http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en
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Today's topics:
* What to Do With Newspaper? - 2 messages, 2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/5f28541661165820?hl=en
* The Economic Cost of the Earthquake - 4 messages, 4 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/e41953baa6350be8?hl=en
* Range clock - Disconnect it! - 9 messages, 3 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/3e2a7ad7ec279de4?hl=en
* Poverty in California... - 6 messages, 4 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/df52112e775185a1?hl=en
* Apples - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/3b20db81f878f9e8?hl=en
* Frugal travel JFK to midtown Manhattan - 4 messages, 4 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/65edc10560269528?hl=en
==============================================================================
TOPIC: What to Do With Newspaper?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/5f28541661165820?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Jun 5 2008 11:35 am
From: Vandy Terre
On Wed, 4 Jun 2008 14:25:26 -0700 (PDT), BeaForoni@msn.com wrote:
> The local fishwrap has decided to delivery the paper to me for
>thirteen weeks, FREE! I don't read it as it is also online. The
>coupons value is questionable. I don't have that much fish to wrap. My
>question is; is there anything I can do with all this paper? Can I
>burn it in the fireplace this winter? Is there any value I can get out
>of this stuff?
YMMV, but this has been my experience.
Newspapers go nicely through a paper shredder along with the junk mail.
Shredded paper can be used as a substitute for kitty litter, bed liner for pets
(cats/ dogs/ rabbits/ chickens/ hamsters/ snakes/ mice/ rats), or filler in
compost. Beware: some animals like chickens find shredded paper tasty. No real
harm if the critter eats the paper as long as ample food and water are also
available.
Shredded paper in bags alone or mixed with broken pinecones/ wood chips/ bark/
candle ends/ wax type crayons makes a convenient starter for wood stoves or
fireplaces.
Full sheets of newspaper several layers thick may be used in the garden to
reduce weed growth around vegetables or ornamental plants.
A few layers of newspaper, compare to big city Sunday edition, in an old pillow
case makes an insulated seat for use on the ground, on bleachers or at the
beach.
It is a fire hazard to use untreated paper to improve insulation of the home.
With that in mind, in times of desperate quick fix, newspaper makes cheap, short
term insulation. Wadded in the walls or wadded inside a large set of sweats
with you inside the sweats, newspaper can insulate during an emergency.
I have run dry of ideas or memories for the moment. But last week's coupon rag
is currently serving use as a coaster under my iced drink.
== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Jun 5 2008 3:22 pm
From: "TKM"
<BeaForoni@msn.com> wrote in message
news:2e822ee7-1a40-4daf-8e76-d27c0f941f3a@j33g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
On Jun 4, 2:45 pm, George Grapman <sfgeo...@paccbell.net> wrote:
> BeaFor...@msn.com wrote:
> > The local fishwrap has decided to delivery the paper to me for
> > thirteen weeks, FREE! I don't read it as it is also online. The
> > coupons value is questionable. I don't have that much fish to wrap. My
> > question is; is there anything I can do with all this paper? Can I
> > burn it in the fireplace this winter? Is there any value I can get out
> > of this stuff?
>
> Did they just start dropping it off or did you request it? If it is
> the latter you should read the small type as you may have given them
> permission to bill you after the 13 weeks.
>
> For years I have had the SF Chronicle and the NY Times delivered. The
> Chron seems unable to deliver a dry paper. On many days I got a soggy SF
> paper next to a dry NY Times. I have a home office but recently canceled
> the Chron except for Sunday (the coupons more than cover the cost).I go
> through their website quickly and the next time the world ends I will
> drive to the nearest vending box.
>
> I keep the Times because it is worth the price, I like having
> something to read when riding public transit or going out to lunch and
> there are stories in the print edition that are shorter or do not appear
> on the web site.
>
> I keep the times because I grew up with
No, they did it to the entire neighborhood. I guess I'll stop it soon,
I just thought there was some cool frugal thing to do with all these
dead trees.
Well, if you have a wood-burning fireplace or stove, I remember a DIY
article that suggested wrapping the newspaper tightly in a roll, securing it
with string and then soaking it with water. Then it had to be dried for
some days (weeks maybe?) which then converted the whole mess into a
fireplace log.
I didn't try it
Our daily papers are nicely recycled by the city folks every week and I'm
grateful for that.
TKM
==============================================================================
TOPIC: The Economic Cost of the Earthquake
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/e41953baa6350be8?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Thurs, Jun 5 2008 11:39 am
From: Mark Anderson
In article justsayno@spam.com says...
> They're economic projections, or, as the old quote goes, "You can put all
> the economists on earth end to end, and they'll go in every direction." What
> in heaven's name makes you assume the numbers are "accurate?"
I believe the quote was more like "you can line up all the economists in
the world end to end and they wouldn't reach a conclusion."
== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Thurs, Jun 5 2008 11:42 am
From: "Rod Speed"
PaPaPeng <PaPaPeng@yahoo.com> wrote
> Its pretty impressive the authorities can come up with accurate
> figures on the economic consequences of the Sichuan earthquake.
Nope, they're just plucked out of someone's arse.
> China picks up the pieces
> By Olivia Chung
> June 4, 2008
> http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China_Business/JF04Cb01.html
> HONG KONG - As the death toll from China's May 12, 8.0
> Richter-scale earthquake climbs toward the 70,000 mark,
> with 15 million people rendered homeless,
Those figures arent anything like accurate either.
> companies are struggling to get back on their feet - lamenting
> their lost staff while giving thanks to varying degrees for the
> extent to which their property survived the disaster.
> A 70 billion yuan (US$20 billion) government reconstruction fund
> is underpinning recovery efforts in the stricken southwest Sichuan
> province, with vast amounts of infrastructure requiring attention.
There is no nice tidy 'fund'
> The economic losses will definitely be larger than those caused by the
> once-in-50-years snowstorm that hit central China this year, National
> Bureau of Statistics deputy head Xu Xianchun said in Beijing last week.
Hardly a very surprising observation.
> The impact on economic growth will still be less than 0.1%,
Too early to say that.
> but the disaster will put considerable upward pressure on inflation,
> making it difficult for Beijing to meet its 4.8% full-year target, he said.
Usual waffle.
> And while individual factories can be rebuilt in Sichuan or elsewhere,
> the area's vital tourist industry will be harder to bring back to life.
Duh.
> The quake damaged 1,645 cultural relics in Sichuan, including 148 regarded as precious.
> Direct economic losses caused by property damage, and indirect losses
> caused by business interruption, are expected to reach 500 billion yuan,
Just a round number plucked out of someone's arse.
> BNP Paribas financial analyst Doris Chen wrote in a research report last week.
Chen's arse, clearly.
None of the rest of this mindless waffle worth bothering with.
> The overall impact on the country's economy will be limited due to the
> province accounting for only 4.3% of national gross domestic product,
> said Yi Xianrong, a researcher with the institute of finance and
> banking under the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences. Sichuan, with a
> population of 81.7 million, has a gross domestic product (GDP)of 1.5
> trillion yuan.
>
> The worst-hit cities in Sichuan, including the provincial capital
> Chengdu, Mianyang, Deyang and Mianzhu, which together account for
> about 2% of national GDP, Liu He, deputy director of the Office of the
> Central Leading Group on financial and economic affairs, said.
>
> In terms of industrial added-value, Sichuan accounts for 3.1% of the
> country's total, with the worst-hit cities representing only 1.3%, Liu
> said.
>
> Disruption to production caused by the earthquake would reduce
> national second-quarter GDP growth by 0.3 percentage points, but this
> is likely to be made up by post-quake reconstruction in the second
> half, HSBC economist Qu Hongbin said.
>
> Even so, the local impact of the disaster will clearly be much more
> severe, with agriculture also being hit hard, along with industry and
> tourism.
>
> Sichuan is China's major pork- and rice-producing province, producing
> 10.4% of the country's meat and 5.8% of its grains, Liu said. "The
> disaster-hit areas produce about 4.3% and 1.6% of the country's meat
> and grains respectively," he said. With local production hit, help in
> meeting demand in the area may have to come from elsewhere, he said.
> Pork is the most consumed meat in China.
>
> Qu echoed Liu's views, saying high food prices will last longer than
> they would have otherwise. Inflation is now more likely to stay around
> 8% in the coming months.
>
> Reconstruction will also help to put pressure on prices, officials
> said. "Post-quake reconstruction will exacerbate already overheated
> demand for metals and other commodities, thereby adding to inflation
> pressures," Qu said. "All this leads us to revise our full-year
> consumer price index [CPI] projection for 2008 to 6.8 % from 6.4%," Qu
> said.
>
> The CPI, the main gauge of inflation, rose 8.5% in April from a year
> earlier, up from a 8.3% gain in March.
>
> The Sichuan quake caused 67 billion yuan worth of damage to a total of
> 14,207 private and state-owned industrial enterprises, the Ministry of
> Industry and Information Technology said on May 19.
>
> China National Chemical Corp and China Railway Engineering Corp were
> among 152 state-owned companies affected. Others included Dongfang
> Electric Corp, Sinohydro Corp and State Grid Corp of China, for a
> combined 30 billion yuan in losses.
>
> More than 3,000 employees of state-owned companies were either dead,
> injured or missing after the disaster, Li Rongrong, director of the
> State-Owned Assets Supervision and Administration Commission (SASAC),
> said earlier.
>
> Dongfang Steam Turbine Plant, which provides 20% of the operating
> revenue of Shanghai-listed Dongfang Electric Corp, China's
> second-biggest maker of power equipment, is still counting its losses
> in Hanwang town in Mianzhu.
>
> Chen Xinyou, deputy general manager of the plant, said several of its
> buildings collapsed, killing about 100 of the more than 5,000 workers,
> while the total death toll including families killed in the
> residential compound was about 400.
>
> Even so, the quake has had marginal impact on the company's boiler and
> power generator businesses, Chen said. "Except for the steam turbine
> plant in Mianzhu, other plants under the company have started
> operating since May 19."
>
> Dongfang Steam has already secured a total of 2,000 mu of land (133
> hectares) in Deyang economic development zone and the Tianyuan
> economic zone, both in Sichuan, for reconstruction, Chen said,
> reflecting pledges from Vice Prime Minister Li Keqiang and the SASAC's
> Li Rongrong that the central government and the commission will do
> their best to help reconstruction efforts.
>
> Dongfang Electric has signed contracts with several companies since
> the quake, including a 4.5 billion yuan deal with China Huaneng to
> provide six thermal power units, each with a capacity of 660 megawatts
> (mW). The company will also provide several wind power units, with a
> combined capacity of more than 4,000 mW.
>
> "Within six months, we will have recovered about 80% of our pre-quake
> production capacity," Chen said. "We will be back in full swing within
> two years."
>
> Dongfang Electric shares had gained 5.96% to 34.65 yuan by Monday from
> 32.70 yuan on May 26 on the Shanghai Stock Exchange. That still leaves
> them about 23% down from their May 12 price of 44.85 yuan.
>
> Other enterprises getting back on their feet include computer chip
> makers Intel Corp, the world's largest, and Semiconductor
> Manufacturing International Corp (SMIC), the biggest made-to-order
> chip maker on the mainland. Both reopened their facilities after
> halting operations briefly.
>
> Intel's chip assembly and test facility in Chengdu, 88 kilometers from
> Wenchuan, the earthquake epicenter, returned to full capacity on May
> 16, Joe Chen, a company spokesman in Shanghai, said. The plant, which
> is used to package and test silicon components, suffered no structural
> damage as it was built with an anti-earthquake design, he said.
>
> Intel invested $525 million in establishing the facility in Chengdu,
> which employs 1,600 workers. It has another assembly and test facility
> in Shanghai and will start operating a $2.5-billion wafer plant in
> Dalian in 2010.
>
> "Our quick reopening has indicated our confidence in relief and
> reconstruction work in Sichuan," he said.
>
> SMIC halted operations at its Chengdu assembly and test plant on May
> 12, reopening the following day. "Given the experience of overseas
> employees, including those from Taiwan, many of whom went through a
> 6.5-magnitude earthquake that struck Taiwan in 1999, our facility has
> an anti-earthquake design, so none of the 1,500 employees [in Chengdu]
> were hurt and no major equipment was damaged," SMIC's acting chief
> financial officer Morning Wu said in Shanghai. She estimated total
> damage at the Sichuan facility at between $2 million and $3 million.
>
> The area's aluminum industry looks to be taking longer to get back on
> its feet. Sichuan Aostar Aluminum Company and Sichuan Guangyuan
> Aluminum Company, with a combined smelting capacity of 400,000 tonnes,
> both face production curbs due to a mixture of plant damage and supply
> disruptions.
>
> The cost of damage at Sichuan Guangyuan Aluminum Company, which has a
> smelting capacity of 150,000 tonnes, will reach hundreds of millions
> of yuan, a company official named Zhang said on the phone. None of the
> 1,000 employees was killed, although a few suffered slight injuries in
> the earthquake, she said.
>
> Zhang said equipment was damaged, but "the reason for the company's
> failure to return to full capacity is the shortage of raw materials
> due to disrupted transport links".
>
> Sichuan Aostar, the largest producer of the metal in the province, had
> enough material stockpiled to feed its plant for 10 days, Tang Yan, an
> operations manager, was quoted as saying by China Daily.
>
> Transport on the main Baoji-Chengdu railway has been disrupted,
> cutting a third of Aostar's monthly alumina supply of 22,000 tonnes
> for one of its two plants. That adds to the woes of a company already
> concerned about the impact of a strengthening local currency, falling
> consumption in the US and macroeconomic control policies imposed in
> the country to rein in fast growth.
>
> China will continue to implement policies to prevent prices and
> investment in reconstruction work from rising too fast, though it
> should meet the needs of enterprises for quake relief, Zhou Xiaochuan,
> governor of the People's Bank of China, said in a statement on the
> central bank's website.
>
> Meanwhile, the earthquake may have dealt a crushing blow to Sichuan's
> tourism sector, with its ancient monuments severely damaged where they
> have not been utterly wrecked and the much-admired natural scenery
> ravaged by landslides.
>
> Sichuan, the only province in the country whose tourism revenue makes
> up more than 8% of the provincial GDP, last year received 1.86 billion
> domestic tourists and 1.71 million from overseas. Turnover from
> tourist spending jumped 24.3% last year to 121.7 billion yuan.
>
> Zhang Gu, director of the Sichuan Tourism Bureau, was quoted as saying
> by China Daily that direct economic losses in the tourism sector
> caused by the earthquake are estimated to exceed 50 billion yuan.
>
> Olivia Chung is a senior Asia Times Online reporter.
== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Thurs, Jun 5 2008 1:30 pm
From: "Chloe"
"Mark Anderson" <mea@nospambrandylion.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.22b1eebf524d0cf3989a6a@chi.news.speakeasy.net...
> In article justsayno@spam.com says...
>> They're economic projections, or, as the old quote goes, "You can put all
>> the economists on earth end to end, and they'll go in every direction."
>> What
>> in heaven's name makes you assume the numbers are "accurate?"
>
> I believe the quote was more like "you can line up all the economists in
> the world end to end and they wouldn't reach a conclusion."
Thanks. Much better!
== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Thurs, Jun 5 2008 3:23 pm
From: PaPaPeng
On Thu, 5 Jun 2008 07:30:19 -0700 (PDT), Al Bundy
<MSfortune@mcpmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>PaPaPeng wrote:
>> Its pretty impressive the authorities can come up with accurate
>> figures on the economic consequences of the Sichuan earthquake.
>>
>> China picks up the pieces
>
>If anyone really cares, they can click on the news rather than reading
>your endless posts.
>The Chinese are a great people and will deal with this.
I posted in the wrong newsgroup. But I am still impressed cuz if you
know where the economic damage is you can plan which problem to attack
first. In three years everything will be restored and built over.
You wouldn't know that that had been a total leveling of everything
before. What you think had never mattered. You have enough troubles
of your own.
==============================================================================
TOPIC: Range clock - Disconnect it!
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/3e2a7ad7ec279de4?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 9 ==
Date: Thurs, Jun 5 2008 11:48 am
From: "Rod Speed"
ranck@vt.edu wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>> ranck@vt.edu wrote
>>> A countdown timer doesn't require a full-fledged time-of-day clock
>>> with a display that is on all the time. Indeed, most modern microwaves
>>> allow you to turn the TOD clock display off by hitting stop/clear when it
>>> first powers up and the clock isn't set. That's a good feature.
>> But it doesnt any effect on the current draw with the device idling.
> If designed properly it would.
Nope.
> A TOD clock chip needs power 24/7,
But that can be done with a coin cell that lasts for years and is with most watches and clocks.
> but a countdown timer chip doesn't need power when the device shuts off.
Sure, but the difference is completely trivial in practice,
you get the shelf life of the coin cell in both cases.
== 2 of 9 ==
Date: Thurs, Jun 5 2008 12:23 pm
From: dpb
max wrote:
...
> That's why i call it dishonest. Because the limitations of windmill
> technology do not require us to build more fossil fuel plants, and
> because it's "relatively" trivial to built energy storage systems to
> buffer their output, should we deem it helpful to do so.
The key word here is "relatively"... relative to what? We as yet don't
have a single large-scale energy storage system that I'm aware of.
Also, I didn't say wind "requires" more fossil and it can replace a
fraction of peak demand.
My point was (and still is) that one cannot build a 100(say) MWe wind
farm and expect to get 100 MWe from it in the same sense one can build
an equivalent 100 MWe of conventional (fossil or nuclear) generation.
Hence, the idea many promote that simply building wind farms eliminates
the need for conventional generation is imo even more intellectually
dishonest.
--
== 3 of 9 ==
Date: Thurs, Jun 5 2008 12:45 pm
From: "Rod Speed"
dpb <none@non.net> wrote
> max wrote:
>> That's why i call it dishonest. Because the limitations of windmill
>> technology do not require us to build more fossil fuel plants, and
>> because it's "relatively" trivial to built energy storage systems to
>> buffer their output, should we deem it helpful to do so.
> The key word here is "relatively"... relative to what? We as yet don't have a single large-scale energy storage
> system that I'm aware of.
You need to get out more.
There are a number of those using hydro systems that get the storage
by pumping water up at time of excess supply from the baseload coal
generators and return that power to the system at times of excess
demand by letting the water down again. Like the Australian Snowy
system that is primarily a storage system for the entire SE Australian grid
and generates only a minor part of its output from a single fall of water.
> Also, I didn't say wind "requires" more fossil and it can replace a fraction of peak demand.
> My point was (and still is) that one cannot build a 100(say) MWe wind
> farm and expect to get 100 MWe from it in the same sense one can build
> an equivalent 100 MWe of conventional (fossil or nuclear) generation.
> Hence, the idea many promote that simply building wind farms eliminates the need for conventional generation is imo
> even more intellectually dishonest.
Correct.
== 4 of 9 ==
Date: Thurs, Jun 5 2008 12:46 pm
From: ranck@vt.edu
In misc.consumers.frugal-living Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:
> ranck@vt.edu wrote
> > Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
> > A TOD clock chip needs power 24/7,
> But that can be done with a coin cell that lasts for years and is with most watches and clocks.
Of course nobody builds kitchen appliances that way.
> > but a countdown timer chip doesn't need power when the device shuts off.
> Sure, but the difference is completely trivial in practice,
> you get the shelf life of the coin cell in both cases.
Again, nobody uses coin cells in kitchen appliances, they all leach
power from the mains to keep their TOD clocks going. Adding a battery
would add manufacturing cost, just changing to a countdown timer would not.
Bill Ranck
Blacksburg, Va.
== 5 of 9 ==
Date: Thurs, Jun 5 2008 1:12 pm
From: "Rod Speed"
ranck@vt.edu wrote
> Rod Speed rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com wrote
>> ranck@vt.edu wrote
>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>>> A TOD clock chip needs power 24/7,
>> But that can be done with a coin cell that lasts for years and is with most watches and clocks.
> Of course nobody builds kitchen appliances that way.
But that does show what is trivially feasible current use wise.
>>> but a countdown timer chip doesn't need power when the device shuts off.
>> Sure, but the difference is completely trivial in practice,
>> you get the shelf life of the coin cell in both cases.
> Again, nobody uses coin cells in kitchen appliances, they all
> leach power from the mains to keep their TOD clocks going.
Again, since you get the shelf life from the coin cell, that shows just
how much mains power is actually wasted in that TOD clock, nothing.
> Adding a battery would add manufacturing cost,
And getting that trivial current from the mains doesnt.
> just changing to a countdown timer would not.
Just leaving the TOD clock with that trivial current drain doesnt either.
== 6 of 9 ==
Date: Thurs, Jun 5 2008 1:17 pm
From: dpb
Rod Speed wrote:
> dpb <none@non.net> wrote
...
> There are a number of those using hydro systems that get the storage
> by pumping water up at time of excess supply from the baseload coal
> generators and return that power to the system at times of excess
> demand by letting the water down again. ...
I am fully aware of pumped hydro storage. They're of da'ed little value
for the locations of most wind farms on the High Plains where there are
(a) no hills, (b) no surface water.
--
== 7 of 9 ==
Date: Thurs, Jun 5 2008 2:02 pm
From: "Rod Speed"
dpb <none@non.net> wrote
> Rod Speed wrote
>> dpb <none@non.net> wrote
>>> max wrote:
>>>> That's why i call it dishonest. Because the limitations of windmill
>>>> technology do not require us to build more fossil fuel plants, and
>>>> because it's "relatively" trivial to built energy storage systems to
>>>> buffer their output, should we deem it helpful to do so.
>>> The key word here is "relatively"... relative to what? We as yet don't have a single large-scale energy storage
>>> system that I'm aware of.
>> You need to get out more.
>> There are a number of those using hydro systems that get the storage
>> by pumping water up at time of excess supply from the baseload coal
>> generators and return that power to the system at times of excess
>> demand by letting the water down again. Like the Australian Snowy
>> system that is primarily a storage system for the entire SE Australian grid
>> and generates only a minor part of its output from a single fall of water.
> I am fully aware of pumped hydro storage.
If you were, you wouldnt have made that stupid claim you clearly did make.
> They're of da'ed little value for the locations of most wind farms on the High Plains where there are (a) no hills,
> (b) no surface water.
Pity about the SE Australian grid where the wind farms
are part of the SAME grid as the pumped hydro storage.
Your 'as yet don't have a single large-scale energy storage
system that I'm aware of' is clearly just plain wrong.
AND it aint the only one either.
== 8 of 9 ==
Date: Thurs, Jun 5 2008 2:15 pm
From: dpb
Rod Speed wrote:
> dpb <none@non.net> wrote
...
>>> There are a number of those using hydro systems that get the storage
>>> by pumping water up at time of excess supply from the baseload coal
>>> generators and return that power to the system at times of excess
...
>> I am fully aware of pumped hydro storage.
>
> If you were, you wouldnt have made that stupid claim you clearly did make.
No, I simply don't equate pumped storage w/ electricity storage --
they're separate forms...one _uses_ the (temporarily) excess power to
refill the power supply, the other would be a storage of the electric
power itself to be used later.
>> They're of da'ed little value for the locations of most wind farms on the High Plains where there are (a) no hills,
>> (b) no surface water.
>
> Pity about the SE Australian grid where the wind farms
> are part of the SAME grid as the pumped hydro storage.
Well, SE Australia isn't the US High Plains. There would have to be
even more currently nonexistent transmission lines built to supply the
power to somewhere there is sufficient elevation difference and water to
complete the system and that ain't within anywhere close. CO has
elevation but very little excess water. KS, OK, TX, NE, etc. have
minimal elevations. Catch-22.
Again, I repeat--even if pumped storage were the pancea, that _STILL_ is
an alternative system that would have to be built as a complement to the
wind farm system which _STILL_ is an added cost burden.
> Your 'as yet don't have a single large-scale energy storage
> system that I'm aware of' is clearly just plain wrong.
>
> AND it aint the only one either.
Agreed, used to live just down the road from Smith Mtn. But, it still
ain't the same thing...
--
== 9 of 9 ==
Date: Thurs, Jun 5 2008 2:58 pm
From: "Rod Speed"
dpb <none@non.net> wrote
> Rod Speed wrote
>> dpb <none@non.net> wrote
>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>>> dpb <none@non.net> wrote
>>>>> max wrote:
>>>>>> That's why i call it dishonest. Because the limitations of windmill
>>>>>> technology do not require us to build more fossil fuel plants, and
>>>>>> because it's "relatively" trivial to built energy storage systems to
>>>>>> buffer their output, should we deem it helpful to do so.
>>>>> The key word here is "relatively"... relative to what? We as yet don't have a single large-scale energy storage
>>>>> system that I'm aware of.
>>>> You need to get out more.
>>>> There are a number of those using hydro systems that get the storage
>>>> by pumping water up at time of excess supply from the baseload coal
>>>> generators and return that power to the system at times of excess
>>>> demand by letting the water down again. Like the Australian Snowy
>>>> system that is primarily a storage system for the entire SE Australian grid
>>>> and generates only a minor part of its output from a single fall of water.
>>> I am fully aware of pumped hydro storage.
>> If you were, you wouldnt have made that stupid claim you clearly did make.
> No,
Yep.
> I simply don't equate pumped storage w/ electricity storage
Then you are just plain wrong. That is precisely what they are.
> they're separate forms...
Nope.
> one _uses_ the (temporarily) excess power to refill the power supply, the other would be a storage of the electric
> power itself to be used later.
They are BOTH storage of electrical power to be used later.
>>> They're of da'ed little value for the locations of most wind farms on the High Plains where there are (a) no hills,
>>> (b) no surface water.
>> Pity about the SE Australian grid where the wind farms
>> are part of the SAME grid as the pumped hydro storage.
> Well, SE Australia isn't the US High Plains.
You never said anything about the US High Plains in that stupid claim you made that
"as yet don't have a single large-scale energy storage system that I'm aware of"
> There would have to be even more currently nonexistent transmission lines built to supply the power to somewhere there
> is sufficient elevation difference and water to complete the system and that ain't within anywhere close. CO has
> elevation but very little excess water. KS, OK, TX, NE, etc. have minimal elevations. Catch-22.
Irrelevant to that stupid claim you made that "as yet don't have
a single large-scale energy storage system that I'm aware of"
> Again, I repeat--even if pumped storage were the pancea,
No one ever said it was.
> that _STILL_ is an alternative system that would have to be built as a complement to the wind farm system
Not when its already in place to allow constant loads on
coal fired power stations in massive countrywide grids.
> which _STILL_ is an added cost burden.
Wrong, as always when its already in place to allow constant
loads on coal fired power stations in massive countrywide grids.
>> Your 'as yet don't have a single large-scale energy storage
>> system that I'm aware of' is clearly just plain wrong.
>> AND it aint the only one either.
> Agreed, used to live just down the road from Smith Mtn. But, it still ain't the same thing...
Corse it is.
==============================================================================
TOPIC: Poverty in California...
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/df52112e775185a1?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 6 ==
Date: Thurs, Jun 5 2008 11:57 am
From: Samantha Hill - remove TRASH to reply
Coffee's For Closers wrote:
>
> My own body-property rights would NOT extend to forcing another
> person to get, or forego, a nose job. Or forcing them to have,
> or forego, an abortion. Regardless of how I might feel
> emotionally about either subject. Abortion is on the border with
> two humans, but laws must fall on one side or the other, so I say
> responsibility is on the mother.
>
> But, my body-property rights would also NOT extend to creating a
> child who would suffer for my lack of responsibility and
> resources.
How do you reconcile believing that nobody has an absolute right to
conceive a child with believing that you should not force another person
to have an abortion? And some forms of birth control are repugnant to
some people's consciences -- would you force them to violate their
conscience?
I think that if you took away tax deductions, child care credit, etc.,
additional welfare credits for more than one or two children, etc., that
would discourage people enough from having more children that you
wouldn't need to turn people into involuntary slaves of the state when
it came to reproductive freedoms.
== 2 of 6 ==
Date: Thurs, Jun 5 2008 12:01 pm
From: Samantha Hill - remove TRASH to reply
Cindy Hamilton wrote:
>
> Not if I'm paying for them. As a Libertarian, you're really... Well,
> the nicest
> thing I can think to say is that you've got tunnel vision where cute,
> cuddly
> little babies are concerned.
I never said I was a Libertarian, just that maybe some of my beliefs
tend to go in that direction.
> Believe me, if I were the Dictator of the United States, I'd say "You
> can either
> get a job and support yourself and your children or accept Welfare and
> be
> sterilized."
It is presently illegal -- well, in California, at least -- to forcibly
sterilize a person who cannot personally give informed consent (source:
An acquaintance has an adult child with Down Syndrome and went through
investigating this), but you can procure them an abortion without their
informed consent. I am not sure if you can give them contraceptives if
they cannot personally give a full informed consent. This came about
because people felt it was unfair to sterilize "undesirables" because it
violated their civil rights or something like that.
== 3 of 6 ==
Date: Thurs, Jun 5 2008 12:21 pm
From: Cindy Hamilton
On Jun 5, 3:01 pm, Samantha Hill - remove TRASH to reply
<samh...@TRASHsonic.net> wrote:
> Cindy Hamilton wrote:
>
> > Not if I'm paying for them. As a Libertarian, you're really... Well,
> > the nicest
> > thing I can think to say is that you've got tunnel vision where cute,
> > cuddly
> > little babies are concerned.
>
> I never said I was a Libertarian, just that maybe some of my beliefs
> tend to go in that direction.
>
> > Believe me, if I were the Dictator of the United States, I'd say "You
> > can either
> > get a job and support yourself and your children or accept Welfare and
> > be
> > sterilized."
>
> It is presently illegal -- well, in California, at least -- to forcibly
> sterilize a person who cannot personally give informed consent (source:
> An acquaintance has an adult child with Down Syndrome and went through
> investigating this), but you can procure them an abortion without their
> informed consent. I am not sure if you can give them contraceptives if
> they cannot personally give a full informed consent. This came about
> because people felt it was unfair to sterilize "undesirables" because it
> violated their civil rights or something like that.
I'm not sure you're reading my posts very carefully. I don't actually
expect
to become Dictator of the United States.
Cindy Hamilton
== 4 of 6 ==
Date: Thurs, Jun 5 2008 12:50 pm
From: "Rod Speed"
Samantha Hill <samhill@TRASHsonic.net> wrote
> Coffee's For Closers wrote
>> My own body-property rights would NOT extend to forcing another person to get, or forego, a nose job. Or forcing
>> them to have, or forego, an abortion. Regardless of how I might feel emotionally about either subject. Abortion is
>> on the border with two humans, but laws must fall on one side or the other, so I say responsibility is on the mother.
>> But, my body-property rights would also NOT extend to creating a
>> child who would suffer for my lack of responsibility and resources.
> How do you reconcile believing that nobody has an absolute right to conceive a child with believing that you should
> not force another person to have an abortion? And some forms of birth control are repugnant to some people's
> consciences -- would you force them to violate their conscience?
> I think that if you took away tax deductions, child care credit, etc.,
> additional welfare credits for more than one or two children, etc.,
> that would discourage people enough from having more children
The dregs of society dont calculate like that. They were pumping
out FAR more kids than their economic circumstances could
possibly support in the days before there was any welfare
at all, and thats still the situation in the third world right now.
> that you wouldn't need to turn people into involuntary slaves of the state when it came to reproductive freedoms.
Whatever that means.
== 5 of 6 ==
Date: Thurs, Jun 5 2008 2:59 pm
From:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Samantha Hill - remove TRASH to reply" <samhill@TRASHsonic.net> wrote in >
I think that if you took away tax deductions, child care credit, etc.,
> additional welfare credits for more than one or two children, etc., that
> would discourage people enough from having more children that you wouldn't
> need to turn people into involuntary slaves of the state when it came to
> reproductive freedoms.
You should be able to have one child for free (no deductions, no extra
taxes). After one child you should have to pay extra taxes equal to the
amount of the current per child deduction for each surplus child you
produce. The idea that people are rewarded (with deductions) for every new
resource sucker they pump out is insane. Where are we going to put all these
extra people? What are we going to feed them? Either we go back to a life
span of less than 60 years or we start having fewer children.
== 6 of 6 ==
Date: Thurs, Jun 5 2008 3:04 pm
From: "Rod Speed"
h wrote
> Samantha Hill <samhill@TRASHsonic.net> wrote
>> I think that if you took away tax deductions, child care credit, etc., additional welfare credits for more than one
>> or two children, etc.,
>> that would discourage people enough from having more children that you wouldn't need to turn people into involuntary
>> slaves of the state when it came to reproductive freedoms.
> You should be able to have one child for free (no deductions, no extra
> taxes). After one child you should have to pay extra taxes equal to
> the amount of the current per child deduction for each surplus child
> you produce. The idea that people are rewarded (with deductions) for
> every new resource sucker they pump out is insane.
Not neccessarily. Any modern first world economy depends on new
individuals that can pay more taxes than those who have retired etc,
and thats one obvious way to get more of those, and has significant
advantages over using immigrants for that instead. Particularly when
every single modern first world country isnt even self replacing on
population now if you take out immigration.
> Where are we going to put all these extra people?
Same place we put those we had before the population shrank.
> What are we going to feed them?
Same thing we fed those we had before the population shrank.
> Either we go back to a life span of less than 60 years or we start having fewer children.
It aint that binary. The modern reality is that every single modern
first world country, and most of the second world too, isnt even
self replacing on population now if you take out immigration.
==============================================================================
TOPIC: Apples
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/3b20db81f878f9e8?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Jun 5 2008 2:14 pm
From: "Marlo"
So on a list I'm on with lots of great people, some of whom are boneheaded,
someone called for the return of "traditional" families -- you know, where
the husband works and the wife stays home with the kids, stuff like that.
I said it was shortsighted and ignored millennia of other traditions to call
the nuclear family "traditional" and another woman said that Adam and Eve
sure looked plenty traditional to her, minus a closet full of clothes. My
response:
Wow. Really? Let's see...
1) They raised a murderer
2) Their kids all practiced incest
3) Neither of them worked, either in or outside of the home
(Not to mention, and this is one you can skip if you want, THEY'RE
FICTIONAL!)
==============================================================================
TOPIC: Frugal travel JFK to midtown Manhattan
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/65edc10560269528?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Thurs, Jun 5 2008 2:36 pm
From: Binyamin Dissen
On Mon, 26 May 2008 07:41:35 -0700 William Souden <souden@nospam.com> wrote:
:>Dan Birchall wrote:
:>> souden@nospam.com (William Souden) wrote:
:>>> I just returned from a trip to NYC and to took the train connection
:>>> to midtown. While not recommended for those with many bags or mobility
:>>> problems it worked for me:
:>>> Air Train to Jamaica-$5
:>>> Long Island Railroad to Penn Station-$7.25 (cheaper off-peak. a two
:>>> minute walk)
:>> Seconded - I just did the same thing a little bit earlier than William.
:>> I was traveling off-peak so I think my LIRR ticket was $5.25 or $5.50.
:>> I actually connected at Penn Station to NJ Transit and went over to see
:>> family.
:>> If you want to be a _real_ tightwad, instead of taking the $5+ LIRR
:>> train from Jamaica to Penn Station, you can take the MTA (subway) "E"
:>> train, which is only about $2. The AirTrain also goes to Howard Beach
:>> station (a little closer to JFK) where you can catch the MTA "A" train.
:>> I used to take the "A" to near Wall Street and then take PATH over to
:>> NJ.
:> I knew about that option but since I would have been getting on the
:>subway during the a.m. commute I opted for the LIRR. still had to stand
:>but had more breathing room.
:> Like you I head to NJ Transit,something that would not have been
:>feasible before they built the Secaucus transfer station (another topic
:>for another time).
:> By the way, it was my first trip on Jet Blue. I tool the red eye and
:>when I could not sleep I had Direct TV (individual monitors for each
:>seat) and satellite radio.
Even cheaper - city bus to subway. #2 total (if you have a metrocard)
--
Binyamin Dissen <bdissen@dissensoftware.com>
http://www.dissensoftware.com
Should you use the mailblocks package and expect a response from me,
you should preauthorize the dissensoftware.com domain.
I very rarely bother responding to challenge/response systems,
especially those from irresponsible companies.
== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Thurs, Jun 5 2008 2:59 pm
From: William Souden
Binyamin Dissen wrote:
> On Mon, 26 May 2008 07:41:35 -0700 William Souden <souden@nospam.com> wrote:
>
> :>Dan Birchall wrote:
> :>> souden@nospam.com (William Souden) wrote:
> :>>> I just returned from a trip to NYC and to took the train connection
> :>>> to midtown. While not recommended for those with many bags or mobility
> :>>> problems it worked for me:
>
> :>>> Air Train to Jamaica-$5
> :>>> Long Island Railroad to Penn Station-$7.25 (cheaper off-peak. a two
> :>>> minute walk)
>
> :>> Seconded - I just did the same thing a little bit earlier than William.
> :>> I was traveling off-peak so I think my LIRR ticket was $5.25 or $5.50.
> :>> I actually connected at Penn Station to NJ Transit and went over to see
> :>> family.
>
> :>> If you want to be a _real_ tightwad, instead of taking the $5+ LIRR
> :>> train from Jamaica to Penn Station, you can take the MTA (subway) "E"
> :>> train, which is only about $2. The AirTrain also goes to Howard Beach
> :>> station (a little closer to JFK) where you can catch the MTA "A" train.
> :>> I used to take the "A" to near Wall Street and then take PATH over to
> :>> NJ.
>
> :> I knew about that option but since I would have been getting on the
> :>subway during the a.m. commute I opted for the LIRR. still had to stand
> :>but had more breathing room.
> :> Like you I head to NJ Transit,something that would not have been
> :>feasible before they built the Secaucus transfer station (another topic
> :>for another time).
> :> By the way, it was my first trip on Jet Blue. I tool the red eye and
> :>when I could not sleep I had Direct TV (individual monitors for each
> :>seat) and satellite radio.
>
> Even cheaper - city bus to subway. #2 total (if you have a metrocard)
>
True but since I arrived during the a.m. commute I wanted the extra
breathing room on the LIRR. Also time was a factor as at that hour the
connection I used for NJ Transit only went once each hour.
== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Thurs, Jun 5 2008 3:17 pm
From: SMS
Dan Birchall wrote:
> If you want to be a _real_ tightwad, instead of taking the $5+ LIRR
> train from Jamaica to Penn Station, you can take the MTA (subway) "E"
> train, which is only about $2.
I've done that, not because I was a tightwad, but because the E train
was near my hotel. It would have been less convenient to change trains
twice.
== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Thurs, Jun 5 2008 3:16 pm
From: "TKM"
"William Souden" <souden@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:glZ1k.913$L_.625@flpi150.ffdc.sbc.com...
> Binyamin Dissen wrote:
>> On Mon, 26 May 2008 07:41:35 -0700 William Souden <souden@nospam.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> :>Dan Birchall wrote:
>> :>> souden@nospam.com (William Souden) wrote:
>> :>>> I just returned from a trip to NYC and to took the train
>> connection :>>> to midtown. While not recommended for those with many
>> bags or mobility :>>> problems it worked for me:
>>
>> :>>> Air Train to Jamaica-$5
>> :>>> Long Island Railroad to Penn Station-$7.25 (cheaper off-peak. a
>> two :>>> minute walk)
>> :>> Seconded - I just did the same thing a little bit earlier than
>> William.
>> :>> I was traveling off-peak so I think my LIRR ticket was $5.25 or
>> $5.50.
>> :>> I actually connected at Penn Station to NJ Transit and went over to
>> see
>> :>> family.
>> :>> If you want to be a _real_ tightwad, instead of taking the $5+ LIRR
>> :>> train from Jamaica to Penn Station, you can take the MTA (subway) "E"
>> :>> train, which is only about $2. The AirTrain also goes to Howard
>> Beach
>> :>> station (a little closer to JFK) where you can catch the MTA "A"
>> train.
>> :>> I used to take the "A" to near Wall Street and then take PATH over to
>> :>> NJ. :> I knew about that option but since I would have been getting
>> on the :>subway during the a.m. commute I opted for the LIRR. still had
>> to stand :>but had more breathing room.
>> :> Like you I head to NJ Transit,something that would not have been
>> :>feasible before they built the Secaucus transfer station (another topic
>> :>for another time).
>> :> By the way, it was my first trip on Jet Blue. I tool the red eye and
>> :>when I could not sleep I had Direct TV (individual monitors for each
>> :>seat) and satellite radio.
>>
>> Even cheaper - city bus to subway. #2 total (if you have a metrocard)
>>
>
>
> True but since I arrived during the a.m. commute I wanted the extra
> breathing room on the LIRR. Also time was a factor as at that hour the
> connection I used for NJ Transit only went once each hour.
How do those options compare with the cost of the direct bus to midtown
Manhattan?
TKM
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