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Today's topics:
* Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater - 7 messages, 5
authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/e565eaf98e0e70b6?hl=en
* Frugal Way to Avoid Scaling Ladder to Clean Gutters - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/a4458969feb6a66c?hl=en
* Dollar Tree, Victor NY, worst customer service ever - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/afd0336a0edfead1?hl=en
* Scott Fiore has a question about traveling to Mexico for dental care - 1
messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/bf0f93dd8d39e1a2?hl=en
* china wholesale cheap nike shox energia r2 r3 shoes adidas gucci puma
trainers - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/74009ae0b7d2df9c?hl=en
* www.shopbb.com from china Wholesale Footwear, Apparel,Bag,NFL Jersey,,mobile
phones,shop.Best Service,Best Pruce,Best Items - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/9bea5814f23282ac?hl=en
==============================================================================
TOPIC: Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/e565eaf98e0e70b6?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 7 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 12 2008 1:02 pm
From: "Edwin Pawlowski"
<trader4@optonline.net> wrote in message news:6fc777ee-3fad-467f-b11c-
>
>
> > The installation fee includes a bunch of possibly mandatory extras.
> > - Mandatory Installation Fee $300
> > - Mandatory Disposal Fee $10
> > - Mandatory Plumbing Permit $77
> > - Mandatory Flex Pipe Replacement $46
> > - Mandatory Sales Tax on the water heater ~8.75%
> > - Possible Earthquake Straps $68
> > - Possible pipe retrofit fees ~100
> > - Possible trip charge of $35 to $80 if any service is refused
> What on that list is so excessive or wouldn't incur a similar charge
> from a local plumber? They all seem within reason, depending of
> course on the area.
The total is in the $680 range for most options. Start with he basic $300
charge. Double what a local guy may charge. Permits can very , but probably
closer to $25 if you actually get one. I'd not get one. What about that $80
trip charge? Sears will hose you no matter what. Last place I'd go.
== 2 of 7 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 12 2008 1:42 pm
From: trader4@optonline.net
On Feb 12, 4:02 pm, "Edwin Pawlowski" <e...@snet.net> wrote:
> <trad...@optonline.net> wrote in message news:6fc777ee-3fad-467f-b11c-
>
> > > The installation fee includes a bunch of possibly mandatory extras.
> > > - Mandatory Installation Fee $300
> > > - Mandatory Disposal Fee $10
> > > - Mandatory Plumbing Permit $77
> > > - Mandatory Flex Pipe Replacement $46
> > > - Mandatory Sales Tax on the water heater ~8.75%
> > > - Possible Earthquake Straps $68
> > > - Possible pipe retrofit fees ~100
> > > - Possible trip charge of $35 to $80 if any service is refused
> > What on that list is so excessive or wouldn't incur a similar charge
> > from a local plumber? They all seem within reason, depending of
> > course on the area.
>
> The total is in the $680 range for most options.
Install 300
Disposal 10
Permit 77
Flex Pipe 46
That's $433 plus tax for a straightforward typical job. You may be
able to get it done for less, but it's not an outrageous price either.
Start with he basic $300
> charge. Double what a local guy may charge.
$300 is a typical price here in NJ.
Permits can very , but probably
> closer to $25 if you actually get one. I'd not get one.
Any decent licensed plumber is going to get a permit, if one is
required. It's not a customer option, either you need one or you
don't. Now $77 may be a bit high, but with the way all kinds of fees
and permit charges have been jacked up here and in many other parts of
the country, it wouldn't surprise me to find that it could cost that
much. How about the plumber's time in going and getting it?
What about that $80
> trip charge? Sears will hose you no matter what. Last place I'd go.
What $80 trip charge? That was IF SERVICE IS REFUSED. Meaning they
make a wasted trip and are locked out, etc.
== 3 of 7 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 12 2008 3:51 pm
From: "hallerb@aol.com"
On Feb 12, 4:42�pm, trad...@optonline.net wrote:
> On Feb 12, 4:02�pm, "Edwin Pawlowski" <e...@snet.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > <trad...@optonline.net> wrote in message news:6fc777ee-3fad-467f-b11c-
>
> > > > The installation fee includes a bunch of possibly mandatory extras.
> > > > - Mandatory Installation Fee $300
> > > > - Mandatory Disposal Fee $10
> > > > - Mandatory Plumbing Permit $77
> > > > - Mandatory Flex Pipe Replacement $46
> > > > - Mandatory Sales Tax on the water heater ~8.75%
> > > > - Possible Earthquake Straps $68
> > > > - Possible pipe retrofit fees ~100
> > > > - Possible trip charge of $35 to $80 if any service is refused
> > > What on that list is so excessive or wouldn't incur a similar charge
> > > from a local plumber? � �They all seem within reason, depending of
> > > course on the area.
>
> > The total is in the $680 range for most options.
>
> Install � 300
> Disposal �10
> Permit � 77
> Flex Pipe �46
>
> That's $433 plus tax for a straightforward typical job. �You may be
> able to get it done for less, but it's not an outrageous price either.
>
> �Start with he basic $300
>
> > charge. Double what a local guy may charge.
>
> $300 is a typical price here in NJ.
>
> �Permits can very , but probably
>
> > closer to $25 if you actually get one. �I'd not get one.
>
> Any decent licensed plumber is going to get a permit, if one is
> required. �It's not a customer option, either you need one or you
> don't. � Now $77 may be a bit high, but with the way all kinds of fees
> and permit charges have been jacked up here and in many other parts of
> the country, it wouldn't surprise me to find that it could cost that
> much. �How about the plumber's time in going and getting it?
>
> What about that $80
>
> > trip charge? �Sears will hose you no matter what. �Last place I'd go.
>
> What $80 trip charge? � That was IF SERVICE IS REFUSED. �Meaning they
> make a wasted trip and are locked out, etc.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
sears charges a trip charge for travel.
as a matter of fact if you get your furnance with air serviced they
charge a trip charge twice, then discount the second trip charge by
half.........
sears is a rip off that deserves to go into the dustbin of retail
history
== 4 of 7 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 12 2008 5:12 pm
From: "Lou"
<trader4@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:6fc777ee-3fad-467f-b11c-fa687539f1fc@q77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
On Feb 11, 10:53 pm, "Edwin Pawlowski" <e...@snet.net> wrote:
> "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" <donna....@sbcglobal.net> wrote
in
> message
>
>
>
> > The installation fee includes a bunch of possibly mandatory extras.
> > - Mandatory Installation Fee $300
> > - Mandatory Disposal Fee $10
> > - Mandatory Plumbing Permit $77
> > - Mandatory Flex Pipe Replacement $46
> > - Mandatory Sales Tax on the water heater ~8.75%
> > - Possible Earthquake Straps $68
> > - Possible pipe retrofit fees ~100
> > - Possible trip charge of $35 to $80 if any service is refused
>
> Do you get a choice of KY or Vaseline too?
>
> Call al local plumber and save a bundle of money. The flex pipe should be
> replaced with every installation though.
> What on that list is so excessive or wouldn't incur a similar charge
> from a local plumber? They all seem within reason, depending of
> course on the area.
It's been better than a couple of decades since I bought a new water heater,
and that one was electric, but...
the installation fee seems high - enough to double the cost of the
appliance.
sales tax on the heater? - I seem to remember that something that becomes
part of real property is sales tax exempt, if you file the proper
certificate, in NJ anyway
earthquake straps?
The one time I had to replace the water heater, I bought it from Sears - the
installed price was better than an independent plumber, the service was fast
(called in the morning, heater was in that afternoon) and the installer was
pleasant and informative. A lot can change in 20+ years, but if/when I
again need a new heater, I'll at least see what they have to say.
Also, all the back and forth about the relative cost of operating a smaller
heater compared to a larger one seems to me to be fairly easily resolved -
take a look at the energy guide label. When I pick a 30 gallon heater and a
50 gallon heater at random and compare the estimated annual operating cost,
the difference is $7.00 a year in favor of the smaller heater. Your actual
operating costs will depend on the cost of fuel in your area and your actual
usage, but while I don't advocate getting a larger heater than you need, the
annual operating cost difference doesn't seem like a reason to get something
smaller than you could use.
== 5 of 7 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 12 2008 9:08 pm
From: "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"
On Tue, 12 Feb 2008 21:02:20 GMT, Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
> Permits can very , but probably closer to $25 if you actually get one.
You must get a plumbing permit in my town:
Home Depot charges $77
Lowes charges almost $90
Sears charges $95 for that same permit.
The overall installation fee (includes all sans tax & straps) is:
$400 Home Depot 877-467-0542
$410 Lowes 877-465-6937
$433 Sears 800-877-6420
What would a typical plumber have charged for the permit and installation?
Donna
== 6 of 7 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 12 2008 10:16 pm
From: "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"
On Tue, 12 Feb 2008 20:12:51 -0500, Lou wrote:
> Also, all the back and forth about the relative cost of operating a smaller
> heater compared to a larger one seems to me to be fairly easily resolved -
> take a look at the energy guide
It turns out a lot of people were dead wrong on efficiency, including me.
According to the www.gamanet.org web site, operating a 40-gallon hot-water
heater is no more or less efficient than operating a 50-gallon hot-water
heater.
The only thing that matters for efficiency is the Energy Factor (EF) which
takes into account the tank size, insulation, and burner BTU.
Reference site: http://www.gamanet.org/gama/inforesources.nsf
So, if a 40 gallon hot-water heater has an EF of, say, 0.63 while a
50-gallon hot-water heater has an equal EF of 0.63, then the costs are
EXACTLY the same to operate the two heaters!
The math is all spelled out for us in the PDF at:
http://tinyurl.com/38eh4d
http://www.gamanet.org/gama/inforesources.nsf/vAttachmentLaunch/C2AAFB8D41D003F485256E9000607F66/$FILE/12-07-gas-rwh.pdf
Since almost all of us were dead wrong on this one, it would be nice if
someone can read that reference document and let me know if my new
conclusions that size doesn't matter has any flaws in it as I publically
state that all that matters is the EF (based on my reading ten times of
that document).
Donna
== 7 of 7 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 12 2008 10:38 pm
From: "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"
On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 06:16:38 GMT, Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator
wrote:
> The math is all spelled out for us in the PDF at:
> http://tinyurl.com/38eh4d
> http://www.gamanet.org/gama/inforesources.nsf/vAttachmentLaunch/C2AAFB8D41D003F485256E9000607F66/$FILE/12-07-gas-rwh.pdf
>
> Since almost all of us were dead wrong on this one, it would be nice if
> someone can read that reference document and check my calculations
PLEASE DOUBLECHECK THESE HOT-WATER-HEATER CALCULATIONS!
Here are the necessary calculations I believe we need to make in order to
compare two gas-fired water heaters. All calculations are courtesy of the
referenced PDF and charts at www.gamanet.org except the energy costs which
are courtesy of PG&E at http://www.pge.com/tariffs/pdf/G-1.pdf
In reality, these calculations would need to be done for at least a
half-dozen different water heaters (two each from Lowes, Sears, and Home
Depot, for example) in order to properly choose an available water heater
intelligently.
For simplicity, I'll use the values I plugged into the calculations for my
home; yours may differ but the mathematical approach is exactly the same.
0. Calculate minimum legal efficiency (EF)
1. Calculate maximum peak-hour requirements (FHR)
2. Calculate total installed price ($/installation)
3. Calculate yearly operating costs ($/year)
4. Calculate payback period (months/installation)
Here are my calculations.
PLEASE CHECK FOR ERRORS OR OMISSIONS AS WE ALL ARE LEARNING FROM THIS!
0. Calculate the minimum energy factor required by federal & local law:
(based on October 1990 Dept. of Energy Test Procedure for Water Heaters as
published in the May 11, 1998 Federal Register.)
For gas-fired residential water heaters, the minimum energy factor is:
Minimum EF for 40-gallon water heaters = 0.67 - 0.0019 * 40 = 0.58
Minimum EF for 50-gallon water heaters = 0.67 - 0.0019 * 50 = 0.59
Note: Southern California uses different legal minimum numbers than
northern California so be advised to modify the calculation for your area!
1. Determine your peak requirements:
20 gallons per shower x 2 showers in one hour = 40 gallons per hour
20 gallons per bath x 0 baths in one hour = 0 gallons per hour
2 gallons per shave x 0 shaves in that hour = 0 additional gallons
4 gallons per personal wash x 0 = 0 additional gallons
4 gallons per shampoo x 0 = 0 additional gallons (do it in the shower)
4 gallons per hand dishwashing x 0 dishes = 0 gallons
14 gallons per dishwasher load x 1 load = 14 additional peak gallons
5 gallons per food preparation x 1 meal = 5 additional gallons
26 gallons per wringer wash x 1 load = 26 additional peak gallons
32 gallons per automatic wash x 0 loads = 0 additional peak gallons
-----
TOTAL PEAK GALLONS = 40 + 14 + 5 + 26 = 85 gallons First Hour Rating
2. Determine price installed (inclusive):
Sears 33154 is $882 ($449 for the heater + $433 for full installation)
HD 183-717 is $747 ($349 for the heater + $398 for full installation)
3. Determine yearly operating costs given your basal energy unit, FHR, EF,
and average-use assumption.
For simplification, I'll only compare two heaters but the calculator we
create needs to cover at least a few at a time. I did this in Excel for
current northern California baseline (Schedule G-1 Residential Service)
energy rates.
CHOICE A:
Sears 33154 (marketed as Kenmore but made by AO Smith) FHR=97 EF=0.63
(41,045 btu/0.63)($1.21106/therm * 1 therm/100,000 btu) x 365 = $288/year
CHOICE B:
Home Depot 183-717 (marketed as GE but made by Rheem) FHR=80 EF=0.58
(41,045 btu/0.58)($1.21106/therm * 1 therm/100,000 btu) x 365 = $313/year
Note: Irrelevant specs would have been tank size, burner BTUs, gallons to
recovery to 90 degrees in one hour, etc. as the only figures that matter
for the calculations are the EF and the FHR since they take into account
all other design-size specifications such as those you quoted.)
4. Determine payback period:
a. Additional cost of more efficient model = $882 - $747 = $135
b. Annual savings of more efficient model = $313 - $288 = $25 per year
c. Payback period = $135 / $25 * 365 / 30 = 65 months (5.4 years)
5. Determine overall savings:
The two water heaters compared in this simplified calcuation would be
equivalent in overall costs at approximately 5 and a half years.
Considering the average water heater lasts 13 years, total savings for the
more expensive yet more economical heater would be:
(13 years - 5.4 years) * $25/year = $190 savings overall
6. Choose the correct water heater:
Based on the math everyone should perform when selecting the proper water
heater, I would buy the Sears 33154, which will save me almost 200 dollars
over its lifetime over the Home Depot 183-717 assuming current energy
prices and average usage.
Note: In reality, one needs to compare at least a half-dozen water heaters;
here I only compared two for simplicity. I knew none of these calculations
just two days ago, so, PLEASE CHECK MY NUMBERS after reading the reference
document I refer to.
If the numbers hold water, then this should go into the alt.home.repair FAQ
for everyone to benefit from all our efforts to understand how to properly
size & select a home water heater replacement (yes, I know there are
physical size issues also but this tutorial is already too long to go into
those details).
Donna
==============================================================================
TOPIC: Frugal Way to Avoid Scaling Ladder to Clean Gutters
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/a4458969feb6a66c?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 12 2008 2:22 pm
From: mwmiller314@gmail.com
On Feb 10, 10:53 pm, Logan Shaw <lshaw-use...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
> mwmiller...@gmail.com wrote:
> > In a 2 story residentail dwelling trees often leave their leaves in
> > the 2nd story gutters, bringing a lot of us back to the annual joy of
> > having to either hire someone or otherwise deal with the stuff that
> > collected into the 2nd story gutters of a house. As he-man as I'd
> > like to be about scaling ladders and stuff, I can't help but notice
> > the ground is way way to easy to hit from a drop from the 2nd story
> > level of the house. So the question remains and I've never heard a
> > full or very great answer but thought I'd bring it here for once, "Is
> > there some way to clear the gutters of a house while avoiding scaling
> > to the 2nd story?"
>
> Well, you could always get one of these things:
>
> http://www.irobot.com/sp.cfm?pageid=354
>
> I have no idea at all whether it works as well as advertised. And
> it doesn't stop you from having to get on the ladder; it just makes
> the process easier (supposedly).
>
> - Logan
wow, that product looks awesome, i hope it works as well as it shows
in the video, thanks for your response post
==============================================================================
TOPIC: Dollar Tree, Victor NY, worst customer service ever
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/afd0336a0edfead1?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 12 2008 3:22 pm
From: George Grapman
Slightly Graying Wolf wrote:
> "George Grapman" <sfgeorge@paccbell.net> wrote in message
> news:BU6sj.6859$R84.437@newssvr25.news.prodigy.net...
>> Until recently the local Safeway was was regularly understocked. On
>> several occasions I walked in and walked out. One time I got the checkout
>> and there were only two lines each with about 10 customers. I found a
>> manager and told him I had abandoned my cart. He apologized and said he
>> was advising customers to call the corporate 800 number to tell them the
>> dollar amount of the lost business. It might have worked as they are
>> rarely understaffed now.
>
> Any Safeway store where the front-end staff realize there are more than 3
> customers in line and does not react to the best of their ability to open
> more checkstands, is not following procedure. It has been this way for over
> 15 years now, it is doubtful your complaint would have changed anything.
This store was chronically understaffed until recently. The manger did
his best, sometime being a bagger.
>
> I doubt you were talking to any manager at or above the Assistant Manager
> level (probably a clerk in charge at the time). Any manager who tells you to
> call the 1 800 # because of wait times might as well have held a gun to his
> head by the barrel and asked you to pull the trigger.
This man was and still is a manager.
>
>
>
>
>
>
==============================================================================
TOPIC: Scott Fiore has a question about traveling to Mexico for dental care
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/bf0f93dd8d39e1a2?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 12 2008 6:22 pm
From: "1915PPIE@gmail.com" <1915PPIE@gmail.com>
Hi,
I live in San Diego and need 2 dental implants. I am thinking about
traveling to Mexico to have the implants done to save some money.
Does anyone have any information on how to find a reputable oral
surgeon in Mexico?
Thanks!
Scott Fiore
==============================================================================
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