Frugal Living: 25 new messages in 9 topics

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Oil is at 98!
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/c8fc3e4320768e77?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 19 2008 3:03 pm
From: clams_casino

Cheapo Groovo wrote:

>http://cheapogroovo
>
>

Is your newsletter as outdated as your spam?

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/e565eaf98e0e70b6?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 10 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 19 2008 3:31 pm
From: jakdedert

James Sweet wrote:
>> all she needs is doing one preventive maintence job that turns a
>> working whatever into a non functional disaster that costs a fortune
>> to fix.
>>
>> i rather imagine most of us have been thru one of those.
>>
>
>
> Oh it happens to the best of us, it's why contractors are bonded. I once
> went to replace the distributor on a car, somehow managed to drop a socket
> down into the timing belt cover while trying to locate TDC, and then broke
> the timing belt in the process of getting that out. Thankfully it turned out
> to be a non-interference engine so no major damage was done. On top of all
> that, the car happened to belong to my boss, and I was working on it in the
> back parking lot at work. A 20 minute job turned into 3 days of early
> mornings and late evenings since so much had to come apart to fix the stupid
> thing. In the end though no real harm was done and it was a learning
> experience to say the least. Some would give up after that, but being a true
> DIYer I climbed back in the saddle and haven't made that same mistake again.
> For every time I break something and make a job 10x what it should have
> been, I save a fortune on a dozen other projects by doing them myself and I
> can provide advice to others to prevent them from doing what I did.
>
> When I was a kid I watched my dad hit a water pipe with a Sawzall while
> putting in a light fixture, oops! Always take great care to cut a small hole
> first so you can see whats in there.
>
>
This could turn into a whole new thread of major f*ckups that we learned
from....

(One of) mine was when replacing the clutch on the family car--along
with my older brother--when we were 14 and 17 respectively. I put the
first bolt in the pressure plate, 'bumped' the starter in order to pull
the engine around to access the rest...

...and forgot to pull the coil wire. BAM! Engine fired up (briefly)
and trashed the new pressure plate. Luckily no other damage or injury
resulted.

jak

== 2 of 10 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 19 2008 3:50 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

hallerb@aol.com wrote:
> On Feb 19, 4:23?pm, 58plumb...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Feb 18, 8:23 pm, "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"
>>
>> <donna....@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> I still feel badly that I didn't replace the plastic drain valve
>>> with the brass ball valve because I was afraid the plastic was not
>>> removable (that's what Sears salespeople said anyway, instilling
>>> FUD in my mind).
>>
>> Don't bother replacing the WH drain now. Fix the clogged dishwasher
>> instead.
>> Replace that factory drain valve in six months when you flush the WH
>> for your first maintenance interval.
>>
>> As for that clogged dishwasher, you'll likely have to break the
>> bricks bricking it in in order to get to the innards.
>> Good luck. Ask questions. Take advice with a grain of salt.
>>
>> And post back with your results!
>
> donna is a nice new home owner. before you know it she will be like
> most of us long termers, doing what we must, and ignoring drain valves
> etc.
>
> all she needs is doing one preventive maintence job that turns a
> working whatever into a non functional disaster that costs a fortune
> to fix.
>
> i rather imagine most of us have been thru one of those.
>
> kinda like pruning a tree, having a limb fall onto the roof, while
> replacing damaged shingles fall off roof, hit power line, ripping it
> off the side of the house. fortunately the poor fellow didnt get
> shocked, or seriously hurt.
>
> but the colateral costs, pay someone to finish tree trimming and clean
> up, pay electrician to put service back on house, losts food in
> fridge, power was off too long. my friend, spent nearly 2 days in
> hospital, sent home on crutches.missed a week work no sick time.......
>
> this happened to a guy i knew.
>
> a old neighbor decided to replace his bathroom floor. lose floorboard,
> ran nail into water line, flood took down kitchen cieling..
>
> need plumber, new cieling and contracted out bathroom redo.
>
> so he decided cars would be his thing, took air cleaner off to adjust
> carbuerator, reved engine, air cleaner housing dropped into fan went
> thru radiator.
>
> tow truck, new fan, new radiator, misc repairs, had carb replaced.
>
> new DIYers be careful so we dont add your story to the list:)
>
> my memorable event:(
>
> did some plumbing, opened main valve with one connection still open to
> flush lines, main valve failed couldnt shut off, had to call water
> company who had great trouble finding main valve, as street had been
> raised........
>
> could of got arrested so upset i forgot to pay for valve at hardware
> store, i just walked out, no register stop, the store owner who knew
> me thought it funny, as my shoies went squish squish waterlogged as i
> walked out..
>
> just a memorable day for a home repairer.
>
> a buddy of mine in detroit was doing some wiring, turned breaker back
> on, all power in building went out, fact all power from detroit to new
> york. that big power failure from some years ago........... wasnt his
> fault but just imagine:)
>
> now that was funny!!!!!

Never had even a single one of those, and I physically built the entire house.

== 3 of 10 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 19 2008 3:52 pm
From: N8N

On Feb 19, 5:37 pm, "hall...@aol.com" <hall...@aol.com> wrote:

> all she needs is doing one preventive maintence job that turns a
> working whatever into a non functional disaster that costs a fortune
> to fix.
>
> i rather imagine most of us have been thru one of those.

Ain't that the truth.

I still err on the side of too much PM because I seem to be one of
those guys who manage to pull off just about every job I actually *do*
without too much hassle, but God forbid that I let any PM slide on
anything, it will bite me in the a$$... There are a few exceptions to
that rule however.

the funniest was, though, my ex-GF had a '69 Plymouth Valiant that I'd
found for her, because her old Monte Carlo was too much of a rusty
roach to pass PA state safety inspection without a new frame. It was
in immaculate shape, and ran and drove well. she took it to a local
garage to get it inspected and the guy failed her for dry-rotted
suspension bushings. So I called up PST, ordered a front end rebuild
kit, and went to town. I figured that it would be pretty easy, and
after all I was a mechanical engineering student so had access to the
school machine shop, what could possibly go wrong? I drove the
control arms down to another shop to have them bead blasted, painted
everything up real nice, went to put the first side back together and
I realize that the strut rod bushings are WAY too thick. Called up
PST, after being on the phone with tech support for quite some while,
figured out that they had the year breaks in their catalog wrong and I
needed the earlier version. Well their bastard people wouldn't trade
me for the ones I needed, wouldn't sell them separately, etc. etc.
etc. Also found out that one tie rod was swapped end for end so I
needed to order a new inner tie rod end as well (basic rebuild kit
only had outer tie rods, and the inspector had flagged outer tie rod
ends for replacement as well.) Car was on jackstands on the street in
front of her house for about 3 weeks while this was all going on (this
was supposed to be about a 3-day project, I had it all planned out...)
finally her annoying neighbor called the city to schedule tree
trimming, I had to throw the car together one evening wrong bushings
and all just to move it so it didn't get towed. By this time I'd
found a guy with a machine shop in his basement to turn down the strut
rod bushings for me to the thickness actually required, but I didn't
have time to R&R the lower control arm on one side.

Somewhere out there there is still a pea soup green '69 Valiant with a
nice polygraphite front end that has one original rubber lower control
arm bushing and one original rubber strut rod bushing... what a
charlie foxtrot.

You would think that I'd learned my lesson but a couple months later
my '67 Dart blew up its transmission on my way to her house, and I
coasted it into the exact same parking place where the Valiant had
been sitting. I borrowed the Valiant, went to the junkyard, got
another transmission, swapped that in at the side of the road in the
snow, and the car moved about 6 feet and never moved again. I sold it
for $50 just to get it the hell out of my sight.

Lesson learned; I don't do any work on cars outside of a garage or
driveway anymore... no job, no matter how simple appearing, is not
going to take about 10x as long as you think it is and if you're in a
hurry you're going to make mistakes.

nate

(you may all laugh at me now)

== 4 of 10 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 19 2008 4:37 pm
From: "Only Just"

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
message news:eBCuj.6698$xq2.6074@newssvr21.news.prodigy.net...
> On Tue, 19 Feb 2008 05:27:28 -0800 (PST), hallerb@aol.com wrote:
>> the plastic valves are fine if they get just ONE use, to drain the
>> tank at end of use.......
>
> Hi hallerb,
> I understand your point. But, from what I read, they used to be brass and
> the manufacturers switched to the plastic for cost reasons only.
>
> Also, I read a brass ball valve doesn't clog as easily.
>
> Given our experience this past weekend, where the valve first clogged and
> then broke off inside the water heater, it would seem to us that over
> time,
> the brass will be less likely to break than the plastic.
>
> Of course, one reason ours clogged was likely the fact we never flushed it
> so the sediments may have been too much for any valve - and one reason it
> broke is that we were manhandling it trying to get the tipped-over water
> heater back on the stand ... so you might be right.
>
> I think I now understand how to replace the brass valve. In fact, a more
> important issue came up in that our dishwasher suddenly stopped working. I
> think it's due to the sediment being sent through the pipes (our shower
> heads were totally clogged all of a sudden, with sandy grainy stuff).
>
> I opened a separate thread on alt.home.repair to ask how to clean out a
> dishwasher without being able to remove it (it's bricked in it seems).
>
> I feel like "this old house" is attacking me so it's nice to have this
> wonderful newsgroup as my friends to help in times of need!
>
> Donna
Any good installation of an appliance like a washing machine, dishwasher etc
should have a filter screen / rubber washer fitted to the hose fitting to
the tap that controls the water to the appliance, with a bit of luck it
should be as easy as to removing the hose from the tap and cleaning that
filter / screen. There could be an additional screen fitted to the water
inlet valve on the appliance as well that might need cleaning so depending
on the difficulty on accessing the fittings, start with the easy one first
and test from there before attempting the more difficult one. If you have
cleaned out all the filters and it still doesn't work you could have had the
unfortunate problem of luck that it also failed at close to the same time
(It happens occasionally unfortunately) so good luck with it all.
Justy.

== 5 of 10 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 19 2008 5:18 pm
From: "hallerb@aol.com"

On Feb 19, 7:37�pm, "Only Just" <ifixit2@hotmail(dot)com> wrote:
> "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" <donna....@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
> messagenews:eBCuj.6698$xq2.6074@newssvr21.news.prodigy.net...
>
>
>
> > On Tue, 19 Feb 2008 05:27:28 -0800 (PST), hall...@aol.com wrote:
> >> the plastic valves are fine if they get just ONE use, to drain the
> >> tank at end of use.......
>
> > Hi hallerb,
> > I understand your point. But, from what I read, they used to be brass and
> > the manufacturers switched to the plastic for cost reasons only.
>
> > Also, I read a brass ball valve doesn't clog as easily.
>
> > Given our experience this past weekend, where the valve first clogged and
> > then broke off inside the water heater, it would seem to us that over
> > time,
> > the brass will be less likely to break than the plastic.
>
> > Of course, one reason ours clogged was likely the fact we never flushed it
> > so the sediments may have been too much for any valve - and one reason it
> > broke is that we were manhandling it trying to get the tipped-over water
> > heater back on the stand ... so you might be right.
>
> > I think I now understand how to replace the brass valve. In fact, a more
> > important issue came up in that our dishwasher suddenly stopped working. I
> > think it's due to the sediment being sent through the pipes (our shower
> > heads were totally clogged all of a sudden, with sandy grainy stuff).
>
> > I opened a separate thread on alt.home.repair to ask how to clean out a
> > dishwasher without being able to remove it (it's bricked in it seems).
>
> > I feel like "this old house" is attacking me so it's nice to have this
> > wonderful newsgroup as my friends to help in times of need!
>
> > Donna
>
> Any good installation of an appliance like a washing machine, dishwasher etc
> should have a filter screen / rubber washer fitted to the hose fitting to
> the tap that controls the water to the appliance, with a bit of luck it
> should be as easy as to removing the hose from the tap and cleaning that
> filter / screen. There could be an additional screen fitted to the water
> inlet valve on the appliance as well that might need cleaning so depending
> on the difficulty on accessing the fittings, start with the easy one first
> and test from there before attempting the more difficult one. If you have
> cleaned out all the filters and it still doesn't work you could have had the
> unfortunate problem of luck that it also failed at close to the same time
> (It happens occasionally unfortunately) so good luck with it all.
> Justy.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I just installed a couple dishwashers, one for us and one for a
friend, and one for a friend, no screen washers,,,,,,,,,

== 6 of 10 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 19 2008 5:19 pm
From: "hallerb@aol.com"

On Feb 19, 6:50�pm, "Rod Speed" <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote:
> hall...@aol.com wrote:
> > On Feb 19, 4:23?pm, 58plumb...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On Feb 18, 8:23 pm, "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"
>
> >> <donna....@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>> I still feel badly that I didn't replace the plastic drain valve
> >>> with the brass ball valve because I was afraid the plastic was not
> >>> removable (that's what Sears salespeople said anyway, instilling
> >>> FUD in my mind).
>
> >> Don't bother replacing the WH drain now. Fix the clogged dishwasher
> >> instead.
> >> Replace that factory drain valve in six months when you flush the WH
> >> for your first maintenance interval.
>
> >> As for that clogged dishwasher, you'll likely have to break the
> >> bricks bricking it in in order to get to the innards.
> >> Good luck. Ask questions. Take advice with a grain of salt.
>
> >> And post back with your results!
>
> > donna is a nice new home owner. before you know it she will be like
> > most of us long termers, doing what we must, and ignoring drain valves
> > etc.
>
> > all she needs is doing one preventive maintence job that turns a
> > working whatever into a non functional disaster that costs a fortune
> > to fix.
>
> > i rather imagine most of us have been thru one of those.
>
> > kinda like pruning a tree, having a limb fall onto the roof, while
> > replacing �damaged shingles fall off roof, hit power line, ripping it
> > off the side of the house. fortunately the poor fellow didnt get
> > shocked, or seriously hurt.
>
> > but the colateral costs, pay someone to finish tree trimming and clean
> > up, pay electrician to put service back on house, losts food in
> > fridge, power was off too long. my friend, spent nearly 2 days in
> > hospital, sent home on crutches.missed a week work no sick time.......
>
> > this happened to a guy i knew.
>
> > a old neighbor decided to replace his bathroom floor. lose floorboard,
> > ran nail into water line, flood took down kitchen cieling..
>
> > need plumber, new cieling and contracted out bathroom redo.
>
> > so he decided cars would be his thing, took air cleaner off to adjust
> > carbuerator, reved engine, air cleaner housing dropped into fan went
> > thru radiator.
>
> > tow truck, new fan, new radiator, misc repairs, had carb replaced.
>
> > new DIYers be careful so we dont add your story to the list:)
>
> > my memorable event:(
>
> > did some plumbing, opened main valve with one connection still open to
> > flush lines, main valve failed couldnt shut off, had to call water
> > company who had great trouble finding main valve, as street had been
> > raised........
>
> > could of got arrested so upset i forgot to pay for valve at hardware
> > store, i just walked out, no register stop, the store owner who knew
> > me thought it funny, as my shoies went squish squish waterlogged as i
> > walked out..
>
> > just a memorable day for a home repairer.
>
> > a buddy of mine in detroit was doing some wiring, turned breaker back
> > on, all power in building went out, fact all power from detroit to new
> > york. that big power failure from some years ago........... wasnt his
> > fault but just imagine:)
>
> > now that was funny!!!!!
>
> Never had even a single one of those, and I physically built the entire house.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

new work is safer, you know whats there.

old work is a pain cause you cant know where stuff is, like hidden
water phone and electric lines

== 7 of 10 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 19 2008 5:40 pm
From: "James Sweet"

>I just installed a couple dishwashers, one for us and one for a
>friend, and one for a friend, no screen washers,,,,,,,,,

They usually have one in the water inlet solenoid itself. Thankfully the
intake plumbing on a dishwasher is really simple. Copper tubing to a
compression fitting at the solenoid valve, and a hose out of that through a
nozzle into the washer compartment. The recirculation plumbing that does the
washing is separate and very hard to clog.

== 8 of 10 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 19 2008 6:41 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

hallerb@aol.com wrote:
> On Feb 19, 6:50?pm, "Rod Speed" <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote:
>> hall...@aol.com wrote:
>>> On Feb 19, 4:23?pm, 58plumb...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> On Feb 18, 8:23 pm, "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"
>>
>>>> <donna....@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>> I still feel badly that I didn't replace the plastic drain valve
>>>>> with the brass ball valve because I was afraid the plastic was not
>>>>> removable (that's what Sears salespeople said anyway, instilling
>>>>> FUD in my mind).
>>
>>>> Don't bother replacing the WH drain now. Fix the clogged dishwasher
>>>> instead.
>>>> Replace that factory drain valve in six months when you flush the
>>>> WH for your first maintenance interval.
>>
>>>> As for that clogged dishwasher, you'll likely have to break the
>>>> bricks bricking it in in order to get to the innards.
>>>> Good luck. Ask questions. Take advice with a grain of salt.
>>
>>>> And post back with your results!
>>
>>> donna is a nice new home owner. before you know it she will be like
>>> most of us long termers, doing what we must, and ignoring drain
>>> valves etc.
>>
>>> all she needs is doing one preventive maintence job that turns a
>>> working whatever into a non functional disaster that costs a fortune
>>> to fix.
>>
>>> i rather imagine most of us have been thru one of those.
>>
>>> kinda like pruning a tree, having a limb fall onto the roof, while
>>> replacing ?damaged shingles fall off roof, hit power line, ripping
>>> it off the side of the house. fortunately the poor fellow didnt get
>>> shocked, or seriously hurt.
>>
>>> but the colateral costs, pay someone to finish tree trimming and
>>> clean up, pay electrician to put service back on house, losts food
>>> in fridge, power was off too long. my friend, spent nearly 2 days in
>>> hospital, sent home on crutches.missed a week work no sick
>>> time.......
>>
>>> this happened to a guy i knew.
>>
>>> a old neighbor decided to replace his bathroom floor. lose
>>> floorboard, ran nail into water line, flood took down kitchen
>>> cieling..
>>
>>> need plumber, new cieling and contracted out bathroom redo.
>>
>>> so he decided cars would be his thing, took air cleaner off to
>>> adjust carbuerator, reved engine, air cleaner housing dropped into
>>> fan went thru radiator.
>>
>>> tow truck, new fan, new radiator, misc repairs, had carb replaced.
>>
>>> new DIYers be careful so we dont add your story to the list:)
>>
>>> my memorable event:(
>>
>>> did some plumbing, opened main valve with one connection still open
>>> to flush lines, main valve failed couldnt shut off, had to call
>>> water company who had great trouble finding main valve, as street
>>> had been raised........
>>
>>> could of got arrested so upset i forgot to pay for valve at hardware
>>> store, i just walked out, no register stop, the store owner who knew
>>> me thought it funny, as my shoies went squish squish waterlogged as
>>> i walked out..
>>
>>> just a memorable day for a home repairer.
>>
>>> a buddy of mine in detroit was doing some wiring, turned breaker
>>> back on, all power in building went out, fact all power from
>>> detroit to new york. that big power failure from some years
>>> ago........... wasnt his fault but just imagine:)
>>
>>> now that was funny!!!!!
>>
>> Never had even a single one of those, and I physically built the
>> entire house.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> new work is safer, you know whats there.
>
> old work is a pain cause you cant know where stuff is, like hidden
> water phone and electric lines

I've never had anything like that with previous houses
either, and its easy enough to check for that stuff.

== 9 of 10 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 19 2008 7:04 pm
From: Bob

Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator wrote:
> The only good thing was you had already admonished us to have tepid water
> in the tank and that's what saved us from getting scalded as Bill stuck his
> finger in the hole (it was just the right size) to stop the leak and I
> bucketed the water outside.

Another trick to totally avoid the plastic drain valve is to have a 3/4"
pipe fitting ready that can attach to a hose, then unscrew and remove
the gas valve and thermostat assembly and slide the pipe and hose in its
place.

== 10 of 10 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 19 2008 11:03 pm
From: "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"

On Tue, 19 Feb 2008 17:30:23 GMT, James Sweet wrote:
> The dishwasher is bricked in? Sheesh, how did they even manage that?
> Fortunately most things can be accessed by removing the kick plate.

Hi James,
I'm going to try to remove that kick plate later this week.
I unclogged the shower yesterday; it was filled with sand grains:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2279233720/

I unclogged the kitchen sink with a scissors today.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2279233724/

Notice the sand grains on my cutting board.
They were all over the place!

This new sand does not look like the "scale" that was in the galvanized
pipes!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2273250265/

Where did all this sand come from?

Donna

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Predictions on oil costs for next decade
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/4d8ed6676617cb7f?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 19 2008 4:03 pm
From: WaterBoy

.
it depends
partly on how many countries our King invades

10 years out is quite a while

how about "anything can happen?"

waterboy

==============================================================================
TOPIC: How many therms (natural gas) do you use per day (per month)?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/99d004d38152f87d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 19 2008 4:41 pm
From: Angelo Campanella

Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator wrote:
>>I used 120 therms in the past 30 days (about 4 therms per day).
>>HOW MANY THERMS DID YOU USE LAST MONTH?

ASSUMING that one therm equals 100 cubic feet (CCF) of (Ohio) gas, in
2001 just before we installed a high efficiency (sucks air and and blows
exahust via ground level tubes) we used (Columbia Gas here reads meters
only every other month, so I divided true reading deltas by two)

between 21 (summer) and 234 CCF (Winter).

The summer 8-20 CCF is hotwater plus gas dryer.
House is 1,500 square feet, with half-basement.
We are empty-nesters.

In summary:

2000: 20 - 188 CCF
2001: 21 - 234 CCF

In October, 2001, we insalled the Hi-eff ("90%") furnace, and then the
consumptions became:

2002: 8 to 136 CCF.
2003: --
2004: 9 - 150 CCF
2005: 12 - 153 CCF
2006: 11 - 157 CCF
2007: 9 - 164 CCF

rough summary:

Annually before, 1100 CCF/yr
Annually after, 850 CCF/yr

The stated effficiency of the old furnace was 60% (40% went up the
chimney). (120,000 BTU burner)
The new furnace is 90% (10% goes out the exhaust, and water condensate
trickles into my sump pump well). (90,000 BTU burner.

> I should note that California alots only 2 therms a day for baseline costs
> of about $1.22 per therm (plus 5 cents per therm PPP Surcharge); so
> apparently I'm consuming double the natural gas energy California allows
> (regardless of home size or number of people) for base rates.

We (me & wife) use just over two per day.

> The over-baseline charges are $1.37 per therm plus that same 5 cents per
> therm additional charge for poor people (i.e., the California Gas PPP
> Surcharge).

Our rates are "all over the place".

> Does ANYONE actually use just 2 therms per day for their gas furnace and
> hot-water heater for two people living in a small 1,500 sqft house?

Sometimes. As our two boys were growing up, it was a bit crowded at
times. But we prevailed: They left the nest, and now here we are!

Angelo campanella

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 19 2008 4:48 pm
From: Angelo Campanella

Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator wrote:
> (California) baseline costs
> of about $1.22 per therm (plus 5 cents per therm PPP Surcharge.
> The over-baseline charges are $1.37 per therm plus that same 5 cents per
> therm additional charge for poor people (i.e., the California Gas PPP
> Surcharge).

Our recent (Ohio) gas bill was $248 for 187 CCF = $1.33 per CCF.

Angelo campanella

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Question on potentially sediment-clogged dishwasher (how to diagnose &
repair)?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/ab38615660f0cdb0?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 19 2008 7:25 pm
From: "Edwin Pawlowski"

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
message
>
> Do you know how to unclog the hot/cold water to the bathroom tub and
> dishwasher?
>
> Donna

Tub is no different than the sink. Depends on what brand of faucet though.
You may have to remove a front bezel. Go to the web page of the
manufacturer and look for instructions to replace the seals or cartridge.

Dishwasher may be more difficult. If you get lucky, you may be able to just
disconnect the water feed and clean out right inside the solenoid valve. If
not, you may have to remove the DW and remove the valve to clean it. Going
from memory, the feed on mine is right behind the bottom front panel. Check
the spray arms also while you are at it.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: ? for landlords
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/648f8a4eebe4a886?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 19 2008 7:40 pm
From: barbie gee

On Tue, 19 Feb 2008, Bill wrote:

>>
>> so how do i go about doing these checks?
>
> Multiple checks, search google.com for the words...
> renter check
>
> Renter history check - look for local rental association - ask large
> apartment complexes where they get their checks run. Local landlord
> associations may do this and also have free forms for member's use like
> rental agreements, lease agreements, etc.
>
> Driver's license check - Go to DMV.
>
> Credit check - search google.com for the words...
> tenant credit check
>
> Criminal check - State police.

for all that time and screwing around, if you value your time, you'll call
a real professional Tenant Screening Agency. they can get info
nationwide, which is useful if the prospective tenants have only moved to
town recently.

work w/ someone that's got some certifications and has been in business
for awhile.
see:
National Association of Professional Background Screeners
National Assoication of Screening Agencies
others

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 19 2008 7:58 pm
From: George Grapman

barbie gee wrote:
>
>
> On Tue, 19 Feb 2008, Bill wrote:
>
>>>
>>> so how do i go about doing these checks?
>>
>> Multiple checks, search google.com for the words...
>> renter check
>>
>> Renter history check - look for local rental association - ask large
>> apartment complexes where they get their checks run. Local landlord
>> associations may do this and also have free forms for member's use like
>> rental agreements, lease agreements, etc.
>>
>> Driver's license check - Go to DMV.
>>
>> Credit check - search google.com for the words...
>> tenant credit check
>>
>> Criminal check - State police.
>
> for all that time and screwing around, if you value your time, you'll
> call a real professional Tenant Screening Agency. they can get info
> nationwide, which is useful if the prospective tenants have only moved
> to town recently.

Speaking of which it sometimes is a better idea to let a qualified
rental agent do everything from screening tenants, showing units,
collecting rents doing repairs and and handling evictions.
I lived in a 12 unit building that was run by a management firm. The
owner decided to save money by doing everything himself. After numerous
night and weekend calls about hot water,plumbing problems and trips to
the building to collect late rent he decided to get a new property
management firm.

>
> work w/ someone that's got some certifications and has been in business
> for awhile.
> see:
> National Association of Professional Background Screeners
> National Assoication of Screening Agencies
> others

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 19 2008 8:52 pm
From: aemeijers

George Grapman wrote:
> barbie gee wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Tue, 19 Feb 2008, Bill wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>> so how do i go about doing these checks?
>>>
>>> Multiple checks, search google.com for the words...
>>> renter check
>>>
>>> Renter history check - look for local rental association - ask large
>>> apartment complexes where they get their checks run. Local landlord
>>> associations may do this and also have free forms for member's use like
>>> rental agreements, lease agreements, etc.
>>>
>>> Driver's license check - Go to DMV.
>>>
>>> Credit check - search google.com for the words...
>>> tenant credit check
>>>
>>> Criminal check - State police.
>>
>> for all that time and screwing around, if you value your time, you'll
>> call a real professional Tenant Screening Agency. they can get info
>> nationwide, which is useful if the prospective tenants have only moved
>> to town recently.
>
> Speaking of which it sometimes is a better idea to let a qualified
> rental agent do everything from screening tenants, showing units,
> collecting rents doing repairs and and handling evictions.
> I lived in a 12 unit building that was run by a management firm. The
> owner decided to save money by doing everything himself. After numerous
> night and weekend calls about hot water,plumbing problems and trips to
> the building to collect late rent he decided to get a new property
> management firm.
>
Understood from a PITA basis, and may even make sense on a young
building with decent tenants. But if you have an older building, or only
a rental house or two, a management company can quickly make the margin
between the mortgage payment and the gross receipts vanish without a
trace. Not everyone should be a landlord- it does take commitment, and
some basic level of knowledge about the trades, as well as all the usual
pitfalls of running a small businesss.

aem sends...

==============================================================================
TOPIC: HD-TV converter box rip-off ....
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/4a9061c13abe5727?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 19 2008 8:02 pm
From: A

You know these set top boxes coming out soon so you can get HDTV to come
through your old regular TV? (because analog transmission is ordered by
the govt to stop next February?).

So, I tried to use their website to "apply for" those coupons worth $40.

And, after filling out the form, it bombed me off with an error (after
telling me I had to allow them to set a cookie). I tried several times AND
with two different web browsers.

Next trick: I decided to call their 800 number on the telephone and make a
voice "application" for the coupons. So what happened? Its all robot voice
menus and you never talk to a human being. It asks a lot of question
including what is your home phone number and then that phone number is
looked up by their computer because it then, by robot voice, asks "is
__X__ your address" and punch "1" if correct, then it asks my name and
spell it out, and asks if correct press "1" and then, guess, what ... it
comes back (the robot voice) and says "you are not elligible for a coupon"
and if I want to appeal that I have to send a letter and they give a
confirmation letter.

I have not seen any articles that explain who is or is not elligible for a
coupon.

This, and all the money they spend to check up on "eligibility" with
database accesses sure seems like a big waste, a big betrayal, and a big
doublecross to me.

And, if I fill out the form with pen/pensil and mail it in, what secret
criteria could they come up with to deny or otherwise say I'm not
elligible for the coupon now?

Are they collecting all this data for a database? For what?

== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 19 2008 8:50 pm
From: Tim May

In article <Pine.NEB.4.64.0802192251240.9510@panix3.panix.com>,
<arthures@panix.com> wrote:

> You know these set top boxes coming out soon so you can get HDTV to come
> through your old regular TV? (because analog transmission is ordered by
> the govt to stop next February?).

>
> And, if I fill out the form with pen/pensil and mail it in, what secret
> criteria could they come up with to deny or otherwise say I'm not
> elligible for the coupon now?
>

Check any box that is marked "Hispanic" or "African-American."

These giveaways are reserved for the Usual Suspects, the negroes, the
Mexicans, the immigrants, welfare recipients.

Taxpayers subsidize these boxes so that the untermenschen will have
their Oprah, their Mexican wrestling shows, their Air America liberal
t.v.

The irony is that people who stay at home and watch t.v. all day
usually have plasma t.v.s and LCDs that are better than what working
whites can afford.

--Tim May

== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 19 2008 8:53 pm
From: George Grapman

Tim May wrote:
> In article <Pine.NEB.4.64.0802192251240.9510@panix3.panix.com>,
> <arthures@panix.com> wrote:
>
>> You know these set top boxes coming out soon so you can get HDTV to come
>> through your old regular TV? (because analog transmission is ordered by
>> the govt to stop next February?).
>
>> And, if I fill out the form with pen/pensil and mail it in, what secret
>> criteria could they come up with to deny or otherwise say I'm not
>> elligible for the coupon now?
>>
>
> Check any box that is marked "Hispanic" or "African-American."
>
> These giveaways are reserved for the Usual Suspects, the negroes, the
> Mexicans, the immigrants, welfare recipients.
>
> Taxpayers subsidize these boxes so that the untermenschen will have
> their Oprah, their Mexican wrestling shows, their Air America liberal
> t.v.
>
> The irony is that people who stay at home and watch t.v. all day
> usually have plasma t.v.s and LCDs that are better than what working
> whites can afford.
>
>
> --Tim May

As Tim May infests yet another group I once again kill file him. Tim
blames all his unhappiness on minorities.

== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 19 2008 9:28 pm
From: nospam@noway.net (Ralph)

I bought this Microsoft keyboard with a rebate. Carefully read the
instructions and filled out the rebate form. Sent it in with a copy of
the recept and top of box with the barcode (proof of purchase) like it
said. Got a letter back from Microsoft saying I hadn't properly
satisified all the conditions of the rebate without telling me what I
did wrong or sending anything back. Total bullshit. They ripped me off.

A <arthures@panix.com> wrote:

> You know these set top boxes coming out soon so you can get HDTV to come
> through your old regular TV? (because analog transmission is ordered by
> the govt to stop next February?).
>
> So, I tried to use their website to "apply for" those coupons worth $40.
>
> And, after filling out the form, it bombed me off with an error (after
> telling me I had to allow them to set a cookie). I tried several times AND
> with two different web browsers.
>
> Next trick: I decided to call their 800 number on the telephone and make a
> voice "application" for the coupons. So what happened? Its all robot voice
> menus and you never talk to a human being. It asks a lot of question
> including what is your home phone number and then that phone number is
> looked up by their computer because it then, by robot voice, asks "is
> __X__ your address" and punch "1" if correct, then it asks my name and
> spell it out, and asks if correct press "1" and then, guess, what ... it
> comes back (the robot voice) and says "you are not elligible for a coupon"
> and if I want to appeal that I have to send a letter and they give a
> confirmation letter.
>
> I have not seen any articles that explain who is or is not elligible for a
> coupon.
>
> This, and all the money they spend to check up on "eligibility" with
> database accesses sure seems like a big waste, a big betrayal, and a big
> doublecross to me.
>
> And, if I fill out the form with pen/pensil and mail it in, what secret
> criteria could they come up with to deny or otherwise say I'm not
> elligible for the coupon now?
>
> Are they collecting all this data for a database? For what?

== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 19 2008 10:27 pm
From: beebs

On Feb 19, 8:53 pm, George Grapman <sfgeo...@paccbell.net> wrote:

> As Tim May infests yet another group I once again kill
> file him. Tim blames all his unhappiness on minorities.

Why the announcement? Just killfile him. Do you
expect to get a medal?

beebs
anarchist

==============================================================================
TOPIC: It's over Johnny!
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/1168e84eff4841b1?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 19 2008 8:19 pm
From: "RodSpeed,_the_EWA_fund_is_doing_great"

This will not be televised:

http://www.revolution.com/

==============================================================================
TOPIC: cheap juicy dg calvin klein dsquared underwear men women abercrombie &
fitch
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/680b3b1d309b2e3d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 19 2008 9:03 pm
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Tuesday, February 19, 2008

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