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==============================================================================
TOPIC: There is no "right" to health care
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/e14cb160c2e4a0dd?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 16 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 12 2009 8:43 am
From: Geopinion
On Oct 11, 6:55 pm, John...@BadISP.org wrote:
> Geopinion<walk...@easystreet.net> wrote:
> >On Oct 10, 3:33 pm, John Q Public <my2ce...@me.com> wrote:
> >> On 2009-10-10 15:20:30 -0400, Michael Coburn <mik...@verizon.net> said:
> >> > On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 14:50:01 -0400, Beam Me Up Scotty wrote:
> >> >>> On Oct 9, 5:42 pm,Geopinion<walk...@easystreet.net> wrote:
> >> >>>> On Oct 9, 9:17 am, K <Kvisi...@live.con> wrote:
> >> >>>>> In fact, no one has a "right" to any material good or service.
> >> >>>>> Someone might choose to provide some goods and services to deadbeats,
> >> >>>>> but that doesn't imply a right to them; and the provider may
> >> >>>>> subsequently decide to stop providing them.
> >> >>>>> You have no more "right" to health care than you have to a big screen
> >> >>>>> TV, Hawaiian holidays, a car, or a lobster dinner. You don't have a
> >> >>>>> "right" to goods or services. If you want goods and services, you
> >> >>>>> must pay for them, or you must persuade someone to give them to you
> >> >>>>> voluntarily. If your powers of persuasion are weak, you'll fare
> >> >>>>> poorly. That's simply how it is, and it's good and just.
> >> >>>> There is a right to health care if we, the people, decide there is. We
> >> >>>> aren't limited to rights specifically outlined in the Constitution,
> >> >>>> but are assumed to possess a whole host of unenumerated rights. It is
> >> >>>> also within our power to decide that there are rights and policies
> >> >>>> that serve the greater good, and there is nothing in the constitution
> >> >>>> that prohibits that.
> >> >> Where is your "right" to force me to into your health care?
> >> >> Try amendment 9, your rights don't supersede my rights.
> >> > We have the right to protect ourselves from your ingrained stupidity and
> >> > the damage it causes us.
> >> Your a fucking idiot, your socialist policies you love are what got us
> >> to this point, the free market
> >> is the only solution, its not perfect and it doesn't provide your so
> >> called social justice but in the
> >> end it always be more efficient and fair than any other system- Hide quoted text -
> >> - Show quoted text -
> >The free market assumes several things: that everyone has sufficient
> >information to make a choice, that choices are not made under duress,
> >and that choices are available. It also assumes that the consumer has
> >the power to simply not make a choice at all - do without - as a way
> >of forcing the market to respond.
>
> Absolutely. The free market assumes these things and they're necessary
> for it to work its magic, to keep prices as low as possible, to ensure
> provision of the goods and services needed and in the proportion
> necessary, and to provide the freedom to choose (a good in and of
> itself). The problem is that no one empowers the consumer, forces the
> providers to compete, and forces the consumer to find out about the
> options available to him. Quite the contrary. Due (usually) to venal
> and nannyistic considerations we have actually gone the other way and
> stopped the consumer from performing his role in the system.
>
> >No one knows which physicians or hospitals provide the best care for
> >the least cost. That information is not available anywhere, so the
> >free market provides no choices for the health-care consumer.
>
> Someone does know, or at least can find out. However, the physicians
> and hospitals don't want this to happen so they pressure and are
> largely successful in preventing governments from collecting and
> disseminating the information. As with all these areas there is some
> truth to the (usual) accusation of the weakness of the information,
> and as usual the concept that we can't achieve perfection is used to
> avoid any action whatsoever.
OK, let's say you've done your homework and have somehow managed to
find enough information about physicians/hospital who are the best and
most affordable local options for the conditions you are most likely
to face: heart disease, cancer, Alzheimers, diabetes; but then you
develop a rare nerve disease and must start all over. Weakness of the
information is critical and unless/until sufficient information is
available to all patients, and unless/until all patients are
sufficiently educated to evaluate the information, the free-market has
failed at the critical first step: finding the best, most affordable
care.
>
> >No one can afford to take the time and perform the research needed to
> >determine where to get the most effective treatment for the least cost
> >in the shadow of a potentially life-threatening illness. So the free
> >market has no answers in that situation.
>
> That's exactly when you want to do your homework and when the
> government should be working to make the suppliers cough up the
> relevant information. But maybe you mean "in an emergency situation"
> instead of "in the shadow of a life-threatening illness." In that
> case, true, you can't spend the time to find out which is the best
> hospital to stabilize you. This is where we need trauma insurance, or
> perhaps there's a place for 100% government control and operation,
> much like the fire brigade.
Again, the needed information is not currently available, nor is it
likely to become available. Expecting lay people to become
sufficiently well informed about something that took physicians years
and years of medical training to understand, is another failure of the
free-market with regard to health care. And how does one weight
quality vs. cost? Should I chose the second or third cheapest
provider of that's the best? or does cost outweigh everything else?
>
> >Rural areas and small towns may have only one source for health care,
> >so there are no choices to be made among competing providers because
> >there are no competing providers. The free market offers no solutions
> >there.
>
> Oh, come on. Under all systems the rural ill are going to be at a
> significant disadvantage. If they want the choice they have to move to
> a big city. In practice, just as in other sectors of the economy,
> competition comes via mail order, the internet, and travel to the
> appropriate competing supplier. We even have people going to India,
> Thailand, and Mexico (and probably other countries) for lower cost
> health care. There's the competition.
The absence of rural/small-town medical services means the free-market
has not been successful outside large metropolitan areas. And
suggesting that all Americans move to cities large enough to have
multiple providers is kind of ludicrous.
>
> >The same limits exist with regard to insurers; most people have no
> >choice but must use the insurer - and the participating physicians/
> >hospitals - their employer selects. Those without employer-provided
> >health care likewise have very limited choices and usually must simply
> >obtain coverage they can afford. So, the free market hasn't performed
> >for those people, either.
>
> And that's because the free market hasn't been allowed/forced to
> function. Several years ago I attempted to compare the reimbursement
> levels between the (supposedly) competing plans my employer offered.
> Big problem: the DRG's (Diagnostic Related Groups) are not the same
> between plans and the actual coding is copyright (even Medicare's) so
> you can't get a list of the DRG's (without paying megabucks for them)
> and even if you do you can't compare them nor can anyone else and
> publish the comparison. Obviously this is to prevent competition
> something the free marketeers should have outlawed long ago. But they
> don't / didn't. Further most insurance companies won't even talk to
> you (the insured or potential insured). They make it as hard as
> possible to find out what you're actually getting for your money. This
> is like the restaurant telling you it won't tell you the price of your
> food until after you've consumed it.
And insurance companies wouldn't pay out a dime if they didn't have
to. That's why "insurance" is ill-fitted to health care. Health
problems are a given; most individuals WILL become ill at some point
in their life. Insurance is for "in case of," rare, unforeseen
losses. Insurance companies never consider themselves to be involved
in their clients' lives from cradle-to-grave. Their risks are usually
limited by term of employment or membership in a covered
organization. Insurance companies Number One task is to limit payouts
and maximize shareholder/CEO/lobbyist profits. Insurance companies do
not provide health care.
>
> >And people in need of health care aren't really in a position to
> >simply say, "Forget it, I'll go without," because sometimes that
> >decision means death or permanent disability for oneself or one's
> >child or spouse or parent. So, the consumer cannot influence the
> >market by rejecting the available choices.
>
> "Sometimes" doesn't mean "always" and it's all those "not always"
> occurrences that will have a profound effect on the supplier.
>
> In a free market however, it's not usually "go without" but rather
> choose a cheaper supplier. Hopefully I'm not going to be too
> long-winded here. Let's take an analogy: your can needs new brake pads
> so you have several alternatives:
>
> - buy the pads yourself and install them yourself. Not too difficult.
> Cost: say $50
>
> - get the gear-head teenager down the block to do the job. Cost: $50
> plus $20 labor.
>
> - get the local garage to do it. Cost: $50 plus $50 labor.
>
> - get "Brakes 'r' Us" to do it. Cost $50 plus $75 labor.
>
> - get the dealer to do it. Cost $50 plus $150 labor.
>
> - or finally something that doesn't really exist: get the automotive
> engineer with a degree from MIT to do it. He'll bring in a consulting
> metallurgist and they'll X-ray the disks to find hairline fractures.
> It'll probably take a couple of months and who knows how much it'll
> cost because they won't tell you up front... "You don't want to put a
> price on your car's safety, do you ?" Conservatively we're probably
> talking a few thousand bucks.
>
> In our wonderful health care system we have today we only have the
> option of the automotive engineer and the thousands of dollars fees.
> We can't do it ourselves because the powers-that-be have decided we
> might make a mistake and we can't employ any of the other
> "unqualified" people (in reality "Brakes 'r' Us", for example, are
> probably vastly more qualified than anyone else in the group above)
> because ... well, the real reason is that they (or ourselves) will
> take business away from the equivalent of the automotive engineer. If
> you want to break the current system you have to give the consumer
> "skin in the game" and empower him to make his own choices.
>
> >Free-market zealots think the market is a one-size-fits-all solution
> >to everything - it's not. It works for commerce, only, and then only
> >for things that aren't vital to life.
>
> In all instances it has to be made to work usually by government force
> applied to the suppliers in this (and most) cases. The problem is that
> those suppliers have our elected officials in their back pockets and
> have done so for so long that the current wasteful system has become
> ingrained in the minds of the people.- Hide quoted text -
As long as the bottom line for insurance companies is their bottom
line, they will never operate in the interest of patients. Never.
MLW
>
> - Show quoted text -
== 2 of 16 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 12 2009 8:50 am
From: Wilson Woods
Wayne wrote:
> "tmclone" <tmclone@searchmachine.com> wrote in message
> news:bcedb7bc-0004-40dc-9480-088c38e95085@z34g2000vbl.googlegroups.com...
>
>> On Oct 10, 2:17 am, K <Kvisi...@live.con> wrote:
>>
>>> In fact, no one has a "right" to any material good or service. Someone
>>> might choose to provide some goods and services to deadbeats, but that
>>> doesn't imply a right to them; and the provider may subsequently decide
>>> to stop providing them.
>>> You have no more "right" to health care than you have to a big screen
>>> TV, Hawaiian holidays, a car, or a lobster dinner. You don't have a
>>> "right" to goods or services. If you want goods and services, you must
>>> pay for them, or you must persuade someone to give them to you
>>> voluntarily. If your powers of persuasion are weak, you'll fare poorly.
>>> That's simply how it is, and it's good and just.
> <
> <Wrong. In the USA, all people have the "right" to a free, publicly-
> <providededucation.
> -
> Nope. Where do you get this stuff.
Yes, exactly. Note that many people wrongly think that there is a
"right" to things that are considered "needs" (vs "mere wants", which
they wish to disparage), but education is in no way a "need" in the way
these people consider food and shelter (and medical care) to be a
"need". Millions, perhaps billions, of people around the world continue
to exist without any education at all.
No, there is no such thing as a distinction between "needs" vs "mere
wants". There are only wants: people want to live, and they want
things that affect the quality of life. All "needs" are merely
instrumental to wants. If you want to keep living, then you "need"
food. If you want to play golf, then you "need" golf clubs. But there
is no need to play golf, or even to live, in the first place - those are
wants.
> And I suppose everyone has a right to government provided electricity,
> water, housing, etc. along with healthcare?
In the minds of the looters, those all become "needs", but they are of
course wrong.
== 3 of 16 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 12 2009 9:32 am
From: Mark Anderson
On Mon, 12 Oct 2009 10:13:11 -0500, Topaz wrote:
> We clearly need a nation for White people.
No. We clearly need a nation for inbred retards like yourself.
== 4 of 16 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 12 2009 9:33 am
From: Lisa Lisa
On Oct 12, 11:13 am, Topaz <mars1...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> A great nation would make sure all citizens got proper health care.
> But it is true that today most welfare is White people giving to Black
> people. And the Black people hate the White race and blame all their
> problems on us. We clearly need a nation for White people.
>
> http://www.ihr.org/ www.vanguardnewsnetwork.com/
>
> http://www.natvan.com http://www.nsm88.org
>
> http://heretical.com/ http://immigration-globalization.blogspot.com/
Look how the racial issue keeps cropping up in the health care debate.
It's my opinion that resistance to a more rational system is mostly
rooted in racial attitudes. Some bigoted white people would rather
blow money on CEOs, redundant employees and paperwork than direct it
towards the actual delivery of services. I do believe they'd even be
willing to bring down the country rather than mainstream blacks.
They're THAT bigoted.
== 5 of 16 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 12 2009 9:35 am
From: Wilson Woods
Lisa Lisa wrote:
> On Oct 12, 11:13 am, Topaz <mars1...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> A great nation would make sure all citizens got proper health care.
>> But it is true that today most welfare is White people giving to Black
>> people. And the Black people hate the White race and blame all their
>> problems on us. We clearly need a nation for White people.
>>
>> http://www.ihr.org/ www.vanguardnewsnetwork.com/
>>
>> http://www.natvan.com http://www.nsm88.org
>>
>> http://heretical.com/ http://immigration-globalization.blogspot.com/
>
> Look how the racial issue keeps cropping up in the health care debate.
>
> It's my opinion that resistance to a more rational system is mostly
> rooted in racial attitudes.
That's bullshit. Leftists see race in everything, even - and especially
- when it isn't there. That makes them the racists.
== 6 of 16 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 12 2009 9:41 am
From: Lisa Lisa
On Oct 11, 2:04 pm, Beam Me Up Scotty <Then-Destroy-Everyth...@Talk-n-
dog.com> wrote:
>
> I hope you have millions of jail cells, I won't be forced by government
> to spend or work like a slave.
I'm normally pretty uninterested in garbage like multiculturalism and
race-mixing, but guys like you make me happy that America is going to
eventually become beige.
Lisa
== 7 of 16 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 12 2009 9:49 am
From: me@privacy.net
Wilson Woods <banmilk@hotmail.com> wrote:
>me@privacy.net wrote:
>> Wilson Woods <banmilk@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> Why do you snip my argument and then lie about it?
>>> I don't.
>
>Your concession of defeat is noted and accepted, creampuff.
Only in your drug crazed pathetic mind mamas boy
=========================================================
Try to make me, fuckwit - I'll shoot you dead, and laugh about it over a
beer later. Then I'll stub a cigar butt out on your orphan child's head.-Wilson Woods
== 8 of 16 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 12 2009 9:54 am
From: me@privacy.net
Wilson Woods <banmilk@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> It's my opinion that resistance to a more rational system is mostly
>> rooted in racial attitudes.
>
>That's bullshit. Leftists see race in everything, even - and especially
>- when it isn't there. That makes them the racists.
You are a PRIME example of racist..... you would still
be gassing Jews and having Blacks lynched
Your narrow minded Nazi superior attitude tells all
=========================================================
Try to make me, fuckwit - I'll shoot you dead, and laugh about it over a
beer later. Then I'll stub a cigar butt out on your orphan child's head.-Wilson Woods
== 9 of 16 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 12 2009 9:55 am
From: me@privacy.net
Geopinion <walkmar@easystreet.net> wrote:
>And insurance companies wouldn't pay out a dime if they didn't have
>to.
They wont even insure you if you have any kind of
pre-existing condition.... even simple ones like GERD
=========================================================
Try to make me, fuckwit - I'll shoot you dead, and laugh about it over a
beer later. Then I'll stub a cigar butt out on your orphan child's head.-Wilson Woods
== 10 of 16 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 12 2009 10:03 am
From: Wilson Woods
Lisa Lisa wrote:
> On Oct 11, 2:04 pm, Beam Me Up Scotty <Then-Destroy-Everyth...@Talk-n-
> dog.com> wrote:
>
>> I hope you have millions of jail cells, I won't be forced by government
>> to spend or work like a slave.
>
> I'm normally pretty uninterested in garbage like multiculturalism and
> race-mixing,
Yeah, sure you aren't, liar.
> but guys like you make me happy that America is going to
> eventually become beige.
That, and your earlier bogus assertion that race plays a major role in
the health care "debate", prove you're a liar.
== 11 of 16 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 12 2009 10:05 am
From: Wilson Woods
me@privacy.net, a looter, wrote:
> Wilson Woods <banmilk@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> me@privacy.net wrote:
>>> Wilson Woods <banmilk@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Why do you snip my argument and then lie about it?
>>>> I don't.
>> Your concession of defeat is noted and accepted, creampuff.
>
> Only in your [snip leftist wheeze]
Your concession of defeat already was noted and accepted, creampuff.
You can stop now.
== 12 of 16 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 12 2009 10:05 am
From: Wilson Woods
me@privacy.net, a looter, wrote:
> Wilson Woods <banmilk@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> It's my opinion that resistance to a more rational system is mostly
>>> rooted in racial attitudes.
>> That's bullshit. Leftists see race in everything, even - and especially
>> - when it isn't there. That makes them the racists.
>
> You are a PRIME example of racist..... you would still
> be gassing Jews and having Blacks lynched
>
> Your narrow minded Nazi superior attitude
No such attitude.
You lost. Time for you to go off and bother someone else, looter.
== 13 of 16 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 12 2009 10:14 am
From: Michael Coburn
On Mon, 12 Oct 2009 06:23:44 -0700, tmclone wrote:
> What a moron. I'm a female homeowner in my 50s and I own my own
> business. I'm a self-employed, life-long democrat. I have lots of
> assests, but I still can't afford health insurance. It's more than my
> mortgage payment with a deductible I could never meet. You lose.
https://www.ehealthinsurance.com/individual-health-insurance
Says it will cost you $106 per month. So unless you don't have a
mortgage you are jerking us around. As to "meeting" your deductible,
that is irrelevant. Insurance is to protect assets. In that view the
poor don't actually need insurance because they get care in the emergency
rooms and they have no assets.
http://www.ehealthlink.com/Washington/IndivRates.asp
In Washington state if you are uninsurable it will cost you $400 a month
and again you would need to have a very small mortgage indeed.
Unfortunately, the system as currently designed foists the payments for
care of the poor onto the middle class. HR 3200 funds health care for
the poor by providing insurance paid for by the rich as opposed to the
middle class. Insurance is the tool used to accomplish this totally
proper cost shift. A progressive tax funded single payer system would do
it a lot better, but that cannot get through the bought and paid for
Senate.
--
"Those are my opinions and you can't have em" -- Bart Simpson
== 14 of 16 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 12 2009 10:15 am
From: Michael Coburn
On Mon, 12 Oct 2009 07:40:33 -0700, Wilson Woods wrote:
> tmclone wrote:
>> On Oct 11, 10:08 pm, Michael Coburn <mik...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 11 Oct 2009 18:22:56 -0700, tmclone wrote:
>>>> On Oct 10, 3:22 pm, Michael Coburn <mik...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>>>> Ans when morons refuse to insure their bodies, we end up paying for
>>>>> that negligence.
>>>> Wow, are you clueless. I don't have insurance, and I can assure you,
>>>> NO ONE
>>>> else pays for my healthcare. I simply don't get any. Period. Full
>>>> Stop. If I
>>>> could find a premium that was less than 35% of my gross income which
>>>> didn't
>>>> also have a $2k yearly deductible, I would consider it. Good thing
>>>> I'm healthy. The only "insurance" I can afford is a Planet Fitness
>>>> membership
>>>> which I use at least 6 times a week.
>>> This is the typical young squirt response. I would suggest that young
>>> people who have no assets do not feel they need medical insurance.
>>> When young and healthy and assetless then there is no personal threat:
>>> If you crack up on the freeway or a safe falls on you then you do a
>>> bankruptcy and lose nothing, sticking the rest of the society with the
>>> bill. Are you a member of the Young Republicans? DO you wear a
>>> coonskin cap?
>>>
>>>
>> What a moron. I'm a female homeowner in my 50s and I own my own
>> business. I'm a self-employed, life-long democrat. I have lots of
>> assests, but I still can't afford health insurance. It's more than my
>> mortgage payment with a deductible I could never meet. You lose.
>
> You may not have health insurance, but I find it impossible to believe
> you don't receive any health /care/.
Who the hell cares what _you_ believe. Your beliefs are insane.
--
"Those are my opinions and you can't have em" -- Bart Simpson
== 15 of 16 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 12 2009 10:16 am
From: Michael Coburn
On Sun, 11 Oct 2009 20:51:05 -0700, Wilson Woods wrote:
> tmclone, a looter, wrote:
>>> On Oct 10, 2:17 am, K <Kvisi...@live.con> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In fact, no one has a "right" to any material good or service.
>>>> Someone might choose to provide some goods and services to deadbeats,
>>>> but that doesn't imply a right to them; and the provider may
>>>> subsequently decide to stop providing them.
>>>> You have no more "right" to health care than you have to a big screen
>>>> TV, Hawaiian holidays, a car, or a lobster dinner. You don't have a
>>>> "right" to goods or services. If you want goods and services, you
>>>> must pay for them, or you must persuade someone to give them to you
>>>> voluntarily. If your powers of persuasion are weak, you'll fare
>>>> poorly. That's simply how it is, and it's good and just.
>>
>> Wrong. In the USA, all people have the "right" to a free, publicly-
>> provided education.
>
> No, they do not
Yes, moron. They do.
--
"Those are my opinions and you can't have em" -- Bart Simpson
== 16 of 16 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 12 2009 10:19 am
From: Michael Coburn
On Sun, 11 Oct 2009 20:45:40 -0700, Wilson Woods wrote:
> Michael Coburn, a looter, wrote:
>> On Sun, 11 Oct 2009 13:15:01 -0700, Wilson Woods wrote:
>>
>>> Michael Coburn, a looter, wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 21:52:27 -0700, Wilson Woods wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Michael Coburn, a looter, wrote:
>>>>>> On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 18:22:46 -0700, Wilson Woods wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Josh Rosenbluth, a looter, wrote:
>>>>>>>> Wilson Woods wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Josh Rosenbluth, a looter, wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Oct 10, 12:25 pm, Wilson Woods <banm...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Josh Rosenbluth, a looter, wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> K wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nickname is fuckwit, a looter, wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Oct 9, 9:34 pm, K <Kvisi...@live.con> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> missussex wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Oct 9, 10:46 am, K <Kvisi...@live.con> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You have no more "right" to health care than you have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to a big screen
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> TV, Hawaiian holidays, a car, or a lobster dinner.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You don't have a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "right" to goods or services. If you want goods and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> services, you must
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pay for them, or you must persuade someone to give
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them to you voluntarily. If your powers of persuasion
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are weak, you'll fare
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> poorly.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's simply how it is, and it's good and just.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No one has the "right" to clean air and water, roads, law
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> enforcement,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and firefighting services either.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's right.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> liar.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> No. No one has a right to any good or service.
>>>>>>>>>>>> True, but if the legislature passes laws that grant those
>>>>>>>>>>>> good or services, so be it. That's how majority rule works
>>>>>>>>>>>> in a representative,
>>>>>>>>>>>> constitutional democracy.
>>>>>>>>>>> So if the legislature passes a bill to force you to accept
>>>>>>>>>>> three families of illegal immigrants into your house, that's
>>>>>>>>>>> acceptable? If everyone in your community except you votes to
>>>>>>>>>>> make next Thursday "your day" to be chased through the streets
>>>>>>>>>>> and beaten with iron bars, is that
>>>>>>>>>>> acceptable?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> You don't seem to understand the nature of rights. Rights
>>>>>>>>>>> specify things that the government, and your fellow citizens,
>>>>>>>>>>> may not lawfully do to you even if an overwhelming majority
>>>>>>>>>>> want to do it.
>>>>>>>>>> So far, so good. Our system does overlay individual rights on
>>>>>>>>>> top of majority rule.
>>>>>>>>> That's false. The rights come *first*; majority rule is merely
>>>>>>>>> a form of government.
>>>>>>>> OK. Majority rule is overlayed on rights.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Seizing value
>>>>>>>>>>> you've created and earned and giving it away to deadbeats
>>>>>>>>>>> *ought* to be seen as an unacceptable violation of your basic
>>>>>>>>>>> human rights. We don't need a welfare system or food stamps
>>>>>>>>>>> or nationalized health care in order for unfortunate people to
>>>>>>>>>>> be cared for. None of that existed in the 19th century, and
>>>>>>>>>>> no one starved to death. People voluntarily will help those
>>>>>>>>>>> less fortunate; they always have.
>>>>>>>>>> And here, we part ways on both the law (I don't believe you
>>>>>>>>>> have a right to be free from taxation)
>>>>>>>>> You have a right to be free from the seizure of your property
>>>>>>>>> merely to give it to others. Government may tax to achieve the
>>>>>>>>> legitimate functions of government: police, national defense,
>>>>>>>>> courts, and operation of the departments of government.
>>>>>>>>> Government may not legitimately tax you in order to hand the
>>>>>>>>> money over to others. That's called looting.
>>>>>>>> You and I have different views about the legitimate functions of
>>>>>>>> government. I would include health care for all
>>>>>>> You are wrong. That's stealing wealth from people to give it to
>>>>>>> others - not a legitimate function of government.
>>>>>> But you believe that it _IS_ a legitimate function of government.
>>>>> No.
>>>> But it is you who believe that economic rent is not appropriated by
>>>> government backed claims to ownership.
>>> You don't even know what "economic rent" means. Stop using
>>> terminology you don't understand.
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_rent
>>
>> I suggest that you first chase down all the on-line references for this
>> articles to verify that the article is absolutely correct and in
>> agreement with most economists both classical and neoclassical.
>>
>> Then you can take a look at who the primary author is.
>>
>>>> It is you who believe that oil
>>>> found under the ranch of the Texas oil man is his property even
>>>> though he has done absolutely nothing to _earn_ it
>>> Irrelevant. Sports superstars don't do anything to "earn" their
>>> incomparable talent, and people with extremely high IQs also don't do
>>> anything to "earn" the immense reward that usually comes to them for
>>> their brilliance. That doesn't change anything: it's theirs, and no
>>> one may rightfully take it from them.
>>
>> Who the hell do you think you are dealing with, moron?
>
> A pompous ass who doesn't know what the term means, that's who.
I forget who I am dealing with here. MIRROR TIME, CHUMP.
--
"Those are my opinions and you can't have em" -- Bart Simpson
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TOPIC: 2012 forcast: Food riots, ghost malls, mob rule, riots, terror
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/e6d8859d25e5ef7b?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 12 2009 8:51 am
From: phil scott
On Oct 11, 11:42 pm, Curly Surmudgeon <CurlySurmudg...@live.com>
wrote:
> On Sun, 11 Oct 2009 19:45:44 -0700, phil scott <p...@philscott.net> wrote:
> > On Oct 11, 1:36 pm, Jeff M <NoS...@NoNoThanks.Org> wrote:
> >> m...@privacy.net wrote:
> >> > phil scott <p...@philscott.net> wrote:
>
> >> >> I dont think we are looking at armageddon in the faintest.... we are
> >> >> looking at vast changes, and for many individuals it will be nasty
> >> >> to the core, as it is now. but the larger world and national
> >> >> culture will advance.... thinking individuals will be able to dodge
> >> >> most of those bullets, enough at least to have food and shelter.
>
> >> > Agree
>
> >> Me too.
>
> >> > These are fundamental changes coming that would come regardless of
> >> > who is in power or how much we wish they would NOT change
>
> >> > Agree on brick and mortar being dead.... already do most of my
> >> > shopping online
>
> >> > Agree on housing being ridiculous over capacity!
>
> >> Yep. I'm waay over-housed.
>
> > real estate should tank another 50% or more within a year or two max.
> > and not rebound because 80 m baby boomers are retiring, then dying off.
> > meantime desperate local govts are taxing it heavily.
>
> > depending on your situation, it may or may not pay to stay put or sell
>
> I'm betting that will not occur.
>
> Property prices may continue to slump in some locals but nation-wide have
> already leveled off and begun to climb in some regions.
>
> --
> Regards, Curly
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Beats the Rose Parade:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVjBdnyiy-M
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
I think real estate has another 50% to 80% down side left...in todays
dollars. I think you will see half of that in the next 12
months...and the rest over the next 5 years... then stay down for the
next 20 to 30 years or long.
why? boomers retiring then dropping deader than hell.. 80 million
over the next 10 years
insufficient replacements... these cant afford the ppty tax so move to
smaller digs or offshore by the millions until they die.... then that
house goes onto an already glutted market.
and the replacements, insufficient in numbers and poorly educated
48th in the world in math/ science. that leads to low wage jobs...
the brain work is fast moving to china or india, what stays in the US
must compete in the world market at similar rates.
there are many other factors..some valid, some smoke.. oil shortage
(probably smoke, given our 200 year supply of natural gas in north
america, and the fact we have not deep sea drilled yet).
global warming? will simply kill off a few billion excess
population, but that would drive realestate prices down. same with
pandemic disease, inevitable..
no wages...no spending.. cant afford to pay high prices for homes.
***
standard of living is the real issue...today we work ourselves to
death in the US so we can get fat and die stressed out with an ugly
wife /husband... thats not quality.
we will change to optonal life styles.. much less space and costs..I
live on a boat, 200 dollars slip rental..taxes almost zero. I work 10
to 20 hours a week max.. usually 5 hours a week.. pod living is
next... Harvard U has studies on it.
Large fixed homes and careers? are insane imo. the house ties you
to a local job market where you can be exploited ..when I was
engineering I traveled the US, and made 50% more than my local counter
parts, and gained skills I could gain no other way. thats next for
the rest of us, imo.
Phil scott
== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 12 2009 9:47 am
From: me@privacy.net
phil scott <phil@philscott.net> wrote:
>Large fixed homes and careers? are insane imo. the house ties you
>to a local job market where you can be exploited ..when I was
>engineering I traveled the US, and made 50% more than my local counter
>parts, and gained skills I could gain no other way. thats next for
>the rest of us, imo.
What type of engineering did you do Phil?
=========================================================
Try to make me, fuckwit - I'll shoot you dead, and laugh about it over a
beer later. Then I'll stub a cigar butt out on your orphan child's head.-Wilson Woods
==============================================================================
TOPIC: Illegals, illegals everywhere -- as 10,000 Americans apply for 90
factory jobs
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/ce9ef9abee53a568?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 12 2009 8:53 am
From: martin
On Oct 11, 8:05 pm, "GWashingtonFan" <GWashingtonFan_USA> wrote:
> (Note: As I write this there are an estimated 25 million+ illegal
> aliens inside the United States, *many*, *many* of whom receive
> government checks directly every month ostensibly "for the children"
> aka their swarms of anchor babies.)
>
> 10,000 apply for 90 factory jobs
>
> By Jere Downs
> courier-journal.com
> October 8, 2009
>
> http://www.courier-journal.com/article/20091008/NEWS01/910080326/1003/BU
> SINESS/10+000+apply+for+90+factory+jobs
>
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> What Would America's Founders Say?
>
> The two enemies of the people are criminals
> and government, so let us tie the second down
> with the chains of the Constitution so the
> second will not become the legalized version
> of the first.
> -- Thomas Jefferson
>
> Those who hammer their guns into plows will
> plow for those who do not.
> --Thomas Jefferson
>
> It does not take a majority to prevail ... but
> rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on
> setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of
> men.
> --Samuel Adams
>
> The strongest reason for the people to retain
> the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last
> resort, to protect themselves against tyranny
> in government.
> -- Thomas Jefferson
>
> A free people ought not only to be armed and
> disciplined, but they should have sufficient
> arms and ammunition to maintain a status of
> independence from any who might attempt to
> abuse them, which would include their own
> government."
> -- George Washington
>
> No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms.
> -- Thomas Jefferson
>
> If the freedom of speech is taken away then
> dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep, to
> the slaughter.
> -- George Washington
>
> When governments fear the people there is liberty.
> When the people fear the government there is tyranny.
> -- Thomas Jefferson
>
> Oppressors can tyrannize only when they achieve a
> standing army, an enslaved press, and a disarmed
> populace.
> -- James Madison
>
> If the representatives of the people betray
> their constituents, there is then no resource
> left but in the exertion of that original
> right of self-defense which is paramount to
> all positive forms of government ... The
> citizens must rush tumultuously to arms,
> without concert, without system, without
> resource; except in their courage and despair
> ... The natural strength of the people in a
> large community, in proportion to the artificial
> strength of the government, is greater than in a
> small ... the people, without exaggeration, may
> be said to be entirely the masters of their own fate.
> -- Alexander Hamilton
>
> All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people
> of good conscience to remain silent.
> -- Thomas Jefferson
>
> Every government degenerates when trusted to the
> rulers of the people alone. The people themselves
> are its only safe depositories.
> -- Thomas Jefferson
>
> As our enemies have found we can reason like men,
> so now let us show them we can fight like men also.
> -- Thomas Jefferson
>
> Do you want to know who you are? Don't ask. Act!
> Action will delineate and define you.
> -- Thomas Jefferson
>
> Merchants have no country. The mere spot they
> stand on does not constitute so strong an
> attachment as that from which they draw their gains.
> -- Thomas Jefferson
>
> I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy
> of our monied corporations which dare already to
> challenge our government to a trial by strength,
> and bid defiance to the laws of our country.
> -- Thomas Jefferson
>
> I believe that banking institutions are more
> dangerous to our liberties than standing armies.
> -- Thomas Jefferson
>
> Experience hath shewn, that even under the best
> forms of government those entrusted with power
> have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted
> it into tyranny.
> -- Thomas Jefferson
>
> A Founding Father speaks out on
> what's nowadays called "political correctness":
>
> A Founding Father speaks out on what's nowadays
> called "political correctness":
>
> Do not suffer yourselves to be wheeled out of
> your liberty to publish by any pretenses of
> politeness, delicacy or decency. These, as they
> are so often used, are but three different names
> for hypocrisy, chicanery and cowardice.
> --John Adams
> --
Uncle Suckemoff bows and scrapes before the latino invaders.
(Continuing the positions
of Whorehey Bush and Shitstain McCain)
tt
http://www.wvwnews.net/ Western Voices
==============================================================================
TOPIC: AT&T Mobility Offers Unlimited Prepaid for $60/month--Compare this with
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 12 2009 8:57 am
From: nospam
In article <4ad2ccac$0$1648$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net>, SMS
<scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
> Following the lead of Verizon's MVNO PagePlus, AT&T (starting today) is
> offering unlimited voice and text on its prepaid service.
it's not that new, they've actually been test marketing it for a while.
> PagePlus AT&T Straight Talk
> Additional Data $1.20/MB $2/MB Not available
wrong. data packages can be added.
> Lowest Cost $33/month* $60+/month $45/month
wrong. it's 60, not 60+.
> Fees/Taxes Included Extra None
very wrong.
> 2G Coverage Excellent Good Good
> 3G Coverage Excellent Fair Excellent
depends on location.
> *Regular rate is $39.95 per month, but account can be funded with refill
> cards that include greater than the face value, and that are sold at a
> discount off the regular price.
as are refill cards for any prepaid service.
==============================================================================
TOPIC: "needs" vs "mere wants": a false and useless distinction
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/f6c8d5277333b7c2?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 12 2009 9:16 am
From: Wilson Woods
The looters often posit a distinction between "needs" and "wants", or as
the looters often disparage people's desires, "mere wants". Sometimes
this phony distinction is further disparaged by expressing it as
"necessities" vs "luxuries".
The distinction is bogus and useless. There are *only* wants; there is
no such thing as a "necessity". People want things: food, shelter,
clothing, transportation, health care, entertainment, recreation, etc.
None is a "necessity" in any absolute sense. Things are only needed as
instruments to the achievement of a want.
Things are needed only in an instrumental sense to satisfy wants. If
you want to continue living, then you "need" food and water. If you
want to play golf, then you need golf clubs. If you want to attend a
concert, then you need a ticket.
No one "needs" health care, in any absolute sense. People want health
care in order to affect the quantity and quality of life.
A bogus distinction between wants and needs cannot serve as the basis
for taking resources from those who produce them and showering them on
parasites who don't produce enough value to buy their own medical care.
== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 12 2009 10:11 am
From: Mrs Irish Mike
I want you to go away. You need to get a life. EZ peasy.
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TOPIC: recover heat from clothes dryer?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/b147b338ff73f881?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 12 2009 10:16 am
From: Mrs Irish Mike
On Oct 12, 4:53 am, RickMerrill <Rick0.merr...@gmail.lessspam.com>
wrote:
> sr wrote:
> > For Lint. I've used a nylon stocking, you know , those panty hose things
> > over the duct
> > "Lou" <lpog...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >news:hato4p$56l$1@news.eternal-september.org...
> >> "RickMerrill" <Rick0.merr...@gmail.lessspam.com> wrote in message
> >>news:hate03$f5c$3@news.eternal-september.org...
> >>> Has anyone found a way to recover the heat without
> >>> too much humidity and lint?
> >> Most of the heat generated by a clothes dryer is used to evaporate the
> >> water
> >> contained in the clothes - to get it back, you'd have to condense the
> >> vapor
> >> back to liquid water. Such machines exist - they're called condensing
> >> dryers. They're not cheap.
>
> >> If you just direct the vent from a normal dryer inside, the amount of
> >> humidity is the same as you'd get if you hung the clothes up to dry
> >> inside,
> >> though it probably gets dumped into the room in a shorter amount of time.
>
> >> I'd worry more about lint - breathing it in.
>
> I've used the nylon stocking trick also - but they are harder to find
> these days!
>
> I guess what I need is a way to measure the humidity remotely.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Seems to me that additional humididty is not a bad thing in the winter.
==============================================================================
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