Frugal Living: 16 new messages in 7 topics

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

* Chrismas Trees - 3 messages, 3 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/14ff3a2698c21c95?hl=en
* Free Medicine Assistance - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/3397cfe18b32ccc6?hl=en
* More Selective reporting from Limbaugh - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/306db91f018962b9?hl=en
* Guardian: Carbon myths - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/22b3fd65a2728a83?hl=en
* Do Not buy from Circuit City - 4 messages, 3 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/3fb963f1666140e8?hl=en
* ※★www.netfashion2008.cn★→wholesale cheap Nike Air Jordan shoes jean belt
handbag coat watch mp3/mp4 - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/f3484a0a199eb9c6?hl=en
* www.fashion-sky.com wholesale cheap Nike Air Jordan shoes jean belt handbag
coat watch mobile phones - 5 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/a30bdf0823662530?hl=en

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Chrismas Trees
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/14ff3a2698c21c95?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 22 2007 4:24 pm
From: "Lou"

"clams_casino" <PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote in message
news:Fkhbj.24347$Wt7.20806@newsfe14.phx...
> >
> OK - Some Facts per This Week (Dec28-Jan11)
>
> Two out of three homes in US will have a real tree (29M in 2007 / $1.2B)
> which will be cut in a five week season
>
> 15k commercial tree growers plant 73M trees/yr on 450k acres across
> every state
>
> It takes 6-10 years for a tree to reach a saleable condition (about
> 2k/acre) - where many die along the way
>
> Most popular - Scotch pine (40%), Douglas Fir (35%) with noble fir,
> white pine, balsam fir & white spruce at about 15% each
>
> 2007 - 9.3M artificial trees sold averaging $68 mostly imported from
> China (up from 2M just five years ago) vs. $40 for a cut tree

Judging from my local shopping experience, a $68 artificial tree is three to
four foot table-top size, not a floor to ceiling seven to eight foot tree.
Haven't seen any full size "real" trees for $40 in this area for years,
maybe decades.

> Artificial trees are made from polyvinyl chloride which lasts for
> centuries when discarded into landfills

Apparently, aritificial trees average a four to five year useful life...

> Researchers estimate it takes five times more energy to make and ship a
> fake vs. cut tree

...so it appears to more or less average out, energy wise.

> Downside to cut trees is that each requires about 0.5 oz of pesticides
>
> Each acre of a typical tree farm produces enough O2 to sustain 18 people
> which also absorbs the CO2 produced by two cars for one year (26K
miles)

My real tree cost $60 this year. Comparable artificial trees seem to be
$200 and up. Cost-wise, if the figures on average useful life are correct,
it seems to be pretty much a wash. Where artificial trees win out is on the
fuss and muss - as I get older every year, the ease of an artificial tree
gets more attractive.

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 22 2007 4:39 pm
From: clams_casino

Lou wrote:

>"clams_casino" <PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote in message
>news:Fkhbj.24347$Wt7.20806@newsfe14.phx...
>
>
>>OK - Some Facts per This Week (Dec28-Jan11)
>>
>>Two out of three homes in US will have a real tree (29M in 2007 / $1.2B)
>>which will be cut in a five week season
>>
>>15k commercial tree growers plant 73M trees/yr on 450k acres across
>>every state
>>
>>It takes 6-10 years for a tree to reach a saleable condition (about
>>2k/acre) - where many die along the way
>>
>>Most popular - Scotch pine (40%), Douglas Fir (35%) with noble fir,
>>white pine, balsam fir & white spruce at about 15% each
>>
>>2007 - 9.3M artificial trees sold averaging $68 mostly imported from
>>China (up from 2M just five years ago) vs. $40 for a cut tree
>>
>>
>
>Judging from my local shopping experience, a $68 artificial tree is three to
>four foot table-top size, not a floor to ceiling seven to eight foot tree.
>Haven't seen any full size "real" trees for $40 in this area for years,
>maybe decades.
>
>
>
>>Artificial trees are made from polyvinyl chloride which lasts for
>>centuries when discarded into landfills
>>
>>
>
>Apparently, aritificial trees average a four to five year useful life...
>
>
>
>>Researchers estimate it takes five times more energy to make and ship a
>>fake vs. cut tree
>>
>>
>
>...so it appears to more or less average out, energy wise.
>
>
>
>>Downside to cut trees is that each requires about 0.5 oz of pesticides
>>
>>Each acre of a typical tree farm produces enough O2 to sustain 18 people
>>which also absorbs the CO2 produced by two cars for one year (26K
>>
>>
>miles)
>
>My real tree cost $60 this year. Comparable artificial trees seem to be
>$200 and up. Cost-wise, if the figures on average useful life are correct,
>it seems to be pretty much a wash. Where artificial trees win out is on the
>fuss and muss - as I get older every year, the ease of an artificial tree
>gets more attractive.
>
>
>
>
another source of Christmas tree facts, although much of the data appear
to be from 2002 - http://www.urbanext.uiuc.edu/trees/treefacts.html

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 22 2007 7:32 pm
From: "Don K"

"Lou" <lpogodajr292185@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:oYWdneHtdqhcN_DanZ2dnUVZ_vumnZ2d@comcast.com...
>
> "clams_casino" <PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote in message
> news:Fkhbj.24347$Wt7.20806@newsfe14.phx...

>> Artificial trees are made from polyvinyl chloride which lasts for
>> centuries when discarded into landfills
>
> Apparently, aritificial trees average a four to five year useful life...

I wonder where that came from.

I know 2 other people who have artificial trees. They have both
had them at least 20 years.

It seems to me, as long as you have space to store it properly,
it should last a very long time.

Don

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Free Medicine Assistance
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/3397cfe18b32ccc6?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 22 2007 4:32 pm
From: clams_casino

rvz1fqp4 wrote:

>Here is another site that I came across
>
>

What was the first site - your brother's web page?

==============================================================================
TOPIC: More Selective reporting from Limbaugh
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/306db91f018962b9?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 22 2007 6:12 pm
From: George Grapman

jdoe wrote:
> On Sat, 22 Dec 2007 11:57:28 -0500, jl <jl@nowhereszville.biz> wrote:
>
>> Limbaugh is a total blithering idiot. He never analyzes an issue
>> completely. It's all just one sided.
> since you know that already why do you listen to his show? I know that
> the NY Times is a slanted leftist propaganda tool, I don't read it.

If you don't read it how do you know it is slanted?
> __________________________________________
> Never argue with an idiot.
> They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Guardian: Carbon myths
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/22b3fd65a2728a83?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 22 2007 6:50 pm
From: don@manx.misty.com (Don Klipstein)

In article <476b5c45$0$10996$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>, Anthony Matonak wrote:
>Bill Rider wrote:
>> Now I'm curious about my monitor. When I get a chance I'll measure the
>> watts dim and bright. One energy-saving design scheme for handheld
>> devices is to sense the ambient light and adjust the backlight accordingly.
>>
>> This document says some LCD TVs allow an adjustment of of the backlight,
>> which can save 25%:
>>
>> http://www.energystar.gov/ia/partners/prod_development/revisions/downloads/tv_vcr/Ecos_Presentation.pdf

>
>It would depend on the source of the light. Big LCD displays typically
>use cold cathode fluorescent lights that can't be dimmed. Small LCD,
>like cell phones and PDAs, use LED backlights. LED backlights have
>started to surface in some high end LCD monitors because they produce
>better colors.

Cold cathode fluorescents can be dimmed, and actually do well with
dimming. The usual fluorescent problem with dimming is with the
more-usual (and more-efficient) hot cathode types.

If you have a monitor whose backlight is actually dimmable, then you can
get energy savings from the dimming. Problem is presence of means to dim
the backlight - a bit easier for LED, a bit more difficult for cold
cathode fluorescent, and a bit more difficult still with hot cathode
fluorescent.

- Don Klipstein (don@misty.com)

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Do Not buy from Circuit City
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/3fb963f1666140e8?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 22 2007 7:20 pm
From: don@manx.misty.com (Don Klipstein)

In article <1198287201_3043@sp12lax.superfeed.net>, JL wrote:
>
>>> Especially considering you then cancelled the order when you
>>> found that you couldn't arrange to have anyone pick it up after all.
>>>
>>> The scenario doesn't reflect badly at all on Circuit City, but on
>>> you as an unreasonable customer.
>>>
>>> Don
>
>My wife works at a Buick dealership and sees a lot of demanding
>customers everyday. Some people expect to buy the car for $50-$100 over
>dealer cost and to have their asses kissed thoroughly and completely the
>entire transaction.

I wish that someone going to a "stealership" to buy a new car and
offering $1,000 over dealer cost for an "express transaction" would get
such a thing rather than have no choice better than a "time wasting
contest" or a "urinating contest" against a "stealership" salescretin who
is eager to waste time into negotiating a deal good for him into some
sort of improvement to him at expense of waste of everyone's time, due to
car "stealership" "urinating contests" requiring some uptick of payoff to
the "stealership" even at expense of "stealership" salescretins trying for
other customers.

I speak from experience of having a close friend who spent some time
working for a "stealership". He makes me feel good by having every car I
ever owned being used cars that I bought from private individual sellers.

Who would I buy a used car from? Someone trained to sell cars, or other
than that such as a friend or Joe Blow or Joe Sixpack? Oh, and who among
these choices is trained to sell cars at expense of buyer - I would blame
someone trained to sell cars, especially someone selling new ones!

I would not want to buy a new car from anyone I would not want to buy a
used car from, unless I saved lots of ads for good deals in writing (in a
newspaper) and preferably also had someone in my family working in a law
firm.

I have an immediate blood relative being a lawyer and another not a
lawyer but working in a law firm and I still have spent the 11 years of my
life with car ownership being owning cheaper used ones that I bought from
friends or Joe Sixpack.

- Don Klipstein (don@misty.com)

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 22 2007 8:00 pm
From: George Grapman

Don Klipstein wrote:
> In article <1198287201_3043@sp12lax.superfeed.net>, JL wrote:
>>>> Especially considering you then cancelled the order when you
>>>> found that you couldn't arrange to have anyone pick it up after all.
>>>>
>>>> The scenario doesn't reflect badly at all on Circuit City, but on
>>>> you as an unreasonable customer.
>>>>
>>>> Don
>> My wife works at a Buick dealership and sees a lot of demanding
>> customers everyday. Some people expect to buy the car for $50-$100 over
>> dealer cost and to have their asses kissed thoroughly and completely the
>> entire transaction.
>
> I wish that someone going to a "stealership" to buy a new car and
> offering $1,000 over dealer cost for an "express transaction" would get
> such a thing rather than have no choice better than a "time wasting
> contest" or a "urinating contest" against a "stealership" salescretin who
> is eager to waste time into negotiating a deal good for him into some
> sort of improvement to him at expense of waste of everyone's time, due to
> car "stealership" "urinating contests" requiring some uptick of payoff to
> the "stealership" even at expense of "stealership" salescretins trying for
> other customers.
>
> I speak from experience of having a close friend who spent some time
> working for a "stealership". He makes me feel good by having every car I
> ever owned being used cars that I bought from private individual sellers.
>
> Who would I buy a used car from? Someone trained to sell cars, or other
> than that such as a friend or Joe Blow or Joe Sixpack? Oh, and who among
> these choices is trained to sell cars at expense of buyer - I would blame
> someone trained to sell cars, especially someone selling new ones!
>
> I would not want to buy a new car from anyone I would not want to buy a
> used car from, unless I saved lots of ads for good deals in writing (in a
> newspaper) and preferably also had someone in my family working in a law
> firm.
>
> I have an immediate blood relative being a lawyer and another not a
> lawyer but working in a law firm and I still have spent the 11 years of my
> life with car ownership being owning cheaper used ones that I bought from
> friends or Joe Sixpack.
>
> - Don Klipstein (don@misty.com)

Some suggestions-

Walk into the dealership and tell them you will pay no more than
$------- including taxes and fees. If they can not immediately meet your
needs begin to walk away. If they ask if you are financing or paying
cash ask them why that matters since it is illegal to have two sets of
prices. Eyeball the number of cars on the lot versus the number of
customers and note that fact to them. Tell them as you walk away that if
they can not meet a simple request you will never return.

When they do the "need to talk to my manager" routine tell them that
you are the decision maker on your end and you will only deal with a
decision maker on their end. Give them these choices:
The manager comes out to see you
You go into the managers office with the rep.
You leave.

If you are invited in to an office and left alone assume they are
listening. Talk to the person who you came with or pretend to make a
call. Say something like," this is not worth the hassle . I think I will
just keep the car I have" or ," you know, Jim is buying a new car, I
guess I should warn him about these assholes".

If you leave without buying tell the sales rep that if they are going
to call you the first thing they need to say when you answer is,"we are
taking $----------off the price we quoted" and if they say anything else
you will hang up.

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 22 2007 8:44 pm
From: George Grapman

Most of my jobs have been in sales but fortunately none of them have
been high pressure jobs a la "Tin Men" where you close them now or never
see them again.

I try to follow a few basics:

Let the customer do most of the talking. Ask them what their needs
are. I have walked out of places where O have been told," you don't was
this one,you want that one".

Encourage people to shop around.

Tell them some good reasons to buy from us.

Never denigrate the competition.

I sometimes give prospects my home phone so they know I can be
contacted if there is a problem. They never call it but it reassures.
them.

Instead on of package at one price give them choices and,most
importantly, give them time to think about it.

Three words give me more credibility than anything else I say. "I
don't know". So many sales reps will not admit this so they make things up.

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 22 2007 9:03 pm
From: Bill

SMS ???* ? wrote:
>
> The bigger lesson you should have learned is to _never_ use a debit card
> for big ticket items. You lose all the consumer protection that the Fair
> Credit Billing Act extends to credit card purchases. _You_ have to fight
> to get your money back in your account, rather than have the store fight
> to get the money from the credit card issuer.
>
> Always use a credit card for big ticket items. You gain important
> consumer protections, plus if you return or cancel the order within the
> same billing period, you're not out any money at all.

That is especially true for anything with a warranty since most
credit cards will double your warranty up to a full extra year.
It's a no-brainer for electronics.

Bill

==============================================================================
TOPIC: ※★www.netfashion2008.cn★→wholesale cheap Nike Air Jordan shoes jean
belt handbag coat watch mp3/mp4
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/f3484a0a199eb9c6?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 22 2007 11:02 pm
From: xiaoshifeng029@gmail.com

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TOPIC: www.fashion-sky.com wholesale cheap Nike Air Jordan shoes jean belt
handbag coat watch mobile phones
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/a30bdf0823662530?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 22 2007 11:32 pm
From: fashion-sky.001@hotmail.com

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UK: 2.5 3 3.5 4 4.5 5 5.5 6
EUR: 35.5 36 36.5 37.5 38 38.5 39 40

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US: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 7.5 8 8.5 9 9.5 10 10.5 11 11.5 12 12.5 13 13.5
UK: 13 1 2 3 4 5 6 6.5 7 7.5 8 8.5 9 9.5 10 10.5 11 11.5 12 12.5
EUR:17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 24.5 25 25.5 26 26.5 27 27.5 28 29 30 30.5
31