Frugal Living: misc.consumers.frugal-living - 25 new messages in 10 topics

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Is keeping a car 50 years frugal?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/973c7ade053ebb0f?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 7 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 8 2008 8:42 am
From: Theev

Lou wrote:
> "'nam vet." <georgewkspam@humboldt1.com> wrote in message
> news:georgewkspam-FF6CDA.15425507122008@news.humboldt1.com...
>> It's going on 47 next year. should I keep it? What if I buy a ford and
>> they go under. warrantee, parts service?
>
> Let's see, you have a 47 year old car, and you're worried about warrantees,
> parts, and service on a new(er) car? Whatever happens, the parts and
> service situation would have to be easier than it is for that 47 year old
> car.

Not necessarily. Fewer -- LOTS fewer -- things to go wrong with the
older car, and you can fix them yourself. If you break an outside
mirror you can just screw on a new generic one (or one from a wrecking
yard). You don't have to disassemble the dashboard area (a $400 job 10
years ago).

--
Cheers,
Bev

== 2 of 7 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 8 2008 8:54 am
From: The Real Bev

Daniel T. wrote:
> "h" <tmclone@searchmachine.com> wrote:
>> "Daniel T." <daniel_t@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>> "'nam vet." <georgewkspam@humboldt1.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> It's going on 47 next year. should I keep it? What if I buy a
>>>> ford and they go under. warrantee, parts service?
>>> How much does your 47 year old car cost you over the next year?
>>> Over the next 5 years? Over the next 10 years? Compare that to the
>>> cost of a new car...
>> Assuming the OP isn't trolling, I'll bet the 47 year old car was
>> built to last and might very well be worth keeping on the road until
>> it dies.
>
> What does "dies" mean in this context?

Something essential that can't be replaced breaks. Case in point: leaf
springs for a 1960 Ford station wagon. The ones in the wrecking yard
are just as rotten as the ones you have and you can't find any new ones
no matter how hard you look.

--
Cheers, Bev
==============================
All bleeding eventually stops.

== 3 of 7 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 8 2008 9:07 am
From: Vic Smith

On Mon, 08 Dec 2008 08:54:25 -0800, The Real Bev
<bashley101+M@gmail.com> wrote:

>Daniel T. wrote:
>> "h" <tmclone@searchmachine.com> wrote:
>>> "Daniel T." <daniel_t@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>> "'nam vet." <georgewkspam@humboldt1.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> It's going on 47 next year. should I keep it? What if I buy a
>>>>> ford and they go under. warrantee, parts service?
>>>> How much does your 47 year old car cost you over the next year?
>>>> Over the next 5 years? Over the next 10 years? Compare that to the
>>>> cost of a new car...
>>> Assuming the OP isn't trolling, I'll bet the 47 year old car was
>>> built to last and might very well be worth keeping on the road until
>>> it dies.
>>
>> What does "dies" mean in this context?
>
>Something essential that can't be replaced breaks. Case in point: leaf
>springs for a 1960 Ford station wagon. The ones in the wrecking yard
>are just as rotten as the ones you have and you can't find any new ones
>no matter how hard you look.

Just not looking in the right place.
You can get a leaf spring set up in many spring shops for just about
any car. Won't be as cheap as bone yard springs, but not very
expensive either. One of my kids works in such a shop, oddly enough
called Spring Align.
Frame rot is the only real killer for most cars.
But when too much cancer hits the body, it might be more frugal to
replace the car.

--Vic

== 4 of 7 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 8 2008 9:38 am
From: curly'q

Vic Smith wrote:
> On Mon, 08 Dec 2008 08:54:25 -0800, The Real Bev
> <bashley101+M@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Daniel T. wrote:
>>> "h" <tmclone@searchmachine.com> wrote:
>>>> "Daniel T." <daniel_t@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>> "'nam vet." <georgewkspam@humboldt1.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> It's going on 47 next year. should I keep it? What if I buy a
>>>>>> ford and they go under. warrantee, parts service?
>>>>> How much does your 47 year old car cost you over the next year?
>>>>> Over the next 5 years? Over the next 10 years? Compare that to the
>>>>> cost of a new car...
>>>> Assuming the OP isn't trolling, I'll bet the 47 year old car was
>>>> built to last and might very well be worth keeping on the road until
>>>> it dies.
>>> What does "dies" mean in this context?
>> Something essential that can't be replaced breaks. Case in point: leaf
>> springs for a 1960 Ford station wagon. The ones in the wrecking yard
>> are just as rotten as the ones you have and you can't find any new ones
>> no matter how hard you look.
>
> Just not looking in the right place.
> You can get a leaf spring set up in many spring shops for just about
> any car. Won't be as cheap as bone yard springs, but not very
> expensive either. One of my kids works in such a shop, oddly enough
> called Spring Align.
> Frame rot is the only real killer for most cars.
> But when too much cancer hits the body, it might be more frugal to
> replace the car.
>
> --Vic
>

I agree. Up here in the road salt belt, those late '80s early '90s
Hondas and Toyotas then run forever (probably the best generation for
both) are mostly all swiss cheese and not worth anything to me.

== 5 of 7 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 8 2008 10:53 am
From: Jeff

Don Klipstein wrote:
> In article <Xns9B6DCC19918B5TBAnoonecarescom@87.106.137.111>, Malcolm
> \"Mal\" Reynolds wrote:
>> "'nam vet." <georgewkspam@humboldt1.com> wrote in news:georgewkspam-
>> FF6CDA.15425507122008@news.humboldt1.com:
>>
>>> It's going on 47 next year. should I keep it? What if I buy a ford and
>>> they go under. warrantee, parts service?
>> You have a 47 year old car. How long have you had it? Does it work?
>
> I wonder if a 47 year old car as of 2008 even has air conditioning
> (including any that has conked out). I suspect more likely not, since I
> found presence of air conditioning in cars to be selling points and
> options for new cars about 35 years ago.

Boy, that just shows how a few extra years will change your opinion of
auto AC.

I have a friend that used to cut the AC drive belts (to save
horsepower), now he adds ACs to cars that didn't have them.

There's short term frugal and long term. But I'm not sure either one
matters here. You might drive a 10 year old or 20 year old car because
it is frugal not to buy a newer model. No one does that for a 1961
model. You drive that car because you like it!

Now, there's few cars of that era that are frugal on gas. The
collectables in particular are gas hogs.

Jeff

Who drives a 20 year old car, owns a couple of 1970 models, and is
looking for a Honda hx for a daily driver.

Jeff

>
> Keep in mind that A/C system in a car has the main good way to defog
> windows on cool/cold humid days.
>
> How much are you good for having your car being one without A/C and the
> window defogging that is done so much better when the car has a working
> A/C system?
>
> (Yes, I am aware that most cars less than 20 years old use the
> A/C system to "defrost" the front windshield and such cars that
> have a feature to "defog" the rear window do so by resistance heating.)
>
> - Don Klipstein (don@misty.com)

== 6 of 7 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 8 2008 11:28 am
From: Dennis

On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 21:03:57 -0500, "Daniel T."
<daniel_t@earthlink.net> wrote:

>I'm not so sure about that. Also remember, it is in Consumer Reports
>best interest to inflate the differences in quality between
>manufactures. If the came out with a report that said that all car makes
>were near the same in quality, no one would need their magizine anymore.

Aren't you the same guy who was railing about conspiracy theories in
another thread? Sheesh, PKB.

Dennis (evil)
--
"There is a fine line between participation and mockery" - Wally

== 7 of 7 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 8 2008 12:06 pm
From: Jeff

I agree. I've got a shop right in my neighborhood that does nothing
but make leaf springs.

Must be a lot of them around.

> Frame rot is the only real killer for most cars.
> But when too much cancer hits the body, it might be more frugal to
> replace the car.

If you love the car, you can keep it alive for a long time. If you
don't, a bad tranny or an engine rebuild or a bad fender will finish it off.

Jeff

>
> --Vic
>

==============================================================================
TOPIC: 533,000 Jobs Lost While Feds Import 140,000 Foreign Workers!
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/a1526898a9ebc1d2?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 6 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 8 2008 8:51 am
From: suds macheath

clams_casino wrote:
> suds macheath wrote:
>
>>
>> Why haven't you jumped on the gravy train, if it's such a cushy job?
>> Can't cut it?
>
>
> Never considered it when I was younger. It would be a serious
> consideration if I was entering college today.
>
> My brother switched to a teaching career when he was about forty. He
> thoroughly enjoys those 12 week summer vacations

---except for the fact you don't get paid for the "summer
vacations"....teachers are paid for 10 months....

as well as the extra
> holiday and mid winter breaks. He admits the job has its ups and downs,
> but it's primarily the administration rather than the kids that are the
> problem. Nevertheless, he has claims to have no regrets dumping the
> 40+ hr corporate job. If nothing else, his job will never be out
> source,

----If the tax base falls it will....

plus the health and retirement benefits are outstanding.

-----Really? He started at forty, he'll get full retirement at 70?

== 2 of 6 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 8 2008 8:53 am
From: suds macheath

clams_casino wrote:
> suds macheath wrote:
>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> In PA the union teachers have an ultra deluxe Blue Cross health plan
>>> that was crafted especially just for them. There is zero possibility
>>> for out of pocket expense.
>>
>>
>> ---They don't pay premiums for their families?
>>
>>
>
>
>
> Not much around here. Full family coverage was 100% covered until
> recent years, but now they are paying about 5%.

----I find that hard to believe....I have the same plan as the teachers
and my premium's around $650 month....plus deductibles for any hospital
stays...

== 3 of 6 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 8 2008 9:25 am
From: George

suds macheath wrote:
> clams_casino wrote:
>> suds macheath wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Why haven't you jumped on the gravy train, if it's such a cushy job?
>>> Can't cut it?
>>
>>
>> Never considered it when I was younger. It would be a serious
>> consideration if I was entering college today.
>>
>> My brother switched to a teaching career when he was about forty. He
>> thoroughly enjoys those 12 week summer vacations
>
> ---except for the fact you don't get paid for the "summer
> vacations"....teachers are paid for 10 months....

Sure they do. It is a salaried position and the pay is quoted at an
annual rate. They just happen to only need to actually show up for 40
weeks/year. In our states public schools they can choose to be paid
their salary/52 or salary/40 to reflect the time that they actually need
to show up. The salary/40 payment method is from older days when people
were paid with physical checks.

>
> as well as the extra
>> holiday and mid winter breaks. He admits the job has its ups and
>> downs, but it's primarily the administration rather than the kids
>> that are the problem. Nevertheless, he has claims to have no
>> regrets dumping the 40+ hr corporate job. If nothing else, his job
>> will never be out source,
>
> ----If the tax base falls it will....
>
> plus the health and retirement benefits are outstanding.
>
> -----Really? He started at forty, he'll get full retirement at 70?

== 4 of 6 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 8 2008 9:31 am
From: George

suds macheath wrote:
> George wrote:
>> clams_casino wrote:
>>> suds macheath wrote:
>>>
>>>> clams_casino wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> John Galt wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But, why would a retired engineer want to get up at 6AM and be
>>>>>> grading papers in front of the TV at night for 30K per year?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> What teacher gets $30k /yr other than perhaps newly hired, just out
>>>>> of college? Here, they are paid an AVERAGE of $60k
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----How many of those have doctorates or masters degrees, and have
>>>> been teaching for 20+ years? All of them?
>>>
>>>
>>> That's the average. Those with masters tend to be paid $75k and
>>> up. I'm not too sure many at the elementary / Jr high / High
>>> school level have doctorates.
>>>
>>> http://cspf.wordpress.com/2007/02/07/questioning-teacher-salaries-2/
>>> is a typical RI situation. Granted, teachers put in much over time,
>>> but but salary position doesn't?
>>
>> In my state that would be teachers. In my state the most powerful
>> labor union is the PSEA which represents the public school teachers.
>>
>> Most of my jobs have been salaried and I have a comparable eduction to
>> a teacher. I have a number of friends and relatives who are teachers.
>>
>> A typical teacher works six hours/day here. It is pretty unusual for
>> them to take work home since they have a 1 hour study period where
>> they can also do grading. If a new teacher works harder they are
>> quietly pulled and the side and told to cut it out and follow whatever
>> is in the workbooks. Their union contracts require that at least two
>> teachers must be present for any event be it a bake sale or sporting
>> competition. They get an additional $150 each for up to 2 hours for this.
>
>
> ----Sounds too good to be true....why aren't you on the gravy train.....

Just stating the facts which have absolutely nothing to do with the
personal choice of anyone.

>>
>>
>>
>> I, for example, typically worked an
>>> extra 8-12 hrs/ week (no overtime). Most I know in the corporate
>>> world do / did similar overtime (without additional pay).
>
> ----Sounds like you're a fool for not teaching, if teaching's such a
> well paid, cushy job....
>
>>>
>> Mr too, that isn't unusual at all. I remember one year where I worked
>> every Saturday and Sunday besides the 10 hour weekdays without
>> additional pay.
>
> ----Sounds like you're a fool for not teaching......
>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> plus very generous
>>>>
>>>>> benefits benefits with very generous holiday, sick time and
>>>>> vacation time that no engineer could ever expect to see.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---I'm sure benefits at large corporations are comparable....
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> What corporation provides 12 weeks vacation per year? Other than
>>> UAW and government employees, I'm not aware of many paying full (or
>>> even 90%) health coverage.
>>
>> In PA the union teachers have an ultra deluxe Blue Cross health plan
>> that was crafted especially just for them. There is zero possibility
>> for out of pocket expense.
>
> ---They don't pay premiums for their families?

No, all family members are covered and even better if a spouse also
happens to be a teacher they get the 1,800/month paid directly to them.

>
> This costs us over $1,800/month for each teacher.
>> And as you stated they get 12 weeks paid vacation,
>
> ---They don't get paid for the summer months, do they? It takes years to
> build up 60 vacation days....

Sure they do. Teachers are paid an *annual* salary. Their job requires
them to be at school for 40 weeks and they have 12 weeks when they don't
need to be there.

>
> all holidays and if
>> there is a hint of snow they can just hit the snooze button because a
>> snow day will be called.
>
> ----Why haven't you got on the gravy train?
> Can't cut it?

== 5 of 6 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 8 2008 9:35 am
From: George

The school boards back down here. Each year one of the boards announces
that it is contract renewal time and they would like to lower medical
insurance costs by say instituting a $5 copay. The teachers then
inconvenience everyone by striking for a few weeks and then the board
backs down.

And if a spouse happens to also be a teacher they get the $1,800/month
that is allocated for each teacher's family medical plan paid to them.

== 6 of 6 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 8 2008 9:36 am
From: Mike

On Mon, 08 Dec 2008 08:14:12 -0600, HeyBub wrote:

> Mike wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> They had no shame.
>>
>>
>> there's very little evidence that msft ever had any good programmers
>> judging by product quality which is as bad as it gets.
>
> ## People vote with their wallets. Microsoft on 92% of the world's
> desktop is a pretty compelling vote.

about as compelling as a vote on a one-candidate ballot in a dictatorship

>> sure they
>> eventually developed an os that doesn't crash every 10 minutes but that
>> was written by what, one or two programmers? how many tens of
>> $billions of monopoly profits obtained by highly predatory monopolistic
>> antitrust violating activities did it take for that to happen?
>
> ## Monopolies are, in general, good.

an unregulated monopoly is a license to print money, a considerable
amount of which is used to brainwash the ignorant masses into becoming
"useful idiots" that go around praising the corporate robber barons that
are exploiting them. another extensive use of monopoly profit is spent
on rearranging the political landscape (via campaign contributions,
lobbying, etc) such that corporate interest is favored over all other
interests (eg. labor, consumers).

> The people who rail against them
> are usually the competitors. The arch villain, Standard Oil, brought
> down the price of kerosene from $3.00/gallon to five cents. In three
> years. Of course the people who supplied whale oil for lighting were
> upset, but the ghouls no longer owned the night.

much of standard oil's monopoly profit went straight into rockefellers
pocket, which according to wiki was an inflation adjusted equivalent of
$318 BILLION which makes him second on the list of the world's worst
robber barons of all time right behind genghis khan. the thing that
worshippers of corporate robber barons don't seem to understand is that
the more money they suck out of the economy the less that is available to
the rest of us...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealthy_historical_figures_2008

> ## Microsoft has never engaged in predatory monopolistic antitrust
> practices - at least according to a few courts and thousands of lawyers
> who routinely get prospective clients that want to allege such. Heck,
> most of the software that runs on Macs was written by Microsoft!

about twenty seconds on google yielded this article from 2004:

"Microsoft (NSDQ:MSFT) has spent more than $3 billion settling antitrust
litigation over the past 18 months, and its total bill for settling
claims could exceed $4.5 billion
....
Though Microsoft has evaded a potential breakup and Windows redesign, the
company has amassed a hefty bill in settling antitrust offenses. Since
mid-2003, Microsoft has paid out just less than $3 billion to settle
claims with four entities, including AOL Time Warner ($750 million), Sun
Microsystems ($700 million) and now Novell ($536 million). Microsoft also
paid $1 billion to settle more than a dozen state class-action lawsuits
related to the main antitrust case, and its top attorney said it's
"reasonably possible" that the company might have to pay another $950
million for other class-action claims."

http://www.crn.com/software/52500275

>
>> not to mention how many decades behind the technology curve they were
>> in implementing the core of a stable system (ie. memory management),
>> twenty years at least behind what was standard in computer science, not
>> to mention the plethora of systems already using the technology. no,
>> msft's millionaires didn't come from technology, it came from
>> sales/marketing and a whole lot of antitrust violating "innovation".
>
> ## You live in an alternate universe where "best" is equated with
> technological superiority. I suggest that universality is more important
> that technological prowess. Word Perfect (or even Wordstar) may be a
> technologically better product than Word, but if everyone to whom you
> send such a document has to either ignore it or re-format it or download
> a reader, you've just increased the entropy of the computer world.

with a viciously predatory antitrust violating monopoly controlling
everything with proprietary format/standards for everything from video/
audio to documents/spreadsheets no other alternatives are a viable
option, hence no improvement, no innovation, no progress, no nothing (but
more of the same bloated overpriced monopoly crap)

>> now that's not to say that there weren't any msft millionaires that had
>> the title of "programmer", but their success is more properly
>> attributed to being in the right place at the right time (under the
>> astronomically huge waterfall of antitrust violating monopoly profits)
>
> ## Yep. Woody Allen said "90% of success is just showing up." I'd say
> that "showing up at the right place" is implied. Again, Microsoft has
> never violated U.S. antitrust laws -

the hell you say, and what do you suppose all those antitrust settlement
payments were for?

> there is no law against being a
> monopoly. There ARE laws against monopolistic practices, but Microsoft
> has never been shown to have engaged in these prohibited tactics.

"In 2000 U.S. District Judge Thomas Penfield Jackson found Microsoft
guilty of antitrust violations. He ordered the software giant to be
broken apart. Microsoft appealed the decision to the U.S. Supreme Court
but the Court refused to hear the case and sent it instead to the court
of appeals. THE APPEALS COURT UPHELD THE MICROSOFT CONVICTION."
...
On June 30, 2004, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia
UPHELD THE ENTIRE SETTLEMENT reached in November 2002 between the federal
government, states, and Microsoft."

(uppercase emphasis added)

http://law.jrank.org/pages/12388/Sherman-Antitrust-Act-Microsoft-
Settlement-Twenty-First-Century-s-First-Major-Antitrust-Settlement.html

>
>> because in the real world (outside of the fiction created within the
>> walls of msft) applications like talking paperclips & "microsoft bob"
>> just don't cut it. so the point being that all the programmers that
>> didn't happen to be working for msft could see the writing on the wall,
>> and the smart ones reacted accordingly...
>
> ## Well, yeah, Microsoft has made product mistakes that even their sales
> prowess couldn't overcome. So did Ford with the Edsel. Likewise "New
> Coke." Being large doesn't confer perfection. But you must allow that
> Microsoft generally makes fewer (marketing) mistakes than it's
> competition.
>
> FULL DISCLOSURE
> Just because I own a few thousand shares of MSFT in no way colors my
> comments or perception of the company!

==============================================================================
TOPIC: घर बैठे कमायें लाखो रुपये
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/439d75fdc53241d6?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 8 2008 9:07 am
From: madhurimaniknepal

घर बैठे कमायें लाखो रुपये
क्या आप सचमुच में इन्टरनेट पे कैसे रुपया कमाया जाता है सीखना चाहते
हैं ? तो आपको चाहिए इ-मनी बलास्टर टेक्नोलॉजी। इस टेक्नोलॉजी के द्वारा
आप २४ घंटे के अंदर इन्टरनेट पे रुपया कमाने लगते हैं। इसे सीख्ने के लिए
कृपया फी् में ज्वाइन करें
http://emoneyblastertechnology.edu.tc/join-us.html

==============================================================================
TOPIC: supreme court to determine obama presidential eligibilty
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/546a49e0512f561c?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 8 2008 9:59 am
From: Jeff

JonL wrote:
> max wrote:
>> In article <49381198.5050808@Mayday.com>, JonL <JonL@Mayday.com> wrote:
>>
>>> max wrote:
>>>> In article <4937A1C8.2000502@Mayday.com>, JonL <JonL@Mayday.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Marsha wrote:
>>>>>> Dennis wrote:
>>>>>>> I do find it interesting that the Obama camp has so far spent
>>>>>>> almost a
>>>>>>> million dollars in legal fees to avoid simply releasing a piece of
>>>>>>> paper that would put this whole issue to bed. What could their
>>>>>>> reasoning possibly be? (And don't even try to suggest some
>>>>>>> mythical "right to privacy".
>>>>>>> Recent campaigns have proven that there is no such thing in the
>>>>>>> political area.)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dennis (evil)
>>>>>> True, but you would think Hillary's camp would have fought this to
>>>>>> the bitter end a long time ago. Then again, Obama has fought to
>>>>>> keep a lot of things under wraps.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Marsha
>>>>> Just a few things under wraps:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Original, vault copy of Certificate of Live Birth in the USA -- Not
>>>>> Released
>>>>>
>>>>> a Certificate of Live Birth -- Released Proven Counterfeit
>>>>> (www.ObamaFiles.com)
>>>>>
>>>>> Obama/Dunham marriage license -- Not released
>>>>>
>>>>> Soetoro/Dunham marriage license -- Not released
>>>>>
>>>>> Soetoro adoption records -- Not released
>>>>>
>>>>> Fransiskus Assisi School application -- Released
>>>>>
>>>>> Punahou School records -- Not released
>>>>>
>>>>> Selective Service Registration -- Released Proven Counterfeit
>>>>>
>>>>> Occidental College records -- Not released
>>>>>
>>>>> Passport -- Not released
>>>>>
>>>>> Columbia College records -- Not released
>>>>>
>>>>> Columbia thesis -- Not released
>>>>>
>>>>> Harvard College records -- Not released
>>>>>
>>>>> Harvard Law Review articles -- None (maybe 1, Not Signed)
>>>>>
>>>>> Baptism certificate -- None
>>>>>
>>>>> Medical records -- Not released
>>>>>
>>>>> Illinois State Senate records -- None (Locked up to prohibit public
>>>>> view)
>>>>>
>>>>> Illinois State Senate schedule -- Lost (All other Illinois state
>>>>> senators' records are intact)
>>>>>
>>>>> Law practice client list -- Not released
>>>>>
>>>>> University of Chicago scholarly articles -- None
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ===========================n:
>>>>>
>>>>> My addition:
>>>>>
>>>>> graduated from Zbigniew Brzezinski's Manchurian Candidate school
>>>>> --- no records released
>>>> dipshit
>>>>
>>> "Insults are the arguments of those who have no arguments."
>>> ~Rousseau, Jean-Jacques, (1712-78), French philosopher and social critic
>>
>> you googled and pasted that.
>
> Which ones are untrue???

Who cares?

It's an obsession that nothing will ever come of. You probably had a
similar obsession with Clinton's dick.

And yet, you care not one whit about the crimes that have been
committed and covered up by Bush, Cheney and company.

Or, 5 trillion dollars further in debt, an unfinished neglected war
in Afghanistan that the commander on the ground says is dire, 8 years
and nearing a net job loss. Nearly a trillion dollars pumped into a
failing banking structure.

And what are you worried about? How to keep Obama out of office at
any cost.

The electorate has spoken, if the Republican party was dog food it
would be taken off the shelf.

Obama is not an idealogue like yourself. He's a deeply pragmatic
president elect who is committed to getting a collapsing government and
country working again. But you don't give a rats ass beyond beyond your
hatred of Obama. Good luck selling that to anyone who doesn't have your
blinders on.

Jeff

>
> With your lack of an Inquiring Mind, you cudda been a good journalist.
>

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 8 2008 10:21 am
From: "AllEmailDeletedImmediately"

<sgallagher@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:f8c6ac2a-1fae-4cfa-80ca-46989703e920@t11g2000yqg.googlegroups.com...
On Dec 8, 2:59 am, "AllEmailDeletedImmediately" <der...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> <sgallag...@rogers.com> wrote in message
>
> news:76db2928-59db-4684-8d0a-6d6a3d4f802f@j32g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
> On Dec 7, 7:44 pm, "Dave" <no...@nohow.not> wrote:
>
>
>
> > "JR Weiss" <jrwe...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
>
> >news:ghhodm$fdj$1@news.motzarella.org...
>
> > > "AllEmailDeletedImmediately" <der...@hotmail.com> wrote ...
>
> > >>>> OK, I found it. No. 08A407. But this suit accepts that Obama was
> > >>>> born
> > >>>> in the USA and was an American citizen at birth.
>
> > >>> And? Again, a citizen is not eligible to be President. -Dave
>
> > >> correct. american citizenship does not automatically constitutionally
> > >> qualify one to be prez
>
> > > However, an American citizen who achieved that citizenship by virtue
> > > of
> > > being born in the US IS a "natural born" citizen, and therefore meets
> > > the
> > > basic criterion!
>
> > Unless you become a citizen of another country where you can not hold
> > dual
> > citizenship.
>
> Only if that other country requires you to go to the officials of your
> original country and formally renounce citizenship according to the
> original country's laws, and then return to them with proof that you
> really did renounce your original citizenship. Otherwise, the fact
> that this other country does not allow dual citizenship would have no
> effect upon a person's US citizenship.
>
> the u.s. didn't allow dual citizenship except with israel at that time. i
> pretty sure.

At the time, the US policy was strongly against dual citizenship, but
it was not outrightly prohibited. There were also several ways that a
person could lose US citizenship back then, ways that no longer
exist. Many of those ways of losing US citizenship ended up being
removed due to the Supreme Court decision of Afroyim v. Rusk in 1967.
Because this decision was based on a Constitution interpretation,
people who were told, prior to that decision, that they had lost their
citizenship were able to have their cases re-adjudicated and their
citizenship restored, if they wished. Others who may have performed
an action that would have resulted in loss of their US citizenship,
but who were never formally told that their
citizenship was revoked, don't have to worry about it ever having been
lost. By the way, there was no special allowance for dual citizenship
with Israel. It's just that Israeli nationality law was written in
such a way that it did not invoke any of the provisions that caused
loss of US citizenship. For example, at the time, swearing alleiance
to a foreign country or applying for that country's citizenship would
normally cause loss of US citizenship. Israeli law conferred Israeli
citizenship upon any Jew who immigrated there under Israel's law of
return, without that person having to actually apply for the Israeli
citizenship or to swear any oath of allegiance to Israel. Since,
other countries did not do this, it meant that for many years, Israeli
citizenship was the only one that could be acquired by a US citizen
(after birth), that would not cause loss of US citizenship because
acquisition of Israeli citizenship did not trigger any of the ways
that caused loss of US citizenship.

But, a person who was born with both US and other citizenships, was
allowed to keep both citizenships as long as he didn't violate any of
the parts of law that would cause loss of US citizenship.

---------

thanks for all the hard work. this is all part of what i hope the sc will
choose
to wade thru. bo should demand it, because w/o it there will always be a
whiff.
if the sc finds in his favor, as in actually reviewing it and not dismissing
it, then
that's that. the highest court has annointed him and anyone w/suspicions
otherwise
will have to just accept that decision.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 8 2008 11:02 am
From: "JR Weiss"

"AllEmailDeletedImmediately" <derjda@hotmail.com> wrote...
>
> the u.s. didn't allow dual citizenship except with israel at that time. i
> pretty sure.

Also Switzerland.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Miss Manners on credit cards and protective clerks/managers
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/d050e2dac2223a44?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 8 2008 10:22 am
From: Steve Daniels

On Mon, 8 Dec 2008 08:20:22 -0800 (PST), against all advice,
something compelled tweeny90655@mypacks.net, to say:

> On Dec 7, 4:20 pm, Steve Daniels <sdani...@gorge.net> wrote:
>
> >
> > You know on the back, on that little strip where you're supposed
> > to put your signature? Mine says, "Ask for picture ID."
>
>
> Yeah, but half the time the card doesn't enter the clerk's hands. You
> swipe, punch in a zip, and back in the wallet it goes. Now what,
> coach?

I didn't say it was a flawless system, and was rather commenting
upon the presumed rudeness of a shopping clerk asking for picture
ID before running the card. I was pointing out that not only did
I not find this behavior rude, I in fact encourage it.

Perhaps I was too subtle. Please accept my apologies.

Real men don't text.

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 8 2008 10:24 am
From: Steve Daniels

On Sun, 7 Dec 2008 20:33:28 -0500, against all advice, something
compelled "h" <tmclone@searchmachine.com>, to say:

>
> "Steve Daniels" <sdaniels@gorge.net> wrote in message
> news:3ffoj4ts8m623kqv55ll784r0mg5fpsb3f@4ax.com...
> > On Fri, 5 Dec 2008 15:15:00 -0800, against all advice, something
> > compelled Coffee's For Closers <USENET2008@THE-DOMAIN-IN.SIG>, to
> > say:
> >
> >> The logic is to make a credit card transaction as easy as
> >> possible. So that you won't be discouraged by the small extra
> >> hassle of ID. The Visa and MasterCard associations want card
> >> usage to be as easy as cash, or even easier.
> >
> >
> > You know on the back, on that little strip where you're supposed
> > to put your signature? Mine says, "Ask for picture ID."
> >
> >
> And you know what? That's not legal.

You'll never take me alive, copper.

> So...if you don't sign your card I can't accept it, and I'm not
> allowed to ask for the picture ID you'd rather give. How often are you able
> to use the card for anything expect swipe purchases?
>

Every time I want to. It has never been refused. Not once in
ten years.

Real men don't text.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 8 2008 10:27 am
From: Steve Daniels

On Mon, 8 Dec 2008 08:25:35 -0500, against all advice, something
compelled "h" <tmclone@searchmachine.com>, to say:

>
> "Evelyn Leeper" <eleeper@optonline.net> wrote in message
> news:493c7e6a$0$4879$607ed4bc@cv.net...
> >h wrote:
> >> "Steve Daniels" <sdaniels@gorge.net> wrote in message
> >> news:3ffoj4ts8m623kqv55ll784r0mg5fpsb3f@4ax.com...
> >>> On Fri, 5 Dec 2008 15:15:00 -0800, against all advice, something
> >>> compelled Coffee's For Closers <USENET2008@THE-DOMAIN-IN.SIG>, to
> >>> say:
> >>>
> >>>> The logic is to make a credit card transaction as easy as
> >>>> possible. So that you won't be discouraged by the small extra
> >>>> hassle of ID. The Visa and MasterCard associations want card
> >>>> usage to be as easy as cash, or even easier.
> >>>
> >>> You know on the back, on that little strip where you're supposed
> >>> to put your signature? Mine says, "Ask for picture ID."
> >>>
> >>>
> >> And you know what? That's not legal. Not signing the card is a violation
> >> of the card agreement, and merchants are not supposed to accept unsigned
> >> cards. If they do the charge can be easily contested. The post office,
> >> for example, will not take your credit card if it is not signed. Neither
> >> will many businesses, mine included. Also, at least here in NY, it is a
> >> violation of the merchant agreement to ask a customer for ID if they are
> >> using a credit card. So...if you don't sign your card I can't accept it,
> >> and I'm not allowed to ask for the picture ID you'd rather give. How
> >> often are you able to use the card for anything expect swipe purchases?
> >
> > Mine says that, and I've never had a problem--including at the post
> > office. They ask for picture ID, I show it, and that's that.
> >
> Don't know where you live, but that doesn't fly in NY.

It did in New York City in October of '01. I don't think you can
get any more New York than that.

Real men don't text.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: New 650mAh Rechargeable Replacement CASIO NP-20 Digital Camera Battery
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/ae7b4d7727629d99?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 8 2008 10:26 am
From: "www.Queensbridge.us"

On Dec 2, 2:34 am, Zanasil <batbusin...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Overview:
> This casio np-20 battery is made specifically for canon digital camera
> and to meet or exceed the original manufacturer specifications. Spare
> casio rechargeable lithium ion np-20 battery pack suitable for CASIO
> EX-S100, EX-S600GD, EXILIM EX-Z60 digital cameras. 3.7 volt 650mAh
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> can recharge it at any point without having to discharge it first.
> With a fully charged battery pack np-20, you will never miss the
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>
> specifications:
> Brand: CASIO
> Type: li-ion
> Volt: 3.7V
> Capacity: 650mAh
> Length: 50.90x32.80x4.50mm
> Weight: 18.00g
> Color: black
>
> This Casio NP-20 Digital Camera Battery Replaces the Following Battery
> Parts:
>
> CASIO NP-20
> CASIO NP-20DBA
>
> This Casio NP-20 Digital Camera Battery Fits in the Following Models:
>
> CASIO EX-S100 CASIO EX-S500EO CASIO EX-S500GY CASIO EX-S500WE CASIO EX-
> S600EO CASIO EX-S600GD CASIO EXILIM EX-M1 CASIO EXILIM EX-M2 CASIO
> EXILIM EX-M20 CASIO EXILIM EX-M20U CASIO EXILIM EX-S1 CASIO EXILIM EX-
> S100 CASIO Exilim EX-S100WE CASIO EXILIM EX-S1PM CASIO EXILIM EX-S2
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> EXILIM EX-S3 CASIO Exilim EX-S500 CASIO EXILIM EX-Z3 CASIO EXILIM EX-
> Z4 CASIO EXILIM EX-Z4U CASIO EXILIM EX-Z60
>
> visit for info about casio np-20:http://www.power-batteries.net/digital-camera/casio/np-20.html
>
> http://www.laptop-battery-inc.co.uk/digital-camera-batteries/casio-np...

A few month ago I bought one for $5.99 from
http://store.ibiao.com/retail/catalog/index.php
and am very happy.
It fit better then one I had bought from someone else previously

==============================================================================
TOPIC: professional AAAAA+++ replica watches suppliers
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/a38e34db229bf082?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 8 2008 10:34 am
From: replicawatches2009@yahoo.cn

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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Tax Fraud, cancer, and the IRS
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/78b4d9d9aca35c0e?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 8 2008 10:43 am
From: phil scott

On Dec 8, 7:29 am, MSfort...@mcpmail.com wrote:
> phil scott wrote:
>
> > myself, Id rather be shot than see my nation ruined by non productive
> > scum, currently using tax payer money by the trillions to pay bonus's
> > to their criminal cohortsrunning the fraudulent bank loan and
> > derivitives schemes.
>
> > Phil scott
>
> Sir, do you request a blindfold?

It is understandable that men with families seek to stay out of
trouble, not agravate
those in power ..... in order to give their famiies a chance at some
food and shelter...thats been
the history of men in these regards... all such men and nations, and
thier families die in utter degradation, all thougout history.... some
dressed better than others, a little fatter.

thats the only difference.

a man can live, and die, limitlessly above that level if he has the
mind... some of us planned it that way...

thats been absolutely wonderful.. not cowering or any of that...such
frees the mind, sinues and spirit to much greater insight.
some of us live for that..

we dont value the comfort of cowering in fear, we are not in the least
afraid to die, or to live for that matter...
in fact we look forward to each of those second by second... as an
opportunity.. yet another frontier, and as a gift left behind.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Folks, this is a real depression, protect your assets
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/cb1cc803cf7130ab?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 8 2008 10:55 am
From: EskWIRED@spamblock.panix.com

In misc.survivalism Dave <noway1@noway2.not> wrote:

> > > Well let's hope not. But nobody with a brain imagines that higher taxes
> and
> > > unskilled workers building roads and bridges is going to increase
> > > non-government employment. -Dave
> >
> > What if those roads and bridges make it cheaper to get goods to market
> > and people into their factories and office parks?

> Great. When unemployment goes over 50%, who is going to need roads and
> bridges to get to boarded-up factories and office parks?

You assume facts not in evidence. If indeed, unemployment goes over 50%,
there will be huge problems. If that is your only response, then you are
not really worth the time it takes to read your posts.

> >
> > Why wouldn't that increase efficiency?

> I guess it would make it easier to drive to the unemployment office to pick
> up your check maybe.

Your response seems to be the same: Hiring people to build infrastructure
will not lessen unemployment. Somehow, that makes sense to you.

> > What if the rail systems were
> > modernized?

> A rail system is a vacuum which sucks up all the commuters' money to
> subsidize cheap tickets for the very few people who want to use it.

I was thinking of rail for transport of goods.

> > What if people could drive 5 miles to a depot and then ride
> > in comfort to a central location?

> The people would do exactly what they do now...they'd drive to work. Even
> $5/gallon gas won't stop people from driving to work...what makes you think
> you can build a rail system that people will actually want to ride? Because
> virtually nobody wants to ride it now.

If you look at reality, the Bosotn MBTA has had record ridership since gas
prices soared. The increase has abated, but has not gone down to
pre-increase levels.

> >
> > Imagine if every business were in locations beset by traffic jams,
> > compared with easy direct access for workers and egress for finished
> > goods?

> WHAT businesses? WHAT finished goods? If you haven't noticed, the economy
> is tanking.

If you haven't noticed, the vast majority of busiesses have stayed in
business.

Are you a fool? Do you intentionally ignore reality? Do you think
constant hyperbole impresses thinking people?

> >
> > How can wise infrastructure investments fail to help foster business
> > development?

> There is nothing "wrong" with improving infrastructure. But that, by
> itself, won't increase employment.

By itself? Why do you conceive things in a vacuum?

--
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so
certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.
-- Bertrand Russel

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Financial Services Inter/Nationalization, effective as of 08.08.08 (www.
grishenkoff.com/Finance.html)
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/fe2bd7bda3dfe136?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 8 2008 11:52 am
From: Prime Minister of the Kingdom of God Serge Grishenkoff

Financial Services Inter/Nationalization, effective as of 08.08.08
(www.grishenkoff.com/Finance.html)

==============================================================================

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Frugal Living

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Monday, December 8, 2008

misc.consumers.frugal-living - 25 new messages in 10 topics - digest

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