Frugal Living: misc.consumers.frugal-living - 25 new messages in 8 topics

misc.consumers.frugal-living
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Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: OT - Survivalism Retail Style
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/da641b3711ca2726?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 16 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 7 2009 12:58 pm
From: phil scott

On Jan 7, 10:38 am, "Ed Huntress" <huntre...@optonline.net> wrote:
> "CanopyCo" <Junk74...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> news:d09a199d-ee1c-4fb0-95c4-2ea1e5e7c567@s9g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> What I don't get is how can they give 75% off and not loose money?
>
> They can't. But they would lose more if it winds up as unsold inventory.
> They're clearing their inventory, which most retailers have to do from time
> to time -- at least, the ones that want to stay in business.
>
> The counterexample is the old hardware store that keeps inventory forever.
> The last one I know of around here went broke 15 years ago.
>
> >Did they mark it up 100% in the first place?
>
> Markup, markon...don't get us confused. <g> They more than double the price
> they paid for it.
>
> Clothing in big retailers is marked up around 60% or so. That means that
> they pay $4 and sell it for $10. Jewelry is around 70%. And so on.
>
> >Maybe they will start charging a fair mark up instead of trying to
> >burn us every time.
>
> Those are the "fair" markups. At those rates, they just make a profit.
>
> BTW, when I was marketing machine tools, our typical markup was 55%.
>
> --
> Ed Huntress

brick and motar retail is going to be taking larger and larger hits as
the same goods can be sold on line with
a fraction of the storage costs... and in the case or 'order to suit'
on line, almost no storage costs.

This will put serious pressure on commcl real estate owners.. as its
potential renters can no longer afford the rents.

for the nation to recover that real estate will have to become part
of the manufacturing cycle...imo.

already we are seeing that in depressed home price markets, as empty
homes are rented or taken over by squatters and used to
make crack cocaine, speed, angel dust, pink pimps, or to grow
majijanna. I have no earthly idea what can be done with all of this
ludicrously over built retail space...especially as fully half of our
work force retires over the next 8 years and begin dropping deader
than hell shortly there after (80 million folk who will not give a
damn where the walmart is)

Phil scott

== 2 of 16 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 7 2009 1:28 pm
From: Too_Many_Tools

On Jan 7, 2:33 pm, phil scott <p...@philscott.net> wrote:
> On Jan 7, 7:51 am, Too_Many_Tools <too_many_to...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Has the devaluation cycle begun?
>
> > And if you can buy goods for a few cents on the dollar, why won't your
> > boss expect the same deal when it comes to labor costs?
>
> > And will you see the degree of discounting in what you want to buy?
>
> > Finally...is this a sign of where housing and transportation are
> > headed..75% discounts and more?
>
> > TMT
>
> > After sales, will shoppers pay full price again?
> > By ANNE D'INNOCENZIO, AP Retail Writer Anne D'innocenzio, Ap Retail
> > Writer Wed Jan 7, 7:05 am ET
> > NEW YORK – Shoppers are getting used to those 75 percent off sale
> > signs, and that's bad news for merchants who worry they will also have
> > to quickly slash prices on spring goods to attract customers.
>
> > Anxieties about how rampant discounts have affected shoppers' psyches
> > and stores' profits are running high ahead of expected dismal December
> > sales figures on Thursday. The holiday season is anticipated to be the
> > worst in decades.
>
> > Already, retailers including Bebe Stores Inc. and J.Crew Group Inc.
> > are cutting prices on selected spring styles to lure sale-savvy
> > shoppers.
>
> > "It is a vicious cycle that no one wants to continue," said Gilbert
> > Harrison, chairman of Financo Inc., an investment banking firm
> > specializing in retailing. The discounts will be a key topic at
> > Financo's annual dinner on Monday for retail chief executives.
>
> > In addition, retailers expect competition from a rise in liquidation
> > sales — the fallout from the horrible holiday period.
>
> > Merchants struggling to clear out mounds of deeply discounted coats
> > and sweaters are wondering how they are going to get nervous shoppers
> > to splurge on new spring products.
>
> > The deep price cuts are making shoppers question the true value of
> > items. If they can get $200 jeans at 60 percent off, will they be
> > willing to pay the original price next fall?
>
> > "Our sense of what is fair and what is a good deal has changed," said
> > Michal Ann Strahilevitz, professor of marketing at the Golden Gate
> > University's Ageno School of Business. She said that a sale has to be
> > at least 70 percent off to be considered a bargain now.
>
> > Marcia Layton Turner, a mother of two from Rochester, N.Y., recently
> > walked away from an outfit that she spotted at a local Kohl's store
> > that was 50 percent off.
>
> > "Forty to 50 percent used to excite me," the 43-year-old writer said.
> > "Now, I want at least 70 percent." Turner says she has taken advantage
> > of 75 percent discounts on children's clothes in recent weeks and is
> > willing to wait to get the same type of deals in the coming months.
>
> > Consumers across the spectrum have been holding back.
>
> > Overall sales of apparel fell 17.3 percent from Nov. 30 through Jan.
> > 3, while footwear sales dropped 12 percent compared to the same period
> > a year ago, according to figures released Wednesday by SpendingPulse,
> > a data service provided by MasterCard Advisors that estimates U.S.
> > retail sales across all payment forms including cash and checks.
>
> > Sales of electronics and appliances dropped 21.4 percent, while luxury
> > goods suffered a 27.6 percent drop. Online sales rose 4.6 percent.
>
> > Fourth-quarter profits are likely to decline more than 19 percent,
> > said Ken Perkins, president of research company RetailMetrics LLC.
> > Excluding Wal-Mart Stores Inc., one of the few bright spots, he said
> > the drop is expected to reach almost 28 percent.
>
> > Perkins predicts that profits will keep falling into the first
> > quarter, projecting an 11 percent drop; excluding Wal-Mart, that
> > figure is likely to fall more than 17 percent.
>
> > The financial meltdown in September that led to an abrupt halt in
> > spending came too late for merchants to dramatically adjust spring
> > inventories. Many stores order goods four to seven months in advance.
>
> > And while spring inventories are estimated to be down as much as 30
> > percent from year-ago levels, many analysts say that inventories
> > should be down even more. Barclays Capital analyst Jeff Black believes
> > it will take at least until the back-to-school season to get
> > inventories in line with consumer demand, and even then stores will
> > still face the challenge of weaning shoppers away from deals.
>
> > For those shoppers who could still load up on deeply discounted
> > merchandise, the last few weeks have been paradise. Even before the
> > Thanksgiving weekend, the traditional start of the holiday shopping
> > season, Saks Fifth Avenue marked down shoes by 70 percent.
>
> > But earlier deals look measly compared with some current offers as
> > merchants try to get rid of their holiday products by the end of the
> > month. The upscale DKNY store on New York's Madison Avenue is
> > plastered with a sign proclaiming "Up to 90 percent off."
>
> > As retailers work to clear out old merchandise, analysts say many are
> > trying to hold back on discounting new winter and spring items. Dan de
> > Grandpre, editor-in-chief of dealnews.com, said he is seeing more
> > bundling deals — a flat-panel TV that comes with a free Blu-ray
> > system, for example.
>
> > But many doubt that such strategies will work and predict early
> > discounts on spring goods. The signs are already there. Bebe has cut
> > certain spring sweaters by 25 percent, while J.Crew has marked some
> > spring items anywhere from 25 to 40 percent off, according to Amy
> > Wilcox Noblin, an analyst at PaliCapital Inc.
>
> > It will be years before shoppers are going to be enticed by discounts
> > of less than 50 percent, said C. Britt Beemer, chairman of America's
> > Research Group.
>
> > Traditional stores have also had to dump more excess goods at off-
> > price retailers like TJ Maxx, which reduce prices more, said Marshal
> > Cohen, chief industry analyst at market research firm NPD Group Inc.
>
> > But a bigger problem is liquidation sales at stores that are either
> > closing specific locations or shutting down the entire business.
>
> > Going-out-of-business sales at KB Toys and Linens 'N Things put
> > pressure on other retailers even before Christmas, and analysts expect
> > competition to get fiercer amid a likely spike in bankruptcy filings.
>
> > James Schaye, president and CEO of Hudson Capital Partners LLC., which
> > has overseen liquidations of Mervyns LLC, Tweeter Home Entertainment
> > Group Inc. and Steve & Barry's, estimated that his company liquidated
> > about $3 billion in merchandise in the October through December
> > period, compared with about $400 million a year ago.
>
> factor this in anyway you can... what happens to govt tax revenue
> when prices and wages take a hit?
>
> answer, they tank, defunding government... which then prints money
> (since it can no longer sell bonds contrary to its lies on the
> matter).
>
> the printed money becomes worthless... so bread eventually costs 40
> million dollars a loaf.
>
> there are delays in the cycle making these direct effects.
>
> you are looking that delay phenomena
>
> Phil scott- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I agree and you don't have to wait for it...check out the state
budgets.

46 out of 50 states are already in very deep trouble including our
beloved CA.

TMT

== 3 of 16 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 7 2009 1:31 pm
From: Too_Many_Tools

On Jan 7, 2:58 pm, phil scott <p...@philscott.net> wrote:
> On Jan 7, 10:38 am, "Ed Huntress" <huntre...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "CanopyCo" <Junk74...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> >news:d09a199d-ee1c-4fb0-95c4-2ea1e5e7c567@s9g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> > What I don't get is how can they give 75% off and not loose money?
>
> > They can't. But they would lose more if it winds up as unsold inventory.
> > They're clearing their inventory, which most retailers have to do from time
> > to time -- at least, the ones that want to stay in business.
>
> > The counterexample is the old hardware store that keeps inventory forever.
> > The last one I know of around here went broke 15 years ago.
>
> > >Did they mark it up 100% in the first place?
>
> > Markup, markon...don't get us confused. <g> They more than double the price
> > they paid for it.
>
> > Clothing in big retailers is marked up around 60% or so. That means that
> > they pay $4 and sell it for $10. Jewelry is around 70%. And so on.
>
> > >Maybe they will start charging a fair mark up instead of trying to
> > >burn us every time.
>
> > Those are the "fair" markups. At those rates, they just make a profit.
>
> > BTW, when I was marketing machine tools, our typical markup was 55%.
>
> > --
> > Ed Huntress
>
> brick and motar retail is going to be taking larger and larger hits as
> the same goods can be sold on line with
> a fraction of the storage costs... and in the case or 'order to suit'
> on line, almost no storage costs.
>
> This will put serious pressure on commcl real estate owners.. as its
> potential renters can no longer afford the rents.
>
> for the nation to recover that real estate will have to become part
> of the manufacturing cycle...imo.
>
> already we are seeing that in depressed home price markets, as empty
> homes are rented or taken over by squatters and used to
> make crack cocaine, speed, angel dust, pink pimps, or to grow
> majijanna. I have no earthly idea what can be done with all of this
> ludicrously over built retail space...especially as fully half of our
> work force retires over the next 8 years and begin dropping deader
> than hell shortly there after (80 million folk who will not give a
> damn where the walmart is)
>
> Phil scott- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Phil makes a very good point about the aging demographics.

This recession/depression could not have come at a worse time for the
Baby Boomers.

Are you ready for Mom and Dad to move into your house?...or join you
under your selected bridge?

I am waiting to see what happens when the Government defaults...and
suddenly all those SS checks are worth the paper they are printed on.

TMT

== 4 of 16 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 7 2009 1:35 pm
From: Curly Surmudgeon

On Wed, 07 Jan 2009 12:49:35 -0800, phil scott wrote:

> On Jan 7, 10:30 am, Curly Surmudgeon <CurlySurmudg...@live.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, 07 Jan 2009 13:15:58 -0500, Ed Huntress wrote:
>> > <EskWI...@spamblock.panix.com> wrote in message
>> >news:gk2ntk$ih9$2@reader1.panix.com...
>> >> In misc.survivalism Curly Surmudgeon <CurlySurmudg...@live.com>
>> >> wrote:
>>
>> >>> I wonder if it's possible to simultaneously suffer both deflation
>> >>> and inflation?
>>
>> >> Winston says Yes.
>>
>> > Winston be wrong. You can have inflation and a contracting economy
>> > (stagflation), or deflation and a contracting economy (recession),
>> > but you can't have aggregate inflation and aggregate deflation at the
>> > same time.
>>
>> Depends on your definition of "deflation."
>>
>> "Inflation destroys real value in money. Deflation creates real value
>> in money. Alternatively, the term deflation was used by the classical
>> economists to refer to a decrease in the money supply and credit; some
>> economists, including many Austrian school economists, still use the
>> word in this sense. The two meanings are closely related, since a
>> decrease in the money supply is likely to cause a decrease in the price
>> level."
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deflation
>>
>> --
>> Regards, Curly
>>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> 13 Days More of George Walker Bush Plundering the Economy
>>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> in the extreme cases of stagflation, a man will work all day for
> half a bowl of rice.

That's the word I was searching for, I'm losing my English...

"Stagflation," nasty.

> the fiat currency used not relevant.
>
>
> Phil scott

--
Regards, Curly
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
13 Days More of George Walker Bush Plundering the Economy
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

== 5 of 16 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 7 2009 1:38 pm
From: F. George McDuffee

On Wed, 7 Jan 2009 13:15:58 -0500, "Ed Huntress"
<huntres23@optonline.net> wrote:

>
><EskWIRED@spamblock.panix.com> wrote in message
>news:gk2ntk$ih9$2@reader1.panix.com...
>> In misc.survivalism Curly Surmudgeon <CurlySurmudgeon@live.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I wonder if it's possible to simultaneously suffer both deflation and
>>> inflation?
>>
>> Winston says Yes.
>
>Winston be wrong. You can have inflation and a contracting economy
>(stagflation), or deflation and a contracting economy (recession), but you
>can't have aggregate inflation and aggregate deflation at the same time.
-------------
Under normal conditions this would be an oxymoron like "dry
water."

But much depends on the "money of account." If you have two
currencies circulating at the same time in an economy, it would
indeed be possible to have a deflation with one and an inflation
with the other, even if these have the same nominal
name/denomination such as "dollars."

This appears to be the case in current situation.

In terms of actual FRB greenback dollars, there does appear to be
at least a slight deflation (which may well get worse) again
proving that in a downturn "cash is king," but a very
considerable inflation for the virtual dollars or "spondulicks,"
in that many more "spondulicks" are now required to purchase the
same quantities of goods/services, ==>when they can be exchanged
at all.<==

This is by no means unusual, and appears to what happened in the
1929 depression, except the majority of spondulicks hyper
inflated to the point of worthlessness, which was compounded by
the error of attempting to balance the budget by the Hoover
administration, further reducing the amount of money in
circulation, both real and spondulicks. Of course this resulted
in even more economic contraction and deflation, very similar to
bleeding a patient that has a hemorrhage.

Even where the currencies are specie (are, or are backed by
metal), this can occur. for example the "bimetallism" of William
Jennings Bryan, where the silver backed dollar was the spondulick
and the gold backed dollar was the "real" thing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bimetallism
http://www.micheloud.com/FXM/MH/Bimetalintro.htm

Having multiple denominations of currency in circulation, as is
currently the case in the international economy and many
countries, does not appear to be a serious problem, as long as
these are not allowed to have the same name and not commingled on
the balance sheets as the same unit, as has repeatedly occurred
with the US dollar and US spondulick.

May your IRAs and 401Ks be filled with US dollars and not
spondulicks this holiday season.

Unka' George [George McDuffee]
-------------------------------------------
He that will not apply new remedies,
must expect new evils:
for Time is the greatest innovator: and
if Time, of course, alter things to the worse,
and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better,
what shall be the end?

Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman.
Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).

== 6 of 16 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 7 2009 1:42 pm
From: wfhabicher@hotmail.com

On Jan 7, 4:31 pm, Too_Many_Tools <too_many_to...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Jan 7, 2:58 pm, phil scott <p...@philscott.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jan 7, 10:38 am, "Ed Huntress" <huntre...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
> > > "CanopyCo" <Junk74...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> > >news:d09a199d-ee1c-4fb0-95c4-2ea1e5e7c567@s9g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> > > What I don't get is how can they give 75% off and not loose money?
>
> > > They can't. But they would lose more if it winds up as unsold inventory.
> > > They're clearing their inventory, which most retailers have to do from time
> > > to time -- at least, the ones that want to stay in business.
>
> > > The counterexample is the old hardware store that keeps inventory forever.
> > > The last one I know of around here went broke 15 years ago.
>
> > > >Did they mark it up 100% in the first place?
>
> > > Markup, markon...don't get us confused. <g> They more than double the price
> > > they paid for it.
>
> > > Clothing in big retailers is marked up around 60% or so. That means that
> > > they pay $4 and sell it for $10. Jewelry is around 70%. And so on.
>
> > > >Maybe they will start charging a fair mark up instead of trying to
> > > >burn us every time.
>
> > > Those are the "fair" markups. At those rates, they just make a profit.
>
> > > BTW, when I was marketing machine tools, our typical markup was 55%.
>
> > > --
> > > Ed Huntress
>
> > brick and motar retail is going to be taking larger and larger hits as
> > the same goods can be sold on line with
> > a fraction of the storage costs... and in the case or 'order to suit'
> > on line, almost no storage costs.
>
> > This will put serious pressure on commcl real estate owners.. as its
> > potential renters can no longer afford the rents.
>
> > for the nation to recover that real estate will have to become part
> > of the manufacturing cycle...imo.
>
> > already we are seeing that in depressed home price markets, as empty
> > homes are rented or taken over by squatters and used to
> > make crack cocaine, speed, angel dust, pink pimps, or to grow
> > majijanna. I have no earthly idea what can be done with all of this
> > ludicrously over built retail space...especially as fully half of our
> > work force retires over the next 8 years and begin dropping deader
> > than hell shortly there after (80 million folk who will not give a
> > damn where the walmart is)
>
> > Phil scott- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Phil makes a very good point about the aging demographics.
>
> This recession/depression could not have come at a worse time for the
> Baby Boomers.
>
> Are you ready for Mom and Dad to move into your house?...or join you
> under your selected bridge?
>
> I am waiting to see what happens when the Government defaults...and
> suddenly all those SS checks are worth the paper they are printed on.
>
> TMT

The prospects appear grim indeed... for those who followed the herd
and did not heed the most fundamental guidelines learned as a child.

At the current rate of increasing mark-down I expect to be paid to
take the stuff off the shelf:-))

Wolfgang

== 7 of 16 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 7 2009 2:05 pm
From: terryc

On Wed, 07 Jan 2009 07:51:38 -0800, Too_Many_Tools wrote:
>
> After sales, will shoppers pay full price again?

Are the items that you are buying on SALE, really the same items you buy
at other times?

My second job after leaving high school was a summmer job as a
storeperson for Woolworths. Main duty was "to clean up the store room"
which I proceeded to do. Major activity was put all the "same" stuff
together. Two months down the tracks, one of the old girls asked if
someone had explained how Woolworths worked?. Nope.

She then went onto explain that Woolworths had three lines; regular,
seasonal and SALE. Yep, the shoes you purchase on sale were not the same
shoes that you purchased normally. Different stock and defnitely not the
same quality.

I've since found that lots of business work the same way.

It is also modern business technique to have SALES. It is something that
accountants advise their clients to do (must be a tax lurk in it
somewhere).

== 8 of 16 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 7 2009 2:54 pm
From: "Ed Huntress"

"Too_Many_Tools" <too_many_tools@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:01cda7b0-f0f9-4f7f-b027-c96321c63f53@d42g2000prb.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 7, 2:58 pm, phil scott <p...@philscott.net> wrote:
> On Jan 7, 10:38 am, "Ed Huntress" <huntre...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "CanopyCo" <Junk74...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> >news:d09a199d-ee1c-4fb0-95c4-2ea1e5e7c567@s9g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> > What I don't get is how can they give 75% off and not loose money?
>
> > They can't. But they would lose more if it winds up as unsold inventory.
> > They're clearing their inventory, which most retailers have to do from
> > time
> > to time -- at least, the ones that want to stay in business.
>
> > The counterexample is the old hardware store that keeps inventory
> > forever.
> > The last one I know of around here went broke 15 years ago.
>
> > >Did they mark it up 100% in the first place?
>
> > Markup, markon...don't get us confused. <g> They more than double the
> > price
> > they paid for it.
>
> > Clothing in big retailers is marked up around 60% or so. That means that
> > they pay $4 and sell it for $10. Jewelry is around 70%. And so on.
>
> > >Maybe they will start charging a fair mark up instead of trying to
> > >burn us every time.
>
> > Those are the "fair" markups. At those rates, they just make a profit.
>
> > BTW, when I was marketing machine tools, our typical markup was 55%.
>
> > --
> > Ed Huntress
>
> brick and motar retail is going to be taking larger and larger hits as
> the same goods can be sold on line with
> a fraction of the storage costs... and in the case or 'order to suit'
> on line, almost no storage costs.
>
> This will put serious pressure on commcl real estate owners.. as its
> potential renters can no longer afford the rents.
>
> for the nation to recover that real estate will have to become part
> of the manufacturing cycle...imo.
>
> already we are seeing that in depressed home price markets, as empty
> homes are rented or taken over by squatters and used to
> make crack cocaine, speed, angel dust, pink pimps, or to grow
> majijanna. I have no earthly idea what can be done with all of this
> ludicrously over built retail space...especially as fully half of our
> work force retires over the next 8 years and begin dropping deader
> than hell shortly there after (80 million folk who will not give a
> damn where the walmart is)
>
> Phil scott- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

>Phil makes a very good point about the aging demographics.

>This recession/depression could not have come at a worse time for the
>Baby Boomers.

>Are you ready for Mom and Dad to move into your house?

I *am* Dad. <g>

>...or join you
>under your selected bridge?

Chicken Little, it's time for you to get real. Haven't you lived through a
recession before? How old are you, anyway?

>I am waiting to see what happens when the Government defaults...and
>suddenly all those SS checks are worth the paper they are printed on.

Tell us about the last time the government defaulted. And tell us why it
would default now.

--
Ed Huntress

== 9 of 16 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 7 2009 2:58 pm
From: "Ed Huntress"

"F. George McDuffee" <gmcduffee@mcduffee-associates.us> wrote in message
news:9dt9m41s0iihtcpphsl1u7vnefui4c6a9k@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 7 Jan 2009 13:15:58 -0500, "Ed Huntress"
> <huntres23@optonline.net> wrote:
>
>>
>><EskWIRED@spamblock.panix.com> wrote in message
>>news:gk2ntk$ih9$2@reader1.panix.com...
>>> In misc.survivalism Curly Surmudgeon <CurlySurmudgeon@live.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I wonder if it's possible to simultaneously suffer both deflation and
>>>> inflation?
>>>
>>> Winston says Yes.
>>
>>Winston be wrong. You can have inflation and a contracting economy
>>(stagflation), or deflation and a contracting economy (recession), but you
>>can't have aggregate inflation and aggregate deflation at the same time.
> -------------
> Under normal conditions this would be an oxymoron like "dry
> water."

It's the case under abnormal conditions, too.

We don't have two currencies. We have one.

>
> This appears to be the case in current situation.
>
> In terms of actual FRB greenback dollars, there does appear to be
> at least a slight deflation (which may well get worse) again
> proving that in a downturn "cash is king," but a very
> considerable inflation for the virtual dollars or "spondulicks,"
> in that many more "spondulicks" are now required to purchase the
> same quantities of goods/services, ==>when they can be exchanged
> at all.<==

Spondulicks are not currency.

>
> This is by no means unusual, and appears to what happened in the
> 1929 depression, except the majority of spondulicks hyper
> inflated to the point of worthlessness, which was compounded by
> the error of attempting to balance the budget by the Hoover
> administration, further reducing the amount of money in
> circulation, both real and spondulicks. Of course this resulted
> in even more economic contraction and deflation, very similar to
> bleeding a patient that has a hemorrhage.

We had one currency under Hoover, too.

>
> Even where the currencies are specie (are, or are backed by
> metal), this can occur. for example the "bimetallism" of William
> Jennings Bryan, where the silver backed dollar was the spondulick
> and the gold backed dollar was the "real" thing.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bimetallism
> http://www.micheloud.com/FXM/MH/Bimetalintro.htm

We don't have a bimetal currency. It's a fiat currency.

>
> Having multiple denominations of currency in circulation, as is
> currently the case in the international economy and many
> countries, does not appear to be a serious problem, as long as
> these are not allowed to have the same name and not commingled on
> the balance sheets as the same unit, as has repeatedly occurred
> with the US dollar and US spondulick.

There are no spondulicks.

>
> May your IRAs and 401Ks be filled with US dollars and not
> spondulicks this holiday season.
>
>
> Unka' George [George McDuffee]

George, there is only one US currency. It's the same currency no matter
where you have it.

--
Ed Huntress

== 10 of 16 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 7 2009 3:54 pm
From: "Ed Huntress"

"phil scott" <phil@philscott.net> wrote in message
news:c0e21387-a792-4cc6-a7ec-8e6983dbabb6@w24g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 7, 10:38 am, "Ed Huntress" <huntre...@optonline.net> wrote:
> "CanopyCo" <Junk74...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> news:d09a199d-ee1c-4fb0-95c4-2ea1e5e7c567@s9g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> What I don't get is how can they give 75% off and not loose money?
>
> They can't. But they would lose more if it winds up as unsold inventory.
> They're clearing their inventory, which most retailers have to do from
> time
> to time -- at least, the ones that want to stay in business.
>
> The counterexample is the old hardware store that keeps inventory forever.
> The last one I know of around here went broke 15 years ago.
>
> >Did they mark it up 100% in the first place?
>
> Markup, markon...don't get us confused. <g> They more than double the
> price
> they paid for it.
>
> Clothing in big retailers is marked up around 60% or so. That means that
> they pay $4 and sell it for $10. Jewelry is around 70%. And so on.
>
> >Maybe they will start charging a fair mark up instead of trying to
> >burn us every time.
>
> Those are the "fair" markups. At those rates, they just make a profit.
>
> BTW, when I was marketing machine tools, our typical markup was 55%.
>
> --
> Ed Huntress

>brick and motar retail is going to be taking larger and larger hits as
>the same goods can be sold on line with
>a fraction of the storage costs... and in the case or 'order to suit'
>on line, almost no storage costs.

That's been going on for some years now, and the ones taking the worst hits
appear to be specialty retailers who crossed regional boundaries because of
their narrowly marketed special products or services.

>This will put serious pressure on commcl real estate owners.. as its
>potential renters can no longer afford the rents.

The forces that have kept chain retailers (mall dwellers) in business
probably haven't changed. A lot of mall space (435,000 sq. ft.) has been
lost to bankrupcies and there will be more, but malls themselves aren't
likely to collapse because of current economic factors. As always, retail
will evolve over time, but short-term ups and downs don't seem to have much
effect.

> for the nation to recover that real estate will have to become part
> of the manufacturing cycle...imo.

It isn't clear to me what you're saying here.

>already we are seeing that in depressed home price markets, as empty
>homes are rented or taken over by squatters and used to
>make crack cocaine, speed, angel dust, pink pimps, or to grow
>majijanna. I have no earthly idea what can be done with all of this
>ludicrously over built retail space...especially as fully half of our
>work force retires over the next 8 years and begin dropping deader
>than hell shortly there after (80 million folk who will not give a
>damn where the walmart is)

>Phil scott

Most people who follow the construction trends and housing market think the
curves will cross sometime in late 2009 or 2010. At that point, the
*national* housing market will bottom out, because the overhang will be
drawn down. That's based on a projection that assumes current low rates of
construction (which looks like a safe bet) and unemployment that bottoms at
8% (a median, but somewhat hopeful bet). It's still not time to buy a house
if you can avoid it.

Commercial real estate is in some trouble and it's expected to get worse.
Mall unoccupancy rates are now 7.1% and rising, and it can take 24 months
after an economic upturn for retail space leasing to recover. So that will
be a slow and hard go.

Where you live can really shape your impression of what is happening
generally. If you live in a rapidly growing area, where there was a lot of
local overbuilding, it looks like hell. Where I live, in a mature town with
practically no new construction, prices never dropped at all. Our house
prices are slightly higher than they were two years ago. Commercial
properties, consequently, have held up well.

The regional differences are very large. National averages actually don't
look unrecoverable, but some regions won't be able to overcome the downturn.
Most probably will, as they always do in a recession.

--
Ed Huntress

== 11 of 16 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 7 2009 3:56 pm
From: "Ed Huntress"

"Ed Huntress" <huntres23@optonline.net> wrote in message news:...
>
> The forces that have kept chain retailers (mall dwellers) in business
> probably haven't changed. A lot of mall space (435,000 sq. ft.) has been
> lost to bankrupcies and there will be more, but malls themselves aren't
> likely to collapse because of current economic factors.

Whoops, I dropped something here. That loss is just for Simon Properties,
the largest of the Big 7 mall owners.

--
Ed Huntress

== 12 of 16 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 7 2009 4:20 pm
From: Winston

EskWIRED@spamblock.panix.com wrote:
> In misc.survivalism Curly Surmudgeon <CurlySurmudgeon@live.com> wrote:
>
>> I wonder if it's possible to simultaneously suffer both deflation and
>> inflation?
>
> Winston says Yes.

Who?

--Winston

== 13 of 16 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 7 2009 4:31 pm
From: F. George McDuffee

On Wed, 7 Jan 2009 17:58:40 -0500, "Ed Huntress"
<huntres23@optonline.net> wrote:

>> May your IRAs and 401Ks be filled with US dollars and not
>> spondulicks this holiday season.
>>
>>
>> Unka' George [George McDuffee]
>
>George, there is only one US currency. It's the same currency no matter
>where you have it.
>
>--
>Ed Huntress
-----------
Then why are the banks, brokerages, insurance companies, and
other financial institutions screaming like a stuck pig when they
must convert their bonds and other securities from spondulick
valuation to real dollar valuation, otherwise know as "mark to
market" under Sarbanes-Oxley?

This is analogous to the NPV calculations to determine what one
dollar to be received [or which may be received if things go
right] 3 years from now is worth today.

I would suggest that 100$ cash under my mattress is worth
considerably more than 100$ "invested" in GM stock or 2033 bonds,
particularly if the "investment" was made 6 months or a year ago.

Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman.
Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).

== 14 of 16 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 7 2009 4:31 pm
From: terryc

On Wed, 07 Jan 2009 13:31:15 -0800, Too_Many_Tools wrote:

> I am waiting to see what happens when the Government defaults...and
> suddenly all those SS checks are worth the paper they are printed on.

How is your government defaulting externally going to render their
cheques/checks invalid internally?

I'm told that the USA is a net food importer. with all your gear, you
should be able to set up as a manufacturer once the cheap shit from OS
disappears off the shelves.

== 15 of 16 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 7 2009 4:35 pm
From: john

F. George McDuffee wrote:

> On Wed, 7 Jan 2009 13:15:58 -0500, "Ed Huntress"
> <huntres23@optonline.net> wrote:
>
>
>><EskWIRED@spamblock.panix.com> wrote in message
>>news:gk2ntk$ih9$2@reader1.panix.com...
>>
>>>In misc.survivalism Curly Surmudgeon <CurlySurmudgeon@live.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>I wonder if it's possible to simultaneously suffer both deflation and
>>>>inflation?
>>>
>>>Winston says Yes.
>>
>>Winston be wrong. You can have inflation and a contracting economy
>>(stagflation), or deflation and a contracting economy (recession), but you
>>can't have aggregate inflation and aggregate deflation at the same time.
>
> -------------
> Under normal conditions this would be an oxymoron like "dry
> water."

dry steam, it can cut you in two and you won't even see it.

>
> But much depends on the "money of account." If you have two
> currencies circulating at the same time in an economy, it would
> indeed be possible to have a deflation with one and an inflation
> with the other, even if these have the same nominal
> name/denomination such as "dollars."
>
> This appears to be the case in current situation.
>
> In terms of actual FRB greenback dollars, there does appear to be
> at least a slight deflation (which may well get worse) again
> proving that in a downturn "cash is king," but a very
> considerable inflation for the virtual dollars or "spondulicks,"
> in that many more "spondulicks" are now required to purchase the
> same quantities of goods/services, ==>when they can be exchanged
> at all.<==
>
> This is by no means unusual, and appears to what happened in the
> 1929 depression, except the majority of spondulicks hyper
> inflated to the point of worthlessness, which was compounded by
> the error of attempting to balance the budget by the Hoover
> administration, further reducing the amount of money in
> circulation, both real and spondulicks. Of course this resulted
> in even more economic contraction and deflation, very similar to
> bleeding a patient that has a hemorrhage.
>
> Even where the currencies are specie (are, or are backed by
> metal), this can occur. for example the "bimetallism" of William
> Jennings Bryan, where the silver backed dollar was the spondulick
> and the gold backed dollar was the "real" thing.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bimetallism
> http://www.micheloud.com/FXM/MH/Bimetalintro.htm
>
> Having multiple denominations of currency in circulation, as is
> currently the case in the international economy and many
> countries, does not appear to be a serious problem, as long as
> these are not allowed to have the same name and not commingled on
> the balance sheets as the same unit, as has repeatedly occurred
> with the US dollar and US spondulick.
>
> May your IRAs and 401Ks be filled with US dollars and not
> spondulicks this holiday season.
>
>

There have been instances of both deflation and inflation with a
retracting ecomomy. The key is the real value of the money system,
would you take the money for payment of goods or services. A retracting
econamy with an inflating dollar occurred in Germany after the first
World War. A wheelbarrow of dollars to buy a loaf of bread, it can't
happen here. Once the public realizes the dollar has no real value but
"the good faith and credit" of the US goverment and merchants refuse to
take the dollar you have the basis for inflation.

In the collapse of the economy in 1929 the dollar was backed by gold and
it retained its value even though there were fewer in the hands of the
general public. If you had dollars in the depression you were king.
They were hard to make and you were lucky to have a job.

In an inflated dollar and a recession, trading will become the nature of
exchange of goods and services, incrasing in use as the public
conception of the worth of the dollar goes into the toilet. If you have
a million dollars and no one will take it for payment, you are broke.
Tangeable assets, food, shelter, clothing, water,fuel,
are what you need to stay alive. Hopefully things will never gat that
bad, but they could.

John

== 16 of 16 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 7 2009 4:48 pm
From: terryc

On Thu, 08 Jan 2009 00:31:08 +0000, terryc wrote:

> On Wed, 07 Jan 2009 13:31:15 -0800, Too_Many_Tools wrote:
>
>
>> I am waiting to see what happens when the Government defaults...and
>> suddenly all those SS checks are worth the paper they are printed on.
>
> How is your government defaulting externally going to render their
> cheques/checks invalid internally?
>
> I'm told that the USA is a net food importer.

woops, EXPORTER

> with all your gear, you
> should be able to set up as a manufacturer once the cheap shit from OS
> disappears off the shelves.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Sorry link is wrong in hammock message
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/df411d8ef22709ae?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 7 2009 1:10 pm
From: clams_casino

annechisholm77@gmail.com wrote:

>Should be http://bayhamocks.spam
>
>

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 7 2009 1:21 pm
From: MSfortune@mcpmail.com

clams_casino wrote:
> annechisholm77@gmail.com wrote:
>
> >Should be http://bayhamocks.spam
> >
Thanks so much because I thought it was http://gayhamhocks.com.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Handmade hammocks at wholesale prices
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/852851191742a42e?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 7 2009 1:26 pm
From: MSfortune@mcpmail.com

On Jan 7, 3:47 pm, annechishol...@gmail.com wrote:
> You can save a lot of money om really good quality hammocks athttp://bayhammocks.com.Theygive a 5 year warranty on most of their
> products and offer an excellent net hammock for $50. Made in Canada
> too - not a cheap one from offshore.

When I was a kid we used to break those Canadian hockey sticks like
toothpicks

==============================================================================
TOPIC: as seen on Oprah and 20/20
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/03ea73e3ae049002?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 7 2009 1:35 pm
From: MSfortune@mcpmail.com

On Jan 7, 6:55 am, George <geo...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> hernz.t...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Jan 7, 3:38 pm, em.bl...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > We are living in a world of spams!
>
> You did repost the *entire* spam..

Opps, he says, and goes away sheepishly.
Meanwhile, he's wondering to himself what it could hurt.
Poor Oprah must have her own private pizza boy who delivers late at
night after the personal trainer has left the building. The trainer
knows she is not gaining that extra 120# on a 900 cal/day diet, but he
is well paid for praising the beast. Call it job insurance.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: 98cnshoes
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/414ed7e317531153?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 7 2009 1:38 pm
From: MSfortune@mcpmail.com

hgif wrote:
> 98cnshoes Co.,Ltd is the WORLD'S LARGEST SUPPLIER OF FAMOUS BRAND'S
> GOODS.
> we are one of the leading company that wholesales and retail brand
> products,
> We clome to be in ectopmall.com, all of our products are
> exclusive(top
> quality),
> and we are an hoest and real companies offering such a wide variety
> of
> Famous Brand Goods inc:
> 1)Brand Shoes:Nike Shox,AirMax,AirJordan,nike air force one,nike
> dunk,nike
> kobe,nike james,Nike sandle shoes and other brand shoes inc
> Bape,Adidas,Puma,Gucci,
> Timberland Prada,Lv,4us,Richmond,Ice cream,Diesel,Chanel
> D&G,DSQUARED,etc.
> 2)Jeans of Diesel,Rock&Republic,Seven,red monkey,Evisu,lee,D&G,True
> religion,bape,antik,
> jack
> jones,armani,kepasa,apple,bbc,levi's,guess,cocobon go,only,replay,on
> line,MNG,von dutch
> and cocolulu.
> 3)Brand T-
> shirt :Polo,lacoste,burberry,boss,Tommy,BBC,Bape,Gucci,D
> &G,A&F,Versach,marlbolo.
> 4)brand handbag with LV,
> Chanel,Gucci,Fendi,Chole,hermes,Dior,coach,balenci aga.
> we also sell world brand watches and caps and ipod nano.All our
> products are in best quality with lowest price.
>
N wen wee get dollar wee by spel check.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: USENET USE EXPLODES
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/0064c37729751b0a?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 7 2009 1:57 pm
From: "catalpa"

"Cheapo Groovo" <ccsj@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.23ce974c62232c3a989a09@news.wowway.com...
> Story folows
>
> Giganews, the largest gateway to Usenet, or the newsgroups, has reported
> "unprecedented growth" in the last year. The newsgroups are one of the
> oldest mediums of the Internet, with an existence dating back to the
> late 1970s. Over time, the newsgroups have evolved from a bulletin board
> type messaging system to one of the premier avenues for file-sharing.
> Users of this network will often times argue of its overwhelming
> supremacy over rival BitTorrent.
>

The "unprecedented growth" seen by Giganews is because the complete moron NY
AG Andrew Cuomo forced every ISP doing business in NY to dump Usenet service
because a handful of binary groups contained kiddie porn. Every sicko
pervert still gets their kiddie porn from paid Usenet providers and the rest
of us now have to pay or use free servers for even text alt groups.

The bottom line is that the complete moron NY AG Andrew Cuomo has done
nothing about kiddie porn on Usenet, but has screwed over millions of
regular Usenet users.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Save on Phone Calls
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/81e9507772219fb7?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 7 2009 2:52 pm
From: SMS

clams_casino wrote:
> Cheapo Groovo wrote:
>
>> I'm using the MagicJack and Net10.
>> Last year my my phone bills ran over $350, this year they should be
>> under $150.
>> ====================================================================
>>
>>
>>
>
> I'm switching to Tracfone.

PagePlus is a much cheaper alternative to prepaid, with better coverage
than Tracfone.

See "http://prepaiduswireless.com/".

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Anyone else seeing mystery phone numbers on Embarq long distance bill?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/5143a3a3f5a603f2?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 7 2009 3:15 pm
From: s2000hondas2000@gmail.com

On Jan 7, 2:15 pm, "Rod Speed" <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote:
> s2000hondas2...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Jan 7, 1:03 am, "Rod Speed" <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> s2000hondas2...@gmail.com wrote
>
> >>> Rod Speed <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote
> >>>> Only fools/dinosaurs use checks anymore.
> >>> DOT only takes checks, no cash, no cc.
>
> >> Only fools/dinosaurs let them get away with that.
>
> >> You elected those who 'run' operations like that, fuckwit.
> > And? It's not costing me anything.
>
> You have always been, and always will be, completely irrelevant, fuckwit.

And yet you keep replying to my posts,. Piss off, wanker

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 7 2009 4:21 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

s2000hondas2000@gmail.com wrote:
> On Jan 7, 2:15 pm, "Rod Speed" <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote:
>> s2000hondas2...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Jan 7, 1:03 am, "Rod Speed" <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> s2000hondas2...@gmail.com wrote
>>
>>>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote
>>>>>> Only fools/dinosaurs use checks anymore.
>>>>> DOT only takes checks, no cash, no cc.
>>
>>>> Only fools/dinosaurs let them get away with that.
>>
>>>> You elected those who 'run' operations like that, fuckwit.
>>> And? It's not costing me anything.
>>
>> You have always been, and always will be, completely irrelevant,
>> fuckwit.

> And yet you keep replying to my posts,.

To keep rubbing your stupid nose in that basic, fuckwit.

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Wednesday, January 7, 2009

misc.consumers.frugal-living - 25 new messages in 8 topics - digest

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