Frugal Living: 25 new messages in 11 topics

Saturday, February 16, 2008

25 new messages in 11 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Quit Buying Junk and Destroying tThe Globe
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/04c61287dda5c12d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 10:26 am
From: Drop_the_chalupa_RodSpeed

On Feb 16, 12:02 pm, Cheapo Groovo <c...@nospam.com> wrote:
> http://cheapogroovo.vox.com/library/post/the-story-of-stuff.html

Commie!

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 10:36 am
From: clams_casino

Drop_the_chalupa_RodSpeed wrote:

>On Feb 16, 12:02 pm, Cheapo Groovo <c...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>
>>http://cheapo
>>
>Commie!
>
>

Don't you mean SPAMMER?

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Stamps to Cost a Penny More
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/729cf5df8392523c?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 10:32 am
From: clams_casino

KarlMarx_MiddleClass_Ipod_HipHop wrote:

>On Feb 15, 3:48 pm, clams_casino <PeterGrif...@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:
>
>
>>A way to make a million dollars - buy up ten million stamps at 41 cents
>>each & resell them at 42 cents.
>>
>>vs. the ebay way - start with 2M & end up with 1M.
>>
>>
>
>
>100 million stamps needed @ 1 cent profit on arbitrage
>
>
>
It's called eBay math. Millions of eBayers think they are making money
with the same math.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Use patio furniture as front room furniture?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/f67d143f0a103614?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 11:05 am
From: Tony Sivori

me wrote:

> Am on a very tight budget
>
> anyone ever think abt using patio furniture indoors as front room
> furniture?
>
> You can buy a well made set of patio furniture.... chair, love seat,
> coffee table, end table... for abt $500 total. It is lightweight and
> sturdy and made of plastic "wicker".
>
> Anyone doing it? Work ok?
>
> see link
>
> http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=2519819

The only way I would consider that is if you have a patio, and you plan to
use it a lot. You could use the patio furniture as temporary living room
furniture until you could buy real living room furniture. Then move the
patio furniture to the patio. Otherwise, I don't think it would be money
well spent,.

If there is a Wal-Mart where you live there is almost certainly low end
furniture discounters. You should be able to get real living room
furniture for about the same price, but by the time you add end tables it
probably will be a little more.

If you simply can't afford it, you could buy some $20 bean bag chairs
until you can pay cash for your furniture.

In times past I would recommend used furniture, just as many in this
thread have already done. Now, I specifically recommend against used
furniture. Bed bugs are making a comeback, and since DDT is long outlawed,
they are very difficult to get rid of.

The common methods of transmission are hotel room stowaways in luggage and
used furniture, and not just mattresses.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bedbug

http://magazinearticles.angieslist.com/featuredarticles/2004_8.htm

http://www.ca.uky.edu/entomology/entfacts/ef636.asp

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Predictions on oil costs for next decade
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/4d8ed6676617cb7f?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 11:53 am
From: "Rod Speed"

Drop_the_chalupa_RodSpeed <kwokx2@hotmail.com> wrote
> Just A User <k...@up-yours-spammer.net> wrote
>> Drop_the_chalupa_RodSpeed wrote

>>> I bet oil drops a lot in price for the US consumer.

Unlikely while ever the USD keeps sagging.

>> Not likely as the global demand for oil keeps increasing.

> Yep, so if that is the case, maybe investing in energy conservation should pay off?

Not like that it wont whileever the US continues to keep pouring trillions down the rat hole called Iraq.

> I think we are on the brink of cheaper long-run energy costs via alternative energy.

Not a chance. We've been trying to do that for decades now, it aint gunna change any time soon.

> I am Pollyannish about it for a reason. Almost a devil's advocate too.
> Once fuel prices go to $4 or $5 or $ 6 per gallon here
> in the US, consumers will either stop consuming

Not for their cars they wont. They are such a fundamental part of the
design of modern citys now that there is no way to stop consuming.

> or look for a cheaper energy source.

We've been looking for decades now, we arent going to find one.

Higher oil prices will make a number of other alternatives competitive,
most obviously with hydrogen from nukes, but thats going to need
higher oil prices before thats viable, not lower.

> They will not care if they get 1% returns on their stocks or bonds
> or houses annually. They will want relief from paying an inordinate
> amount of their income to heat their houses or fuel their cars.

Sure, they will certainly want that. Pity we are fresh out of magic wands to wave to get it.

Certainly both can be done using nukes, but that needs higher
than current oil prices, its not viable with lower oil prices.

> The run-up in gasoline costs in the past 5 years has been met
> with no great increases in wages but increases in housing and
> insurance and just about anything that is necessary.

But lower interest rates, and thats where a hell of a
lot of the income of many ends up, most obviously with
mortgages and even renters effectively pay that too.

> Unless something gives and costs drop somewhere, take home pay for
> US consumer will not be geared for spending much on anything anymore.

Fantasy. We havent even seen many abandoning their gas guzzling SUVs for
more fuel efficient cars and have seen hordes with utterly bizarre commutes.
We havent even seen many of those get enough of a clue and use buses for
the commute. Or many work at home and stop commuting either.

> Extend credit only so long. That is why I think oil prices will need to drop.

It aint gunna happen for that reason and the US
consumer is only a small part of world demand anyway.

And the europeans have been paying twice what the US consumer pays for gasoline
for something like 50 years now without that having any effect on the price of oil.

> As other countries develop and devote more of their discretionary
> income to oil costs, they catch up to US standards of living.

Western europe has been doing that for 50 years or more now and
manage it fine with gasoline prices often twice what the US consumer pays.

> Say what you want RodSpeed, but the USA has a standard of living
> and low costs that many countries would really want to have.

Yes, and some like the chinese have much lower costs
and are getting the higher standard of living fine.

> I can not see average American going for reduced standards of living without deciding
> to bail on the oil companies eventually and starting home- grown energy projects.

Have fun heating your house that way in the city.

Have fun fueling your car that way in the city too.

You can certainly choose to eliminate the commute and work from home instead, but that
sort of work is very easy to export to india etc too where they get much lower wages again.

I think its unlikely that the oil price will drop all that much, essentially because
of the increased demand from places like india and china and everyone will
just have to adjust to the oil prices, just like we did in the past.

If the oil prices gets much higher, that will make nukes economically viable,
but they wont be without a higher oil price, particularly for fueling cars.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 3:47 pm
From: Cheapo Groovo

In article <54-dnb-0PJD8vCranZ2dnUVZ_uPinZ2d@giganews.com>, ken@up-
yours-spammer.net says...
> Drop_the_chalupa_RodSpeed wrote:
> > I bet oil drops a lot in price for the US consumer.
>
> Not likely as the global demand for oil keeps increasing.
>

http://cheapogroovo.vox.com/library/post/oil-outlook.html
This is the reality. Wake up folks!

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Walmart Nothern VA - Wii
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/cadc8cd3f533d8a1?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 12:18 pm
From: Mike

Anyone know if Walmart will sell Wii? I went to the Walmart in
Woodbridge by Potomac Mills Mall and 4 Walmart employees said they
don't know. Plus they won't credit my son's Wii console gift card.
Thanks
Mike

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Que: Grits Instant or Quick?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/74702e56ec43a313?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 1:23 pm
From: ">=Martin=<"

This is a Southern question. I make Quaker Instant grits in the
microwave. What is the difference in 'instant' and 'quick' grits? Do
they cook the same way?

==============================================================================
TOPIC: How many therms (natural gas) do you use per day (per month)?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/99d004d38152f87d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 11 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 12:24 pm
From: "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"

I'm curious how I compare with others in my natural gas usage.

I used 120 therms in the past 30 days (about 4 therms per day).
HOW MANY THERMS DID YOU USE LAST MONTH?

I do realize that there are _many_ factors that affect usage but there is
only one number for your final usage. That's what I'd like to compare.

== 2 of 11 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 1:28 pm
From: "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"

> I used 120 therms in the past 30 days (about 4 therms per day).
> HOW MANY THERMS DID YOU USE LAST MONTH?

I should note that California alots only 2 therms a day for baseline costs
of about $1.22 per therm (plus 5 cents per therm PPP Surcharge); so
apparently I'm consuming double the natural gas energy California allows
(regardless of home size or number of people) for base rates.

The over-baseline charges are $1.37 per therm plus that same 5 cents per
therm additional charge for poor people (i.e., the California Gas PPP
Surcharge).

Does ANYONE actually use just 2 therms per day for their gas furnace and
hot-water heater for two people living in a small 1,500 sqft house?

== 3 of 11 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 2:14 pm
From: Anthony Matonak

Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator wrote:
>> I used 120 therms in the past 30 days (about 4 therms per day).
>> HOW MANY THERMS DID YOU USE LAST MONTH?
...
> Does ANYONE actually use just 2 therms per day for their gas furnace and
> hot-water heater for two people living in a small 1,500 sqft house?

I'm only one person but I average about 5 therms a month.
In the winter it's slightly more.

Anthony

== 4 of 11 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 2:31 pm
From: Jeff

Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator wrote:
> I'm curious how I compare with others in my natural gas usage.
>
> I used 120 therms in the past 30 days (about 4 therms per day).
> HOW MANY THERMS DID YOU USE LAST MONTH?
>
> I do realize that there are _many_ factors that affect usage but there is
> only one number for your final usage. That's what I'd like to compare.

Well, how cold is your climate? How well insulated is your house? What
is your indoor temperature?

I'm in a mild climate (~ 2700 degree days a year, that's cooler than
LA and warmer than San Francisco) with nightime average lows in the
30's. Currently I'm all electric, with electric space heaters and am
living in about half of a 2000 SF house. I used 850 kWhrs or about 30
therms last month and I think it may have historically been a bit above
average in temps.

Now, I actively try to reduce consumption (I'm in a 1920 house). Your
useage for a mild climate seems high to me. Not for a cold climate though.

Jeff

== 5 of 11 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 2:41 pm
From: "Colbyt"

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
message news:yvItj.756$pl4.153@newssvr22.news.prodigy.net...
> I'm curious how I compare with others in my natural gas usage.
>
> I used 120 therms in the past 30 days (about 4 therms per day).
> HOW MANY THERMS DID YOU USE LAST MONTH?
>
> I do realize that there are _many_ factors that affect usage but there is
> only one number for your final usage. That's what I'd like to compare.

We use about 100MCF per year for 2600 square feet. We used 22.3 or almost a
1/4 of our yearly usage last month.

That was with a 37.7 average daily temperature. That should be our coldest 4
weeks of the winter. Knock on wood! :)

To be fair, I was home more during the day than normal so I over-rode the
setback more.

Once upon a time I could convert therms to MCF but that is long since
forgotten.

== 6 of 11 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 2:55 pm
From: Rick Blaine

"Colbyt" <colbyt@-SPAMBLOCK-lexkyweb.com> wrote:

>Once upon a time I could convert therms to MCF but that is long since
>forgotten.

10.31 therms = 1 MCF

== 7 of 11 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 3:15 pm
From: "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"

On Sat, 16 Feb 2008 14:14:46 -0800, Anthony Matonak wrote:
> I'm only one person but I average about 5 therms a month.

Wow. 5 therms a month is extremely low, it seems to me.

The US Department of Energy assumes the "average" houshold uses a bit less
than 1/2 a therm a day *just* for the water heater alone!

43,302 kJ/day = 41,045 Btu/day = 0.4105 therm/day

That would be 15 therms a month just for hot water for the average
household in America. I wonder if Europe uses the same amount?

REFERENCES:
Calculating water heater costs for meaningful comparisons
http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/W/AE_water_heater_cost.html
365 × 0.4105/EF × fuel cost (therm) = estimated annual cost of operation

Review of hot water heaters
http://www.consumersearch.com/www/house_and_home/water-heaters/review.html
365 X 0.4105/EF X Fuel Cost (therm) = estimated annual cost of operation

== 8 of 11 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 3:36 pm
From: CJT

Colbyt wrote:
> "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
> message news:yvItj.756$pl4.153@newssvr22.news.prodigy.net...
>
>>I'm curious how I compare with others in my natural gas usage.
>>
>>I used 120 therms in the past 30 days (about 4 therms per day).
>>HOW MANY THERMS DID YOU USE LAST MONTH?
>>
>>I do realize that there are _many_ factors that affect usage but there is
>>only one number for your final usage. That's what I'd like to compare.
>
>
> We use about 100MCF per year for 2600 square feet. We used 22.3 or almost a
> 1/4 of our yearly usage last month.
>
> That was with a 37.7 average daily temperature. That should be our coldest 4
> weeks of the winter. Knock on wood! :)
>
> To be fair, I was home more during the day than normal so I over-rode the
> setback more.
>
> Once upon a time I could convert therms to MCF but that is long since
> forgotten.
>
>
FWIW, we used 43 MCF last year. About half that was for cooking and hot
water, and the other half for heating (but it's pretty warm here in
Texas).

--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form che...@prodigy.net.

== 9 of 11 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 3:40 pm
From: CJT

Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator wrote:

> On Sat, 16 Feb 2008 14:14:46 -0800, Anthony Matonak wrote:
>
>>I'm only one person but I average about 5 therms a month.
>
>
> Wow. 5 therms a month is extremely low, it seems to me.
>
> The US Department of Energy assumes the "average" houshold uses a bit less
> than 1/2 a therm a day *just* for the water heater alone!
>
> 43,302 kJ/day = 41,045 Btu/day = 0.4105 therm/day
>
> That would be 15 therms a month just for hot water for the average
> household in America.

FWIW, we're apparently almost exactly average.

I wonder if Europe uses the same amount?
>
> REFERENCES:
> Calculating water heater costs for meaningful comparisons
> http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/W/AE_water_heater_cost.html
> 365 × 0.4105/EF × fuel cost (therm) = estimated annual cost of operation
>
> Review of hot water heaters
> http://www.consumersearch.com/www/house_and_home/water-heaters/review.html
> 365 X 0.4105/EF X Fuel Cost (therm) = estimated annual cost of operation

--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form che...@prodigy.net.

== 10 of 11 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 3:53 pm
From: Tony Hwang

Jeff wrote:
> Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator wrote:
>
>> I'm curious how I compare with others in my natural gas usage.
>>
>> I used 120 therms in the past 30 days (about 4 therms per day).
>> HOW MANY THERMS DID YOU USE LAST MONTH?
>>
>> I do realize that there are _many_ factors that affect usage but there is
>> only one number for your final usage. That's what I'd like to compare.
>
>
>
> Well, how cold is your climate? How well insulated is your house? What
> is your indoor temperature?
>
> I'm in a mild climate (~ 2700 degree days a year, that's cooler than
> LA and warmer than San Francisco) with nightime average lows in the
> 30's. Currently I'm all electric, with electric space heaters and am
> living in about half of a 2000 SF house. I used 850 kWhrs or about 30
> therms last month and I think it may have historically been a bit above
> average in temps.
>
> Now, I actively try to reduce consumption (I'm in a 1920 house). Your
> useage for a mild climate seems high to me. Not for a cold climate though.
>
> Jeff
Hi,
What is therm? Here in Alberta measurement is by the Giga Joule.

== 11 of 11 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 3:53 pm
From: Jeff

Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator wrote:
> On Sat, 16 Feb 2008 14:14:46 -0800, Anthony Matonak wrote:
>> I'm only one person but I average about 5 therms a month.
>
> Wow. 5 therms a month is extremely low, it seems to me.
>
> The US Department of Energy assumes the "average" houshold uses a bit less
> than 1/2 a therm a day *just* for the water heater alone!

That is really low. But how much hot water do you use and how well
insulated is the tank? Also, that average is probably for a 4 person
household.
>
> 43,302 kJ/day = 41,045 Btu/day = 0.4105 therm/day

OK. That's about 62 gallons of water raised 80F each day (That's 2 1/2
CCF / month), not including losses. An good insulated blanket will cut
tank thermal losses dramatically for much less cost than a tankless.
>
> That would be 15 therms a month just for hot water for the average
> household in America. I wonder if Europe uses the same amount?

Nobody wastes energy like the US.

Jeff
>
> REFERENCES:
> Calculating water heater costs for meaningful comparisons
> http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/W/AE_water_heater_cost.html
> 365 × 0.4105/EF × fuel cost (therm) = estimated annual cost of operation
>
> Review of hot water heaters
> http://www.consumersearch.com/www/house_and_home/water-heaters/review.html
> 365 X 0.4105/EF X Fuel Cost (therm) = estimated annual cost of operation

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Find a Discount Gucci Handbag - Find Sales on Discount Gucci Handbags
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/686cd5718add69d1?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 2:53 pm
From: swg4khpbqhsww7bdsncc@gmail.com

A Discount Gucci Handbag Can Be Acquired At A Reasonable Price

A discount Gucci handbag can be acquired at a reasonable price. There
are actually many ways of doing this. Of course the most obvious and
probably the most time consuming, but for many people the most
enjoyable way of doing this is to cruise flea markets checking out the
bargain bins. At times a discount Gucci handbag can be acquired by
this method just by luck. By becoming a constant and steady shopper at
the flea market you may be among the first to find a discount Gucci
handbag when the old owner donates it to the flea market and that will
truly make your day.

Find Gucci Handbags on Sale at:

http://handbagsonsalenow.com/discount-gucci-handbag.html

Also Many Other Top Brand Names on Sale at Above Site !

Other Searches:

http://handbagsonsalenow.com/discount-designer-handbag.html

authentic prada handbags ebay
authentic designer purses for less
authentic designer bags
purses handbag
authentic fendi bags
authentic handbag
discount authentic designer bags
authentic christian dior
authentic prada purses
discount authentic designer handbag
novacheck handbag
replica handbag
womens handbag
berberry purse
handbag sale
leather handbag
discount handbag
berberry scarf
handbag knockoffs
wallet handbag
fake designer purse
prada
balenciaga handbag
rent designer bags
luggage handbag
clutch handbag
vintage handbag
faux designer bags
replica designer handbags
wholesale handbag
chloe paddington inspired handbags
chloe paddington lock bag
chloe large paddington bag
fake chloe handbags
real chloe bags
chloe replica paddington handbags
chloe handbags online
replica chloe handbags
chloe tekla handbag
chloe paddington saddle bag
coach imitation
vintage handbag
coach totes
wholesale handbag
coach goods
prada handbags
purses handbag
soccer bags
soccer handbags
ebay handbag
luggage handbag
designer inspired purse parties
designer wallets
designer knock off
fendi designer
clutch handbag
vintage handbag
designer inspired handbags for
wholesale designer inspired bags
designer inspired fashion
handbag accessories
discount designer handbags uk
balenciaga handbag
luggage handbag
discount marc jacobs handbag
designer wallets
cheap designer purse
designer knock off
cheap real designer handbags
fendi designer
cheap beach bags
cheap designer purse
cheap bowling bags
garment bags wholesale
cheap leather chairs
wilson leather discount
discount gift bags
wholesale handbag
cheap sleeping bags
new york wholesale handbags
discount dooney & bourke purse
dooney and bourke change purse
dooney and bourke charm purse
dooney & bourke signature quilt double long handle handbag
dooney and bourke handbag knockoffs
dooney and bourke purses and handbags
dooney and bourke heart bags
dooney and bourke doodle bags
dooney bourke coin purse
discount dooney bourke handbags
handbag accessories
designer handbag knock offs
fake designer purse
hottest designer handbags
rent designer bags
faux designer bags
replica designer handbags
borrow designer handbags
used designer bags
italian designer handbags
guess fashion
handbag ladies
balenciaga handbag
belt handbag
radley handbag
replicas handbag
luggage handbag
large handbag
guess replica
guess knockoffs
homemade candy bags
handmade leather scrapbook
handmade evening bags
handmade messenger bags
handmade handbag designs
handmade leather briefcase
handcrafted leather handbags
homemade sleeping bags
handcrafted handbags
homemade christmas gift bags
leather purse handles
large leather handbags
italian leather handbag
leather shaving bag
leather coin purse
leather duffel bag
leather tote bags
black leather tote bag
cheap leather handbag
black leather bags
louis vatton
purses handbag
authentic handbag
louis luggage
prada handbag replicas
french louis
authentic prada purses
authentic prada handbag
ebay handbag
louis purses
mary frances jewelry
mary frances designer
mary frances hand bags
purses handbag
authentic handbag
mary frances antique handbag
ebay handbag
dooney and bourke handbag
mary frances guru handbag
suede handbag
prada leather
handbag accessories
dolce and gabbana purse
prada brown handbag
knock off prada bags
prada hobo bags
prada milano purse
fendi patent leather
prada bags com
balenciaga handbag
designer handbag fakes
fake designer purse
balenciaga handbag
designer wallets
replica designer watches
designer knock off
fendi designer
designer knockoff purse
fendi knockoff handbags
clutch handbag
authentic handbags
replica designer bags
replica handbags com
replica handbags for sale
balenciaga handbag
dolce and gabbana replica handbags
authentic purses
replica juicy handbags
replica chloe handbags
star replica handbag
Burberry Handbags
Fendi Handbags
Replica Louis Vuitton Handbags
Designer Replica Handbags
Replica Designer Handbags
Handbags Wholesale
Wholesale Replica Handbags
Discount Coach Handbags
Brighton Handbags
Knockoff Handbags

Find Gucci Handbags At Sale Prices at:

http://handbagsonsalenow.com/discount-gucci-handbag.html

And Many More Brand Names At Sale Prices At Above Site !! Start Saving
Today!

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Was my home purchase in 2006 frugal?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/9d0f58de213b13b6?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 2:54 pm
From: Ron Peterson

On Feb 16, 8:56 am, Joe <joe5...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 15, 11:38 pm, Ron Peterson <r...@shell.core.com> wrote:

> > Per month, of course. So, if you can rent something for $2,000 per
> > month, it isn't a good idea to buy it for $400,000.

> This cannot be true in the Northeast. If so no home would be a good
> investment.

The way I see it is that you need to spend about 6% interest expense,
2% depreciation, 1% maintenance, 2% taxes, and 1% for realtor expense
giving a total 12% per year cost for the value of the house.

--
Ron

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/e565eaf98e0e70b6?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 2:57 pm
From: "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"

On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 11:53:00 -0800 (PST), 58plumbers@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 11:53:00 -0800 (PST), 58plumbers@gmail.com wrote:
> But it still doesn't say where the "magic" 41,045 BTU comes from.

Whatever magic it is, googling for 41045 BTU gets *lots* of related PDFs!

Residential ACM Manual: Water Heating Calculation Method, page 8
http://www.energy.ca.gov/title24/2005standards/residential_acm/2005_RES_ACM_APP_RG.PDF
The standard energy in the hot water delivered, 41,045 Btu/day.

Comments on Energy Star Ratings of Home Water Heaters, Page 5
http://www.energystar.gov/ia/partners/prod_development/new_specs/downloads/water_heaters/controlled_energy_corp.pdf
Using the formula: 41,045 Btu/EF($/Btu)*365

ENERGY STAR Residential Water Heaters: Analysis, page 10
http://www.energystar.gov/ia/partners/prod_development/new_specs/downloads/water_heaters/WaterHeaterSecondDraftCriteriaAnalysis.pdf
Energy consumption estimated using the DOE test procedure.
Based on the following formula: (41,045 BTU/EF x 365)/100,000

LIFE CYCLE COSTS AND SAVINGS FOR WATER HEATING SYSTEMS, page 3
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/solar/ush2o/pdfs/life_cycle_costs_info_sheet.pdf
The annual delivered energy is 14.98 MMBtu (41045 Btu/day).

OPERATING GUIDELINES AND STANDARDS FOR WATER HEATING SYSTEMS, page 32
http://www.solar-rating.org/standards/ogdocuments/OG300SEP02.pdf
Total Energy Draw 43.302 MJ (41,045 Btu)

Consumers Directory of Home Water Heater Ratings, page

http://www.gamanet.org/gama/inforesources.nsf/vAttachmentLaunch/BA8B7EB0CFA8AFEF85256E9000609F9A/$FILE/12-07-oil-rwh.pdf
Using the formula: 41045 Btu/EF($/Btu)*365

Calculating water heater costs for meaningful comparisons
http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/W/AE_water_heater_cost.html
You need to know the unit cost of fuel
365 × 41045/EF × fuel cost (BTU) = estimated annual cost of operation
365 × 0.4105/EF × fuel cost (therm) = estimated annual cost of operation

Review of hot water heaters
http://www.consumersearch.com/www/house_and_home/water-heaters/review.html
365 X 41045/EF X Fuel Cost (BTU) = estimated annual cost of operation
365 X 0.4105/EF X Fuel Cost (therm) = estimated annual cost of operation

On-demand water heaters, page 8
http://www.naffainc.com/PDF-Files/on%20demand%20water%20heater.pdf
.41045 x cost per therm of gas x 365 / EF = yearly cost to operate

etc.

I would guess any engineer should be able to tell us what this 41,045 magic
number really is.

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 3:08 pm
From: "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"

On Sat, 16 Feb 2008 22:57:32 GMT, Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator
wrote:
> I would guess any engineer should be able to tell us what this 41,045 magic
> number really is.

I'm surprised a chemist or engineer isn't on this group.

I think this is the fundamental answer!

page 11, Water Heating Calculations
http://www.green-trust.org/2000/solar/solar.pdf
43,302 kJ/day is 41,045 Btu/day is the energy delivered to the hot water
load per day

And, this one says most plumbers don't understand the efficiency factor for
home water heaters

Residential Gas Water Heating:
Program Design & Specification Considerations, page 6
http://www.cee1.org/cee/mtg/09-07ppt/Tuesday/6%20Residential%20%20Gas%20water%20heating.ppt
Annual Savings (Therms/year) is based on the DOE Test Procedure:
(41,045 Btu/EF*365)/100,000

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 3:09 pm
From: "hallerb@aol.com"

On Feb 16, 5:57�pm, "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"
<donna....@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 11:53:00 -0800 (PST), 58plumb...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 11:53:00 -0800 (PST), 58plumb...@gmail.com wrote:
> > But it still doesn't say where the "magic" 41,045 BTU comes from.
>
> Whatever magic it is, googling for 41045 BTU gets *lots* of related PDFs!
>
> Residential ACM Manual: Water Heating Calculation Method, page 8http://www.energy.ca.gov/title24/2005standards/residential_acm/2005_R...
> The standard energy in the hot water delivered, 41,045 Btu/day.
>
> Comments on Energy Star Ratings of Home Water Heaters, Page 5http://www.energystar.gov/ia/partners/prod_development/new_specs/down...
> Using the formula: 41,045 Btu/EF($/Btu)*365
>
> ENERGY STAR Residential Water Heaters: Analysis, page 10http://www.energystar.gov/ia/partners/prod_development/new_specs/down...
> Energy consumption estimated using the DOE test procedure.
> Based on the following formula: (41,045 BTU/EF x 365)/100,000
>
> LIFE CYCLE COSTS AND SAVINGS FOR WATER HEATING SYSTEMS, page 3http://www1.eere.energy.gov/solar/ush2o/pdfs/life_cycle_costs_info_sh...
> The annual delivered energy is 14.98 MMBtu (41045 Btu/day).
>
> OPERATING GUIDELINES AND STANDARDS FOR WATER HEATING SYSTEMS, page 32http://www.solar-rating.org/standards/ogdocuments/OG300SEP02.pdf
> Total Energy Draw 43.302 MJ (41,045 Btu)
>
> Consumers Directory of Home Water Heater Ratings, pagehttp://www.gamanet.org/gama/inforesources.nsf/vAttachmentLaunch/BA8B7...
> Using the formula: 41045 Btu/EF($/Btu)*365
>
> Calculating water heater costs for meaningful comparisonshttp://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/W/AE_water_heater_cost.html
> You need to know the unit cost of fuel
> 365 � 41045/EF � fuel cost (BTU) = estimated annual cost of operation
> 365 � 0.4105/EF � fuel cost (therm) = estimated annual cost of operation
>
> Review of hot water heatershttp://www.consumersearch.com/www/house_and_home/water-heaters/review...
> 365 X 41045/EF X Fuel Cost (BTU) = estimated annual cost of operation
> 365 X 0.4105/EF X Fuel Cost (therm) = estimated annual cost of operation
>
> On-demand water heaters, page 8http://www.naffainc.com/PDF-Files/on%20demand%20water%20heater.pdf
> .41045 x cost per therm of gas x 365 / EF = yearly cost to operate
>
> etc.
>
> I would guess any engineer should be able to tell us what this 41,045 magic
> number really is.

maybe its a test standard somehow.

i have seen tanks under 30,000 BTU

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Check out my blog, I provide money saving tips and coupons
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/923d858b84ad6681?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 3:23 pm
From: choppa504@gmail.com

Check out my blog and let me know what you think.

http://savethatmoney.blogspot.com/

Thanks

==============================================================================

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "misc.consumers.frugal-living"
group.

To post to this group, visit http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

To unsubscribe from this group, send email to misc.consumers.frugal-living-unsubscribe@googlegroups.com

To change the way you get mail from this group, visit:
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/subscribe?hl=en

To report abuse, send email explaining the problem to abuse@googlegroups.com

==============================================================================
Google Groups: http://groups.google.com?hl=en

Frugal Living

Blog Archive

Saturday, February 16, 2008

25 new messages in 11 topics - digest

No comments: