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* A/C working properly? Cost -> lower temp? - 15 messages, 4 authors
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==============================================================================
TOPIC: A/C working properly? Cost -> lower temp?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/6c37471a9403c0a2?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 15 ==
Date: Sat, Jul 7 2007 9:36 am
From: carie_r@mail.com
On Jul 6, 8:18 pm, clams casino <PeterGrif...@drunkin-clam.com> wrote:
> HeyBub wrote:
> >cari...@mail.com wrote:
>
> >>It's 90 deg. outside, humidity is 37%. The A/C is set to 80 deg. The
> >>temp in the apartment is at 83 deg, and hasn't gone below that. The A/
> >>C has been running non-stop for hours. The temp out of the vents is
> >>colder than the air in the apartment, but not a lot colder. (I don't
> >>have a thermometer.)
>
> >>Maintenance fixed the A/C only a month ago when it completely quit
> >>working. Our electric bill that month was $320 for a 800 sq ft
> >>apartment.
>
> >>Maintenance is coming tomorrow. How do I make sure they fix the unit
> >>right, or make the landlord replace it if it won't work properly? The
> >>electric bill is outragous.
>
> >You really need a thermometer. The output of a properly-functioning A/C
> >should be in the neighborhood of 20 degrees less than the room's ambient
> >air.
>
> >Cost varies dramatically depending on your location and the cost per KWH.
> >For example, I'm in Houston (same latitude as Cairo) and my electric bill
> >(for 1500 sq ft), keeping a temp of 72 degrees, was less than yours.
>
> Second the use of thermometer. It's the best test.
>
> As mentioned above, if working correctly, the output should be about
> 20F lower than the input (room temp).
I just posted a description of what maintenance didn't do as a reponse
to my original post.
== 2 of 15 ==
Date: Sat, Jul 7 2007 9:37 am
From: carie_r@mail.com
On Jul 6, 9:54 pm, udarrell <anonymo...@anonymous.com> wrote:
> cari...@mail.com wrote:
> >On Jul 6, 7:24 pm, cari...@mail.com wrote:
>
> >>It's 90 deg. outside, humidity is 37%. The A/C is set to 80 deg. The
> >>temp in the apartment is at 83 deg, and hasn't gone below that. The A/
> >>C has been running non-stop for hours. The temp out of the vents is
> >>colder than the air in the apartment, but not a lot colder. (I don't
> >>have a thermometer.)
>
> >>Maintenance fixed the A/C only a month ago when it completely quit
> >>working. Our electric bill that month was $320 for a 800 sq ft
> >>apartment.
>
> >>Maintenance is coming tomorrow. How do I make sure they fix the unit
> >>right, or make the landlord replace it if it won't work properly? The
> >>electric bill is outragous.
>
> >>The unit doesn't show a manufacturing date, and I can't find the model
> >>no. on the manufacturer's website. Here's what the stickers say:
> >>Goodman Manufacturing Co, 1501 Seamist Dr,
> >>Houston, TX 77008
> >>Model No. AW30-05C
> >>Part No. 20203-23
> >>Regrig 22
> >>Design PSIG 150
> >>Heater Amps 208/240V
> >>Motor 1PH 60HZ 3.5 Amps 1/3 HP
> >>Single Circuit 17.3/20.0
> >>Min Circuit Ampicity 26/29
> >>Max Overcurrent Protection 30/30
> >>UL Listed - G0587770080
>
> >>Also, once the unit works properly, how much more does it cost to keep
> >>the apartment at 76 as opposed to 80 (above conditions)?
>
> >>Thanks
>
> >I think this numbers above are for the heater... Here's the data from
> >the big fan thing outside:
> >Goodman Manufacturing Co.
> >Model No. CPKJ24-1A
> >Operating volts 197-253
> >208/230
> >Min circuit amps 15.3
> >Compressor RLA 11.5 LRA 60.0
> >Fan Motor FLA 0.9 HP 1/6
> >Part No. 14930-177
>
> That is a 2-Ton condenser for a mere 800-sq.ft. in a dry climate, it
> should handle that heatload with ease!
> If the interior of your home has a low humidity, a mere 90-F outdoors is
> not a heavy load on that system - when it is operating properly.
> A room temperature of 76-F should not be difficult to achieve with a
> very moderate electric usage.
>
> I cool over 800-Sq.Ft in an old 1930's home with a lot of windows with a
> mere Half-Ton window unit. Your unit is rated at 4 Times the BTUH and
> mine will pull the temperature down to 76-F with outdoor Heat Index at
> 104-F.http://www.udarrell.com/airconditioner_current_temperature_btuh_chart...
>
> Check my pages & use a thermometer to get all the needed readings.
> Post the data. There may be some useful clues in that test data.
> Do the outdoor condenser Temp-Split, it can also be helpful. - udarrell
>
> --
> WISDOM PRINCIPLE DIRECTED EMPOWERMENT COMMUNICATIONS -
> THE REAL POLITICAL ISSUES and WISDOM BASED PEOPLE EMPOWERMENT
>
> http://www.udarrell.com/
>
> http://www.udarrell.com/my_pages2.htm
> (My Airconditioning Links, Hunting Shooting, Angus Cattle, etc.)
>
> http://www.udarrell.com/principled_adjudication_disputes_administrati...
>
> http://www.udarrell.com/recognizing_real_enemies.html
>
> http://jesuschristsavior.net/Beatitudes.html
>
> http://www.antiwar.com/***
>
> Reality Is Not An Easy Thing To Be Confronted With, or to Accept!
I just posted a description of what maintenance didn't do as a reponse
to my original post.
== 3 of 15 ==
Date: Sat, Jul 7 2007 9:41 am
From: carie_r@mail.com
On Jul 7, 3:13 am, mm <NOPSAMmm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 06 Jul 2007 19:55:23 -0700, cari...@mail.com wrote:
> >On Jul 6, 8:05 pm, "Noon-Air" <Noon-...@comcast.net> wrote:
> >> <cari...@mail.com> wrote in message
> >...
>
> >> Hire a *competent*, licensed, bonded, insured, professionally trained HVAC
> >> technician, instead of depending on some flunkie handiman that couldn't make
> >> it doing anything else.
>
> >What specifically do I ask him tomorrow? (Types of HVAC
>
> Ask him what the problem is, and how long it will take to fix it.
>
> Since he doesn't work for you, he may not tell you, but if you are
> nice, and not the least bit snotty, he may well tell you.
>
> Maybe ask him if it's worth repairing or not, although that is not his
> decision and he may be much less willing to speculate. OTOH, if he
> knows it's a 50 dollar problem, he may be wiling to speculate. But
> you have to be even nicer to get answers to hard questions.
> (sometimes even when you yourself are paying).
>
> >certifications?) He is being sent by the landlord, which I don't pay
> >for.
I just posted a description of what maintenance didn't do as a reponse
to my original post.
== 4 of 15 ==
Date: Sat, Jul 7 2007 4:41 pm
From: BobK207
On Jul 7, 9:27 am, cari...@mail.com wrote:
> On Jul 6, 7:24 pm, cari...@mail.com wrote:
>
> > It's 90 deg. outside, humidity is 37%. The A/C is set to 80 deg. The
> > temp in the apartment is at 83 deg, and hasn't gone below that. The A/
> > C has been running non-stop for hours. The temp out of the vents is
> > colder than the air in the apartment, but not a lot colder. (I don't
> > have a thermometer.)
>
> > Maintenance fixed the A/C only a month ago when it completely quit
> > working. Our electric bill that month was $320 for a 800 sq ft
> > apartment.
>
> > Maintenance is coming tomorrow. How do I make sure they fix the unit
> > right, or make the landlord replace it if it won't work properly? The
> > electric bill is outragous.
>
> Maintenance came today. He hooked an electric probe in two places, and
> in two minutes he said "it's fine." He hadn't checked the output
> temperature. I asked him to do that. (The A/C was off before he came,
> as it wasn't working right, so it's only been running for a couple
> minutes.) He went back to his van and got a thermometer (laser,
> interesting). The output temperature was 70 deg, and the house was 82
> deg. I said it should be 20 deg. "Why do you think it should be 20 deg
> different?" he says. I told him that's what I found on the internet.
> He checked more wires with his probe for another 5 minutes, then
> checked the temperature again. It now said 64 deg (18 deg different).
> He said it had to run for a while to get to that temp. (Recall, he
> just asked why I thought is should be 20 deg.) I explained the
> problem of it not cooling down below 83 deg in 7 hours, and never
> having an electric bill like we just had in the year and a half we'd
> already been here. He didn't have anything to say, and didn't check
> anything else. He never looked at the outside part of the unit. I
> asked if he had a contractor HVAC license as he was leaving. He said
> yes. I said I'd come down with him and write the number down. When I
> got to his van he said I'm not giving you my contractors number, the
> landlord has it. I said I need to keep proper records because the
> cooling bill is outragous, and the A/C is not cooling the apartment.
> He wouldn't give it to me. I said well then I'll write down your plate
> number and write the state about it.
>
> (Also, he said the previous problem las month was a broken relay.)
>
> Unfortunately, the law doesn't require him to have a license. I just
> found the following on the net:
> G.S. 87-21 (c) To Whom Article Applies. - The provisions of this
> Article shall apply to all persons, firms, or corporations who engage
> in, or attempt to engage in, the business of plumbing, heating, or
> fire sprinkler contracting, or any combination thereof as defined in
> this Article. The provisions of this Article shall not apply to those
> who make minor repairs or minor replacements to an already installed
> system of plumbing or heating, but shall apply to those who make
> repairs, replacements, or modifications to an already installed fire
> sprinkler system.
I can see your attitude & problem solving skills are really moving
that ball forward. :)
quoting law / code ain't going to get your apt cooled off
must really suck to be you.........hope it's not too hot today for
you :)
== 5 of 15 ==
Date: Sat, Jul 7 2007 9:41 am
From: carie_r@mail.com
On Jul 7, 6:07 am, mm <NOPSAMmm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 01:18:00 -0700, cari...@mail.com wrote:
> >On Jul 7, 3:13 am, mm <NOPSAMmm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> >> On Fri, 06 Jul 2007 19:55:23 -0700, cari...@mail.com wrote:
> >> >On Jul 6, 8:05 pm, "Noon-Air" <Noon-...@comcast.net> wrote:
> >> >> <cari...@mail.com> wrote in message
> >> >...
>
> >> >> Hire a *competent*, licensed, bonded, insured, professionally trained HVAC
> >> >> technician, instead of depending on some flunkie handiman that couldn't make
> >> >> it doing anything else.
>
> >> >What specifically do I ask him tomorrow? (Types of HVAC
>
> >> Ask him what the problem is, and how long it will take to fix it.
>
> >> Since he doesn't work for you, he may not tell you, but if you are
> >> nice, and not the least bit snotty, he may well tell you.
>
> >> Maybe ask him if it's worth repairing or not, although that is not his
> >> decision and he may be much less willing to speculate. OTOH, if he
> >> knows it's a 50 dollar problem, he may be wiling to speculate. But
> >> you have to be even nicer to get answers to hard questions.
> >> (sometimes even when you yourself are paying).
>
> >> >certifications?)
>
> BTW, in practice, I don't think the guy's certifications matter. I
> guess that's why I skipped this part before. He's the guy the
> landlord or the AC contractor chose to send. If I were the AC
> contractor, I'd want to hire someone with certification**, and if he
> is going to recharge the system, I gather he must have certification,
> but one can know just as much without certification as with, and the
> important thing is that he diagnose the problem correctly. I don't
> have much AC experience but I"ve been misdiagosed over the years by 4
> medical doctors with certification, 2 of them specialists, so
> certification doesn't impress me anymore.
>
> **although if I had someone I knew knew AC, and he didn't have cert,
> but was cheaper to hire, and he wasn't going to be the only tech, I'd
> hire him too. He can diagnose and do other repairs, and if it needs
> recharging, I'll send the certified guy.
>
> >> >He is being sent by the landlord, which I don't pay
> >> >for.
>
> >The landlord is required to keep the A/C working properly.
>
> Within a reasonable time, of learning it's not working properly. I
> think that is the law in all US states, unless the lease says
> something different, which it most likely doesn't. NYC and many
> places have more specific laws about providing heat, but I think not
> about providing AC.
>
> > Are you
> >suggesting that underhanded behavior is so common as to be practically
> >expected?
>
> I didn't suggest anything underhanded at all, on the part of the
> repairman or the landlord. What words are you referring to where you
> think I did?
>
> It's often hard to get a good answer out of a repairman, whether you
> are paying the bill or someone else is, and I'm not quite sure why**,
> but I don't think there is anything underhanded about it, except in a
> few cases that I don't think apply to you. They don't apply to you
> because he's not working for you, he works for the landlord. They
> probably don't apply to the landlord either, because all but the
> smallest landlords are a source of repeat business for contractors.
>
> **Probably IMO the biggest reason is, if he's not the boss of the
> repair company, he doesn't want to make decisions that his employer
> has the power and right to make. He doesn't want to get caught in the
> middle between the customer and his boss, so he tells his boss what
> the situation is, and the boss deals with the customer. In this case,
> with a landlord/tenant, even if the repairman is the boss of his own
> company, he won't want to get caught between his "employer", the
> landlord who hires him, and the tenant. But this is not underhanded.
> It's totally reasonable. And the consequences when someone does get
> caught in the middle are often more than enough to keep him from ever
> letting it happen again.
>
> Pretty much the only way out of this, afaict, for the customer is to
> seem like a regular guy who won't make a stink if the boss later
> contradicts the employee, or the landlord contradicts the contractor,
> because a regular guy understands that the boss is the boss, and the
> employee can't actually make committments. Once one gives that
> impression, he has to actually live up to it, or he, or she, is a
> scoundrel and dishonorable.
>
> I"m not talking about accepting shoddy work. I'm talking about asking
> the guy who comes to your house what the problem is, and how long it
> will take to fix it, and whether it is worth repairing it or not, and
> then if and when the boss or the landlord gives one different answers,
> saying, "Well the guy who was here says yada yada which contradicts
> you." One shouldn't say that.
>
> Unless it is a literal life and death matter, and I can't imagine how
> that could be, one shouldn't do that. It doesn't matter what the guy
> tells you when he's there. It only matters that the AC gets fixed,
> and nothing the repair man SAYS to you has any effect on that.
>
> If the guy tells you something and the boss or landlord tells you
> something else, one should just suck it up and not get the guy in
> trouble. If you get him in trouble -- even if he doesn't get in
> trouble, but he knows a customer quoted him when the boss said
> something else -- he'll never tell another customer a thing.
>
> You may never know for sure who is right. Them's the breaks. Maybe
> the techician made a mistake, and somehow the boss knows it without
> even seeing the jobsite. Maybe the boss or landlord knows something
> the repair guy doesn't know. Maybe the landlord plans to replace the
> whole system in a year or two**, but doesn't want to say that or the
> tenants will hold him to it, even if he doesn't have as much money as
> he thinks he will (like if one or two apartments are unexpectedly
> vacant for a while) It's not at all necessary for either to be lying
> or underhanded for them to say different things.
>
> **Maybe the landlord plans to sell the building in a year or two and
> isn't willing to do all the repairs he should. I'm not saying every
> landlord does everything he should or that every repairman always does
> everything right. But I have no reason to think and didn't suggest
> that there was anything underhanded in this case.
I just posted a description of what maintenance didn't do as a reponse
to my original post.
== 6 of 15 ==
Date: Sat, Jul 7 2007 4:42 pm
From: BobK207
On Jul 7, 9:41 am, cari...@mail.com wrote:
> On Jul 7, 3:13 am, mm <NOPSAMmm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Fri, 06 Jul 2007 19:55:23 -0700, cari...@mail.com wrote:
> > >On Jul 6, 8:05 pm, "Noon-Air" <Noon-...@comcast.net> wrote:
> > >> <cari...@mail.com> wrote in message
> > >...
>
> > >> Hire a *competent*, licensed, bonded, insured, professionally trained HVAC
> > >> technician, instead of depending on some flunkie handiman that couldn't make
> > >> it doing anything else.
>
> > >What specifically do I ask him tomorrow? (Types of HVAC
>
> > Ask him what the problem is, and how long it will take to fix it.
>
> > Since he doesn't work for you, he may not tell you, but if you are
> > nice, and not the least bit snotty, he may well tell you.
>
> > Maybe ask him if it's worth repairing or not, although that is not his
> > decision and he may be much less willing to speculate. OTOH, if he
> > knows it's a 50 dollar problem, he may be wiling to speculate. But
> > you have to be even nicer to get answers to hard questions.
> > (sometimes even when you yourself are paying).
>
> > >certifications?) He is being sent by the landlord, which I don't pay
> > >for.
>
> I just posted a description of what maintenance didn't do as a reponse
> to my original post.
why are you now posting multiple replies?
new to this whole thing,, huh?
== 7 of 15 ==
Date: Sat, Jul 7 2007 9:44 am
From: carie_r@mail.com
On Jul 7, 1:44 am, Gordon <g...@alltomyself.com> wrote:
> Here are few things that need to be checked.
>
> 1)Outside coil should be hosed off at least once a year.
> If you have access to a hose bib and a hoes you can
> do this yourself.
>
> 2) Air filter should be replaced monthly.
>
> 3) There may be a freon leak. Maintenance can top it off.
>
> cari...@mail.com wrote in news:1183764250.640399.227540
> @n2g2000hse.googlegroups.com:
>
> > It's 90 deg. outside, humidity is 37%. The A/C is set to 80 deg. The
> > temp in the apartment is at 83 deg, and hasn't gone below that. The A/
> > C has been running non-stop for hours. The temp out of the vents is
> > colder than the air in the apartment, but not a lot colder. (I don't
> > have a thermometer.)
>
> > Maintenance fixed the A/C only a month ago when it completely quit
> > working. Our electric bill that month was $320 for a 800 sq ft
> > apartment.
>
> > Maintenance is coming tomorrow. How do I make sure they fix the unit
> > right,
>
> Ask them what the problem was and what they did to fix it.
>
> > Thanks
I just posted a description of what maintenance didn't do as a reponse
to my original post.
== 8 of 15 ==
Date: Sat, Jul 7 2007 9:45 am
From: carie_r@mail.com
On Jul 7, 12:41 pm, BobK207 <rkaza...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jul 7, 9:27 am, cari...@mail.com wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jul 6, 7:24 pm, cari...@mail.com wrote:
>
> > > It's 90 deg. outside, humidity is 37%. The A/C is set to 80 deg. The
> > > temp in the apartment is at 83 deg, and hasn't gone below that. The A/
> > > C has been running non-stop for hours. The temp out of the vents is
> > > colder than the air in the apartment, but not a lot colder. (I don't
> > > have a thermometer.)
>
> > > Maintenance fixed the A/C only a month ago when it completely quit
> > > working. Our electric bill that month was $320 for a 800 sq ft
> > > apartment.
>
> > > Maintenance is coming tomorrow. How do I make sure they fix the unit
> > > right, or make the landlord replace it if it won't work properly? The
> > > electric bill is outragous.
>
> > Maintenance came today. He hooked an electric probe in two places, and
> > in two minutes he said "it's fine." He hadn't checked the output
> > temperature. I asked him to do that. (The A/C was off before he came,
> > as it wasn't working right, so it's only been running for a couple
> > minutes.) He went back to his van and got a thermometer (laser,
> > interesting). The output temperature was 70 deg, and the house was 82
> > deg. I said it should be 20 deg. "Why do you think it should be 20 deg
> > different?" he says. I told him that's what I found on the internet.
> > He checked more wires with his probe for another 5 minutes, then
> > checked the temperature again. It now said 64 deg (18 deg different).
> > He said it had to run for a while to get to that temp. (Recall, he
> > just asked why I thought is should be 20 deg.) I explained the
> > problem of it not cooling down below 83 deg in 7 hours, and never
> > having an electric bill like we just had in the year and a half we'd
> > already been here. He didn't have anything to say, and didn't check
> > anything else. He never looked at the outside part of the unit. I
> > asked if he had a contractor HVAC license as he was leaving. He said
> > yes. I said I'd come down with him and write the number down. When I
> > got to his van he said I'm not giving you my contractors number, the
> > landlord has it. I said I need to keep proper records because the
> > cooling bill is outragous, and the A/C is not cooling the apartment.
> > He wouldn't give it to me. I said well then I'll write down your plate
> > number and write the state about it.
>
> > (Also, he said the previous problem las month was a broken relay.)
>
> > Unfortunately, the law doesn't require him to have a license. I just
> > found the following on the net:
> > G.S. 87-21 (c) To Whom Article Applies. - The provisions of this
> > Article shall apply to all persons, firms, or corporations who engage
> > in, or attempt to engage in, the business of plumbing, heating, or
> > fire sprinkler contracting, or any combination thereof as defined in
> > this Article. The provisions of this Article shall not apply to those
> > who make minor repairs or minor replacements to an already installed
> > system of plumbing or heating, but shall apply to those who make
> > repairs, replacements, or modifications to an already installed fire
> > sprinkler system.
>
> I can see your attitude & problem solving skills are really moving
> that ball forward. :)
>
> quoting law / code ain't going to get your apt cooled off
>
> must really suck to be you.........hope it's not too hot today for
> you :)
I asked if he had a license as he was leaving. Can you read?
The guy was obviously pretty clueless about A/C.
I'll be writing a detailed letter to the landlord, and the state
licensing board (they may have some input even though he apparently
doesn' have to know what he's doing).
== 9 of 15 ==
Date: Sat, Jul 7 2007 11:45 am
From:
"BobK207" <rkazanjy@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1183826561.136321.147780@z28g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
> On Jul 7, 9:41 am, cari...@mail.com wrote:
> > On Jul 7, 3:13 am, mm <NOPSAMmm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > > On Fri, 06 Jul 2007 19:55:23 -0700, cari...@mail.com wrote:
> > > >On Jul 6, 8:05 pm, "Noon-Air" <Noon-...@comcast.net> wrote:
> > > >> <cari...@mail.com> wrote in message
> > > >...
> >
> > > >> Hire a *competent*, licensed, bonded, insured, professionally
trained HVAC
> > > >> technician, instead of depending on some flunkie handiman that
couldn't make
> > > >> it doing anything else.
> >
> > > >What specifically do I ask him tomorrow? (Types of HVAC
> >
> > > Ask him what the problem is, and how long it will take to fix it.
> >
> > > Since he doesn't work for you, he may not tell you, but if you are
> > > nice, and not the least bit snotty, he may well tell you.
> >
> > > Maybe ask him if it's worth repairing or not, although that is not his
> > > decision and he may be much less willing to speculate. OTOH, if he
> > > knows it's a 50 dollar problem, he may be wiling to speculate. But
> > > you have to be even nicer to get answers to hard questions.
> > > (sometimes even when you yourself are paying).
> >
> > > >certifications?) He is being sent by the landlord, which I don't pay
> > > >for.
> >
> > I just posted a description of what maintenance didn't do as a reponse
> > to my original post.
>
> why are you now posting multiple replies?
>
> new to this whole thing,, huh?
They might be, but at least they're smart enough to realize that a $320
electric bill isn't normal.
== 10 of 15 ==
Date: Sat, Jul 7 2007 4:55 pm
From: BobK207
On Jul 7, 9:45 am, cari...@mail.com wrote:
> On Jul 7, 12:41 pm, BobK207 <rkaza...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jul 7, 9:27 am, cari...@mail.com wrote:
>
> > > On Jul 6, 7:24 pm, cari...@mail.com wrote:
>
> > > > It's 90 deg. outside, humidity is 37%. The A/C is set to 80 deg. The
> > > > temp in the apartment is at 83 deg, and hasn't gone below that. The A/
> > > > C has been running non-stop for hours. The temp out of the vents is
> > > > colder than the air in the apartment, but not a lot colder. (I don't
> > > > have a thermometer.)
>
> > > > Maintenance fixed the A/C only a month ago when it completely quit
> > > > working. Our electric bill that month was $320 for a 800 sq ft
> > > > apartment.
>
> > > > Maintenance is coming tomorrow. How do I make sure they fix the unit
> > > > right, or make the landlord replace it if it won't work properly? The
> > > > electric bill is outragous.
>
> > > Maintenance came today. He hooked an electric probe in two places, and
> > > in two minutes he said "it's fine." He hadn't checked the output
> > > temperature. I asked him to do that. (The A/C was off before he came,
> > > as it wasn't working right, so it's only been running for a couple
> > > minutes.) He went back to his van and got a thermometer (laser,
> > > interesting). The output temperature was 70 deg, and the house was 82
> > > deg. I said it should be 20 deg. "Why do you think it should be 20 deg
> > > different?" he says. I told him that's what I found on the internet.
> > > He checked more wires with his probe for another 5 minutes, then
> > > checked the temperature again. It now said 64 deg (18 deg different).
> > > He said it had to run for a while to get to that temp. (Recall, he
> > > just asked why I thought is should be 20 deg.) I explained the
> > > problem of it not cooling down below 83 deg in 7 hours, and never
> > > having an electric bill like we just had in the year and a half we'd
> > > already been here. He didn't have anything to say, and didn't check
> > > anything else. He never looked at the outside part of the unit. I
> > > asked if he had a contractor HVAC license as he was leaving. He said
> > > yes. I said I'd come down with him and write the number down. When I
> > > got to his van he said I'm not giving you my contractors number, the
> > > landlord has it. I said I need to keep proper records because the
> > > cooling bill is outragous, and the A/C is not cooling the apartment.
> > > He wouldn't give it to me. I said well then I'll write down your plate
> > > number and write the state about it.
>
> > > (Also, he said the previous problem las month was a broken relay.)
>
> > > Unfortunately, the law doesn't require him to have a license. I just
> > > found the following on the net:
> > > G.S. 87-21 (c) To Whom Article Applies. - The provisions of this
> > > Article shall apply to all persons, firms, or corporations who engage
> > > in, or attempt to engage in, the business of plumbing, heating, or
> > > fire sprinkler contracting, or any combination thereof as defined in
> > > this Article. The provisions of this Article shall not apply to those
> > > who make minor repairs or minor replacements to an already installed
> > > system of plumbing or heating, but shall apply to those who make
> > > repairs, replacements, or modifications to an already installed fire
> > > sprinkler system.
>
> > I can see your attitude & problem solving skills are really moving
> > that ball forward. :)
>
> > quoting law / code ain't going to get your apt cooled off
>
> > must really suck to be you.........hope it's not too hot today for
> > you :)
>
> I asked if he had a license as he was leaving. Can you read?
>
> The guy was obviously pretty clueless about A/C.
>
> I'll be writing a detailed letter to the landlord, and the state
> licensing board (they may have some input even though he apparently
> doesn' have to know what he's doing).
Apt getting any cooler?
== 11 of 15 ==
Date: Sat, Jul 7 2007 5:01 pm
From: BobK207
On Jul 7, 9:45 am, <kjpro @ usenet.com> wrote:
> "BobK207" <rkaza...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1183826561.136321.147780@z28g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > On Jul 7, 9:41 am, cari...@mail.com wrote:
> > > On Jul 7, 3:13 am, mm <NOPSAMmm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Fri, 06 Jul 2007 19:55:23 -0700, cari...@mail.com wrote:
> > > > >On Jul 6, 8:05 pm, "Noon-Air" <Noon-...@comcast.net> wrote:
> > > > >> <cari...@mail.com> wrote in message
> > > > >...
>
> > > > >> Hire a *competent*, licensed, bonded, insured, professionally
> trained HVAC
> > > > >> technician, instead of depending on some flunkie handiman that
> couldn't make
> > > > >> it doing anything else.
>
> > > > >What specifically do I ask him tomorrow? (Types of HVAC
>
> > > > Ask him what the problem is, and how long it will take to fix it.
>
> > > > Since he doesn't work for you, he may not tell you, but if you are
> > > > nice, and not the least bit snotty, he may well tell you.
>
> > > > Maybe ask him if it's worth repairing or not, although that is not his
> > > > decision and he may be much less willing to speculate. OTOH, if he
> > > > knows it's a 50 dollar problem, he may be wiling to speculate. But
> > > > you have to be even nicer to get answers to hard questions.
> > > > (sometimes even when you yourself are paying).
>
> > > > >certifications?) He is being sent by the landlord, which I don't pay
> > > > >for.
>
> > > I just posted a description of what maintenance didn't do as a reponse
> > > to my original post.
>
> > why are you now posting multiple replies?
>
> > new to this whole thing,, huh?
>
> They might be, but at least they're smart enough to realize that a $320
> electric bill isn't normal.
The fact that "a $320 electric bill isn't normal" for AC in a 800 sq
ft is pretty much of a "duh"
It was clear early on that her AC isn't working
== 12 of 15 ==
Date: Sat, Jul 7 2007 12:20 pm
From:
"BobK207" <rkazanjy@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1183827683.384057.146910@m37g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
> On Jul 7, 9:45 am, <kjpro @ usenet.com> wrote:
> > "BobK207" <rkaza...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >
> > news:1183826561.136321.147780@z28g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
> >
> >
> >
> > > On Jul 7, 9:41 am, cari...@mail.com wrote:
> > > > On Jul 7, 3:13 am, mm <NOPSAMmm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > > On Fri, 06 Jul 2007 19:55:23 -0700, cari...@mail.com wrote:
> > > > > >On Jul 6, 8:05 pm, "Noon-Air" <Noon-...@comcast.net> wrote:
> > > > > >> <cari...@mail.com> wrote in message
> > > > > >...
> >
> > > > > >> Hire a *competent*, licensed, bonded, insured, professionally
> > trained HVAC
> > > > > >> technician, instead of depending on some flunkie handiman that
> > couldn't make
> > > > > >> it doing anything else.
> >
> > > > > >What specifically do I ask him tomorrow? (Types of HVAC
> >
> > > > > Ask him what the problem is, and how long it will take to fix it.
> >
> > > > > Since he doesn't work for you, he may not tell you, but if you are
> > > > > nice, and not the least bit snotty, he may well tell you.
> >
> > > > > Maybe ask him if it's worth repairing or not, although that is not
his
> > > > > decision and he may be much less willing to speculate. OTOH, if
he
> > > > > knows it's a 50 dollar problem, he may be wiling to speculate.
But
> > > > > you have to be even nicer to get answers to hard questions.
> > > > > (sometimes even when you yourself are paying).
> >
> > > > > >certifications?) He is being sent by the landlord, which I don't
pay
> > > > > >for.
> >
> > > > I just posted a description of what maintenance didn't do as a
reponse
> > > > to my original post.
> >
> > > why are you now posting multiple replies?
> >
> > > new to this whole thing,, huh?
> >
> > They might be, but at least they're smart enough to realize that a $320
> > electric bill isn't normal.
>
> The fact that "a $320 electric bill isn't normal" for AC in a 800 sq
> ft is pretty much of a "duh"
>
> It was clear early on that her AC isn't working
For you and others to be harping on "how many hours has it been running" is
pretty much mute, DUH!!!!
You still don't get it.
== 13 of 15 ==
Date: Sat, Jul 7 2007 1:41 pm
From: Jeff Wisnia
carie_r@mail.com wrote:
> On Jul 7, 12:41 pm, BobK207 <rkaza...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Jul 7, 9:27 am, cari...@mail.com wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>On Jul 6, 7:24 pm, cari...@mail.com wrote:
>>
>>>>It's 90 deg. outside, humidity is 37%. The A/C is set to 80 deg. The
>>>>temp in the apartment is at 83 deg, and hasn't gone below that. The A/
>>>>C has been running non-stop for hours. The temp out of the vents is
>>>>colder than the air in the apartment, but not a lot colder. (I don't
>>>>have a thermometer.)
>>
>>>>Maintenance fixed the A/C only a month ago when it completely quit
>>>>working. Our electric bill that month was $320 for a 800 sq ft
>>>>apartment.
>>
>>>>Maintenance is coming tomorrow. How do I make sure they fix the unit
>>>>right, or make the landlord replace it if it won't work properly? The
>>>>electric bill is outragous.
>>
>>>Maintenance came today. He hooked an electric probe in two places, and
>>>in two minutes he said "it's fine." He hadn't checked the output
>>>temperature. I asked him to do that. (The A/C was off before he came,
>>>as it wasn't working right, so it's only been running for a couple
>>>minutes.) He went back to his van and got a thermometer (laser,
>>>interesting). The output temperature was 70 deg, and the house was 82
>>>deg. I said it should be 20 deg. "Why do you think it should be 20 deg
>>>different?" he says. I told him that's what I found on the internet.
>>>He checked more wires with his probe for another 5 minutes, then
>>>checked the temperature again. It now said 64 deg (18 deg different).
>>>He said it had to run for a while to get to that temp. (Recall, he
>>>just asked why I thought is should be 20 deg.) I explained the
>>>problem of it not cooling down below 83 deg in 7 hours, and never
>>>having an electric bill like we just had in the year and a half we'd
>>>already been here. He didn't have anything to say, and didn't check
>>>anything else. He never looked at the outside part of the unit. I
>>>asked if he had a contractor HVAC license as he was leaving. He said
>>>yes. I said I'd come down with him and write the number down. When I
>>>got to his van he said I'm not giving you my contractors number, the
>>>landlord has it. I said I need to keep proper records because the
>>>cooling bill is outragous, and the A/C is not cooling the apartment.
>>>He wouldn't give it to me. I said well then I'll write down your plate
>>>number and write the state about it.
>>
>>>(Also, he said the previous problem las month was a broken relay.)
>>
>>>Unfortunately, the law doesn't require him to have a license. I just
>>>found the following on the net:
>>>G.S. 87-21 (c) To Whom Article Applies. - The provisions of this
>>>Article shall apply to all persons, firms, or corporations who engage
>>>in, or attempt to engage in, the business of plumbing, heating, or
>>>fire sprinkler contracting, or any combination thereof as defined in
>>>this Article. The provisions of this Article shall not apply to those
>>>who make minor repairs or minor replacements to an already installed
>>>system of plumbing or heating, but shall apply to those who make
>>>repairs, replacements, or modifications to an already installed fire
>>>sprinkler system.
>>
>>I can see your attitude & problem solving skills are really moving
>>that ball forward. :)
>>
>>quoting law / code ain't going to get your apt cooled off
>>
>>must really suck to be you.........hope it's not too hot today for
>>you :)
>
>
> I asked if he had a license as he was leaving. Can you read?
>
> The guy was obviously pretty clueless about A/C.
>
> I'll be writing a detailed letter to the landlord, and the state
> licensing board (they may have some input even though he apparently
> doesn' have to know what he's doing).
>
Y'know Carie, you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.
My curious mind wants to know....Are you married or single?
Jeff
--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
The speed of light is 1.98*10^14 fathoms per fortnight.
== 14 of 15 ==
Date: Sat, Jul 7 2007 1:12 pm
From:
"Jeff Wisnia" <jwisnia@conversent.net> wrote in message
news:oYedndwCB7zsTRLbnZ2dnUVZ_gCdnZ2d@comcast.com...
> Y'know Carie, you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.
>
> My curious mind wants to know....Are you married or single?
Hell, how about a picture? :-)
== 15 of 15 ==
Date: Sat, Jul 7 2007 7:17 pm
From: BobK207
On Jul 7, 10:20 am, <kjpro @ usenet.com> wrote:
> "BobK207" <rkaza...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1183827683.384057.146910@m37g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > On Jul 7, 9:45 am, <kjpro @ usenet.com> wrote:
> > > "BobK207" <rkaza...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> > >news:1183826561.136321.147780@z28g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
>
> > > > On Jul 7, 9:41 am, cari...@mail.com wrote:
> > > > > On Jul 7, 3:13 am, mm <NOPSAMmm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > On Fri, 06 Jul 2007 19:55:23 -0700, cari...@mail.com wrote:
> > > > > > >On Jul 6, 8:05 pm, "Noon-Air" <Noon-...@comcast.net> wrote:
> > > > > > >> <cari...@mail.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > >...
>
> > > > > > >> Hire a *competent*, licensed, bonded, insured, professionally
> > > trained HVAC
> > > > > > >> technician, instead of depending on some flunkie handiman that
> > > couldn't make
> > > > > > >> it doing anything else.
>
> > > > > > >What specifically do I ask him tomorrow? (Types of HVAC
>
> > > > > > Ask him what the problem is, and how long it will take to fix it.
>
> > > > > > Since he doesn't work for you, he may not tell you, but if you are
> > > > > > nice, and not the least bit snotty, he may well tell you.
>
> > > > > > Maybe ask him if it's worth repairing or not, although that is not
> his
> > > > > > decision and he may be much less willing to speculate. OTOH, if
> he
> > > > > > knows it's a 50 dollar problem, he may be wiling to speculate.
> But
> > > > > > you have to be even nicer to get answers to hard questions.
> > > > > > (sometimes even when you yourself are paying).
>
> > > > > > >certifications?) He is being sent by the landlord, which I don't
> pay
> > > > > > >for.
>
> > > > > I just posted a description of what maintenance didn't do as a
> reponse
> > > > > to my original post.
>
> > > > why are you now posting multiple replies?
>
> > > > new to this whole thing,, huh?
>
> > > They might be, but at least they're smart enough to realize that a $320
> > > electric bill isn't normal.
>
> > The fact that "a $320 electric bill isn't normal" for AC in a 800 sq
> > ft is pretty much of a "duh"
>
> > It was clear early on that her AC isn't working
>
> For you and others to be harping on "how many hours has it been running" is
> pretty much mute, DUH!!!!
>
> You still don't get it.
btw that would moot, not mute :)
I get it just fine, IMO you're missing the point of "tangential"
comments in some of the posts..............
>>>>>For you and others to be harping on "how many hours has it been running" <<<
We were merely harping on the fashion in which the original
information was conveyed....poorly.
when she originally talked about running for "hours" it was unclear
as to whether she was being accurate (that the unit had in fact been
running for 7 hours) or exaggerating, like many non-technical people
do.
I've had a tenant tell me .......... "the heater's been running for a
long time & the house is still cold"
well the truth of the matter was 28F outside, 50F "soak" temp & the
heater had been running for not quite 2 hours
nothing wrong with the furnace, unrealistic expectation on the part of
the "operator"
its the details that matter..........
==============================================================================
TOPIC: Even better non-spam source for framed art
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/b59b5b3b9022298e?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Sat, Jul 7 2007 4:40 pm
From: gheston@hiwaay.net (Gary Heston)
In article <468fa6bc$0$30603$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>,
Phil <nice@try.to> wrote:
>I found a whole bunch of $5-$10 decorative art reproductions at Big Lots,
>some with really ugly frames, some with the type of frame that doesn't show
>(the painting is stretched over the frame), some with good frames.
I've found tons of it at estate auctions, usually several pieces for
$5-$10. Quite frequently, there's at least one in the stack worth more
than that.
Gary
--
Gary Heston gheston@hiwaay.net
http://www.thebreastcancersite.com/
Yoko Onos' former driver tried to extort $2M from her, threating to
"release embarassing recordings...". What, he has a copy of her album?
== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Sat, Jul 7 2007 1:19 pm
From: "Phil"
Gary Heston wrote:
> In article <468fa6bc$0$30603$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>,
> Phil <nice@try.to> wrote:
>>I found a whole bunch of $5-$10 decorative art reproductions at Big
>>Lots, some with really ugly frames, some with the type of frame that
>>doesn't show (the painting is stretched over the frame), some with
>>good frames.
>
> I've found tons of it at estate auctions, usually several pieces for
> $5-$10. Quite frequently, there's at least one in the stack worth more
> than that.
Do you mean investment-grade pieces, or purely decorative bits? Although
I've never been to one, my impression of them is that they would be packed
with horrendous giant frames and boring subject matter. What are they
really like?
--
Phil
== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Sat, Jul 7 2007 6:57 pm
From: gheston@hiwaay.net (Gary Heston)
In article <468fcb34$0$31290$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>,
Phil <nice@try.to> wrote:
>Gary Heston wrote:
>> In article <468fa6bc$0$30603$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>,
>> Phil <nice@try.to> wrote:
>>>I found a whole bunch of $5-$10 decorative art reproductions at Big
>>>Lots, some with really ugly frames, some with the type of frame that
>>>doesn't show (the painting is stretched over the frame), some with
>>>good frames.
>> I've found tons of it at estate auctions, usually several pieces for
>> $5-$10. Quite frequently, there's at least one in the stack worth more
>> than that.
>Do you mean investment-grade pieces, or purely decorative bits? Although
>I've never been to one, my impression of them is that they would be packed
>with horrendous giant frames and boring subject matter. What are they
>really like?
One stack of pictures I bought contained three prints depicting French
nobility scenes; two of them are marked "1774" and the other is matches
them. They look to be hand colored, so I suspect they're original. I've
picked up a few Japanese prints and one embroidery on silk, plus two
watercolors on silk that I think are of value.
I have a leaf (page from a book) which dates to about 1849; it's the
petition of the people of New Mexico applying for statehood. I think
it came from a copy of the Federal Record or similar publication.
A print which depicts an antique map in a round frame; the print is
about 36" square, with the map covered with Latin writing. I finally
found out that the original of the map is hanging in a library in
Barcelona, Italy--it was drawn about 1409. The print even shows some
ancillary drawings on the wall around the map. If I could read Latin,
there are hundreds of lines of notes on it. The original map is about
twice the diameter as depicted in the print.
Along with the wheat there's some chaff; a couple of black velvet
cheap/quick landscapes, nondescript prints, amateur paintings, and
so on. Sometimes you have to buy a lot instead of an item to get what
you want. That how auctions are...
Estate sales are all unique; there's no telling what you'll find at one.
A sale for someone who lived in the same neighborhood for decades is more
likely to have nicer items, as would one in a wealthier neighborhood.
The best way to find good items is to go regularly; when you arrive, walk
around for a while and get a feel for the items--if you see things which
indicate the person had some taste (carved wood decorations instead of
injection molded plastic, antique wood furniture instead of vinyl chairs,
etc.) then look for framed items, or boxes of papers, or paintings to
examine more closely. If you see loads of cheap plastic stuff, or crummy
furniture, they probably weren't into collectible or investment-grade
items. This holds true for other collectibles items as well.
However, you can never tell what will turn up in an old box, suitcase,
or trunk. If the area you're in has houses with attics that were used
for storage (not the case where I am), there could be things left behind
by previous owners/residents. One of the early Antiques Roadshow episodes
had a woman bring in a hand-embossed 17th century Italian helment she
found in the attic after buying a house; they appraised it at $250,000.
I haven't gotten that lucky, yet.
Gary
--
Gary Heston gheston@hiwaay.net
http://www.thebreastcancersite.com/
Yoko Onos' former driver tried to extort $2M from her, threating to
"release embarassing recordings...". What, he has a copy of her album?
==============================================================================
TOPIC: fridge use power saving
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/2cc260293c68afaf?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Jul 7 2007 12:47 pm
From: nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu
throwitout <throwitout@dodgeit.com> wrote:
>> Beachcomber <inva...@notreal.none> wrote:
>> >If you are concerned about efficiency and you have a lot of free space
>> >in your fridge, you may want to fill it up with camping ice pack gels
>> >or even bottles of water, soft drinks, etc...
>>
>> Why on earth would that raise the efficiency?
>
>Because the compressor will then be running less often, but for longer
>periods. As well it will be less likely to come on after the door has
>been briefly open. Fridge compressors run more efficiently if run for
>longer intervals than shorter ones.
Each start takes about 0.3 Wh, worth 0.3/1000x0.1 = $0.00003, so 24
starts per day would cost about 26 cents per year. You might reduce
this to 13 cents per year by adding a lot of bottles, but more cold
surfaces inside the fridge mean more airflow and condensation when
the door is open, which is a lot more expensive.
Nick
== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Jul 7 2007 2:15 pm
From: Logan Shaw
nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu wrote:
> throwitout <throwitout@dodgeit.com> wrote:
>> Fridge compressors run more efficiently if run for
>> longer intervals than shorter ones.
> Each start takes about 0.3 Wh
Where does this number come from? Are you considering only the power
it takes to start up the motor, or are you also considering reduced
efficiency that the fridge might experience while reaching steady state
operation? I'm not saying I know that fridges do this[1], but many
systems behave this way (for example, cars run less efficiently while
they are warming up), and you would have to know whether fridges do
this in order to have something to base your number on.
- Logan
[1] Although it stands to reason -- my fridge has an electric fan
to blow air over the coil. During the time when the fan has
started running but the coil hasn't achieved its full temperature
difference with the ambient air, the fan is using the same
amount of electricity but accomplishing less. As is, come to
think of it, the motor for the compressor.
==============================================================================
TOPIC: How to Use the Internet
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/c346c93fa6f056f1?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Jul 7 2007 5:26 pm
From: et472@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Michael Black)
"dansoyke@webtv.net" (dansoyke@webtv.net) writes:
> clams casino wrote:
>> dansoyke@webtv.net wrote:
>>
>> >How to Use the Internet to Advertise, Promote and Market Your Business
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> Somehow, a spammer using webtv is not where I'd look for up-to-date advice.
>
> Does that mean if I used a yahoo email or google email account it
> would make my advice more up-to-date? Did you follow the link? Do you
> have any idea what this link is about?
>
If you're suggesting your URL is about not posting to Usenet, you've
failed already.
Because your post is the lure, and if it turns people away, then
that post has failed.
It is standard spammer technique to not say much in a message. Gee,
I dismiss posts if they have a URL and the poster can't say anything
literate in the post, it doesn't even matter whether it's spam or not.
These are discussion newsgroups, and if you can't add to the discussion,
then your URL has no relevance.
Michael
==============================================================================
TOPIC: Supreme Court reverses century-old ban on price fixing, inviting
mobster-like behavior from manufacturers.
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/4d8c8a3f5ef4e846?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Jul 7 2007 6:01 pm
From: don@manx.misty.com (Don Klipstein)
In article <1183743685.260625.105090@r34g2000hsd.googlegroups.com>, Larry
Bud wrote:
>On Jul 6, 1:33 pm, r...@vt.edu wrote:
>> In misc.consumers.frugal-living George <geo...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> > George Grapman wrote:
>> > > But is is hardly free enterprise to force them to sell at a certain
>> > > price.
>> > Sure it is. I am a manufacturer and decide to set a floor price. If you
>> > don't agree you don't buy from me.
>>
>> No, the manufacturer can set the price it wants to sell to the retailer,
>> but why should they set the price the retailer *must* sell to the
>> consumer.
>
>Why "should" they, or why should they be ALLOWED to? There's a
>difference.
>
>They should be allowed to because, with free enterprise, you should be
>allowed to conjure up whatever contract you want, regardless of how
>ridiculous it might seem to others. Whether or not someone agrees to
>that contract will depend on the free market.
Apparently a libertarian does not have a problem with someone telling me
what I can do with my property as long as that someone is not the
government.
- Don Klipstein (don@misty.com)
== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Jul 7 2007 7:17 pm
From: "SpammersDie"
"Don Klipstein" <don@manx.misty.com> wrote in message
news:slrnf8vl8l.r7t.don@manx.misty.com...
> In article <1183743685.260625.105090@r34g2000hsd.googlegroups.com>, Larry
> Bud wrote:
>>On Jul 6, 1:33 pm, r...@vt.edu wrote:
>>> In misc.consumers.frugal-living George <geo...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>> > George Grapman wrote:
>>> > > But is is hardly free enterprise to force them to sell at a
>>> > > certain
>>> > > price.
>>> > Sure it is. I am a manufacturer and decide to set a floor price. If
>>> > you
>>> > don't agree you don't buy from me.
>>>
>>> No, the manufacturer can set the price it wants to sell to the retailer,
>>> but why should they set the price the retailer *must* sell to the
>>> consumer.
>>
>>Why "should" they, or why should they be ALLOWED to? There's a
>>difference.
>>
>>They should be allowed to because, with free enterprise, you should be
>>allowed to conjure up whatever contract you want, regardless of how
>>ridiculous it might seem to others. Whether or not someone agrees to
>>that contract will depend on the free market.
>
> Apparently a libertarian does not have a problem with someone telling me
> what I can do with my property as long as that someone is not the
> government.
The price of your freedom to do as you please with your property is my
freedom to do as I please with my property.
Which, in this case, includes my freedom not to sell you my property unless
you sign a separate agreement not to resell said property below a floor
price.
You are, of course, free to seek an alternate supplier whose asking price
does not include that agreement. Free in the legal sense, anyway. There's no
guarantee that such a supplier will exist.
==============================================================================
TOPIC: Something I've discovered about regular tipping . . .
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/d23163da3767e684?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Jul 7 2007 12:00 pm
From: Shaun Eli
My local barber charges $15 and I routinely hand him $20 and walk
away. On a percentage basis I guess it's rather high but to me it's a
total of $5, not a huge amount even though it doesn't take all that
long to cut my hair.
But there are some people who just don't know whom to tip or not tip.
I had a girlfriend who gave a cab driver $10 for a $9.50 fare and
thought that was nice, until I explained that cab drivers in NYC
should be tipped as one would tip the wait staff in a restaurant. She
just didn't know until someone told her.
But 'tipping' a hotel clerk for a better room is a different issue--
it's really more of a bribe, because the better room you're getting
isn't a service provided by the clerk. It's a service taken from the
owner of the hotel. What would happen if a paying customer came along
and wanted that room but it was no longer available because the clerk
upgraded you because you paid cash to the clerk?
Shaun Eli
www.BrainChampagne.com
Brain Champagne: Clever Comedy for Smart Minds (sm)
==============================================================================
TOPIC: What is the rationale to price something as $9.99 instead of $10?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/ca438cb73666596e?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Jul 7 2007 2:08 pm
From: Logan Shaw
Usenet2007@THE-DOMAIN-IN.SIG wrote:
> In article
> <1183651519.158978.250660@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
> joe12sil@yahoo.com says...
>> What is the rationale to price something as $9.99 instead of $10?
> It is psychological. Many people have a poor attention span. So
> they see the dollar amount, and gloss over the ".99" part.
It isn't even just that people have a poor attention span. It's more
fundamental than that. Processing information takes time and effort.
It has a cost. It is not practical to always process all available
information. Therefore, the more processing required to get the true
picture, the less likely that everyone does it. If 25% of the people
take in only the dollar part and leave out the cents, then 25% of the
people think your product is roughly $1 cheaper. That is roughly
similar to selling in quantities as if it were priced it $0.25.
More fundamentally, they do it because it works. Pricing is not an
exact science, but many companies employ pricing managers who do the
math behind this stuff. Sometimes it is very elaborate math. Sometimes
it is based on fairly heavy-duty empirical studies.
- Logan
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