Frugal Living: misc.consumers.frugal-living - 25 new messages in 11 topics

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* when plywood isn't plywood - did I just get reamed? - 4 messages, 4 authors
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* ۞●۞●۞ Cheap price Wholesale Air Force One Shoes at www.fjrjtrade.com <paypal
payment> - 1 messages, 1 author
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* ❉♡❉Wholesale cheap Nike AirMax shoes at www.ecyaya.com 【paypal payment】 -
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* free shipping (www.headexporter.com ) cheap wholesale YvesSaintLaurent
sandals,louboutin sandals,YSL sandals - 1 messages, 1 author
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* Why Graduate Degrees Are a Rip Off: Crunching the Numbers Submitted by G.E.
Miller on Thursday, 21 January 2010Why Graduate Degrees Are a Rip Off:
Crunching the Numbers - 8 messages, 4 authors
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* Saving time when whipping eggs... - 1 messages, 1 author
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* ☎ ☞wholesale cheap brands handbags and purse by paypal in www.ecyaya.com - 2
messages, 1 author
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* What's on the Box? - 3 messages, 3 authors
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* Using Bicarbonate Against the Swine Flu & Colds - 2 messages, 2 authors
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* This death is perhaps the catalyst for change - 1 messages, 1 author
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* What will be the last death before change happens? - 1 messages, 1 author
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==============================================================================
TOPIC: when plywood isn't plywood - did I just get reamed?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/4d38863eed5257ed?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Sat, Jan 23 2010 8:54 pm
From: Al

On Jan 23, 10:02 pm, Ohioguy <n...@none.net> wrote:
> We are buying a ~30 year old HUD owned house using the FHA 203k rehab
> loan program, which bundles the repair costs into the loan. As part of
> this, we had to get everything in writing from the general contractor,
> then submit it all to be reviewed. Funds are put into escrow until a
> final inspection, when the funds are released to the general contractor
> as each of the necessary repairs have been deemed to have been performed
> adequately.
>
> Around 3 months ago, I first spoke with the general contractor, and
> went over what I wanted done. He tried to convince me to use OSB -
> oriented strand board for the roof, but I said no. The current roof was
> 30 years old, and a bit rotten up near the roof vent. It was only 3/8"
> thick, and the shingles were in horrible shape, which was probably why
> the plywood was going bad. Anyway, I wanted 3/4" roof grade plywood to
> be used, especially when the quotes were about 40% less than what I was
> quoted for the plywood back around 2003. (who knew prices were that
> cyclical?) I realized I would be paying more for 3/4" thick plywood,
> and also for going with plywood instead of OSB, but I didn't care. It
> means more to me knowing that we would have a stronger roof in the case
> of very high winds or storms.
>
> The general contractor did manage to convince me, after I did some
> homework, that ridge vents would probably be the best choice for venting
> the attic. Ridge vents run the length of the roof peak - up where the
> hottest air gathers. We also did a walkaround, and I pointed out a roof
> mounted DirecTV dish that I wanted removed. I've never liked having
> screws going down through the shingles, since that just introduces a
> place for leaks.
>
> Fast forward to 9 days ago. After several extensions (delays), we
> finally closed on the house and got the locks re-keyed. I met with the
> general contractor, and gave him a key. I again briefly mentioned that
> I wanted him to use 3/4" plywood on the roof. He called on Sunday and
> said he thought the crew could get the roof done sometime this week.
>
> 3 days ago, on Wednesday, I got a call in the afternoon telling me
> that the roof was completed, which was kind of a surprise. I had been
> hoping to go up and watch them get started. I went up to the house on
> Thursday to take pictures of the roof, and also to do some work on the
> basement with my son. As I was taking photos, I immediately noticed
> that the DirecTV dish was still up there.
>
> I wondered - did they even replace the old plywood with new? Then I
> walked around to the other side, and noticed a full sheet of OSB leaning
> against the house.. Oh, no, I thought.
>
> I ran inside, went up to the attic, and took a look. Yes, they used
> oriented strand board on the entire roof. Plus, guess what? There was
> no ridge vent installed. Instead, they put those rectangular vents in
> that stick up from the roof, but you have to saw rectangular holes in
> the wood for them.
>
> So, in a nutshell, they didn't do 3 things that the general
> contractor had said they would do. The main one, written into the
> contract, was using plywood. (the other two were verbal)
>
> I was furious enough at that point that I considered driving right
> back home, giving him a call, and telling him he was fired. I felt like
> I could no longer trust him to do the rest of the projects properly.
>
> Eventually, I called him late yesterday, and here is what he said.
>
> 1) he said he left two messages over the past week regarding the roof on
> my answering machine (possible, because our answering machine started
> acting up about 10 days ago, and I remember the delete button sticking
> twice) So part of this was a telephone communication problem - he says
> he called and in his message said he would be doing certain things, and
> using certain materials. If I had gotten the message, I would have
> known when they were starting the work, and would have been on hand to
> say "No way, jose!" to the OSB. As it was, I was told after the work
> was finished, and had to discover the discrepancies myself.
>
> 2) regarding not using plywood as the written contract says he will do,
> he claims that plywood is now a general term that includes both OSB and
> PCX, the latter which he says is the technical term for plywood. He is
> saying that if I had specified PCX, then I would have gotten what I am
> calling plywood. However, he says that since I just said plywood, a
> general term, OSB is included in that terminology, and that is why I
> ended up with that on my house - since it is now the industry standard
> for roofs.
>
> He further claims that OSB now is actually superior to plywood for
> roofs, and that it was exactly the same price as the roof grade plywood
> I had priced. He is saying that I actually got a longer lasting, more
> waterproof, superior roof because he used the OSB.
>
> Frankly, I feel that his claim that there is some confusion about
> what the term "plywood" means is a load of crap. I also think his claim
> that OSB is superior has no merit. I am wondering if he is simply
> saying all of this so that he can defuse the situation, and cover
> himself for not following the contract. I seriously doubt that we could
> force him to rip off the roofing and redo it with plywood at this point,
> so I'm guessing that I'm stuck with the OSB. However, I still wonder if
> he got a price break by using OSB instead of plywood, and if he is
> pocketing the difference.
>
> However, he is the professional, and he has much more experience than
> I do regarding all of this.
>
> I am hoping that some of you out there have some
> construction/building experience, and might be able to shed some
> educated light on the situation.

Almost certainly he got a price break on OSB instead of plywood. That
and availability is why he did it. Also, OSB is much more user
friendly for the installers. That last feature can make for a better
quality job too. Still, I feel your pain in not getting what you asked
for. I had two roofs removed from a house and the third finally done
the way I agreed to for a third party. (This was insurance work and
the contractor wanted to maintain his status with State Farm by not
screwing customers.)

Ridge vents were the rage of the industry when they first came out.
Since then, studies have shown that many do not perform as well in the
long term due to plugging of the small vents with debris. Many
contractors have gone back to the tried and true pot vents. I'd
probably let that item fly.

Why was the TV dish still there? Apparently they only PATCHED the roof
and figured they could do it while you were looking the other way.
Pretty stupid of them to leave the dish installed as evidence. Or did
they re-install the dish?

I assume you got all these specs in writing to begin with. Changes
should be in writing as well. I don't buy the story about leaving you
a message and going with whatever the hell he wanted to do.

Bottom line: I would inspect that roof from every angle, particularly
from the possibility that the entire deck was not replaced as
specified. If you can verify that, I personally would demand a tear-
off and replacement. Actually, I'd try for some release from payment
and have the work done properly. My niece had a similar problem with a
roof job contracted through Lowes two years ago. It was a real joke
with broken new shingles and an incorrect nail pattern. After much
wrangling, Lowes ate about $6,000 and the niece had a quality job done
for about $4,500. It seems that roofing has become as sleazy as
transmission rebuilding because the flaws are so easily hidden.

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Sun, Jan 24 2010 6:29 am
From: "Bill"

No plywood does NOT mean OSB!

Go to several stores and ask to look at the plywood and see what they show
you.

Then ask to look at OSB and see what they show you.

I would get a lawyer and together you write the contractor demanding that
the job be done as you wanted.

"Ohioguy" wrote in message
> We are buying a ~30 year old HUD owned house using the FHA 203k rehab
> loan program, which bundles the repair costs into the loan. As part of
> this, we had to get everything in writing from the general contractor,
> then submit it all to be reviewed. Funds are put into escrow until a
> final inspection, when the funds are released to the general contractor as
> each of the necessary repairs have been deemed to have been performed
> adequately.
>
> Around 3 months ago, I first spoke with the general contractor, and went
> over what I wanted done. He tried to convince me to use OSB - oriented
> strand board for the roof, but I said no. The current roof was 30 years
> old, and a bit rotten up near the roof vent. It was only 3/8" thick, and
> the shingles were in horrible shape, which was probably why the plywood
> was going bad. Anyway, I wanted 3/4" roof grade plywood to be used,
> especially when the quotes were about 40% less than what I was quoted for
> the plywood back around 2003. (who knew prices were that cyclical?) I
> realized I would be paying more for 3/4" thick plywood, and also for going
> with plywood instead of OSB, but I didn't care. It means more to me
> knowing that we would have a stronger roof in the case of very high winds
> or storms.
>
> The general contractor did manage to convince me, after I did some
> homework, that ridge vents would probably be the best choice for venting
> the attic. Ridge vents run the length of the roof peak - up where the
> hottest air gathers. We also did a walkaround, and I pointed out a roof
> mounted DirecTV dish that I wanted removed. I've never liked having
> screws going down through the shingles, since that just introduces a place
> for leaks.
>
> Fast forward to 9 days ago. After several extensions (delays), we
> finally closed on the house and got the locks re-keyed. I met with the
> general contractor, and gave him a key. I again briefly mentioned that I
> wanted him to use 3/4" plywood on the roof. He called on Sunday and said
> he thought the crew could get the roof done sometime this week.
>
> 3 days ago, on Wednesday, I got a call in the afternoon telling me that
> the roof was completed, which was kind of a surprise. I had been hoping
> to go up and watch them get started. I went up to the house on Thursday
> to take pictures of the roof, and also to do some work on the basement
> with my son. As I was taking photos, I immediately noticed that the
> DirecTV dish was still up there.
>
> I wondered - did they even replace the old plywood with new? Then I
> walked around to the other side, and noticed a full sheet of OSB leaning
> against the house.. Oh, no, I thought.
>
> I ran inside, went up to the attic, and took a look. Yes, they used
> oriented strand board on the entire roof. Plus, guess what? There was no
> ridge vent installed. Instead, they put those rectangular vents in that
> stick up from the roof, but you have to saw rectangular holes in the wood
> for them.
>
> So, in a nutshell, they didn't do 3 things that the general contractor
> had said they would do. The main one, written into the contract, was
> using plywood. (the other two were verbal)
>
> I was furious enough at that point that I considered driving right back
> home, giving him a call, and telling him he was fired. I felt like I
> could no longer trust him to do the rest of the projects properly.
>
> Eventually, I called him late yesterday, and here is what he said.
>
> 1) he said he left two messages over the past week regarding the roof on
> my answering machine (possible, because our answering machine started
> acting up about 10 days ago, and I remember the delete button sticking
> twice) So part of this was a telephone communication problem - he says he
> called and in his message said he would be doing certain things, and using
> certain materials. If I had gotten the message, I would have known when
> they were starting the work, and would have been on hand to say "No way,
> jose!" to the OSB. As it was, I was told after the work was finished, and
> had to discover the discrepancies myself.
>
> 2) regarding not using plywood as the written contract says he will do, he
> claims that plywood is now a general term that includes both OSB and PCX,
> the latter which he says is the technical term for plywood. He is saying
> that if I had specified PCX, then I would have gotten what I am calling
> plywood. However, he says that since I just said plywood, a general term,
> OSB is included in that terminology, and that is why I ended up with that
> on my house - since it is now the industry standard for roofs.
>
> He further claims that OSB now is actually superior to plywood for
> roofs, and that it was exactly the same price as the roof grade plywood I
> had priced. He is saying that I actually got a longer lasting, more
> waterproof, superior roof because he used the OSB.
>
> Frankly, I feel that his claim that there is some confusion about what
> the term "plywood" means is a load of crap. I also think his claim that
> OSB is superior has no merit. I am wondering if he is simply saying all
> of this so that he can defuse the situation, and cover himself for not
> following the contract. I seriously doubt that we could force him to rip
> off the roofing and redo it with plywood at this point, so I'm guessing
> that I'm stuck with the OSB. However, I still wonder if he got a price
> break by using OSB instead of plywood, and if he is pocketing the
> difference.
>
> However, he is the professional, and he has much more experience than I
> do regarding all of this.
>
> I am hoping that some of you out there have some construction/building
> experience, and might be able to shed some educated light on the
> situation.

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Sun, Jan 24 2010 10:32 am
From: hchickpea@hotmail.com

Yawn,

Was the contract in writing? It sounds like you may have - "we had to
get everything in writing from the general contractor, then it all to
be reviewed. Funds are put into escrow until a final inspection"
and-

"So, in a nutshell, they didn't do 3 things that the general
contractor had said they would do. The main one, written into the
contract, was using plywood."

If it was, have it ripped out and redone. If not, you learned lesson
101.

As for the ridge vent - I wouldn't have one. Most of them look cheesy
and wobbly, the difference in temp at the very peak and a foot down is
minimal, in driven rain they can leak water, and in a tornado or
hurricane they are a disaster.

Screws being a problem through the roof? Nah, not unless the wood is
rotted. Bad flashing is far worse of a problem.

OSB vs. plywood - the distinction is far less than it used to be. We
all know how plywood is made. The strength comes from the
cross-lamination and glue bonds. Any single sheet of the veneer used
is almost like paper. A wooden board of 3/4" thickness is inherently
weak along a couple axises.

The old OSB takes the wood strands and semi-randomly compresses them
into a sheet. because the orientation is random, the strength and
deformation resistance is fairly low. Newer ways of making OSB do
actual orientation of the strands, where a layer of strands is laid
down going in one direction, then another layer in a direction 90
degrees from that, and so on. The gluing process is also apparently
improved.

Does all this make OSB a superior material? It may depend on the
application. There is a crushing of the wood from the process that
breaks the stiffness. Only some of that can be recouped with
increased glue. Plywood is also lighter because of the air pockets in
the cells. However, resistance to a direct hit can sometimes be
greater in OSB because of the increased mass and multiple vectors for
direction of force.

Key issues are the span - OSB will sag more readily if not supported,
and weight - OSB is an increased load. In resistance to a twisting
motion along the surface of the sheet, both are incredibly strong. In
resistance to a span load, with both ends supported and a load in the
center, the OSB will deform more easily even though it may have equal
strength to an actual puncture. The glues used in OSB are
water-resistant if not waterproof, and the coating of the strands is
significant. Plywood, OTOH, can easily delaminate if it gets wet,
turning it into wet sheets of paperlike wood.

On Sat, 23 Jan 2010 22:02:21 -0500, Ohioguy <none@none.net> wrote:

> We are buying a ~30 year old HUD owned house using the FHA 203k rehab
>loan program, which bundles the repair costs into the loan. As part of
>this, we had to get everything in writing from the general contractor,
>then it all to be reviewed. Funds are put into escrow until a
>final inssubmit pection, when the funds are released to the general contractor
>as each of the necessary repairs have been deemed to have been performed
>adequately.
>
> Around 3 months ago, I first spoke with the general contractor, and
>went over what I wanted done. He tried to convince me to use OSB -
>oriented strand board for the roof, but I said no. The current roof was
>30 years old, and a bit rotten up near the roof vent. It was only 3/8"
>thick, and the shingles were in horrible shape, which was probably why
>the plywood was going bad. Anyway, I wanted 3/4" roof grade plywood to
>be used, especially when the quotes were about 40% less than what I was
>quoted for the plywood back around 2003. (who knew prices were that
>cyclical?) I realized I would be paying more for 3/4" thick plywood,
>and also for going with plywood instead of OSB, but I didn't care. It
>means more to me knowing that we would have a stronger roof in the case
>of very high winds or storms.
>
> The general contractor did manage to convince me, after I did some
>homework, that ridge vents would probably be the best choice for venting
>the attic. Ridge vents run the length of the roof peak - up where the
>hottest air gathers. We also did a walkaround, and I pointed out a roof
>mounted DirecTV dish that I wanted removed. I've never liked having
>screws going down through the shingles, since that just introduces a
>place for leaks.
>
> Fast forward to 9 days ago. After several extensions (delays), we
>finally closed on the house and got the locks re-keyed. I met with the
>general contractor, and gave him a key. I again briefly mentioned that
>I wanted him to use 3/4" plywood on the roof. He called on Sunday and
>said he thought the crew could get the roof done sometime this week.
>
> 3 days ago, on Wednesday, I got a call in the afternoon telling me
>that the roof was completed, which was kind of a surprise. I had been
>hoping to go up and watch them get started. I went up to the house on
>Thursday to take pictures of the roof, and also to do some work on the
>basement with my son. As I was taking photos, I immediately noticed
>that the DirecTV dish was still up there.
>
> I wondered - did they even replace the old plywood with new? Then I
>walked around to the other side, and noticed a full sheet of OSB leaning
>against the house.. Oh, no, I thought.
>
> I ran inside, went up to the attic, and took a look. Yes, they used
>oriented strand board on the entire roof. Plus, guess what? There was
>no ridge vent installed. Instead, they put those rectangular vents in
>that stick up from the roof, but you have to saw rectangular holes in
>the wood for them.
>
> So, in a nutshell, they didn't do 3 things that the general
>contractor had said they would do. The main one, written into the
>contract, was using plywood. (the other two were verbal)
>
> I was furious enough at that point that I considered driving right
>back home, giving him a call, and telling him he was fired. I felt like
>I could no longer trust him to do the rest of the projects properly.
>
> Eventually, I called him late yesterday, and here is what he said.
>
>1) he said he left two messages over the past week regarding the roof on
>my answering machine (possible, because our answering machine started
>acting up about 10 days ago, and I remember the delete button sticking
>twice) So part of this was a telephone communication problem - he says
>he called and in his message said he would be doing certain things, and
>using certain materials. If I had gotten the message, I would have
>known when they were starting the work, and would have been on hand to
>say "No way, jose!" to the OSB. As it was, I was told after the work
>was finished, and had to discover the discrepancies myself.
>
>2) regarding not using plywood as the written contract says he will do,
>he claims that plywood is now a general term that includes both OSB and
>PCX, the latter which he says is the technical term for plywood. He is
>saying that if I had specified PCX, then I would have gotten what I am
>calling plywood. However, he says that since I just said plywood, a
>general term, OSB is included in that terminology, and that is why I
>ended up with that on my house - since it is now the industry standard
>for roofs.
>
> He further claims that OSB now is actually superior to plywood for
>roofs, and that it was exactly the same price as the roof grade plywood
>I had priced. He is saying that I actually got a longer lasting, more
>waterproof, superior roof because he used the OSB.
>
> Frankly, I feel that his claim that there is some confusion about
>what the term "plywood" means is a load of crap. I also think his claim
>that OSB is superior has no merit. I am wondering if he is simply
>saying all of this so that he can defuse the situation, and cover
>himself for not following the contract. I seriously doubt that we could
>force him to rip off the roofing and redo it with plywood at this point,
>so I'm guessing that I'm stuck with the OSB. However, I still wonder if
>he got a price break by using OSB instead of plywood, and if he is
>pocketing the difference.
>
> However, he is the professional, and he has much more experience than
>I do regarding all of this.
>
> I am hoping that some of you out there have some
>construction/building experience, and might be able to shed some
>educated light on the situation.

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Sun, Jan 24 2010 11:33 am
From: "The Henchman"

"Al" <albundy2@mailinator.com> wrote in message
news:87ff3a06-e634-4f95-a0ee-83c0e9d0d6d2@p24g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
> On Jan 23, 10:02 pm, Ohioguy <n...@none.net> wrote:

>
> Why was the TV dish still there? Apparently they only PATCHED the roof
> and figured they could do it while you were looking the other way.
> Pretty stupid of them to leave the dish installed as evidence. Or did
> they re-install the dish?

> Bottom line: I would inspect that roof from every angle, particularly
> from the possibility that the entire deck was not replaced as
> specified.

I would strongly agree. Make sure the dish was not reinstalled. Look for
signs of bolt removal, fresh scratches etc. that'll be your tip if the roof
was not fully replaced.

As for OSB that is what I call Waferboard. Most new homes in US and Canada
use it for roofing and walls. These days the strands of wood are aligned
for stronger "ply" and axis. Also it's more environmentally friendly cause
limbs and I think even leaves get used in it and the resins don't admit mush
formaldehyde. insurance companies around here care about formaldehyde.
Also, contractors have told me that OSB/waferboard can be treated with
anti-termite and anti-mould stuff. The problem with OSB is if the corners
or edges are damaged, they swell. Swelled edges cause up heaving in your
roof. Find out if they used correct sheathing.

You may actually be getting a better roof than you asked form. Make sure
they used "exterior" coded OSB This should be painted on the wood somewhere
with a number 2. I'm in Canada but almost all OSB sold in the US is
Canadian so the number 2 or exterior should mean the same specs.

Also there has been in influx of Chinese plywood around here. I sell
cutting tools, and contractors are some of my customers. We've been told of
3 complaints on 7/16" and 5/8" plywood recently. Ununiform veneer, veneers
layers from from different woods, and bond that doesn't stay bond. Veneers
that split far too easya dn shrink over a small amount of time in dry
conditions. I bet money the origin is from China or Brazil.

IMHO Waferboard/OSB wood is a better choice for your roof. 20 or 30 years
ago it would not have been, but in 2009/2010 I think it is. But that's my 2
cents.

==============================================================================
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TOPIC: Why Graduate Degrees Are a Rip Off: Crunching the Numbers Submitted by
G.E. Miller on Thursday, 21 January 2010Why Graduate Degrees Are a Rip Off:
Crunching the Numbers
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/a7e5a8b99c091902?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 8 ==
Date: Sun, Jan 24 2010 5:32 am
From: Shawn Hirn

In article <hjffjt$ha8$1@news.eternal-september.org>,
"Bob F" <bobnospam@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> If money is the only reason for getting the degree, you may be right. There
> are lots of other reasons. Plenty of scientists get advanced degrees because
> that is their love. If MBA's are the only advanced degree you know of, you
> are living in a hole.

Exactly. The author also doesn't factor in the fact that many people,
including me, are going to graduate school on a scholarship or through
employee tuition remission. I am working on an MS degree and I pay
nothing for my tuition, although I do pay for my own books and any extra
fees such as my school's technology fee, but even with the fees and book
costs, its a bargain.

== 2 of 8 ==
Date: Sun, Jan 24 2010 8:34 am
From: gheston@hiwaay.net (Gary Heston)

>"Ablang" wrote in message
>Why Graduate Degrees Are a Rip Off: Crunching the Numbers
>Submitted by G.E. Miller on Thursday, 21 January 2010
[ ... ]

>According to a recent Wall Street Journal article, the average salary
>of a full-time worker with a bachelor's degree is $50,900. Those with
>a master's degree averaged $61,300.

[ ... ]

>Tuition ($98K ) + Opportunity cost of lost wages ($102K) + Room/board/
>tuition/other ($50K) = $250K

[ ... ]

>How Long Would it Take to Make your Money Back on a Graduate Degree?

>Well, if we're going by the WSJ averages above, we're looking at an
>average annual salary increase of $10,400 with the grad degree. At
>these numbers, it would take you nearly 25 years to make your money
>back on your initial investment (I'll be kind and leave out the cost
>of the loans). [ ... ]

Sorry, you missed a minor issue--that $10,400 is pre-tax; after tax
money available to actually pay toward the cost would be about $6,760,
assuming an aggregate tax rate of about 35% (income, FICA, etc.).

That changes the payback period to the 37 year range.

Gary

--
Gary Heston gheston@hiwaay.net http://www.thebreastcancersite.com/

"It's kind of hard to rally 'round a math class."
Paul "Bear" Bryant

== 3 of 8 ==
Date: Sun, Jan 24 2010 10:10 am
From: "h"

"Bill" <billnomailnospamx@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:7s1dgqFj4bU1@mid.individual.net...

>
> Then there's the opportunity cost of an MBA: In other words. The lost
> income during the two plus years you are going to school full time.
> Let's just take the average annual bachelor's degree salary and double
> that, which would equate to $101,800 (for me, it's more than that) -
> but I'm trying to be conservative here.
>

Or, like most of us, you continue to WORK full time while you go to school
full time. 2 years and finished. Geez, you never considered that option,
huh?

== 4 of 8 ==
Date: Sun, Jan 24 2010 11:03 am
From: Les Cargill

h wrote:
> "Bill" <billnomailnospamx@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:7s1dgqFj4bU1@mid.individual.net...
>
>> Then there's the opportunity cost of an MBA: In other words. The lost
>> income during the two plus years you are going to school full time.
>> Let's just take the average annual bachelor's degree salary and double
>> that, which would equate to $101,800 (for me, it's more than that) -
>> but I'm trying to be conservative here.
>>
>
> Or, like most of us, you continue to WORK full time while you go to school
> full time. 2 years and finished. Geez, you never considered that option,
> huh?
>
>

That's probably appropriate for an MBA. For a discipline which is
about something other than social signaling, it might not be.

--
Les Cargill

== 5 of 8 ==
Date: Sun, Jan 24 2010 11:33 am
From: tmclone

Les Cargill" <lcargill99@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:hji5i9$9c7$1@news.eternal-september.org...
>h wrote:
>> "Bill" <billnomailnospamx@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:7s1dgqFj4bU1@mid.individual.net...
>>
>>> Then there's the opportunity cost of an MBA: In other words. The lost
>>> income during the two plus years you are going to school full time.
>>> Let's just take the average annual bachelor's degree salary and double
>>> that, which would equate to $101,800 (for me, it's more than that) -
>>> but I'm trying to be conservative here.
>>>
>>
>> Or, like most of us, you continue to WORK full time while you go to
>> school full time. 2 years and finished. Geez, you never considered that
>> option, huh?
>
>
> That's probably appropriate for an MBA. For a discipline which is
> about something other than social signaling, it might not be.
>
Wrong. Mine was an MLS, requiring hours in the library (masters of
LIBRARY
science), writing a ton of papers, and 9 hours of class time every
week. It
meant working or studying 16 hours a day for pretty much 730 days in a
row,
but certainly do-able.

Of course, I got my MLS in the early 80s, before the "interweb", in
the early days of "online searching". I suspect there's a lot more
online options now. I'll bet it's much easier to work full time and
while going to school full time these days..

== 6 of 8 ==
Date: Sun, Jan 24 2010 12:39 pm
From: Les Cargill

tmclone wrote:
> Les Cargill" <lcargill99@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:hji5i9$9c7$1@news.eternal-september.org...
>> h wrote:
>>> "Bill" <billnomailnospamx@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>> news:7s1dgqFj4bU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>
>>>> Then there's the opportunity cost of an MBA: In other words. The lost
>>>> income during the two plus years you are going to school full time.
>>>> Let's just take the average annual bachelor's degree salary and double
>>>> that, which would equate to $101,800 (for me, it's more than that) -
>>>> but I'm trying to be conservative here.
>>>>
>>> Or, like most of us, you continue to WORK full time while you go to
>>> school full time. 2 years and finished. Geez, you never considered that
>>> option, huh?
>>
>> That's probably appropriate for an MBA. For a discipline which is
>> about something other than social signaling, it might not be.
>>
> Wrong. Mine was an MLS, requiring hours in the library (masters of
> LIBRARY
> science), writing a ton of papers, and 9 hours of class time every
> week. It
> meant working or studying 16 hours a day for pretty much 730 days in a
> row,
> but certainly do-able.
>

Purely as a business decision, if you can't pay for
the MS based on heavily subsidized financing available now,
how is it worth it, unless it's just a personal goal?

Oh, it's the whole "I did 730 days straight of 16
hour days." thing again.

So social signaling. Again. Definitionally. Better
living through masochism. :) Which *does* map well to
superior time management skills. Which, in my experience,
comes at the expense of analytic skills, because you can't
do both.

> Of course, I got my MLS in the early 80s, before the "interweb", in
> the early days of "online searching". I suspect there's a lot more
> online options now. I'll bet it's much easier to work full time and
> while going to school full time these days..

It depends on where you work. And, to be fair, it's probably de riguer
for anyone who wants to be taken seriously as a librarian - many of
the ones I've worked with were PhDs.

--
Les Cargill

== 7 of 8 ==
Date: Sun, Jan 24 2010 1:56 pm
From: "h"

"Les Cargill" <lcargill99@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:hjib6i$ve3$1@news.eternal-september.org...
> tmclone wrote:
>> Les Cargill" <lcargill99@comcast.net> wrote in message
>> news:hji5i9$9c7$1@news.eternal-september.org...
>>> h wrote:
>>>> "Bill" <billnomailnospamx@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:7s1dgqFj4bU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>>
>>>>> Then there's the opportunity cost of an MBA: In other words. The lost
>>>>> income during the two plus years you are going to school full time.
>>>>> Let's just take the average annual bachelor's degree salary and double
>>>>> that, which would equate to $101,800 (for me, it's more than that) -
>>>>> but I'm trying to be conservative here.
>>>>>
>>>> Or, like most of us, you continue to WORK full time while you go to
>>>> school full time. 2 years and finished. Geez, you never considered that
>>>> option, huh?
>>>
>>> That's probably appropriate for an MBA. For a discipline which is
>>> about something other than social signaling, it might not be.
>>>
>> Wrong. Mine was an MLS, requiring hours in the library (masters of
>> LIBRARY
>> science), writing a ton of papers, and 9 hours of class time every
>> week. It
>> meant working or studying 16 hours a day for pretty much 730 days in a
>> row,
>> but certainly do-able.
>>
>
> Purely as a business decision, if you can't pay for
> the MS based on heavily subsidized financing available now,
> how is it worth it, unless it's just a personal goal?
>
> Oh, it's the whole "I did 730 days straight of 16
> hour days." thing again.
>
> So social signaling. Again. Definitionally. Better
> living through masochism. :) Which *does* map well to
> superior time management skills. Which, in my experience,
> comes at the expense of analytic skills, because you can't
> do both.
>
>> Of course, I got my MLS in the early 80s, before the "interweb", in
>> the early days of "online searching". I suspect there's a lot more
>> online options now. I'll bet it's much easier to work full time and
>> while going to school full time these days..
>
> It depends on where you work. And, to be fair, it's probably de riguer
> for anyone who wants to be taken seriously as a librarian - many of
> the ones I've worked with were PhDs.
>
Umm, yeah, I've never worked anywhere where an MLS was not an entry-level
requirement. I certainly didn't get a masters because I was a masochist, it
was a JOB REQUIREMENT for my chosen career. And as far as equating good time
management skills with a lack of analytical skills, that just proves you're
an idiot who is biased against advanced degrees. Perhaps you were unable to
get one in the field you really wanted? PLONK!

== 8 of 8 ==
Date: Sun, Jan 24 2010 3:58 pm
From: Les Cargill

h wrote:
> "Les Cargill" <lcargill99@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:hjib6i$ve3$1@news.eternal-september.org...
>> tmclone wrote:
>>> Les Cargill" <lcargill99@comcast.net> wrote in message
>>> news:hji5i9$9c7$1@news.eternal-september.org...
>>>> h wrote:
>>>>> "Bill" <billnomailnospamx@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:7s1dgqFj4bU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>>>
>>>>>> Then there's the opportunity cost of an MBA: In other words. The lost
>>>>>> income during the two plus years you are going to school full time.
>>>>>> Let's just take the average annual bachelor's degree salary and double
>>>>>> that, which would equate to $101,800 (for me, it's more than that) -
>>>>>> but I'm trying to be conservative here.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Or, like most of us, you continue to WORK full time while you go to
>>>>> school full time. 2 years and finished. Geez, you never considered that
>>>>> option, huh?
>>>> That's probably appropriate for an MBA. For a discipline which is
>>>> about something other than social signaling, it might not be.
>>>>
>>> Wrong. Mine was an MLS, requiring hours in the library (masters of
>>> LIBRARY
>>> science), writing a ton of papers, and 9 hours of class time every
>>> week. It
>>> meant working or studying 16 hours a day for pretty much 730 days in a
>>> row,
>>> but certainly do-able.
>>>
>> Purely as a business decision, if you can't pay for
>> the MS based on heavily subsidized financing available now,
>> how is it worth it, unless it's just a personal goal?
>>
>> Oh, it's the whole "I did 730 days straight of 16
>> hour days." thing again.
>>
>> So social signaling. Again. Definitionally. Better
>> living through masochism. :) Which *does* map well to
>> superior time management skills. Which, in my experience,
>> comes at the expense of analytic skills, because you can't
>> do both.
>>
>>> Of course, I got my MLS in the early 80s, before the "interweb", in
>>> the early days of "online searching". I suspect there's a lot more
>>> online options now. I'll bet it's much easier to work full time and
>>> while going to school full time these days..
>> It depends on where you work. And, to be fair, it's probably de riguer
>> for anyone who wants to be taken seriously as a librarian - many of
>> the ones I've worked with were PhDs.
>>
> Umm, yeah, I've never worked anywhere where an MLS was not an entry-level
> requirement. I certainly didn't get a masters because I was a masochist,

Huh. You missed the smiley, eh?

> it
> was a JOB REQUIREMENT for my chosen career. And as far as equating

... correlating... people who are pushed towards time management jobs
suffer atrophy of analytic skills. It's just the way it is...

> good time
> management skills with a lack of analytical skills, that just proves you're
> an idiot who is biased against advanced degrees. Perhaps you were unable to
> get one in the field you really wanted? PLONK!
>
>

No, I gradually got enough school before gradual school, and was easily
able to self-educate beyond that.

--
Les Cargill

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Saving time when whipping eggs...
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/5b1c38b422e75931?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Jan 24 2010 8:50 am
From: gheston@hiwaay.net (Gary Heston)

...by not actually whipping them. Use a jar.

I tried it this morning; two eggs and an ounce or so of cold water
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The idea came to me earlier this week while I was doing something
unrelated. It's how I'll prepare eggs from now on.

Gary

--
Gary Heston gheston@hiwaay.net http://www.thebreastcancersite.com/

"It's kind of hard to rally 'round a math class."
Paul "Bear" Bryant

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TOPIC: What's on the Box?
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== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Jan 24 2010 11:28 am
From: Balvenieman

A sunny Sunday afternoon; 82°(F) outside. Diana Krall's '01 in-Paris
recording in the headphones. What's yours?
--
the Balvenieman
sure-enough Running on single malt in U.S.A.
USDA zone 9b

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Jan 24 2010 12:14 pm
From: "The Henchman"

"Balvenieman" <balvenieman@invalid.net> wrote in message
news:AbednTjTVcTnAsHWnZ2dnUVZ_u-dnZ2d@earthlink.com...
>
> A sunny Sunday afternoon; 82�(F) outside. Diana Krall's '01 in-Paris
> recording in the headphones. What's yours?
> --

AFC title game will be on in 20 minutes. It'll be hard to cheer for the
Jets, but I'ma a Bills fan and I gotta root for the AFC east.

Got a family recipe corned beef about to go into the oven. Our own blend
of pickling spics, sugar, salt and cinnamon, aged for 12 days. 180 F for 35
minutes a lb. We used a 5.5 lb brisket with the nice tip 1/4" fat. yum
yum. If this were summer ( Toronto) I'd be smoking it outside today to make
pastrami.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Jan 24 2010 5:18 pm
From: Dan Birchall

balvenieman@invalid.net (Balvenieman) wrote:
> A sunny Sunday afternoon; 82(F) outside. Diana Krall's '01 in-Paris
> recording in the headphones. What's yours?

Sunny Sunday afternoon; 79(F) outside. Birds chirping, doves calling,
an occasional bark from one of the neighbors' dogs, and in the distance,
the sound of light traffic. Occasionally an airplane.

--
http://08016.com/ - Burlington City history on the internet, since 1995.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Using Bicarbonate Against the Swine Flu & Colds
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/2327990b4a832a88?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Jan 24 2010 2:05 pm
From: Courtney

Testimonials:
My father was a veterinarian and as far back as I can remember (I was
born in 1938 so my memory goes back to maybe 1943) he would take
sodium bicarbonate dissolved in a full glass of warm water whenever
he
felt a cold coming on. I don't remember him ever coming down with a
full blown cold. He would treat my cold symptoms likewise and I
responded equally as well. He also treated farm animals for various
illnesses with sodium bicarbonate via a gastric tube and they
recovered quickly. So I've known about the benefits of sodium
bicarbonate from early childhood on. Glad to see that its benefits
are
being more widely touted. Although my father was a doctor of
Veterinarian medicine, he sometimes referred to himself as an MD
(Mule
Doctor).

Dr. David B Winter, DO

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Jan 24 2010 3:02 pm
From: don@manx.misty.com (Don Klipstein)

In <56709bd9-2b15-4cde-adf4-61d115ff7b2d@33g2000yqo.googlegroups.com>,
Courtney wrote:

>Testimonials:
>My father was a veterinarian and as far back as I can remember (I was
>born in 1938 so my memory goes back to maybe 1943) he would take
>sodium bicarbonate dissolved in a full glass of warm water whenever
>he
>felt a cold coming on. I don=92t remember him ever coming down with a
>full blown cold. He would treat my cold symptoms likewise and I
>responded equally as well. He also treated farm animals for various
>illnesses with sodium bicarbonate via a gastric tube and they
>recovered quickly. So I=92ve known about the benefits of sodium
>bicarbonate from early childhood on. Glad to see that its benefits
>are
>being more widely touted. Although my father was a doctor of
>Veterinarian medicine, he sometimes referred to himself as an MD
>(Mule Doctor).

Sodium bicarbonate is one of the two sodium salts of carbonic acid, the
one where one of the two "acid hydrogens" is replaced by a sodium.
Carbonic acid is the result of combining carbon dioxide and water.

In solution, sodium bicarbonate dissociates into carbonic acid and
sodium hydroxide,

or more properly, carbonic acid (part of which dissociates into
bicarbonate ions and hydrogen ions, with a few carbonate ions), sodium
ions, and hydroxide ions.

The body regulates breathing to conserve-vs-exhale carbon dioxide from
bicarbonate ions and acid hydrogen ions in the bloodstream to regulate
blood pH.

But basically, sodium bicarbonate is the less alkaline one of the two
sodium salts of what you get when you dissolve CO2 into water.

It is hard to see anything so magical about it.

- Don Klipstein (don@misty.com)

==============================================================================
TOPIC: This death is perhaps the catalyst for change
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/37030d7162e0a31e?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Jan 24 2010 3:41 pm
From: TheTibetanMonkey showing-the-path-of-enlightenment-in-the-jungle

Or so I hope. This is the "best place" for riding in Miami, and
perhaps the only one (other than a mixed path that you have to do 20
times to get a workout among dogs and people)...

coach wrote:
You're only wasting your time if you don't do something about it.
While posting on message forums can be a useful way to bring awareness
to issues, getting out and fighting it directly is the real way to
make change. Both work hand in hand (see our recent discussion on
social media whores… I mean, experts).

***

I REPLY:

I do not advice anyone to go out there ALONE and do the fight. If it
ain't in a group, a brain spilled over the road is a terrible thing to
waste. Instead we go in groups, TAKE THE LANE, and be ready for the
WORST, even if it means dying for a cause. The media vultures are
irrelevant… They—like lawyers—only go when there are mangled or dead
bodies. WE GO INTERNATIONAL.

Here's some news from the jungle, where the reckless drivers often,
too often, get away with crime…

"A mass of bicyclists stood at the crest of the Bear Cut Bridge in Key
Biscayne Sunday morning, thinking of the fellow cyclist who died
here.

Forty-four-year-old Christophe LeCanne was killed by a hit-and run
driver who police say was drunk and speeding. His co-workers say he
left behind a wife and two children.

The cyclists know next time anyone of them could lose their lives.
Some have already been hit. Several cyclists showed CBS4's Natalia Zea
their scars and scabs after being hit by cars. The cyclists say it
happens all the time.

http://cbs4.com/local/cyclist.bicyclist.rickenbacker.2.1445568.html

NOTE: Unlike Critical Mass we only take one lane and we go organized.
Share the road, not block the road.

--------------------------------------------------------------

WISE MONKEY SAYS:

"In the jungle deep issues need attention or else you only apply
bandaids"

http://webspawner.com/users/BANANAREVOLUTION

==============================================================================
TOPIC: What will be the last death before change happens?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/3836cd19ee13b48f?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Jan 24 2010 4:04 pm
From: TheTibetanMonkey showing-the-path-of-enlightenment-in-the-jungle

I hope it's this one...

(This is the "best place" to ride a bike in Miami, perhaps the only
one other than a few short bike lanes and mixed paths you must share
with people and dogs)

I repply:

I do not advice anyone to go out there ALONE and do the fight. If it
ain't in a group, a brain spilled over the road is a terrible thing to
waste. Instead we go in groups, TAKE THE LANE, and be ready for the
WORST, even if it means dying for a cause. The media vultures are
irrelevant… They only go when there are dead bodies. WE GO
INTERNATIONAL.

Here's some news from the jungle, where the reckless drivers often,
too often, get away with crime…

(I quote)

A mass of bicyclists stood at the crest of the Bear Cut Bridge in Key
Biscayne Sunday morning, thinking of the fellow cyclist who died
here.

Forty-four-year-old Christophe LeCanne was killed by a hit-and run
driver who police say was drunk and speeding. His co-workers say he
left behind a wife and two children.

http://cbs4.com/local/cyclist.bicyclist.rickenbacker.2.1445568.html

NOTE: Unlike Critical Mass we only take one lane and we go organized.
Share the road, not block the road.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

THE WISE MONKEY SAYS:

"When death becomes a routine the sheep look the other way"

http://webspawner.com/users/BANANAREVOLUTION

==============================================================================

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Sunday, January 24, 2010

misc.consumers.frugal-living - 25 new messages in 11 topics - digest

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