Frugal Living: 24 new messages in 9 topics

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/e565eaf98e0e70b6?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 13 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 13 2008 12:04 am
From: "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 21:49:53 -0700, Rick Blaine wrote:
>>What's the easiest way to compare heat leakage between two water heaters?
>
> Look at the yellow energy label on the heaters. The annual cost to operate
> printed there can be compared on different models.

Actually, since my cost per therm is far from the average used for those
stickers, the sticker numbers are innacurate in my situation.

The sticker numbers might work to roughly compare two models in performance
but they don't work to calculate the true payback period for two models.

For that, the math I've posted today should be sufficient (assuming the
calculations hold water under scrutiny of this esteemed group).

Donna

== 2 of 13 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 13 2008 12:09 am
From: "James Sweet"

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
message news:SOvsj.404$Mh2.256@nlpi069.nbdc.sbc.com...
> On Tue, 12 Feb 2008 21:02:20 GMT, Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
>> Permits can very , but probably closer to $25 if you actually get one.
>
> You must get a plumbing permit in my town:
> Home Depot charges $77
> Lowes charges almost $90
> Sears charges $95 for that same permit.
>
> The overall installation fee (includes all sans tax & straps) is:
> $400 Home Depot 877-467-0542
> $410 Lowes 877-465-6937
> $433 Sears 800-877-6420
>
> What would a typical plumber have charged for the permit and installation?
>
> Donna

Jeez.

I'd feel like I was ripping someone off if I charged more than 100 bucks to
install a water heater, but then I'm not licensed or bonded so I don't do
this for random people, but still, last one I did took less than an hour,
it's literally 3 threaded pipes and a flue vent.

Best way to find out what a plumber charges is to call one.

== 3 of 13 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 13 2008 12:13 am
From: "James Sweet"

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
message news:9wxsj.5939$xq2.1758@newssvr21.news.prodigy.net...
> On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 21:49:53 -0700, Rick Blaine wrote:
>>>What's the easiest way to compare heat leakage between two water heaters?
>>
>> Look at the yellow energy label on the heaters. The annual cost to
>> operate
>> printed there can be compared on different models.
>
> Actually, since my cost per therm is far from the average used for those
> stickers, the sticker numbers are innacurate in my situation.
>
> The sticker numbers might work to roughly compare two models in
> performance
> but they don't work to calculate the true payback period for two models.
>
> For that, the math I've posted today should be sufficient (assuming the
> calculations hold water under scrutiny of this esteemed group).
>
> Donna

It's really easy to take the cost shown on the sticker and extrapolate the
actual cost in your area. Cost per year on sticker/cost per therm on sticker
= X/Your cost per therm, solve for X.

== 4 of 13 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 12 2008 11:17 pm
From: "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 21:20:35 -0700, Rick Blaine wrote:
>>Heating less water costs less, even with equally efficient heaters.
> Sigh. Absolutely true and totally meaningless within the context of this
> discussion.
> Hint: Direct energy cost is based on _use_ and efficiency, not _capacity_ and
> efficiency.

It turns out Rick is right.

The size of the home water heater (e.g., 40 gallons, 50 gallons, etc.) is
nearly meaningless, as is the warranty period.

The only way the tank size plays any role in the selection process for
purely physical reasons. Why? Because both the EF and the FHR already take
into account the size of the holding tank so there is no need to even
bother to look at tank size (other than for purely physical reasons).

Likewise, the warranty is always less than the average lifetime of a home
water heater, which, at 13 years, is vastly greater than the 1-year labor
warrantees all the heaters I looked at (from Sears, Lowes, and Home Depot)
provided. (Note: The 12yr/9yr/6yr/etc. warranty figures often quoted by
Sears/Lowes/HomeDepot are for PARTS! Not labor).

Thanks everyone for enlightening me ... If I didn't know better, I'd buy by
the size of the tank and the warranty but now I know they are meaningless
figures. The manufacturer WANTS you to look there but in reality, the
truthy lies in the FHV, EF, and cost/therm.

I didn't realize you guys knew so much about home water heaters ... but I'm
glad you do. In only two days, I was able to take my knowledge level, with
your help, from absolutely nothing to being able make basic lifetime cost
comparisons given any two home heaters.

Thanks!

Donna

== 5 of 13 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 12 2008 11:23 pm
From: "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"

On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 08:13:09 GMT, James Sweet wrote:
> It's really easy to take the cost shown on the sticker and extrapolate the
> actual cost in your area. Cost per year on sticker/cost per therm on sticker
> = X/Your cost per therm, solve for X.

Hi James,
You're right.

I guess what I meant was I can "solve for X" without looking at the
sticker. I can call Sears, Home Depot, or Lowes and just ask for FHR & ER
and, from that (and my known cost/therm), I can compare two heaters side by
side:

CHOICE A:
Sears 33154 (marketed as Kenmore but made by AO Smith) FHR=97 EF=0.63
(41,045 btu/0.63)($1.21106/therm * 1 therm/100,000 btu) x 365 = $288/year

CHOICE B:
Home Depot 183-717 (marketed as GE but made by Rheem) FHR=80 EF=0.58
(41,045 btu/0.58)($1.21106/therm * 1 therm/100,000 btu) x 365 = $313/year

But, you are right. If I were in the store, I could basically double the
annual operating costs shown and I'd be in the ballpark.

Thanks! We learned a lot in this thread, didn't we!

Donna

== 6 of 13 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 13 2008 12:46 am
From: "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"

On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 08:13:09 GMT, James Sweet wrote:

> It's really easy to take the cost shown on the sticker and extrapolate the
> actual cost in your area. Cost per year on sticker/cost per therm on sticker
> = X/Your cost per therm, solve for X.

Hi James,
In running your calculations, I realized the EF is NOT shown on the energy
sticker! But, it can be derived. Is my match below correct?

Given an EnergyGuide sticker that says:
"This Model Uses 240 therms/year".

I think we can calculate the ER.
Does this calculation look right to you?

240 therms/year * 1 year/41,045,000 btu * 100,000 btu/1 therm = .58

The part of the math that escapes me is why this calculation uses 1,000
times the BTUs per year than the previous calculations. Any idea?

Donna

== 7 of 13 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 13 2008 3:14 am
From: "Only Just"

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
message news:P6xsj.587$fX7.417@nlpi061.nbdc.sbc.com...
> On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 06:16:38 GMT, Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator
> wrote:
>> The math is all spelled out for us in the PDF at:
>> http://tinyurl.com/38eh4d
>> http://www.gamanet.org/gama/inforesources.nsf/vAttachmentLaunch/C2AAFB8D41D003F485256E9000607F66/$FILE/12-07-gas-rwh.pdf
>>
>> Since almost all of us were dead wrong on this one, it would be nice if
>> someone can read that reference document and check my calculations
>
> PLEASE DOUBLECHECK THESE HOT-WATER-HEATER CALCULATIONS!
>
> Here are the necessary calculations I believe we need to make in order to
> compare two gas-fired water heaters. All calculations are courtesy of the
> referenced PDF and charts at www.gamanet.org except the energy costs which
> are courtesy of PG&E at http://www.pge.com/tariffs/pdf/G-1.pdf
>
> In reality, these calculations would need to be done for at least a
> half-dozen different water heaters (two each from Lowes, Sears, and Home
> Depot, for example) in order to properly choose an available water heater
> intelligently.
>
> For simplicity, I'll use the values I plugged into the calculations for my
> home; yours may differ but the mathematical approach is exactly the same.
> 0. Calculate minimum legal efficiency (EF)
> 1. Calculate maximum peak-hour requirements (FHR)
> 2. Calculate total installed price ($/installation)
> 3. Calculate yearly operating costs ($/year)
> 4. Calculate payback period (months/installation)
>
> Here are my calculations.
> PLEASE CHECK FOR ERRORS OR OMISSIONS AS WE ALL ARE LEARNING FROM THIS!
>
> 0. Calculate the minimum energy factor required by federal & local law:
> (based on October 1990 Dept. of Energy Test Procedure for Water Heaters as
> published in the May 11, 1998 Federal Register.)
>
> For gas-fired residential water heaters, the minimum energy factor is:
> Minimum EF for 40-gallon water heaters = 0.67 - 0.0019 * 40 = 0.58
> Minimum EF for 50-gallon water heaters = 0.67 - 0.0019 * 50 = 0.59
>
> Note: Southern California uses different legal minimum numbers than
> northern California so be advised to modify the calculation for your area!
>
> 1. Determine your peak requirements:
> 20 gallons per shower x 2 showers in one hour = 40 gallons per hour
> 20 gallons per bath x 0 baths in one hour = 0 gallons per hour
> 2 gallons per shave x 0 shaves in that hour = 0 additional gallons
> 4 gallons per personal wash x 0 = 0 additional gallons
> 4 gallons per shampoo x 0 = 0 additional gallons (do it in the shower)
> 4 gallons per hand dishwashing x 0 dishes = 0 gallons
> 14 gallons per dishwasher load x 1 load = 14 additional peak gallons
> 5 gallons per food preparation x 1 meal = 5 additional gallons
> 26 gallons per wringer wash x 1 load = 26 additional peak gallons
> 32 gallons per automatic wash x 0 loads = 0 additional peak gallons
> -----
> TOTAL PEAK GALLONS = 40 + 14 + 5 + 26 = 85 gallons First Hour Rating
>
> 2. Determine price installed (inclusive):
> Sears 33154 is $882 ($449 for the heater + $433 for full installation)
> HD 183-717 is $747 ($349 for the heater + $398 for full installation)
>
> 3. Determine yearly operating costs given your basal energy unit, FHR, EF,
> and average-use assumption.
>
> For simplification, I'll only compare two heaters but the calculator we
> create needs to cover at least a few at a time. I did this in Excel for
> current northern California baseline (Schedule G-1 Residential Service)
> energy rates.
>
> CHOICE A:
> Sears 33154 (marketed as Kenmore but made by AO Smith) FHR=97 EF=0.63
> (41,045 btu/0.63)($1.21106/therm * 1 therm/100,000 btu) x 365 = $288/year
>
> CHOICE B:
> Home Depot 183-717 (marketed as GE but made by Rheem) FHR=80 EF=0.58
> (41,045 btu/0.58)($1.21106/therm * 1 therm/100,000 btu) x 365 = $313/year
>
> Note: Irrelevant specs would have been tank size, burner BTUs, gallons to
> recovery to 90 degrees in one hour, etc. as the only figures that matter
> for the calculations are the EF and the FHR since they take into account
> all other design-size specifications such as those you quoted.)
>
> 4. Determine payback period:
> a. Additional cost of more efficient model = $882 - $747 = $135
> b. Annual savings of more efficient model = $313 - $288 = $25 per year
> c. Payback period = $135 / $25 * 365 / 30 = 65 months (5.4 years)
>
> 5. Determine overall savings:
> The two water heaters compared in this simplified calcuation would be
> equivalent in overall costs at approximately 5 and a half years.
>
> Considering the average water heater lasts 13 years, total savings for the
> more expensive yet more economical heater would be:
>
> (13 years - 5.4 years) * $25/year = $190 savings overall
>
> 6. Choose the correct water heater:
>
> Based on the math everyone should perform when selecting the proper water
> heater, I would buy the Sears 33154, which will save me almost 200 dollars
> over its lifetime over the Home Depot 183-717 assuming current energy
> prices and average usage.
>
> Note: In reality, one needs to compare at least a half-dozen water
> heaters;
> here I only compared two for simplicity. I knew none of these calculations
> just two days ago, so, PLEASE CHECK MY NUMBERS after reading the reference
> document I refer to.
>
> If the numbers hold water, then this should go into the alt.home.repair
> FAQ
> for everyone to benefit from all our efforts to understand how to properly
> size & select a home water heater replacement (yes, I know there are
> physical size issues also but this tutorial is already too long to go into
> those details).
>
> Donna

This is all very good but can you trust the figures given by the
manufacturers as these are often derived by engineer calculations and
marketing guru's and are manipulated to suit their agenda.
an example of this is how many people ever get the rated fuel consumption as
stated by any vehicle manufacturers, also appliance manufactures have
devised ways of confusing the figures to get a better rating that it
actually uses. The best way to purchase the water system is to get one that
suits your requirements as in size and water capacity.
Justy.

== 8 of 13 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 13 2008 5:34 am
From: "hallerb@aol.com"

On Feb 13, 6:14�am, "Only Just" <ifixit2@hotmail(dot)com> wrote:
> "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" <donna....@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
> messagenews:P6xsj.587$fX7.417@nlpi061.nbdc.sbc.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 06:16:38 GMT, Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator
> > wrote:
> >> The math is all spelled out for us in the PDF at:
> >>http://tinyurl.com/38eh4d
> >>http://www.gamanet.org/gama/inforesources.nsf/vAttachmentLaunch/C2AAF...
>
> >> Since almost all of us were dead wrong on this one, it would be nice if
> >> someone can read that reference document and check my calculations
>
> > PLEASE DOUBLECHECK THESE HOT-WATER-HEATER CALCULATIONS!
>
> > Here are the necessary calculations I believe we need to make in order to
> > compare two gas-fired water heaters. All calculations are courtesy of the
> > referenced PDF and charts atwww.gamanet.orgexcept the energy costs which
> > are courtesy of PG&E athttp://www.pge.com/tariffs/pdf/G-1.pdf
>
> > In reality, these calculations would need to be done for at least a
> > half-dozen different water heaters (two each from Lowes, Sears, and Home
> > Depot, for example) in order to properly choose an available water heater
> > intelligently.
>
> > For simplicity, I'll use the values I plugged into the calculations for my
> > home; yours may differ but the mathematical approach is exactly the same.
> > 0. Calculate minimum legal efficiency (EF)
> > 1. Calculate maximum peak-hour requirements (FHR)
> > 2. Calculate total installed price ($/installation)
> > 3. Calculate yearly operating costs ($/year)
> > 4. Calculate payback period (months/installation)
>
> > Here are my calculations.
> > PLEASE CHECK FOR ERRORS OR OMISSIONS AS WE ALL ARE LEARNING FROM THIS!
>
> > 0. Calculate the minimum energy factor required by federal & local law:
> > (based on October 1990 Dept. of Energy Test Procedure for Water Heaters as
> > published in the May 11, 1998 Federal Register.)
>
> > For gas-fired residential water heaters, the minimum energy factor is:
> > Minimum EF for 40-gallon water heaters = 0.67 - 0.0019 * 40 = 0.58
> > Minimum EF for 50-gallon water heaters = 0.67 - 0.0019 * 50 = 0.59
>
> > Note: Southern California uses different legal minimum numbers than
> > northern California so be advised to modify the calculation for your area!
>
> > 1. Determine your peak requirements:
> > 20 gallons per shower x 2 showers in one hour = 40 gallons per hour
> > 20 gallons per bath x 0 baths in one hour = 0 gallons per hour
> > 2 gallons per shave x 0 shaves in that hour = 0 additional gallons
> > 4 gallons per personal wash x 0 = 0 additional gallons
> > 4 gallons per shampoo x 0 = 0 additional gallons (do it in the shower)
> > 4 gallons per hand dishwashing x 0 dishes = 0 gallons
> > 14 gallons per dishwasher load x 1 load = 14 additional peak gallons
> > 5 gallons per food preparation x 1 meal = 5 additional gallons
> > 26 gallons per wringer wash x 1 load = 26 additional peak gallons
> > 32 gallons per automatic wash x 0 loads = 0 additional peak gallons
> > -----
> > TOTAL PEAK GALLONS = 40 + 14 + 5 + 26 = 85 gallons First Hour Rating
>
> > 2. Determine price installed (inclusive):
> > Sears 33154 is $882 ($449 for the heater + $433 for full installation)
> > HD 183-717 is $747 ($349 for the heater + $398 for full installation)
>
> > 3. Determine yearly operating costs given your basal energy unit, FHR, EF,
> > and average-use assumption.
>
> > For simplification, I'll only compare two heaters but the calculator we
> > create needs to cover at least a few at a time. I did this in Excel for
> > current northern California baseline (Schedule G-1 Residential Service)
> > energy rates.
>
> > CHOICE A:
> > Sears 33154 (marketed as Kenmore but made by AO Smith) FHR=97 EF=0.63
> > (41,045 btu/0.63)($1.21106/therm * 1 therm/100,000 btu) x 365 = $288/year
>
> > CHOICE B:
> > Home Depot 183-717 (marketed as GE but made by Rheem) FHR=80 EF=0.58
> > (41,045 btu/0.58)($1.21106/therm * 1 therm/100,000 btu) x 365 = $313/year
>
> > Note: Irrelevant specs would have been tank size, burner BTUs, gallons to
> > recovery to 90 degrees in one hour, etc. as the only figures that matter
> > for the calculations are the EF and the FHR since they take into account
> > all other design-size specifications such as those you quoted.)
>
> > 4. Determine payback period:
> > a. Additional cost of more efficient model = $882 - $747 = $135
> > b. Annual savings of more efficient model = $313 - $288 = $25 per year
> > c. Payback period = $135 / $25 * 365 / 30 = �65 months (5.4 years)
>
> > 5. Determine overall savings:
> > The two water heaters compared in this simplified calcuation would be
> > equivalent in overall costs at approximately 5 and a half years.
>
> > Considering the average water heater lasts 13 years, total savings for the
> > more expensive yet more economical heater would be:
>
> > (13 years - 5.4 years) * $25/year = $190 savings overall
>
> > 6. Choose the correct water heater:
>
> > Based on the math everyone should perform when selecting the proper water
> > heater, I would buy the Sears 33154, which will save me almost 200 dollars
> > over its lifetime over the Home Depot 183-717 assuming current energy
> > prices and average usage.
>
> > Note: In reality, one needs to compare at least a half-dozen water
> > heaters;
> > here I only compared two for simplicity. I knew none of these calculations
> > just two days ago, so, PLEASE CHECK MY NUMBERS after reading the reference
> > document I refer to.
>
> > If the numbers hold water, then this should go into the alt.home.repair
> > FAQ
> > for everyone to benefit from all our efforts to understand how to properly
> > size & select a home water heater replacement (yes, I know there are
> > physical size issues also but this tutorial is already too long to go into
> > those details).
>
> > Donna
>
> This is all very good but can you trust the figures given by the
> manufacturers as these are often derived by engineer calculations and
> marketing guru's and are manipulated to suit their agenda.
> an example of this is how many people ever get the rated fuel consumption as
> stated by any vehicle manufacturers, also appliance manufactures have
> devised ways of confusing the figures to get a better rating that it
> actually uses. The best way to purchase the water system is to get one that
> suits your requirements as in size and water capacity.
> Justy.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

bottom line provided you buy a large enough heater the other
differences are minor,

operating costs warranty etc,

over the life of the heater, they in any form arent deal breakers. a
little shorter life, a little more cost, and as the last poster
pointed out manufacturers massage numbers, to make themselves look
good. small differences dont matter much

as long as you buy a decent tank you will be satisfied.

The FHR is largely dependent on burner size. the 75K BTU tanks cost
more but in the end what everyone wants is enough hot water. no
running out please......

== 9 of 13 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 13 2008 6:16 am
From: trader4@optonline.net

On Feb 13, 6:14 am, "Only Just" <ifixit2@hotmail(dot)com> wrote:
> "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" <donna....@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
> messagenews:P6xsj.587$fX7.417@nlpi061.nbdc.sbc.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 06:16:38 GMT, Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator
> > wrote:
> >> The math is all spelled out for us in the PDF at:
> >>http://tinyurl.com/38eh4d
> >>http://www.gamanet.org/gama/inforesources.nsf/vAttachmentLaunch/C2AAF...
>
> >> Since almost all of us were dead wrong on this one, it would be nice if
> >> someone can read that reference document and check my calculations
>
> > PLEASE DOUBLECHECK THESE HOT-WATER-HEATER CALCULATIONS!
>
> > Here are the necessary calculations I believe we need to make in order to
> > compare two gas-fired water heaters. All calculations are courtesy of the
> > referenced PDF and charts atwww.gamanet.orgexcept the energy costs which
> > are courtesy of PG&E athttp://www.pge.com/tariffs/pdf/G-1.pdf
>
> > In reality, these calculations would need to be done for at least a
> > half-dozen different water heaters (two each from Lowes, Sears, and Home
> > Depot, for example) in order to properly choose an available water heater
> > intelligently.
>
> > For simplicity, I'll use the values I plugged into the calculations for my
> > home; yours may differ but the mathematical approach is exactly the same.
> > 0. Calculate minimum legal efficiency (EF)
> > 1. Calculate maximum peak-hour requirements (FHR)
> > 2. Calculate total installed price ($/installation)
> > 3. Calculate yearly operating costs ($/year)
> > 4. Calculate payback period (months/installation)
>
> > Here are my calculations.
> > PLEASE CHECK FOR ERRORS OR OMISSIONS AS WE ALL ARE LEARNING FROM THIS!
>
> > 0. Calculate the minimum energy factor required by federal & local law:
> > (based on October 1990 Dept. of Energy Test Procedure for Water Heaters as
> > published in the May 11, 1998 Federal Register.)
>
> > For gas-fired residential water heaters, the minimum energy factor is:
> > Minimum EF for 40-gallon water heaters = 0.67 - 0.0019 * 40 = 0.58
> > Minimum EF for 50-gallon water heaters = 0.67 - 0.0019 * 50 = 0.59
>
> > Note: Southern California uses different legal minimum numbers than
> > northern California so be advised to modify the calculation for your area!
>
> > 1. Determine your peak requirements:
> > 20 gallons per shower x 2 showers in one hour = 40 gallons per hour
> > 20 gallons per bath x 0 baths in one hour = 0 gallons per hour
> > 2 gallons per shave x 0 shaves in that hour = 0 additional gallons
> > 4 gallons per personal wash x 0 = 0 additional gallons
> > 4 gallons per shampoo x 0 = 0 additional gallons (do it in the shower)
> > 4 gallons per hand dishwashing x 0 dishes = 0 gallons
> > 14 gallons per dishwasher load x 1 load = 14 additional peak gallons
> > 5 gallons per food preparation x 1 meal = 5 additional gallons
> > 26 gallons per wringer wash x 1 load = 26 additional peak gallons
> > 32 gallons per automatic wash x 0 loads = 0 additional peak gallons
> > -----
> > TOTAL PEAK GALLONS = 40 + 14 + 5 + 26 = 85 gallons First Hour Rating
>
> > 2. Determine price installed (inclusive):
> > Sears 33154 is $882 ($449 for the heater + $433 for full installation)
> > HD 183-717 is $747 ($349 for the heater + $398 for full installation)
>
> > 3. Determine yearly operating costs given your basal energy unit, FHR, EF,
> > and average-use assumption.
>
> > For simplification, I'll only compare two heaters but the calculator we
> > create needs to cover at least a few at a time. I did this in Excel for
> > current northern California baseline (Schedule G-1 Residential Service)
> > energy rates.
>
> > CHOICE A:
> > Sears 33154 (marketed as Kenmore but made by AO Smith) FHR=97 EF=0.63
> > (41,045 btu/0.63)($1.21106/therm * 1 therm/100,000 btu) x 365 = $288/year
>
> > CHOICE B:
> > Home Depot 183-717 (marketed as GE but made by Rheem) FHR=80 EF=0.58
> > (41,045 btu/0.58)($1.21106/therm * 1 therm/100,000 btu) x 365 = $313/year
>
> > Note: Irrelevant specs would have been tank size, burner BTUs, gallons to
> > recovery to 90 degrees in one hour, etc. as the only figures that matter
> > for the calculations are the EF and the FHR since they take into account
> > all other design-size specifications such as those you quoted.)
>
> > 4. Determine payback period:
> > a. Additional cost of more efficient model = $882 - $747 = $135
> > b. Annual savings of more efficient model = $313 - $288 = $25 per year
> > c. Payback period = $135 / $25 * 365 / 30 = 65 months (5.4 years)
>
> > 5. Determine overall savings:
> > The two water heaters compared in this simplified calcuation would be
> > equivalent in overall costs at approximately 5 and a half years.
>
> > Considering the average water heater lasts 13 years, total savings for the
> > more expensive yet more economical heater would be:
>
> > (13 years - 5.4 years) * $25/year = $190 savings overall
>
> > 6. Choose the correct water heater:
>
> > Based on the math everyone should perform when selecting the proper water
> > heater, I would buy the Sears 33154, which will save me almost 200 dollars
> > over its lifetime over the Home Depot 183-717 assuming current energy
> > prices and average usage.
>
> > Note: In reality, one needs to compare at least a half-dozen water
> > heaters;
> > here I only compared two for simplicity. I knew none of these calculations
> > just two days ago, so, PLEASE CHECK MY NUMBERS after reading the reference
> > document I refer to.
>
> > If the numbers hold water, then this should go into the alt.home.repair
> > FAQ
> > for everyone to benefit from all our efforts to understand how to properly
> > size & select a home water heater replacement (yes, I know there are
> > physical size issues also but this tutorial is already too long to go into
> > those details).
>
> > Donna
>
> This is all very good but can you trust the figures given by the
> manufacturers as these are often derived by engineer calculations and
> marketing guru's and are manipulated to suit their agenda.
> an example of this is how many people ever get the rated fuel consumption as
> stated by any vehicle manufacturers, also appliance manufactures have
> devised ways of confusing the figures to get a better rating that it
> actually uses. The best way to purchase the water system is to get one that
> suits your requirements as in size and water capacity.
> Justy.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

No, the tests are done per EPA rules and specs by an independent
testing lab.

Now, on the other hand, those tests are performed under a certain set
of criteria based on an estimate of how the water heater would
actually be used. I would say the difference in how someone will
actually uses it in practice as compared to how it was tested, could
easily outweigh small differences in the recorded test data under the
controlled conditions. I would bet that a heater rated at an eff of .
61 vs one at .58 could easily be a wash or even upside down in actual
use. Same thing for the first hour rating.

In other words, over analyzing this whole thing is likely a waste of
time. Even the above payback analysis is flawed, because it ignores
the time value of money. Laying out $135 today and getting it back
over the next 6 years doesn't account for the fact that the money
could be earning a return. Or if you put the heater on a credit card
and pay interest, even for a short time, and the perceived savings are
gone. Take any of that into account and the difference between these
heaters shrinks.

== 10 of 13 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 13 2008 5:50 am
From: "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"

On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 22:14:39 +1100, Only Just wrote:
> This is all very good but can you trust the figures given by the
> manufacturers as these are often derived by engineer calculations and
> marketing guru's and are manipulated to suit their agenda.

Hi Only Just,

I *think* you *can* trust these numbers (FHR & ER) ... but I'm just going
by the written facts. You have the experience I don't have.

The facts are that there are *independent* labs paid to *verify* that these
FHR and ER numbers are accurate, for example, OSHA recognizes ITSNA whose
numbers I quoted throughout the latter half of this thread.

http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_id=16637&p_table=FEDERAL_REGISTER

Gama says, as of December 12, 2007, "Intertek Testing Services of Cortland,
New York (http://www.intertek.com/) has been retained as the program
administrator and *independent* testing laboratory responsible for
conducting efficiency *verification* tests on water heaters" (emphasis
mine).

If Intertek is truly "independent", and if they do randomly select units as
their product literature says, then I think you *can* trust these numbers.

Donna

== 11 of 13 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 13 2008 6:01 am
From: "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"

On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 05:34:49 -0800 (PST), hallerb@aol.com wrote:
> bottom line provided you buy a large enough heater the other
> differences are minor,

Hi Hallerb,

I agree the whole point is to buy a "large enough heater"; the only thing
I'm saying about that is "large enough" has almost nothing directly to do
with tank size. Certainly it has nothing to do with warranty.

My personal experience after spending frustrating hours on the
hot-water-heater specialists lines at Home Depot (877-467-0542), Lowes
(877-465-6937), and Sears (800-877-6420) is that these chains try very hard
to force me to buy by tank size and warranty. Extremely hard. That tells me
a lot.

You and I know very well that most water heaters are made by about 4
different companies and they are largely similar (given any class of EF and
FHR ratings).

Even knowing that, I can't tell you how many times I told the box stores I
didn't care one bit about the tank size nor the warranty ... only to have
them go right back to comparing all their heaters by tank size and
warranty, trying to sell me on the little widget that stirs up the sediment
at the bottom of the tank or the "lifetime" warranty that's really a 1-year
labor warranty and a one-shot on lifetime.

Even after I told them comparing water heaters by tank size (instead of
performance) and meaningless warranties (they're all one-year labor) was
like comparing all automobiles by engine size (instead of performance) and
the meaningless color of paint, they *still* insisted on describing their
home water heaters by tank size and warranty! That says a lot in and of
itself!

I was shocked Lowe's so-called hot water heater specialists didn't even
have the FHR for their offering (I had to call the store and have a guy
read it off the stickers!).

When someone who is selling you something is trying so very hard to make
you look elsewhere from the actual facts, that tells us a lot. Basically,
once you have sized by FHR and priced by total costs (taking into account
EF and your local cost/therm) ... the rest is irrelevant!

Thanks for helping enlighten me and put meat into this thread!
Donna

== 12 of 13 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 13 2008 6:32 am
From: "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"

On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 06:16:37 -0800 (PST), trader4@optonline.net wrote:
> the tests are done per EPA rules and specs by an independent
> testing lab.

I agree. Intertek Testing Services is supposedly independent. If anyone has
information otherwise, please post.

> In other words, over analyzing this whole thing is likely a waste of
> time. Even the above payback analysis is flawed, because it ignores
> the time value of money.

Very good point.

Here are the original calculations I posted for inspection:
a. Additional cost of more efficient model = $882 - $747 = $135
b. Annual savings of more efficient model = $313 - $288 = $25 per year
c. Payback period = $135 / $25 * 365 / 30 = 65 months (5.4 years)
e. Overall savings = (13 years - 5.4 years) * $25/year = $190

How would we change these to take into account the time value of money?
As always, I'll hazard my math to see if it stands up to scrutiny.

Using the compound interest calculator here ...
http://www.moneychimp.com/calculator/compound_interest_calculator.htm
that $135 at 5% compounded monthly over the 5.4 years payback period
actually costs $176.75 at the 65-month point.

You're right. That's a big difference! (I don't use credit cards so I won't
factor in the additional, but huge, credit-card costs if paid on
installment!)

Conversly, the annual savings over that same 65-month period is also
increased, from $25/year to $26.28 per year using the same 5% interest rate
compounded monthly.

This more accurate payback-period calculation then becomes $177 / $26 * 365
/ 30 = 83 months (6.9 years).

The overall savings now shrinks a whopping 16% from $190 when not taking
into account the time value of money, to (13 years - 6.9 years) * $26/year
= $159

Thanks for testing the math. Please let me know what you think of the new,
more realistic calculations which take into account the time value of
money.

Donna
PS Can someone in the field write a calculator to do all this math for us?

== 13 of 13 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 13 2008 6:41 am
From: "Bob Shuman"

A quick comment on warranty period and the AVERAGE home gas water heater
life.

The AVERAGE is exactly that: an average or mean calculation of the life for
all units shipped/sold. The real life span is affected by many things,
including the water quality/hardness (it consumes the anode quicker), the
temperature setting you select (hotter means it builds more internal
pressure and you get a shorter life) and the amount of hot water that you
use (more cycles of the burner mean a shorter life).

I am on my third gas HWH and purchased the house new in 1991. The first
heater lasted about 7 years and the second 6.5 years. I had a 7-year
warranty on the tank from Sears and they gave me a replacement free of
charge which has been in now for over 5 years. I believe that I will get a
longer life this time around since two of my children are no longer living
at home.

The bottom line here is that the warranty period may be important depending
on your circumstances. It is basically a cheap insurance policy that covers
only the cost of a replacement heater. For me, that was important since I
do the installation myself, but for someone hiring a plumber, the material
cost could easily be less than the labor and associated miscellaneous
expenses (permits).

Good luck in whatever you choose.

Bob

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
message news:bIxsj.57494$Pv2.13701@newssvr23.news.prodigy.net...
> On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 21:20:35 -0700, Rick Blaine wrote:
>>>Heating less water costs less, even with equally efficient heaters.
>> Sigh. Absolutely true and totally meaningless within the context of this
>> discussion.
>> Hint: Direct energy cost is based on _use_ and efficiency, not _capacity_
>> and
>> efficiency.
>
> It turns out Rick is right.
>
> The size of the home water heater (e.g., 40 gallons, 50 gallons, etc.) is
> nearly meaningless, as is the warranty period.
>
> The only way the tank size plays any role in the selection process for
> purely physical reasons. Why? Because both the EF and the FHR already take
> into account the size of the holding tank so there is no need to even
> bother to look at tank size (other than for purely physical reasons).
>
> Likewise, the warranty is always less than the average lifetime of a home
> water heater, which, at 13 years, is vastly greater than the 1-year labor
> warrantees all the heaters I looked at (from Sears, Lowes, and Home Depot)
> provided. (Note: The 12yr/9yr/6yr/etc. warranty figures often quoted by
> Sears/Lowes/HomeDepot are for PARTS! Not labor).
>
> Thanks everyone for enlightening me ... If I didn't know better, I'd buy
> by
> the size of the tank and the warranty but now I know they are meaningless
> figures. The manufacturer WANTS you to look there but in reality, the
> truthy lies in the FHV, EF, and cost/therm.
>
> I didn't realize you guys knew so much about home water heaters ... but
> I'm
> glad you do. In only two days, I was able to take my knowledge level, with
> your help, from absolutely nothing to being able make basic lifetime cost
> comparisons given any two home heaters.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Donna

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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 13 2008 1:37 am
From: kippetjekippetje@hotmail.com

EARN 5000 EURO WITH YOUR EMAIL ADDRESS!

READ THIS MESSAGE GOOD!

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Attention!
Sign not in for a personal account, because
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You can only do that if you have at least 6 euros Paypal account or
If you
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Can:

-- First, create at least 6 transferred from your bank to your Paypal
Taking
(Duration least 3-4 days.
-- Or ask a friend with a
Credit card to transfer a minimum of 6 euros to your Paypal account.
You
you can repay him later the 6 euros back.

Send now 1 euro to the 6 email addresses listed below with
The
Words:
* PLEASE PUT ME ON YOUR EMAIL LIST *
Or
* REMEMBER ME ON YOUR MAILINGLIST *

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# 6.) "osterosky@hotmail.com

Step 3:

-- Send an e-mail to all six e-mail addresses with the
Message: "Thanks, I have joined" or "Thank you and good luck" or
something
Like ..

Copy this letter and change the order of the email addresses.

O Remove now the first (# 1) e-mail address from the above list and
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Step 4:

Change this message so that you can use it again to
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TOPIC: Ways To Remove Hair Color
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/612c8a392520aed5?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
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TOPIC: Scott Fiore has a question about traveling to Mexico for dental care
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/bf0f93dd8d39e1a2?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 13 2008 4:14 am
From: Shawn Hirn

In article
<c030a550-e545-4b38-844b-5fadc3ed1062@s13g2000prd.googlegroups.com>,
"1915PPIE@gmail.com" <1915PPIE@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi,
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==============================================================================
TOPIC: for chickpea: hfcs info
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/f6db4b1c8ae41d4f?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 13 2008 7:54 am
From: "AllEmailDeletedImmediately"

here's what i found:

This form of fructose is metabolized differently converts to fat more than
any other sugar.

It does not stimulate insulin secretion or enhance leptin, both of which act
as key signals in
regulating how much food you eat and your bodyweight.

Fructose in HFCS has no enzymes, vitamins or minerals, so it takes these
micronutrients
from your body while it assimilates itself for use. By comparison, other
sources of fructose,
such as fruit, do not create a problem for most people when used moderately
(unless they
already have insulin resistance), because they contain those micronutrients.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Skilled Nursing Homes - What Are They?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/3d58f9d2c84502ae?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 13 2008 8:03 am
From: pingtion@126.com

A skilled nursing home is a medical facility providing services
similar to a hospital. The homes are staffed with licensed nurses,
shared rooms, hospital beds, regular scheduled doctor rounds, meals
and housekeeping. Skilled nursing homes often provide a more pleasant
setting with optimal nurse to patient ratios and relaxed atmospheres.

Skilled nursing homes provide both long-term and short-term care
solutions for seniors. Unlike Assisted Living or Board and Care homes,
skilled nursing homes provide solutions for patients with complex
medical issues that require 24-hour supervision. These issues can
include mental issues such as dementia and physical issues such as
major infections, wound care, IV therapy, tube feeding and physical/
occupational therapy. Skilled nursing facilities are also a common
solution for seniors that are unable to care for themselves on daily
basis such as those suffering from Alzheimer's and Parkinson's
disease.

A skilled nursing home typically provides a team approach when
providing medical care to patients. A licensed individual, usually
called the "administrator", oversees the departments comprising the
skilled nursing home. A licensed Director of Nursing ["D.O.N."] is
then responsible for the administration of each department providing
care to residents. Each D.O.N. is directly involved in the medical
care of each patient. Their duties include overseeing nurses,
interacting with physicians and resolving any patient-related issues.
In essence, the D.O.N. is the person overseeing the day-to-day medical
care of the patient.

In addition to the Director of Nursing, a skilled nursing home will
customarily have other professionals on staff to assist patients. A
med nurse is always assigned for the sole purpose of administering
medications prescribed for the patients. Physical and occupational
therapists also work within the structure of care, coordinating
specifically ordered therapies and reporting progress to doctors. An
activities director is in charge of all social interaction and planned

http://www.dontplayplay.com/html/Finances/20060930/34164.html

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 13 2008 8:03 am
From: pingtion@126.com