http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en
misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com
Today's topics:
* supreme court to determine obama presidential eligibilty - 3 messages, 3
authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/546a49e0512f561c?hl=en
* 533,000 Jobs Lost While Feds Import 140,000 Foreign Workers! - 13 messages,
8 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/a1526898a9ebc1d2?hl=en
* Man Saves Subway Tons of Money Using a Hair Net - 2 messages, 2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/a78e8eb7308efcd5?hl=en
* Miss Manners on credit cards and protective clerks/managers - 2 messages, 2
authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/d050e2dac2223a44?hl=en
* Earn Extra Bucks Online During your Free Time - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/7cc3b8be340b50a5?hl=en
* Is keeping a car 50 years frugal? - 3 messages, 3 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/973c7ade053ebb0f?hl=en
* Tax Fraud, cancer, and the IRS - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/78b4d9d9aca35c0e?hl=en
==============================================================================
TOPIC: supreme court to determine obama presidential eligibilty
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/546a49e0512f561c?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 11:59 pm
From: "AllEmailDeletedImmediately"
<sgallagher@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:76db2928-59db-4684-8d0a-6d6a3d4f802f@j32g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
On Dec 7, 7:44 pm, "Dave" <no...@nohow.not> wrote:
> "JR Weiss" <jrwe...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
>
> news:ghhodm$fdj$1@news.motzarella.org...
>
> > "AllEmailDeletedImmediately" <der...@hotmail.com> wrote ...
>
> >>>> OK, I found it. No. 08A407. But this suit accepts that Obama was born
> >>>> in the USA and was an American citizen at birth.
>
> >>> And? Again, a citizen is not eligible to be President. -Dave
>
> >> correct. american citizenship does not automatically constitutionally
> >> qualify one to be prez
>
> > However, an American citizen who achieved that citizenship by virtue of
> > being born in the US IS a "natural born" citizen, and therefore meets
> > the
> > basic criterion!
>
> Unless you become a citizen of another country where you can not hold dual
> citizenship.
Only if that other country requires you to go to the officials of your
original country and formally renounce citizenship according to the
original country's laws, and then return to them with proof that you
really did renounce your original citizenship. Otherwise, the fact
that this other country does not allow dual citizenship would have no
effect upon a person's US citizenship.
the u.s. didn't allow dual citizenship except with israel at that time. i
pretty sure.
i think it may have changed, but i know that when my youngest was born
overseas,
we had to take steps to register him for a u.s. state department bc. so,
even if
the other country allowed dual citizenship, i don't think the u.s. allowed
it then
and maybe not now, except for israel.
== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 8 2008 4:31 am
From: "Dave"
>
> What do you think "natural born citizen" means if it doesn't mean they
> were born in the USA?
>
> If Marie Elizabeth Elg was a "natural born citizen" despite the fact
> that both her parents were foreigners and despite the fact that she
> spent most of her childhood on foreign soil, why would you think that
> Obama is not?
>
> http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=307&invol=3
> 25
I'm going by reports that Obama was a citizen of Indonesia and only
Indonesia at some point in his life. If that is true, then...
while he was a citizen of Indonesia, he was not a citizen (natural born or
otherwise) of any other country, to include the U.S.A.
So then logically, if you become a citizen of the U.S.A sometime AFTER you
are born, you can not be a "natural born" citizen of the U.S.A., even if
many years earlier you WERE a "natural born" citizen of the U.S.A.
That is why I believe the much-disputed birth certificate is a red herring
anyway. Even if it was released and authenticated, it would only prove that
Obama was a citizen at some point. And it wouldn't matter. -Dave
== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 8 2008 7:22 am
From: "sgallagher@rogers.com"
On Dec 8, 2:59 am, "AllEmailDeletedImmediately" <der...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> <sgallag...@rogers.com> wrote in message
>
> news:76db2928-59db-4684-8d0a-6d6a3d4f802f@j32g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
> On Dec 7, 7:44 pm, "Dave" <no...@nohow.not> wrote:
>
>
>
> > "JR Weiss" <jrwe...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
>
> >news:ghhodm$fdj$1@news.motzarella.org...
>
> > > "AllEmailDeletedImmediately" <der...@hotmail.com> wrote ...
>
> > >>>> OK, I found it. No. 08A407. But this suit accepts that Obama was born
> > >>>> in the USA and was an American citizen at birth.
>
> > >>> And? Again, a citizen is not eligible to be President. -Dave
>
> > >> correct. american citizenship does not automatically constitutionally
> > >> qualify one to be prez
>
> > > However, an American citizen who achieved that citizenship by virtue of
> > > being born in the US IS a "natural born" citizen, and therefore meets
> > > the
> > > basic criterion!
>
> > Unless you become a citizen of another country where you can not hold dual
> > citizenship.
>
> Only if that other country requires you to go to the officials of your
> original country and formally renounce citizenship according to the
> original country's laws, and then return to them with proof that you
> really did renounce your original citizenship. Otherwise, the fact
> that this other country does not allow dual citizenship would have no
> effect upon a person's US citizenship.
>
> the u.s. didn't allow dual citizenship except with israel at that time. i
> pretty sure.
At the time, the US policy was strongly against dual citizenship, but
it was not outrightly prohibited. There were also several ways that a
person could lose US citizenship back then, ways that no longer
exist. Many of those ways of losing US citizenship ended up being
removed due to the Supreme Court decision of Afroyim v. Rusk in 1967.
Because this decision was based on a Constitution interpretation,
people who were told, prior to that decision, that they had lost their
citizenship were able to have their cases re-adjudicated and their
citizenship restored, if they wished. Others who may have performed
an action that would have resulted in loss of their US citizenship,
but who were never formally told that their
citizenship was revoked, don't have to worry about it ever having been
lost. By the way, there was no special allowance for dual citizenship
with Israel. It's just that Israeli nationality law was written in
such a way that it did not invoke any of the provisions that caused
loss of US citizenship. For example, at the time, swearing alleiance
to a foreign country or applying for that country's citizenship would
normally cause loss of US citizenship. Israeli law conferred Israeli
citizenship upon any Jew who immigrated there under Israel's law of
return, without that person having to actually apply for the Israeli
citizenship or to swear any oath of allegiance to Israel. Since,
other countries did not do this, it meant that for many years, Israeli
citizenship was the only one that could be acquired by a US citizen
(after birth), that would not cause loss of US citizenship because
acquisition of Israeli citizenship did not trigger any of the ways
that caused loss of US citizenship.
But, a person who was born with both US and other citizenships, was
allowed to keep both citizenships as long as he didn't violate any of
the parts of law that would cause loss of US citizenship.
==============================================================================
TOPIC: 533,000 Jobs Lost While Feds Import 140,000 Foreign Workers!
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/a1526898a9ebc1d2?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 13 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 8 2008 1:27 am
From: suds macheath
George wrote:
> suds macheath wrote:
>> clams_casino wrote:
>>> suds macheath wrote:
>>>
>>>> clams_casino wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> John Galt wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But, why would a retired engineer want to get up at 6AM and be
>>>>>> grading papers in front of the TV at night for 30K per year?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> What teacher gets $30k /yr other than perhaps newly hired, just out
>>>>> of college? Here, they are paid an AVERAGE of $60k
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----How many of those have doctorates or masters degrees, and have
>>>> been teaching for 20+ years? All of them?
>>>
>>>
>>> That's the average. Those with masters tend to be paid $75k and
>>> up. I'm not too sure many at the elementary / Jr high / High
>>> school level have doctorates.
>>>
>>> http://cspf.wordpress.com/2007/02/07/questioning-teacher-salaries-2/
>>> is a typical RI situation. Granted, teachers put in much over time,
>>> but but salary position doesn't? I, for example, typically worked
>>> an extra 8-12 hrs/ week (no overtime). Most I know in the corporate
>>> world do / did similar overtime (without additional pay).
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> plus very generous
>>>>
>>>>> benefits benefits with very generous holiday, sick time and
>>>>> vacation time that no engineer could ever expect to see.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---I'm sure benefits at large corporations are comparable....
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> What corporation provides 12 weeks vacation per year?
>>
>> ---Teacher's don't get paid through the summer months....they are 10
>> month employees...you have to work for a while to save up 60 vacation
>> days.....and here they are limited to 60 days....
>
> Public school teachers salaries in PA are annual. They can choose to be
> paid either as weekly or divided by the number of weeks of the school
> session.
----Sounds like they are paid for ten months and may choose to have
their pay divided over 12 months, just like here. The summer months
aren't a vacation....
>
>>
>> Other than UAW
>>> and government employees, I'm not aware of many paying full (or even
>>> 90%) health coverage.
>>
>> ----But most have health care benefits for salaried employees, do they
>> not?
== 2 of 13 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 8 2008 1:31 am
From: suds macheath
clams_casino wrote:
> suds macheath wrote:
>
>>
>> ---Teacher's don't get paid through the summer months..
>
>
> Call it what you want. They average $60k around here
----After being on the job 20+ years with at least a masters degree....
for a job that
> provides them with 12 weeks
----unpaid....
and a dozen holidays off.
----Spent grading papers and catching up....
Try to find that
> in the corporate world.
----Sure....why haven't you jumped on the gravy train, if it's such a
cushy job?
>
>
>> ..they are 10 month employees...you have to work for a while to save
>> up 60 vacation days.....and here they are limited to 60 days....
>>
>> Other than UAW
>>
>>> and government employees, I'm not aware of many paying full (or even
>>> 90%) health coverage.
>>
>>
>> ----But most have health care benefits for salaried employees, do they
>> not?
>
>
> But typically at about 40-50% - not 90m- 100%.
Why haven't you jumped on the gravy train, if it's such a cushy job?
Can't cut it?
== 3 of 13 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 8 2008 1:39 am
From: suds macheath
George wrote:
> clams_casino wrote:
>> suds macheath wrote:
>>
>>> clams_casino wrote:
>>>
>>>> John Galt wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> But, why would a retired engineer want to get up at 6AM and be
>>>>> grading papers in front of the TV at night for 30K per year?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What teacher gets $30k /yr other than perhaps newly hired, just out
>>>> of college? Here, they are paid an AVERAGE of $60k
>>>
>>>
>>> ----How many of those have doctorates or masters degrees, and have
>>> been teaching for 20+ years? All of them?
>>
>>
>> That's the average. Those with masters tend to be paid $75k and
>> up. I'm not too sure many at the elementary / Jr high / High school
>> level have doctorates.
>>
>> http://cspf.wordpress.com/2007/02/07/questioning-teacher-salaries-2/
>> is a typical RI situation. Granted, teachers put in much over time,
>> but but salary position doesn't?
>
> In my state that would be teachers. In my state the most powerful labor
> union is the PSEA which represents the public school teachers.
>
> Most of my jobs have been salaried and I have a comparable eduction to a
> teacher. I have a number of friends and relatives who are teachers.
>
> A typical teacher works six hours/day here. It is pretty unusual for
> them to take work home since they have a 1 hour study period where they
> can also do grading. If a new teacher works harder they are quietly
> pulled and the side and told to cut it out and follow whatever is in the
> workbooks. Their union contracts require that at least two teachers must
> be present for any event be it a bake sale or sporting competition. They
> get an additional $150 each for up to 2 hours for this.
----Sounds too good to be true....why aren't you on the gravy train.....
>
>
>
> I, for example, typically worked an
>> extra 8-12 hrs/ week (no overtime). Most I know in the corporate
>> world do / did similar overtime (without additional pay).
----Sounds like you're a fool for not teaching, if teaching's such a
well paid, cushy job....
>>
> Mr too, that isn't unusual at all. I remember one year where I worked
> every Saturday and Sunday besides the 10 hour weekdays without
> additional pay.
----Sounds like you're a fool for not teaching......
>
>>
>>>
>>> plus very generous
>>>
>>>> benefits benefits with very generous holiday, sick time and vacation
>>>> time that no engineer could ever expect to see.
>>>
>>>
>>> ---I'm sure benefits at large corporations are comparable....
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> What corporation provides 12 weeks vacation per year? Other than
>> UAW and government employees, I'm not aware of many paying full (or
>> even 90%) health coverage.
>
> In PA the union teachers have an ultra deluxe Blue Cross health plan
> that was crafted especially just for them. There is zero possibility for
> out of pocket expense.
---They don't pay premiums for their families?
This costs us over $1,800/month for each teacher.
> And as you stated they get 12 weeks paid vacation,
---They don't get paid for the summer months, do they? It takes years to
build up 60 vacation days....
all holidays and if
> there is a hint of snow they can just hit the snooze button because a
> snow day will be called.
----Why haven't you got on the gravy train?
Can't cut it?
== 4 of 13 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 8 2008 2:54 am
From: Kurt Ullman
In article <qIGdnQUaIt4jwKHUnZ2dnUVZ_jWdnZ2d@earthlink.com>,
"HeyBub" <heybub@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote:
> Some of the declining RN/patient ratio has to do with automation. Nurses no
> longer have to take your temperature, heart rate, and blood pressure every
> hour - they can watch it minute-by-minute on the monitors at the nurse's
> station. The amount of paperwork has gone down as computers take over more
> and more of the record-keeping.
Not in the real world. The really neat things are only in the ICUs
and similar units, not on the floors where most of the action is. Even
then you still have to write down or otherwise acknowledge that you
actually looked at the vital signs. The amount of paperwork has
drastically increased over the years I was a nurse. And I was working
Psych which is a lot less paper-intense than most areas since we most
often work with physically healthy patients.
== 5 of 13 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 8 2008 3:15 am
From: Han de Bruijn
Kurt Ullman wrote:
> In article <qIGdnQUaIt4jwKHUnZ2dnUVZ_jWdnZ2d@earthlink.com>,
> "HeyBub" <heybub@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Some of the declining RN/patient ratio has to do with automation. Nurses no
>>longer have to take your temperature, heart rate, and blood pressure every
>>hour - they can watch it minute-by-minute on the monitors at the nurse's
>>station. The amount of paperwork has gone down as computers take over more
>>and more of the record-keeping.
>
> Not in the real world. The really neat things are only in the ICUs
> and similar units, not on the floors where most of the action is. Even
> then you still have to write down or otherwise acknowledge that you
> actually looked at the vital signs. The amount of paperwork has
> drastically increased over the years I was a nurse. And I was working
> Psych which is a lot less paper-intense than most areas since we most
> often work with physically healthy patients.
From the Netherlands: the amount of paperwork has drastically increased
over the years in the hospitals, here too, and has not gone down.
Han de Bruijn
== 6 of 13 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 8 2008 3:30 am
From: Kurt Ullman
In article <6n%_k.325994$6p1.302292@en-nntp-07.dc1.easynews.com>,
John Galt <kady101@gmail.com> wrote:
> I agree. What we've created is a bastardized system where free market
> price controls have been removed.
>
>
This pretty much started with (surprise!) an expedient decision by
the federal government. During WWII, people were starting to get a
little restive about wage controls. The Feds decided that if the
employer wanted to pay for part of the health insurance premium that
wasn't a raise. The employers (quite rightly) said that's cool but we
get to deduct it off OUR taxes just like we do the wages. The Feds said
"Okey Dokey", but did not think at the time to let the individual do the
same for theirs.
This set in motion much of what you see today. It (through that tax
thing above) tied health insurance to the job. It divorced the people
using the service (you and me) from those actually paying for the
service (the employer and later the Feds). It made the employer the main
customer of the insurance company and not the user of the service (which
helps explain a lot of the managed care and HMO stuff). It lead to a
large subsidy of the service (an annual report from the Office of the
Actuary at Medicare says that 80% of all out of pocket expenses for
healthcare--including the o-o-p part of the premium-- is paid by someone
other you and me) with the attendant dislocations in demand that are
seen when something is that heavily subsidized. (Which of course are
made worse by the barriers to admission of new supply since I can't just
hang out my shingle and say I am a doctor).
The advent of MCaid added to the problems by setting an effective
floor on what was considered good benefits which was further complicated
by actions of (largely) the automakers in the 70s and early 80s when it
was actually cheaper to give increases in health insurance than real
money. This put the floor even higher for most policies.
As an aside: I tend to wax and wane on whether to feel sorry for the
current honchoes of the big Three or feel they got their comeuppance in
many respects (g).
BTW: The annual report from the Office of the Actuary at Medicare
cited above for the o-o-p expenses also shows that that %age diving from
50% in the early 60s to around 18% by the mid-80s. A similar graph shows
the takeoff of healthcare as a %age of GDP going up as the o-o-p goes
down. Coincidence? I think not!
The US has managed this rather shaggy dog healthcare system where
all of the constraints on demand have been removed but no constraints on
costs have been insituted until relatively recently and then only in a
slap dash fashion. Most of the other places when they removed
constraints on demand (universal health care paid largely invisibly
through taxes, etc) added constraints on supply. Some through queueing,
some through availability of newer and thus more expensive tech and
medications, some through just not offering some services.
Add to that the fact that we are trying to now administer a chronic
healthcare system by grafting it onto the existing acute system. The
patchwork of state-regulation of national insurance companies,
especially where each state has differing requirements for minimum
coverage that are more political than medical (the next study that shows
any outcome differences from the so-called "drive-by delivery" will be
first one).
Two things to conclude this particular screed. (1) Someone recently
in an article I read suggested that maybe we should actually try to
establish a healthcare system before we tear it down and little in the
current healthcare methodology is systematic. (2). In a similar fashion,
I point out that the heavy subsidy of healthcare is hardly indicative of
a free market, so maybe we should actually try a free market healthcare
system before we decide it won't work.
== 7 of 13 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 8 2008 4:42 am
From: clams_casino
suds macheath wrote:
>
> Why haven't you jumped on the gravy train, if it's such a cushy job?
> Can't cut it?
Never considered it when I was younger. It would be a serious
consideration if I was entering college today.
My brother switched to a teaching career when he was about forty. He
thoroughly enjoys those 12 week summer vacations as well as the extra
holiday and mid winter breaks. He admits the job has its ups and downs,
but it's primarily the administration rather than the kids that are the
problem. Nevertheless, he has claims to have no regrets dumping the
40+ hr corporate job. If nothing else, his job will never be out
source, plus the health and retirement benefits are outstanding.
== 8 of 13 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 8 2008 4:44 am
From: clams_casino
suds macheath wrote:
>>>
>>
>>
>> In PA the union teachers have an ultra deluxe Blue Cross health plan
>> that was crafted especially just for them. There is zero possibility
>> for out of pocket expense.
>
>
> ---They don't pay premiums for their families?
>
>
Not much around here. Full family coverage was 100% covered until
recent years, but now they are paying about 5%.
== 9 of 13 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 8 2008 4:49 am
From: clams_casino
aemeijers wrote:
> Not saying most school systems are paragons of financial efficiency,
> because I know from personal experience that they are not. But in
> fairness to teachers, the 1260 hours a year to base salary on is a
> crock. Every teacher I have ever known had at least a couple hours
> prep work at night, several hours on weekends, plus quite often
> various 'other duties as assigned' at their school, helping out with
> early or late activities.
I'm not aware of many salaried professionals who do not routinely work
beyond 40 hrs (without pay).
Unless they had well-paid spouses, most of the teachers I have known
have had to take summer gigs teaching or working in other professions to
make ends meet.
A good friend of ours who teaches middle school French visits France
ever year as a tax deductible expense to "improve" French skills. Nice
perk.
> There is a reason the burnout rate is so high- it is a hard job. I'd
> put it right up there with primary-care nursing and street police
> work, and for similar reasons.
>
> --
> aem sends...
Teaching is not for everyone, just as true of other professions. It's
the reason salaries ramp up significantly with years experience. That's
way to keep some that might throw it in.
== 10 of 13 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 8 2008 5:19 am
From: John Galt
Kurt Ullman wrote:
> In article <6n%_k.325994$6p1.302292@en-nntp-07.dc1.easynews.com>,
> John Galt <kady101@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>> I agree. What we've created is a bastardized system where free market
>> price controls have been removed.
>>
>>
> This pretty much started with (surprise!) an expedient decision by
> the federal government. During WWII, people were starting to get a
> little restive about wage controls. The Feds decided that if the
> employer wanted to pay for part of the health insurance premium that
> wasn't a raise. The employers (quite rightly) said that's cool but we
> get to deduct it off OUR taxes just like we do the wages. The Feds said
> "Okey Dokey", but did not think at the time to let the individual do the
> same for theirs.
> This set in motion much of what you see today. It (through that tax
> thing above) tied health insurance to the job. It divorced the people
> using the service (you and me) from those actually paying for the
> service (the employer and later the Feds). It made the employer the main
> customer of the insurance company and not the user of the service (which
> helps explain a lot of the managed care and HMO stuff). It lead to a
> large subsidy of the service (an annual report from the Office of the
> Actuary at Medicare says that 80% of all out of pocket expenses for
> healthcare--including the o-o-p part of the premium-- is paid by someone
> other you and me) with the attendant dislocations in demand that are
> seen when something is that heavily subsidized. (Which of course are
> made worse by the barriers to admission of new supply since I can't just
> hang out my shingle and say I am a doctor).
> The advent of MCaid added to the problems by setting an effective
> floor on what was considered good benefits which was further complicated
> by actions of (largely) the automakers in the 70s and early 80s when it
> was actually cheaper to give increases in health insurance than real
> money. This put the floor even higher for most policies.
> As an aside: I tend to wax and wane on whether to feel sorry for the
> current honchoes of the big Three or feel they got their comeuppance in
> many respects (g).
> BTW: The annual report from the Office of the Actuary at Medicare
> cited above for the o-o-p expenses also shows that that %age diving from
> 50% in the early 60s to around 18% by the mid-80s. A similar graph shows
> the takeoff of healthcare as a %age of GDP going up as the o-o-p goes
> down. Coincidence? I think not!
> The US has managed this rather shaggy dog healthcare system where
> all of the constraints on demand have been removed but no constraints on
> costs have been insituted until relatively recently and then only in a
> slap dash fashion. Most of the other places when they removed
> constraints on demand (universal health care paid largely invisibly
> through taxes, etc) added constraints on supply. Some through queueing,
> some through availability of newer and thus more expensive tech and
> medications, some through just not offering some services.
Yep. I always have a nice laugh when some proponent of nationalized care
says something stupid like "we have a free market health care system
now, and look at where it got us."
When some government (city, state, local, whatever) is paying nearly 50%
of all the health care billing in the country, you obviously don't have
a free market system, unless you have redefined the term "free market"
rather significantly.
> Add to that the fact that we are trying to now administer a chronic
> healthcare system by grafting it onto the existing acute system. The
> patchwork of state-regulation of national insurance companies,
> especially where each state has differing requirements for minimum
> coverage that are more political than medical (the next study that shows
> any outcome differences from the so-called "drive-by delivery" will be
> first one).
> Two things to conclude this particular screed. (1) Someone recently
> in an article I read suggested that maybe we should actually try to
> establish a healthcare system before we tear it down and little in the
> current healthcare methodology is systematic. (2). In a similar fashion,
> I point out that the heavy subsidy of healthcare is hardly indicative of
> a free market, so maybe we should actually try a free market healthcare
> system before we decide it won't work.
We're on the same page. Unfortunately, no politician has yet been able
to fully articulate a free market vision.
JG
== 11 of 13 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 8 2008 6:14 am
From: "HeyBub"
Mike wrote:
>>
>>
>> They had no shame.
>
>
> there's very little evidence that msft ever had any good programmers
> judging by product quality which is as bad as it gets.
## People vote with their wallets. Microsoft on 92% of the world's desktop
is a pretty compelling vote.
> sure they
> eventually developed an os that doesn't crash every 10 minutes but
> that was written by what, one or two programmers? how many tens of
> $billions of monopoly profits obtained by highly predatory
> monopolistic antitrust violating activities did it take for that to
> happen?
## Monopolies are, in general, good. The people who rail against them are
usually the competitors. The arch villain, Standard Oil, brought down the
price of kerosene from $3.00/gallon to five cents. In three years. Of course
the people who supplied whale oil for lighting were upset, but the ghouls no
longer owned the night.
## Microsoft has never engaged in predatory monopolistic antitrust
practices - at least according to a few courts and thousands of lawyers who
routinely get prospective clients that want to allege such. Heck, most of
the software that runs on Macs was written by Microsoft!
> not to mention how many decades behind the technology curve
> they were in implementing the core of a stable system (ie. memory
> management), twenty years at least behind what was standard in
> computer science, not to mention the plethora of systems already
> using the technology. no, msft's millionaires didn't come from
> technology, it came from sales/marketing and a whole lot of antitrust
> violating "innovation".
## You live in an alternate universe where "best" is equated with
technological superiority. I suggest that universality is more important
that technological prowess. Word Perfect (or even Wordstar) may be a
technologically better product than Word, but if everyone to whom you send
such a document has to either ignore it or re-format it or download a
reader, you've just increased the entropy of the computer world.
> now that's not to say that there weren't any
> msft millionaires that had the title of "programmer", but their
> success is more properly attributed to being in the right place at
> the right time (under the astronomically huge waterfall of antitrust
> violating monopoly profits)
## Yep. Woody Allen said "90% of success is just showing up." I'd say that
"showing up at the right place" is implied. Again, Microsoft has never
violated U.S. antitrust laws - there is no law against being a monopoly.
There ARE laws against monopolistic practices, but Microsoft has never been
shown to have engaged in these prohibited tactics.
> because in the real world (outside of the
> fiction created within the walls of msft) applications like talking
> paperclips & "microsoft bob" just don't cut it. so the point being
> that all the programmers that didn't happen to be working for msft
> could see the writing on the wall, and the smart ones reacted
> accordingly...
## Well, yeah, Microsoft has made product mistakes that even their sales
prowess couldn't overcome. So did Ford with the Edsel. Likewise "New Coke."
Being large doesn't confer perfection. But you must allow that Microsoft
generally makes fewer (marketing) mistakes than it's competition.
FULL DISCLOSURE
Just because I own a few thousand shares of MSFT in no way colors my
comments or perception of the company!
== 12 of 13 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 8 2008 6:15 am
From: "hallerb@aol.com"
locally teachers with 10 years experience are making just under a 100
grand ......
way more than the average pay of residents
looks like national unemployment will go to over 10%
bushes legacy costs are going to be killers
== 13 of 13 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 8 2008 7:46 am
From: BobR
On Dec 8, 8:15 am, "hall...@aol.com" <hall...@aol.com> wrote:
> locally teachers with 10 years experience are making just under a 100
> grand ......
>
> way more than the average pay of residents
>
> looks like national unemployment will go to over 10%
>
> bushes legacy costs are going to be killers
That may be true where you live but that is far from the case
elsewhere. Where I live, teachers with 10 years experience are lucky
to make $40k per year.
==============================================================================
TOPIC: Man Saves Subway Tons of Money Using a Hair Net
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/a78e8eb7308efcd5?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 8 2008 3:07 am
From: Salford1
For the T, big net savings
Repair foreman used his head(gear) to fix costly problem
By Mac Daniel, Globe Staff | May 4, 2006
Tom McHale is a hero at the MBTA, not for saving lives, but for saving
a lot of money thanks to steak tips, electrical tape, and a 5-cent,
fine-mesh hair cap.
The Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority -- challenged by a high
debt load, an aging train fleet, and opposition to a proposed fare
increase -- is plagued every winter with train motors failing in snowy
conditions. The cost to repair them is staggering, and the cost to
replace them is even higher. The failures on the Orange and Red lines
during recent winters were crippling service.
So in late 2004, after a day rebuilding or replacing such motors on
the Orange Line, McHale, a father of two from Reading who works as a
repair foreman in the Wellington carhouse, was in a Boston wholesale
butcher shop buying steak tips for a Patriots playoff game when he was
required to put on a ''bouffant style" protective cap to cover his
hair.
McHale, 42, said he then noticed that a nearby butcher's head was
about the same size as the air intake cover on the failing Orange Line
motors.
He bought his steak tips and pocketed the hair cap. A few days later,
he taped it to an Orange Line motor. Eureka! The air got in, but the
snow stayed out. ''It fit perfect," McHale said.
The polypropylene hair caps melted in extreme conditions, but never
caught fire. They could be put on the entire 102-car fleet in short
order. And best of all, a box of 1,000 cost $50. A bargain.
''That's what we used to pay for them," Louis Downs, maintenance
supervisor for the Orange Line, said yesterday. ''Once word about this
gets out, we'll probably have to pay more."
Last winter, the T experienced no traction motor failures because of
snow, thanks in part to McHale's hair cap idea. Though conditions this
past season were mild, T officials estimate his solution will save the
agency $126,000 in repairs in an average year.
Snow has historically messed with train engines, especially on the
Orange Line, which runs 8.8 of its 11 miles outside and a large
portion of that in the walled corridors south of downtown.
Light snow is often sucked up by a moving train, goes under the
chassis, and is drawn into a caged air intake designed to cool the
motors. Over time, with stops and starts, the snow melts and refreezes
into 3-inch-thick squares that block the intake, causing the motors to
overheat or catastrophically fail.
''You don't run your blender in the bathtub," McHale said. ''Snow and
these motors just don't mix."
Historically, T officials said, a major snowstorm results in failure
of an average 14 of the 480 motors running the Orange Line's 102 cars.
Rebuilding such a motor costs about $9,000. Replacing it costs between
$35,000 and $50,000.
On the Red Line, where service was crippled by failing motors during
the winter of 2004-2005, the motors are configured differently and
can't benefit from the Orange Line's unique solution, T officials
said.
Prior to the hair cap, T maintenance tried an assortment of materials
to block the snow, from the stuff used in Tyvek protective clothing to
burlap.
Nothing has worked as well as the hair cap, which is now part of the
T's standard operating procedure on the Orange Line.
Prior to snowstorms, ''All traction motor intake filter cage
assemblies shall be wrapped with a protective hair net (HELCO part
number KC 36809), taking care to fully cover any possible opening
where the ingestion of snow is possible," Orange Line operating
documents read. ''The hair net shall then be secured using standard
1/2-inch electrical tape. . . . Protective hair nets shall be removed
in the spring to afford maximum cooling of motors" in summer.
McHale is being promoted and will be honored by the T today for his
idea, complete with a demonstration using a disassembled Orange Line
traction motor.
Mac Daniel can be reached at mdaniel@globe.com.
== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 8 2008 7:16 am
From: MSfortune@mcpmail.com
On Dec 8, 6:07 am, Salford1 <vectisp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> For the T, big net savings
> Repair foreman used his head(gear) to fix costly problem
> By Mac Daniel, Globe Staff | May 4, 2006
>
> Tom McHale is a hero at the MBTA, not for saving lives, but for saving
> a lot of money thanks to steak tips, electrical tape, and a 5-cent,
> fine-mesh hair cap.
>
> The Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority -- challenged by a high
> debt load, an aging train fleet, and opposition to a proposed fare
> increase -- is plagued every winter with train motors failing in snowy
> conditions. The cost to repair them is staggering, and the cost to
> replace them is even higher. The failures on the Orange and Red lines
> during recent winters were crippling service.
>
> So in late 2004, after a day rebuilding or replacing such motors on
> the Orange Line, McHale, a father of two from Reading who works as a
> repair foreman in the Wellington carhouse, was in a Boston wholesale
> butcher shop buying steak tips for a Patriots playoff game when he was
> required to put on a ''bouffant style" protective cap to cover his
> hair.
>
> McHale, 42, said he then noticed that a nearby butcher's head was
> about the same size as the air intake cover on the failing Orange Line
> motors.
>
> He bought his steak tips and pocketed the hair cap. A few days later,
> he taped it to an Orange Line motor. Eureka! The air got in, but the
> snow stayed out. ''It fit perfect," McHale said.
>
> The polypropylene hair caps melted in extreme conditions, but never
> caught fire. They could be put on the entire 102-car fleet in short
> order. And best of all, a box of 1,000 cost $50. A bargain.
>
> ''That's what we used to pay for them," Louis Downs, maintenance
> supervisor for the Orange Line, said yesterday. ''Once word about this
> gets out, we'll probably have to pay more."
>
> Last winter, the T experienced no traction motor failures because of
> snow, thanks in part to McHale's hair cap idea. Though conditions this
> past season were mild, T officials estimate his solution will save the
> agency $126,000 in repairs in an average year.
>
> Snow has historically messed with train engines, especially on the
> Orange Line, which runs 8.8 of its 11 miles outside and a large
> portion of that in the walled corridors south of downtown.
>
> Light snow is often sucked up by a moving train, goes under the
> chassis, and is drawn into a caged air intake designed to cool the
> motors. Over time, with stops and starts, the snow melts and refreezes
> into 3-inch-thick squares that block the intake, causing the motors to
> overheat or catastrophically fail.
>
> ''You don't run your blender in the bathtub," McHale said. ''Snow and
> these motors just don't mix."
>
> Historically, T officials said, a major snowstorm results in failure
> of an average 14 of the 480 motors running the Orange Line's 102 cars.
> Rebuilding such a motor costs about $9,000. Replacing it costs between
> $35,000 and $50,000.
>
> On the Red Line, where service was crippled by failing motors during
> the winter of 2004-2005, the motors are configured differently and
> can't benefit from the Orange Line's unique solution, T officials
> said.
>
> Prior to the hair cap, T maintenance tried an assortment of materials
> to block the snow, from the stuff used in Tyvek protective clothing to
> burlap.
>
> Nothing has worked as well as the hair cap, which is now part of the
> T's standard operating procedure on the Orange Line.
>
> Prior to snowstorms, ''All traction motor intake filter cage
> assemblies shall be wrapped with a protective hair net (HELCO part
> number KC 36809), taking care to fully cover any possible opening
> where the ingestion of snow is possible," Orange Line operating
> documents read. ''The hair net shall then be secured using standard
> 1/2-inch electrical tape. . . . Protective hair nets shall be removed
> in the spring to afford maximum cooling of motors" in summer.
>
> McHale is being promoted and will be honored by the T today for his
> idea, complete with a demonstration using a disassembled Orange Line
> traction motor.
>
> Mac Daniel can be reached at mdan...@globe.com.
I think it only shows how poorly designed the motor system was in the
first place. They always should have had an intake design that
prevented snow from entering. How much money did they waste over the
years before somebody recognized it? Give the guy credit, but take a
greater amount from those dummies who made and watched the system for
years.
==============================================================================
TOPIC: Miss Manners on credit cards and protective clerks/managers
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/d050e2dac2223a44?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 8 2008 5:25 am
From: "h"
"Evelyn Leeper" <eleeper@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:493c7e6a$0$4879$607ed4bc@cv.net...
>h wrote:
>> "Steve Daniels" <sdaniels@gorge.net> wrote in message
>> news:3ffoj4ts8m623kqv55ll784r0mg5fpsb3f@4ax.com...
>>> On Fri, 5 Dec 2008 15:15:00 -0800, against all advice, something
>>> compelled Coffee's For Closers <USENET2008@THE-DOMAIN-IN.SIG>, to
>>> say:
>>>
>>>> The logic is to make a credit card transaction as easy as
>>>> possible. So that you won't be discouraged by the small extra
>>>> hassle of ID. The Visa and MasterCard associations want card
>>>> usage to be as easy as cash, or even easier.
>>>
>>> You know on the back, on that little strip where you're supposed
>>> to put your signature? Mine says, "Ask for picture ID."
>>>
>>>
>> And you know what? That's not legal. Not signing the card is a violation
>> of the card agreement, and merchants are not supposed to accept unsigned
>> cards. If they do the charge can be easily contested. The post office,
>> for example, will not take your credit card if it is not signed. Neither
>> will many businesses, mine included. Also, at least here in NY, it is a
>> violation of the merchant agreement to ask a customer for ID if they are
>> using a credit card. So...if you don't sign your card I can't accept it,
>> and I'm not allowed to ask for the picture ID you'd rather give. How
>> often are you able to use the card for anything expect swipe purchases?
>
> Mine says that, and I've never had a problem--including at the post
> office. They ask for picture ID, I show it, and that's that.
>
Don't know where you live, but that doesn't fly in NY. And again, that is a
violation of your card agreement and any merchant who accepts your card is
violating their card acceptance agreement. Over the 17 years I had to do
daily PO runs for my business(prior to carrier pickup) I've seen quite a few
people at the post office who whose credit cards were refused. There's a
gigantic sign hanging from the ceiling listing the acceptable forms of
payment, and the first option says, "Credit Cards - unsigned cards will be
refused". And they are, always.
My favorite idiot is the one who leaves the signature panel blank because,
"If someone steals it, they could copy my signature." No, moron, if someone
steals it they can just sign the back themselves and use it with no
problems. The bottom line is just sign the damn thing and comply with the
rules. You're not libel for any fraudulent charges, so get over it. I've had
my card skimmed (info copied when scanned) three times and never had to pay
any of the thousands of fraudulent charges. The skimming has always happened
at full serve gas stations in NJ (twice) and PA (once) when the guy at the
pump swipes the card then has to take it into the office to get a receipt.
They copy it, wait a few weeks, then use it a lot in 24 hours until I catch
it. Your idea of "ask for ID" certainly wouldn't stop that from happening.
== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 8 2008 8:20 am
From: tweeny90655@mypacks.net
On Dec 7, 4:20 pm, Steve Daniels <sdani...@gorge.net> wrote:
>
> You know on the back, on that little strip where you're supposed
> to put your signature? Mine says, "Ask for picture ID."
Yeah, but half the time the card doesn't enter the clerk's hands. You
swipe, punch in a zip, and back in the wallet it goes. Now what,
coach?
==============================================================================
TOPIC: Earn Extra Bucks Online During your Free Time
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/7cc3b8be340b50a5?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 8 2008 5:25 am
From: rextor23@rocketmail.com
Hi, if you like to earn extra money online, check out this website to
see what are the best ways to do so without spending any money. You
may be interested to join a few of them. Those are all free to join.
http://urlhawk.com/onlinemoney
These programs are unlikely to make you rich but it is a great
opportunity to earn extra money from home.
Thanks for reading.
==============================================================================
TOPIC: Is keeping a car 50 years frugal?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/973c7ade053ebb0f?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 8 2008 7:23 am
From: MSfortune@mcpmail.com
'nam vet. wrote:
> It's going on 47 next year. should I keep it? What if I buy a ford and
> they go under. warrantee, parts service?
> --
> When the Power of Love,replaces the Love of Power.
> that's Evolution.
You can keep a car as long as you want. I kept my last Chevy for 24
years and drove it to the junk yard. There is nothing on a vehicle
that can't be replaced with something. The key is how much will it
cost and who will do the work. It somewhat depends on government
regulations too if you need to pass certifications. I have frequently
dreamed of having free rein of an auto junk yard. I could redefine the
word hybrid in terms that would make congress cringe.
== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 8 2008 8:35 am
From: "'nam vet."
In article <georgewkspam-FF6CDA.15425507122008@news.humboldt1.com>,
"'nam vet." <georgewkspam@humboldt1.com> wrote:
> It's going on 47 next year. should I keep it? What if I buy a ford and
> they go under. warrantee, parts service?
Well, it is a VW and parts are cheap and it is easy to fix . I have road
service . And I only drive it on nice days as the top is getting kinda
ragged. A cabriolet. Only 30 smiles per gallon.
I figure that it is increasing in value as it ages. Rust is under
control and I have up-dated it with many safety features. And I think
like a motorcyclist. i.e. assuming the other drivers don't see me.
Squeezed air horns into the front grilles.
Wish us luck !
--
When the Power of Love,replaces the Love of Power.
that's Evolution.
== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 8 2008 8:42 am
From: Theev
Lou wrote:
> "'nam vet." <georgewkspam@humboldt1.com> wrote in message
> news:georgewkspam-FF6CDA.15425507122008@news.humboldt1.com...
>> It's going on 47 next year. should I keep it? What if I buy a ford and
>> they go under. warrantee, parts service?
>
> Let's see, you have a 47 year old car, and you're worried about warrantees,
> parts, and service on a new(er) car? Whatever happens, the parts and
> service situation would have to be easier than it is for that 47 year old
> car.
Not necessarily. Fewer -- LOTS fewer -- things to go wrong with the
older car, and you can fix them yourself. If you break an outside
mirror you can just screw on a new generic one (or one from a wrecking
yard). You don't have to disassemble the dashboard area (a $400 job 10
years ago).
--
Cheers,
Bev
==============================================================================
TOPIC: Tax Fraud, cancer, and the IRS
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/78b4d9d9aca35c0e?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 8 2008 7:29 am
From: MSfortune@mcpmail.com
phil scott wrote:
>
> myself, Id rather be shot than see my nation ruined by non productive
> scum, currently using tax payer money by the trillions to pay bonus's
> to their criminal cohortsrunning the fraudulent bank loan and
> derivitives schemes.
>
> Phil scott
Sir, do you request a blindfold?
==============================================================================
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "misc.consumers.frugal-living"
group.
To post to this group, visit http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to misc.consumers.frugal-living+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
To change the way you get mail from this group, visit:
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/subscribe?hl=en
To report abuse, send email explaining the problem to abuse@googlegroups.com
==============================================================================
Google Groups: http://groups.google.com/?hl=en
No comments:
Post a Comment