
appointed (anointed) at his baptism by John the Baptist, as God's
Messenger. Every prophet of God is so anointed or appointed. The Holy
Bible is replete with the "anointed" ones. In the original Hebrew, he
was made a Messiah. Let us keep to the English translation "anointed."

Not only were prophets and priests and kings anointed (Christos-ed),
but horns, and cherubs and lamp-posts also.

"I am the God of Bethel, where you anointed a pillar ..." (Genesis
31:13)

"If the priest that is anointed do sin ..." (Leviticus 4:3)

"And Moses... anointed the tabernacle and all things that was
therein..." (Leviticus 8:100)

"..the Lord shall...exalt the horn of his anointed" (I Samuel 2:10)

"Thus saith the Lord to his anointed to Cyrus..." (Isaiah 45:1)

"Thou art the anointed cherub..." (Ezekiel 28:14)

There are an hundred more such references in the Holy Bible. Every
time you come across the word "anointed" in your Bible, you can take
it that that word would be christos in the Greek translations, and if
you take the same liberty with the word that the Christians have done,
you will have Christ Cherub, Christ Cyrus, Christ Priest and Christ
Pillar, ...etc.

Some Titles Exclusive

Although, every prophet of God is an anointed one of God, a Messiah,
the title Maseeh or Messiah, or its translation "Christ" is
exclusively reserved for Jesus, the son of Mary, in both Islam and in
Christianity. This is not unusual in religion. There are certain other
honorific titles which may be applied to more than one prophet, yet
being made exclusive to one by usage: like "Rasulullah", meaning
"Messenger of God", which title is applied to both Moses (19:51) and
Jesus (61:6) in the Holy Quran. Yet "Rasullullah" has become
synonymous only with Muhammad, the prophet of Islam, among Muslims.

Every prophet is indeed a "Friend of God", but its Arabic equivalent
"Khalillullah" is exclusively associated with Father Abraham. This
does not mean that the others are not God's friends. "Kaleemullah",
meaning "One who spoke with Allah" is never used for anyone other than
Moses, yet we believe that God spoke with many of His messengers,
including Jesus and Muhammed, may the peace and blessings of God be
upon all His servants. Associating certain titles with certain
personages only, does not make them exclusive or unique in any way. We
honor all in varying terms.

Whilst the good news was being announced (verse 45 above) Mary was
told that her unborn child will be called Jesus, that he would be the
Christ, a "Word" from God, and that...

"He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. And he
shall be (of the company) of the righteous." (3:46)

"At length she brought the (babe) to her people carrying him. They
said: 'O Mary! truly a strange thing has thou brought!'. 'O sister of
Aaron!, thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman
unchaste!' " (The Holy Quran 19:27-28)

Jews Amazed

There is no Joseph the carpenter here. The circumstances being
peculiar, Mary the mother of Jesus had retired herself to some remote
place in the East (19:16). After the birth of the child she returns.

A. Yusuf Ali, comments in his popular English translation of the
Quran:

"The amazement of the people knew no bounds. In any case they were
prepared to think the worst of her, as she had disappeared from her
kin for some time. But now she comes, shamelessly parading a babe in
her arms! How she had disgraced house of Aaron, the fountain of
priesthood!

"Sister of Aaron": Mary is reminded of her high lineage and the
unexceptionable morals of her father and mother. How, they said, she
had fallen, and disgraced the name of her progenitors!

What could Mary do? How could she explain? Would they, in their
censorious mood accept her explanation? All she could do was to point
to the child, who, she knew, was no ordinary child. And the child came
to her rescue. By a miracle he spoke, defended his mother, and
preached to an unbelieving audience."

Allah azza wa jall says in the Quran:

"But she pointed to the babe. They said: 'How can we talk one who is a
child in the cradle?' He (Jesus) said: 'I am indeed a servant of Allah
(God) : He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet: 'and He
hath made me blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me prayer
and charity as long as I live. '(He hath made me) kind to my mother,
and not overbearing or unblest; 'So Peace is on me the day I was born,
the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life
again)'!" (19:29-33)

His First Miracle(s)

Thus Jesus, peace and blessings be upon him, defended his mother from
the grave calumny and innuendoes of her enemies. This is the very
first miracle attributed to Jesus in the Holy Quran that, he spoke as
an infant from his mother's arms. Contrast this with his first miracle
in the Christian Bible which occurred when he was over thirty years of
age:

"And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the
mother of Jesus was there: And both Jesus was called, and his
disciples, to the marriage. And when they wanted wine, the mother of
Jesus saith unto him, they have no wine. Jesus saith unto her, 'Woman,
what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.' His mother
saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it. And
there were set there six water pots of stone, after the manner of the
purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece. Jesus
saith unto them, Fill the water pots with water. And they filled them
up to the brim. And he saith unto them, Draw out now, and bear unto
the governor of the feast. And they bare it. When the ruler of the
feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it
was: (but the servants which drew the water knew;) the governor of the
feast called the bridegroom, And saith unto him, Every man at the
beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then
that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until
now." (John 2:110)

Since this miracle, wine has flowed like water in Christendom. Many
reason that what was good for the Master is good enough for them.
Jesus was no "kill-joy" they say. Didn't he make good potent wine,
that even those "well drunk", those whose senses had been dulled could
make out the difference ? "That the best was kept for the last.". This
was no pure grape juice. It was the same wine that, according to the
Christian Bible, enabled the daughters of Lot to seduce their father
(Genesis 19:32-33).It was the same wine which the Christian is advised
to eschew in Ephesians 5:18 - "And be not drunk with wine..."

It is that innocent (?) 1% potency that eventually leads millions down
into the gutter. America has 10 million drunkards in the midst of 70
million "born-again" Christians! The Americans call their drunkards
"Problem Drinkers". In South Africa, they are called "Alcoholics";
drunkard is too strong a word for people to stomach.

But the Prime Minister of Zambia, Dr. Kenneth Kaunda, does not
hesitate to call a spade a spade. He says, "I am not prepared to lead
nation of drunkards", referring to his own people who drink
intoxicants.

Whether the water "blushed" or not "seeing" Jesus, we cannot blame him
or his disciples for the drinking habits of his contemporaries. For he
had truly opined, "have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot
bear them now" (John 16:12). Mankind had not reached the stage of
receiving the whole Truth of Islam. Did he not also say "You cannot
put new wine into old bottles"? (Matthew 9:17).

"Mother" or "Woman"?

According to St. John, in the fourth verse above, describing the
marriage feast at Cana, we are told that Jesus, peace and blessings be
upon him, behaved insolently towards his mother. He calls her "woman,"
and to rub more salt into the wound he is made to say "what have I to
do with thee?" What connection is there between you and me, or what
have I got to do with you? Could he have forgotten that this very
"woman" had carried him for nine months, and perhaps suckled him for 2
years, and had borne endless insults and injuries on account of him?
Is she not his mother? Is there no word in his language for "mother"?

Strange as it may seem, that while the missionaries boast about their
master's humility, meekness and long-suffering, they call him the
"Prince of Peace" and they sing that "he was led to the slaughter like
a lamb, and like a sheep who before his shearer is dumb, he opened not
his mouth", yet they proudly record in the same breath, that he was
ever ready with invectives for the elders of his race, and was always
itching for a showdown i.e. if their records are true:

"Ye hypocrites!"

"Ye wicked and adulterous generation!"

"Ye whited sephulcres!"

"Ye generation of vipers!"

and now to his mother: "Woman..."

Jesus Defended

Muhammed, salla Allah u alihi wa sallam, the Messenger of God, is made
to absolve Jesus from the false charges and calumnies of his enemies.

"And He (God Almighty) hath made me (Jesus) kind to my mother, and not
overbearing or unblest" (19:31).

On receiving the good news of the birth of a righteous son Mary
responds:

"She said: 'O My Lord! how shall I have a son, when no man hath
touched me?"

The angel says in reply:

"He said: 'Even so: Allah (God) createth what He willeth: when He hath
decreed a matter He but sayth o it 'Be,' and it is! And Allah (God)
will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Torah (Law) and the
Gospel," (3:47-48).

Chapter Five : Quranic and Biblical Versions

Meeting the Reverend

I was visiting the "Bible House" in Johannesburg. Whilst browsing
through the stacks of Bibles and religious books, I picked up an
Indonesian Bible and had just taken in hand a Greek - English New
Testament, a large, expensive volume. I had not realized that I was
being observed by the supervisor of the Bible House. Casually, he
walked up to me. Perhaps my beard and my Muslim headgear were an
attraction and a challenge? He inquired about my interest in that
costly volume. I explained that as a student of comparative religion,
I had need for such a book. He invited me to have tea with him in his
office. It was very kind of him and I accepted.

Over the cup of tea, I explained to him the Muslim belief in Jesus,
peace and blessings of Allah be upon him. I explained to him the high
position that Jesus occupied in the House of Islam. He seemed
skeptical about what I said. I was amazed at his seeming ignorance,
because only retired Reverend gentlemen can become Supervisors of
Bible Houses in South Africa. I began reciting from verse 42 of
chapters 3 of the Holy Quran:

"'Behold!' The angels said: 'O Mary, Allah hath chosen thee...'"

I wanted the Reverend to listen, not only to the meaning of the Quran,
but also to the music of its cadences when the original Arabic was
recited. Rev. Dunkers (for that was his name) sat back and listened
with rapt attention to "Allah's Words".

When I reached the end of verse 49, the Reverend commented that the
Quranic message was like that of his own Bible. He said, he saw no
difference between what he behaved as a Christian, and what I had read
to him. I said: "that was true". If he had come across these verses in
the English language alone without their Arabic equivalent, side by
side, he would not have been able to guess in a hundred years that he
was reading the Holy Quran. If he were a Protestant, he would have
thought that he was reading the Roman Catholic Version, if he had not
seen one, or the Jehovah's Witness Version or the Greek Orthodox
Version, or the hundred and one other versions that he might not have
seen; but he would never have guessed that he was reading the Quranic
version.

The Christian would be reading here, in the Quran, everything he
wanted to hear about Jesus, but in a most noble, elevated and sublime
language. He could not help being moved by it.

In these eight terse verses from 42 to 49 we are told:
(a) That Mary, the mother of Jesus, was a virtuous woman, and honored
above the women of all nations.
(b) That all that was being said was God's own Revelation to mankind.
(c) That Jesus was the "Word" of God.
(d) That he was the Christ that the Jews were waiting for.
(e) That God will empower this Jesus to perform miracles even in
infancy.
(f) That Jesus was born miraculously, without any male intervention.
(g) That God will vouchsafe him Revelation.
(h) That he will give life to the dead by God's permission, and that
he will heal those born blind and the lepers by God's permission, ...
etc.

"Chalk and Cheese"

The most fervent Christian cannot take exception to a single statement
or word here. But the difference between the Biblical and the Quranic
narratives is that between "chalk and cheese". "To me they are
identical, what is the difference?" the Reverend asked. I know that in
their essentials both the stories agree in their details, but when we
scrutinize them closely we will discover that the difference between
them is staggering.

Now compare the miraculous conception as announced in verse 47 of the
Holy Quran with what the Holy Bible says:

"Now the birth of Jesus Christ was in this wise: When as his mother
Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, (as husband
and wife) she was found with child of the holy ghost."(Matthew 1:18)

Master Dramatizer

The eminent Billy Graham from the United States of America dramatized
this verse in front of 40,000 people in King Park, Durban, with his
index finger sticking out and swinging his outstretched arm from right
to left, he said: "And the Holy Ghost came and impregnated Mary!" On
the other hand St. Luke tells us the very same thing but less crudely.
He says, that when the annunciation was made, Mary was perturbed. Her
natural reaction was :

"How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?" (Luke 1:34) meaning
sexually.

The Quranic narrative is:

"She said: O my Lord! how shall I have a son when no man hath touched
me?" (3:47) meaning sexually.

In essence there is no difference between these two statements "seeing
I know not a man" and "when no man hath touched me". Both the
quotations have an identical meaning. It is simply a choice of
different words meaning the same thing. But the respective replies to
Mary's plea in the two Books (the Quran and the Bible) are revealing.

The Biblical Version

Says the Bible:

"And the angle answered and said into her : 'The Holy Ghost shall come
upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee" (Luke
1:35)

Can't you see that you are giving the atheist, the skeptic, the
agnostic a stick to beat you with? They may well ask "How did the Holy
Ghost come upon Mary?" "How did the Highest overshadow her?" We know
that literally it does not mean that: that it was an immaculate
conception, but the language used here, is distasteful. Now contrast
this with the language of the Quran:

The Quranic Version

"He said (the angel says in reply): 'Even so: Allah (God) createth
what He willeth: when He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it,
'Be,' and it is!' " (3:47)

This is the Muslim concept of the birth of Jesus. For God to create a
Jesus, without a human father, He merely has to will it. If He wants
to create a million Jesus' without fathers or mothers, He merely wills
them into existence. He does not have to take seeds and transfer them,
like men or animals by contact or artificial insemination . He wills
everything into being by His word of command "Be" and "It is".

There is nothing new in what I am telling you, I reminded the
Reverend. It is in the very first Book of your Holy Bible, Genesis 1:3
"And God said..." What did He say? He said "Be" and "It was". He did
not have to articulate the words. This is our way of understanding the
word "Be", that He willed everything into being.

Choice for His Daughter

"Between these two versions of the birth of Jesus, the Quranic version
and the Biblical version, which would you prefer to give your
daughter ?" I asked the supervisor of the Bible House. He bowed his
head down in humility and admitted "The Quranic Version."

How can "a forgery" or "an imitation", as it is alleged of the Quran,
be better than the genuine, the original, as it is claimed for the
Bible? It can never be, unless this Revelation to Muhammed is what it,
itself, claims to be viz. The pure and holy Word of God! There are a
hundred different tests that the unprejudiced seeker after truth can
apply to the Holy Quran and it will qualify with flying colors to
being a Message from on High.

Like Adam

Does the miraculous birth of Jesus make him a God or a "begotten" son
of God? No! says the Holy Quran:

"The similitude of Jesus before Allah (God) is that of Adam; He
created him from dust then said to him: 'Be', and he was." (3:59)

Yusuf Ali, comments in his notes in the Quran translation:

"After a description of the high position which Jesus occupies as a
prophet in the preceding verses we have a repudiation of the dogma
that he was God, or the son of God, or any thing more than man. If it
is said that he was born without a human father, Adam was also so
born. Indeed Adam was born without either a human father or mother. As
far as our physical bodies are concerned they are mere dust.

In God's sight Jesus was as dust just as Adam was or humanity is. The
greatness of Jesus arose from the divine command 'Be': for after that
he was more than dust a great spiritual leader and teacher"

The logic of it is that, if being born without a male parent entitles
Jesus to being equated with God, then, Adam would have a greater right
to such honor, and this no Christian would readily concede. Thus, the
Muslim is made to repudiate the Christian blasphemy.

Further, if the Christian splits hairs by arguing that Adam was
"created" from the dust of the ground, whereas Jesus was immaculately
"begotten" in the womb of Mary, then let us remind him that, even
according to his own false standards, there is yet another person
greater than Jesus, in his own Bible . Who is this superman?

Paul's Innovation

"For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God...
Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither
beginning of days, nor end of life..." (Hebrews 7:1,3)

Here is a candidate for Divinity itself, for only God Almighty could
possess these qualities. Adam had a beginning (in the garden), Jesus
had a beginning (in the stable); Adam had an end and, claim the
Christians, so had Jesus "and he gave up the ghost". But where is
Melchisedec? Perhaps he is hibernating somewhere like Rip Van Winkel
(a fairy tale character who slept for many ages.)

And what is this "Hebrews"? It is the name of one of the Books of the
Holy Bible, authored by the gallant St. Paul, the self appointed
thirteenth apostle of Christ. Jesus had twelve apostles, but one of
them (Judas) had the Devil in him. So the vacancy had to be filled,
because of the "twelve" thrones in heaven which had to be occupied by
his disciples to judge the children of Israel (Luke 22:30).

Saul was a renegade Jew, and the Christians changed his name to
"Paul", probably because "Saul" sounds Jewish. This St. Paul made such
a fine mess of the teachings of Jesus, peace blessings be upon him,
that he earned for himself the second most coveted position of "The
Most Influential Men of History" in the monumental work of Michael H.
Hart: The 100 or The Top Hundred or the Greatest Hundred in History.
Paul outclasses even Jesus because, according to Michael Hart, Paul
was the real founder of present day Christianity. The honor of
creating Christianity had to be shared between Paul and Jesus, and
Paul won because he wrote more Books of the Bible than any other
single author, whereas Jesus did not write a single word.

Paul needed no inspiration to write his hyperboles here and in the
rest of his Epistles. Did not Hitler's Minister of Propaganda Goebbels
say: "The bigger the lie the more likely it is to be believed'? But
the amazing thing about this exaggeration is that no Christian seems
to have read it. Every learned man to whom I have shown this verse to,
seemed to be seeing it for the first time. They appear dumbfounded, as
described by the fitting words of Jesus:

"...seeing they see not, and hearing they hear not, neither do they
understand." (Matthew 13:13)

The Holy Quran also contains a verse which fittingly describes this
well cultivated sickness:

"Deaf, dumb and blind, will they not return (to the path)." (2:18)

The Sons of God

The Muslim takes strong exception to the Christian dogma that "Jesus
is the only begotten son, begotten not made". This is what the
Christian is made to repeat from childhood in his catechism. I have
asked learned Christians, again and again as to what they are really
trying to emphasize, when they say: "Begotten not made".

They know that according to their own God given (?) records, God has
sons by the tons:

"...Adam, which was the son of God."(Luke 3:38)

"That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair...
And when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they
bare children to them..." (Genesis 6: 2,4)

"...Israel is My son, even My firstborn:" (Exodus 4:22)

"...for I (God) am a Father to Israel, and Ephraim is My
firstborn." (Jeremiah 31:9)

"...the Lord hath said unto me (David): 'Thou art My son: this day
have I begotten thee." (Psalms 2:7)

"For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of
God." (Romans 18:14)

Can't you see that in the language of the Jew, every righteous person,
every Tom, Dick and Harry who followed the Will and Plan of God, was a
"Son of God". It was a metaphorical descriptive term commonly used
among the Jews. The Christian agrees with this reasoning, but goes on
to say: "but Jesus was not like that". Adam was made by God. Every
living thing was made by God, He is the Lord, Cherisher and Sustainer
of all. Metaphorically speaking therefore God is the Father of all.
But Jesus was the "begotten" son of God, not a created son of God ?

Begotten Means "Sired"!

In my forty years of practical experience in talking to learned
Christians, not a single one has opened his mouth to hazard an
explanation of the phrase "begotten not made". It had to be an
American who dared to explain. He said : "It means, sired by God."
"What!?" I exploded : "Sired by God?" "No, no!" he said, "I am only
trying to explain the meaning, I do not believe that God really sired
a son."

The sensible Christian says that the words do not literally mean what
they say. Then why do you say it? Why are you creating unnecessary
conflict between the 1,200,000,000 Christians and a thousand million
Muslims of the world in making senseless statements?

Reason for Objection

The Muslim takes exception to the word "begotten", because begetting
is an animal act, belonging to the lower animal functions of sex. How
can we attribute such a lowly capacity to God? Metaphorically we are
all the children of God, the good and the bad, and Jesus would be
closer to being the son of God than any one of us, because he would be
more faithful to God then any one of us can ever be. From that point
of view he is preeminently the son of God.

Although this pernicious word "begotten" has now unceremoniously been
thrown out of the "Most Accurate" version of the Bible, the Revised
Standard Version (R.S.V.), its ghost still lingers on in the Christian
mind, both black and white. Through its insidious brainwashing the
white man is made to feel superior to his black Christian brother of
the same Church and Denomination. And in turn, the black man is given
a permanent inferiority complex through this dogma.

Brain-washed Inferiority

The human mind can't help reasoning that since the "begotten son" of
an African will look like an African, and that of a Chinaman as a
Chinese, and that of an Indian like an Indian: so the begotten son of
God aught naturally to look like God. Billions of beautiful pictures
and replicas of this "only begotten son of God" are put in peoples
hands. He looks like a European with blonde hair, blue eyes and
handsome features like e one I saw in the "King of Kings" or "The Day
of Triumph" or "Jesus of Nazareth". Remember Jeffrey Hunter? The
"Savior" of the Christian is more like a German than a Jew with his
polly nose. So naturally, if the son is a white man, the father would
also be a white man (God?). Hence the darker skinned races of the
earth subconsciously have the feeling of inferiory ingrained in their
souls as God's "step children". No amount of face creams, skin
lighteners and hair straighteners will erase the inferiority.

God is neither black nor white. He is beyond the imagination of the
mind of man. Break the mental shackles of a Caucasian (white) man-god,
and you have broken the shackles of a permanent inferiority. But
intellectual bondages are harder to shatter: the slave himself fights
to retain them.

Chapter Six : Answer to Christian Dilemmas

"Christ in Islam" is really Christ in the Quran: and the Holy Quran
has something definite to say about every aberration of Christianity.
The Quran absolves Jesus, peace and blessings be upon him, from all
the false charges of his enemies as well as the misplaced infatuation
of his followers. His enemies allege that he blasphemed against God by
claiming Divinity. His misguided followers claim that he did avow
Divinity, but that was not blasphemy because he was God. What does the
Quran say ?

Addressing both the Jews and the Christians, Allah says:

"O People of the Book! commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of
Allah (God) aught but the truth. Christ Jesus son of Mary was (no more
than) a messenger of Allah (God), and His Word, which he bestowed on
Mary, and a Spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah (God) and
His messengers..." (4:171)

Going to Extremes

"O People of the Book" is a very respectful title with which the Jews
and the Christians are addressed in the Holy Quran. In other words,
Allah is saying "O Learned People!", "O People with a Scripture!"
According to their own boast, the Jews and the Christians prided
themselves over the Arabs, who had no Scripture before the Quran. As a
learned people, Allah pulls up both the contending religionists for
going to either extremes as regards the personality of Christ.

The Jews made certain insinuations about the legitimacy of Jesus and
charged him of blasphemy by twisting his words. The Christians read
other meanings into his words; wrench words out of their context to
make him God.

The modern day Christian, the hot - gospeller, the Bible thumper, uses
harsher words and cruder approaches to win over a convert to his
blasphemies.

He says:
(a) "Either Jesus is God or a liar"
(b) "Either Jesus is God or a lunatic"
(c) "Either Jesus is God or an impostor"
These are his words, words culled from Christian literature. Since no
man of charity, Muslim or otherwise, can condemn Christ so harshly as
the Christian challenges him to do, perforce he must keep non-
committal. He thinks he must make a choice between one or the other of
these silly extremes. It does not occur to him that there is an
alternative to this Christian conundrum.

Sensible Alternative

Is it not possible that Jesus is simply what he claimed to be, a
prophet, like so many other prophets that passed away before him? Even
that he is one of the greatest of them, a mighty miracle worker, a
great spiritual teacher and guide - the Messiah!. Why only God or
Lunatic? Is "lunacy" the opposite of "Divinity" in Christianity? What
is the antonym of God? Will some clever Christian answer?

The Quran lays bare the true position of Christ in a single verse,
followed by a note by Yusuf Ali's:

"That he was the son of a woman, Mary, and therefore a man;"
"But a messenger, a man with a mission from Allah (God), and therefore
entitled to honor."
"A Word bestowed on Mary, for he was created by Allah's word 'Be', and
he was;"(3:59).
A spirit proceeding from Allah (God), but not Allah: his life and
mission were more limited than in the case of some other messengers,
though we must pay equal honor to him as a prophet of Allah. The
doctrines of Trinity, equality with God, and sons, are repudiated as
blasphemies. Allah (God) is independent of all needs and has no need
of a son to manage His affairs. The Gospel of John (whoever wrote it)
has put a great deal of Alexandrian Gnostic mysticism round the
doctrine of the Word (Greek, Logos), but it is simply explained
here."
Jesus Questioned

Reproduced below are verses 119 to 121 from the Chapter of Maeda
(chapter 5 of the Quran) depicting the scene of Judgment Day, when
Allah will question Jesus, peace and blessings be upon him, regarding
the misdirected zeal of his supposed followers in worshipping him and
his mother: and his response,

"And behold! Allah will say: 'O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say
unto men, take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah?' He will
say: 'Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say).
Had I said such a thing, Thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou
knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For
Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.

'Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say,
to wit, 'Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness
over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up Thou
wast the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things.

'If Thou dost punish them, they are Thy servant: If Thou dost forgive
them, Thou art the Exalted in power, the Wise.'"
(5:116-118)

Claimed No Divinity

If this is the statement of truth from the All-Knowing, that "Never
said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say, to wit,
'Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord'", then how do the Christians
justify worshipping Jesus?

There is not a single unequivocal statement throughout the Bible, in
all its 66 volumes of the Protestant versions, or in the 73 volumes of
the Roman Catholic versions, where Jesus claims to be God or where he
says "worship me". Nowhere does he say that he and God Almighty "are
one" and "the same person."

The last phrase above "one and the same person" tickles many a "hot-
gospeller" and "Bible-thumper," not excluding the Doctor of Divinity
and the Professor of Theology. Even the new converts to Christianity
have memorized these verses. They are programmed to rattle off verses
out of context, upon which they can hang their faith. The words "are
one" activates the mind by association of memories. "Yes", say the
Trinitarians, the worshippers of three gods in one God, and one God in
three gods, "Jesus did claim to be God!" Where?

Reverend at the Table

I had taken Rev. Morris D.D. and his wife, to lunch at the "Golden
Peacock." While at the table, during the course of our mutual sharing
of knowledge, the opportunity arose to ask, "Where?" And without a
murmur he quoted, "I and my father are one" to imply that God and
Jesus were one and the same person. That Jesus here claims to be God.
The verse quoted was well known to me, but it was being quoted out of
context. It did not carry the meaning that the Doctor was imagining,
so I asked him, "What is the context?"

Choked on "Context"

The Reverend stopped eating and began staring at me. I said, "Why?
Don't you know the context?", "You see, what you have quoted is the
text, I want to know the context, the text that goes with it, before
or after." Here was an Englishman (Canadian), a paid servant of the
Presbyterian Church, a Doctor of Divinity, and it appeared that I was
trying to teach him English. Of course he knew what "context" meant.
But like the rest of his compatriots, he had not studied the sense in
which Jesus had uttered the words.

In my forty years of experience, this text had been thrown at me
hundreds of times, but not a single learned Christian had ever
attempted to hazard a guess as to its real meaning. They always start
fumbling for their Bibles. The Doctor did not have one with him. When
they do start going for their Bibles, I stop them in their stride:
"Surely, you know what you are quoting?", "Surely, you know your
Bible?" After reading this, I hope some "born-again" Christians will
rectify this deficiency. But I doubt that my Muslim readers will ever
come across one in their lifetime who could give them the context.

What is the Context?

It is unfair on the part of the Reverend, having failed to provide the
context, then to ask me, "Do you know the context?" "Of course," I
said. "Then, what is it?" asked my learned friend. I said, "That which
you have quoted is the text of John chapter 10, verse 30. To get at
the context, we have to begin from verse 23 which reads:

23. "and Jesus was in the temple area walking in Solomon's
Colonnade." (John 10:23).
John, or whoever he was, who wrote this story, does not tell us the
reason for Jesus tempting the Devil by walking alone in the lion's
den. For we do not expect the Jews to miss a golden opportunity to get
even with Jesus. Perhaps, he was emboldened by the manner in which he
had literally whipped the Jews single-handed in the Temple, and upset
the tables of the money changers at the beginning of his ministry
(John 2:15).

24. "The Jews gathered around him, saying, "How long will you keep us
in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly." (John 10:24).
They surrounded him. Brandishing their fingers in his face, they began
accusing him and provoking him; saying that he had not put forth his
claim plainly enough, clearly enough. That he was talking ambiguously.
They were trying to work themselves into a frenzy to assault him. In
fact, their real complaint was that they did not like his method of
preaching, his invectives, the manner in which he condemned them for
their formalism, their ceremonialism, their going for the letter of
the law and forgetting the spirit. But Jesus could not afford to
provoke them any further there were too many and they were itching for
a fight.

Discretion is the better part of valor. In a conciliatory spirit,
befitting the occasion:

25. "Jesus answered, I did tell you, but you do not believe. The
miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me,"
26. "but you do not believe because you are not my sheep." (John
10:25-26).
Jesus rebuts the false charge of his enemies that he was ambiguous in
his claims to being the Messiah that they were waiting for. He says
that he did tell them clearly enough, yet they would not listen to
him, but:

27. "My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me."
28. "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can
snatch them out of my hand."
29. "My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one
can snatch them out of my Father's hand.." (John 10:29).
How can anyone be so blind as not to see the exactness of the ending
of the last two verses. But spiritual blinkers are more impervious
than physical defects. He is telling the Jews and recording for
posterity, the real unity or relationship between the Father and the
son. The most crucial verse:

30. "I and the Father are one." (John 10:30).
One in what? In their Omniscience? In their Nature? In their
Omnipotence? No! One in purpose! That once a believer has accepted
faith, the Messenger sees to it that he remains in faith, and God
Almighty also sees to it that he remains in faith. This is the purpose
of the "Father" and the "son" and the "Holy Ghost" and of every man
and every woman of faith. Let the same John explain his Gnostic mystic
verbiage.

"That they all may be one as thou. Father, art in me, and I in thee,
that they also may be one in us..."

"I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in
one..."(John 17:20-22)

If Jesus is "one" with God, and if that "oneness" makes him God, then
the traitor Judas, and the doubting Thomas, and the satanic Peter,
plus the other nine who deserted him when he was most in need are
God(s), because the same "oneness" which he claimed with God in John
10:30, now he claims for all "who forsook him and fled" (Mark 14:50).
All "ye of little faith" (Matthew 8:26). All "O faithless and perverse
generation" (Luke 9:41). Where and when will the Christian blasphemy
end? The expression "I and my Father are one," was very innocent,
meaning nothing more than a common purpose with God. But the Jews were
looking for trouble and any excuse will not do, therefore,

31. "Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him,"
32. "but Jesus said to them, I have shown you many great miracles from
the Father. For which of these do you stone me?"
33. "The Jews answered him, saying : 'For a good work we stone thee
not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest
thyself a God.'" (John 10:31-33).
In verse 24 above the Jews falsely alleged that Jesus was talking
ambiguously. When that charge was ably refuted, they then accused him
of blasphemy which is like treason in the spiritual realm. So they say
that Jesus is claiming to be God "I and the Father are one". The
Christians agree with the Jews in this that Jesus did make such a
claim; but differ in that it was not blasphemy because the Christians
say that he was God and was entitled to own up to his Divinity.

The Christians and the Jews are both agreed that the utterance is
serious. To one as an excuse for good "redemption", and to the other
as an excuse for good "riddance". Between the two, let the poor Jesus
die. But Jesus refuses to co-operate in this game, so:

34. "Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your Law, `I have said
you are gods'?"
35. "If he called them `gods,' to whom the word of God came --and the
Scripture cannot be broken--,"
36. "what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and
sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I
said, `I am God's Son'?" (John 10:34-36).
Why "Your Law"?

He is a bit sarcastic in verse 34, but in any event, why does he say:
"Your Law"? Is it not also his Law? Didn't he say: "Think not that I
am come to destroy the Law of the prophets: I am come not to destroy,
but to fulfill (the Law). For verily I say unto you, till heaven and
earth pass away, one Jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the
Law, till all be fulfilled." (Matthew 5:1718).

"You are Gods"

"You are gods:" He is obviously quoting from the 82nd Psalm , verse 6,
"I have said, ye are gods: and all of you are the children of the most
High."

Jesus, continues: "If he (i.e. God Almighty) called them gods, unto
whom the word of God came (meaning that the prophets of God were
called 'gods') and the scripture cannot be broken..." (John 10:35), in
other words he is saying: "you can't contradict me!" Jesus knows his
Scripture; he speaks with authority; and he reasons with his enemies
that: "If good men, holy men, prophets of God are being addressed as
'gods' in our Books of Authority, with which you find no fault, then
why do you take exception to me? When the only claim I make for myself
is far inferior in our language, viz. 'A son of God' as against others
being called 'gods' by God Himself. Even if I (Jesus) described myself
as 'god' in our language, according to Hebrew usage, you could find no
fault with me." This is the plain reading of Christian Scripture. I am
giving no interpretations of my own or some esoteric meaning to words!

Chapter Seven : "In The Beginning"

"Where does Jesus say: 'I am God,' or 'I am equal to God,' or 'Worship
me'?" I asked the Rev. Morris again.

He took a deep breath and took another try. He quoted the most oft-
repeated verse of the Christian Bible - John 1:1.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the
Word was God."

Please note, these are not the words of Jesus. They are the words of
John (or whoever wrote them). Acknowledged by every erudite Christian
scholar of the Bible as being the words of another Jew, Philo of
Alexandria, who had written them even before John and Jesus were born.
And Philo claimed no divine inspiration for them. No matter what
mystical meaning that Philo had woven around these words (which our
John has plagiarized), we will accept them for what they are worth.

Greek not Hebrew

Since the manuscripts of the 27 Books of the New Testament are in
Greek, a Christian sect has produced its own version and has even
changed the name of this selection of 27 Books to Christian Greek
Scriptures ! I asked the Reverend whether he knew Greek? "Yes," he
said, He had studied Greek for 5 years before qualification. I asked
him what was the Greek word for "God" the first time it occurs in the
quotation "and the Word was With God"? He kept staring, but didn't
answer. So I said, the word was Hotheos, which literally means "The
God".

Since the European (including the North American) has evolved a system
of using capital letters to start a proper noun and small letters for
common nouns, we would accept his giving a capital "G" for God; in
other words Hotheos is rendered "the god" which in turn is rendered
"God".

"Now tell me, what is the Greek word for "God" in the second
occurrence in your quotation - "and the Word was God"? The Reverend
still kept silent. Not that he did not know Greek, or that he had
lied, but he knew more than that; the game was up. I said : "the word
was Tontheos, which means "a god".

According to your own system of translating you aught to have spelt
this word 'God' a second time with a small 'g' i.e. 'god', and not
'God' with a capital 'G'; in other words Tontheos is rendered "a god".
Both of these, "god" or "a god" are correct.

I told the Reverend: "But in 2 Corinthians 4:4 you have dishonestly
reversed your system by using a small 'g' when spelling 'God' "(and
the devil is) the god of this world." The Greek word for "the god" is
Hotheos the same as in John 1:1. "Why have you not been consistent in
your translations ?" "If Paul was inspired to write hotheos the God
for the Devil, why don't you use that capital 'G'?"

And in the Old Testament, the Lord said unto Moses: "See, I have made
thee a god to Pharoah" (Exodus 7:1). "Why do you use a small 'g' for
'God' when referring to Moses instead of a capital 'G' as you do for a
mere word 'Word' - "and the Word was God."?

"Why do you do this? Why do you play fast and loose with the Word of
God?" I asked the reverend. He said, "I didn't do it." I said, "I
know, but I am talking about the vested interests of Christianity, who
are hell-bent to deify Christ, by using capital letters here and small
letters there, to deceive the unwary masses who think that every
letter, every comma and full stop and the capital and small letters
were dictated by God (Capital 'G' here!)."

Chapter Eight : What is Left

Three Topics

It can hardly be expected in a small publication of this nature that
one can deal with all the references about Jesus, peace and blessings
be upon him, interspersed throughout the fifteen different chapters of
the Holy Quran. What we can do is to give a quick glance to the index
page reproduced from the Quran earlier in this letter.

Here we find three significant topics, not dealt with yet in our
discussion:

Not crucified, (4:157).
Message and miracles,(5:113, 19:30-33).
Prophesied Ahmed, (61:6).
Regarding the first topic, "not crucified", I had written a booklet
under the heading "Was Christ Crucified?" some twenty years ago. The
book is presently out of print, and further, it needs updating, for
much water has passed under the bridge since it first saw the light of
day.

As regards the third topic mentioned above, "Prophesied Ahmed", I
propose to write a booklet under the title "Muhammed, salla Allah u
alihi wa sallam, the Natural Successor to Christ" after I have
completed "Was Christ Crucified?", I hope to complete both these
projects soon, Insha Allah! (Arabic: "By the will of Allah").

The Way to Salvation

We are now left with Topic No. 2, "Message and miracles". The message
of Jesus was as simple and straight forward as that of all his
predecessors as well as that of his successor Muhammed, salla Allah u
alihi wa sallam, namely "Believe in God and keep His Commandments".
For the God who inspired His Messengers, is an unvarying God and He is
consistent: He is not the "author of confusion" (1 Corinthian14:33).

A law abiding Jew comes to Jesus seeking eternal life or salvation. In
the words of Matthew:

"And behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing
shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but
one, that is God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the
commandments." (Matthew 19:16-17)

You will agree, that if you or I were that Jew, we would infer from
these words that, according to Jesus, peace and blessings be upon him,
salvation was guaranteed, provided we kept the commandments without
the shedding of any innocent blood. Unless, of course Jesus was
speaking with tongue in cheek; knowing full well that his own
"forthcoming redemptive sacrifice", his "vicarious atonement" (?) for
the sins of mankind, was not many days hence.

Why would Jesus give him the impossible solution of keeping the Law
(as the Christian alleges) when an easier way was in the offing? Or
did he not know what was going to happen, that he was to be
crucified ? Was there not a contract between Father and Son, before
the worlds began, for his redeeming blood to be shed? Had he lost his
memory? No! There was no such fairy tale agreement as far as Jesus was
concerned. He knew that there is only one way to God, and that is, as
Jesus said, "keep the Commandments"!

Miracles, What They Prove

Regarding his miracles: the Holy Quran does not go into any detail
about blind Bartimus or about Lazarus or any other miracle, except
that he (Jesus) defended his mother as an infant in his mother's arms.
The Muslim has no hesitation about accepting the most wondrous of his
miracles - even that of reviving the dead. But that does not make
Jesus a "God" or the begotten "Son of God" as understood by the
Christian.

Miracles do not prove even prophethood, or whether a man is true or
false. Jesus himself said:

"For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall
show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they
shall deceive the very elect."(Matthew 24:24)

If false prophets and false Christs can perform miraculous feats, then
these wonders or miracles do not prove even the geniuses or otherwise,
of a prophet.

John the Baptist, according to Jesus, was the greatest of the
Israelite prophets. Greater than Moses, David, Solomon, Isaiah and
all, not excluding himself: in his own words:

"Verily I say unto you, among them that are born of women there hath
not risen a greater than John the Baptist..." (Matthew 11:11)

Not excluding Jesus: because, was he not born of a woman - Mary?
The Baptist, greater than "all", yet he performed not a single
miracle! Miracles are no standards of judging truth and falsehood.
But in his childishness, the might Christian insists that Jesus is God
because he gave life back to the dead. Will reviving the dead make
others God too? This perplexes him, because he has mentally blocked
himself from the miracles of others who outshine Jesus in his own
Bible. For example, according to his false standard:

Moses is greater than Jesus because he put life back into a dead
stick and transmuted it from the plant kingdom to the animal kingdom
by making it into a serpent (Exodus 7:10).
Elisha is greater than Jesus because the bones of Elisha brought a
man back to life merely by coming into contact with the corpse (2
Kings 13:21).

Need I illustrate to you a catalogue of miracles? But the sickness
persists - "it was God working miracles through His prophets but Jesus
performed them of his own power." Where did Jesus get all his power
from? Ask Jesus, and he will tell us:

Power not His Own

"...All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth." (Matthew
28:18)

"...I cast out devils by the Spirit of God then the kingdom of God is
come unto you." (Matthew 12:28)

"I can of mine own self do nothing " (John 5:30)

"I with the finger of God cast out devils" (Luke 1 1:20)

Borrowed Power

The "power" as he says is not his, "it is given unto me". Given by
whom? By God, of course! Every action, every word he attributes to
God.

Lazarus

But since so much is made of Jesus' mightiest miracle of reviving
Lazarus from the dead, we will analyze the episode as recorded in
John's Gospel. It is astonishing that none of the other Gospel writers
mention Lazarus in any context. However, the story is that Lazarus was
very sick, his sisters Mary and Martha had made frantic calls for
Jesus to come and cure his sickness but he arrived too late, actually
four days after his demise.

He Groaned

Mary wails to Jesus that had he arrived in time, perhaps her brother
would not have died; meaning that if he could heal other peoples'
sicknesses, why would he not have healed her brother, a dear friend of
his. Jesus says that "even now if ye have faith, ye shall see the
glory of god." The condition was that they should have faith. Didn't
he say that faith could move mountains?

He asks to be taken to the tomb. On the way, "he groaned in the
spirit". He was not mumbling; he was pouring out his heart and praying
to God. But while he sobbed so bitterly his words were not audible
enough for people around him to understand. Hence the words "he
groaned". On reaching the grave, Jesus "groaned" again; perhaps, even
more earnestly and God heard his groaning (his prayer), and Jesus
received the assurance that God will fulfill his request. Now, Jesus
could rest assured and command that the stone which was barring the
tomb, be removed so that Lazarus could come back from the dead.
Without that assurance from God, Jesus would have made a fool of
himself.

Avoiding Misunderstanding

Mary thinks of the stink because her brother had been dead for four
days! But Jesus was confident and the stone was removed. Then he
looked up towards heaven and said:

"Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me. And I knew that thou
hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it,
that they may believe that thou hast sent me." (John 11:41-42)

What is all this, play - acting? Why all the drama? Because he know
that these superstitious and credulous people will misunderstand the
source of the miracle. They might take him for "God". Giving life to
the dead is the prerogative of God alone. To make doubly sure, that
his people do not misunderstand, he speaks out loudly that the
"groaning" was actually his crying to God Almighty for help. The
prayer was incoherent as far as the bystanders could discern, but the
Father in heaven had accepted his prayer, viz. "thou hast heard me".

Furthermore, he says, "thou hearest me always"; in other words, every
miracle wrought by him was an answer by God Almighty to his prayer.
The Jews of his day understood the position well, and they "glorified
God", as Matthew tells us of another occasion when the Jews exclaimed
"for giving such power unto men" (Matt. 9:8).

In fact, Jesus gives his reason for speaking loudly. He says, "that
they may believe that thou has sent me." One who is sent is a
messenger, and if he be sent by God, then he is a Messenger of God
i.e. Rasulullah. Jesus is referred to in the Quran asRasulullah
("Messenger of Allah").

Alas, this attempt by Jesus to prevent any misunderstanding, as to who
really performed the miracle, and that he was in fact only a messenger
of God, failed. Christians will not even accept the unambiguous
disavowal of Jesus, nor the testimony of Peter, the "Rock" upon which
Jesus was supposed to build his Church. Peter truly testified:

"Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, A man approved
of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by
him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know. " (Acts 2:22)

Case Not Hopeless

This very same message is repeated by God Almighty in the Holy Quran,
following the annunciation. In verse 49 of chapter 3, Allah makes it
clear that every sign or wonder that Jesus performed was "By Allah's
leave," by God's permission. Jesus says so, Peter says so and God says
so; but the stubborn controversialist will not listen: prejudice,
superstition and credulity die hard. Our duty is simply to deliver the
Message, loud and clear, the rest we leave to God. The case is not
altogether hopeless for Allah tells us in His Holy Book:

"And among them are some who have faith, but most of them are
perverted transgressors." (3:110)

"Among them", meaning among the Jews and the Christians, there are two
types of people; the one group described as people of faith to whom
this book is addressed, and the other as rebellious transgressors. We
must also find ways and means of getting at them. Our literature is
eminently suited to cater for all. Pass them on to your non - Muslim
friends after reading.

Open the Holy Quran and make your Christian friends and acquaintances
to read the verses discussed in this book. Then we can truly
conclude:

"Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary:
(it is) a statement of truth, about which
they (vainly) dispute.

"It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah
(God) that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him!
when He determines a matter, He only says to it,
'Be', and it is.

"Verily Allah is my Lord and your Lord:
Him therefore serve ye: this is a Way that is straight." (19:34-36)

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 2 2007 7:15 am
From: "AllEmailDeletedImmediately"

here's what i know:

my God has a Son name Christ Jesus.

islam's god does not.

therefore they cannot be the same god and they are not, no matter how hard
islam tries to horn in and claim it as so.

allah IS NOT the same god as the God of the hebrew and christians.

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Sunday, December 2, 2007

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