Frugal Living: 25 new messages in 12 topics

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

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TOPIC: Frugal Investing By Being Price-Right
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/d375148d8d0b2607?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 3 2007 12:17 pm
From: thebrilliantbull@gmail.com

[Fwd.] Market Update Review (Last 3 days, 8-1-07 to 8-3-2007)

Source: http://TheBrilliantBull.Com
(Why keep guessing or wondering about the market, when chances are the
smart ones already know what's going to happen well before it happens?
Anyway, if you want to get the updates sooner, just visit the website
TheBrilliantBull.Com yourself and subscribe to its RSS, the time-stamp
shown was E.S.T./N.Y.T.)

===================

August 1, 2007
Market UpDate (August 1, 2007)
by thebrilliantbull @ 1:28 pm

ABSTRACT: Market Indexes forecasted to go up by about 2%

(To read the original full text, visit TheBrilliantBull.Com)

===================

August 2, 2007
Market UpDate (August 2, 2007)
by thebrilliantbull @ 2:58 pm

ABSTRACT: Forecasted 2% upside fulfilled. Take profits. Sideways
market with bearish bias expected next.

(To read the original full text, visit TheBrilliantBull.Com)

===================

August 3, 2007
Market UpDate (August 3, 2007)
by thebrilliantbull @ 12:25 pm

ABSTRACT: Holding pattern, price in narrow range. Temporarily
oscillating in narrow range, with longer-term bearish bias.

After having sold short at yesterday's intra-day peaks and especially
at the closing high, Wall Street shorted again at the open today,
which not surprisingly is followed by a price drop. However, it is
likely that the Street has reversed and short-covered, at least
partially, beginning about one hour into today's trading session.

As usual, such Street short-covering has bullish implications, the
only question is how much. This also could mean a possible
modification of the Street's price script, if only temporarily and for
a rather short-term.

So what the change in script could be? One scenario is that a rally
will be staged to squeeze the intra-day public bears who most likely
had just sold short about one hour after the market open, having
expected a continuation of price decline after their trend-following
system gave a lagging "sell signal" and belatedly "confirmed" the
visually obvious price drop as a "trend", with the Street taking the
other side of their short sale.

It should not be surprising to then see a price run-up to the level of
yesterday's high and this morning's open, and indeed probably breaking
above that to create the chart pattern of a "price breakout".

A price breakout, whether real or false, will typically shake out
public bears who had earlier sold short at a typically inappropriately
low price point, by forcing them to cover at a significant loss and
ironically often at or near the peak price of what would be a bull-
trap.

To what extent this scenario of a false breakout and a bull-trap will
materialize, remains to be seen, but it is certainly a rather likely
outcome that should be included in any smart trader or investor's
deliberation, anticipation and planning.

Obviously, this would mean an even lower price amplitude, making it
very difficult for John Q. Public to profit after commission charges
and slippage, and especially if the lagging trend-following methods
are used.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Frugal cooking on outdoor grill? Just don't burn it
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/9749cfb45c30d03f?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 3 2007 12:44 pm
From: "D."

I just read this in the Baylor cancer center newsletter:

The sizzle, the smoky flavor, the grill lines...barbequed meats are not
only delicious, but healthy too, right? It's true-those juicy burgers,
especially the charred ones, can contain cancer-causing carcinogens.

"Grilling is a low-fat method of cooking," says Elizabeth Schaub,
registered and licensed dietitian on the medical staff at Baylor
Regional Medical Center at Plano. "But we have to be aware that it can
increase our risk of cancer if we eat grilled meats too often."

It's true-those juicy burgers, especially the charred ones, can
contain cancer-causing carcinogens. "When you grill meat some of the
fat does drip down on to the charcoal and when fat meets that really
high temperature it develops a carcinogen and the smoke carries the
carcinogen back up to the meat which can be dangerous for our bodies,"
explains Schaub.

But there are some ways to grill safer. One is to simply avoid burning
or searing meats. Cooking food longer at lower temperatures is best.

"To also cut down on carcinogens you can decrease the amount of time
that the food is actually on the grill," adds Schaub. "Precook the
meat in either the oven or the microwave then finish it up on the
grill just to give it a little bit of crispness and a little bit of
flavor."

Another tip is to choose leaner cuts.

"Skinless chicken or lean beef or pork," suggests Schaub. "Decreasing
the amount of fat that's able to drip down onto the coals also will
decrease your carcinogens."

And finally, remember that just meat cooked on the grill can form
cancer-causing chemicals-other foods pose no risk.

"You really don't get carcinogen development when you grill fruits and
vegetables and those can be a nice, flavorful accompaniment to a low-
fat piece of meat for a meal," adds Schaub.

What about fish? Can it too develop carcinogens on the grill? Experts
say 'yes,' red meat, chicken, fish-anything that contains protein can
develop carcinogens.

So remember-don't char your meat and lower the temperature of your
grill. Also, cutting meats up and skewering them can cut down on their
time on the grill meaning less carcinogens. And finally, flipping
foods frequently can help prevent the chemicals from forming.

-----

Also, another article on this topic, referencing the Harvard Health
Letter, is at http://shamvswham.blogspot.com/search?q=outdoor

Dave

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Options For Getting Vision Checked/Corrected
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/2e15a5469a059984?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 3 2007 1:44 pm
From: "Melissa"

"Abe" <noone@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:d3q6b3tat1jnfv3qlmk7b146scctfv4h5v@4ax.com...
> >The big secret that they will never tell you is that the success rate
> >numbers are based on the result they get when they first test you after
> >the procedure. Technically your vision may be ~20/20 but you can't see
> >well.
>
> I don't disagree with the caution you suggest, but saying "Technically
> your vision may be ~20/20 but you can't see well" makes absolutely no
> sense.

You can have 20/20 vision as far as distance...but your reading vision can
still suck. I know a 2 ladies who had the surgery, and are now in their
late 40's. They both need reading glasses, in spite of the fact that they
can see a mile down the road with perfect vision.

I have really bad vision, since I was 5 years old. I'm now 48. My
prescription is a -650 or so. I went into a progressive lens last year
(glasses), because I could no longer read. I have bi-focal contacts, but
they aren't perfect. If I want to see something clearly, I need to remove my
glasses or contacts, and hold the item about 5 inches from my face.

I had an exam for the laser surgery, but it would completely remove my
ability to hold something close and see it clearly. That is something I
cannot give up. No matter how "correct" my reading glasses are, I can't
thread a needle or read a jewelry mark with them. My pupils are also small,
which means they would dialate my eyes before the procedure. My night
vision would be worse...halos and glares would be worse than they are now.

So, I deal with my progressive lens glasses, wear contacts for certain
events, and bring out my old single vision glasses for when I need to be
able to see clearly for a long distance, and for laying in bed and watching
TV.

My eyes have changed a lot in just 12 months, and I'm sure I need a new
prescription again. These progressive glasses cost a fortune (rolled and
polished edges to prevent that coke bottle look) combined with my high
prescription has always meant my glasses are pricey. My last pair of single
vision ones were just under $300. $200 of that was the lens itself, the
rest was the frame that also included a magnetic sunglass. My progressive
lenses were over $500. Again, they included magnetic sunglasses.

In short (I know, too late), find a locally owned shop. Stay away from the
chains. Don't try to skimp on your eyes. It's not the place to be
frugal/cheap.

The "lenses that change in the sunlight" are a rip off. They don't work well
in a car because of the UV protection built into the auto glass. I talked
to at least 5 people who bought them and hated them because they didn't get
dark enough in the car in bright sunlight.

Melissa

== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 3 2007 1:16 pm
From: George

Abe wrote:
>> The big secret that they will never tell you is that the success rate
>> numbers are based on the result they get when they first test you after
>> the procedure. Technically your vision may be ~20/20 but you can't see
>> well.
>
> I don't disagree with the caution you suggest, but saying "Technically
> your vision may be ~20/20 but you can't see well" makes absolutely no
> sense.

They test using only a simple eye chart. You technically have 20/20
because you can read the line but have almost no peripheral vision or
have lots of distortion (looking through a frosted window effect etc) or
other aberrations.

A friend just had it done a few months ago and was delighted to have
20/20 just like they show on the commercials but functionally he cannot
see well. They keep on telling him it will take more time.

== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 3 2007 4:07 pm
From: "Don K"

"Melissa" <nospam@neo.rr.com> wrote in message
news:46b385d9$0$29689$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>
> The "lenses that change in the sunlight" are a rip off. They don't work well
> in a car because of the UV protection built into the auto glass. I talked
> to at least 5 people who bought them and hated them because they didn't get
> dark enough in the car in bright sunlight.
>

That's an interesting point to check out if considering that type of lens.
I've never seriously considered them because I feel they don't go totally
transparent in dim light either.

Don

== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 3 2007 7:16 pm
From: Shawn Hirn

In article <Xns99815D8AEA35BSMH1960@207.115.33.102>,
SMH <smh@munged.address.com> wrote:

> I need to get my vision checked, and as cheaply as possible. I am sure I
> am looking at an optometrist's exam plus whatever the correction is likely
> to be (probably bifocals, as I have always been myopic and now seem to be
> getting significant hyperopia as I get into my late 40s).
>
> Some years back I went to an optometrist working inside a Sears store and
> was okay with that. But maybe there are better places to consider...and
> surely advice on places to avoid.
>
> Also, my friend abroad, in her mid-40s, got the laser treatment several
> years ago and is happy with it. But I get the impression that the laser
> correction therapy is more frequently done and well advanced than it is
> here in the U.S. I am tired of wearing soft contacts (too much dry eye in
> old age), and I don't want to put spectacles on as my front hairline starts
> to meet the back of my neck, as the combination is unattractive to me,
> forget about what anyone else thinks. Any thoughts on the effectivess and
> value of laser correction of vision? Has anyone done it first time in
> middle age? I hear age is a factor. I am planning for a year or two down
> the road maybe.

Laser correction can be highly effective, but it depends on the
condition of your eyes. If there's an ophthalmology or optometry school
in your area, check there to see if they have a low cost client where
you can have your eyes checked. You didn't say where in the world you
live, so its hard to give specific recommendations on how to get a
cheap, yet good eye exam.

== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 3 2007 7:26 pm
From: Shawn Hirn

In article <5LOdnf0vtZtjKS7bnZ2dnUVZ_hWdnZ2d@comcast.com>,
"Don K" <dk@dont_bother_me.com> wrote:

> "Melissa" <nospam@neo.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:46b385d9$0$29689$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
> >
> > The "lenses that change in the sunlight" are a rip off. They don't work well
> > in a car because of the UV protection built into the auto glass. I talked
> > to at least 5 people who bought them and hated them because they didn't get
> > dark enough in the car in bright sunlight.
> >
>
> That's an interesting point to check out if considering that type of lens.
> I've never seriously considered them because I feel they don't go totally
> transparent in dim light either.

Really? I have polar grey lenses and I love them. I have no problem
driving during the day with my glasses on. I am very nearsighted, so
glasses are essential when I drive. My glasses get dark enough when I
drive. Since I got my new glasses (this past January), I no longer have
problems with glare when I drive on sunny days, even if I am driving in
the direction of the sun. Now, I don't need a separate pair of
prescription eye glasses.

The only down side I have with my glasses is when I am out shooting
photos in bright sunlight. I am an avid ameteur photographer. I have a
digital SLR and I like to shoot it on full manual a lot. I have to take
off my glasses now in order to see the shutter speed and aperture
numbers in the viewfinder because the darkened lenses obscure the
information too much. The first time I experienced that problem, I
thought my camera was broken! Its a minor irritation, so what I do now
is carry my previous set of classes in my camera bag, which are a very
close prescription to my current pair.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: The Made in China Bogeyman
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/6b5476492d573449?hl=en
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== 1 of 6 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 3 2007 1:02 pm
From: PaPaPeng

Nothing is scarier
than the China scare
A US company orders a recall, and it is treated as routine. But let
something Chinese slip through the regulators and it is cause for
regime change. That is really what the Chinese-product fuss is all
about - rising imports from China. What is actually being played out
is the China scare - the antiquated, mercantilist fear of imports that
China's growing economic might evokes. - Debasish Roy Chowdhury

Nothing is scarier than the China scare
By Debasish Roy Chowdhury
August 4, 2007
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China_Business/IH04Cb01.html

BEIJING - A new food scare has gripped the United States, with the US
Food and Drug Administration (FDA) urging people to throw away more
than 90 different products, made at a Castleberry's Food Co plant,
from chili sauce to corned-beef hash to dog food, for fears that they
are causing botulism, a muscle-paralyzing disease.

Seven cases of botulism have so far been reported. Most victims
consumed a hotdog chili sauce made at the company's plant in the US
state of Georgia that has been temporarily closed. The recall has been
expanded to Canada as well.

Castleberry's is owned by Bumble Bee Foods, the largest branded
seafood company in North America - not in China, the evil land from
where all the toxic food and lethal products in the world supposedly
emanate.

The list of product recalls in the United States in recent months is
almost inexhaustible. In March, Ford Motor Co recalled 2008 Super Duty
trucks made in a Kentucky plant after reports of tailpipe fires in the
diesel version of the vehicles; in June, California-based United Food
Group recalled 34,000 kilograms of ground-beef products after they
were suspected to have been contaminated with the bacterium
Escherichia coli (E coli); and in July, Sara Lee Corp began to recall
dozens of its whole-wheat bread brands made at a Mississippi bakery
for fears that they contained pieces of metal.

But the product scares and recalls the US media seem fixated on are
the ones from China. It is the faulty tires, toothpaste, pet food,
seafood and toys with a China connection that are making all the news,
with cover stories, editorials and television programs harping on how
China's "substandard" manufacturing methods are putting American
consumers at risk, how the factory to the world is actually one big
sham, and proffering ways to keep off products with any trace of
China.

As a bonus, the China horror story even has a feel-good subtext -
nothing can match US quality; if China makes goods cheaper than the
US, now you know how: by cutting corners.

This fear of Chinese products is reinforced by administrative
measures. At the height of the product scare, the US government
quickly formed a cabinet-level panel to recommend how to guarantee the
safety of imported food and other products. In this self-delusional
world of policymaking, the Castleberry's and the United Food Groups do
not exist, it is only the products coming from outside the United
States that pose a threat.

Though it was denied that the move was aimed at China, the
announcement came the same day US senators heard testimony from
quality regulators about problems caused by the extremely rapid growth
of imports from China.

That is really what this is all about - rising imports from China. It
is not the Chinese-product scare; what is actually being played out is
the China scare - the antiquated, mercantilist fear of imports that
China's growing economic might evokes.

Chinese exports to the US last year were nearly triple those of just
five years ago. Chinese exports to the United States totaled US$288
billion, while US exports to China totaled $55 billion.

But according to the Cato Institute, Americans have never earned or
spent a higher share of their income in the global economy than they
do today. In 2006, what the US earned through exports and income from
foreign investments abroad reached a record 15.6% of gross domestic
product. Since China's entry to the World Trade Organization in 2001,
US exports to this country have grown from $19 billion to $55 billion,
an annual average growth of 24%.

Despite the din about how China is getting ahead with its undervalued
yuan, real output of US factories has increased by 50% since China
pegged its currency to the US dollar in 1994.

Despite the rhetoric of how ("substandard") Chinese products are
stealing jobs from Americans rendered powerless by this unforeseen
consequence of globalization, trade with China accounts for a mere 1%
of annual job displacement in the US.

By Cato's estimates, at the most 150,000 jobs are lost in the US every
year because of imports from China, compared with 15 million jobs that
disappear annually in the US economy primarily as a result of
technological changes and the consequent increase in productivity.

Productivity gains have actually taken a bigger toll on employment in
China than in the US. A study by Alliance Capital Management LP in New
York finds that while the number of manufacturing workers in the US
dropped by 11% from 1995 through 2002, in China it dropped by 15%.

And in any case, Chinese imports in the US are mostly replacing
imports from other Asian countries, not US products themselves. And
manufacturing is no longer the foundation of the US economy as it
begins to de-industrialize as part of a global economic shift.

But then again, while there is no market for reason, there is a big
one for fear. That is why a Utah-based health-food company has
launched a new label and ad blitz promoting its products as
"China-free". This is despite the fact that FDA records show China is
not even the leading source of contaminated imports to the US. India
and Mexico have surpassed China in "refused food shipments" over the
past year, while the leader in rejected candy imports happens to be
Denmark.

Why pick on China?
It is difficult to ignore the xenophobic, and even racist, overtones
in the attacks against China. When the products are made in the US, it
is just the company that is in focus. When they are found to have a
China connection, even if it is a US company getting its products made
in China, it is the country that takes the lashes, as if the company
has no obligation toward quality control.

Protectionism needs a popular idiom. Xenophobia needs a whipping boy.
China scare is the product of this marriage of convenience. As the
poster boy of economic success and the visions it inspires of trumping
the almighty US economy, China is the obvious target when it comes to
manufactures. Much of the same is directed at India when it comes to
services, with outsourcing fears often vented by Western callers in
torrents of racist abuses on Indian call-center workers.

This xenophobia is what lies at the heart of the current product panic
in the US. If unchecked, and recklessly fanned, this has the potential
of derailing the very process of globalization that developing
countries are betting on for a better future. That is scarier than the
China scare.

Debasish Roy Chowdhury is a senior editor with China Daily.

== 2 of 6 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 3 2007 4:10 pm
From: Greg

On Fri, 03 Aug 2007 20:02:05 GMT, PaPaPeng <PaPaPeng@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Nothing is scarier
>than the China scare

Yeah, listen to PaPaPeng!

Feed your dog that poisoned dog food and make him LIKE it. Tell your
kids that those toys with lead paint are good for them. And, brush
your teeth with that bogus Colgate that has anti-freeze chemicals in
it. These things make you TOUGH! China is doing you a FAVOR by killing
you!

Americans are turning into sissies...

== 3 of 6 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 3 2007 5:43 pm
From: PaPaPeng

On Fri, 03 Aug 2007 19:10:16 -0400, Greg <kismet2463@mypacks.net>
wrote:

>On Fri, 03 Aug 2007 20:02:05 GMT, PaPaPeng <PaPaPeng@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>Nothing is scarier
>>than the China scare
>
>Yeah, listen to PaPaPeng!
>
>Feed your dog that poisoned dog food and make him LIKE it. Tell your
>kids that those toys with lead paint are good for them. And, brush
>your teeth with that bogus Colgate that has anti-freeze chemicals in
>it. These things make you TOUGH! China is doing you a FAVOR by killing
>you!
>
>Americans are turning into sissies...

Hey I haven't said anything yet. The article was quoted in toto. But
here's something I did say elsewhere.

On Fri, 03 Aug 2007 22:54:17 +0900, Gernot Hassenpflug
<gernot@coda.ocn.ne.jp> wrote:

>> Must be a Chinese population control thingy. Just imagine China's
>> population boom if the food is Grade A
>
>You can control with cholesterol also you know. America does it.
>--
>Gernot Hassenpflug

More than a billion walk and bicycle a lot. But obesity among kids is
a recent problem. Furthermore a little bit of anything good and the
not so good fortifies and perhaps immunizes one's constitution against
greater insults that one will inevitably encounter some time in one's
life. A Chinaman can eat almost anything that has a hint of protein.

China is a medical statistician's dream. Fast changing social norms
should provide good data for many medical linkages. The sample size
for any disease is statistically super significant. I remember a
professional journal's gushing report (some 30 years ago) about
finding long existing (multi generational) pockets of specific
diseases (eg. throat cancer) in one village where an identical village
just half an hour away walking distance does not suffer from them.
Often the majority of the villagers are inter-related and its not
uncommon for a whole village to share the same surname. Scratch the
surface and everyone is everyone else's cousin somewhere. Until just
30 years ago there was traditionally very little emigration out or a
recruitment of outsiders in village communities. Thus there were
literrally tens of thousands of villages where their genetic pool had
been certifiably stable over several centuries and likely much longer.
From the anecdotal stories of life in modern China, especially those
of migrant workers, there seems not that much mixing yet. Most still
chose their life partners from their home area. Chinese may all look
alike and speak putonghua ("plain speak" based on the Beijing dialect)
But village kinship, provincial dialects and local traditions do
influence social bonding and marriage decisions.

== 4 of 6 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 3 2007 6:10 pm
From: jtnospam@yahoo.com

On Aug 3, 5:43 pm, PaPaPeng <PaPaP...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 03 Aug 2007 19:10:16 -0400, Greg <kismet2...@mypacks.net>
> wrote:
>
> >On Fri, 03 Aug 2007 20:02:05 GMT, PaPaPeng <PaPaP...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >>Nothing is scarier
> >>than the China scare
>
> >Yeah, listen to PaPaPeng!
>
> >Feed your dog that poisoned dog food and make him LIKE it. Tell your
> >kids that those toys with lead paint are good for them. And, brush
> >your teeth with that bogus Colgate that has anti-freeze chemicals in
> >it. These things make you TOUGH! China is doing you a FAVOR by killing
> >you!
>
> >Americans are turning into sissies...
>
> Hey I haven't said anything yet. The article was quoted in toto. But
> here's something I did say elsewhere.
>
> On Fri, 03 Aug 2007 22:54:17 +0900, Gernot Hassenpflug
>
> <ger...@coda.ocn.ne.jp> wrote:
> >> Must be a Chinese population control thingy. Just imagine China's
> >> population boom if the food is Grade A
>
> >You can control with cholesterol also you know. America does it.
> >--
> >Gernot Hassenpflug
>
> More than a billion walk and bicycle a lot. But obesity among kids is
> a recent problem. Furthermore a little bit of anything good and the
> not so good fortifies and perhaps immunizes one's constitution against
> greater insults that one will inevitably encounter some time in one's
> life. A Chinaman can eat almost anything that has a hint of protein.
>
> China is a medical statistician's dream. Fast changing social norms
> should provide good data for many medical linkages. The sample size
> for any disease is statistically super significant. I remember a
> professional journal's gushing report (some 30 years ago) about
> finding long existing (multi generational) pockets of specific
> diseases (eg. throat cancer) in one village where an identical village
> just half an hour away walking distance does not suffer from them.
> Often the majority of the villagers are inter-related and its not
> uncommon for a whole village to share the same surname. Scratch the
> surface and everyone is everyone else's cousin somewhere. Until just
> 30 years ago there was traditionally very little emigration out or a
> recruitment of outsiders in village communities. Thus there were
> literrally tens of thousands of villages where their genetic pool had
> been certifiably stable over several centuries and likely much longer.
> From the anecdotal stories of life in modern China, especially those
> of migrant workers, there seems not that much mixing yet. Most still
> chose their life partners from their home area. Chinese may all look
> alike and speak putonghua ("plain speak" based on the Beijing dialect)
> But village kinship, provincial dialects and local traditions do
> influence social bonding and marriage decisions.

Quality prblems do exist in the little bit of U.S. manufacturing that
remains, but unlike China, we have industrial and health standards
that are publicly accessible (China's gvmt. still handles much of this
information as a state secret) and more importantly, we have an
independent legal system in which private parties can sue to enforce
standards. In China, the courts are part of the political system, and
private rights are not only unenforceable but often treated as acts of
treason. Expecting any kind of quality control under these
circumstances is a delusion.-Jitney

== 5 of 6 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 3 2007 7:04 pm
From: PaPaPeng

On Fri, 03 Aug 2007 18:10:48 -0700, jtnospam@yahoo.com wrote:

>Quality prblems do exist in the little bit of U.S. manufacturing that
>remains, but unlike China, we have industrial and health standards
>that are publicly accessible (China's gvmt. still handles much of this
>information as a state secret) and more importantly, we have an
>independent legal system in which private parties can sue to enforce
>standards. In China, the courts are part of the political system, and
>private rights are not only unenforceable but often treated as acts of
>treason. Expecting any kind of quality control under these
>circumstances is a delusion.-Jitney

Read the original afticle closely. Go after the culprit not a whole
country or a people. Any China enterprise that exports to the US does
so in quantities by the containerful shipload. That is its big
business. Its very easy for the buyer to specify manufacturing and
safety standards and make them stick. Not to do so loses the
business. Its common sense for someone paying good big bucks for
goods to make sure they are safe. It doesn't take much to get the
specs right and to get them tested for compliance on delivery. In
sue happy US its a matter of self protection and good business
practice.

Anyway here's this development:

China's about-face on product safety
By Antoaneta Bezlova
August 3, 2007
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China_Business/IH03Cb01.html

BEIJING - Dogged by a plethora of reports in the foreign media
highlighting problem Chinese goods and worried that product-safety
recalls are spiraling into a major problem for its export juggernaut,
Beijing has shifted gears to defend its battered "Made in China"
reputation.

On Wednesday, the world's largest toymaker, Mattel, announced a
massive recall of Chinese-made toys because of excessive lead in their
paint. Reluctant to acknowledge such problems when they first came to
light several months ago, Chinese authorities are now daily rounding
up companies suspected of faulty products. The safety crackdown on
domestic producers has been accompanied by a public relations campaign
aimed at international traders.

"The Chinese government pays great attention to addressing flaws in
product quality, especially the quality of food products," Li
Changjiang, minister in charge of the General Administration of
Quality Supervision, Inspection and Quarantine, said at a specially
convened press conference.

The government's acknowledgement of existing problems makes a
remarkable departure for a bureaucratic system prone to cover-ups.

When a pet-food ingredient produced in China was linked to the deaths
of cats and dogs in North America in April, Beijing's first reaction
was to deny it. "The poisoning of American pets has nothing to do with
China," claimed a report in the Communist Party's flagship newspaper,
the People's Daily.

Export-control officials argued that food contamination occurred both
within the United States and with US exports to China. "No
food-inspection system is foolproof," Li Yuanping, director general of
the Import and Export Food Safety Bureau, countered at the time.

But international worries about China's exports have continued to
mount with more and more reports about substandard and fake products
coming to light. Since April, a slew of exports - including
toothpaste, tires, seafood and toys - have been recalled or rejected
around the world. What is worse, mislabeled drug ingredients in
Chinese exports have been blamed for killing and injuring people in
Panama and Haiti.

As a result, China has come under political pressure from the US and
the European Union, where politicians are demanding assurances about
the quality and safety of Chinese exports.

After slapping controls on China's seafood imports because of unsafe
chemical residues found in farm-raised fish, the US administration
dispatched its health chief for talks with Chinese officials this
week.

"Our US regulatory agencies are concerned about what they see as an
insufficient infrastructure across the board in China to assure the
safety, quality and effectiveness of many products exported to the
United States," Mike Leavitt said in Beijing on Tuesday.

Leavitt's mission to Beijing came on the heels of a visit by the head
of the EU's consumer-protection agency, Meglena Kuneva, last week.
Kuneva urged Chinese regulators to track down every producer of
substandard goods and stop their exports to Europe.

China's safety woes have not been limited to Europe and North America.
Excessive antibiotic or pesticide residue has caused bans in Japan on
Chinese poultry products, frozen spinach and tea. Hong Kong blocked
imports of turbot fish last year after inspectors found traces of
malachite green, a possible cancer-causing chemical used to treat
fungal infections.

Last year Taiwan too banned imports of hairy crabs from mainland China
over traces of carcinogens. This June, Russia's federal agricultural
authorities banned fish from China because of antibiotic
contamination.

Watching the volley of safety complaints, Chinese officials have grown
worried that an all-around international campaign on problem goods
could lead to sanctions and hurt the country's exports.

Exports and foreign investment are the chief engines of China's
booming economy. According to World Trade Organization statistics,
China's total food exports reached US$246 billion in 2005, which is
nearly eight times the $31 billion it exported in 1980.

In a dramatic display of concern, two weeks ago China executed the
former head of the State Food and Drug Administration (SFDA), Zheng
Xiaoyu, for accepting bribes in return for granting government
approval for various medicines in 2005.

Experts say several agencies involved in safety and quality
supervision, such as the SFDA and the General Administration of
Quality Supervision, Inspection and Quarantine, squabble over the
division of powers and tend to deny responsibility for mistakes.

In recent weeks, the government has pledged to overhaul the
regulations on food and drug safety and announced a nationwide quality
and safety inspection. This week, Beijing issued a regulation holding
local governments responsible for any major food poisoning or other
health threat caused by contaminated or substandard food.

Yet, while aiming to publicize its actions on safety controls, Beijing
has also tried to limit future PR fallout. Newspapers in the capital
have been warned against running negative news on food safety, even
negative articles reprinted from newspapers in other regions, reported
the Hong Kong-based South China Morning Post this week.

Some observers are criticizing foreign media for exaggerating food
safety.

"All these negative reports and commentaries about 'Made in China' -
it all smacks of psychological warfare," argued Zhang Guoqing, an
expert on international affairs with the Chinese Academy of Social
Sciences. "It is worth reminding detractors that China's trade surplus
is a testimony to the opportunities and attraction of the Chinese
economy."

(Inter Press Service)

Don't worry your pretty head about the crap Chinese sell to Chinese
inside China. Chinese are not idiots. They count their pennies
before they buy anything. The bad stuff don't get anywhere since
there is so much choice from thousands of manufacturers for any item
of merchandise. There are few if any national brands and the damage
from any dangerous goods is localized. Shit happens and you can't
catch them all everytime. For the occasional higher level fraud like
fake pharmaceutical drugs the penalty is long jail terms and even the
death penalty. There is none of this long court process with plea
bargains and getting off on a technicality.

== 6 of 6 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 3 2007 10:42 pm
From: jtnospam@yahoo.com

On Aug 3, 7:04 pm, PaPaPeng <PaPaP...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 03 Aug 2007 18:10:48 -0700, jtnos...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >Quality prblems do exist in the little bit of U.S. manufacturing that
> >remains, but unlike China, we have industrial and health standards
> >that are publicly accessible (China's gvmt. still handles much of this
> >information as a state secret) and more importantly, we have an
> >independent legal system in which private parties can sue to enforce
> >standards. In China, the courts are part of the political system, and
> >private rights are not only unenforceable but often treated as acts of
> >treason. Expecting any kind of quality control under these
> >circumstances is a delusion.-Jitney
>
> Read the original afticle closely. Go after the culprit not a whole
> country or a people. Any China enterprise that exports to the US does
> so in quantities by the containerful shipload. That is its big
> business. Its very easy for the buyer to specify manufacturing and
> safety standards and make them stick. Not to do so loses the
> business. Its common sense for someone paying good big bucks for
> goods to make sure they are safe. It doesn't take much to get the
> specs right and to get them tested for compliance on delivery. In
> sue happy US its a matter of self protection and good business
> practice.
>
> Anyway here's this development:
>
> China's about-face on product safety
> By Antoaneta Bezlova
> August 3, 2007http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China_Business/IH03Cb01.html
>
> BEIJING - Dogged by a plethora of reports in the foreign media
> highlighting problem Chinese goods and worried that product-safety
> recalls are spiraling into a major problem for its export juggernaut,
> Beijing has shifted gears to defend its battered "Made in China"
> reputation.
>
> On Wednesday, the world's largest toymaker, Mattel, announced a
> massive recall of Chinese-made toys because of excessive lead in their
> paint. Reluctant to acknowledge such problems when they first came to
> light several months ago, Chinese authorities are now daily rounding
> up companies suspected of faulty products. The safety crackdown on
> domestic producers has been accompanied by a public relations campaign
> aimed at international traders.
>
> "The Chinese government pays great attention to addressing flaws in
> product quality, especially the quality of food products," Li
> Changjiang, minister in charge of the General Administration of
> Quality Supervision, Inspection and Quarantine, said at a specially
> convened press conference.
>
> The government's acknowledgement of existing problems makes a
> remarkable departure for a bureaucratic system prone to cover-ups.
>
> When a pet-food ingredient produced in China was linked to the deaths
> of cats and dogs in North America in April, Beijing's first reaction
> was to deny it. "The poisoning of American pets has nothing to do with
> China," claimed a report in the Communist Party's flagship newspaper,
> the People's Daily.
>
> Export-control officials argued that food contamination occurred both
> within the United States and with US exports to China. "No
> food-inspection system is foolproof," Li Yuanping, director general of
> the Import and Export Food Safety Bureau, countered at the time.
>
> But international worries about China's exports have continued to
> mount with more and more reports about substandard and fake products
> coming to light. Since April, a slew of exports - including
> toothpaste, tires, seafood and toys - have been recalled or rejected
> around the world. What is worse, mislabeled drug ingredients in
> Chinese exports have been blamed for killing and injuring people in
> Panama and Haiti.
>
> As a result, China has come under political pressure from the US and
> the European Union, where politicians are demanding assurances about
> the quality and safety of Chinese exports.
>
> After slapping controls on China's seafood imports because of unsafe
> chemical residues found in farm-raised fish, the US administration
> dispatched its health chief for talks with Chinese officials this
> week.
>
> "Our US regulatory agencies are concerned about what they see as an
> insufficient infrastructure across the board in China to assure the
> safety, quality and effectiveness of many products exported to the
> United States," Mike Leavitt said in Beijing on Tuesday.
>
> Leavitt's mission to Beijing came on the heels of a visit by the head
> of the EU's consumer-protection agency, Meglena Kuneva, last week.
> Kuneva urged Chinese regulators to track down every producer of
> substandard goods and stop their exports to Europe.
>
> China's safety woes have not been limited to Europe and North America.
> Excessive antibiotic or pesticide residue has caused bans in Japan on
> Chinese poultry products, frozen spinach and tea. Hong Kong blocked
> imports of turbot fish last year after inspectors found traces of
> malachite green, a possible cancer-causing chemical used to treat
> fungal infections.
>
> Last year Taiwan too banned imports of hairy crabs from mainland China
> over traces of carcinogens. This June, Russia's federal agricultural
> authorities banned fish from China because of antibiotic
> contamination.
>
> Watching the volley of safety complaints, Chinese officials have grown
> worried that an all-around international campaign on problem goods
> could lead to sanctions and hurt the country's exports.
>
> Exports and foreign investment are the chief engines of China's
> booming economy. According to World Trade Organization statistics,
> China's total food exports reached US$246 billion in 2005, which is
> nearly eight times the $31 billion it exported in 1980.
>
> In a dramatic display of concern, two weeks ago China executed the
> former head of the State Food and Drug Administration (SFDA), Zheng
> Xiaoyu, for accepting bribes in return for granting government
> approval for various medicines in 2005.
>
> Experts say several agencies involved in safety and quality
> supervision, such as the SFDA and the General Administration of
> Quality Supervision, Inspection and Quarantine, squabble over the
> division of powers and tend to deny responsibility for mistakes.
>
> In recent weeks, the government has pledged to overhaul the
> regulations on food and drug safety and announced a nationwide quality
> and safety inspection. This week, Beijing issued a regulation holding
> local governments responsible for any major food poisoning or other
> health threat caused by contaminated or substandard food.
>
> Yet, while aiming to publicize its actions on safety controls, Beijing
> has also tried to limit future PR fallout. Newspapers in the capital
> have been warned against running negative news on food safety, even
> negative articles reprinted from newspapers in other regions, reported
> the Hong Kong-based South China Morning Post this week.
>
> Some observers are criticizing foreign media for exaggerating food
> safety.
>
> "All these negative reports and commentaries about 'Made in China' -
> it all smacks of psychological warfare," argued Zhang Guoqing, an
> expert on international affairs with the Chinese Academy of Social
> Sciences. "It is worth reminding detractors that China's trade surplus
> is a testimony to the opportunities and attraction of the Chinese
> economy."
>
> (Inter Press Service)
>
> Don't worry your pretty head about the crap Chinese sell to Chinese
> inside China. Chinese are not idiots. They count their pennies
> before they buy anything. The bad stuff don't get anywhere since
> there is so much choice from thousands of manufacturers for any item
> of merchandise. There are few if any national brands and the damage
> from any dangerous goods is localized. Shit happens and you can't
> catch them all everytime. For the occasional higher level fraud like
> fake pharmaceutical drugs the penalty is long jail terms and even the
> death penalty. There is none of this long court process with plea
> bargains and getting off on a technicality.

Quoting from your article:

"Yet, while aiming to publicize its actions on safety controls,
Beijing
has also tried to limit future PR fallout. Newspapers in the capital
have been warned against running negative news on food safety, even
negative articles reprinted from newspapers in other regions,
reported
the Hong Kong-based South China Morning Post this week."

It helps prove my point. Rather than address the problems directly,
the government is punishing the messengers.
Unless there is an independent civil judicial system in which private
companies and individuals (including foreigners who do business
in China) can get fair and equal treatment for their complaints before
an impartial judge, economic participants do business in China at
their
peril. There is also a systemic cultural bias against outsiders, who
are still considered "foreign devils".-Jitney

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Get FREE Satellite TV on your PC

http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/0f77df4168c9fd90?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 3 2007 1:12 pm
From: A Clark

Watch Satellite TV On Your Computer Without Paying Monthly Fees... FOR
FREE?

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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Mounting Old Linoleum on stained wood:
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/4fbc6acd9a149ff6?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 3 2007 2:17 pm
From: Cranky@nevermind.com

On Fri, 03 Aug 2007 12:58:32 -0400, George <george@nospam.invalid>
wrote:

>>
>> WARNING! Old linoleum was made with asbestos. And that sounds like what
>> you are describing. I'm not so sure it's safe to play with this stuff.
>>
>> Rick
>
>Why not? typically linoleum isn't friable.

He is going to mount it, not eat it.

COM

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 3 2007 3:49 pm
From: George

Cranky@nevermind.com wrote:
> On Fri, 03 Aug 2007 12:58:32 -0400, George <george@nospam.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>>> WARNING! Old linoleum was made with asbestos. And that sounds like what
>>> you are describing. I'm not so sure it's safe to play with this stuff.
>>>
>>> Rick
>> Why not? typically linoleum isn't friable.
>
>
> He is going to mount it, not eat it.
>
> COM

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/friable

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 3 2007 3:58 pm
From: "Don K"

"jwill" <john_williams1000@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1186156092.145073.159450@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> Not sure where to post this???
>
> I have some old, worn, rustic linoleum. Some of it looks like it's
> pressed onto a rough burlap / type material.
>
> I'd like to stain some hardwood plywood, and "mount" the linoleum
> pieces to it. Then put some sort of coating over the linoleum. These
> will be hung on the wall. Here are my questions:
>
> How should I "mount" the linoleum to the stained wood? Some type of
> spray adhesive? Can I use Polyurethane to mount it?
>
> How should I "coat over" the linoleum? Will Polyurethane work there
> too? I could poly the wood and linoleum in one shot?
>
> How about that stuff that you can put items in, so when it dries, it
> looks like they are "floating" in the solid. I've seen tabletops like
> that. Might that stuff work?
>
> Thanks for your input...
>

Plywood is not the best-looking wood around, IMO.

I would stick the linoleum to a hidden plywood backing using regular
linoleum adhesive and then frame the linoleum with strips of nicer wood,
so that it looks like linoleum inserts in some nice wood.

Also if it were me, I wouldn't coat it. I don't know what you now like about
the old, worn, rustic look, but it probably won't be the same if you put a
plastic slipcover over it.

Do they routinely coat artwork like the Mona Lisa in plastic?

Don

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 3 2007 3:57 pm
From: gheston@hiwaay.net (Gary Heston)

In article <1186156092.145073.159450@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
jwill <john_williams1000@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Not sure where to post this???

I'd have thought there would be a craft or art group,,,

>I have some old, worn, rustic linoleum. Some of it looks like it's
>pressed onto a rough burlap / type material.

>I'd like to stain some hardwood plywood, and "mount" the linoleum
>pieces to it. Then put some sort of coating over the linoleum. These
>will be hung on the wall. Here are my questions:

>How should I "mount" the linoleum to the stained wood? Some type of
>spray adhesive? Can I use Polyurethane to mount it?

I'd use contact cement or regular flooring adhesive. Lay waxed paper
over it, a board larger than the piece of linoleum, and weight it
with a few bricks until i cures.

>How should I "coat over" the linoleum? Will Polyurethane work there
>too? I could poly the wood and linoleum in one shot?

That should work fine. Test on a scrap piece to make sure.

>How about that stuff that you can put items in, so when it dries, it
>looks like they are "floating" in the solid. I've seen tabletops like
>that. Might that stuff work?

It would be difficult to do. Sandwiching it between two pieces of plate
glass would be much easier.

>Thanks for your input...

Sure. Regarding the asbestos warning, don't saw, sand, grind, drill, or
scrape the linoleum and you'll be fine.

Gary

--
Gary Heston gheston@hiwaay.net

http://www.thebreastcancersite.com/

Yoko Onos' former driver tried to extort $2M from her, threating to
"release embarassing recordings...". What, he has a copy of her album?

==============================================================================
TOPIC: An Easy Ethical Work from Home Solution
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/c27411602c8ecfc6?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 3 2007 6:21 pm
From: jeepinjgoff@gmail.com

Make Money on MySpace. After All that is really what MySpace was
intended for.
http://MySpaceDollars.blogspot.com/

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Make Money with Myspace -Ethical Approach
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/528f7194cf748056?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 3 2007 6:22 pm
From: jeepinjgoff@gmail.com

Affiliate sales, easy. And I am a skeptic, but it works.
check it out:
http://MySpaceDollars.blogspot.com/

==============================================================================
TOPIC: State Farm Bank
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/ba1fef856d30047b?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 3 2007 7:32 pm
From: Shawn Hirn

In article <1186126563.977205.254920@x35g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
jtnospam@yahoo.com wrote:

> On Aug 2, 9:57 am, larry <no...@home.com> wrote:
> > George Grapman wrote:
> > > Wayne Sallee wrote:
> >
> > >> I don't think that state farm bank, and state farm insurance are the
> > >> same, are they? State farm insurance in Florida is not good.
> >
> > > The bank is part of the parent insurance company.
> >
> > made me cringe, hope the bank is better at paying, than the
> > ins side paying your real loss. maybe your lawyer can get a
> > "supplemental" for your full deposit ;-)
> >
> > if you think SF is great, you haven't had a claim in the
> > last 10 years...
> >
> > -larry / dallas
>
> With all the zillions State Farm is making at cheating and delaying
> Hurricane Katrina victims, they should be able to pay enormous rates.

State Farm is skum. I paid them for many years for auto insurance. In
full, one time. Not once did I miss a payment or even be late for one. I
got into an accident (no injuries and no damage to the other vehicle,
but my fault). State Farm paid to have my car fixed, then when my policy
came up for renewal, they dropped me like a hot potato. In NJ where I
live, if your auto insurance company drops you, none of the other
carriers will talk to you. I ended up going into assigned risk and
getting reamed out the you know what for a couple of years as a result
of State Farm. As a result, I won't touch them with a ten foot poll, and
that includes their bank.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: How does one Reduce or Suspend thier Child Support
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/ec155f2ae812643f?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 3 2007 8:47 pm
From: "teleflora"

"Abe" <noone@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:4vhsa39ubung0699g4v8121n2lncs2hhop@4ax.com...
> I don't support the OPs spamming, but that aside, do you have any idea
> of the absolute abuse some women put their former husbands through
> when it comes to excessive child support? Women who have moved on to
> land rich lifestyles, but continue to insist on large child suppport
> payments, even though the father has no portion of custody or even
> visitation?

Land Rich Lifestyles! Oh yeah! Because we all know how often THAT happens!

Hahahhahahahahahah!

Cindy

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 3 2007 8:48 pm
From: "teleflora"

"timeOday" <timeOday-UNSPAM@theknack.net> wrote in message
news:LuidnaKWYdMUIDPbnZ2dnUVZ_uygnZ2d@comcast.com...
> ChairMan wrote:
>
>> and if can't or won't support what you produce, keep it it your damn
>> pants or STFU
>
> It's odd that people take that attitude towards men but not women. Oh,
> you didn't want that baby after all? Go ahead and kill it. Or not, your
> choice. No need to ask the father or anything, it's none of his
> business -- except to pay for whatever you decide of course.

Yup. That's pretty much how it works. When you can get pregnant, you get
to make the decisions.

Cindy

==============================================================================
TOPIC: HOW TO TRICKS?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/eef8ade453f7ff2d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 3 2007 9:53 pm
From: duke

HOW TO TRICKS?

Explore your tips and tricks online
http://tinyurl.com/2vyrjo

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Lotto-is-Poker welcome you all to visit our website
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/38df4a366e55b876?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 3 2007 11:16 pm
From: "lottoispoker@gmail.com"

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Friday, August 3, 2007

25 new messages in 12 topics - digest

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