Frugal Living: 25 new messages in 10 topics

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TOPIC: Nephew running with the money
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/edfc5e913ef45ab5?hl=en
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== 1 of 11 ==
Date: Sat, Mar 8 2008 1:15 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

Ronald Raygun <no.spam@localhost.localdomain> wrote
> Rod Speed wrote
>> Logan Shaw <lshaw-usenet@austin.rr.com> wrote
>>> TJ wrote

>>> However, that actually sounds like it applies to the entire
>>> estate (not the amount inherited by a single person),

>> Yes, thats how inheritance tax works.

>>> which thus makes it sound like such a plan to shuffle around the money wouldn't work.

>> It would work if the excess that takes it over the nil rate
>> band is given to the nephew before the individual dies,
>> and so doesnt appear to qualify for any inheritance tax.

> No it would not work, unless the giving was done more than 7 years prior to death.

What I said in the next para.

>> Its less clear if that giving was done before 7 years before death,
>> or whether they didnt bother to declare that so it wouldnt be counted.

> Read the OP again.

No thanks. You dont know that the original post got that detail right.

If it happened exactly as the original post stated, it wouldnt have reduced the inheritance tax due.

> It is quite explicit in stating that the payment
> was made *on* (i.e. after) the mother's death.

See above.

I find it hard to believe that any solicitor got involved with a deliberate
defauding of the tax system, by say not mentioning the liquid assets
'given' to the nephew to reduce the value of the estate to a level at
which no inheritance tax was due, and why it would have been 'given'
to a nephew who wasnt due to inherit anything even if some solicitor
was actually stupid enough to get involved in defrauding the tax system.

Guess its possible that someone decided that the tax authoritys might
not notice it if the nephew got it, but its all looking pretty implausible...

>>> On the other hand, it looks like (and of course IANAL/solicitor either)
>>> you can give money tax-free before death, as long as it's 7 years before.

>> Yes, thats the way it works and what that bit you quoted says.

>>> But that seems a little far-fetched to apply in this situation.

>> Nope, its quite commonly done in a situation where inheritance tax would otherwise apply.

>> And it isnt even illegal to arrange to have it given back later either.

> Yes it is, it would fall under the "gifts with reservation" rules, which
> basically provide that such "temporary" gifts with strings attached
> simply do not qualify for the tax exemption accorded to *real* gifts.

Doesnt make it illegal.

>>> So I'm starting to agree with the people who've said
>>> such a scheme, if anything, wouldn't work anyway,

>> Corse it does as long as the gifting is done 7 years before the death.

> But it wasn't.

You dont know that.

>>> making this (even) more likely to be a troll.

>> Its the sort of thing that does happen in jurisdictions that have that sort of inheritance tax.

>> You can see examples of the shit fight that eventuates in the courts in those jurisdictions.

> Where there has been deliberate collusion to defraud the taxman,
> anyone trying to use the courts in such an internecine wrangle
> would be an idiot, unless they were very confident that they
> could refute any allegations of being part of the collusion.

But there wouldnt be any illegality involved if the
OP mangled the story on when it was 'given'

> It should also be said that it's preposterous to suggest that the
> "family solicitor" would willingly facilitate such an act of evasion,
> unless of course there was something in it for him, and he was
> confident of being able to conceal the crime. No solicitor would be
> daft enough to risk his career

He wouldnt necessarily lose his career over something like that.

> unless the payoff was sufficient to set him up for life.
> A measly few hundred k would hardly qualify.

I personally know one solicitor who did just that. He eventually got caught.

== 2 of 11 ==
Date: Sat, Mar 8 2008 1:18 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

tim (not at home) <tims_new_home@yahoo.co.uk> wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote

>> It would work if the excess that takes it over the nil rate
>> band is given to the nephew before the individual dies,
>> and so doesnt appear to qualify for any inheritance tax.

>> Its less clear if that giving was done before 7 years before death,
>> or whether they didnt bother to declare that so it wouldnt be counted.

> It seems somewhat unlikely that someone would *know* 7 years before a
> person's death, that giving away an amount of money would save on IHT.

Plenty of tax planners do just that sort of thing.

Certainly there is some risk of premature death that means the scheme fails,
but that sort of thing is done in jurisdictions with inheritance tax done that way.

Basically because a substantial amount of tax is saved when it works.

== 3 of 11 ==
Date: Sat, Mar 8 2008 1:22 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

tim (not at home) <tims_new_home@yahoo.co.uk> wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>> tim (not at home) <tims_new_home@yahoo.co.uk> wrote
>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>>>> TJ <TJ@no.not> wrote
>>>>> _ wrote:
>>>>>> Logan Shaw wrote

>>>>>>> To me, the most interesting question to ask about this situation is where the nephew got the idea that it was OK
>>>>>>> to refuse to give someone money that you currently possess but rightfully owe to them.

>>>>>> If they have a "right" to the money, they would/should have expressed it in the contract with which they "lent"
>>>>>> him the money. As is appears from your original post, they gifted him the money,

>>>>> In an attempt to avoid paying taxes on it.

>>>>> A VERY important part you left/snipped out, there.

>>>>> Allow me to put it back:

>>>>> "this payment to the nephew was to evade
>>>>> (avoid) paying the full inheritance tax."

>>>> Not necessarily illegal to do that, if the tax law doesnt require
>>>> tax to be paid on what the nephew got.

>>> It does though[1].

>> We'll see...

>>> Unless I misunderstood, the gift was made after death

>> That wouldnt have avoided inheritance tax.

> I know, but that is the point.

Nope. The problem is that the OP isnt likely to be strictly accurate and so the
question arises whether it mangled the story on the gift date, or makes the
unlikely claim that a solicitor got involved in tax fraud, if it isnt just a troll.

== 4 of 11 ==
Date: Sat, Mar 8 2008 1:48 pm
From: Ronald Raygun

Rod Speed wrote:

> Ronald Raygun <no.spam@localhost.localdomain> wrote
>> Rod Speed wrote
>>>
>>> It would work if the excess that takes it over the nil rate
>>> band is given to the nephew before the individual dies,
>>> and so doesnt appear to qualify for any inheritance tax.
>
>> No it would not work, unless the giving was done more than 7 years prior
>> to death.
>
> What I said in the next para.
>
>>> Its less clear if that giving was done before 7 years before death,
>>> or whether they didnt bother to declare that so it wouldnt be counted.
>
>> Read the OP again.
>
> No thanks. You dont know that the original post got that detail right.
>
> If it happened exactly as the original post stated, it wouldnt have
> reduced the inheritance tax due.

Well, we're agreed, then.

>> It is quite explicit in stating that the payment
>> was made *on* (i.e. after) the mother's death.
>
> See above.
>
> I find it hard to believe that any solicitor got involved with a
> deliberate defauding of the tax system,

So do I.

> Guess its possible that someone decided that the tax authoritys might
> not notice it if the nephew got it, but its all looking pretty
> implausible...

Indeed. It's a routine requirement of probate court to require the
executor(s) to provide certificates issued by the banks of balances
*at date of death*, and therefore any funds sitting in the deceased
accounts then, but disposed of later, could not escape the court's
attention.

>>> And it isnt even illegal to arrange to have it given back later either.
>
>> Yes it is, it would fall under the "gifts with reservation" rules, which
>> basically provide that such "temporary" gifts with strings attached
>> simply do not qualify for the tax exemption accorded to *real* gifts.
>
> Doesnt make it illegal.

It isn't illegal for the deceased to make loans. It may well not even
be illegal for the deceased executors to make loans out of the deceased's
estate before probate has been granted (but certainly highly dubious).
But it certainly would be illegal to mis-state the value of the deceased's
estate by excluding the value of any such loans.

>>>> So I'm starting to agree with the people who've said
>>>> such a scheme, if anything, wouldn't work anyway,
>
>>> Corse it does as long as the gifting is done 7 years before the death.
>
>> But it wasn't.
>
> You dont know that.

We can only go by what the OP actually stated.

>> Where there has been deliberate collusion to defraud the taxman,
>> anyone trying to use the courts in such an internecine wrangle
>> would be an idiot, unless they were very confident that they
>> could refute any allegations of being part of the collusion.
>
> But there wouldnt be any illegality involved if the
> OP mangled the story on when it was 'given'

Er, you don't know that. :-)

>> It should also be said that it's preposterous to suggest that the
>> "family solicitor" would willingly facilitate such an act of evasion,
>> unless of course there was something in it for him, and he was
>> confident of being able to conceal the crime. No solicitor would be
>> daft enough to risk his career
>
> He wouldnt necessarily lose his career over something like that.

Yes he would. A solicitor found guilty of participation in fraud
would forever lose the right to work as a solicitor.

>> unless the payoff was sufficient to set him up for life.
>> A measly few hundred k would hardly qualify.
>
> I personally know one solicitor who did just that. He eventually got
> caught.

Well, as it happens, I too personally know a solicitor who "borrowed"
funds from a dead client and was caught. He was struck off for
professional misconduct, and spent time in prison. But at least he
didn't do it at someone else's behest.

I suppose a solicitor who was known to be in financial difficulties
could be exploited by crooked clients, but it would, I think, be rare
to find such a solicitor, since, despite exceptions, they are generally
pretty well paid.

== 5 of 11 ==
Date: Sat, Mar 8 2008 1:54 pm
From: Mikey

johnclayton_____ wrote:
> A friend who is normally resident in the U.K., on the recent death of his
> mother in Scotland arranged with his two sisters and the family solicitor
> (in Scotland) to pay £100,000 to his nephew to 'reduce' the inheritence tax
> they would have to pay because of the value of the mother's house.
>
> It was made clear to the Nephew by the mother's three children that this
> money was *not permanently* given to him, and that he was expected to pay it
> back at a later date.
>
> This understanding that he would pay it back, was also made clear to the
> solicitor in Scotland who 'arranged' the transaction. The solicitor also
> knew that this payment to the nephew was to *evade* (avoid) paying the full
> inheritance tax.
>
> Surprise, surprise... the Nephew does not want to pay the money back. He is
> now turning nasty and unco-operative. What advice might it possible
> to give in this situation to try to recover some of this *stolen* money?
> Thanks.
>
>
>
>
>
>
Fair play tae the lad, it was their own bloody fault, if i was the
nephew viva las vegas yeeeeehaaaawwww

== 6 of 11 ==
Date: Sat, Mar 8 2008 2:57 pm
From: Charles Ellson

On Sun, 9 Mar 2008 05:51:20 +1100, "Rod Speed"
<rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:

>TJ <TJ@no.not> wrote:
>> Rod Speed wrote:
>>
>>> TJ <TJ@no.not> wrote:
>>>> Logan Shaw wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> johnclayton_____ wrote:
>>>>>> A friend who is normally resident in the U.K., on the recent death
>>>>>> of his mother in Scotland arranged with his two sisters and the
>>>>>> family solicitor (in Scotland) to pay £100,000 to his nephew to
>>>>>> 'reduce' the inheritence tax they would have to pay because of the
>>>>>> value of the mother's house. It was made clear to the Nephew by
>>>>>> the mother's three children that
>>>>>> this money was *not permanently* given to him, and that he was
>>>>>> expected to pay it back at a later date.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This understanding that he would pay it back, was also made clear
>>>>>> to the solicitor in Scotland who 'arranged' the transaction. The
>>>>>> solicitor also knew that this payment to the nephew was to *evade*
>>>>>> (avoid) paying the full inheritance tax.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Surprise, surprise... the Nephew does not want to pay the money
>>>>>> back. He is now turning nasty and unco-operative. What advice
>>>>>> might it possible to give in this situation to try to recover some
>>>>>> of this *stolen*
>>>>>> money?
>>>>>
>>>>> To me, the most interesting question to ask about this situation is
>>>>> where the nephew got the idea that it was OK to refuse to give
>>>>> someone money that you currently possess but rightfully owe to
>>>>> them.
>>>>
>>>> Don't know how it works in the UK, but if the same thing happened in
>>>> the US I doubt he would "rightfully" owe them a dime. (Morally
>>>> would be a different issue) Most likely he got the idea from the
>>>> family. They knowingly involved him in a scheme to fuck the
>>>> government out of inheritance tax, so he took a page out of their
>>>> book, and in the end, decided to fuck the relatives as well as the
>>>> government. IANAL, but I think this would come under the "clean
>>>> hands" rule of law which dictates that you can't sue anybody to
>>>> recover ill-gotten gains. They certainly can't go after the nephew for the money without
>>>> exposing their own guilt in trying to avoid taxes.
>>>>
>>>> I would think if the relatives have cause of action against ANYONE,
>>>> it would be the "Solicitor" who assisted in creating the scam. But
>>>> again, IANAL (I am not a lawyer) and even THAT would cause them to
>>>> expose themselves as crooks.
>>>>
>>>> Bottom line IMO,
>>>>
>>>> Nephew: + 100K
>>>> Relatives: 0
>>>>
>>>> Either that, or EVERYBODY goes to jail. :-)
>>>
>>> It isnt a jailable offense there.
>>
>> OK. Then EVERYBODY pays a fine? :-)
>
>Nope, it would be very difficult to prove beyound reasonable doubt
>that the nephew had knowingly taken part in any crime. So he'd
>almost certainly get off scott free, and would get to keep the money.
>
From the details given, it sounds very much like the nephew knows what
he has done. Whether or not he knows it might be illegal is a
different matter as ignorance of the law is in general not accepted as
a defence. The potential loser is the Crown and their agents, HMRC,
are not well known for letting people get away with money; in this
case they would probably just ensure that their lawyer is bigger than
his in a civil action against him.

== 7 of 11 ==
Date: Sat, Mar 8 2008 3:00 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

Ronald Raygun <no.spam@localhost.localdomain> wrote
> Rod Speed wrote
>> Ronald Raygun <no.spam@localhost.localdomain> wrote
>>> Rod Speed wrote

>>>> It would work if the excess that takes it over the nil rate
>>>> band is given to the nephew before the individual dies,
>>>> and so doesnt appear to qualify for any inheritance tax.

>>> No it would not work, unless the giving was done more than 7 years prior to death.

>> What I said in the next para.

>>>> Its less clear if that giving was done before 7 years before death,
>>>> or whether they didnt bother to declare that so it wouldnt be counted.

>>> Read the OP again.

>> No thanks. You dont know that the original post got that detail right.

>> If it happened exactly as the original post stated,
>> it wouldnt have reduced the inheritance tax due.

> Well, we're agreed, then.

Nope, not on the other possibility, that it was deliberate tax fraud and
that what the nephew got happened after death and was done just so
the value of the estate was below the level at which inheritance tax applys.

>>> It is quite explicit in stating that the payment
>>> was made *on* (i.e. after) the mother's death.

>> See above.

>> I find it hard to believe that any solicitor got involved
>> with a deliberate defauding of the tax system,

> So do I.

On the other hand, there are plenty involved in schemes designed
to minimise tax, plenty of which fly very close to the wind legally.

>> Guess its possible that someone decided that the tax authoritys might
>> not notice it if the nephew got it, but its all looking pretty implausible...

> Indeed. It's a routine requirement of probate court to require the
> executor(s) to provide certificates issued by the banks of balances
> *at date of death*, and therefore any funds sitting in the deceased
> accounts then, but disposed of later, could not escape the court's attention.

That doesnt mean that no one ever does stuff like that tho.

In fact that might be another area where the OP mangled the story and it
might not have been done with any knowledge by the solicitor involved etc.

>>>> And it isnt even illegal to arrange to have it given back later either.

>>> Yes it is, it would fall under the "gifts with reservation" rules, which
>>> basically provide that such "temporary" gifts with strings attached
>>> simply do not qualify for the tax exemption accorded to *real* gifts.

>> Doesnt make it illegal.

> It isn't illegal for the deceased to make loans.

It isnt necessarily a loan. It can also just be a gift with an agreement to give it back again later.

> It may well not even be illegal for the deceased executors to make loans out of the
> deceased's estate before probate has been granted (but certainly highly dubious).

Yes, but thats just as true of the worst of the attempts to drive a truck thru the tax law.

> But it certainly would be illegal to mis-state the value of the
> deceased's estate by excluding the value of any such loans.

Not if the solicitor wasnt actually aware of that aspect, contrary to what the OP stated.

>>>>> So I'm starting to agree with the people who've said
>>>>> such a scheme, if anything, wouldn't work anyway,

>>>> Corse it does as long as the gifting is done 7 years before the death.

>>> But it wasn't.

>> You dont know that.

> We can only go by what the OP actually stated.

We can also consider what the OP may have mangled/misstated.

>>> Where there has been deliberate collusion to defraud the taxman,
>>> anyone trying to use the courts in such an internecine wrangle
>>> would be an idiot, unless they were very confident that they
>>> could refute any allegations of being part of the collusion.

>> But there wouldnt be any illegality involved if the
>> OP mangled the story on when it was 'given'

> Er, you don't know that. :-)

Yes I do if for example the gift had happened 7 years or more before the death.

The main question is why that wouldnt have been to those due to inherit tho.

>>> It should also be said that it's preposterous to suggest that
>>> the "family solicitor" would willingly facilitate such an act of
>>> evasion, unless of course there was something in it for him,
>>> and he was confident of being able to conceal the crime.
>>> No solicitor would be daft enough to risk his career

>> He wouldnt necessarily lose his career over something like that.

> Yes he would.

No he wouldnt.

> A solicitor found guilty of participation in fraud
> would forever lose the right to work as a solicitor.

It aint as black and white as that.

Most obviously when he had been mislead himself.

And he wouldnt necessarily be stuck off forever
either even if he had been deliberately involved.

There's been plenty of examples of tax avoidance schemes that havent
seen any career penaltys for the legals involved when it comes unstuck.

>>> unless the payoff was sufficient to set him up for life.
>>> A measly few hundred k would hardly qualify.

>> I personally know one solicitor who did just that. He eventually got caught.

> Well, as it happens, I too personally know a solicitor who
> "borrowed" funds from a dead client and was caught. He
> was struck off for professional misconduct, and spent time
> in prison. But at least he didn't do it at someone else's behest.

So your claim that a solicitor would only ever do that if he
was certain to set himself up for life is clearly just plain wrong.

> I suppose a solicitor who was known to be in financial
> difficulties could be exploited by crooked clients,

Corse they can be.

> but it would, I think, be rare to find such a solicitor, since,
> despite exceptions, they are generally pretty well paid.

Pigs arse they are with such minor matters.

And there are plenty who are just financially incompetant
and get themselves into difficultys just because of that too.

And plenty who do get involved in dubious transactions when those
who benefit from the transactions are known to them personally too.

Some are just fools who dont agree with that aspect of the law and who
choose to do an end run around the law when its unlikely they will get caught.

We've even had a senior judge who was stupid enough to lie about who was
driving his car when he got caught by a speed camera, just to avoid the fine
which only hundreds of bucks. Did that more than once too. And got caught.

We'll never know how many have been equally stupid and never got caught.

== 8 of 11 ==
Date: Sat, Mar 8 2008 3:07 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

Charles Ellson <charles@ellson.demon.co.uk> wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>> TJ <TJ@no.not> wrote
>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>>> TJ <TJ@no.not> wrote
>>>>> Logan Shaw wrote
>>>>>> johnclayton_____ wrote

>>>>>>> A friend who is normally resident in the U.K., on the recent
>>>>>>> death of his mother in Scotland arranged with his two sisters
>>>>>>> and the family solicitor (in Scotland) to pay £100,000 to his
>>>>>>> nephew to 'reduce' the inheritence tax they would have to pay
>>>>>>> because of the value of the mother's house. It was made clear
>>>>>>> to the Nephew by the mother's three children that this money
>>>>>>> was *not permanently* given to him, and that he was
>>>>>>> expected to pay it back at a later date.

>>>>>>> This understanding that he would pay it back, was also
>>>>>>> made clear to the solicitor in Scotland who 'arranged' the
>>>>>>> transaction. The solicitor also knew that this payment to the
>>>>>>> nephew was to *evade* (avoid) paying the full inheritance tax.

>>>>>>> Surprise, surprise... the Nephew does not want to pay the money
>>>>>>> back. He is now turning nasty and unco-operative. What advice
>>>>>>> might it possible to give in this situation to try to recover some of
>>>>>>> this *stolen* money?

>>>>>> To me, the most interesting question to ask about this situation
>>>>>> is where the nephew got the idea that it was OK to refuse to give
>>>>>> someone money that you currently possess but rightfully owe to them.

>>>>> Don't know how it works in the UK, but if the same thing happened
>>>>> in the US I doubt he would "rightfully" owe them a dime. (Morally
>>>>> would be a different issue) Most likely he got the idea from the
>>>>> family. They knowingly involved him in a scheme to fuck the
>>>>> government out of inheritance tax, so he took a page out of their
>>>>> book, and in the end, decided to fuck the relatives as well as the
>>>>> government. IANAL, but I think this would come under the "clean
>>>>> hands" rule of law which dictates that you can't sue anybody to
>>>>> recover ill-gotten gains. They certainly can't go after the
>>>>> nephew for the money without exposing their own guilt in trying
>>>>> to avoid taxes.

>>>>> I would think if the relatives have cause of action against ANYONE,
>>>>> it would be the "Solicitor" who assisted in creating the scam. But
>>>>> again, IANAL (I am not a lawyer) and even THAT would cause them to
>>>>> expose themselves as crooks.

>>>>> Bottom line IMO,

>>>>> Nephew: + 100K
>>>>> Relatives: 0

>>>>> Either that, or EVERYBODY goes to jail. :-)

>>>> It isnt a jailable offense there.

>>> OK. Then EVERYBODY pays a fine? :-)

>> Nope, it would be very difficult to prove beyound reasonable doubt
>> that the nephew had knowingly taken part in any crime. So he'd
>> almost certainly get off scott free, and would get to keep the money.

> From the details given, it sounds very much like the nephew knows what he has done.

Irrelevant to whether he would ever be fined.

> Whether or not he knows it might be illegal is a different matter
> as ignorance of the law is in general not accepted as a defence.

Irrelevant to whether he is ever likely to be convincted, when
the standard of proof required is beyond reasonable doubt.

Its unlikely that they were stupid enough to put it in writing in a formal contract etc.

> The potential loser is the Crown and their agents, HMRC,
> are not well known for letting people get away with money;

They do however have to prove the crime in a court of law before they can fine anyone for
a breach of the law, and that requires proof beyone reasonable doubt for a criminal offence.

> in this case they would probably just ensure that their
> lawyer is bigger than his in a civil action against him.

Thats not what would be required for a FINE as a result of a breach of the law.

== 9 of 11 ==
Date: Sat, Mar 8 2008 4:39 pm
From: "Lou"

"TJ" <TJ@no.not> wrote in message
news:8L-dnRh6Q-NIVU_anZ2dnUVZ_gadnZ2d@comcast.com...
> Logan Shaw wrote:
>
> > johnclayton_____ wrote:
> >> A friend who is normally resident in the U.K., on the recent death
> >> of his mother in Scotland arranged with his two sisters and the
> >> family solicitor (in Scotland) to pay £100,000 to his nephew to
> >> 'reduce' the inheritence tax they would have to pay because of the
> >> value of the mother's house. It was made clear to the Nephew by the
> >> mother's three children that
> >> this money was *not permanently* given to him, and that he was
> >> expected to pay it back at a later date.
> >>
> >> This understanding that he would pay it back, was also made clear to
> >> the solicitor in Scotland who 'arranged' the transaction. The solicitor
> >> also knew that this payment to the nephew was to *evade*
> >> (avoid) paying the full inheritance tax.
> >>
> >> Surprise, surprise... the Nephew does not want to pay the money
> >> back. He is now turning nasty and unco-operative. What advice
> >> might it possible to give in this situation to try to recover some of
> >> this *stolen*
> >> money?
> >
> > To me, the most interesting question to ask about this situation is
> > where the nephew got the idea that it was OK to refuse to give someone
> > money that you currently possess but rightfully owe to them.
>
> Don't know how it works in the UK, but if the same thing happened in the
US
> I doubt he would "rightfully" owe them a dime. (Morally would be a
> different issue) Most likely he got the idea from the family. They
> knowingly involved him in a scheme to fuck the government out of
inheritance
> tax, so he took a page out of their book, and in the end, decided to fuck
> the relatives as well as the government. IANAL, but I think this would
come
> under the "clean hands" rule of law which dictates that you can't sue
> anybody to recover ill-gotten gains.
>
> They certainly can't go after the nephew for the money without exposing
> their own guilt in trying to avoid taxes.

I'm having a little trouble understanding what's going on here. In the US,
it's perfectly OK, even smart, to arrange your affairs in such a way as to
**avoid** taxes. It's not legal to **evade** taxes - engage in illegal
activities to escape paying taxes. Interchanging the terms makes
understanding the description of the situation difficult.

I'm at a loss to see how paying any amount of money to anyone after
someone's death would reduce the value the estate had at the time of death,
and I'd think it was the value at the time of death that would be subject to
inheritance tax.

If the object of the exercise was to evade taxes, it sounds like the nephew
is refusing (conveniently but perhaps properly) to engage in some illegal
activity. It sounds like the uncle and aunts gave him a generous gift of
£100,000 (are there gift taxes in the UK, and did the nephew have to pay
them?) and there's no obligation to return a gift. If the object of the
exercise was to evade taxes and it was arranged by the family solicitor, the
solictor should at the very least be disbarred (or whatever the UK
equivalent is).

>
> I would think if the relatives have cause of action against ANYONE, it
would
> be the "Solicitor" who assisted in creating the scam. But again, IANAL (I
> am not a lawyer) and even THAT would cause them to expose themselves as
> crooks.
>
> Bottom line IMO,
>
> Nephew: + 100K
> Relatives: 0
>
> Either that, or EVERYBODY goes to jail. :-)
>
> [...]
>
>

== 10 of 11 ==
Date: Sat, Mar 8 2008 4:48 pm
From: Charles Ellson

On Sun, 9 Mar 2008 10:07:56 +1100, "Rod Speed"
<rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:

>Charles Ellson <charles@ellson.demon.co.uk> wrote
>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>>> TJ <TJ@no.not> wrote
>>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>>>> TJ <TJ@no.not> wrote
>>>>>> Logan Shaw wrote
>>>>>>> johnclayton_____ wrote
>
>>>>>>>> A friend who is normally resident in the U.K., on the recent
>>>>>>>> death of his mother in Scotland arranged with his two sisters
>>>>>>>> and the family solicitor (in Scotland) to pay £100,000 to his
>>>>>>>> nephew to 'reduce' the inheritence tax they would have to pay
>>>>>>>> because of the value of the mother's house. It was made clear
>>>>>>>> to the Nephew by the mother's three children that this money
>>>>>>>> was *not permanently* given to him, and that he was
>>>>>>>> expected to pay it back at a later date.
>
>>>>>>>> This understanding that he would pay it back, was also
>>>>>>>> made clear to the solicitor in Scotland who 'arranged' the
>>>>>>>> transaction. The solicitor also knew that this payment to the
>>>>>>>> nephew was to *evade* (avoid) paying the full inheritance tax.
>
>>>>>>>> Surprise, surprise... the Nephew does not want to pay the money
>>>>>>>> back. He is now turning nasty and unco-operative. What advice
>>>>>>>> might it possible to give in this situation to try to recover some of
>>>>>>>> this *stolen* money?
>
>>>>>>> To me, the most interesting question to ask about this situation
>>>>>>> is where the nephew got the idea that it was OK to refuse to give
>>>>>>> someone money that you currently possess but rightfully owe to them.
>
>>>>>> Don't know how it works in the UK, but if the same thing happened
>>>>>> in the US I doubt he would "rightfully" owe them a dime. (Morally
>>>>>> would be a different issue) Most likely he got the idea from the
>>>>>> family. They knowingly involved him in a scheme to fuck the
>>>>>> government out of inheritance tax, so he took a page out of their
>>>>>> book, and in the end, decided to fuck the relatives as well as the
>>>>>> government. IANAL, but I think this would come under the "clean
>>>>>> hands" rule of law which dictates that you can't sue anybody to
>>>>>> recover ill-gotten gains. They certainly can't go after the
>>>>>> nephew for the money without exposing their own guilt in trying
>>>>>> to avoid taxes.
>
>>>>>> I would think if the relatives have cause of action against ANYONE,
>>>>>> it would be the "Solicitor" who assisted in creating the scam. But
>>>>>> again, IANAL (I am not a lawyer) and even THAT would cause them to
>>>>>> expose themselves as crooks.
>
>>>>>> Bottom line IMO,
>
>>>>>> Nephew: + 100K
>>>>>> Relatives: 0
>
>>>>>> Either that, or EVERYBODY goes to jail. :-)
>
>>>>> It isnt a jailable offense there.
>
>>>> OK. Then EVERYBODY pays a fine? :-)
>
>>> Nope, it would be very difficult to prove beyound reasonable doubt
>>> that the nephew had knowingly taken part in any crime. So he'd
>>> almost certainly get off scott free, and would get to keep the money.
>
>> From the details given, it sounds very much like the nephew knows what he has done.
>
>Irrelevant to whether he would ever be fined.
>
>> Whether or not he knows it might be illegal is a different matter
>> as ignorance of the law is in general not accepted as a defence.
>
>Irrelevant to whether he is ever likely to be convincted, when
>the standard of proof required is beyond reasonable doubt.
>
>Its unlikely that they were stupid enough to put it in writing in a formal contract etc.
>
>> The potential loser is the Crown and their agents, HMRC,
>> are not well known for letting people get away with money;
>
>They do however have to prove the crime in a court of law before they can fine anyone for
>a breach of the law, and that requires proof beyone reasonable doubt for a criminal offence.
>
They don't need to use the criminal prosecution route to get the
money. A civil pursuit only requires them to tip the balance of
probability in their favour.

>> in this case they would probably just ensure that their
>> lawyer is bigger than his in a civil action against him.
>
>Thats not what would be required for a FINE as a result of a breach of the law.
>
But it wouldn't stop any civil penalties.

== 11 of 11 ==
Date: Sat, Mar 8 2008 4:53 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

Lou <lpogodajr292185@comcast.net> wrote:
> "TJ" <TJ@no.not> wrote in message
> news:8L-dnRh6Q-NIVU_anZ2dnUVZ_gadnZ2d@comcast.com...
>> Logan Shaw wrote:
>>
>>> johnclayton_____ wrote:
>>>> A friend who is normally resident in the U.K., on the recent death
>>>> of his mother in Scotland arranged with his two sisters and the
>>>> family solicitor (in Scotland) to pay �100,000 to his nephew to
>>>> 'reduce' the inheritence tax they would have to pay because of the
>>>> value of the mother's house. It was made clear to the Nephew by the
>>>> mother's three children that
>>>> this money was *not permanently* given to him, and that he was
>>>> expected to pay it back at a later date.
>>>>
>>>> This understanding that he would pay it back, was also made clear
>>>> to the solicitor in Scotland who 'arranged' the transaction. The
>>>> solicitor also knew that this payment to the nephew was to *evade*
>>>> (avoid) paying the full inheritance tax.
>>>>
>>>> Surprise, surprise... the Nephew does not want to pay the money
>>>> back. He is now turning nasty and unco-operative. What advice
>>>> might it possible to give in this situation to try to recover some
>>>> of this *stolen*
>>>> money?
>>>
>>> To me, the most interesting question to ask about this situation is
>>> where the nephew got the idea that it was OK to refuse to give
>>> someone money that you currently possess but rightfully owe to them.
>>
>> Don't know how it works in the UK, but if the same thing happened in
>> the US I doubt he would "rightfully" owe them a dime. (Morally
>> would be a different issue) Most likely he got the idea from the
>> family. They knowingly involved him in a scheme to fuck the
>> government out of inheritance tax, so he took a page out of their
>> book, and in the end, decided to fuck the relatives as well as the
>> government. IANAL, but I think this would come under the "clean
>> hands" rule of law which dictates that you can't sue anybody to
>> recover ill-gotten gains.
>>
>> They certainly can't go after the nephew for the money without
>> exposing their own guilt in trying to avoid taxes.
>
> I'm having a little trouble understanding what's going on here. In
> the US, it's perfectly OK, even smart, to arrange your affairs in
> such a way as to **avoid** taxes. It's not legal to **evade** taxes
> - engage in illegal activities to escape paying taxes. Interchanging
> the terms makes understanding the description of the situation
> difficult.

> I'm at a loss to see how paying any amount of money to anyone
> after someone's death would reduce the value the estate had at
> the time of death, and I'd think it was the value at the time of
> death that would be subject to inheritance tax.

The obvious way to do that is to get the value of the estate
down to a level at which no inheritance tax is payable.

> If the object of the exercise was to evade taxes, it sounds like the nephew is
> refusing (conveniently but perhaps properly) to engage in some illegal activity.

Nope, he already did that when he accepted the money in the first place.

It isnt illegal to return it now.

> It sounds like the uncle and aunts gave him a generous gift of �100,000

It wasnt theirs to give, and it clearly wasnt a gift.

> (are there gift taxes in the UK,

Nope, not in this case.

> and did the nephew have to pay them?)

Nope, because they arent owed.

> and there's no obligation to return a gift.

There is if it was made clear that it was only a gift to avoid the inheritance tax.

> If the object of the exercise was to evade taxes and it was
> arranged by the family solicitor, the solictor should at the
> very least be disbarred (or whatever the UK equivalent is).

It doesnt work like that with tax avoidance schemes.

>> I would think if the relatives have cause of action against ANYONE,
>> it would be the "Solicitor" who assisted in creating the scam. But
>> again, IANAL (I am not a lawyer) and even THAT would cause them to
>> expose themselves as crooks.
>>
>> Bottom line IMO,
>>
>> Nephew: + 100K
>> Relatives: 0
>>
>> Either that, or EVERYBODY goes to jail. :-)

==============================================================================
TOPIC: What's your monthly grocery spending?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/0abb53d245c656d6?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Sat, Mar 8 2008 1:18 pm
From: "AllEmailDeletedImmediately"

"Jeff" <jeff@spam_me_not.com> wrote in message
news:13t4856m9bijo1f@corp.supernews.com...

> It's a different set of priorities and it's hard not to say that the
> Amish are right. I genuinely like them and admire their devotion to their
> families and their religion. They live by never setting themselves above
> another.

they are right in those priorities, but they're not very generous, at least
to
the english. and i think they're the largest owners of puppy mills here in
pa.
and not much smiling. it took me a while to get one out of my farmer.
actually, it was more like a giggle. i had just come off a string of
grands
being born and happened to say that my kids were breeding like rabbits.

> Well, I've found that not answering the phone promptly when the boss is
> calling leads to big trouble, but it's hard not to say how it's diminished
> our lives. How many people complain about being unintended participants in
> someone else's cell phone call.
>
interesting that your boss thinks he/she can just interrupt your life at
will. unless you're oncall and you get cellphone pay.

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Sat, Mar 8 2008 1:19 pm
From: "AllEmailDeletedImmediately"

"Jeff" <jeff@spam_me_not.com> wrote in message
news:13t4aa24d753k87@corp.supernews.com...
> The Real Bev wrote:
>> Jeff wrote:
>>
>>> How many people complain about being unintended participants in someone
>>> else's cell phone call.
>>
>> I think the solution here is to participate. Ask questions. Offer
>> opinions. Ask to borrow the phone so you can tell the other person
>> exactly what he SHOULD do. Be helpful. Just because you were drafted it
>> doesn't mean you should be mean and resentful.
>
>
> What a concept Bev! I'm going to switch my vote for president to you.
> This is the kind of leadership we need!
>
> Jeff

gotta love bev.

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Sat, Mar 8 2008 2:30 pm
From: Jeff

AllEmailDeletedImmediately wrote:
> "Jeff" <jeff@spam_me_not.com> wrote in message
> news:13t4856m9bijo1f@corp.supernews.com...
>
>> It's a different set of priorities and it's hard not to say that the
>> Amish are right. I genuinely like them and admire their devotion to their
>> families and their religion. They live by never setting themselves above
>> another.
>
> they are right in those priorities, but they're not very generous, at least
> to
> the english.

I suspect this strongly varies. I knew a handful of families and the
ones I was closest to always were more than fair. And happy to see us. I
remember pulling up on one cold snowy day and when I looked toward the
farmhouse, the nearest window was just stuffed with Amish waving at me.

and i think they're the largest owners of puppy mills here in
> pa.
> and not much smiling. it took me a while to get one out of my farmer.
> actually, it was more like a giggle. i had just come off a string of
> grands
> being born and happened to say that my kids were breeding like rabbits.

Ah, bonding!

I think some Amish are definitely more business like than others. I
dealt more with of the ones that were weren't.
>
>> Well, I've found that not answering the phone promptly when the boss is
>> calling leads to big trouble, but it's hard not to say how it's diminished
>> our lives. How many people complain about being unintended participants in
>> someone else's cell phone call.
>>
> interesting that your boss thinks he/she can just interrupt your life at
> will. unless you're oncall and you get cellphone pay.

Well, it was his cellphone! I've since changed that.

Jeff
>
>

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Sat, Mar 8 2008 5:06 pm
From: "AllEmailDeletedImmediately"

"Jeff" <jeff@spam_me_not.com> wrote in message
news:13t64rjbcjvfv3e@corp.supernews.com...
> AllEmailDeletedImmediately wrote:

>> they are right in those priorities, but they're not very generous, at
>> least to the english.
>
> I suspect this strongly varies. I knew a handful of families and the ones
> I was closest to always were more than fair. And happy to see us. I
> remember pulling up on one cold snowy day and when I looked toward the
> farmhouse, the nearest window was just stuffed with Amish waving at me.

fair, yes. friendly, if they know you. not the same as generous.
large window, eh?

>> and not much smiling. it took me a while to get one out of my farmer.
>> actually, it was more like a giggle. i had just come off a string of
>> grands being born and happened to say that my kids were breeding like
>> rabbits.
>
> Ah, bonding!

:) never thought i'd see an amish man in his mid forties giggle. they're
so stern-looking.

> I think some Amish are definitely more business like than others. I
> dealt more with of the ones that were weren't.

they do get friendlier as they get to know you.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Is Buying A Hybrid Really Smart?? Was Re: How are u playing the
gasoline game?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/fbeb9906bdd8972d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Mar 8 2008 2:07 pm
From: Ron Peterson

On Mar 8, 1:00 pm, Patient Guy <sevisen.adam@gmailDOTHEREcom> wrote:

> So what type of owners are really buying these hybrids...people who say
> they are helping the automakers "invest in green technology"? Is this just
> a extra cost being paid to "feel good about being green" or is it abject
> stupidity?

The ones that can afford it are buying the hybrids, especially if they
drive more than average. My sister and her husband both have hybrids
and her husband traded in his BMW for a Prius.

I have been buying American cars, but may switch if I can't find a
decent American hybrid.

Hybrids have much higher trade-in values, lower brake wear, better
stability control, better gas milage, and possibly better
acceleration.

> I will have get some wheels soon, and my net worth is effectively zero upon
> re-patriation (all my net worth is back with my wife and kid overseas). I
> am wondering if I should get something used (pre-owned) for maybe up to
> $5000 or try to get credit on a new vehicle, gas or hybrid...now I am no
> longer convinced the hybrid will pay off for me if I go new.

In your situation, I would buy a used vehicle. Depreciation on a new
vehicle is a killer.

--
Ron

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Mar 8 2008 3:17 pm
From: George Grapman

Ron Peterson wrote:
> On Mar 8, 1:00 pm, Patient Guy <sevisen.adam@gmailDOTHEREcom> wrote:
>
>> So what type of owners are really buying these hybrids...people who say
>> they are helping the automakers "invest in green technology"? Is this just
>> a extra cost being paid to "feel good about being green" or is it abject
>> stupidity?
>
> The ones that can afford it are buying the hybrids, especially if they
> drive more than average. My sister and her husband both have hybrids
> and her husband traded in his BMW for a Prius.
>
> I have been buying American cars, but may switch if I can't find a
> decent American hybrid.
>
> Hybrids have much higher trade-in values, lower brake wear, better
> stability control, better gas milage, and possibly better
> acceleration.
>
>> I will have get some wheels soon, and my net worth is effectively zero upon
>> re-patriation (all my net worth is back with my wife and kid overseas). I
>> am wondering if I should get something used (pre-owned) for maybe up to
>> $5000 or try to get credit on a new vehicle, gas or hybrid...now I am no
>> longer convinced the hybrid will pay off for me if I go new.
>
> In your situation, I would buy a used vehicle. Depreciation on a new
> vehicle is a killer.
>
> --
> Ron
>
In the Bay area hybrids have additional advantage. A single occupant
hybrid can use car pool lanes avoiding both the toll and,more
importantly, the wait.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Earn Money In Your Sleep - No Cost
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/5e55e61e0c02a455?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Mar 8 2008 3:47 pm
From: nagi54

Best Business Opportunity with Google from Home/Cafe
and make big money by the end of every day!

Details at:- http://www.freewebs.com/hsnagi/jobs.htm

==============================================================================
TOPIC: where wholesales the cheapest electronic products?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/10c1a16f2cd7c75c?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Mar 8 2008 3:55 pm
From: Al Bundy

On Mar 8, 12:58 pm, aaaeryuyh...@gmail.com wrote:
> Contact us :
> 7*24 hour On-line service:
> MSN/Email: e-made-ch...@hotmail.com
>
> Hi friends,
> We sell exclusively from Chinese manufacturers who produce
> DJ Equipment, Electric guitars, Game console-> , GPS->,
> Laptops&Notebooks->, Mobile Phone->, Motorcycles, Mp3 & Mp4,
> Photography->, Projector, Road Bikes, TVs & HDTVs->, Watercraft ..
> We can provide you with best quality products at favorable price. Also
> our service is perfect, and the speed of our shipping is very fast.
>
> We have our own warehouse and stores, we have clients all over the
> world, and we have been receiving very high praise from our customers.
>
> If you have some suggestions about our products or our service, please
> tell us, and we would accept and improve. We do appreciate it very
> much. Hope we can cooperate happily in the long term.
>
> Our Belief: Credit is the first, Customers are our God.
> China Huahai International Trade Co., Ltd.

It's not even cheap. I found several items at half the price on a
Google search.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: new converse only 27$
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/6ad1ec31f6f0c735?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Mar 8 2008 3:59 pm
From: Al Bundy

On Mar 8, 6:38 am, cheapestsell...@hotmail.com wrote:
> msn cheapests...@hotmail.com
> Dear my friend
> It is our pleasure to meet you here.
> we are wholesaler sport shoes,clothing,electrons in Fujian of China.
> We are professional and honest wholesaler of all kinds of brand
> sneaks and apparel.the products

When someone has to tell you they are honest, that's the tip-off. They
ain't.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Mar 8 2008 4:33 pm
From: George Grapman

Al Bundy wrote:
> On Mar 8, 6:38 am, cheapestsell...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> msn cheapests...@hotmail.com
>> Dear my friend
>> It is our pleasure to meet you here.
>> we are wholesaler sport shoes,clothing,electrons in Fujian of China.
>> We are professional and honest wholesaler of all kinds of brand
>> sneaks and apparel.the products
>
>
> When someone has to tell you they are honest, that's the tip-off. They
> ain't.

I have walked away from several sales people who have said things like
"let me be honest with you" or "to tell you the truth".
Once we had a new worker at an office. I went outside on a break and
held the elevator for him and he said, "I want you to know that I don't
do any drugs".

==============================================================================
TOPIC: cheap ★ ROLEX ★ omega watches, CHANEL lv gucci dior fendi armani
SUNGLASSES
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/95a27bc2974f5783?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Mar 8 2008 4:58 pm
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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Essential audio! David Duke on a Black President
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/7b2e4404cdf61f7b?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Mar 8 2008 5:08 pm
From: Ted

On Mar 8, 6:37 am, ◄ iamthewitness.com radio ►
<cccccdfgdfgdg...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> http://www.stormfront.org/audio/stormfront_radio-dr_david_duke_and_do...
>
> During this thought provoking broadcast Don and David review the 9/11
> Zionist lies that preceded the Iraq war and discuss the presidential
> campaigns.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Adobe Lovers
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/58f80c0f4ad92718?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Mar 8 2008 5:09 pm
From: She is

Nice place for graphic designers, download pluings, read articles on
adobe products

http://www.adobelover.com

==============================================================================
TOPIC: download for all you need for your iPod.
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/2418daf178324145?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Mar 8 2008 5:39 pm
From: "leedbrooker@googlemail.com"

I came across this, has anyone got any feedback for this?
Ive had a good look over the site review and it looks legit, this is
what it says....

You will find all necessary tools and instructions to be able to
search and download for all you need for your iPod.

We specialise on movie downloads for iPod devices, but as we form part
of the biggest databases network on the Internet mantaining millions
of files alive, you will be able to search and find for virtually
anything. Starter and Advanced members have only access to movies.
Golden and Platinum members have access to everything: Movies, Music,
Screensavers, Wallpapers and much more at http://hubpages.com/hub/Unlimited_ipod_Downloads

If anyone knows of this program let me know

Cheers

Lee

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Saturday, March 8, 2008

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