Frugal Living: 25 new messages in 17 topics

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Nov 29 2007 12:19 am
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== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Nov 29 2007 1:21 am
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== 2 of 2 ==
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== 1 of 1 ==
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== 1 of 1 ==
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TOPIC: Space heaters?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/f26d977f5b136ec1?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Thurs, Nov 29 2007 3:18 am
From: nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu

Don K <dk@dont_bother_me.com> wrote:

>Oil-filled heaters heat mostly by convection but I guess people
>still like to call them radiators because they look like those
>old-fashioned "radiators" that connected to hot water or steam pipes.

Some call them radiators because they mostly radiate vs convect, even
with low surface temps :-) A 2'-tall 80 F 1 ft^2 vertical surface in
a 70 F room convects 0.19(80-70)^(4/3) = 4 Btu/h, in turbulent flow.
It radiates 0.1714x10^-8((460+80)^4-(460+70)^4) = 10 Btu/h.

Nick

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Thurs, Nov 29 2007 4:20 am
From: "Don K"

<nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu> wrote in message
news:fim76v$fa9@acadia.ece.villanova.edu...
> Don K <dk@dont_bother_me.com> wrote:
>
>>Oil-filled heaters heat mostly by convection but I guess people
>>still like to call them radiators because they look like those
>>old-fashioned "radiators" that connected to hot water or steam pipes.
>
> Some call them radiators because they mostly radiate vs convect, even
> with low surface temps :-) A 2'-tall 80 F 1 ft^2 vertical surface in
> a 70 F room convects 0.19(80-70)^(4/3) = 4 Btu/h, in turbulent flow.
> It radiates 0.1714x10^-8((460+80)^4-(460+70)^4) = 10 Btu/h.

That's surprising!

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Thurs, Nov 29 2007 6:47 am
From: Abe

>Ken Knecht wrote:
>> Any recommendations for an electric space heater? In the past those I've
>> purchased had or soon had noisy fans and sometimes inaccurate thermostats
>> (shut off too soon even at maximum heat setting (Holmes). I need it for
>> an approximately 12 x 12' bedroom.
From consumer Reports, October 2007

Space heaters
Add comfort with ease

The Holmes Quartz Tower, Pelonis Disc Furnace, DeLonghi SafeHeat Flat
Panel and Honeywell Low Profile Convection space heaters.

Our tests of the latest electric space heaters show that they provide
more-consistent heat than those we last tested. And while they're also
safer, space heaters still account for 40 percent of the deaths and 30
percent of the injuries each year in this country that are heating
related, according to the U.S. Fire Administration. Fuel-fired models
carry their own risks (see Safety risks).

All of the tested space heaters will comfortably warm a chilly room.
But remember, the only way to potentially save money is to use a
heater in one room and leave the rest of the house chillier.

Temperature control is key. Most of the heaters controlled room
temperature well. Eight models with a thermostat excelled, maintaining
temperature within 3° F or less. Buy a space heater without one, and
you'll have to turn it off at the desired temperature and on again to
heat. Heaters with multiple output settings let you choose the lowest
one that keeps a room comfortable, saving energy.

Safety varies among models. One space heater distinguishes itself with
a sensor that turns off the unit when the grille is touched. A
tip-over switch that shuts down a knocked-over heater is another
desirable feature; five tested models lack one.

High-priced models disappoint. Two heaters earned the lowest overall
scores. One provided only fair temperature control and ease of use.
Its boast that it can cut heating bills by up to half is questionable.
The other, equipped with an air purifier, provided lackluster
temperature control, cleaned the air poorly, and lacks an
overheat-protection feature.

CR Quick Recommendations
The Ratings rank models by overall performance within types. Quick
Picks lists models with performance and value.

Quick Picks
If you want a small or thin unit:
DeLonghi SafeHeat Flat Panel Micathermic HHP 1500 $80
Pelonis Disc Furnace VHC-461 $110
Honeywell Mini Tower 360 Surround HZ-2200 $30

All three models deliver excellent temperature control. The flat-panel
DeLonghi is quieter since it lacks a fan, and this lightweight model
can be mounted on a wall. The diminutive Pelonis and Honeywell have
longer power cords, providing more placement options without an
extension cord. The Honeywell is very noisy.

If you prefer a baseboard look:
Honeywell Low Profile Convection Heater HZ-519 $60, CR Best Buy

This heater is designed for placement along a wall, keeping it out of
the middle of the room. Very safe to use, this model runs quietly and
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If you want direct heat:
Holmes Quartz Tower HQH319 $60, CR Best Buy

Using quartz-tube elements to heat, the Holmes offers excellent
temperature control and 750- and 1,500-watt settings.

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Thurs, Nov 29 2007 8:04 am
From: Jeff

Don K wrote:
> <nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu> wrote in message
> news:fim76v$fa9@acadia.ece.villanova.edu...
>
>>Don K <dk@dont_bother_me.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Oil-filled heaters heat mostly by convection but I guess people
>>>still like to call them radiators because they look like those
>>>old-fashioned "radiators" that connected to hot water or steam pipes.
>>
>>Some call them radiators because they mostly radiate vs convect, even
>>with low surface temps :-) A 2'-tall 80 F 1 ft^2 vertical surface in
>>a 70 F room convects 0.19(80-70)^(4/3) = 4 Btu/h, in turbulent flow.
>>It radiates 0.1714x10^-8((460+80)^4-(460+70)^4) = 10 Btu/h.
>
>
> That's surprising!
>
>
Note the 4th power. If you knew that before you wouldn't have been
surprised!

Jeff

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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Nov 29 2007 3:30 am
From: malah

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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Nov 29 2007 4:00 am
From: jennymorris6@googlemail.com

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TOPIC: need help: intel core 2 duo or amd turion 64x2
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==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Nov 29 2007 4:01 am
From: Jon v Leipzig

AllEmailDeletedImmediately wrote:
> for laptop. not really into gaming or heavy graphic stuff, but would like
> to be able to run future programs with no problem. i really don't know the
> diff betw the 2.
>
>

Probably no need to read the entire 12 pages. This snippette is from the
last page; _Conclusions_

AMD Turion 64 X2 Meets Intel's Mobile Core 2 Duo

http://www.tomshardware.com/2007/02/27/dual_core_notebook_cpus_explored/

Intel's Core processor family is rather dominant, and clearly offers
better performance than the Turion 64 X2 family.
<snip>
Last but not least, keep processor performance in perspective: weight
and battery runtime may be even more important to you anyway. In the
end, we consider it very important to compare complete notebooks (and
their costs) rather than focusing on CPU performance too much.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Get step-by-step advice with the CNET laptop finder
http://reviews.cnet.com/laptops/

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== 1 of 1 ==
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TOPIC: Free Mp3 Music At www.songspedia.com
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/ce066c316fcc82fd?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Nov 29 2007 5:01 am
From: Majestics

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TOPIC: Get Paid $$$$ for Taking Online Surveys
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/32e94351db0d21fc?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Nov 29 2007 6:02 am
From: Mike

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TOPIC: Yall gotta check this out!
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Nov 29 2007 7:26 am
From: JohnnyArmani69@gmail.com

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==============================================================================
TOPIC: We Want Illegal Aliens Out of NY Out of USA!!!!!!!
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/96493c5f219e2cd7?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Nov 29 2007 7:33 am
From: Louie

http://www.star-telegram.com/245/story/290662.html

The best-kept secret: Enforcement actually works
By ERNEST ISTOOK
The Heritage Foundation

Once again, the states are rebelling against Washington.

Fed up with dithering in D.C., states are proving that enforcement
works. Enforcement can not only prevent illegal immigration but
actually reverse it.

Illegal immigrants by the tens of thousands are leaving states that
have adopted tough new laws -- Colorado, Georgia, Arizona and now
Oklahoma. Local efforts are being launched too quickly to count,
involving more than 100 communities so far.

When denied jobs or public benefits, many illegals return to Mexico.
Others move within the U.S. to areas with local amnesty policies.

Left-leaning groups are on the move, too, flocking to the courts in
efforts to block state and local enforcement. Only Congress is
standing still -- except for backsliding efforts to push more back-
door amnesty.

The details of the state and local laws vary, but the impact is
consistent. Typically, they deny public benefits to illegal immigrants
and try to make sure that employers don't hire them.

Oklahoma's law kicked in Thursday. Hispanic leaders claim that 25,000
illegal persons departed the Sooner State before the measure went into
effect. Businesses that catered to them say their sales are down 20
percent. They're backing a lawsuit challenging the new crackdown.

But the crackdown is a gain for taxpayers. Estimates show that illegal
immigrants cost Oklahoma taxpayers $200 million a year, mostly for
education and healthcare.

Arizona's new employer sanctions don't start until Jan. 1. A half
million undocumented people supposedly are awaiting the outcome of
court challenges, but The Arizona Republic still reports the
outmigration already tops 100 per day.

Because of Georgia's new law, businesses with an illegal-alien
customer base have seen sales drop as much as 40 percent. And money
wired from Georgia to Mexico and Central America declined. Similar
sales drops are reported elsewhere.

Colorado supplemented its new laws with a special detachment of state
troopers. An Aug. 31 report to the governor said the first month's
results "exceed anyone's expectations," catching 150 illegal
immigrants plus those who smuggle them.

State legislators this year introduced some 1,400 immigrant-related
bills, and 182 became law. Local ordinances were proposed or adopted
in 104 cities and counties.

Bucking the trend is Illinois, which passed a law prohibiting
employers from using a federal database to screen out illegal
immigrants. That's where the litigation trend cuts both ways: The
Department of Homeland Security is suing Illinois to force it to
comply, saying the state can't pick and choose which federal laws to
obey.

Current federal enforcement remains limited, focused on illegals who
have committed violent crimes but not on illegal immigration
generally.

So-called sanctuary/amnesty cities are clearly violating federal law,
as New York City learned from a U.S. Supreme Court ruling in 2000.
It's time for the feds to use that precedent and take other cities and
state scofflaws to court.

The battleground is swiftly shifting into court, where activist judges
are eager to side with border violators. One judge blocked federal
officials from notifying millions of employers that their workers may
be using false Social Security numbers. Hazleton, Pa., had its local
ordinance struck down. More lawsuits are pending. Enforcement works,
but liberals want to stifle it before people realize that.

The big claim is that immigration is solely a federal issue. If
activist judges block state and local enforcement, the public reaction
could rival the anger over decisions about abortion and forced busing.

But there's a difference this time: Those controversial rulings
claimed that the Constitution barred action by any level of
government.

By demonstrating that enforcement works, state and local governments
are clarifying the issues, and tens of thousands of illegal immigrants
are self-deporting. The public outcry that defeated the amnesty bill
this spring has found a new outlet, keeping the heat on Washington all
the way into the 2008 elections.
Ernest Istook is a distinguished fellow at the Heritage Foundation. He
served 14 years as a Republican congressman from Oklahoma.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Dump the Dollar, China State TV Tells Viewers
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/7ae0cbeede57b9a7?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Nov 29 2007 7:37 am
From: CycleSurfer

Your right America went bankrupt in 1933 as a direct result of WW1 not
1930. On Japan , either your wrong or the history channell and
history books are full of shit. We built airbases within a few
hundred miles of Japan which threatened them and goaded them into
attacking us. Furthermore, the eight-point memorandum by Lt. Cmdr.
Arthur McCollum and other evidence supports the assertion that
Roosevelt wanted war with Japan.

The Bankrupcy of the US is a matter of public record that you can look
up for yourself.

In 1933 the United States declared bankruptcy, as expressed in
Roosevelt's Executive Orders 6073, 6102, 6111, and 6260, House Joint
Resolution 192 of June 5, 1933, confirmed in Perry v. United States,
(1935) 294 U.S. 330-381, 79 L.ed 912, as well as 31 USC 5112, 5119,
and 12 USC 95A.

The bankrupt United States went into receivership, reorganized in
favor of 115 creditors and new owners. In 1913, Congress turned over
America... lock, stock and barrel to a handful of criminals whose
avowed intent from the beginning was to plunder, bankrupt, conquer,
and enslave the people of the United States of America and eliminate
this nation from the face of the earth. The goal was, and is, to
absorb America into a one-world private commercial government, a "New
World Order."

WW1 was the beginng of the FED that lead to the 1933 bankrupcy and
takeover of the Government of this country. You are living under an
illusion of America as a free republic. WE are actually a
democratic / socialist government with the Chairmen of the Fed as the
Govenor of the US.

With the Erie R.R. v Tompkins case of 1938, the Supreme Court
confirmed their success. We are now in an international private
commercial jurisdiction in colorable admiralty-maritime under the Law
Merchant. We have been conned and betrayed out of our sovereignty,
rights, property, freedom, common law, Article III Courts, and... our
Republic. The Bill of Rights has been statutized into "civil rights"
in commerce.

America has been stolen. We have been made slaves, i.e. permanent
debtors, bankrupt, in legal incapacity, rendered commercial "persons,"
"residents," and corporate franchisees known as "citizens of the
United States" under the so-called "14th Amendment." Said "Amendment,"
which was never ratified - see Congressional Record, June 13, 1967;

Dyett v. Turner, (1968) 439 P2d 266, 267; State v. Phillips, 1975
(affirmed) - created a citizenship for corporations, abstract
statutory entities which are the products and definitions of the
legislature and are fully taxable and regulatable thereby.

Thomas Jefferson's prophecy has come to pass: "If the American people
ever allow private banks to control the issue of currency... the
banks... will deprive the people of all property until their children
will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered."

So WW1 has lead to the economic destructio of the US. We are only
under the illusion of prosperity now and that house of cards is
starting to fall. Lowering interest rates will stave off the
inevitable for a little time but when it does come it will be much
worse. 1929 will look like a cake walk.

The fact you resort to Ad Hominem attacks prove that you are wrong
and know it.

Ad hominem arguments are always invalid in syllogistic logic. Ad
hominem arguments are rarely presented as formal syllogisms, and their
assessment lies in the domain of informal logic and the theory of
evidence. Your argument is based on a fallacy and red herring, and is
nothing but an emotional appeal.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
America Heads for the Trash Can of History

By Paul Craig Roberts

In new books writers as disparate as Naomi Wolf and Pat Buchanan
conclude that America as we know her is disappearing. Both writers
hope, but are not confident, that enough Americans will catch on in
time to find the leadership to pull America back from the brink.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article18784.htm

===========

The cold war started again and kicked into high gear. China, Russia
and the east have been meeting ever since we invaded Iraq working
together to bring us down a notch. We are seen as world bullies who
need to be taught a lesson. They will use economic weapons mostly.

Gorbachev sees U.S. missile plan in Europe targeting Russia:

Former Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev said Wednesday that he viewed a
U.S. plan to deploy a missile defense shield in Central Europe as
targeting Russia, not Iran.
http://snipurl.com/1ucao

===

Putin accuses U.S. of meddling in Russian vote:

Putin, drawing on resurgent nationalist sentiment ahead of Sunday's
poll, said Russia must maintain its defenses to discourage others from
"poking their snotty noses" in its affairs.
http://snipurl.com/1ucap
======================

A Dollar the Size of a Postage Stamp

By Mike Whitney

The dollar was savaged by the monetary policies of the Federal
Reserve. The Fed's policies were designed to coincide with Bush's
Middle East Crusade. They were supposed to work like two wheels on the
same axle.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article18781.htm

===

Impending Destruction of the US Economy

By Paul Craig Roberts

Hubris and arrogance are too ensconced in Washington for policymakers
to be aware of the economic policy trap in which they have placed the
US economy.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article18787.htm
===

Ron Paul is our only hope of getting through what is comming in 2009
intact. Otherwise I see very little hope for the United States.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Nov 29 2007 8:11 am
From: clams casino

CycleSurfer wrote:

>On Japan , either you're wrong or the history channell and
>history books are full of shit.
>

You are finally catching on to Rod.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: PSP PS2 PS3 Nokia N95 Hoodies Sunglasses Nokia N93 Nokia N70 Sony
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http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/b6caf1eb1008231d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Nov 29 2007 7:55 am
From: "shopbb.com"

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== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Nov 29 2007 8:03 am
From: "shopbb.com"

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== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Nov 29 2007 8:04 am
From: "shopbb.com"

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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Only 30k miles from tires?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/a84bf58bf2c23f50?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Nov 29 2007 8:16 am
From: me@privacy.net

Seems like my 2000 Mazda Protege ES just goes through
tires!

I just bought 4 new tires July 2006 and 30k miles later
(now) they are almost worn out.

Is 30k mile abt right for tire life now days?

What you get?

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Nov 29 2007 9:09 am
From: val189

On Nov 29, 11:16 am, m...@privacy.net wrote:
> Seems like my 2000 Mazda Protege ES just goes through
> tires!
>
> I just bought 4 new tires July 2006 and 30k miles later
> (now) they are almost worn out.
>
> Is 30k mile abt right for tire life now days?
>
> What you get?

I buy tires in the 80-90 dollars each range and get about 45 to 50
thousand miles. Set on car now is Bridgestone.

This is a tough subject to discuss - depends a lot on driver's habits
as well as the tire's quality. Are you braking at the last second,
cornering too fast...?

NEVER waste your money on retreads.

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Thursday, November 29, 2007

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